Energy Policy - Minister for Transport and Technical Services - Transcript - 11 June 2013

Environment Panel

Energy Policy Review hearing with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services

TUESDAY, 11th JUNE 2013

Panel:

Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (Vice Chairman) Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John

Mr. R. Levett (Advisor)

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services)

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services) Mr. J. Rogers (Chief Officer)

Mr. D. St. George (Manager, Transport Policy)

Mr. T. Dodd (Director of Transport)

[14:04]

Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman):

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to this afternoon's session of the Environment Scrutiny Panel, continuing our hearings on the Minister for Planning and Environment's draft Energy Plan Pathway 2050. Introduce ourselves, please: Deputy John Young, Chairman of the Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Welcome to you all and welcome to the members of the public. We are going to try and close this session by 3.00 p.m. because we have got 2 other hearings scheduled this afternoon. We will start getting down to the key issue of the Minister's plan, that he has set a target for reduction in the Island's carbon emissions which requires a 78 per cent reduction in carbon emissions from transportation services. Minister, the key question is do you consider that to be a deliverable target? Do you support it?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

That is aspirational. I think that is going to be very difficult to achieve that one, but we will get as close as we can. We have got the new bus fleets, which I believe are category Euro 5, which is very good, and other cars coming online that are very, very green. David, do you want to come in on that?

Manager, Transport Policy:

Yes, I think it hinges really on the types of vehicle that people use and we need to have policies in place that will encourage people to opt for lower emissions vehicles in the future.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So what are the action elements that you think that fall within your area of responsibility which would be a means of getting towards that reduction? Can you set out those action areas you think should be included in the strategy?

Manager, Transport Policy:

We are obviously working on the measures within the Sustainable Transport Policy, which concentrate on modal shift, getting less private car use. You are probably familiar with the package of measures that are being implemented as we speak, and as I say, the Energy paper is very much dependent on the types of vehicles people choose in the future. So there are policies in place which will encourage people to opt for less emitting vehicles. We have an eco permit system in place which provides half-price parking for people who have a car that emits less than 100 grams CO2 per kilometre. The States have a Vehicle Emissions Duty which needs to be monitored as regards its impact, because there is likely to be a case for ramping that up more to encourage people to opt for vehicles that fall within the lower band or bands which would be zero- rated. We have provided charging points for electric cars in our car parks. The current option for zero emissions vehicles are electric vehicles. That might change in future, but certainly at the moment electric vehicles are really the technology that is available, so the States have bought or leased a fleet of 10 electric vehicles themselves and we will be putting in measures to encourage more use of them within the Island.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think we have got at least 2 charging points in all of our multi-storey car parks now.

Manager, Transport Policy: That is correct, yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I ask how many ultra-low emissions vehicles (ULEVs) there are registered on the Island at the moment?

Manager, Transport Policy: I think it is about 43[1].

Deputy J.H. Young:

You did not mention anything that you were doing regarding existing vehicles. You mentioned the V.E.D. (Vehicle Emissions Duty), which deals with new vehicles coming in, but what measures are you planning or think would be necessary in order to encourage people using high-energy consumption vehicles at the moment to change?

Manager, Transport Policy:

As I say, the Sustainable Transport Policy is about modal shift. It is also about using your cars less, so we are working on encouraging people to use public transport, to walk and cycle more. We have got a package of measures, travel plans, so all the schools are rolling out travel plans. We are getting the private sector to do travel plans through the planning process. We are getting States departments to do travel plans. We have got various behavioural change programmes in place which get people to look at how they travel and get them to use their cars less.

Director of Transport:

There is a cycle challenge which has started this week and which we hope everyone's got a ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We hope you are going to sign up for that.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I have signed up for it. So what will be the relative contribution of that modal shift in the Sustainable Transport Plan to the very high target for transport emissions? What will be the contribution? Will it do it all or some of it, and what proportion?

Chief Officer:

I think it is just worth looking at the date which that target is aimed at, and the date is 2050. Now, we are talking of just short of 40 years from now, and if you go back 40 years and look at the mixture of transport vehicles and the emissions of vehicles 40 years ago to now and look at that moving forwards, this is an aspirational target which the world has got to achieve these targets, with the growth of population and the pressures on the environment. So it is going to be a suite of solutions. It is going for more fit for purpose vehicles, it is going for a better control of the existing vehicles, but the key thing for us is to promote ... the principle that we have tried to adopt through the Sustainable Transport Policy is you own whatever car you want, just do not use it as often, and that has been the way that we are taking this step change for the first 5 years of the strategy, to get people to change their behaviours before they start moving into changing their cars; 5 years or 10 years from now, the range of cars available for anybody buying a car will be very different, I believe, than what they are at the present time.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can I ask, you talk about measures to encourage people. What carrot and stick measures do you see necessary to achieve that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, we have got a new bus operator, and it has always been my wish to saturate the Island with buses which are Euro 5 category, very environmentally friendly, and it is hoped to get all the buses every 10 to 15 minutes, which I believe on the southern routes they are now achieving. So just encourage more and more people to use public transport so that unless anybody particularly needs a car for some reason or other, they do not necessarily have to buy one. They still have the option to have a car, but they do not have to have a car.

Director of Transport:

The other thing that departments try to do is not to pick winners, but to look at what is on the horizon and where that provides an environmental benefit to facilitate that technology. So, for instance, we have been across and we met Renault, spoke to them about their electric vehicles. Subsequent to that, we have arranged with the J.E.C. (Jersey Electric Company) to have power points to be put into the car parks, and as demand for that increases, then we will increase the number of power points provided as required.

Chief Officer:

In terms of leverage, we would like, in terms of the Sustainable Transport Policy, to increase the price of road fuel; we would like to increase the price of car parking; we would like ...

Director of Transport: For commuters.

