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OneGov Review Panel OneGov Review Witness: Team Jersey
Friday, 21st June 2019
Panel:
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Chairman) Senator S.C. Ferguson
Senator K.L. Moore
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier
Witnesses:
Connétable R.A. Buchanan of St. Ouen , Political Responsibility for Human Resources Andrew Bell, Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey
Ms. A. Mays, Head, Organisational Development and Learning
Mr. J. Quinn, Chief Operating Officer
[12:03]
Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Chairman): Karen Shenton-Stone , chair of the OneGov Panel.
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier : Deputy Robert Ward , I am on the panel.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Senator Kristina Moore , a member of the panel.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Senator Sarah Ferguson, member of the panel.
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence :
Deputy Kirsten Morel , a member of the panel.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Amanda Mays, I head up the organisational development and learning team for the Government.
Chief Operating Officer:
John Quinn, I am the chief operating officer.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
Richard Buchanan, I have political responsibility for H.R. (human resources) for my sins.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
I am Andrew Bell, programme director for TDP Team Jersey.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Thank you. So we will start with the first question and it is: can you please detail how TDP was awarded its £3.5 million contract?
Chief Operating Officer: Amanda, can you take that one?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So we prepared our intention to tender and went out to tender in April 2018. The tender was quite specific about what we were looking for from the programme in terms of a culture programme that was co-created and co-designed and specific and met the needs for Jersey. We had 24 responses to the tender and had a panel of internal employees that evaluated all of those responses against the criteria. We went down from the 24 to a shortlist of 5 suppliers and invited the 5 suppliers into the government. We wanted to put them through their paces a bit so we asked them to run a workshop with us so we could see how they presented, how they worked with people. Then from those 5 suppliers we selected the final supplier, which was TDP. In terms of those that were involved, it was members of our procurement team, our H.R. team, and our finance team, but we also then used 2 of our directors general and a director in terms of that final 5 suppliers to then determine who was appointed. So it followed the government's procurement processes.
Senator K.L. Moore :
May I ask where the funding for this contract is found in the Budget?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So when the contract was awarded, Susie, the Minister for Treasury and Resources, agreed to fund 2018 and 2019 from existing resource. For 2020 and
Senator K.L. Moore :
So that is from the Consolidated Fund?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Yes, and then for 2020/21 we need to make a bid in the Government Plan process to continue the funding for the remainder of the programme. The programme spans from 2018 to 2021.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you mind if I just go back and ask a bit more about the contract?
The Connétable of St. Martin : Of course, yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Well, about the tender process. Of those 24 responses, how many came from Jersey-based companies?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
The number escapes me. There were some suppliers from the Island.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Of the 5 short-listed companies?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
None of the 5 short-listed were from the Island. What we were looking for was examples of organisations that had run something on this scale. Because this is a programme that touches all approximately 7,000 employees, we wanted evidence that the supplier was able to cope with that scale.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is it not the case that one of the problems with scale, and asking for scale constantly, is that it always cuts out local suppliers, because local suppliers naturally have not been able to work on this sort of scale before? So when the government is asking for tenders, immediately that single characteristic and requirement means that local companies are put to the side straight away?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
When we look at some of the local suppliers that put forward a bid a few joined up, so it was a case of saying: "We know on our own we cannot necessarily meet that scale." So there were occasions where there were suppliers that put forward joint bids to run it. But what we are looking to do is to use local facilitators, so people on-Island, who can support the programme and facilitate. But unfortunately you make the point that none of them met the criteria in terms of having that scale.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But I look to the chief operating officer and I say, please bear that in mind because it is something I hear constantly from local suppliers is that the single requirement the government constantly puts into its contracts, to have worked on this scale before, means that they cannot work for the government and they are constantly being cut out because of that single requirement, they are never being given the chance. As the Team Jersey report says, the need to reduce this risk aversion is important and that is being seen as a risk and yet we need to get over that.
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes, and we are, particularly In the I.T. (information technology) space, looking at how we can allot things differently to encourage local suppliers and really work with local suppliers in the I.T. space. The challenge is, if we brought in someone who has never done this before at this scale and it was not going very well, we would be sitting here and you would be saying: "Why did you not go with someone with a proven track record of doing this?" So we are between a rock and a hard place on this side, are we not?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
How do you relay the suspicion that people have, and it is one that people in Jersey do talk about, the finally-chosen TDP have worked with the chief executive before and it just happened to be that one company that was chosen out of all the 24 that originally were there, how do you push back on that?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
I can confirm that the chief executive was not involved in the procurement process at all. The procurement process was very robust in terms of the criteria that we were looking for and then how we evaluated the bids that came in. The fact that the chief executive has worked with TDP before was not part of the process; it was a robust procurement process and he was not involved.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Were you aware that he had worked with them before?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
I was not on the panel. I do not know if the panel members were, but it would not have been taken into consideration because it is a robust evaluation process that is scrutinised internally by all of the panel.
Senator K.L. Moore :
However, the tender description might have had some involvement from the chief executive, would that be correct?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
The director of People Services, Jacquie McGeachie, put the invitation to tender document together.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You said that you are funded until 2019 and then there is a bid in the Government Plan, so does that mean that TDP have been awarded the contract if it is funded or does it mean that, if the money is awarded, it has to re-tender?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So the contract has break points and we give notice. If for any reason we were not awarded the funds for 2020 and 2021 the contract is such that we could break the contract.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
But currently it is the same company with the contract going through 2021 if it is funded and there is not another tendering process, so you are relying upon the Government Plan bids to continue this process?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
We would have to have the same supplier because, you may not be aware, but the programme is set up in 3 phases, the first phase being the discovery phase, which, as you saw, is the production of the report that you have seen and been referred to. Then phase 2 is the main bulk of the programme, which is the face-to-face sessions with our people leaders and our colleagues, so that is the 7,000, and because of the numbers it takes us through those years, so it would not be appropriate to have another supplier taking over because we want consistency in terms of how we are developing our positive culture, how we are bringing people in and having that common language and having a common set of behaviours. So it would not be appropriate to have a different supplier to continue the same programme.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So would you say It is a given that it will be awarded funding? Because surely they are not going to think it is a good idea to break?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: I would hope not.
