This content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost. Let us know if you find any major problems.
Text in this format is not official and should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments. Please see the PDF for the official version of the document.
Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Government Plan
Witness: The Minister for International Development
Tuesday, 1st October 2019
Panel:
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chair) Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chair)
Witnesses:
Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville , The Minister for International Development Mr. S. Boas, Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission
[14:31]
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chair):
Thank you very much for coming in and spending the next hour or hour and a half. We have got an hour and a half, but we may not take that long; we shall see. Before we get started, we will do our usual of stating our names for the record. I will go first: I am Deputy Kirsten Morel , Chair of the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chair): David Johnson , Deputy of St. Mary , Vice-Chair.
The Minister for International Development:
Carolyn Labey , Deputy of Grouville , Minister for International Development.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
I am Simon Boas, the Director of Jersey Overseas Aid.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
We will just start. Obviously what we see in the Government Plan is the extra money that you have bid for and that you are looking at, but what is the base budget? What was your base budget for 2019? Because this all builds on top of that.
The Minister for International Development: Yes. £10.34 million.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Over the course of the Government Plan, obviously it rises by quite a lot and you have got an extra £4 million or £5 million - almost £5 million - by 2023. What are your hopes over the time? How are you going to spend that over the course of the plan? What are your priorities?
The Minister for International Development:
How are we going to spend it? As you know, we carve our budget up, roughly speaking, into grants, into emergency aid, into local charities, community work projects. That is it, is it not? Yes. Also recently we have increased the amount we give in grants, because we find it has a greater impact if we can increase the amount and have the project for sometimes 2 or 3 years, so we can go into a country - which we have focused down on fewer countries now - and we have a greater impact. We can make an impact and build relationships with the people, get to know the culture and possibly build relationships with the governments as well.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Given that you are getting, by some departments' standards, quite a large rise, will you just be spending more on grants, more on emergency aid or are you expanding the programme outwards? How do you use that extra money?
The Minister for International Development:
We can spend our money 10 times over, as you can imagine. We are going through the process at the moment of sifting through all the applications we have for giving grants in our chosen countries in our 3 themes. We could spend the money 10 times over, so we are sifting through those now, as I say, and we will be able to give more grants, to respond to more applications, more proposals that we have. It is always good to be able to give to emergencies as and when they happen. We have not at this stage sat down, as the Commission, and worked out if we are going to give more in any particular areas because I think that is counting your chickens. We have made this proposal in the Government Plan, which we hope to get. The 2020 figure will just be putting us back up to our 2015 levels, so for the first year from here to 2020, we will be reversing the decline in our budget, because it has been going down in real terms.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
You mentioned earlier - I am not sure it is right to bring you to that now - you previously concentrated on 5 areas, you are reducing them to 3, and you are not continuing with water sanitation and hygiene, which in a way I would have thought are almost top of the agenda. Can you explain that further?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes. There are lots of N.G.O.s (non-government organisations) in that particular area, but what we want to try and do now is value add, not just give money, to give a bit of value added. For example, our financial inclusion projects, we have got financial expertise in the Island, so building on that. The dairy, we work very closely with R.J.A.&H.S. (Royal Jersey Agricultural and Horticultural Society), so we feel we have got the expertise in that particular area so we can add value to that project. Conservation livelihoods, we have got Durrell on-Island, and it helps us become known as a centre of excellence for particular themes. I do not know if Simon wants to add anything to that.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
I will just build on that, because that is exactly right. In fact, it answers Deputy Morel 's question, what are we going to do with the money, and this focus on these 3 areas is the real change over the next 5 years. As the Minister said, these are areas chosen because we think we can add the most value as Jersey, but people will ask us: "Why not health?" That seems the most obvious to do in development: "Why not water? Clean water and sanitation are so important everywhere" but all we can do when we support those projects is sign the cheques, really. Jersey does not have particular ... there are individuals of course in the Island, but there is no particular connection of Jersey, for example, to health or one aspect of it or to water and sanitation, whereas there is of course, as Carolyn was saying, in these other 3 areas. All areas are linked in development, so you can build health services and facilities somewhere, but then if people do not have the money, even basic bits of money to access them, they are useless. Children who are malnourished are going to need health services more, whereas ... for example, our dairy projects contribute to health in several ways. They increase household incomes, so that families can afford healthcare, and crucially they provide nourishment in early years for children, so hopefully they will not need healthcare. It is not that we are abandoning key areas of development, but just there are lots of ways to sort of approach the problem. We think Jersey's best way of approaching the problem is playing to our strengths.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Yes, I understand that and I am not challenging that in any way. Is there a risk that you might be challenged by the remark that the areas where you are concentrating on are, first, more projecting Jersey's identity for its own good, rather than doing the charitable good you are doing?
