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STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Medium Term Financial Plan
Home Affairs
TUESDAY, 19th JULY 2016
Panel:
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice Chairman) Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John
Witnesses:
The Minister for Home Affairs
Chief Officer
Policy Director
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police Deputy Chief Fire Officer
[09:38]
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):
Everyone settled? Thanks again for waiting. We are just a little bit behind, not too bad. Welcome, everybody, in the gallery as well, all the media here today and some members of the public. Just if you could make sure your phones are turned off before we begin, please. Feel free to pop in and out quietly if you need to. The bathrooms are just down there to the left. This is a public hearing with the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel and we are questioning the Minister for Home Affairs today on the Medium Term Financial Plan. I am Deputy Louise Doublet , I chair the panel. Welcome, Minister, welcome to the officers in this department. We have started, so find a seat
quietly, thank you. We are aiming to finish ... we will just push it forward by 10 minutes, because we have started 10 minutes late, so we are aiming to finish at 10.40 today. I will let my panel introduce themselves before we begin.
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice Chairman):
Good morning, everyone. Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour , District Petite Longueville.
Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :
Deputy Tracey Vallois of St. John , member of the panel.
Scrutiny Officer:
I am Mick Robbins, the Scrutiny Officer.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Minister, if you could introduce yourself and your officers.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am Deputy Kristina Moore , Minister for Home Affairs.
Policy Director:
I am Helen Miles , Policy Director, Community and Constitutional Affairs.
Chief Officer:
Tom Walker , Chief Officer for Community and Constitutional Affairs.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Rob Bastable, the Deputy Chief Officer for States of Jersey Police.
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
Paul Brown, Deputy Chief Fire Officer.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, lovely. Minister, before we begin, have you read and understood the statement in front of you?
The Minister for Home Affairs: I have, thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, before we begin, I just wanted to say how grateful we are for all the briefings that we have had and - I have said this to you before - all of the information that we have had throughout the last few months, that you have kept us informed of the journey that you have been on in terms of looking at your department. It has really helped us with understanding the financial plans here, so we are really grateful for that and hope you are finding the communication has been good from us as well and hope it continues.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely, and I completely concur with that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so I am going to open with 1001 Days, because I know that Dr. Miles is here today. I was looking at the addition to the financial plan and we were not quite sure about where exactly the funding was coming from, because I know this is cross-departmental and you have said it funds from different places. On page 67 of the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) Addition, there is a section that says: "Services for children, early interventions" and that seemed to be the 1001 Days things, but it is under Health and Social Services. Can you maybe just tell us about how 1001 Days is being funded and which department's budget it is coming from, please?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay. So as you say, there is a cross-departmental budget and it is coming out of this sum that you have highlighted. £385,000 of that sum is going towards 1001 Days specifically.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so it is £1.9 million in 2016 and then £3.4 million by 2019, so only part of that is specifically for 1001 Days, is that what you have said?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. We are checking that we are all talking ... we have got a slight discrepancy in the pages.
Policy Director:
I think we have got a slight discrepancy in pages.
The Minister for Home Affairs: There you go.
Chief Officer:
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
If it is in any more detail on any of the other pages, do let me know.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes. No, it is not that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Are you looking at this one maybe?
The Minister for Home Affairs: No, because it should be ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : The annex.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is an H.S.S. (Health and Social Security) sum. It is not that one, it is ...
Chief Officer:
No, there is £1.65 million held in a central growth provision.
The Deputy of St. John : Page 143.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that contingencies?
The Deputy of St. John :
Page 143 shows the central allocation earmarked for initiatives to support vulnerable children.
Chief Officer: That is it.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, £1.65 million. There we are, so that is it.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It is not the easiest document, I was going to say.
Policy Director: Different versions.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We have all got different versions, yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So is that table C you have got there?
The Minister for Home Affairs: That is right, in appendices.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so I am trying to understand then how this interacts with where it says: "Health and Social Services funding, £1.9 million for 2016 and £3.4 million by 2019" and then there is this other one. Can you explain how ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The Health and Social Services work is completely separate.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Oh, is it?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is the work that they are doing in relation to Social Services and procuring more social workers and improving Children's Services, so it is something completely separate.
Policy Director:
We have the Children's Services improvement plan, which is really centred around children's social care, whereas the £1.6 million here is more focused on the early intervention, which picks the 1001 Days. That is where some of the actions that are highlighted in the plan, that is where some of the funding will come from to take some of that forward.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. So when you say "the plan" do you mean the action plan?
Policy Director:
The 1001 Critical Days action plan.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I do have it with me as well.
Policy Director:
Because the 1001 Critical Days spans kind of everything, including education, health and community and constitutional affairs. There are bits and pieces around that kind of intercept to deliver the whole, if you like.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, okay. So just to clarify, that funding on page 67, none of that is going to a department, it is just this £1.6 million?
[09:45]
Policy Director:
Some of that will impact on the work that we are doing, but it is not coming into Community and Constitutional Affairs, that is from the Health budget.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so for each year, so for 2017, 2018 and 2019, each of those years there will be £1.6 million and that is just for the 1001 Days action plan?
Policy Director:
Not just within the 1001 Days action plan, it is part of a suite of measures that has been prepared through the Children and Vulnerable Adults Policy Group to ensure that some of the actions from outstanding reports are carried forward and really so that we can maintain the momentum before any funding comes out that is allocated by the Jersey Care Inquiry.
The Deputy of St. John :
You said that it was £385,000, and that is every year or just the first year, it may go up or how would that work?
Policy Director:
The £385,000 is what will be allocated each year after that £1.65 million.
The Deputy of St. John : Okay.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So £385,000 of that £1.6 million is just for the 1001 Days. All right, I am with you now.
Policy Director:
So the 1001 and the early intervention initiative, so although it is 1001, it might be that it is going towards family intervention or Parent Champion. So it is about developing services, early intervention services for children.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
But those that we have spoken about, the universal antenatal programme, breastfeeding initiatives and other aspects of the action plan ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, I was looking at your action plan and lots of the actions that you would like to achieve in there say at the end: "Funding required." Of those, which ones have you managed to achieve the funding for, please?
Policy Director:
At the moment, the funding to deliver all of these is tied up into the £385,000.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so it has not been allocated to the specific projects yet?
Policy Director: No.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. So when will those decisions be made?