Chief Officer:

For commuters, yes. We would like to offset some of the tax benefits for buying a bicycle, like they do in the U.K. (United Kingdom); we would like to replicate lots of the strategies that other countries adopt, but all of these cost money and have a significant effect on the Island's economy, so the levers we pull are quite small. For my Minister to increase car parking charges beyond a certain point means that he gets hung out to dry by the people of Jersey, and vice versa, if we put bus prices down too much, then we cannot afford to run the bus. So we have got to have real subtle mechanisms, but all of them lead to the fact that we are promoting transport which is not based on one person in a car and we are trying to protect vulnerable road users through the infrastructure changes we are trying to instigate as well.

Director of Transport:

I think it is fair to say, in common with a lot of the health campaigns that have been run recently across the nation, not just within Jersey, we are really utilising the tools of nudge, to nudge people into different types of behaviour, because ultimately this is about culture change rather than about regulation and legislation which strictly says: "You cannot have that, you cannot do this" because that seems to be at odds with the governments that people want now within both Jersey, U.K. and Europe. We need a bit of each, but it is getting that behavioural change. To start getting people on side to begin with is very important.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What about if the E.U. insists that Jersey-registered vehicles travelling away meet emissions standards? What are you going to do then?

Chief Officer:

Then we will have to.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

There will have to be some kind of certificate of roadworthiness for vehicles who leave the Island for the Continent or the U.K. and then that is the way we would have to go, if they insisted upon that. We are looking at certificates of roadworthiness for commercial vehicles at the moment. That is in the pipeline, and of course the P30s and buses et cetera we are checking anyway.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Would you agree, Minister, that since we are affected by E.U. regulation, given what you said, 2013 up to 2050, there must be a chance, a very strong likelihood, that that degree of regulation will become stronger from the E.U. which you will need to implement?

[14:15]

Would you agree that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I would not argue with that.

Director of Transport:

Also we do benefit from E.U. legislation in terms of what they require in terms of emissions for new vehicles being produced and sold to U.K., whether produced in the U.K./E.U.

Deputy J.H. Young:

We benefit from new technology, you mean?

Director of Transport:

Benefit from new technology, lower emissions.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They are all Euro standards, those.

Director of Transport:

Yes, so the emissions of cars that are sold into the E.U. make ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, so you could argue then that because we are on the receiving end of benefits coming from that new technology as a result of regulation that we should adopt that regulation here, it is consistent?

Chief Officer:

That is one possibility. I think what we are trying to say here is because of the E.U. legislation and the tax benefits and the various things in terms of personal tax, that drives better behaviours in terms of the CO2 emissions from a vehicle. You might have vehicles that are available with a CO2 limit of 100 grams or less. It is far more than we had ever envisaged sort of 5 years ago, so we are getting a benefit from the European legislation in changing the culture.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What you are describing, Minister, comes across - if you do not mind me saying so - as quite passive, softly-softly sort of strategy. Do you not think there is a case for a more interventionist policy to drive this change?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, it is happening, but it is just very, very slowly. I mean, certificates of roadworthiness, the garages are not geared up for it as yet, so that will take some time to implement, should that come in.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What do they need from Government to help them do that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, they need retooling and obviously they need authentication.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do you have a consultant group who work with the industry on these things?

Chief Officer:

We have met the industry in the past. It was a big thing about this when we looked at the Sustainable Transport Policy. There has just been something recently in the paper about M.O.T.s (Ministry of Transport tests) and what we have got to do - and I think the Minister for the Environment spoke about M.O.T.s recently - what we are trying to do is find pragmatic solutions for Jersey. Revolution and forcing people to do things tend to be politically very unpopular and then unpopular with the people of Jersey, so it is finding the right balance where it is a cultural change, which is where you get the biggest traction, as opposed to a sledgehammer Government ...

Deputy J.H. Young: Okay, thank you for that.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

But also encourage people to maintain their vehicles to the highest standards.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, 7.85 from the Sustainable Transport Policy is about the introduction of commercial vehicle operator licences by 2015. Are you on line to do that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That is a work in progress.

Director of Transport:

Yes, that is a work in progress. The Isle of Man are taking this forward at present and rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, we are really sort of waiting for the Isle of Man to report and then we will review where they have got to and then look at how that model can be applied to Jersey.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

What particular issues with commercial vehicles are they looking at? Is it emissions?

Director of Transport:

It is around vehicle operators, so it is your commercial operator, that you can get a quality assurance type scheme for the maintenance of those vehicles, so it will be a similar sort of thing in Jersey.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Your answer leads me to think that maybe we will not quite get there for 2015.

Director of Transport:

It is a work in progress and it is ... as we get closer today, we have to look and report in a bit more detail on the programme.

Deputy J.H. Young: Sorry, Constable.

The Connétable of St. John :

Emissions from the low emission vehicles, how can we at the moment be running around in electric vehicles when our electricity is all being generated from oil and therefore we are creating emissions to create electricity? Then we have the problem of getting rid of the batteries at the end of their life and there will be emissions, so how can you justify for the next 3 years or 2.5 years at least supporting a policy that is not a policy that we can support at this time because we are not getting our electricity from the French grid?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I believe the batteries are leased and not purchased, so the batteries would go back to the manufacturers. In regarding to generating on-Island, which obviously is a matter for J.E.C., I believe that is only temporary because they have lost one of the cables, but I think when Normandy 3 comes online, which is going to about 9 months' time, is it, then we will be back on the grid with ...

The Connétable of St. John :

You are talking about years away. We are not talking just a couple of months.

