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Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Digital Skills Sub-Panel
Trackers
MONDAY, 9th JUNE 2014
Panel:
Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade (Chairman) Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin
Witnesses:
Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture)
Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture)
Mr. M. Lundy (Director of Education, Sport and Culture)
Ms. P. Shurmer (Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme)
Mr. A. Gibbs (Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture) Mr. J. Donovan (Director Designate, Education, Sport and Culture)
[14:04]
Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade (Chairman):
We have this afternoon got an Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Obviously we are reviewing the Trackers apprenticeship scheme. The first thing I need to do is just remind everybody of the code of practice in regards to eating and drinking and mobile phones on quiet, if possible. We need to, for the tape, just tell the tape who we are. I am Constable Steve Pallett, Chairman of the Digital Skills Sub-Panel.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Thank you very much. Just to give you a little bit of background as to where we are so far in this review, obviously we have met a few times to discuss where we want it to go, and we have had a hearing with the ... I will not name him, it is the Chairman of the Training & Professional Development Sub-Committee of the Jersey Construction Council. and we have also had an informal meeting with a couple of mature students, just to get a feel for how Trackers has developed, and that was a very positive evening we had with them. So I am going to get straight into it, because obviously we have got to be careful of time this afternoon. So if I could just start in terms of the Trackers programme, who does the scheme target? What is the target market for that scheme?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I suppose in very general, you have got a political target, which is those young people that can succeed with perhaps a slightly more formal structure to their further education, and I think it really ranges from 16 to early 20s. There are some more mature students, increasingly, that are looking to join an apprenticeship scheme. It has kind of moved from being the traditional area of age ranges that you would expect in apprenticeship schemes to becoming slightly wider as it develops and as we get increasing success and interest from different sectors of the economy.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You mentioned success. How do you measure that success and do you think the scheme has been successful?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I will hand over to Penny and Andrew, who can give you as much information as you want really around this area. How long have you got would be the question.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : I know, I know.
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
Shall I start and then Penny can fill in the detail? Would we consider it a success? Yes. At this stage, the scheme is in its very early stages and effectively it was only launched in 2012, so we are talking about within 2 years of the scheme. I think the sign of success for us would be feedback we get from employers, feedback we get from apprentices. I think it would also be retention. That was one of the things that we were really looking to try and improve on, so that people who are joining the scheme stayed on the scheme. There may be odd occasions where somebody has to move for some other reason, but generally we are looking at a good retention figure. So our indicators of success would be that, but also we were keen to see an extension into, as the Minister says, perhaps non-traditional sectors as well, so we were looking to have a scheme that was more flexible and could cope with training in other areas and we are starting to see that. Penny can give some details of the numbers if that would be useful.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
That was the question I was just going to ask. How many was the scheme originally set up for? What sort of numbers are you looking at now?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, it was 120 over the 3-year programme. We are currently at 126 candidates within the 2 years and we are recruiting right now for new places. The first year we had 100 per cent of them complete their first year with us, so their academic qualification for that year. We lost just a couple of students for different reasons. I have got exactly the reasons: one had a career opportunity, went off to set their own business up, so that everybody is ... because of the mentor structure, they are all being managed to whatever their development is. So that was one student. We have enhanced all our recruitment structures, developing the programme, still lots to do, so in 2012 we were in the transition period from the old scheme to the new scheme, so there is a couple of students there that ... and our new process may not yet be right, so they managed to complete their first year, but already they were moving into a different industry area. We worked with Advance to Work, they were younger students who worked with Advance to Work, so they moved on to that programme to go into more of an earning job at that point. That is where they were up to. I think that is it; that is the ones they started for the second year.
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is probably worth also saying that on top of the Trackers scheme was a scheme which has been brought into Trackers, which was about a care apprenticeship, so it was a separate bit and the target was 90 students over 3 years. That is a different sort of student in some ways. These are if you have been in employment for 6 months, and again, as the Minister said, these tend to be more mature students and we have been working - or Penny's team have been working - with Highlands and the hospital to provide training for them. Again, that is on track, so those total numbers include some of the care apprentices as well.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
One phrase that was used by the Chairman from the Jersey Construction Council was: "Quality over quantity." How do you ensure that in your process of speaking to students that you are getting the right students on to the scheme? What is the criteria for joining the scheme?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, we have got a staged approach. One of the key aspects - it is in our literature and everything - is looking for a motivated and committed student, whatever age they are, and that is obviously quite difficult to demonstrate in an interview process, so we have the staged application approach and we are also mindful of the range of students that come forward. The very first application process is, I would say, quite easy initial form. It means that they can do it fairly quickly, it just asks them in 100 words why they want to do it, quite a bit of heart in there, but it also means that for some students they can hand it in quite quickly, it does not take too much time for them. They do need parents' signatures if they are under 18. But we felt that that was not enough because lots of children and young people can also say: "Oh, I will just do that" and it is like do they really want it? So we introduced a second-stage approach so that those that maybe have thought that then when it came to it, it was not for them, then they would not necessarily continue the application process. The second stage also asked for more information, so for some students, the other group of students that we were looking at is if you give them a big application form at the beginning it may be beyond their academic ability or they might be freaked out by it ...