The Minister for International Development:
No. I think it is the other way around. I think we have the expertise here, so why not use it? Why not use it to benefit others? The cow project is a fantastic project. The fact that it is built on the Jersey cow is a good thing for Jersey, there is no denying that, but it is a fantastic thing, it is a fantastic project in itself. As I have said before, it has been very successful in Rwanda and Malawi and we are now looking at other places.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
As I say, I am not challenging you. I just wanted the sort of basis, the rationale.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
The feedback that I have had so far from professionals in the sector, other N.G.O.s, even health N.G.O.s who are now no longer able to get funding from us, has been: "Yes, we really understand why Jersey is doing this." They have appreciated that donors need to play to their strengths and to add as much value as possible, because we are adding more value for money for whatever budget we have. The feedback is not: "Oh, Jersey is just trying to burnish its reputation", it is: "Jersey is adding value where it can" so we have had lots of positive feedback so far about this, even from people who as a result of that are now no longer able to get funding.
The Deputy of St. Mary : Thanks for that firm riposte.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
The income forecasts in the Government Plan I would say are pretty generous. They are expecting things to carry on going pretty well, but obviously we do have challenges such as Brexit and we have our own challenges. We find it hard to get skills. If that skills crisis continues, it might mean that businesses start to look elsewhere because they do not believe they can hire here. What would happen if our income as a Government does not continue to rise in the way that is expected? Will these figures be adjusted downwards as a result?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes. Our budget is linked to G.V.A. (Gross Value Added). If the States annual budget goes up, our budget for the term of the Government Plan anyway is linked to G.V.A. Likewise, if it goes down, it will go down.
The Deputy of St. Mary : The business case says that.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, but that makes it quite unique among departments, in that I assume the Infrastructure Department is not linked to G.V.A. and so on, so ...
The Minister for International Development:
No, but you cannot do that with say a budget like education. Children have still got to be educated. Just because the States income has gone down, we might have to cut in other areas.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Yes, although of course there has been ... the States have approved a similar formula for helping arts, culture and so on. I am just wondering whether this is a trend for others, but hopefully not too many that can adapt to that.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
There is a good precedent for it, of course, in our sector, the international development and overseas aid sector. This target has been around, approved by the U.N. (United Nations) General Assembly in the 1970s, but been around even longer, of countries spending a fixed percentage of their national income on overseas aid. Unlike health and education or other ministries, overseas aid, there is long and quite distinguished precedent for overseas aid budgets to be expressed as a percentage of the value of national economies. Many other countries do also benchmark it. Of course at the minute we are looking at them and discussing with the Stats Department the best way to go about it, but several countries do. The U.K. (United Kingdom) does it, as I am sure you know, and spends 0.7 per cent of its national income, which is the U.N. target. Not only are we unlike most other heads of expenditure in Jersey, linking to G.V.A., but we are also unlike them all in that that amount in itself is a target, quite apart from what you do with it, but Jersey will be judged and benchmarked against what percentage of its national wealth is spent on overseas aid.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I was going to ask this question later, but I will ask it now. Looking at that 0.7 per cent, this morning I was in Scrutiny with the Environment Department. Now, one of the things that clearly stands out is that environment was really high on the manifestos of many candidates in the elections last year. I suggest that the public of Jersey are making it clear they want us to look after the environment, but the Environment Department, at the end of these 4 years, will have about £8 million; International Development have £12 million. The Environment Department is nowhere near even the 0.28 per
cent that you are looking at trying to get to, if you know what I mean. From the priorities of Islanders, how do you explain the fact that Overseas Aid - or International Development, apologies - is receiving so much more than such a priority as the environment, a priority for Islanders?
The Minister for International Development:
I agree, the environment is a priority. I think it is a priority in this Government Plan and it is the first time it has ever been a priority in any Government Plan or previous governments. That in itself is a good thing.