Senator K.L. Moore :
The £3.5 million that is attributed in that case, could you just remind me whether that is for the entire project or was that 2018 and 2019?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: The entire project.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You mentioned scrutiny, internal scrutiny of the tender process and the awarding process, is there anybody outside of the executive who oversees that and scrutinises that?
Chief Operating Officer: No, there is not.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, there is not, exactly, so it is very difficult
Chief Operating Officer:
That would apply to every contract.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Exactly, which does always make it very difficult to get to the heart of it.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Moving on to the next question; according to the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) article on 21st September 2018, there was a commitment that TDP would create a company in Jersey and employ local people to help deliver the OneGov change programme. Can you please provide an update on this?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Yes, I can confirm that company has been established; TDP Jersey is now in operation. It employs 4 residents of Jersey including me, it also employs currently, with a future expansion of facilitators who are also Jersey-based residents.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So that is registered in Jersey?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
The company is registered in Jersey, it pays tax in Jersey, all of those who work and are employed by that company including myself pay tax in Jersey.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You mention Jersey-based residents - there is careful use of the words "Jersey-based residents" - does that mean they are recently brought here; they have been here from before TDP came here?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: No, 10 years, 15 years.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
So there are no specific licences allocated to anyone from TDP for this job?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: I was.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You were, okay, but no one else?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: No one else.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
There was a quote from Stuart Love, C.E.O. (chief executive officer) of Westminster Council, in the Local Government Chronicle on 9th November 2018 and the quote is: "There was a change in culture that the organisation is crying out for and my drive is about shared leadership across the organisation. The leadership of this organisation should not be vested in one person. It is the executive directors sharing that leadership throughout the organisation, which is the only way we are going to drive forward the culture that everybody wants." So the question is: is this statement not evidence that the changes Mr. Parker implemented in Westminster and is now implementing in Jersey do not work?
Chief Operating Officer:
Shall I take that because I was a Westminster employee through all of that process? So I think that there are 2 things I would say. One is that the culture that Stuart is building on is the culture that Charlie was responsible for putting in place. Prior to Charlie's arrival, and I was not there prior to Charlie's arrival, but prior to Charlie's arrival the place was very different and I think any chief executive coming in will always want to put their own stamp on things. But it was clear, and I curiously was out with some of my ex-colleagues last night, it is clear that what Stuart is doing is building on, not changing what was already there. The foundation of the work that we did in Westminster with TDP is still running and the fact that TDP courses that were set up originally are still running. It is not that they are not happening. Those culture change courses that were established are still being delivered. It is just that Stuart wants to take it and put his own stamp on it. Stuart is a very different person; Stuart is almost the opposite of Charlie. I have worked with both of them so I can say that.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is not all about Stuart.
[12:15]
Chief Operating Officer:
No. He is less out there than Charlie, less directive I think.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
I think, to note the point around working for chief executives, we do work for organisations and so TDP U.K. (United Kingdom) is continuing to support Westminster in the evolution of their culture and that is about building on the 4 years worth of development that has been taking place. I do believe there are shifts and there are builds on culture as it evolves, as will happen in Jersey, I am sure.
Chief Operating Officer:
But there is nothing Stuart has put in place that has reversed anything that was delivered under Charlie.
Senator K.L. Moore :
That is in relation to culture, but in relation to the structure of the organisation, because obviously the purpose of this programme was to look at the overall structure as well and the culture as part of that change programme.
Chief Operating Officer:
Stuart has not changed the structure of the organisation at all; apart from when I left they had merged mine and someone else's job together.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
He is also quoted as talking about the over-centralisation, which is a suggestion that he thought the structure needed to change and that in November 2018 he is quoted as talking about the over- centralised structures in Westminster.
Chief Operating Officer:
I was not aware of that but the structure has not changed.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
In fairness, we know that we had a structure of 12 different organisations, so we were in the reverse position where there was definitely a need to centralise the organisation. So we are coming from completely polar opposite to where Westminster are and we are going through the painful process of doing that.
Chief Operating Officer:
I think that is probably true of Westminster prior to Charlie's arrival, there was a very devolved organisation with very little accountability and one of the things that Charlie's always been hot on I think is accountability.
Senator K.L. Moore :
So, talking about accountability, the targets and K.P.I. (key performance indicators) process around the culture project, could you tell us what they are please and how they are being monitored?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So we put a huge amount of internal governance around the programme, so if I give you what the governance looks like and then feed into the K.P.I.s. The programme is overseen by a monthly programme board, which is chaired by our chief of staff and John, as the S.R.O. (senior reporting officer), attends that meeting as do other directors general. They are provided on a monthly basis with a status update in terms of including our key performance indicators but also where we are with
the programme, how it is delivering. In addition, we have a weekly ops board that keeps an ongoing weekly monitoring, a lower level, so that is myself with the programme managers. Then we have a design group, which looks at the content, and a commercial group, which looks at the contract relationship that we have, the detail around that and spend. The report that is submitted on a monthly basis to the programme board gives an update on our key performance indicators and they are at 3 levels. So we have one level is around the contract relationship, so is TDP meeting the terms of the contract in terms of the planning, design and execution of the detail? Then we are also looking at whether we are meeting the timeframe and objects, so that is the contract relationship. The next level up looks at the organisation's engagement, so are we holding enough programme sessions, development sessions, are we managing to fill the spaces, what is the quality and the quantity feedback we are getting from those attending the sessions? So that is quite a lot of detail that we gather after each session that we run in our learning centre in Bermuda House. Then the top level is the culture change level, are we seeing any changes to outcomes? So are we seeing that our culture is shifting as a result of the programme? By that we look at things like our engagement scores for the One Voice Survey and we look at other things around turnover, absence, things that you cannot instantly directly attribute to the programme but you would expect to see an impact that a positive working culture would have. So, for example, you might have read in the report around bullying and harassment, so that is one area where we would expect over time to see a drop in bullying and harassment when we are looking to see more positive behaviour in the workplace. But I would like to stress that, in terms of that top culture change level, that is going to take us some time to achieve; it is quite a big task to get all of our employees through the programme. So while we have those measures at that outcome level we are not seeing much impact in them yet because we are literally just starting the main bulk of the programme. But just to give you assurance that we look at our key performance indicators across those 3 different levels.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Are you using staff turnover as part of your indicators, and complaints?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: Yes. Wider organisational complaints?