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture: It will frighten them off.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, so we felt that we wanted to gain their attention. Also Trackers is built very much on success as being the key focus and for young people particularly to recognise that success, to help them stay motivated for the future, so ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But how do you ensure they have got that motivation?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
By doing their first-stage application, if they are then successful, their self-esteem has already risen, they then approach the second stage. Their second-stage applications I have to say have been a very, very good standard, whatever their ability is, they put the effort in, because they obviously really want it, and then if they are successful they then are invited to interview. So by the time we get them in our door for interview, they are buzzing, and in its own right, that has
shown that did they hand it in on time, have they been committed, did they see the process all the way through? It does take a little while as well, so we started in the March time. We do not finish until the end of this month. We are at the present time interviewing 94 students pretty much back to back, all day, every day over this last month. Then in their interview, the interview is 2 people are interviewing them as well, so it can be a bit daunting, but we make them at ease. It has also got structured questions, obviously a fair process for everybody, and in that we are asking them ... they bring to the interview something they are proud of, because again it is that recognition of it is important to feel proud of achievements, and then following on from that, we are looking at have they networked with employers, have they got an employer? Some of them have already got employers lined up, but have they had experience before, and so all the way through that process, you are getting a good indication of where they are at. If they are younger students, we would also work with Highlands College, and the majority of those, certainly for the generic construction trades and hairdressing and motor vehicle, we use Highlands College for training. We will liaise with their tutors - some of them have been on one year already - to see where they are up to. Some of the students will have 2 options: they will be coming towards Trackers, but they may also have an idea that they have got a fulltime option as well at this early point and sometimes they will already be starting to make that decision, which one is for them. So there is lots of ways of trying to assess that evidence of motivation and commitment, and then as far as their academic attainment, it will depend on the qualification they are going for. Certain courses will require higher academic et cetera and some will not be so much, so again that will play a part.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Who carries out that interview process?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
So my team of mentors, 2 mentors. We are doing our new foundation programme. I am going to be involved in every single one of those new interviews, because it is a different group of students. Last year I interviewed, I think, every single student with one of my mentors, so I was training the mentors and learning with them as well; they have got great skills. So there is always 2 people. Again, that helps for making sure the quality is met as well, the standards are met.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
We are going to talk about mentors a little bit later on. We definitely want to talk about them.
[14:00]
Just a very simple question, I suppose: what do you term an apprentice? What is an apprentice? What do you call an apprentice, because it can cover a range of different subjects?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
A lot of people think it is just a young person looking to start off in their career, and that is not always the case, is it?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
No. Obviously there is lots of different programmes out there as well, so we would definitely have lots of conversation about what an apprentice looks like, if you like. Certainly obviously somebody post-16, since they have left school, some transition nicely into an apprenticeship area. We definitely felt that we need an adequate amount of training in that, so there are professional development courses, for example, that might be 3 months long. Is that an apprenticeship? Possibly that is not enough, because it is about evidencing their training in the workplace as well, making sure it is not just what you are learning at college, it is embedded in the workplace, so therefore I think all our programmes are over a year long, even the care programme. The underpinning knowledge may be only 6 months, but to get their assessment and their courses, it is an 18-month programme, so that is sort of the bare minimum, I would say, almost.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
In terms of the length of the apprenticeships, can they range?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : From?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
A year, 18 months to 4 or 5 years, depending on the industry and the sector.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Okay. Sorry, go on.
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
I was going to say one of the things that we were keen on, that they should have that flexibility, that apprenticeship ... and as Penny said, that has been the cause of lots of conversations. In fact, at one point we thought of moving away from that, because it seemed to pigeonhole it, but it is a scheme which people recognise as a scheme, as training through work for work, it has that badge, really. But the idea was to have flexibilities that work in with the sector, that the sector was saying: "This is what we need. These are the qualifications we need. This is the length of experience" and we could therefore map an apprentice programme against that particular sector, so care 18 months, because that fits with that programme, whereas a new scheme which just been launched is hospitality management, which is going into junior management, so consequently that is 4 years, taking somebody right the way through up, so it varies from each scheme and from each industry.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Are you currently widening out the sort of subjects that you are offering in terms of within Trackers itself?
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
Yes. I sometimes get a bit frightened each time Penny comes in my office, but no, there are new schemes. If you look at applications for this year, so as well as the traditional ones, as I said, we have got a hospitality management, but there is dental nursing, there is greenkeeping, which is something which we would never be able to run a course on greenkeeping in the Island. However, with a flexible programme you can look at different types of training and take maybe 2 people on the course, support them through mentors and you are training towards a particular career in that area. We have already had conversations with people like signmakers, on the veterinary side, veterinary assistants, so the opportunities exist for us to explore with different sectors ways of training people. There is brewery.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Brewery, yes, the brewery.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
But, you see, one of the main differences, Connétable , I think between what would be an industry- led and provided apprenticeship scheme would be that that industry, whichever it may be, would know that they wanted this particular thing and they would have a fairly rigid apprenticeship scheme that was tailormade to that. In my day, it was motor trade, and there are plenty of others to talk about. The big difference between that industry-led kind of apprenticeship programme and what we are doing here, which is a Government-led apprenticeship programme, it has to be a Government-led apprenticeship programme in this Island, simply because we do not have the numbers that would make an industry-specific programme, perhaps inhouse at a large factory in United Kingdom. We just simply do not have the numbers that could do that, and that is, I believe, one of the reasons why the apprenticeship programme, the previous apprenticeship programme, was kind of too narrow in its way, because it was kind of trying to be both, in a way.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Widening it out so you get Government-led and widening it out ...