Chief Officer:

I think it is a very valid point. I think there has been a revolution in zero emission vehicles, and in the year 2000 we tested a Toyota RAV4 that was a fully electric vehicle, but that was a real prototype. These are from a manufacturer which are manufactured at the moment, so we are running basically a test with these vehicles. It is unfortunate that the J.E.C. have had problems with their supply from French nuclear and the fact that it is a low-carbon energy source, so you are absolutely right, but I do not think the 2 things long term are going to be interrelated because it is a short-term problem the J.E.C. has and it will be resolved. By then, we will have a far better understanding of how viable electric vehicles are, particularly for Jersey. I have driven one quite a bit and I think there are not many places that electric vehicles are as suitable as they are for this Island. We have I think really a perfect place, where lots of small journeys can be undertaken with a zero emission vehicle. I am not sure if that will be viable in mainland Europe or the U.K. quite so much, so Jersey is a great melting pot and test ground for these vehicles.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So when it comes to these ultra-low emissions vehicles, our target, Minister, is to have 10 per cent of cars registered with D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) by 2020, 10 per cent ultra-low emissions. This policy that is proposed here says that: "If necessary, we need to identify barriers and possible incentives to accelerate the take up." Is that something you think we should be doing now, given there are only 43[2] vehicles currently registered?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think there is a resistance at the moment, but as the Chief Officer has just said, anyone that has driven an electric car has been totally struck by how efficient they are and perfect for Jersey, with a circa 90-mile range, but the more people that come on line with them, and obviously with the manufacturing processes, will bring the cost down, which I think is putting people off at the moment. So maybe that is where we would go to get the costs down.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Is that not a chicken and egg situation?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It is like anything new. There is an initial resistance, then people get used to it and ...

Chief Officer:

In the U.K. there is a ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: An incentive.

Chief Officer:

... an incentive of £5,000 per vehicle at the moment, and we do not have that incentive here, but in the U.K. they have got incentives to buy bicycles as well for commuting. So just to provide incentives for electric cars, which is one possible solution, I think you have got to look at a whole suite of options in the sort of transport hierarchy and electric cars is one of them, but it is not the be all and end all.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You do not pay tax, it will be V.E.D. on an electric car.

Chief Officer:

You do not, no. The V.E.D. is banded on the environmental benefit, so it is the most, but electric cars are still, for price point, very expensive compared to a small petrol/diesel equivalent.

The Connétable of St. John :

We have got the Eco Active brochure here and it is a roughly £1 million a year goes into that fund. Why have your department not tied up with the Environment Department to get some of that funding so that you can bring the cost of these low energy vehicles down, low emission vehicles down and use some of that funding to try and put more vehicles out into the marketplace?

Chief Officer:

Because electric vehicles, if it is about insulating a low income family's home or providing insulation to pensioners, that is a higher priority for the States, and I think that is more benefit than giving someone an electric car with a subsidy. I think you have got to be very careful not to just pull out subsidies because that is the latest craze. We do nothing for cyclists over here, there is no incentive whatsoever; there is no incentive for motorcycles and scooters, which are far more efficient than cars. Cars have a footprint which is bigger than a motorcycle, as you know, because you ride a very efficient motorcycle, and so I think if you are going to do it, you do it as a suite of benefits. I do not think you can just steal from one policy and give it to another one.

The Connétable of St. John :

So therefore that is the type of question I shall be putting to the J.E.C. then, given they put the seed money into this in the first place.

Chief Officer:

Well, they put it into the place which they believed there was maximum benefit, which is to insulate homes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do you have an ongoing dialogue with the J.E.C. on this question on how you increase the take-up of electric vehicles? Sorry to interrupt.

Director of Transport:

I will not answer for, John, the Minister, but we have been over with J.E.C. to meet up with Renault, and these are some of the things that were included in those discussions. One of the views was of the car manufacturers that Jersey would benefit from the secondhand market, because as those vehicles became available in the U.K., for Jersey, you do not need to have a brand new battery, a second-generation battery or secondhand battery would function very well in Jersey, where there would be more range anxiety in the U.K. They felt that Jersey could benefit from part of that market.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Is there a secondhand market for these vehicles, domestic vehicles?

Director of Transport:

There is one sort of establishing itself, yes, as they go through their first owners.

Chief Officer:

Batteries, the most optimum period for the battery is the first 8 years of operation. After then, their efficiency diminishes and their ability to hold a charge diminishes, but only by about 20 per cent, leaving 80 per cent of the capacity there. That battery then is replaced as part of the lease schemes in the U.K. and Europe and it is something that potentially could come to us, because we do not need the full range.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Sounds like there is a market opportunity there for somebody.

Chief Officer: Potentially, yes.

Director of Transport:

There are companies that are interested in that and have spoken to the Island about it.

The Connétable of St. John :

Having had a large electric lawnmower to do several acres, the life of the batteries is 3 years, but there was no exchange scheme put in place, so I had to dispose of the batteries. So you are telling me now that this is ...

Director of Transport:

It is not for us to comment on because some of this is commercially sensitive, but there are people who are interested in those type of schemes as a commercial proposition.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, I just wanted to go back to the S.T.P. (Sustainable Transport Policy), Minister. It was written in 2010 and there are quite a number of comments in here about subsequent revisions and I just wanted to ask when you expect the first revision to be written of the S.T.P.

Manager, Transport Policy:

The S.T.P. set a very specific target of a 15 per cent reduction in peak-hour traffic by 2015, so I would anticipate that we will be producing a progress report this year, which will show that we are not really on track for the 15 per cent, but it is early days. We are very much in an enabling stage, but as we get closer to 2015, that will be the time to go back to the States and if we are not reaching that target, that will be the time for the States to consider whether they need to have firmer policies in place or whether we are going to achieve it.

Deputy J.H. Young:

This is a political question for the Minister: the strategy we have got clearly sets very ambitious targets. What I am hearing is that you have some policies in place which give encouragement and go in that direction, but I am not hearing that they are proactive policies that take the lead in driving achieving these targets. Do you accept that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think the States have wanted revisions of their own, and obviously we are trying to cut down on car usage et cetera, but everybody seems to want more and more car parks, and that is often brought forward by the States. The new police station, if and when that goes ahead, will have an extra floor of car parking, and likewise, we were told by the States to bring forward plans for Snow Hill car park, another level there.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So at the moment, the States is inconsistent in its decisions, that is what you are saying?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It could be said.

Chief Officer:

I think if you look at the history of sustainable transport policies getting through the States of Jersey, the 2010 one was the first one. How many times did we try and do it in the past?

Manager, Transport Policy:

Well, there has been 3 or 4 versions.