[14:45]
Jersey Overseas Aid is trying to sort of respond to our international obligations, Agenda 21 or what have you, 0.7 per cent, as Simon said, which certain countries achieve. Yes, I do not deny it is a lot of money, but it is part of our international obligations, it is our responsibilities. We operate in an international environment; we want to be considered as an international finance centre; we want to play on the international stage. We cannot sort of take some bits and shun away from our obligations in the others. Environment, I do not know exactly - I have an idea - where the money is going. It is quite possible that Environment could or should be making a case for more monies, but there is a lot of synergy between them and Infrastructure and some of the things that will benefit the environment that can be done with the Infrastructure Department can be done in other departments, possibly. The people that keep most of the land over here, the farmers, the agriculturalists, are doing that for nothing.
The Deputy of St. Mary : Not by choice.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
With the L.E.A.F. (Linking Environment and Farming) scheme, it is not for nothing. They get money in return for looking after the environment.
The Minister for International Development: Yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Sticking to that 0.7 per cent issue, we also hear that Jersey is constantly in deficit, apparently it is £30 million, things like that. Again, is this, in that sense, the right time to be putting up the contribution that we make to overseas aid, if we are constantly - and have been told for the last 10 years - in deficit?
At the end of the year we are going to be balancing the budget, so we are not in deficit.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
In that sense, fair enough. Also, how do you respond to the idea that many people think that charity starts at home, rather than overseas?
The Minister for International Development:
"But should not end there." Finish the quote, finish the sentence.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Notwithstanding the reputational benefits of providing overseas aid, what do you see as the other benefits for the Island?
The Minister for International Development:
As I said, we see ourselves as an international player, so we are responding and being an international global player.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I find it interesting, because we are not a sovereign nation.
The Minister for International Development: No.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You often write throughout your business case about the nation of Jersey, which does not exist, and it is interesting.
The Minister for International Development: Go on.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Yes. If I may suggest that that need not necessarily ... since we are financially independent of other sovereign nations, why should the fact that we are not fully sovereign exempt us from aspiring at least - even if we are still nowhere near even the average of rich countries in the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) - to punch not below our weight in these international rankings?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you think there is a danger ... I was just at the C.P.A. (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association) last week and when we got our delegate badges, it just said: "United Kingdom" on the bottom. I had to go and demand ...
The Minister for International Development: Wrong.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I know, I had to go and demand that they change it to Jersey. Do you think there is a danger that no matter what we do, really our reputation is going to be governed by what the U.K. does, in the sense that if they do not increase their overseas contributions, if they do not do better, that we kind of will just always reflect what they are doing in the U.K., no matter what we do with our budgets here?
The Minister for International Development:
I think that is why we need to play to our strengths and we should not necessarily be hiding away from our strengths. If we have got our 3 strategic aims, our 3 themes, why not respond in our areas of expertise that possibly stand us apart from the U.K.? I think it is important to not be frightened to form our own Island identity. You are saying that we respond the same as the U.K., but we ...
Deputy K.F. Morel :
No, I was just saying that we are often just ...
The Minister for International Development: We lump it together.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
... thought of as the U.K., if you know what I mean, yes.
The Minister for International Development:
I think there is a job of work to be done there, is there not, to be known for something? The J.F.L. (Jersey Finance Limited) reports say that we should at least aspire to be a centre of excellence in something, if that is the Jersey cow, if that is Durrell, conservation, if that is international finance, and through us, international financial inclusion.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
I would have thought that the C.P.A. should know better than ...
Deputy K.F. Morel :
They should have known better.
The Minister for International Development: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Given that they are all sovereign nations.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I know. I had to say something, that: "If I said you were from Kenya, would you be happy with that?" and she was: "Oh no, that ..." and I was like: "Thank you."
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Can I go back to your earlier remark about charity begins at home? I am not endorsing it, but there is a section in this headed: "Increasing involvement of Jersey charities to develop, work and build a cluster of the third sector in Jersey." How is that then to interact? Is there any question of the funds which come within the coffers of Overseas Aid somehow get diverted to local charities or is it simply expertise you are contributing to those local charities to enable more efficiencies?