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
But it has to be flexible enough. We have to have a system which is flexible enough with a Government-led programme, which goes across all opportunities in all local industries to provide local work for young people. That is, I think, the fundamental difference, and a Government-led apprenticeship programme by default has to be very wide in its scope because it has to be able to train relatively small numbers of people in things like greenkeeping, brewing, it has to be flexible enough to cope with that kind of demand and provide an apprenticeship structure around that, so really that is what they are there for.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
With a brief that is as wide-ranging, how do you cope in terms of financing and resourcing that?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: Well, that is over to the lads.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
The major contribution from the States of Jersey is in relation to training. In the previous scheme, the employer received a grant and the apprentice then would also be able to access training, mostly at Highlands College, but with this scheme, the employer is not getting the same funding. The employer gets the training provided, so Highlands is obviously our main training provider and I guess where there were other training providers available, we would still look to them to contribute to the scheme. So essentially that is the difference, and it is a partnership between the employer, who is looking for prospective employees, so there is a sort of a guarantee there for many of the apprenticeships. They are developing their skills in the workplace and they are developing them in a way that meets the needs of the local employers, so that is why I think this has been particularly successful, but also probably the biggest component that makes it successful is the contribution of the mentors. It is a pretty unique approach in Jersey, although it has been tested on the Advance to Work scheme and the Advance Plus schemes, but the fact that there is a mentor there working both with the employer and the apprentice, it has meant that you can predict problems, you can work through them and you can support both the employer and the apprentice through the scheme.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I know from speaking to the 2 apprentices that we spoke to earlier, mature apprentices, how important the mentors were to them, so I think it is probably important that we get on to that fairly early so we do not miss the opportunity. We have got quite a few questions around that. Who finances the mentors themselves?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: The scheme finances the mentors.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Okay. Who is in charge of them?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Maybe me.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Okay. You say you are in charge of them. What role do you play in terms of what they provide the students?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Pretty much we have developed as a team over the time, because it has obviously been very fast- paced, we have developed just a few, I suppose, core components. One of them is a structure whereby ideally the minimum amount of time that is spent between seeing an apprentice, whatever age they are, is 3 weeks, so every 3 weeks on the whole - there are some things that crop up - the mentor meets with the individual and it is very much looking at what they have achieved, what they are going to achieve in the future, tying in college work, home life, especially our mature students, they are juggling other things. Then every 3 months the structure is that the mentor will meet with the apprentice and the employer together, as like a review time, and it is very like having a mini-appraisal every 3 months for the individual apprentice, but it is also really great, we have noticed lots of different times where for the employers, to put an employer in front of an apprentice does not often happen, to have them in the same room together, and that is where certainly our employers have turned around: "Oh, this is great. We can see what they are doing. We can now plan for them to do more, because we thought they might not be doing very much and they are achieving." Then also part of the role of the mentor is to facilitate that and to facilitate developments, so it could be that the employer has noticed that there is additional training that they need or they would like to have for their employment, to move them up the ladder or to give them another opportunity, and the mentor then comes back to me and we look at: "Well, what does that look like?" and try and source the training.
So they can restructure their training at times as well and make ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes. Well, they have their main apprenticeship and then we add additional training, depending on the individual and the business needs, which that is, I think, the hook for employers as well. That is very personal to employers and that is when they really see the value, the added value of Trackers, not just the mentor, which is amazing, but then also that that mentor can look at the big picture with them. Also the other thing the mentor does, we were talking about them being support for the employers, is we are working with a lot of small businesses and therefore they do not necessarily have H.R. (human resources) structures and things like that, so the mentor has often been a support for writing out new contracts or seeking support when they need to change from a training rate to the youth rate and things like that. So the mentor has lots of different roles. Then we try and meet with our mentors, obviously I meet with them regularly to see where they are up to. I have got involved with some apprentices and their mentor as well to look at development and things like that, so it is quite a hands-on approach at the moment.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
A small businessman will not have the necessary administrative resources available to them that a larger company would, and that small businessman is worried about sales, cash flow and all sorts of other stuff, and keeping your eye on the training needs of a young person that you have taken on, it tends ... I am going to be honest, it might tend to get put to the back of the queue, and this is where the mentors really, really work for small businesses, because they will, at opportune moments, bring that particular situation with a young person under a training contract to the forefront of the head of the business' mental state at that point. For an employer, I think that is crucially, crucially important, but it is not that the employer does not want to do that, it is that there will be many other things that will get in the way. Often that would be the reason right at the start why he does not take on an apprentice in the first place, because he kind of knows that he does not have the time to devote to it, whereas Penny has provided all of the kind of administrative back-up in order to run successfully a training apprentice programme within small businesses, and in this Island, when you bear in mind the number of small and medium-sized businesses we have, it is absolutely vital.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
In terms of the actual mentors themselves, certainly from the point of view of recording it here today, they are independent of the trades, are they not? They are not tradesmen themselves?
No. We carefully thought about should our mentors be industry-specific, and certainly we are in a small Island and it was felt very much that the whole point of a mentor is that they are independent and they can therefore be a facilitator and a good facilitator. What we found is obviously all our mentors come from all different backgrounds anyway, so they may have in their history of being an apprentice carpenter years and years ago, but have changed careers since then, or have now gained interest in a certain area and therefore will be developing their skills in that area, but it has worked really well. There is then connections necessarily with any area and that is really positive, and it also means from a developmental point of view from the apprentice - and we use this quite a lot - if we do not know what their industry is, it means the student has to tell us, which then enhances their learning, which is really key and helps those open questions.