Chief Officer:

Yes, and each one is either criticised for being not ambitious enough or too ambitious, and that fine line to get through the political vagaries of getting a sustainable transport policy through was achieved in 2010. It is a balance and it is working against 50 years of pro-car promotion and ownership within Jersey, because Jersey has been car-centric for the last 50 years, and turning that tide is a real challenge.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You told us you would like to increase car park charges, but basically you cannot.

[14:30]

Would you, for example, reduce fares on commuter bus services down to such a low level to encourage that modal shift?

Chief Officer: No.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Would you consider doing that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That is a very fine balance.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You would not? You would rule it out?

Chief Officer:

Things cannot be free ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

No, I did not say free, I said low-level subsidies on commuters.

Chief Officer:

... because people do not respect things which are either heavily subsidised ... things should hopefully be able to wash their face and you just hide the problem long term. The balance between car parking charges and bus fares is an intricate balance which needs to change people's behaviour in positive ways without adding too much angst to the general public and the commuting public so that working in Jersey is too expensive. So it is a really fine balance.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But you spoke about things washing their face. Is it not right that you run the car parks at a loss and they are not washing their face now, are they?

Chief Officer:

We do not run the car parks at a loss.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You are saying we charge the economic prices?

Chief Officer:

No. I do not say that either.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Would you accept, Minister, that currently - and as borne out by the results of what is happening with the S.T.P. - the differential between the price of car parking and the price of travelling on public transport is not great enough to incentivise people to leave their cars at home?

Chief Officer:

I think that is correct.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I would not argue with that, but there is also the fact that there is enough car parking, but not where people want it. As has been said many times before, we have Pier Road. When I think on a daily basis, I think there are about 250 spare spaces, but people do not like to park there and that would be an excellent commuter car park.

Manager, Transport Policy:

Can I just add that when the Sustainable Transport Policy was approved, there was an amendment approved at the same time which was that we were not to increase the cost of motoring disproportionately until a viable alternative to private car use was in place for all, so we need to assess and determine what that viable alternative is.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But surely Liberty Bus is a viable alternative on the summer timetable?

Manager, Transport Policy:

I would argue that there is a comprehensive coverage of the bus service of the Island, but how the States would interpret that particular clause when it was approved ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Is it for the States? Surely it is for you, Minister, to say, is it not? You are the Minister with the power. You can just say: "This is it" surely.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I am not in power, I am in office. It is for the people of Jersey to have the power and I have to do as the States of Jersey tell me to do.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Really, Minister? Do you not take the lead in these matters?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

We can take a lead, but ultimately, as you can tell by the amendments to the S.T.P., if an amendment is brought and the States request that I do something, I have to do it.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It has been suggested in this energy policy, Minister, that a subsequent revision of the S.T.P. could include something like reduced commuting by car as a result of better land use planning and use of planning obligations to incentivise solutions. Do you know what the idea of those planning obligations to incentivise solutions are?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Yes, there are quite a few planning obligations, and if a small hamlet is built or whatever, then there is a planning obligation they provide money for a bus shelter for the residents in that area, and I think we just put out a press release, I think there is about 5 bus shelters ...

Director of Transport:

Yes, we have significantly increased the number of bus shelters that are provided on the Island to increase the attractiveness of the bus service and some of these have been funded by planning obligation agreements. Equally, some planning obligation agreements also fund additional bus routes for a number of years to seed the service to allow them to establish themselves. The bus service is becoming more comprehensive and we are probably getting closer to the point where there is a viable alternative.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Well, that sounds very interesting. Can I ask then, can you give us an example of that, because I was not aware that there had been a planning obligation agreement that funded new routes.

Manager, Transport Policy:

La Providence is the first one, La Providence in St. Peter 's Valley, because traffic was one of the issues that came up there when the planning application was being considered and the best mitigation that we put forward was subsidising bus services through that area and so they provided £120,000 to improve the peak hour bus service through St. Peter's Valley. Castle Quays development provided a similar amount, and the Esplanade Quarter first office building that was recently approved is also providing a 6-figure sum to support sustainable transport. So those proposals are ongoing and we are working with the Planning Department to take a more consistent approach as to how that will be applied. Each one at the moment ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is good news, because I can think of developments that do not get such an obligation. We will pass on that. Steve, Phil, do you want to carry on the vehicles or can we move on to other things?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, no, I just wanted to make the point that if we are committed to the Sustainable Transport Policy, Minister, how long can we go offering the carrot and when do we need to get the stick out?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I would always prefer to use the carrot than the stick, but it is working. As I say, the bus situation has improved dramatically with buses every 10 to 15 minutes on the southern routes and as I say, if people do not particularly want to use their cars, they do not have to, and that is the way we are moving now. Bus ridership is increasing and I am delighted the way things are going.

The Connétable of St. John :

So bus ridership across the Island, how much has it increased over the last year?

Director of Transport:

I do not have those figures with me, I am afraid.

The Connétable of St. John :

Off the top of your head, 4 per cent, 5 per cent, 3 per cent?

Director of Transport:

We would need to return with the graphs for that, I am afraid. I would not like to say something in this forum where it is recorded without having the actual data.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Plus we have a complete fleet now of double-decker buses. Liberty Bus has 6 double-decker buses and they are used very well; especially on the airport run, they are very well-used.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I have got, sorry, just one last one before we finish on this, Minister. Can I have your views on congestion charging, because there is a section in here, it is statement 14 that mentions in the S.T.P. by 2015, the reduction and the possible use of congestion controls. Do you believe in congestion charging for St. Helier ?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Do I believe in congestion charging? No.

Deputy J.H. Young: Why?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Because I think it is anti-social and people feel very penalised by it. That would discourage people from using specific routes or parking in certain areas. People have to get into town to deliver whatever from the many shops in town and if you listen to the Chamber of Commerce, they are always complaining that they are being obstructed left, right and centre, so I think we need to free up as much as we can and just keep the traffic moving. But if there was a congestion charge in St. Helier and people wanted to go from A to B, they would have to go right the way round the ring road, then that would put quite a huge burden on the ring road for St. Helier to start with.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I know it is not accepted yet, Minister, but it does say that you are going to work with the Minister for Planning and Environment: "To ensure that the congestion management target of 15 per cent is met, and if not, interventions will be required in order to achieve the target."