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Yes.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Yes, we have considered that and in reading the recent P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) report ,and that was interesting in terms of thinking we should look at more organisational measures, so we are looking to include those; so not just pure people services measures but wider organisational measures as part of the outcome.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
But you are not using them at the moment?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: No, and I think
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Why not?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
I think it is too early in the programme to expect that, so we have not started our colleague engagement yet; that starts in July. So at the moment, since March, we have been running our leader sessions and we have had around 600 leaders attend a one-day session. But it is a long- term programme, so at this stage we are literally only into phase 2. We started that once the diagnostic report was published, and it would be too early to expect to see the impact of this programme yet.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Right, well you have had 600 through the programme; how many have stayed as leaders once they have finished the programme?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
It is a one-day session that they attend; it is not a leadership development programme in terms of looking at that. The first session focuses on the morning is around the manager's role in shaping a positive workplace culture, and the afternoon session is around crucial conversations, so how do I have those engaging and quality conversations with my staff. So I think it would be unfair to expect to see that in itself would impact turnover. Over time we would expect to see a positive impact but I think we are too early yet in the programme to be able to assess that. We do not
Senator S.C. Ferguson: When do you expect to see it?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
By summer, so summer 2020, all of our leaders, our people managers, that is around 1,000 people, will have been through all of the sessions that we are setting up for leaders. So we would hope to see that we are starting to make an impact in the organisation by next summer. Our colleagues are going through right up to spring/summer 2021, so it is again when we start to see an impact, but we are keeping a
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Sorry, which colleagues?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
When I say "colleagues" I mean people who are not people managers, so around 6,000 of our staff who do not have responsibility for, or non-management responsibility for others.
Deputy K.F. Morel : It is a one in 7 ratio
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Hang on a minute. You are saying that 6,000 people in the States do not have line management responsibilities?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
We have 1,000 managers who have responsibility for managing staff and then we have 6,000 who do not have line-management responsibilities.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
There is one manager for every 6 people.
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Well sorry.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I was just interested when you mentioned the oversight board and you said that it was you and John, is it, and
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: The programme board.
The Connétable of St. Martin : The ultimate oversight board.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
The programme board is chaired by our chief of staff and John is our S.R.O., as are 2 other directors general, and our director of communications, our director of people services. I attend and Andy attends as the ones on the ground who deal with that
The Connétable of St. Martin :
So were these mostly people who have been brought in, I am just interested?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: On the programme board?
The Connétable of St. Martin : Yes.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: What do you mean by "brought in"?
The Connétable of St. Martin : As directors general.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: No, John Rogers and Ian Burns.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I was just curious because it sounded, when you said
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
No, John Rogers and Ian Burns are both directors general on the programme board who were both in the organisation prior to this.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I wanted to ask a similar question about the design group; who is on the design group?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
The design group, again we have representatives from Health, we have some of our learning professionals on there, and we have representatives from Growth, Housing and Environment, virtually all of our departments are represented. What the design group does is looks at the content and the design of the programme itself, so for example TDP would bring along an outline, because we would expect them as our professional experts to bring an outline, and then that group look at it and say: "Will it work for us in Jersey? Does it meet the needs of our organisation?" and making sure that the design is right and will deliver the outcomes. So that design group is our sort of quality check in terms of the content of the material.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You mentioned learning professionals, which learning professionals do you have in the organisation whose training was squished along that line?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Not many; I can confirm there is not many. So the way that learning and development is structured within the government is we have a very tiny corporate hub, which we would hope to grow, but a very tiny corporate hub, then each of the departments from legacy issues, some have full-time learning professionals, others do it for a bit of their role. So what we are looking to do now, as part of our review of people services, is to look at how we create a really successful hub for learning in the government. So we have put forward proposals but we are still at an early stage yet and it is subject to prioritisation of funding as to what funding we get for learning. But we recognise that we want to create a stronger hub, a learning hub, a centre of expertise within people services outwith the Team Jersey programme, just in terms of our learning through the whole of the organisation.
Senator K.L. Moore :
As you mentioned, the phase one report has been published with its findings and recommendations, so what will be the next step on that process and how will that be monitored against the K.P.I.s?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So what we have done is we have gone through the 9 recommendations in the report, put forward a plan that addresses each of those, and that is being currently turned into a proper project plan with R.A.G. (red amber green) status and owners and all you would expect to see. That will be monitored and overseen by the programme board and ultimately that will come through to the Council of Ministers, so we will be sharing with the Ministers what our responses are as an organisation to the recommendations that were made in the report. It varies quite considerably around some of our business-as-usual activities, so for example looking at learning, looking at how we develop our leaders within the organisation, how we look to create high potential, how do we look at the talent within the organisation, and almost create subs benches, so when we are looking to recruit we have talent within the organisation and we do not have to look outside. It also recommends that we continue with the programme and the content of bringing our colleagues in and our leaders in. But then it goes wider than that in terms of looking at the point you made earlier about the fact that we
expect the Team Jersey programme to be wider than just the government. So we are looking at
how we create a coalition of employers on the Island to look at talent within Jersey, not just within government, and share things like how to create secondments and how we can perhaps share some of our training, our learning, and be able to leave that legacy. So in 2021, when TDP have finished and the programme has ended, there will be that legacy that remains in the Island.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I must admit I find there is one recommendation you mentioned, the recommendation to continue the programme, Andy. It feels almost insulting when I read that because of course you are going to recommend that you continue with your own work.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Partly because it is part of the contract, which is saying at the end of phase one there was an option to not move forward.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is there ever a world in which you would have said: "Do not continue with this programme"?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Yes, there could be cases where we say this organisation is beyond changing its culture?