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
They are not assessors, that is the key point. They are certainly not ... they do not necessarily have that expertise in order to make those assessments, they can have that independent view and facilitate everybody's point of view.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What sort of feedback have you had from the students in terms of their relationship with their mentors? I would have thought it has been pretty good, but ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, very. Yes, we have quite an open office and the apprentices are often in and out and what is really nice is although we have got 100 and something on the books, the apprentices, because of this way we work, it means that most of them know most of my mentors. It does not matter if it is not their actual designated mentor. Certainly in the care area, we have been running study groups for them, because they are mature students trying to juggle home life and all sorts of different things, so there has been study group times with several mentors running that, and it has opened up them being accessible to other mentors, especially if somebody is on leave or whatever. So it has been really positive and my team have got a range of skills, so sometimes they be may encouraged to meet a different mentor because that is the area of expertise that mentor has got, so that is really good.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Would it be fair to say that the mentors ... obviously they take a very close interest in the apprentice and the course he is on, but they also offer ... it is also about coaching life skills as well that go along with it, would that be fair comment?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, I think so. Yes, there is quite a bit of this. Part of being able to see your success for any of us and assessing motivation and commitment, it is about the bigger journey, the longer vision of what your future looks like and sometimes that means that in life we have got to deal with other things going on to be able to achieve that, so a lot of the open discussion that mentors have with their apprentices is about how they are going to make it, so that will incorporate some life skills, some pointing, signposting to different agencies, different support. That is very much the mentor's role as well.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
How many mentors have you got and what is the caseload of each of the mentors?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
The caseload is one to 25 and we have got currently 5 fulltime mentors. We have just had to recruit, we are recruiting 2 more right now because the caseloads are obviously getting higher.
[14:30]
We carefully thought ... in some ways, I would ideally like to reduce it slightly to about 22, because of the quality of work, but it is a fine line between just adding numbers on to a caseload for the mentors and the quality of time that can be spent with the individual students to ensure that the success happens at the end of the day. So 25 is a maximum, I would say, but depending on the students as well.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Just picking that up, a point in terms of taking on 2 mentors, is that to reduce numbers or is that to take more ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: No, to take more on.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : More students on?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What sort of target are you looking at in terms of numbers?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: 350 by 2017 over 20 different sectors.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : 350 by?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: 2017.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
That is the level that I have asked the officers: "How quickly and how big can this grow realistically by 2017?" and they have said to me that they believe that they are setting their own target at 350. I challenged them and said: "Are you sure?" I think you started a bit lower than that, did you not? They have gone for 350 and there is political support for that level, but who knows what it could achieve after that?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is dependent of course on the Medium Term Financial Plan.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Okay. Obviously you have got 126 or that number currently studying in the Island. 126 out of how many actual apprentices are you currently running through Highlands at present?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
They are not all at Highlands, just to make it clear. We do use the hospital training for our care programme.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : We were aware of that, yes.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: We can get you the figures on that.
There are people who are on the day release courses, for instance, who would not be on the Trackers programme. They may be on a short programme, maybe just doing a small part of some training.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
But in terms of percentage of the number, is it ...
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
We would have to get that figure for you, because of course employers will still have their own relationship with Highlands College and there will be young people, young adults as well who will be in the workplace and they will be studying at Highlands College, but they are not part of the Trackers scheme.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Okay. I have pinched one of my colleague's sections to ask, so what I will do is I will let him take the pick of what is left.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I have been writing right the way through. Thank you, Chairman. The 126 should be 120, but that is over 3 years. They were not all starting on day one, this 126 is a rolling programme, I take it, at the moment?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Right, okay.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
We have currently the 126. We would have had more, because obviously some of them have left and completed their qualifications.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Exactly, and some of them are 18 months and some of them are 4 years.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: That is right, and now we are taking another ...
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So at the moment ... well, your limit is 120. How are you funding the other 6 at the moment, if you have had funding just for 120?
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
The initial funding, the initial growth bid was in the Medium Term Financial Plan for 2012, 2013 and 2014, and at that point the Trackers programme was in the very embryonic stages of development. The model itself developed into the model that the Director described, where instead of giving employers grants, the concentration was on paying for training, and that gave us the scope within the existing budget in order to expand the mentorship scheme, so we have done it within the initial budget which was set out in the Medium Term Financial Plan.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Percentage-wise for that budget, where does the percentage lie between the mentors or the training?