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So you obviously do not accept that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I want to obviously reduce congestion, but as I say, a congestion charge is not the way I would wish to go.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I would like to move away from transport on to other areas.

Director of Transport:

Sorry, just to be clear on that last point, the energy policy does not suggest in it a congestion charge. It talks about ...

The Deputy of St. Martin : Congestion management target.

Director of Transport:

Which is really to do with the other things we talked about and the modal shift in terms of incentivising people to use public transport, to use active travel, but there is no proposal in it for a congestion charging clause or anything like that.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think it is all to do with traffic management as opposed to ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

We know what you are saying.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is to do with congestion management and how you achieve it, yes, I accept that.

Deputy J.H. Young:

We know what you say there. Moving on to other areas, you are obviously the operator of the Energy from Waste (EfW) plant. Can you tell us, Minister, what your plans are to utilise the energy from that plant more effectively and if that is not happening now, what your proposals are to do so?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

The Energy from Waste plant does come under Transport and Technical Services. I did put forward an idea several years ago to pump spare hot water up to the nearby senior citizens' home, but it would be too expensive to retrofit. Had it all gone in at the same time, that would have been something else, and as we have mentioned earlier, the J.E.C. is generating on-Island, so they too have hot water coming from their plant, but that is only temporary. As soon as Normandy 3 comes on line, I envisage that the J.E.C. would shut down their on-Island generation and just use it for emergencies, but as I say, that will be a matter for the J.E.C.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But at the moment, you are generating power from that plant, are you?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We are. I think it is a maximum of 10 per cent.

Deputy J.H. Young: 10 per cent of?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: The Island's needs.

Chief Officer:

It is approximately 8 per cent. What we try and do is when we are running on one stream, we are generating 5 MW nominally and for export, and running on 2 streams - that is 2 streams in parallel operation - we generate 10 MW for the Island, so on average we are doing 8 per cent.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do you have a tariff agreement with the J.E.C. on that?

Chief Officer:

We do. We have got a commercial agreement with the J.E.C. where we get income from that. What you have got to remember with most power generation, whether it is an energy from waste plant or a conventional oil-fired boiler, your operational efficiency is down in the 40 per cent bracket and a lot of energy is wasted as residual heat, which is more low-grade heat. Scandinavian countries use energy from waste plants particularly for their community district heating schemes, which gets their energy efficiency to about 70 per cent and becomes a very integral part of the community. Jersey is on the borderline of being viable on that for a number of reasons. One is we have got quite a nice climate here, despite the winter we have just had, in that we do not have the same climate challenges that Scandinavian countries have. We have got no

Government incentives for generating power in alternative ways at the present time, which Europe and the U.K. have, and so the district heating element of this, that is something which is achievable, would be a great long-term benefit, but the actual payback for it is not there at the present time. But we are looking at a study of what we can utilise and one of the things I think we should be thinking about longer term is the future use of La Collette and whether there is a potential energy park, potentially heat pumps to run refrigeration storage and there is more enlightened ways of using the energy that we do generate in the Energy from Waste plant to make us more sustainable in the future.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You mean this is the waste energy, reducing the waste?

Chief Officer: Yes, yes.

The Connétable of St. John :

Was it not, at the time of being debated in the House, one of the reasons for going for this particular type of energy from waste plant was sold to the States in part that district heating could and should be part and parcel of the whole system? Am I correct? I know it is prior to your time, C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer), and before your time, Minister, but you would have been in the House at the time.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It was an aspiration, but as I say, most of the roads we drive on are built by General Don, and it is very difficult to retrofit the Island. We do not have greenfields that we can run across.

The Connétable of St. John :

You would not be retrofitting the Island, it would have been a district heating system for St. Helier .

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

That again would be difficult to pipe all the hot water across St. Helier without digging up vast tracts of road et cetera.

The Connétable of St. John : That is what we would be doing ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

You know, it would be interesting if we could pipe surplus hot water up to Fort Regent, for instance, to heat Fort Regent, but again that would be very expensive to put in.

Chief Officer:

It takes a brave authority to put in district heating.

The Connétable of St. John :

But that is what we appoint Ministers to be, is to be brave and make decisions.

Chief Officer:

The decision to build a new energy from waste plant did not include any capital costs for district heating, and yet it was an option then and it was an option which the States did not vote for. I was very surprised at the time that that was not an amendment, because that would have been a very interesting environmental amendment which could have been presented and it was not at the time by the main protagonists against the energy from waste plant. The equivalent plant in Sheffield generates a district heating system throughout Sheffield into their student accommodation and lots of their buildings and it is the same principal contractor who built the Sheffield plant as built our plant. So the technology is there. It is no problem. It generates 10 MW of heat which we throw away into the sea, absolute waste of energy.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What proportion is that waste in our energy? You said we are 40 per cent efficient and we should be 70 per cent efficient.

Chief Officer:

If you are generating 10 MW of energy, then you are throwing away 10 MW of heat, in simple terms.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What does that mean in terms of energy consumption, what proportion? What proportion are we wasting?

Chief Officer:

Well, energy comes out in various different forms. It is, either it comes out in heat or noise or light, and there is mechanical friction and all sorts of other things, so generally speaking, you have got to get rid of 10 MW. If you generate 10 MW of energy, actual, you are going to lose about 10 MW of low-grade heat.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Your 10 MW of energy, Minister, that is obviously at a feed-in tariff.

[14:45]

Can you tell us what that feed-in tariff is compared to what you pay to purchase electricity?

Chief Officer:

Basically, we align with the European rates which the J.E.C. buy their electricity, so it is reviewed on an annual basis with the European. I cannot recall the name of it, but there is a European source for electrical charging.