Policy Director:
Those decisions will be made probably towards the end of the year. We had a priority and the priority really is about the universal programme, so that the universal antenatal and the other priorities are about moving forward with the public health nature of the 1001, so that is tied into the breastfeeding initiatives. Jersey Childcare Trust and the Breastfeeding Steering Group this year are focusing on women returning to work, so working closely with employers through the Chamber of Commerce and Institute of Directors to try and improve rates of breastfeeding for women returning to the workplace.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, that is interesting, because there are things for vulnerable families in it already, I think, so you are focusing on the universal services available to families irrespective of their income?
Policy Director: Absolutely.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, that is interesting. Thank you, Deputy Vallois, who has just pointed out page 58, which again might be slightly different. It does have some more detail. I think, Minister, you were starting to identify there in a bit more detail. Just if you could elaborate maybe on some of this, if you do know some of the specific projects.
Policy Director:
We are on the right page now. The continued development of family services and early intervention initiatives, the second action on the plan is to undertake a review of the operating model at the Bridge and Samarès. Dr. Cathy Hamer, who is the newly-appointed chair of the Early Years and Childcare Partnership, is undertaking that. The reason that we have taken that approach, that is really kind of the transformation piece. We know there is really excellent work going on at the Bridge, we know there is excellent work going on at Samarès, but what we want to do is understand what other needs the community have out west or in town to make sure that we are delivering what the community needs, so that development of family centres and early intervention initiatives are not just about necessarily a bricks and mortar option out west, it might be that we develop a parent outreach service that is based somewhere that is accessible to the whole Island.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It does say on the action plan that there was a bid from the Health Department for £50,000 and then £100,000 per year. Has that been achieved?
Policy Director:
Yes. That has been achieved in there and that was put in a little while ago under P.82, and it was to do the follow-up after the Samarès pilot was evaluated.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, lovely. So that will not have to come from your ... what was the figure?
The Minister for Home Affairs: £385,000.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
£385,000. I need to write that down.
Policy Director:
I think the point is it is just to make sure that the money is being spent in the most effective way, hence the review. The other ones on there from a 1001 ... yes, it is about the action plan, certainly the antenatal preparation, the perinatal mental health and the early literacy. As you will know, the National Children's Bureau are the implementation partner for significant private investment from UBS Optimus Foundation and they have already started implementing the early literacy. It is called: "Making it Real." Research into that programme has just come out through the Early Intervention Foundation this week and it showed it to be a highly successful and highly impacting programme, so we are quite lucky that they are here doing that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
How long is that committed for?
Policy Director:
It is an initial 3-year commitment, but the approach that they are taking is about capacity-building, so they have already trained another 60 people in Making it Real, and that is not just in the education sector, it is in the private nursery sector as well. They are also taking what is called an outcomes- based accountability approach, which is another successful approach they have used in other areas to make sure that we are focusing on the ends and then working towards the means. We have had up to, I think, 65 people trained in that method and we are going to be running workshops to promote breastfeeding, to promote early literacy and the like. So they are not here and then disappearing, they are going to make sure they have got that capacity moving forward.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes. So when you are talking about the outcomes, they will be tracking to see if it is having a positive impact, if it is value for money?
Policy Director:
Absolutely. We will be looking at really how much we are doing, what we are doing, what is the quality. The question is is anybody better off at the end of that? So we will be focusing on that work with them. Then some public health campaigns towards the end of the year will be around alcohol in pregnancy and pre-pregnancy and certainly Prison! Me! No Way! are starting to do an alcohol campaign and pregnancy and early years will be involved in that as well.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. So just with this £385,000 a year, is that going to be enough to fund all of the projects here in the action plan?
Policy Director:
I think that is a difficult question to answer at this point, because in some of these areas we are still at kind of the discovery phase. So we know what we are likely to need, but as the outcome of the reviews and the focus groups and we ask people and we gather evidence about what is working and what is not, it might be that some of the things we can do differently will not require new funding, but just maybe different ways of working. One of the strengths, I think, of this approach is about working in partnership and making sure ... I call it a "join the dots strategy" really, because there is so much good work going on and our task is really to bring that together.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
A good example of that is perhaps the work item about registering children coming into the Island. That is something that would be within the Social Security budget, because they are the people who do that, and it is just adding another layer of process and another layer of communication to the work that we do. It is really about awareness and just adopting a new method within existing working practices.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Minister, as you are going through this process - and as Dr. Miles said - in building in funding as you go along, if you do find that this amount is not enough and there are things that you feel really should be prioritised, where will you access additional funding to get ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is why the prioritisation has been conducted prior to the M.T.F.P., because obviously we are mindful that this is the main opportunity for spending. There will always be contingencies as a last resort if something is deemed absolutely necessary, because there is always new research, new thinking coming forward and so that might be an opportunity. As Dr. Miles has mentioned already, there is a great deal of interest, which we are really grateful for, from the private sector, particularly the foundation that has been mentioned already and there are other people coming forward and saying: "How can we help? We believe in this and we understand this and we would like to contribute also."
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So you are fully utilising those private sources of donations?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. Just to confirm, if you felt that there was something which was quite important, you would ask for some of the contingencies to fund that, that is something that you would attempt to do?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That would be an option that would be open to us if it was necessary, but as I said, Dr. Miles has carried out the prioritisation study and so we hope that everything should fall into place.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
It may sound like an odd question from me, but in the last M.T.F.P. contingencies, it was questionable whether they were contingencies, because many of them were allocated. I just want to know, in this plan, are the contingencies unallocated?
Policy Director:
Do you mean the whole plan?
The Deputy of St. John :
It is probably best to ask specifically to the actual £1.65 million, if you know whether they are, because the other central will be ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The £1.65 million, as I understand, is allocated, yes.
The Deputy of St. John :
So you are already aware what you are going to be spending that money on over the next 3 years, okay.
That is where the £385,000 is coming from, that you know that is allocated. I think only one more thing. You were saying that there is still lots to do and projects to work on and on the action plan it said that the task force will only be in existence until the end of this year. Is that still the case or will you be extending it to facilitate the achieving of the action points?