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Have you done that?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
I have not started a diagnostic; I have started conversations with a retailer based in the U.K. who asked us if we could look at their culture and, having done some due diligence, said: "We do not think we can help you."
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
I think it is Important to have that get-out because all these things, it is a symbiotic relationship and if we do not get on with TDP and we do not like what they are producing or they do not like us and they do not like the way we work, there has to be a get-out clause that says: "No, this is not going to work."
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Contractually, yes, absolutely. I just find it interesting that in the report TDP recommends that TDP carries on. I just find that very interesting.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
Yes, but they might, as they said, get to the stage where we recommend they do not carry on or they recommend they do not carry on.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, I am sure the government can work that out in the payment.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
But if we do not have the right recruitment process in the first place that would be a possibility, but we hope we got it right at the recruitment stage.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I ask what is the likely requirement? The next stage seems to be more of an implementation part of the programme, so what is the likelihood of using further consultants in order that you can enable that to happen?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
There are 2 parts to that, so there are things that are within the programme and that are part of the Team Jersey programme, which are outlined in the report and which were outlined in the original contract. That will be delivered principally by TDP Jersey and that involves, not just the running of workshops and the engagement with colleagues, it also is about consultancy support to look at the systemic issues that are identified within the report.
[12:30]
So looking at how do we grow talent within the Island, how do we ensure that we have succession plans within the public service, how do we make sure that we have all of the things that I refer to in my report. So that is part of the implementation. There are other elements of implementation, which sits very much within the people services part of the government and they are using other consultants in parts of the implementation of some of that. Some I know on a Jersey basis, some of them are not.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So there could be more consultants coming in from elsewhere to help with the TDP programme?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
No. There are other elements that are being addressed as part of the report such as
Chief Operating Officer:
One of the recommendations in the report is that we significantly change our people processes. Part of that, it will involve an I.T. implementation of a new people system. TDP would not help us with that; they are not the right people to help us with an I.T. implementation. We would have to go to the market for an alternative.
Deputy R.J. Ward : Right.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
It is worth highlighting where the problems are, John, because I do not think we quite understand the concept of the problem we have. Every single overtime sheet in the States has now to be manually inputted into the system for payroll to be run, so you are talking 2,000 or 3,000 of those every week.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But that is not part of this.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources:
No, but when you talk about consultants, I just need to highlight why we need them.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You do not need a consultant to tell you that you should not be inputting manually paper time sheets; I can tell you that and you should believe me.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources: But you need a consultant to look at the right system.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, you need them to look at the right systems, but you do not need consultants to tell you in the first place that should not be the case.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I would raise the question when you know what the problem is with the system, you know the way Jersey works, and the employees and who they are, why you would need a consultant to do that and you cannot just get down and do it because you need to change it.
Chief Operating Officer:
When I say "consultant", I am talking about systems integration; so whether you call them consultants or whether you call them I.T. technicians, it is up to you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Would that be something that would be done in-house in Jersey?
Chief Operating Officer: We do not have the skills.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Jersey does not have the I.T. skills; Jersey, not the government, Jersey.
Chief Operating Officer:
Sorry, Jersey government, in-house in Jersey government?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, in Jersey itself, locally.
Chief Operating Officer:
It would depend on the choice of system. If you went down a Microsoft route then there are quite a lot of Microsoft Gold Partners on the Island. If we went down the SAP or Oracle route then the Island is bereft of SAP and Oracle skills.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
They have a lot of SAP in Guernsey though.
Chief Operating Officer:
I am not sure Guernsey's SAP implementation is a shining beacon of how to do SAP.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
We must not get sidelined with I.T.
Political Responsibility for Human Resources: I apologise.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Of the £3.5 million of the entire project, how much is now left for the planned investments and the allocations over the coming phases of the project relating to cultural change? So very simply how much have you spent and how much have you got left?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So we have probably spent, to the end of 2019, pretty much it is 50 per cent, so for the work in 2018 and 2019, because the programme finishes in around spring/early summer of 2021. So at the end of 2019 we are about 50 per cent of the cost.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So that £1.75 million would have to come from the new funding of the Government Plan, it is not already there?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
We have requested it as part of the Government Plan, yes.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The target operating models; sorry, Sarah, that is you.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Are the target operating models set in stone or are they still in flux?
Chief Operating Officer:
Totally In flux, in 2 ways, one that none of myself or my colleagues have completed their target operating models all the way down to level 6, so my one is down to level 3 and I still have 4 to do. But the reality is I do not think the target operating model is ever set in stone. If it is, it is almost going to confine you to fade out of the world at some point because life is changing constantly and technology, over the next 5 years, is going to substantially change the way we operate.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Why do you not just call It the "revised management structure" instead of this wonderful management term, which confused everybody to begin with?
Chief Operating Officer:
Because target operating model is more than the management structure and that is the point; it is about the business, the business processes, so it is not just about how you structure the organisation - although that is obviously a consequence of your business processes. It starts with what is your business process so that the move of putting everything into C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services), front-facing, and the way the business processes flow from C.L.S. to other departments
Senator S.C. Ferguson: C.L.S.?