Deputy J.H. Young:

They do it for you, they assess this rate?

Chief Officer:

Yes, and we match that.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

But I am sure the panel is well aware that the Housing Department are retrofitting an awful lot of their housing stock with electrical heating, night storage radiators et cetera, so we are feeding 10 MW into that anyway, so via the J.E.C.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are you in a position to use any of that power yourself at La Collette or do you have feed it all into the J.E.C.?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It all goes into the J.E.C. and we get some back for running.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay. Do you want to move on?

The Connétable of St. John :

All I can say is it is a shame I was not in the House when that debate took place.

Chief Officer:

It is indeed. I would completely concur.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What would be the cost of retro investment, before we leave that?

Chief Officer:

Similar to the question the Constable of St. John has asked. I do not have a clue and I am not going to be drawn into it.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think we may draw into another similar area. Moving on to the subject of liquid waste and the energy issues arising on liquid waste treatment in your operations, we learnt yesterday from the Minister for the Environment that you are about to spend £230 million on designing and building a new liquid waste plant to achieve zero emissions and all sorts. Do you regard that as an achievable target?

Chief Officer:

First of all, I am not sure who the Minister for the Environment has been briefed from, but none of that is true and so if that was said in a Scrutiny forum, then it needs correcting.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay. Could you tell us, what is the energy balance as far as the liquid waste plant is concerned? How much energy does it consume?

Chief Officer:

Is that the existing plant or the proposed new one?

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes. Well, the existing and where you are heading towards, your new plan.

Chief Officer:

Okay. The existing plant has an installed energy capacity of about 2 MW and runs normally about 1 MW. That is grossly inefficient. What we have is we have retrofitted a 50 year-old plant which I think had a population equivalent of about 38,000 when it was first built in the 1950s and it is now dealing with a population equivalent of 100,000 on pretty much the same footprint, so we have basically forced a lovely and well-designed plant from the 1950s to do something way beyond its capacity and capability. The consequence of that is a huge inefficiency in terms of energy usage. It is one of the key drivers for looking at a new sewage treatment plant, as well as the fact that the assets are old and were not meeting some of the standards that we have got to meet in terms of the regulatory position.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So you mean the emission regulatory standards, not the energy ones?

Chief Officer:

Yes, that is right. That is the end of pipe regulation on nitrate. So the new plant, we are looking at an approach, which is to mitigate and minimise the energy use of the treatment works, so what we are looking at is a solution driven by the Water Framework Directive and the state/condition of the receiving waters from the sewage treatment works, which then dictates what standard is set for us by the Environment Regulator and then we build the plant to meet that standard. We also leave provision - and this is the big difference between 50 years ago and now - if that standard changes in the future, we have engineered additional space and additional mechanisms within the hydraulics to allow extensions to the sewage treatment works which are achievable and can be built in a way which is sustainable, but the higher standard your sewage treatment works becomes, the more energy you use doing it. So it is a real balance between the carbon footprint of what you are trying to achieve and what you are trying to protect.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can you give us the range of targets we should be aiming there, highest and the lowest then? You said the targets will be related to the Minister's requirements.

Chief Officer:

The Environment Regulator's requirements, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can you give us the range of what you ...

Chief Officer:

It depends on ... the difficulty here is this is based on the actual assessment of the specific area we discharge into, which is St. Aubin's Bay, which is then linked into the bay of St. Malo and the surrounding waters, so you have got to basically assess the environmental position of that bay at the present time, any negative effects or positive effects that our treatment will have on it as well as the effect on people, agriculture and a variety of other factors. So what this does is it means you get the right solution which fits the environment that you are discharging in and it is not just an arbitrary standard which is set by someone in Brussels. In fact, Brussels have changed this so that it is like this, so effectively you do the right amount of environmental protection which suits our needs as an Island. The range is ... in terms of energy usage it will basically be less than half the energy needed if you apply a carbonation standard versus a denitrifying standard, and that is the sort of nearest I can give you at this present time, which is a big impact in terms of energy usage and CO2 emissions.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Are you behind the carbon standard as the one that we should be aiming at primarily?

Chief Officer:

Carbon metrics for any project is something any Government should be looking at far more thoroughly, so that it gives you a proper balance in terms of the cost of construction and the actual legacy issue you get, so yes, I think carbon measuring and the impact on carbon is something that is going to be key moving into the future.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Just changing the subject slightly, Minister, because I am aware that time is moving on, it does say in Action Statement 10 that you are going to work with the Minister for Planning and Environment to explore the option for collecting the food waste from commercial establishments and households for anaerobic digestion, and that is going to be included in the revised solid waste strategy 2012. So was that included and, if so, what work has been done?

Chief Officer:

We are currently working on the 2012 revision now. Food waste is a really interesting and quite an emotive subject. It is something that our fellow island, Guernsey, is battling with at the moment and it is definitely going to be an option, to anaerobically digest food waste. The risk and problems you face are not based on the technologies, because it is easy - well, it is achievable - and it is not based on anything about being able to collect it, being able to deal with it. The key risk here is about what you do with the by-products of collecting it and generating the energy. You have got a centrate and you have also got a sludge and it is how do you recycle that sludge adequately in an island context where we have a huge amount of agricultural use?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

What is this sludge used for in large commercial places where the anaerobic digestion is undertaken?

Chief Officer:

It can be used in a variety of places. The challenge with Jersey is we have got a very intensive agricultural system and we have got a dairy industry, as you are aware, and the difficulty with food waste composting or food waste anaerobic digestion is the potential for a disease outbreak like B.S.E. (bovine spongiform encephalopathy) where you are looking at prions within bones and marrow bones and things and it is making sure that ... you cannot destroy that in these processes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The concept is good, but the practicalities if we are using it on a small island is not helpful?

Chief Officer:

It is the risk to the farming community, and potentially overnight shutting down a big industry which is essential for our wellbeing.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: A lot of people would deem it as being non-organic.

Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Because you are going back to the whole debate on the EfW (Energy from Waste Plant) 3 years ago maybe, if not longer. There was a whole list at the time that was raised about the amount of recycling and use of food waste, which would make quite a difference in the numbers. I think my recall was Jersey Royal - this was all public and in the House of the day - but certainly large agricultural businesses over here were very concerned about the impact on their export markets, because the supermarkets, we were told, were not happy to take products from land which had had food waste put on to it. Whether that is changed, I do not know.

Chief Officer:

That is a matter of public record.

Deputy J.H. Young:

The bit about the food collection is one small part of a much larger section on anaerobic digestion, mainly aimed at the agricultural industry. I presume the by-products of anaerobic digestion from slurry is not an issue?

Chief Officer:

Well, we recycle our sewage sludge back down. We have done it for the last 30 years and the agriculture industry recycles slurry back to land and if it could go towards A.D. (anaerobic digestion) that would be great. I think there has been a recent study undertaken about A.D. from farms which has been undertaken by the Environment Department. I am not sure if that has been published yet. Not yet. It is still in draft form, but there is nothing wrong with that at all, that stuff is good practice.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So you would be keen on doing that it if became possible and practical?

Chief Officer:

Anaerobic digestion has been done in Bellozanne for the last 40 years.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes, but you say extending completely rather than just disposing of the material, if I understood you rightly. You said at the moment you dispose to land and you were talking about an alternative to that. Did I misunderstand you?

Chief Officer: Yes, I think so.

Deputy J.H. Young: Apologies.

The Connétable of St. John :

You dispose to land, but not all land.

Chief Officer:

We do not dispose to all land, yes. There is a certain land bank ...

The Connétable of St. John :

Can you tell us the land where you do not dispose it?

Chief Officer:

We do not dispose of it anywhere around the Constable's house. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. John :

Please identify the areas, because there are red areas and green areas.

Chief Officer: Correct. There is a ...

The Connétable of St. John :

Can you identify the red areas, please?

Chief Officer:

Yes. There is a moratorium on anywhere that drains into a water catchment area and there are also strict controls on anywhere where potatoes are planted, so unless it is part of a 5-year crop rotation, there is a limited amount of where you can put straightforward sewage sludge, but we are looking at some innovation at the moment in terms of producing products which can be used to top-dress on grassland, which is quite an exciting opportunity for the Island, because one of the key problems we are facing is dealing with sewage sludge in the winter months. We have had terrible trouble in this last winter - because it has probably been one of the wettest winters on record - being able to get on to land and to not put sewage sludge on land, because what happens is when you put it on land when the weather has been like it has this winter, it will go straight into the streams and out to sea. So what we have tried to do is we have had to stockpile, store and do all sorts of things, and co-incinerating in our Energy from Waste plant. So what we are trying to do is find a more innovative solution which allows us to produce sludge in the winter and then stockpile and store it in a better format so it can be utilised when the crops are taking in the nitrogen.

The Connétable of St. John :

Given we have got a high water table in many areas of the Island, and those areas of the Island in fact do not have water mains, what is the policy now to put in this sewage sludge and pellets on land where you do not have an alternative water supply?

Chief Officer:

We are drifting slightly off the energy policy here, but we have an exclusion on boreholes, as you are aware. We do not produce sludge pellets anymore since the plant kept setting on fire, and whatever we do now, it is 10 times better than we did before when we deep-injected liquid sludge, which probably went ...

The Connétable of St. John : So you no longer deep inject?

Chief Officer:

We have not deep-injected liquid sludge since I have been in charge. I think it was a year. It took me a year to stop it.

The Connétable of St. John : Contrary to yesterday, Chairman.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes. We had an exchange with the Minister for the Environment on this subject yesterday. I am going to stick to the main subject. We will be coming back to that when we see the transcripts; that is why I think those subjects got raised now. Before we close this session, because we are on a tight timetable, Minister, obviously what I am interested in is your role as a Minister, how you can help co-ordinate and achieve the States achieving these targets across the board? Have you any thoughts on how best that can be done and how you, as a Minister, can put your efforts to make sure what is a theoretical plan becomes a reality?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

As has been said, the entire team is on this now and I am working with the Minister for Planning and Environment and his team on it, co-ordinating with T.T.S. officers to bring this to fruition.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Are you working closely together?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We are working I think as close as you can.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes, but is there cross-working co-operation? Is that there to the required degree?

Chief Officer:

Can I just say, between the 2 departments there is an excellent working relationship, and at officer level, we work in a co-ordinated fashion on every single process. Just currently we have got officers from both departments working together on the liquid waste strategy sat in a room at La Collette, which has proved to be very successful, as officers work together in as good a way as anywhere I have seen.

[15:00]

Deputy J.H. Young:

But when you need political decisions, how effective is that? Is it just ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I get regular feedback from the officers and the Chief Officer.

Chief Officer:

The Minister is fully informed of what is happening and we know what is happening. I do not think we can comment on the other issues.

Deputy J.H. Young: Okay, fine.

The Connétable of St. John :

Before we move on, we need to find out about Guernsey waste.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Oh, yes. Tell us, please, what the situation is with importation of Guernsey waste, which has been said to us as a potential source of energy.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is a source of finance for your department in the end.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Why it is relevant to this is because it has been said to us that for reasons of alternative fuel, it should be included within this piece of work, so I would like to hear what you can tell us about that.

Chief Officer:

We are working closely with Guernsey. Guernsey are currently looking at a variety of options for dealing with their legacy waste, their waste moving into the future, and Jersey is one of their options, but we are probably a higher-risk option than some of the other options that they have available now, because of there has been some fundamental changes in the European market through the recession. There is more capacity in some countries now and some of the Scandinavian countries are looking at a zero import of fossil fuels, which is incentivising them to bring waste into their jurisdictions. European law allows them to do it if it is a refuse-derived fuel and Guernsey are looking at those as potential options with potentially medium to long-term deals. Jersey's option is there, it is viable. I think it is ...

Deputy J.H. Young: Viable for both of us?