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture: The mentors. The staff are more expensive than training.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The mentors themselves are permanent staff, fulltime staff with the workload, so this sort of 350 figure is going to double ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Because that is 350 current, as in operation, so there will be a lot more that would have gone through the programme, so yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Yes, right. Yes, I accept that. Why reject some people? If people apply to you - and I have downloaded all the application forms and everything - what is the sort of thing you refuse them for, because there is no course or because they are not suitable? How do you determine that?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
It is a really good question, in the fact that that is part of the reason we developed our foundation programme. It came from last year when we were looking at our students. Obviously we are under Education and we work very closely with our students and we want the best for them, so sometimes by the time they have got to interview, it is maybe evident that they do not really have ... they are not yet work-ready, because obviously to transfer into an apprenticeship, they need to
be moving into employment very quickly really, and so some of those we ... last year, because we did not have any facility, we worked with Highlands College and they moved into a fulltime programme, some of them, for that year and they have come back to us now and they are more ready and they are ready to go. By the time they get to interview ... and again, we are in this process right now and it has been very exciting to see that there is some superbly motivated youngsters, and by the time they have got to interview, there is very, very few that are not appropriate for whichever route they have chosen, because they have really thought about it and most of them have already got job opportunities lined up or certainly connections. So those that were not, it is a concern, and that is why the foundation programme, I proposed this different model, because there are students also that they are going into fulltime education and equally it was not ideal for them and they did not really want that, but it was the only option we had at the time, and they do want more practical work-based skills to get them further forward really, but also they still want to learn and undertake a qualification, so we developed our foundation programme, which is launching this year. I am interviewing 21 students for that programme with several more to potentially come, so at the moment we have only got one programme, which is 14 students - we are already over-subscribed, but they are all perfect for that programme - and it is definitely something to look at. That is working with Prince's Trust and it is a different model of education completely.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So some applicants are not suitable then? You must meet some that are just ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, not that often. We have not experienced it by the time they get to interview, there is no one that does not want to be at the interview, so therefore they are all motivated. They either will not turn up if they are not going to come, then usually ... we follow it up to make sure, because obviously again we are in education, and we make sure they have got another direction and make sure they are signposted, but everybody that comes to interview, it will be either academic ability for the course that they are aiming for is not matching and therefore for them to undertake the level would be too difficult or they do not yet have those communication skills and self-esteem and all the other things that need a bit more enhancing before they are ready for work.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
But you never get them to that stage knowing that you have not got funding to pay for it, to support the ...
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture: No, we have not turned anybody away for funding.
The Connétable of St. Martin : For funding.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is important to differentiate the Trackers programme from the other Back to Work initiatives, because this is not essentially about Back to Work, this is about getting the skills that the employer needs and giving the young people the development opportunities and foothold in the workplace.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The 2 recent ... obviously one was older than the other, but both of them were sort of totally motivated. There was no question about this. Thinking of the courses, and I have got the courses here, if somebody came to you for innkeeping or something like that, is that one you would consider?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
We have. We have got a brewer that came to us, and a brewery is very close to that, and we do get these individual areas. For example, the brewery is quite a nice one to mention, because it is in its early stages of looking at what it looks like in the development for training, but they have identified a workforce plan and they have got a shortage for the future, they will have to look to recruit off-Island, which is not what they want to do, and so therefore they are already looking right now at what can they do going forward. They had a motivated youngster that also wanted to work in that field, which was great, so they came to us and it has been fantastic to be able to go through that process. We have had meetings with them: "What do the employers want? How can it be managed? What training is available? There is not anything in the Island right now, so how can we manage that and their expectations?" So that is anything that is new and different, we are encouraging employers to actually come forward, especially if there is a skill shortage and that they can see that there is not anybody trained up to do that role is obviously going to be a positive for our Island.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Then you have got the challenge of funding, how much it is going to cost.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Director mentioned skills the employers need and I think you just mentioned it as well. What contact have you had between yourself as a government department and the construction and hospitality industries in terms of providing the skills that they require?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
I liaise very closely with the Construction Council. I meet with them quite regularly and I have facilitated a Highlands College meeting with their Education Board as well as myself to look at: "What can we look at for the future?" This started right from the beginning of last year and before we even launched Trackers, so the Construction Council, certainly we have been very keen to work with them and find out what the industry represents and what that looks like and that certainly is going to continue, because it is really important we get that right, and it is even from certainly certain trades. It is interesting you mentioned about the quality over quantity: that is something we really talked about. As much as the industry need the numbers, they also need skilled qualified work people that can do those jobs and have a career in that as well, and so for apprenticeships they want the quality as opposed to the quantity, although we need to still get more in that area, but not to the ... we do not need 500 of one trade, for example. The hospitality industry, obviously when we set up the new concept, basically that was one of my "come to Andy's office with an idea" and we went from there to facilitate working with Highlands College, working with the Jersey Hospitality Association, everybody in one room, put it on the table. Since then we have had 37 representatives from the industry in the room to propose the new plan, we have had 17 pledges of apprenticeships within that industry. We are now looking for students to match that - it will be less than that obviously for the quality - to take it forward, so again, whenever we are looking at a new industry area, it is really important that we connect out there with industry to find out what it is, because we may have that from an educational point of view, from a training point of view, but we do need to know what their skills are as well and match the industry.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
In terms of projections for future needs of any particular industry, and I pick one purely because we have had a hearing with them, and that is the Construction Council, the Chairman of the Training Committee said ... I think there is roughly between 200 and 400 people or there will be jobs available by the end of next year. How would you deal with that in terms of filling that skills gap?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
You really need a comprehensive response to that. Trackers will not be able to deal with that problem for the Island, and it is always a challenge. We have had on many occasions before where somebody has said ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade : You need 300 plumbers.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
... "We need 300 plumbers. Where will we need those plumbers?" The real advantage of the Trackers scheme is that the demand is upfront, so you know that the employer needs the employee and they are prepared to invest in the training and development. The issue will be somewhat more challenging I think for Highlands College. You know that the facilities will not be able to respond to the demand that is expected, but not just that, the construction industry themselves will not want to be dependent on new and inexperienced talent in their industry. They will want more experienced people as well, so the chances of us being able to turn around over 200 in a particular discipline in a year to meet the needs of the industry are pretty slim, so we need to engage, and that is what we are doing, engaging in a dialogue with the construction industry to see what can be done and that is ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade : How are you dealing with the ...
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: We do not know about the projection yet.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
They did mention about a report they are doing currently at the present time to look at projection levels over the next year.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
The Skills Board, who work to the Skills Executive, and who are overseeing many of the strategies that we are implementing, have commissioned a review of the construction industry, in fact have commissioned a number of reviews, but that is the major review at the moment. When is that one due to be completed?