Chief Operating Officer:
Customer and Local Services. That is where you start with, what is the customer journey through the organisation and then what organisation do you have to support that customer journey? So I am doing that for my areas at the moment and we are looking at, in the I.T. world, what is the development cycle from a department that says: "I need a new system to do X," to how do we approve it, how do we fund it, how do we develop it, how do we employ it, how do we operate it; that is where you start. You then build your structure around it. So target operating is much more than just a structure. The bit that most people see is the bit we go out to consult the staff on, is who has what job, but who has what job has to flow from function.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You do not start with the outcome, what we are trying to achieve, but you said you start with the business process, you start with what we are trying to deliver and then work your way back through how that is delivered.
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes, and then the business process that will deliver that, yes. So you do not start with who reports to who, you start with what are you trying to achieve.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Yes, you also talked about 6 levels down to level 6, but where is the front line staff in all that?
Chief Operating Officer: The front line staff is level 6.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
So there is in effect 8 levels of management that we are talking? I thought we were going for a horizontal structure, not a vertical one.
Chief Operating Officer:
That is considerably more horizontal than the current structure. It is not true to say that level 6 is the only people who do things. In most organisations
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
No, I am just querying the number, you know, it just seems a lot of people for a very small Island.
Chief Operating Officer:
In a very factory-orientated world, and I have run contact centres for local organisations; you have effectively everyone at the bottom does the work and everyone else above them manages that work. In an organisation like government you do not because you have highly-paid senior people, surgeons, who clearly do work. They are managing people, but they are also performing critical tasks. So it is not like you have got everyone at level 6 does all the work and everyone above managing, because people at level 2 and level 3 can be very strong practitioners and are actively doing their job, they are not managing people.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Sorry, yes, I think my experience of industry is rather different to yours. Right, how will these target operating models help change the culture of the public sector?
Chief Operating Officer:
I do not think we deliberately set out, when designing the target operating Models, with the culture change in mind. There is a philosophy around the OneGov, so that was part of the target operating models, so the idea of breaking the silos down and working across departments much more actively is part of the culture change and is part of the target operating model. But in terms of the culture change for individual managers I think we are more looking at the Team Jersey programme.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
John, could I add a comment to that? There is a connection. Team Jersey as a programme does not have any impact on the design of the structure or to the target operating model. I think what the target operating models, if executed effectively, will do will reduce the level of decision making, which I think is a key part of the culture, and which I called that before, which is that people escalate decisions. So I think that there is a relationship there that, by having an effective target operating model that allows people to make decisions; that will impact on the culture of: "I can make decisions." So I think there is a relationship
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
So in fact you are aiming at a sort of John Seddon systems approach?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: John Seddon has obviously
Where the decision is further down.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: Absolutely.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Where the man who is putting the wheels on the car can stop the whole production line.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Absolutely, people need to be able to make decisions at the point at which decisions need to be made. Part of our research in the first phase, which is what I have pulled out in our report, is that people who should be empowered to make decisions on the front line do not. There is a reason for that, which is that they are frightened to, because they are risk-averse because they feel: "If I make a decision I will be overly criticised. If I make a decision that goes wrong, if I make a mistake, then I will be publicly scrutinised, publicly criticised
Senator S.C. Ferguson: Excoriated I think is the word.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Excoriated is a very good word, Senator, a very good word indeed. But I think the relationship between the culture and the way we do things around the organisation will I believe be impacted by that target operating model. So if people have an effective ability to be influential in terms of making decisions that gives them a sense of ownership of what they are doing within the organisation. So I think there is a really strong connection. It is also fair to say that, once those target operating models have settled, and I would support John in what he is saying that they never stay, because that would effectively immediately put them into a place of redundancy, but in terms of the fluidity part of the changing of the culture is equipping the staff to be able to recognise that: "My role will change and the structure around me will change by necessity", as the Deputy rightly points out, as the organisation begins to change its shape what it is doing in public service, I believe Team Jersey and the culture change programme will equip people far more effectively to say how am I part of that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Sorry, can I just pick up on that, because there was something you said there, so the Target Operating Model is inextricably linked to the business process, which is inextricably linked to
decision-making and culture, but the Target Operating Model is constantly in flux. So at one point will that settle down so that people have some consistency in what their role is? Second, if you have a constant change in that way, is that not going to be constantly unsettling to the workforce? Because what we have been told is the reason people are unhappy at the moment is because there is change and that change will settle down. But if the Target Operating Model is constantly in flux and the culture change is about getting ready for constant change, we are never going to have that consistency and people are not going to settle down.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
If I may add, there is a school of thought, which says sometimes people are brought in in order to create a culture of constant change, in order to
Deputy R.J. Ward :
A self-fulfilling prophecy.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Exactly, to create this self-fulfilling prophecy.
Chief Operating Officer:
When I am talking about constant change, I am not saying structures change every 5 minutes or the way we do things changes every 5 minutes, but over the next 5 years, and even just the term of the Government Plan in the next 4 years, if we get our technology transformation programmes, people's work is going to change dramatically around A.I. (artificial intelligence), robotics, so structures will change.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You said "if" and this is putting the Island in huge uncertainty and really reliant upon a few individuals who are driving this change and what if it does not work? Do you not feel it is creating a huge uncertainty for the workforce and really there is no light at the end of the tunnel that uncertainty being sorted out and is that not creating ?
Chief Operating Officer:
I am thinking is that not life now?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Well that has been created to some extent, has it not?
Chief Operating Officer:
We cannot isolate. You would be criticising me with a different hat on if I was sitting here saying: "We are not going to look at A.I., we are not going to look at robotics, we are not going to automate things, we will just stick with paper.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, I understand that and that is not what I am saying, but I am saying surely because you have Team Jersey to help you manage the change, you have a facility there to ensure that people I just do not see the link.