Chief Officer:

I think it is viable for both parties, but it is higher risk because there is more political hoops and hurdles to jump through than Guernsey's waste going elsewhere. What it does do, if it goes elsewhere, is it sends monies out of the Channel Islands, so the inter-island shipping does not benefit, the ports do not benefit and the local communities do not benefit. So I think there is a real balancing act here between what is cheaper versus what is the right thing to do for the Channel Islands.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What would it do to the percentage of the 5 per cent power input of the Island? What would it do?

Chief Officer:

It would go up, because 30,000 tonnes of Guernsey waste will increase our operation to the point where we would have to run for longer and generate more power.

Deputy J.H. Young: So would it double?

Chief Officer: No.

Deputy J.H. Young: 8 per cent?

Chief Officer:

About a 30 per cent increase, 35 per cent.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, maybe one before we close. It may be not entirely your area, but I would like your view on it, Minister, or your officers, if they wish to comment. The idea that we can have carbon neutral buildings in the future, what is your view of that: through building regulations?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That is a wonderful aspiration.

Deputy J.H. Young: Do you support it?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I would support that if at all possible, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So it is about achievability?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Chief Officer:

I think there is a huge amount that can be done through building regulations and bylaws around sustainability on building and the leverage on grey water and grey water recycling, using efficient materials and recycled materials I do not think has been taken to its maximum at the moment. Recycled aggregates and various other things should be promoted through our building regulations would be my view.

Director of Transport:

Also through voluntary schemes and good economic practice. The department, in its construction projects, attempts to recycle as much as it can on site, and where we have undertaken projects for other departments such as the airport when we created the new taxiways, all the concrete was recycled on site, and that is certainly the ethos that we take to all our projects. We have got the third quarry running down at La Collette doing recycled aggregates, so as a principle, it is certainly something we are trying to contribute towards within our own world and within the facilities we run.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Are you involved in all the discussions with Planning on these matters in setting the new bylaws?

Chief Officer: No.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Because, Minister, you have got some of the best technical expertise in the public sector and within your department.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I get regular feedback from the officers ...

Chief Officer:

No, we are not involved.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You are not used effectively in that area? Your expertise is not fully used?

Chief Officer: No.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, this energy document challenges the industrial and commercial sector to reduce its emissions by 80 per cent. That includes the States of Jersey and all activities within the public sector. Where do you see your largest contribution to that target in T.T.S.?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Obviously the Energy from Waste plant has one of the best gas flue cleaning systems in Europe, being very modern, and as has been pointed out before, we have got 10 electric cars that have just been leased and we are trying to reduce it all the way through.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But your challenge to reduce your emissions by 80 per cent in the next 40-odd years, do you see you will be able to do that within your department?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well, with more modern, efficient buildings, yes.

Chief Officer:

One of the key problems we have within the States is ... I think I have led the Eco Active sort of programme on energy efficiency for the last 12 months and we have made great strides in terms of trying to minimise the energy we use within the States. The challenge we face is our office accommodation. Stock is at a very poor standard and it is a bit like moving ... I have just recently moved from a draughty old Jersey farmhouse to a brand-new build and the difference in energy consumption in my house has been remarkable. I think the States need new office accommodation to really hit these standards if they are going to achieve them.

Deputy J.H. Young:

You said you are leading a project. That is a public sector project, is it?

Chief Officer: It is, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Which Minister do you report on that?

Chief Officer:

That is a good question. Yes, we have sort of been given the ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Oh, so it is one of those nice ones where you do not have to report to anybody?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No, it is Council of Ministers.

Chief Officer:

No. It was driven by the procurement savings required for energy, so it was a C.M.B. project. The Minister for Treasury.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can I ask, let us have some paperwork on that, if you can, because that is news. We had not picked that up until now, that there is a project running and that you are in charge of it and so on. We would like to hear about this.

Chief Officer:

I am not sure if I know who it was.

Director of Transport:

Within T.T.S. as well, a lot of the innovation is incremental, so there are lots of things going on within the department at a small scale, such as energy efficient street lighting, more energy efficient lighting within the car parks, doing that lighting at certain times of the day when the full light is not required. There is a scheme on at the moment using low energy asphalt to trial some repairs on the cycle track along the front, where it is not hot asphalt, it is cold lay asphalt, using different technologies. So the department is trying to innovate and explore all the time opportunities to reduce its carbon footprint and some of those will be runners and some of them will not be, but there is that sort of probing the whole time going on.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Minister, it sounds as if your team are well in the lead on these things. Is this something that you could take a lead on in this energy partnership, for example? You have read about this energy partnership. Are you comfortable that that organisation is the way forward?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think so, yes. I mean, as Tristen has just pointed out, we have invested quite heavily in new, modern street lighting and it is far more efficient than the old ones and we are getting complaints now that people's private car parks are not being illuminated because it is focused straight down on the road.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So would you, Minister, be prepared, if you were asked, to take a lead role in that project?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: One of the lead roles would not be a problem, yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I ask, do you have any smart meters anywhere in T.T.S. to help your staff to identify peak loads of energy?

Chief Officer:

Yes. In terms of the heavy electrical loads we are looking at obviously the metering and have a real focus on how we spend our electricity bills. From the property and office portfolio, Property Holdings take a lead on that and they have developed a dashboard which shows you far more elegantly how much electrical usage we are having. But it is really weather dependent, and you can make great savings, but apart from putting a jumper on, it is tricky when you have got a howling gale going through the windows and that is unfortunately where a lot of the office accommodation is in that position.

Deputy J.H. Young: Tristen, one last word.

Director of Transport:

One last word: obviously at T.T.S. we strive to lead by example and there are ample challenges on it, and if anyone wants to put down the gauntlet in terms of state-run transport ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Thank you, Minister, and your team for an excellent session, very helpful, informative. I am going to close it now and get ready for the next time.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Can I also apologise for the croaky voice?

Deputy J.H. Young:

I hope you feel better soon, Minister.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Thank you.

[15:10]