The Minister for International Development:
I would say it is the expertise. If the finance sector is going to diversify, as it should do all the time, impact investing is an area that can attract a lot of money. We have, as I said, the financial expertise over here, but Jersey Overseas Aid's role in that could be looking at projects that could be invested in.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Yes. I think to add a couple of things into that response, exactly, as Carolyn said at the beginning, we have 4 funding streams, one of which is for Jersey-based and registered charities. These of course are charities not doing activities in Jersey, but Jersey charities which are working in Rwanda or Zambia or wherever. In the last 3 or 4 years, the percentage of our budget earmarked for these Jersey charities has risen hugely. We used to spend 3 per cent or 4 per cent of our budget on them. Last year we spent over 10 per cent for the first time. This year it will be 16 per cent. They range from Durrell and R.J.A.&H.S. down to kitchen table charities doing little ... there is a wonderful one doing things with humans in protected areas of Indonesia, for example. It is a literally a kitchen table of Jersey people doing amazing things abroad. But the value we bring is not just the funding we
give them, I hope, it is the rigour we have injected into the application and monitoring and reporting and the impact assessment process, which was not there, and which domestic funders are also trying to inject into the Jersey domestic charity scene. To put it in a nutshell, we have made it harder for charities to get money, but they are getting more money now, because they are meeting ... some of them, to be frank, we have stopped funding, but most now have risen to this challenge, because they have got better at planning and projects being governed, doing their accounts, at assessing their results. So we have made a contribution to the charity scene like that and we are also liaising with other funders based in Jersey. There are 2 groups, one chaired by the Lloyds Foundation, and one that we helped set up which focuses on people funding charities overseas, which is individual philanthropists as well as organisations. With that as well, we are trying to help them build their capacity to make good grants, to analyse projects, to do due diligence on charities. All of this will have a knock-on effect, we hope, on the health of the charity sector in Jersey. Grant-making is to some extent a transferable skill and we now think that we are quite good at it, we hope, when it comes to overseas charities and we hope we can help and some of that can rub off on some of the grant-making in charities domestically.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Can you just expand it slightly with a view to clarifying the future? There has been publicity lately about the lottery proceeds, that it is going to be allocated to certain sectors. Am I right in thinking that the charities who see money now from the association, all their funds go to local causes? There is no question of any overlap there, is there?
The Minister for International Development: No.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
I am just trying to anticipate questions being asked on that.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Simon, you mentioned the application process, and throughout the business case we read this interesting phrase: "double-gated application process." Would you be able to explain to us about that and why it is important and what the purpose of that is?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Sure, yes. Obviously one of the first most important things about making a good grant is picking the right people to give it to and that requires several things in itself. It requires a really good empirical analysis of what the organisation says it is going to achieve with that money: is it likely to happen; is it efficient; is it sustainable; is it relevant; what is the impact going to be? Also a decent assessment of the capabilities of that organisation: have they done it before; have they got the expertise; are they well-governed? All of these things. One of the many reforms that this Commission, chaired by Carolyn, has introduced - and there is a list of them in the back of the business case to try and make our grant-making more effective and professional - is first of all the creation of a professional unit in Jersey, Overseas Aid, to bring some specialist knowledge about overseas development and charities themselves, but then a process whereby new grants that are made - and as Carolyn has said, we were doing this yesterday - are made not just on the basis of one part of the system, Jersey Overseas Aid or its commissioners approving, but both have to approve. This was lodged also as a sort of delegation of powers with the States, so it needs a sort of 2 keys in the lock process for something to be approved, which adds a great amount of scrutiny and oversight and hopefully expertise and makes it less likely that we are going to fund the wrong thing. Of course it does not end there. That is the beginning.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I was going to say, going through, towards the end of the process you also talk about having reformed the measurement and the kind of assessment. Would you mind explaining how you have changed that and kind of what you are hoping to give Islanders by having ...
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Are you happy for me to chunter on?
The Minister for International Development: Yes, absolutely.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Because I could bore for England on this.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
So do we not need to know our money is being spent wisely and effectively?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Yes, and that exactly follows on from what I was saying, so you make the grants, you make sure not only that the project is likely to work, also that the charity can handle and will properly administer the money, and then the project starts. We have moved from these short, small one-year projects, which were often capital-intensive, building or buying something, to 3 or 4-year projects, which have a hope of changing things in a sustainable way. But you do not just write the cheque and say: "Right, see you in a few years", you pay in tranches against agreed milestones governed by a grant agreement, which sets it out very clearly. This is also another one of the things we have introduced,
which sets out very clearly what the obligations are of the grantee in terms of reporting, procurement, partner selection, terrorist financing, a whole range of things. Your job then as the donor is to make sure that they are not just sticking to the terms of this agreement, but that the project is progressing. You have got various levers to pull. Obviously one of the key ones is to withhold the next tranche payment, and we do it relatively often, not with most grants or even ... but it happens every month or 2 that we will say: "No, you are not ready for your year 2 payment because you have not reached this target of the number of people reached" or: "We are a bit worried about your financial reporting" or something. So there is that degree of oversight all the time. Then at the end of the process we will expect, as well as these interim narrative and financial reports, a final report. At the end of that, we will expect now an independent final evaluation. We have introduced the guideline that about 5 per cent of a grant should be spent on M.E.A.L. (Monitoring, Evaluation, Accountability and Learning).