Chief Operating Officer:
What the Team Jersey programme, part of the Team Jersey programme, is you have built-in resilience to allow people to cope with change. Lots and lots of people like change; what they do not like is change done to them. So we all like change, we all like it when the weather changes to sunny from raining, but what we do not like is when we have no control over that change. So the stress is caused by not being in control. What the Team Jersey programme is about is giving people those tools and techniques to help them be more resilient and able to cope with change.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Be careful because there are plenty of resilience companies on Jersey who could do that work.
Chief Operating Officer: It is not the only bit of it.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
I feel that I should call out that I believe there is a significant amount of change because I have gone public to say that in my report, and I think that the level of change that is currently experienced within the organisation is unsettling and is causing a drop in morale, and I call that out and I call that out very honestly. The amount of reorganisation in terms of target operating models across the organisation is significant but it is current and I do not believe for any moment that level of change and the pace at which that change is happening is sustainable.
[12:45]
There needs to be a point at which there is a stability of sort brought into the organisation. I think that is recognised by the executive team and by senior management within the organisation and it is about how quickly do we get to that point at which we are saying we have established what we see as the baseline in terms of target operating models. But I think there are 2 different points here, one is around that will constantly evolve because organisations constantly evolve, but I do not think the level or pace, I do not think you will having restructures at the level that you are currently going through next year and the year after and the year after. That would be disastrous and I do not think that is anybody's intention.
Senator K.L. Moore :
As you rightly point out, there is a level of disquiet and concern because people are concerned about their future roles and their position and because tiers 1 and 2 are the only people who are solid in their roles moving forward in the organisation, and it is very visible as observers when we find ourselves in meetings sometimes and you can see that some people obviously know their future and others very obviously do not. We all sense, and I am sure most members of the public sense, that impacts on morale because we are all so close to States of Jersey employees as members of the community. Where I am going with this is what is that timeline, and my understanding was that there was a 6-month timeframe at one point that was being talked about, but that certainly was longer than 6 months ago.
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes, so it is fair to say that the intention is to have everything finished by the end of this year in terms of that first cut of the target operating models. It has taken longer, partly because most of us have chosen to do things probably slightly differently than was originally thought. So going back to what Senator Ferguson was saying, there was a bit of a school of thought which said 2 or 3 people put damp towels over their head and draw a structure from one to 6. The approach I am taking and most of my colleagues are taking is we have appointed 2s and we are now finishing level 3 and then we are saying to level 3 managers: "Design your organisation, you have responsibility", so Amanda's replacement is being told: "You have to develop a learning and development strategy for the next 5 years, design your organisation that will deliver that strategy." So in a way it is elongating the period but it is giving ownership to people for the organisation that they are going to run. I think that is a much better way than I could sit there with a whiteboard and I could draw the structure in a day and inflict it on the organisation, but then I would get no buy-in from anyone who is doing it. If Amanda's replacement designs her structure, designs her team, what skills she wants to deliver her strategy, then I get buy-in. That does mean it takes a bit longer.
Senator K.L. Moore :
So why the focus at the moment on the leaders in the organisation in terms of culture and development rather than the people who are experiencing the most disquiet?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
That was a decision that was made in the design and that is about starting to position, because I believe that the leaders in the organisation, of which we originally thought there was about 700, we think there are about 1,000, back to the people; how many people manage other people. So the phase 2 programme implementation has started with leaders because there is a need to position what is happening with those that manage staff so that they are able to communicate with staff and communicate what the shape of the culture changes need to be within the organisation. That very quickly, and it is as of next week we are now engaging with colleagues, so there has been a short period of time where we were taking through somewhere in the region of 600 leaders to look at what does it mean in terms of what is the culture that we are looking to establish and that we as leaders have a responsibility to shape? That started - we are now starting - after 3 months, where we are now engaging with colleagues, so colleagues will be invited into similar workshop sessions. We are also working with front line staff in currently 2 departments who are not leaders and managers, so we are working within Children's Services, working with social workers and care workers in Children's Services. So it is not just about let us start with the top and let us then forget about staff; we are doing both.
Chief Operating Officer:
There is also a risk, if you only started at the bottom, that people go on a day away and are told about how things should be different and then they go back and try to be different and if the managers are not brought in to the difference then they knock the difference out very quickly, so you do not get traction. So I think you have to do the 2 in parallel.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
However, the people on the front line are the people who will tell you how to improve your processes.
Chief Operating Officer: Absolutely.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
If you are leaving dealing with them until last then you are missing things.
Chief Operating Officer: But we are not.
Senator K.L. Moore :
The phase one report talks about implementing positive culture champions, so I was interested to know how many of those positive culture champions there are in the organisation now.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Our aim is to get to 200 Team Jersey leads, so we are calling our internal champions Team Jersey leads. We currently have about 120 in the pipeline and we have trained about 70 of them, so the training programme is 3 days. They come to our learning centre and we take them through a number of different sessions and equip them with the skills to be able to be those champions in the organisation, so facilitation skills, how to have crucial conversations. We then give them ongoing support through our Team Jersey Academy and that is where we bring them back once a month to talk to them, perhaps give them suggestions about what they can do in the workplace. That is still in development because we are asking our Team Jersey leads what they want from the academy. Then when we move into the colleague engagement sessions, which is starting next week, July, they co-facilitate, so we have a TDP facilitator and a Team Jersey lead that co-facilitate all of our colleague sessions. So we are growing their skills and then they are able to be in the workplace and be able to
The Connétable of St. Martin :
Sorry, it is just that you must have a lot of very intelligent people in the organisation who probably are not neurotypical who would baulk at being a Team Jersey lead or going into an academy, so do they get left on the sidelines or if they do not conform do you get pushed aside?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
If you do not conform do you get pushed aside? Where does the individual fit into all of this?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
All of our colleagues, they all will be invited to take part in
The Connétable of St. Martin :
No, but if they do not you might have some very, very intelligent people, well you probably have, who are not totally neurotypical, who would not like or want to be a Team Jersey lead or baulk at the idea of going to the Team Jersey Academy, so would they not be able to progress in the government?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: Absolutely they would, so everybody
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I am just worried that: "Let us all jump on the bus otherwise if you do not conform get out."