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture: That should be finished probably about the first or second week of July.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
Okay. So once we have got that data, we have got something concrete to work on. I appreciate it is very easy to say: "We will need up to 200 of this and 200 of that" but we need some hard data around that and we need to see the level of skill that is required in order to be able to respond
effectively. So that report will come out in July and we will act on the report and it will go to the Skills Board, the Skills Board will make recommendations to the Skills Executive, the 3 Ministers who are overseeing that and we will take it from there.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The thing that you said about Highlands that is quite interesting, you say Highlands would not be able to cope. Is that because we have got other courses at Highlands that are taking the space? Is Highlands just too small as a complex?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
"Is Highlands too small" is an interesting question. Up until 2 years ago, Highlands had about 750 students and it has now got nearly 1,000 students and we do not see that now dropping. Every time there has been a recession the numbers at Highlands have increased substantially, but it has been a step change. With the recession, they have not dropped back downwards, so we are not anticipating that the numbers at Highlands are going to drop down. The question is whether or not the facilities, and indeed the courses that we are offering, are well-aligned with the needs of the Island, and that is what these pieces of work are about, ensuring that they are well-aligned. We have at Highlands in the Medium Term Capital Plan, we have £3 million for the development of a skills centre, so there needs to be some work done around that; whether it is 14 to 16 or 14 to 19 is yet to be decided.
[14:45]
But if it is 14 to 19, then we would need to make sure that it dovetails with what Highlands is doing so that there is progression and continuity through, that is necessary, but also that we can meet the longer-term aspirations of the various industries and sectors.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Sorry, what is a skills centre? What would that encompass?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: A skills centre really is a ...
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Because that is quite a big investment.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is a big investment and it is a cost-effective way of providing what would otherwise be very costly tuition at individual schools. You would not gear up a secondary school to deliver ... in Jersey, you would not gear them up to deliver, for example, engineering, motor vehicle et cetera et cetera, but the fact of the matter is that when you bring these resources together into a single skills centre, young people from the various schools of the Island can access that and still be based at their own schools, they can access the training that they want.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Will it not be the historic vocational subjects that you are talking about, carpentry, engineering and those type of skills?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It would not necessarily. This is all work that is yet to be done, so there would be a feasibility study that would be produced to look at the range of courses that would be operating there, but just in the same way as we have sort of tried to change the common perception of what an apprenticeship is, we would also want to change the common perception of what a skills centre delivers, so it would not just be the trades, we would be looking at I.T. (information technology) and various other sectors. The skills centre and what Highlands College delivers has to sit neatly with what the Island needs.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The other part I was thinking, have they had any problems, because the students at training are also training with people who are at Trackers and have you had much feedback on that from the Trackers students, if you like?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
We have got more students from it, so the Trackers students sharing the classroom, and sometimes we have found that the other students are: "Oh, you have got a mentor coming to see you. Oh, they are checking how you are doing" and then they have gone to their employer, and that is the connection, again the employer has come forward, because we are still in such early days, we are moving. So that has been quite interesting, but I think on the whole, when they are at college, they are studying their actual qualification and they are in a learning environment, so nice for them at the time, that is what they are doing and that is what they are focused on.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
It is wrong to use the word "changing" here, because I do not mean it like that at all. You are providing somebody at the end who is trained, who has got the apprenticeship. Have you had any feedback yet, because I know it is very early, of the people, if you like, or the new tradesmen working for somebody else, having gone through everything with one ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
With one and changing jobs? We have not at that this point. However, we have had redundancies happen last year and the way ...
The Connétable of St. Martin :
They are still training, obviously, yes, so ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, they are in the training and they have had redundancies.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Oh, in the training, okay.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, so they are in training and they have had redundancies, which has been another really key point of how the Tracker is modelled and it is different. In the past, if they had lost their jobs, they would have then not been able to complete their studies at Highlands and then potentially they would have had to change career possibly as well. Our students that were made redundant, obviously because the mentor was working very closely with the employer and knew this might be on the cards, it was a difficult time, there was lots of communication. Occasionally the student had almost been facilitated to find another job, even with a colleague of the employer when they were in, so there was sort of this real working together, because we do have really good employers that do not want this to happen to their students, and occasionally they have just been made redundant and the mentor works with that student. It means they can stay at their college course because they then find work experience to cover the gap, which is facilitated by the mentor and the student looking at that employer, and then moving into paid work. I think maybe last time I was here we mentioned that we had our 5 students over that period of time and no one was out of work for longer than 3 weeks and they had moved into paid work, which obviously ... and that was in last year and it was very difficult to find work.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Without Trackers, that would not have happened.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
No, I do not think it would have done. I have to say certainly from the individuals and the situation, so that is when they have changed jobs more so.