Policy Director:
The task force came into being in kind of the interregnum of the Early Years and Childcare Partnership. It has not really been fully functional since about 2013, 2014. One of the actions was to appoint the chair of that body and that has happened. Again, Dr. Cathy Hamer is picking up the chair of the Early Years and Childhood Partnership. One of the things that we are considering, which will be for discussion in September, will be that the 1001 task force merges and transitions into the Early Years and Childhood Partnership. The reason we say that is it is the same people sitting around the table, but the Early Years and Childcare Partnership is much, much broader and it comes across sort of strategy, tax, all sorts of things. So it just seems like a very logical progression to have a seamless transition, but the 1001 Critical Days will be a key workstream of the Early Years and Childhood Partnership, which will be divided by age, so it will be kind of conception to the age of 2 and then 3 going forwards.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Dr. Miles , as you are head of the task force ... and how did you introduce yourself, Policy ...
Policy Director:
I am the Policy Director.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So you will be in that role still within the department, so you can still oversee?
Policy Director:
Yes, but sitting under the Early Years and Childhood Partnership, maintaining the links with Community and Constitutional Affairs.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So it will still be quite seamless then if you are still overseeing. Okay. Would anyone like to ask any specific things?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think you have covered things quite thoroughly, Chair.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I think because this action plan is so very detailed, it has got all the timings - and we are very grateful for this - I wonder if we could arrange perhaps an update maybe in a couple of months or maybe 3 months' time just to keep updated on the progress. Thank you very much. Dr. Miles , if you do need to go, I think ... I am not saying leave, but ...
Policy Director:
I think I will stay for this section.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, it is completely up to you. Okay, over to the prison now, I think.
The Deputy of St. John :
The next question is around the prison. We note that there is prison improvement works, phase 6, which is on page 132. We understand it is to be completed with money from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund, if I remember it off the top of my head. How can that be guaranteed, because as I understand it, the money is not there at the moment; is that correct?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. We have to hope that there may be some money put into the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund. It was a method to encourage this item to be maintained in this M.T.F.P. I am hopeful that we will achieve it.
The Deputy of St. John :
Okay. What happens if the money does not materialise?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Unfortunately it would have to lapse into the next M.T.F.P., because of the way that the Capital Allocation Fund is managed. We have made several representations to the Capital Allocation Fund to include this item, but you will be aware of the way that that fund is operated under the Public Finances Law, there is that restriction, so that a project has to be fully funded prior to its commencement. I think that there are some discussions being held. Obviously it is not something that I am party to, but I have requested that people reconsider the way that fund is managed, because we have large sums of money allocated, but the work is not going ahead, which is rather frustrating when we have what is a relatively small item of work, around £8 million worth of work, that we would very much like to be completed.
So part of it is there?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, none of it has been allocated. There is a fund that holds sums allocated for capital works and the management board - I think it was the management board - discuss and decide which ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I think you had better explain it to me.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, it is a rather complicated process under the Public Finances Law.
[10:00]
Obviously as the legislative Assembly, it would be open to us to ask the Assembly to change that.
The Deputy of St. John :
But we can change that annually anyway, the capital programme, as I understand.
Chief Officer:
Yes. There are perhaps 2 separate things, being the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund. Obviously we have to wait until there are sufficient funds confiscated in order for the prison project to go ahead. The broader point that the Minister is referring to is the point you are familiar with, Deputy Vallois, which is that on the day that the spade goes into the ground there has to be the entire full cost and it just sits there, so if it is a 5-year project, the entire cost of the build over 5 years sits in the fund from day one until day 5. So from a cash management point of view, it is something that could be reconsidered, as to whether there is a different way of managing the capital allocation. But at the moment that is the system and so that means that on the day one that a new school is started, the entire fund is there on day one, even though it might be a 2 or 3-year build. At the moment then in the capital allocation process there, things like schools take a priority over police and prison frontages. You can appreciate that they would.
The Deputy of St. John :
What does it mean though in terms of if you were not to get the money into the fund, you were not able to build during this period of the M.T.F.P., what does it mean in terms of for the prison to work?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Business would continue as usual, which is adequate at the moment, but there are consequences in terms of staffing so that both entrances are staffed and so we would be able to make further efficiencies if the work was undertaken.
The Deputy of St. John :
Will that impact the savings that you have proposed then if ...
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There could potentially be some efficiencies arising if we were able to achieve that capital, but it would be unlikely to be in the lifetime of this M.T.F.P. because the capital project would take a period of time.
Chief Officer:
The prison effectively has 2 ways in and out of the building, which is quite unusual for a prison, normally a prison just has one way in and out, and obviously it is only staffed for one way in and out. If you were to visit the prison at certain times of the day when they are trying to run the visitor facility and you were to try and access the main administration block, perhaps for a meeting with the governor, you may find that you might have to wait for the member of staff to return from the other entrance in order to man that.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just ask the status of this project? Is it the case that the plans are all there and this project is basically ready when the capital is ready to go?
Chief Officer: Yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
That is what we like to hear.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask if it means anything in terms of a requirement to uphold a certain convention or directive or anything that we may be signed up to that will affect that requirement?
Chief Officer:
No, it is just the practical difficulties ...
The Deputy of St. John : Practicalities.
Chief Officer:
... of temporarily running a prison with 2 ways in and out, which is obviously not what anyone would choose to do.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Deputy Maçon, do you want to go on to ...
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Where are we on?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Police station and prison.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Number 3?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Oh, okay. I have been allocated a question. If we are talking about the revenue consequences of the new police station and prison, on page 70 it has been reduced by £0.1 million and I wonder if you could give us a bit more detail about how that has occurred.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes, basically we are renegotiating contracts. We are moving from 3 buildings to one building so we are looking at, for example, our cleaning contract, things like that. It is only £100,000, but we felt we had a duty on us to look at where we could be saving money in terms of less windows to clean than we have got in our 3 buildings now, so it is really around cleaning and things like that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It is £100,000 per year, is that correct?
Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. So how long will that saving be ongoing for then if it is ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
We save the £100,000 each year, because at the moment we have got a certain budget for it and into the future we have less, a reduction in that budget.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, so it is shown each year.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Correct, yes.
The Deputy of St. John :
But initially were the actual requirements for those revenue consequences higher than what is in this current M.T.F.P. now?