[15:00]
It is not just then that grantees can learn from their mistakes, that we can learn from their mistakes, but also hopefully that they can share this information so that others learn from their mistakes or indeed learn from what they have done well and help to replicate and scale it. We have really changed the way that ... we have changed the emphasis we give it and we have changed the way that we monitor and oversee grants and put a real emphasis on the outcomes, the results, and of course even selecting it in the first place. We are not interested in people who say: "We are going to dig a well." You have to just keep asking "why" questions: "What is the impact of that going to be?" "People are going to have clean water." Again: "So what?" "It is going to improve the health of the children in the village so that they attend school more and that improves their grades, and it is going to allow the women to make a bit more money from their vegetable gardens and be less likely to be assaulted on the way to the well to get water." So then you have got 3 outcomes that you can measure and see whether this project has been successful. Did the grades improve? Were women assaulted less? Did household incomes rise? At the basis of every project is that very empirical analysis: will it work, has it worked, and if it did, what lessons can we share with other grantees?
The Minister for International Development: Is it sustainable?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You talk a lot about reputation, and certainly by aligning it with, as you said, the 3 kind of key areas that Jersey has expertise in, it is clear that you are trying to use Jersey's overseas aid as a way of developing Jersey's international reputation. You are not trying to hide that, you are quite clear about that, but how do you go about trying to make sure that it is not just the countries in which we are working where that reputation increases? Because as wonderful as it may be that Malawi or Ethiopia learn about Jersey and we gain a better reputation in Malawi or Ethiopia as a result, they are probably not key business partners, so to speak, with Jersey. Yes, how do you make sure that our reputation benefits in the areas of the world where we need it to benefit perhaps more so?
The Minister for International Development:
I think having a good reputation and having things that we are particularly focused on is a reputation that can build. You say "do business in" and I am not entirely sure what kind of business.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It could be, for instance, we got the global market strategy from External Relations, that sort of thing, so we would perhaps want China to think that, because that is part of their global market strategy, or India and so on. We might want to build our reputation, as you said, as a global kind of nation. If it is not going to be in those areas, how are you going to make sure that your work in Ethiopia again builds our reputation in China, for instance?
The Minister for International Development:
I think if we can demonstrate the projects that we are involved with in these countries, which we can, for example, when we were in Rwanda in June - I think it was June - there was the World Cattle Bureau A.G.M. (annual general meeting) there, so that was attended by 20 different countries, a lot of those who are in Africa, but a lot were not. This was a focus on what we were doing in Africa, so that was building on our reputation there from those 20 countries. Conservation livelihoods again is something that Durrell have done a fantastic job to raise the profile of the headquarters of Durrell being in Jersey. How do you get a reputation? You hopefully do good, do things well and word will spread.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
One thing I think though is I met a parliamentarian from Rwanda earlier this year. She was kind of their head of scrutiny of government function, so she was there to look at what their Government were doing and scrutinise that, so I quite proudly said: "Oh, Jersey is doing so much work in Rwanda" thinking that she should know about this, because she is checking what the Government does, and I know the Government of Rwanda and the Government of Jersey have done quite a lot of work together. She knew nothing about Jersey at all and I was kind of like ... and I think she thought: "Well, I should have known about that." But that was in that sense, so we are working in Rwanda, we have good relations with the Government in Rwanda. Here was a key person in the Parliament of Rwanda who had no clue about Jersey, so that is why I am asking. Is it very difficult to transfer this kind of reputational benefit to other places if even in Rwanda we are not heard of within the Parliament there and we have worked there for a long time now?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes, I would dispute that, because we are having meetings with the Minister for Agriculture, so some areas of their Parliament know about Jersey. But it is ...