Deputy K.F. Morel :
If you do not conform get out.
The Connétable of St. Martin : That really worries me.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
That aligns with one question that I was going to ask: what is the difference between this and just spreading propaganda? You have a propaganda line and you are just going to stick with it. This is a similar sort of thing.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
It has nothing to do with propaganda. If I can just describe the role of the Team Jersey lead as change champion. They are colleagues who wish to be part of informing the change in their own parts of the organisation and that is supporting their colleagues, it is supporting their colleagues through difficult times, i.e. now. So that is why they are equipped to help folk to think about how do we work our way through this change. So those Team Jersey leads are a group, a community, who also can provide feedback back up the organisation. The intention will be that those Team Jersey leads are part of that programme board and are part of the discussions around what is happening in the organisation. So if I can just make this one point, is that okay?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Just remember my point; that is all.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
So those Team Jersey leads are a group that are, I believe, part of the organisation that are seen to be working with colleagues. There are 6,500 other people that we will work with and hopefully encourage them and provide them with the skills to be positive change champions in their own parts of the organisation. So it is not about progression; it is not about exiting the organisation, it is about building those behaviours in all of the staff that work here. The progression and the talent movement is not about whether you are a Team Jersey lead, it is about merit and it is about what have I learned and am I able to do the job. Part of the role of the Team Jersey lead is to provide communication channels into the organisation and around the organisation and we see that as part of their role, but that is not a central propaganda unit, that is about saying how do we get messages out about how we can create positive culture.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
That sounds like a propaganda unit, messages to create a certain type of culture.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
Those messages would be around let us stop bullying each other, those messages would be
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, I did not say the messages could be good messages, but it is still
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have a practical example of what you are saying here, I will stick my neck above the parapet and be a devil's advocate here, I am quite good at that. I agree with all of these things, you know, you want to support your colleagues through change, you want to stop bullying and so on, however I would not want to be just part of something that looks like a cult to me. You go along and I see everyone with a cap with a symbol on it and everyone going "whoo" at things; I would not want to be part of that. Would you not be wasting my abilities if I just do not want to be part of that, not in terms of leaving the organisation, but it is not counterintuitive that people who simply do not go with that process but who have got real skills because they know their colleagues and they are really committed to what they are doing, how are you going to guarantee that you do not lose those who simply do not like the terminology? I know that might seem a petty thing, but it is very real for people in the workplace.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You can feel cult-like, I mean I am personally one of those people who baulk at that sort of thing.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
How would you deal with that, it is a genuine question, yes?
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
So Team Jersey and the Team Jersey leads is only one aspect, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of what is the learning proposition for the whole organisation. So it might be around progression, it might be that you want information, or it might just be you want to increase the skills that you have in your current role. So we have introduced My Conversation/My Goals, which is an organisation-wide individual review process, which gives every employee the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with their manager and identify what their learning needs might be. That is out with this programme. Then what we are looking to do is, as John also said, is put together a learning and development strategy for the government so we learn what people are asking for through My Conversation/My Goals and then we are able to address it through our learning proposals. So it is not to say that if you do not put your hand up to be a Team Jersey lead we are not going to do anything for you, it is about the fact that we can look at addressing your needs in a different way. The My Conversation/My Goals gives us that opportunity to do that.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
So what you are doing is just having a realistic and valuable performance appraisal process.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: That is what we are aiming to have.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
I mean do we have to have it in I am sorry, I do tend to do things in a somewhat simple-minded approach and I cannot deal with management speak, with respect; it is a proper performance appraisal system.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
It is wider than that. So our experience or the experience of lots of organisations with a performance appraisal system is it tends to be a one-off review after 12 months and the
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Well you will have seen all the C. and A.G.'s (Comptroller and Auditor General) reports and I have been party to them right back to 2008 and, yes, the performance appraisal system has not been working and I am very glad to hear that somebody is doing something about it.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: Good, thank you.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Even going back to even the name Team Jersey, I mean I find that condescending, I find that patronising. I just find it is that cult aspect, that is what it sounds like you are trying to
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
No, it is not a cult, we do not have a company song.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think it is just a real concern that you will lose people and myself, within certain professions. You have individuals and you have to let them and I absolutely go with them being brave enough to make decisions, but unfortunately we are in I do not know, I do not see how this sort of cultish approach - I am afraid I have to say it - is going to give people the confidence within an organisation
are you aware that it could be counterintuitive and stop people do you have checks and balances in place and would you be willing, if you see that has happened, to change your process or is this a process set in stone?
Chief Operating Officer:
One of the things we do, after every session, is a feedback sheet; people score each aspect of the day they have been on. So we know if something is not working we will get feedback. If I ran a session with you all and you all scored it one out of 5 then we would go back and say: "There is something wrong with that session."
Deputy R.J. Ward :
But the structure I mean 2 things, firstly it would be really interesting if we could be invited along to some of the sessions to attend.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning: We would love you to.