Chief Officer:
Yes, because they were costed at a time when we expected the second half of the prison frontage to go ahead with more certainty and so there were revenue implications in maintaining the second half of the frontage that was going to be constructed as well as the costs of maintaining the new police station. So as part of the process when we were looking to refine the plan, we went back and looked at that and said: "Now that we are waiting for the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund to have sufficient funds in it, that is going to be probably a number of years" and so we kind of guesstimated that the time it would then take to build that second part of the frontage probably would not fall in this period in terms of the maintenance costs so much as we had originally planned and so we were able to reduce that element. I think you appreciate there is a bit of estimating in here: how soon would the Criminal Confiscation Fund come, how long would it take to build, how soon would you have to start the maintenance of that new building? So when we did it originally, we had assumed that there would be funds for that capital and it would be up and running in this period. Obviously we have shifted some of those time estimates along and so therefore you do not need the revenue for them.
The Deputy of St. John :
Just to understand then, you are saying you have shifted the timelines. Does that mean eventually you will end up having to spend more anyway?
Chief Officer:
Yes. When the second half of the prison frontage is eventually built using the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund money, then that will need maintaining and so there will be a revenue implication in due course, but what we were doing in reducing it was reducing our estimate of how much of that might fall into this M.T.F.P.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I think that is clear. Are you happy with that? Number 6, new police H.Q. (headquarters). Yes, so on table or page 151, looking at some of the savings, there is one about savings enabled by the new police H.Q. Apart from the cleaning aspects that you have already talked about, can you just give us a bit more detail about what these savings would be?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is things like post. At the moment we have a postal system that delivers to 3 buildings and we only need to do it to one building now. It is mainly the fact that we have got 3 sites and those 3 sites all need to be managed. When we are into one site, we think we can find a £100,000 a year saving by reducing the services that go into the 3 sites, from the previous sites into one site. So post, cleaning ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : It says £155,000 ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
No, that is lower down. £100,000 is the procurement savings. £155,000 is the saving from one post in terms of administration, so we bring all of our staff into one building, so we do not need as many assistants here, so we are losing one post, one F.T.E. (full-time equivalent).
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Right, so the third line down: "Savings enabled by new police headquarters, £155,000 in 2018 and 2019" that is from removing one ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
That is one F.T.E. and the savings around reducing our administration because we are all in one building.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Administration, and then the top line ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
The top line is around contractual work, around cleaning, post and things like that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, that is clear. Thank you.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Will that have much of an impact or will that be carry on business as usual with the operation of the lease?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
I think it will be more efficient, to be honest, because we are all in the same place, so it is one advantage of moving to the new H.Q. Of course it is designed in a more efficient way, so the heating and lighting and things like that we are hoping also will be reduced there.
The Deputy of St. John :
You just mentioned the £100,000 with regards to the central procurement negotiations. Can you explain what that means: "central procurement negotiation"? What does that mean for you as the police?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It means for us, for example, with the cleaning, we have looked and at the moment we employ our own cleaners in part of our estate, which is the main headquarters; we contract out in Summerland in the other part. We are now looking to see if there is a more efficient way of bringing that all together to find a more efficient way of doing it overall, rather than employing our own, and using contracted staff. But of course we have our own staff there, so we need to be careful we look after them, but moving into 2018 and 2019, we are going to review those contracts, because our contract with the people who clean Summerland, for example, ends in mid-2017, so we can go back in mid- 2017 and say: "We are in a new building now and we have got our own cleaners there. Do we need to renew our contract at all or is there some sort of balance we can find between contracted cleaning and our own staff cleaning?"
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so you have got some of your cleaning done by a company and some is cleaners directly employed by the department and you are thinking that you might not need the company that come in and you could just do it with your ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. We are looking at the cheapest way of doing it. We do not know what that is going to be yet. We have done work initially to say until the contract expires we will maintain our current position, but of course the cleaning contract for Summerland is completely different to the new H.Q., so there are some savings there, we think. When it comes to 2017, when our contract expires for the contractual cleaners, that is when we will look at is there a more efficient way of doing this and a cheaper way of having our buildings cleaned. It is windows, floors, it is also vehicles, so we are looking at vehicle cleaning at the same time.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
How certain are you that these savings will be achieved?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
That is one area of it, so we estimate we will find some savings there, because we are moving from 3 buildings to one. We are also looking our postal delivery and how that can be made more efficient. It links into the review of the back office, which is further down on the savings. We are looking at our whole facilities in terms of do we need the type of facilities support that we had for 3 buildings in one building in the future.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So still on this central procurement then, that is the postal arrangements is included in that?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is, yes, and cleaning and there are a couple of others. They have slipped my mind at the moment, but it is just the general running of these buildings that cost us money at the moment, which we believe will be reduced as we move into one building.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask then with regards to how you contract out from the police side of things for things like cleaning and all those type of things, who it is that manages the contract and whether there is that expertise there to ensure that there is value for money?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
The work is done by a facilities manager, so we have a full-time facilities manager who deals with all of these contracts.
The Deputy of St. John :
Do you have any linkage in with central procurement?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: I do not know.
The Deputy of St. John :
Okay. Just trying to understand how everything works.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Right, where are we? I think that has covered that one, has it not? Who is taking number 5? Sorry, I did swap you around by mistake before.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Okay, so again, still States of Jersey Police. Just for the record, with the new operating model and restructure, so we are looking at about ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : The second line down.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, the second line down, so ultimately by 2019 we are looking at a saving of £385,000. Explain to us how that is going to work.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Okay. I think we have given a presentation to some of the Members. We are looking to introduce a better way of managing demand against resource, so introducing what we call a T.H.R.I.V.E. (Threat, Harm, Risk, Investigation, Vulnerability and Engagement) concept. So what will happen is a call will come into the headquarters and we apply the 5 principles. That means that instead of sending a unit straight away to every call, we apply the T.H.R.I.V.E. principle and it may be we do not need to send a unit to that because the person does not want someone immediately, they may want someone the next day, they may want to speak to a specialist, they may want to speak to a community officer. So instead of the system we have now, which is we take a call and everyone goes - or someone will go - now we apply T.H.R.I.V.E. principles and we think that will reduce what our demand is by up to 25 per cent to 30 per cent.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
So will that mean there will be a reduction in the staffing rotas or how ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. What happens is because we have now done some work around when our peaks and troughs are in terms of demand, we can apply our resources much more efficiently to those peaks and troughs, so it will mean ... at the moment we have a shift pattern which applies a certain resource at certain times of the day. We are going to introduce a system which is much more flexible, which allows us to apply the resources when it is busy. So we know that is Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening up until 2.00 a.m., 3.00 a.m. in the morning. It peaks, troughs from 4.00 a.m. down to 7.00 a.m. or 8.00 a.m. in the morning, so we reduce our staff numbers when the demand is not there. By doing that, we are able to reduce our numbers.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I am just trying to understand the figures on this. We have been very well-informed about the details of how it will work, but trying to apply that to the figures, it says a saving of £55,000 in 2017 ...