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, and I appreciate that. That is why I said we work with their Government and their Government knows about us, but perhaps not so much the Parliament.
The Minister for International Development:
Certainly External Relations and J.F.L. can use all of the stuff we are doing, and they should be as well, all the stuff we are doing in Africa and other countries. How Simon has set up our grant-making operations and processes I think is a fantastic example of how things should be done and it is up to other departments, I feel, to sort of look at what we are doing. We are not hiding it here, and certainly when External Relations travel to China, I think Jersey milk is known in some quarters in China, but they can sort of take and show and demonstrate what the Jersey cow can do, if it is about the Jersey cow or financial inclusion. We work with C.G.A.P. (Consultative Group to Assist the Poorest), which is part of the World Bank, so that is a really good sector of finance as a whole. We are hoping, as time goes on, to get a reputation for financial inclusion, how we go about it.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
On the question of financial reputation, you have your criteria for selecting nations who benefit. Do you want any more? Do you need any more? What would happen if another Cabinet came forward? How far ahead are you looking? Other countries who suddenly realise the wonderful work you do, how difficult would it be for them to make an application to you?
The Minister for International Development:
We have got a criteria for selecting countries and they have got to be in 50 poorest.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
I realise that, yes, but I am saying you have your programme already worked out. I mean, how easy is it for another country to break into this?
The Minister for International Development: They have got to be poor, for a start.
The Deputy of St. Mary : Not corrupt is another.
The Minister for International Development: Not corrupt.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
They are corrupt, it is whether we can manage that corruption.
The Deputy of St. Mary : Yes, you are right.
The Minister for International Development:
Sometimes if they go up the scale, if they become wealthier, they drop off our countries.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Yes, but we had External Relations before us not long ago. They were talking about one of their agents in Africa was based in Nairobi, which is known to not fit, sadly, with what you are after.
The Minister for International Development: No.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
No. Kenya unfortunately does not score as well as it might, either on the needs or the corruption front, but I think it is fair to say that the commissioners review the country list each year. The goal, as much as choosing the right countries, in one way is to choose a small number and stick with them because there are lots of benefits from that, both in terms of reputation, as people get to know what you are doing, and your own ability to make good programming decisions in those countries as you learn who is who, how different departments function, whether the U.N. is any good there, these sort of things that just take a while to get to know. I think we are probably more wedded to our 3 themes than to our 6 countries, but certainly the goal for the next 4 or 5 years, unless something major happens, is to stick to those countries. But if suddenly Botswana came along and there was a real opportunity to Jersify its dairy herd or something, the commissioners would obviously be interested in hearing its arguments. We are not just going to say: "No, we have made our decisions. Come and see us in 2024."
The Minister for International Development:
Ghana recently started to improve its score on the H.D.I. (Human Development Index) and I think it went up to 140. We felt, on the Commission, that it was not as poor as it needed to be to be funded by Jersey, even though Ghana we know is on one of External Relations ... I think it is the B list.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, it is on the global.
The Minister for International Development:
But we are not going to fund a country because External Relations ... it could never work that way around. They can use what we are doing in countries to show the good that we are doing, if you like, but we would never go into a country just because ...
The Deputy of St. Mary :
I suppose we are asking, in a way, is your reputation such that that would influence one of these countries to come to heel?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Difficult with that sum of money, to be perfectly honest. Even it is hard for the Brits or Americans to really change the way a country is governed and set up, but we like to think that every bit of ... the fact that we take corruption into account, the fact that we have got and we are getting an even better reputation in these 3 areas, countries now are interested in us working with them, rather than us knocking on their door. Every bit is a push in the right direction and I think Jersey is sending a strong message that, as far as I know, it is the only country that takes corruption into account when choosing its own ...
The Deputy of St. Mary :
That is where it counts and good on you for doing so.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I mentioned earlier - and although I said it with a smile on my face, I was being honest in my perception, if you know what I mean - that in many of these countries corruption exists, it still exists and it will exist after we have been, gone and finished the job, so to speak. How do you manage that corruption to ensure that taxpayers' money is not disappearing into politicians' pockets or other official pockets, because it is not just politicians?
The Minister for International Development:
No. We are dealing with the N.G.O.s as opposed to the governments.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you select those N.G.O.s? Because obviously we have heard about corruption within some of the most famous N.G.O.s in Britain recently.