It is worth saying as well I think that it is another good example of partnership working, not only with the college, who were able to keep them on, but also the Social Security, so Social Security agreed that if they were entitled to income support during that period of time that they could claim income support, so that was very good. They did not have to dash off and look for jobs, because we would be looking for that for them, so it was a partnership between everybody and it was in everybody's best interests.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Do you get feedback on the mentors either from the employer or the ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, that is a really good point. Yes, we are looking at surveys and things like that. We did have one just from our awards. For our awards we got some feedback as to what they wanted, but it was not asked for, but we received feedback about the mentors in this survey when they were writing extra information at the bottom, but also I actually go out whenever possible to see different employers for different reasons and I get very informal praise for the mentors, which is fantastic, and then I obviously share it back with them, because it is important.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Because it is so varied, I suppose, and there are so many different people, it is going to come to your notice, is it not, if you have got a mentor not performing?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Absolutely, yes, I think so.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
If it was just one employer and looking after 25, but it is not, is it?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
It is not. They are all different ... they are working with a range of students, yes. They are not industry ... even the mentor working with just one industry, they will ... we have got one or 2 of our mentors are more focused on an area, but they still keep their hands in with different students and that is really important, because they get to see all industry areas, but also it means that there is this cross-quality assurance between mentors when they communicate. They do share practice as well between them, so it is very good.
Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Can I just mention something anecdotal, because I was feeling a bit lonely and left out sitting over here? It is just simply I visited T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) the other day before the waste strategy and I was talking to the guys there and they were talking about the apprentices and talking about the very thing you were talking about, which is because of the mentoring, the quality of the student and the motivation and the way they dealt with stuff was completely different from students they had before, apprentices they had before - so these people stuck at it and were really there for the duration - and that they would then identify that was the mentors, so that is really the key to it. I think it is fantastic.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You talked about relationships behind it. Do you have a relationship with all the secondary schools as well? Has that been built up over time?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes. Obviously it is still early, we have still not long been operating, but very early on, certainly the careers teachers that I have been in regular contact with, the careers teachers and Careers Jersey, who facilitate the connection between everybody, and we have been to secondary heads and I have been out to the different schools. We also do information sessions, certainly before recruitment, to explain what is going on to students. We have gone into assemblies, I have been out as well personally, as well as my mentor team - there is not that many of us to do all of it - but we have meet with maybe even just one student that wants to know more about it and small groups of students as well as large assemblies. We have also engaged with the 14 to 16 programme with the ones that are accessing Highlands College, because they may have missed out, so we have focused on those students as well, as well as obviously we access Highlands College information sessions for all the students across their campus so that that message gets out there. But yes, certainly the careers teachers are our main connection, because whenever we have got new developments, it is really important, but I can also be quite a facilitator from working with industry, so I can feed back into ... I am out there with employers and what they are looking for for students, which is really helpful as well for them to know what they are looking for.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You sort of talked a little bit about what you want to do in the future and then trying to get up to 350 students on the Tracker scheme. Up to now, how has this all been funded and what is your future plans in terms of funding to get up to that number, that 350?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
The funding was provided in the Medium Term Financial Plan and the additional funding required to expand the scheme will be included in the next Medium Term Financial Plan. It is part of and parcel of the skills strategy, of which this is just one component, so it will be dependent on obviously the next States debate.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
The current funding has been enough to fund ... you have had enough money within that current funding to be able to do what you have done to date, yes?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture: Yes.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, okay.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Do not forget that the funding for expansion at Highlands was a separate growth bid anyway, so the training side would have been covered under that, am I right in thinking that?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
Additional funding, yes, went into Highlands. Some of the funding came in through Back to Work initiatives, because obviously the jobs for 16 year-olds were not around any more, so we needed to fund the additional numbers at Highlands College.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So where will the funding for a new skills centre come from? Would that be a growth bid?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
The funding for a new skills centre is already in the Capital Development Plan.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Okay. Just going back a little bit, I am just trying to go through all the questions we have - we have missed one or 2 - in terms of the skills shortages, you deal with parts of the industry. Have you had the opportunity yet to deal with specific skill shortages for any of those like the hospitality industry have got? I mean, you mentioned the key before, for example ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
The care programme is obviously a direct result of that feedback, yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Of an industry coming to you and saying ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, and we needed to respond, so the care programme was developed specifically for the industry because the regulations in care are changing, and then the hospitality and management programme is linked to the hospitality industry. We need to raise the profile of hospitality in Jersey and look at trying to grow out own hospitality managers, which should recruit new local people into the industry as well, so that was a really key area and that is obviously being worked on. That is how we will approach any new industries.
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture:
I think that was a really good example of responding to industry and industry approach. They are struggling to recruit the right people, they have identified a gap. How do we get local people into junior management? Penny is not the sole worker in that, but she put a lot of work into getting commitment from industry, because it is all right industry saying: "Yes, this is what we want" but you want to see that commitment as well and getting all those people in the same room alongside the college with a viable programme and now receiving applications I think is a really positive sign.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think that is where Trackers can excel, as they can be flexible in that way, can respond to specific needs at specific times ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes, I think so. Yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
... rather than having a set agenda year on year on year?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
It is really important, I feel, as well for as we are moving into different industry areas and also it is about our students as well and making sure that their needs are met as well, so it is looking at that individual and the employer and the industry sector.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Just looking at apprenticeship schemes in the whole, and again, it is a phrase I quite like, this quality over quantity. Would it be possible to not have the other apprenticeship schemes and just have the one apprenticeship scheme, Tracker scheme, with the mentors idea ...
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
There will only be one apprenticeship scheme, because the apprenticeship scheme that was run out of the Economic Development Department is being run down. I am not sure ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes, it finished this summer.
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is finished now, so this is the last tranche. The other schemes that you are talking about are not necessarily schemes in the same way. It is often Highlands College meeting a particular demand for an industry, so, for example, there might be employees who are facing new sets of regulations, maybe the electrical industry et cetera, so it is not an apprenticeship as such, it is a relationship between the college and the employers to deliver particular training courses that those people need at that particular time, so there may already be trained people.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Would there not be any benefit even in those circumstances having it augmented through certain schemes or do you think that is just not feasible?