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: That is right.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
... £255,000 in 2018 and £385,000 in 2019.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
So what we are saying is because ... and there are other things at places as well. Because we are introducing mobile data as well, which reduces the supervision that is needed, so the aim is to maintain our frontline resource, that coming out of our T.H.R.I.V.E. model is a new operating model, and that operating model is around demand versus resource, so what we are saying is if we apply our resource much more effectively to our demand, then we do not need as much resource.
[10:15]
There is not wasted resource there. For example, at the moment we have an overlap on our shifts of 2 or 3 hours in the afternoon. That is not when our demand is, our demand is in the evening, so we are moving our resources to where the demand is greatest and thereby finding efficiencies.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So it is £55,000 and then it jumps quite drastically. What is the reason for that?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
The reason for that is because we are trying to do this through natural wastage - it is an awful expression - but people who are retiring. We know when our headcount drop will occur, so we are applying our savings when we know that headcount drop will happen and it is linked to when our staff will leave the organisation, mainly through retirement.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So you are quite certain of making those savings then?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: We are, yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Sorry, Deputy Maçon.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
So just to clarify then, so they stop at 7 posts. Those are uniformed policemen or are they administrative staff?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
No, they are frontline staff. When I say frontline staff, they will be officers.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask, in terms of putting in this new model, which sounds positive to a certain extent, with everything there is always these potential risks. It is understanding the flexibility that you may have in terms of if the demand should rise.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
Yes. There could well be a rise in demand, but the operating model is introduced to flex when demand rises or falls. I suppose the risk, if you are talking about risk, there is a risk around an increase in financial crime, which we are going to have address, cyber-crime and that sort of area. There may be some recommendations come of the Care Inquiry, which may require us to apply resources to areas that are recommended in there. Of course managing this sort of change, it brings
its own risks as well because of the danger of demotivation, and a risk of reducing supervision, it is obviously there. But we are mitigating that risk by making sure that, as I said earlier, the right people are in the right places in the right time, rather than having people in places where we do not need them at the wrong time. So we have done a huge amount of work around our demand data, so we are pretty sure we know where we need people to be, when we need them there.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
You said that there will be 7 frontline officers through natural wastage, so I am assuming that is retirement and so on.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is there a set number of officers that you should not really go below that number in terms of safety for the Island?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
That is a very difficult question. I think no, there is not a certain number. You cannot put your finger on the number and say you cannot drop below it. At the moment we have 213 staff or we have got enough budget for 213 staff. We recruited last week, so we will be going up again come October. I do not think there is a figure you can put your finger on. There is though what we call a minimum resource in terms of frontline delivery for shift. For example, on Friday night, I want to see 7 or 8 cops out on the ground, but on a Monday morning or Tuesday morning, I might be quite happy with 4 or 5. So that is how we are matching demand against the resource. But of course there has to be a point where at 4.00 a.m. in the morning, when history and data shows this is very quiet, of course there is a propensity for something serious to happen at 4.00 a.m. at the morning and you must have the resource available. So we use our on-call resources if we need to, if we encounter, for example, a firearms call at 4.00 a.m. in the morning we have those resources there to deal with that sort of serious incident. So just because demand drops quite low at 4.00 a.m. or 5.00 a.m. in the morning does not mean you do not need the resource. You need it in case something serious happens.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Minister, I think you did mention previously to us in a briefing that you had gone back to other Ministers and been quite clear about safety for the Island and what funding was required. Are you satisfied then that the service to the public in terms of frontline officers in the police, that there is no safety risks with reducing the funding in this way?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, we have considered this very carefully and over a period of time now. We all agreed that we are comfortable with what we are putting forward in terms of a plan. Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, thank you. Anyone else on that? Shall we move on then?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, okay.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Seven, is it?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Okay, you touched on this briefly, but I am just going into a bit more detail for the public record. The mobile tech project is ultimately looking at saving £500,000 and up to 9 posts will go. I wonder if you could just explain ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Maybe just linking to the numbers, as we have been very well informed.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
You know what the mobile data project is, because that finds efficiencies in terms of allowing officers to remotely access our databases on the ground. It means they do not have to keep returning to the H.Q. It also reduces duplication, because once you have inputted into the system, those details are in the system and therefore additionally reduces supervision. A lot of our second line supervisors spend a lot of their time supervising paperwork, but if it is an automated system, you cannot get it wrong, because you are not allowed to proceed until you have got it right, so it reduces that supervision. The same issue with the reduction in terms of a headcount loss, that is also found through retirements and leavers, so we estimate we lose, through retirements or through other reasons, about 12 staff a year, 12 officers a year. So we have made a headcount plan which shows our reduction in headcount over the 3 years to the end of 2019, matched against what we need to reduce in terms of our budget. They sort of go parallel down to the end of 2019.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Just so I can understand this figure, what proportion of it is reduction in posts as opposed to efficiency savings?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
The savings identified here are all post savings, although we will be more efficient, but these are post savings.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Exactly. I was just going to say that you are able to do that by the force being more efficient as an organisation.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: That is how we can save the money.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So you are not envisaging any redundancies at all through that trial?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
These are all police officer posts. Well, not all of our mobile data posts are police officers, because there are criminal justice areas impacted by this. An absolutely last resort is redundancy, so no, not in this part of the plan, we are not anticipating any redundancy, no.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I just ask, because it is mobile technology, in terms of the risks around - I am going to be known as the one that asked about the risks - the actual mobile technology and the ability for your workforce to not get bogged down in the issues around firewalls and all those types of things, so could you explain?
Yes. This is not new technology. There are a number of forces that use it in the U.K. (United Kingdom). We have been over to Cambridge, in particular London, which introduced this technology last year. In terms of the risks of the technology not working, we are not concerned about that.
The Deputy of St. John : It is a known?
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is a known risk, yes, so we have mitigated that. Of course as we move through the project, the risk register in the project will identify risks that are highlighted. We have found in some of the pre- work we have done that most of our staff are pretty technology aware, our new staff, anyway. People like me struggle with it a bit, but most of our new staff and our frontline staff are well aware of the technology, so we are not concerned about the human factor, but of course with all this technology, there is certain risk attached to it, which is why we are working with eGov and making sure that everything we do is linked into the work they are doing as well. We have a project manager who has come from eGov now who is working on the project for us.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Shall we move on? Okay.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Did you cover all the points in question 12 on the police section? I think you did, Chairman.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I might come back to that. May I go through number 8?