[13:00]
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Particularly those for front line workers, it would be really good to just be around.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It makes sense because it says we need to start involving politicians with colleagues with public servants.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
The danger with having people who are obviously sitting on the side of the table that you have just described, so we are also recommending that we have Team Jersey leads for politicians and that clearly we need to
Chief Operating Officer:
Clearly you do not want to be one of those, Robert.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
That to me sounds like a most dangerous place to go from a democratic accountability perspective. I mean, for instance, I am aware that when I sit here I can look very deadpan, can come across quite fierce, but all I am trying to do, you mentioned the word "criticism", and I have very little criticism, 99 per cent questions, and that is all it is. The reason is because you have to be back from it; you have to, to ask these questions I cannot get caught up in the smiles, I cannot get caught up in that sort of thing, I have to be removed from it, and it is the same thing there. So you start having Team Jersey
champions, well then we are in a world of propaganda and we are in a world where democratically- elected individual politicians are being pulled in and unable to perhaps hold Team Jersey to account the way that it should be.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: I think that is a very fair point.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I would like to think the very basis of why I stood for election was because I do not want to see bullying, I do not want to see people I love being
Deputy K.F. Morel : Blame culture or
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I represented trade unions who fight exactly against that so I do not need a Team Jersey tee-shirt to say I am going to do it. Now I do not mean to be cynical there, but I think these are the things that I think exist in the workforce that have to be addressed if this is going to be a successful enterprise and I think we have to voice that because we can stick our head above the parapet because that is our job. We should not be fearful in voicing that so it is not to put you on the spot or have a go at you, I agree, it is not that at all, it is just a frank conversation, it is one of the difficult conversations you are talking about, crucial conversations, that is the phrase, that we need to have. It is just that reassurance to staff as well that this is not just - these are not the right words and I apologise in advance - it is not a gimmick, yes, and I think that is so important whenever you are and being somebody who led a department in teaching, cycles come around again and again and again and how many times we tried to introduce something and it was: "Oh, we have seen this before, it is just a gimmick: and some were, to be honest, they were nonsense. But others were not.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
So one of the things that I think is worth noting, if you do look at the research base around what makes for effective changes of this nature, having workplace change champions, whatever you want to call them, is important to the success of those transformations. In a cultural setting the research would say where it fails is that we have not had people in the workplace who are not just managers, and this community of people is designed, not just because we think it is a gimmick. I accept what you are saying, but it is based on some sound evidence that says having people who are located in the workplace next to colleagues who have skills to be able to shape and support is really important. That is why the 200 people that we are asking to volunteer have come forward. That is part of their role. The other bit is that I have been genuinely surprised, given the circumstances that I described
in my report and given the circumstances that you are all experiencing, just the volume of people who wanted to be part of a positive change in the workplace. So the fact that we have had 170 saying: "I want to be part of this", I do not think that is the fact that they think: "I need to join", whatever the phrase is you want to use, it is because they want to be part of something positive.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
What is the cross-section of the people that are joining? Are these all grade 14s, 13s, 12s?
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
It is a real mix. We have a chief operating officer; we also have a full Q.R. at grade 6 working in the hospital.
The Connétable of St. Martin :
I am aware that we have slightly overrun. If you have time could we ask you just one more question please that Senator Ferguson would like to ask?
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
Has OneGov been successful in breaking down the silos, are they still there, and what are you going to do to fix it?
Chief Operating Officer:
Has it fully broken down the silos? No. Has it started to break down the silos? Yes. That is obvious in the way some of the activities are moving across the organisation in the way say creating Customer and Local Services, so moving the front line and continuing to move front line activity into one organisation, doing it for the whole organisation. In the way that we are putting together the strategies and plans and responding to the C.S.P., so the C.S.P. (Common Strategic Policy) themes, it is the first time that we have planned, not down departments, but by theme. So, if you take something like children, children is not just about Children and Young People Services, it is also about Health, it is also about Justice, so the theme of children now is pulling together departments to work thematically around how do you deal with needs, how do you deal with antisocial behaviour, which is more than a single department in response. So, yes, it is starting to work, we are not all the way there yet, but
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
But the C. and A.G. was saying that one of the problems is that, for instance, in the children's area they are not communicating with the adult section, which is dealing with the same sort of problems, the adults.
Deputy K.F. Morel : The handovers.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
All the the equivalent department to the children's.
Chief Operating Officer:
I am sure there are areas where we could do a lot more.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
They just are not communicating, the things that they are finding and putting right in the children's department, they are not taking across to the equivalent men's or adult's department.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
If I can use that as a particular example, Senator Ferguson. So Team Jersey is currently working and is about to launch a programme of activity within Children's Services, part of that activity is around how do we look at the co-dependent teams, how do we start to get those teams to work together more effectively within the operating model
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
It is the knowledge being spread around horizontally.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey:
and part of the work of Team Jersey is to bring those front line folk together, whether in police, whether in the Youth Service. If we are part of a multidisciplinary approach, how do we make sure that our collaboration and our effective working together in the way that we interrelate and share knowledge and talk to each other, how is that the best we possibly can do it? That is an example of where Team Jersey will support the behaviours as well as the target operating model looking at the processes and systems. What I said in my report was that the silo working is not a mentality. I do not believe that the people in Jersey think: "I do not want to work with them" or: "I do not want to work" because this is an incredibly connected Island, and so it should be. Where I think there has been historic failings is that the systems have prevented people and the structures have prevented people to do the things that we are just describing. So I think there is a shift in being asked to be able to look at more effective structures and processes but also helping people to start to work much more effectively, which is part of what the Team Jersey is. So that is a live example of where we are working with front line staff with teams about how do we understand our co-dependencies.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
If you move decisions further down the tree then people can communicate horizontally instead of having to go up to the chief officer, across and down.
Programme Director, TDP Team Jersey: Absolutely.
Head, Organisational Development and Learning:
Also in place, we have a senior leadership group and a senior management group, which brings together the top 2 tiers and the top 3 tiers of the organisation together so that they can learn from each other, have presentations around things where, for example, customer complaints and how we manage them as a collective team. So there are lots of other things that we are putting in place outside of Team Jersey that support that OneGov and support people getting to know their colleagues and then working with them more effectively.
Senator S.C. Ferguson:
I think that goes for States Members, we do not know who to communicate with at the moment.
The Connétable of St. Martin : Thank you very much for your time.
[13:09]