Director of Education, Sport and Culture:
It is probably not necessary. You have to get value from it and the value of having mentors is in maintaining and motivating them and the commitment of both the apprentice and the employer. When an employer approaches Highlands College and says: "We would like you to put on this course for employees" they are already pretty well motivated, they are already part of the industry, so it is really about keeping their skills up-to-date. It is a slightly different thing. I would say the mentor approach has been exceptionally successful, not just in this vein, but also even with Advance to Work. The whole approach is now proven, but I think you can see that the passion and commitment of the person who is leading the scheme plays an essential part in this as well and you must never underestimate that.
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: In a short timescale.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
I think in closing ... I do not know if you have finished, have you, Constable?
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Just on the qualifications itself, at the end, what is the level 2, level 3 that you reach? I mean, you get a formal certificate, qualification to take to an employer that you have received and ...
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes, the level 2 and level 3.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
You are aiming to get them at level 3, all apprentices?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
The aspiration is often level 3, and there is times where the industry, that is not where it is at, it is level 2 is perfectly ...
The Connétable of St. Martin : That is all you need?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, but the aspiration is level 3 for as many sectors as possible, because that is not only good for the employers and the industry, but it is also good for the student for their future, wherever that might take them. So yes, there is lots of development still for Trackers, that we want to develop the standards and frameworks and things like that, but we are still very early days and so there is our own inhouse future plan as well.
[15:00]
The Connétable of St. Martin :
The local ... I know this is 5 years for qualification, but do you find you get other students with the 5 years but they are not local, Portuguese, Polish, other people who come to the Island, not born on the Island?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme: Yes, with their residency, but yes.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
They have got the 5 years, so you say local people, but that means 5 years?
Manager, Trackers - The Apprentice Programme:
Yes, because we also get students, schoolchildren that have come to the Island during their school career as well, so yes.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Just I suppose one umbrella question I think for the Minister, and I would be wrong if I did not ask it, how do you see Trackers actually helping or assisting with reducing immigration levels over the forthcoming 3 or 4 years of this, you know, coming out of a recession, hopefully economically looking at a better place?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
That is a big question and it involves other departments, the Chief Minister, the Population Office et cetera. I do not think I can really say anything other than the more we train our young residentially-qualified people or entitled to work people properly and to be super-employable, the more we can do that, it just is logical that it will reduce the pressure from industry to bring in unqualified not registered labour and that can only be a good thing. It is a long-term aspiration that we are working at. This is not something that we are going to do in the next couple of years, but over a long-ish period of time, which is why I am very, very keen on expanding the size of it to 350 and I hope the next Minister will have even greater aspiration to take it further than that. There is a finite limit, obviously there is bound to be, but we have not got near that yet and we do not think 350 will be the finite limit, but we are doing our best. What I can say is I am very proud of one thing, and it was something that I discussed with Andrew and Penny and have in the past, and that is that to be successful, an apprenticeship scheme like this has to be perceived by both employers and employers as having real value. I think the buzz is now really starting to work within sectors of the employers and within sectors of students and I am very proud that in a relatively short space of time, Penny has done such a good job, and ably supported by Andy, where this is starting to be the thing that if you are not going to go to university, this is starting to be: "Well, you should really try and get on the Trackers scheme, because this is going to make it easier for you to get a job at the end or move within an industry." It is getting that buzz of real value and that is probably one of the most difficult things to achieve, particularly when you are going to such a new concept in such a short space of time from what it was before, to have established it in such a short space of time and to get it ... because this is what will anchor this kind of apprenticeship scheme for the longer term, is getting it perceived as being of real value, aspirational value for both students, and employers will then want to employ as a preference in the future those young people that have been through the Trackers apprenticeship scheme successfully and have the t-shirt to prove it at the end or whatever. I am being a bit flippant about t-shirt: it is properly documented, tracked, as Trackers is, and this is something of real value and I think we have already made a big difference and I think we need to continue to build on that difference that has already been made.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
You have said it 4 or 5 times there, real value, and obviously success, aspiration, but in terms of real value - and I know our Minister for Treasury always likes real value - have you had conversations or negotiations and discussions with him about further funding for the scheme, obviously at an earlier stage maybe than the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan), because that is a little bit away yet?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Yes, it is. The process that happens is that at Mario's level with the Corporate Management Board of the States of Jersey, they have early-stage discussions about future growth bids of one variety or another. I think that is fairly common knowledge that that is the process that happens first, it goes through C.M.B. (Corporate Management Board), they vet everything and see what is most likely to have success and what is going to be best value for money for the Island and give a view on it and advise the Council of Ministers. So my current feedback is that ... let us put it this way, I am very hopeful that the next Council of Ministers will be quite supportive of developing an apprenticeship scheme to the 350 level that we are going to be proposing. I cannot really say more than that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Unless you have got anything to add, I think it is probably a good point to wrap this part of the afternoon up, and again, anything else you want to add to that?
Head of Lifelong Learning & Skills, Department of Education, Sport and Culture: I do not think so.
I think the only thing is, Constable, is that the Trackers programme is seen in the context of the broader skills strategy, because when it comes to the next M.T.F.P., the States will need to decide whether that is indeed one of its highest priorities, but at least when the growth bids come in for the new Medium Term Financial Plan, there is a document out there that sets out the policy and direction.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Okay. I will call this part of this afternoon's hearings to a close.
[15:06]