The Deputy of St. John :
This is with regards to, as we understand, the Police Authority and the emergency planning, and it states on page 151 that there is a realignment of budgets. He explained what that means in terms of realigning the budgets and what it will look like.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay. Well, the Emergency Planning Officer is something that has already occurred, and I think we have discussed that in the past. The Chief Fire Officer has taken on the responsibilities for emergency planning and that has led to some efficiencies, which has led to the reduction here, and also the way the Police Authority is helpfully constructed at the moment has led to some ... they do
not spend the budget that they have fully, and we envisage that we can return this money through that situation.
The Deputy of St. John :
Okay. Can you explain what the split is then? You are stating on here it is £100,000, and you said the Emergency Planning Officer has already gone.
Chief Officer:
Yes. I think the majority of it is the saving through the restructuring of emergency planning.
The Deputy of St. John :
Okay. But that has already happened?
Chief Officer: Yes.
The Deputy of St. John :
Okay, and this is just a continuation?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer(?):
This is somewhere in the region of £60,000.
Chief Officer: Yes.
The Deputy of St. John : Okay. Thank you.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. Shall we have Customs?
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes, okay. Again on that table, on page 151, there is the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service redesign, and I just wonder if you could tell us, Minister, what is changing?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The Jersey Customs, that is a collaborative project. The Police and Customs are looking at shared work that can help them to be more efficient by collaborating in the intelligence area.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
We have 2 covert operations at the moment, one in Customs and one in policing. It does not make sense, so we collaborate around that. We are going to get to one covert ops room and that will save us one post.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
It says £150,000 in 2017 and again 2018, and then it jumps to £250,000 in 2019. What is the reason for that extra saving?
Chief Officer:
The rest of it is around Customs and Immigration pushing even further their multifunctional officer model beyond the current setup, and that enables them, in a similar way to the Police, to use their officers even more flexibly than they do already in supply and demand.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
So that part is not happening until 2019?
Chief Officer:
That is right, because there is an evolution. We felt also that it was sensible to take our time with that element because of the current border situation, and we wanted to make sure that we get that right.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Can I just ask, as with sometimes different elements of the States Department - the classic one is the Ambulance and the Fire trying to work together when they are trying to consolidate these types of facilities - in this case what are the risks in being able to achieve the particular saving?
Chief Officer:
Between Customs and Police?
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
I think the risk is quite minimal. The risk at the moment is you have 2 separate covert ops rooms, and there is a risk called "blue on blue", that when Customs will be doing some work, we are doing some work. We met with Customs and said: "That does not make sense that the people we are dealing with in terms of our covert ops are the same people." Having a joint ops room when we are sharing our intelligence and sharing our operational deployment obviously makes sense. I do not think there is a risk there at all in terms of operational delivery.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then what will happen with the facility? Will it be given back to Property Holdings?
Chief Officer:
No. The current police facility is within the current estate, which will then get consolidated with the new Police H.Q. Current Customs facilities within their current estate as well. It will all be consolidated into one place. The police facility will get returned along with every other former police building.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Shall we move on? The next line on the savings here is Fire and Rescue Service, which again you have briefed us on in your operating model. Just looking at this one saving there in 2019 of £150,000, is there any further detail on how that will be achieved?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
Yes. The new operating model is a number of different things that come together, but ultimately you can see there that there are 2 F.T.E. that facilitate that saving. What that means is that we will not have a dedicated prevention team, but the J.F.R. (Jersey Fire and Rescue) 2020 strategy, which is our new operating model, if you like, that we want to see delivered by the end of the M.T.F.P. 2 period, pushes that work to the front line officers. We have been engaging with them for some time. They are keen, they are happy. They deliver all of that front line work now. They are the source of some very good ideas. One of the changes that we are making is they are going to take on leave responsibility. We are reworking our strategies.
[10:30]
We have 4 risk management strategies: prevent, protect, prepare and respond, obviously, which is the one everybody thinks about and knows about. The prevent strategy will be led by officers on the front line, focusing on our 4 priorities: children and young people, older people, vulnerable people, and then volume customers and workplaces. That is about trying to get a downward trend in fires, particularly in the home, but a downward trend in fires generally. The firefighters on the front line will lead that work from an administrative and management perspective, as well as just delivering.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Those 2 posts, then, does that make up the entirety of that saving?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that via redundancies?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
That would be a last resort. Obviously, we would like to think that turnover of staff will deliver that for us, if you like, but clearly that is an option. It is a risk management position that we have taken.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
If it does have to be redundancies, will there be extra costs involved?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
Absolutely. That is always going to be the case if it has to be, let us say, a voluntary redundancy or a voluntary early retirement package. Normally there is a cost involved there that would not be if someone were just to naturally choose to stop.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Will that lessen the saving, or would that come from somewhere central?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer: Yes. There is a redundancy pot.
Chief Officer:
Yes. That would come from the central restructuring.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Thank you.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask what it will mean? You state that the prevention side of things is moving to front line.
Deputy Chief Fire Officer: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
What does that mean for the everyday service that they currently deliver? Is it that they have capacity, or is it more work on top of that?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
It is more work, but again one part of this strategy - lots of things coming together - for example, is that we are re-establishing our volunteer team. Again, that is a risk management strategy. If I can give you an example, one of the things that our firefighters on the front line do now is go to schools. At every key stage, they go into the schools and they talk and they try to instil lifelong lessons, effectively, and make that investment early on. One of the risks is, of course, that a fire happens, so that fire crew has to go. That is unavoidable. But if we have trained volunteers - we go through all the relevant recruitment processes there anyway - they can keep that session running and make sure it continues to be a valuable session, even though it has the added value of full-time firefighters with their fire engine there, and that is always something that is a bit of a draw that is an important early thing to do. We can keep it going with the use of our volunteers. Equally, home fire safety visits. We deliver somewhere in the region of 200 home fire safety visits a year at the moment because of the capacity on the operational watches. My intention is that that will be 500 home fire safety visits a year by 2019. We are not going to do that by just making the same people work faster. Again, it is about re-establishing our volunteer team, working better. It does not have to be a firefighter with many years' experience of fighting fires to go and help someone make decisions about fire risk management in their home. That is some of the stuff that we are doing as well. A lot more flexibility around the way we use our retained firefighters, so our on-call firefighters. They will be much more part of our planning in future, whereas at the moment I think they are very much a contingent capacity.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Where will you draw volunteers from? Are you hopeful of getting some interest?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
We had a volunteer team before, so our first route is to go back to those people who used to volunteer for us and see whether they would be interested in carrying on. That is underway. It is proving successful, I am told, in the early stages. We do not need a very big team of volunteers. If we got to the realms of 30 to 35 people, I think that would be absolutely fantastic if we can get to that point. Yes, that is underway. I would like to think that by, let us say, September/October, we have the core team in place and we have started the training. That is the plan.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is it having any impact on morale? I think, Rob, you mentioned about how sometimes, if morale is damaged, that can negatively impact on savings. If there are potential redundancies and volunteers coming in, what impact is that having on morale?
Deputy Chief Fire Officer:
Sure. In fact, some of the volunteer people who I have spoken to have raised the issue of being worried about that themselves. We have been clear right from the outset that the volunteer thing is not a replacement strategy. What we are definitely not doing is replacing full-time firefighters with volunteers. What we are saying is we can have our full-time firefighters doing more and delivering more and managing the risk that is always there, that they have to dive off to that fire, to that car crash, to that sea rescue, or whatever it is they are doing. That is what we are covering off with the volunteers. There is definitely no replacement strategy. I agree completely; I think morale is a key thing, and particularly in a uniformed organisation like ours, where it is a very shift-based, leadership environment, if you like. Morale is very, very important, so we work very, very hard on that anyway, with constant staff briefings, making sure that everybody has an opportunity to be heard about the fears they may have. At the moment I would say we have had a very positive, very pragmatic, very flexible response from our firefighters.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is not just about the budget. It is about performance. That is my concern.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Performing efficiently.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
In my experience, it is not change that worries people. It is the unknown. What we do is we make sure that we are engaging our staff right from the start here so they know what is coming. Of course, the detail is the key to this, so as soon as we have the detail - we are working on our operating model and our plans now, and we have a team working on that - we tell them. If you know that there is change ahead, as long as you know what is happening, that waylays some of the fears. That is our approach.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. Thank you. Shall we move on to this one?
The Deputy of St. John :
One of the lines with regards to the efficiencies that you have here is a non-staff budget efficiencies programme, and it jumps to £471,000 in 2019. Firstly, what does it mean, and how is your department going to deal with a significant absorption within the budget?
Chief Officer:
What does it mean? Good question.
The Deputy of St. John :
It would be much easier to actually say what it is, rather than: "Non-staff budget efficiencies programme."
Chief Officer:
You will find the same item is repeated in just about every department. What does it mean? There is a staff budget, and the staff budget centrally is adjusted according to things like pay awards and cost of living allowances and suchlike. There is a non-staff budget, and the non-staff budget is normally adjusted to keep pace with inflation, on the assumption that the cost of buying things goes up. That is what normally happens, and that is what is profiled into the usual financial plans.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I just ask what inflation figure was used?
Chief Officer:
I do not have that information. Treasury would know, I am sure.
The Deputy of St. John :
Would it be the same across each department?
Chief Officer:
Yes. This essentially is a Treasury-managed process, so the amount would be the same in every non-staff budget all the way across. Treasury will be able to answer that. Then, early on in the savings process, it was decided that inflation would not be applied to non-staff budgets, so non-staff budgets would become what they call flat cash. If the budget was £100,000 at the start of the period, it would still be £100,000 at the end, and that produces a saving. That is what has happened right across all departments, so inflation has not been applied to non-staff budgets, so it is just a flat cash
settlement, which is a fairly standard technique across governments. What does that mean? I think it is dealt with in lots of different ways. For those departments where that funding provides grants to external bodies, it means that that grant remains at the same value that it was at the start of the period. If their grant was £100,000 at the start of the period, it is still £100,000 at the end. There is no reduction, but there is no uplift. If you are using that non-staff budget to buy goods and services, it means that you had £100 to buy something at the start of the period and you still only have £100 at the end, which means that either you need to find a cheaper supplier or you need to buy less or you need to find a different way. The way in which that saving would be delivered is a myriad of different techniques, according to what that particular small part of the non-staff budget is used for. For example, we have a couple of bodies who we grant-fund. We are not big on grant-funding in the department, but something like Community Relations Trust receives the grant. That grant will not be uplifted with inflation. It will remain not reduced, but it will not be uplifted, and that is the example of the way in which it is achieved.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask then whether this would affect anything in terms of your ability to maintain any equipment that you may have or your functioning of Fire or Police or any areas within your department by not increasing the inflation? There are, I am assuming, various different types of technology or gear that you may need to use for your everyday work. Will that impact on the ability to maintain those?
Chief Officer:
It would do if we did not find a solution, so we need to find solutions to all of those different procurement challenges. If we had a budget for purchasing a certain piece of equipment, then that budget will not keep pace with inflation. That means that we need to find a smarter way of doing it. That might be that we buy less. It might be that we buy differently. It might be we buy together in order to reduce the cost. The solutions are myriad, and right across all the different services: Police, Fire, everyone. It is just lots and lots of very small solutions to the problem.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
How do we know that the purchasing of the equipment will not get deferred, and then, come the next M.T.F.P., where we might have a new Minister, sections of the department will not say: "Well, we have had to put off these various projects because we have just not been able to purchase them because this is imposed upon us"? Is it not a bit of short-termism, when further on you might be hiding bigger costs by doing this?
Chief Officer:
If that was to be our solution right across the board, then yes, that would be short-termism and not a sensible approach, but I do not think that is the approach that is proposed in Customs, Prison, Police or Fire. They will not be storing up problems for the future as a way of dealing with the fact that the budget is flat cash rather than inflation-lifted.
Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:
It is more than just assets. There are things like training and travel where we are tightening our belts as well. We have an asset register where we have a replacement programme for our expensive assets. We are looking at all of our non-staff budgets to say: "Is the travel really necessary? Is that training really necessary? How can we reduce our overtime by managing our resources more effectively?" It is not all about kit. There is more to it than that.
Chief Officer:
Yes. Asset replacement, of course, is the capital budget.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Just looking at the time, we have gone an hour. There may be some questions that we could send via email. If you are happy to just stay another few minutes, I will just get a couple more in. Are you happy with that?
Chief Officer: Yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Then we will send a couple more via email. Just going on, there was some user-pays, just on the same table there, and the top one, the Superintendent Registrar to be self-financing by 2019. There was an article in the J.P. (Jersey Post) yesterday which gave some detail on the possible charges. Can you comment on perhaps the charges and if they will go up, and what this will look like to the public?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. The public access the Superintendent Registrar for a number of things, mainly weddings and registry searches for the most part, I would say. As you know, we are making some substantial changes to the way people will be able to marry. There will be a greater element of choice and a wider variety of locations available. It was felt that it was perfectly reasonable to introduce enhanced payments for those services as people are going to be receiving more choice in there.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is this a model that is common in other jurisdictions?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.
Chief Officer:
Yes. The current level of fees in Jersey is very, very low in comparison to a number of others. We have had a quick look at some of the other beach locations, what they would charge, and again we are significantly more competitive than they are.
The Deputy of St. John :
Can I ask, then, you are saying you are looking at other areas and how much roughly they are charging. Do you have an idea of what those charges are going to look like for Joe Public as such? It is okay saying: "We are going to be able to get this much here," but what does it mean for people who want to get married? Is it going to go up significantly for them?
Chief Officer:
We have not done the detail as yet, and that is why those charges are very much at the very end of the M.T.F.P. period, because there are decisions that ultimately the Assembly will need to make first of all around the new legal framework.
[10:45]
As you know, the choice is around who can marry whom, where they can marry and what kind of ceremony they can have. All those things increase consumer choice quite considerably, but with that increased choice comes obviously new and different costs to the public sector. There is the piece of work that we are already committed to do to complete first with those decisions being brought back for the Assembly to make during the next year or 2, and then as the Assembly makes those decisions then we can see the parameters of where you can get married, who you can get married to, what kind of ceremony you could have, and then we can build the user-pays model around that.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Will there be some consultation with the public built in to establish whether the new charges are reasonable and affordable for the public?
Chief Officer:
Yes. We would expect to be able to start to bring information to the Assembly, to the public and to others as the Assembly is presented with choices around changing things like language. What we expect is that it is not that you get to the end of 2019 and you go: "There it is," a big shock. We expect it to evolve, because I expect that the States Assembly will want to understand the implications of the decision that they are making as they are faced with the different legislative changes and are making choices about what Islanders are able to do.
The Deputy of St. John :
It seems fairly reasonable. You are saying that with more choice, more cost, essentially, or different types of costs.
Chief Officer: Different types, yes.
The Deputy of St. John :
However, there is a pretty huge risk there with regards to political risk in terms of legislation having to be agreed and the choices being made. Should those choices not come to fruition and it should not see the scale that we are talking about here, you will be building 129,000 into your baseline budget from this M.T.F.P. before that decision is being made, so how will you manage that?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As the Chief Officer said earlier, the cost at the moment that is levied through charges is quite low in comparison to other places, so there is still room for an element of an increase in charging. In relation to the Assembly, I think we have already had an indication from the Assembly that they are rather keen on moving forward in most of these areas. Obviously, it is not over until the vote is cast, but I think we can move forward with a certain level of confidence that there will be changes in the future, perhaps not all of them, but some of them.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I wonder if you could just confirm, Minister, on this area that sufficient law drafting time has been allocated for these bits that need to come forward?
The Minister for Home Affairs: As far as I am aware, yes. Yes.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Thank you. Sorry, you were about to say something?
Chief Officer:
I was going to say yes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Good. Okay, I think the final question, then. This is a general one. On 1st January 2020, Minister, what will your services look like after all of these processes have been gone through? Will you still be able to carry out your responsibilities as per page 55 that is set out in the annex?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes. Who knows who will be the Minister for Home Affairs in 2020? I hope that that Minister will be confident that they have a modern and efficient service, not just in the Police, but in the Fire Service and Customs and Immigration Departments also, and also in the Superintendent Registrar's Office. There has been a lot of effort put into this M.T.F.P. process. A lot of thought has gone into it and many hours have been spent in discussions. I am really proud of the work that we have done, and I think we have not achieved the 22 per cent saving that was the task set of us, but we have achieved something that is practical, achievable, and it will bring us together in a collaborative way across the services, enhancing our strengths and playing to those strengths. We have a talented workforce. I think that they will be a Minister who will be proud of those people who serve the Island and keep the people of Jersey safe.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
The change projects that you have within the M.T.F.P., what are the most significant impacts, do you think, if you could sum up what the service might look like as result of those change projects?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think the use of mobile data will be a huge thing for the States of Jersey Police. Not only are they moving into a purpose-built, state-of-the-art building that will be their new headquarters, but they will also be able to utilise the technology that we all rely upon nowadays. We are all, general members of the public and all of us around this table, in our working lives so used to using technology in our working day that it makes sense that the police will have that ability as well, and it will really change the way they do their work and serve the public.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. The general message that we have got is there has been a lot of work gone into redesigning the services on offer to the public. There will be some loss of ... what is the term? Full-time?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Full-time equivalents.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Some loss of staff, hopefully not through redundancies, and the various different savings programmes. Some of them are estimates but you are fairly confident that you will be able to achieve them without any negative impacts on the service to the public. Is that a fair summary?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is a very fair summary, and I am grateful to you for that. Especially on the staffing point it is important to remind you that there are almost 700 people working within the Home Affairs Department at the moment, so that reduction of 30 is quite a realistic figure and should not cause any concern to those people working within the service.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. Minister, would you like to add anything else before your staff before we finish?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have just had my opportunity. My buzzwords I think for this M.T.F.P. process are collaboration and innovation. I think there has been a lot of forward thinking gone into this, and I am really grateful for everybody who has worked on the M.T.F.P. process. It has not been an easy process, but I think we have come to a good conclusion and I am really confident and happy to take this forward to the Assembly for their approval. I am also really grateful to all the members of staff who will be hopefully working to these new budget levels, and I know that they are all very practical people who like to give us their best and serve their community, and I am sure that they will carry on in that vein.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. Thank you again for the communication in the months preceding this and for today for the clear answers. If we do have any further things, you are happy to answer via email or another way, but I think that is that today, and thank you for the extra time as well. What else was I going to say? Nothing. That is everything. Thank you, everybody. Thanks very much.
[10:53]