The Minister for International Development:
Yes, we do select them, and they have to go through a due diligence programme before they can apply for monies.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
That is again one of the reforms that this Commission has introduced, which radically improves the grant-making and reduces the chance of taxpayers' money going astray. The level of due diligence on the grantees is now really quite high, because it involves another 2-stage process in terms of application, desk reviews and then field visits, where we go really with a fine-tooth comb to these charities in-country and follow a receipt from payment request to execution to reporting, look at their whistle-blowing policy, look at the way they are governed, look at their procurement, which is one of the highest-risk areas for development projects, and look at their processes and grill the more junior employees about whether they know the tender thresholds and all of this kind of thing. As Carolyn said, we do not really give much to other governments, so we are not very exposed in that respect. Bull semen aside, we are not unlike the U.K., so we are not a bilateral donor, we are not giving budget support to a ministry, but even charities themselves of course can be corrupt. It is also another reason why J.O.A. (Jersey Overseas Aid) exists and why you do not just write a cheque every year. You could say: "Let us take 0.28 per cent, sure, and write a cheque to the Red Cross and be done with it" but take the Red Cross even, one of the best, most established development actors and humanitarian actors in the world, they closed their Liberia office after Ebola, because so much money was coming in, there was so much temptation that there was some local corruption and they had to sort it out. They have had issues dotted around all over the place. I do not say this to bring opprobria on them, quite the reverse. They are excellent at finding corruption and sniffing it out and doing something about it, but even the Red Cross could be really good in one country and slightly dodgy in another country and then you would not want to give it money in another country. That level of diligence that we try and exert on deciding who to fund and then that kind of strong pair of eyes on the project as it goes along is another way of making sure that money would not be stolen.
[15:15]
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you ever kind of use external auditors or third parties to go out there into the country to check? Because I am assuming you do not really have enough of a staff to be sending people constantly yourselves, if you know what I mean.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: No.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you use third parties to run those checks as well?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Obviously we make sure that all accounts are audited and we look through 2 years of audited accounts. All our partners also have to do a level of due diligence using a form we devised on any of their partners to which there are sub-grants.
Deputy K.F. Morel : I see, yes.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
They have to be audited by the equivalent of KPMG or whoever it is locally, which you will even find in Malawi. The commissioners have just introduced for grants next year, as we have again increased the size of grants, a requirement for a project audit, as opposed to just an organisational audit. So from now on, new projects will need to have an independent project audit at the end as well and they have to set-aside value for that from the grants at the beginning.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Yes, so that is why, in this case, you would refer to a guideline of 5 per cent. Is that what you are talking about? 5 per cent set-aside for the ...
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Separate. On top of that. Separate from that, yes.
Senator K.L. Moore :
Yes, this is the independent one.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Mary : Okay.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
So that would be the audit or the evaluation of the impact and effectiveness and relevance and sustainability of the project. Did it work? What benefit did it bring to people? We do a separate financial audit of the project as well from now on.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Obviously we know and you know very well that overseas aid has had a decline in budget over the years. You are both working really hard to change that. Do you think this extra governance is enabling this kind of increase in funding for the department, if you know what I mean? Is that a key part of enabling you to get more taxpayers' money?
The Minister for International Development:
I think we have 2 areas of responsibility. We have an area of responsibility to the world's poor - that is why this was set up - and the Jersey taxpayer. So we have to ensure that any monies we receive, any monies we give out is having an impact, but we are doing it in the utmost professional way in setting up these processes of grant-giving in a double lock. We know that we are answerable to the taxpayer and we have to show and demonstrate that any monies that we give out, what is happening with it, what due diligence, who are the beneficiaries, what is happening on the ground and how that project goes on and is sustainable. Yes, it is a double-edged sword.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Going back to this idea of us using the expertise we have here as best we can so you have your financial inclusion, conservation and dairy, but one thing about the countries that you are choosing and one thing that struck me is that we have expertise in being an Island. We are an island. We have always been an island and there are small island developing states which are especially faced with climate change and face some of the largest challenges in the world of all nations or all jurisdictions. Is there a reason why you have not gone down the road of trying to focus on islands? Because it strikes me that Ethiopia is a massive country, even Rwanda. As I said, that leading scrutiny politician had never heard of Jersey and what we did in Rwanda, so I can only think in these even larger countries, our message gets completely lost, whereas in a small island of 30,000 people, work we do would have an even bigger effect, if you know I mean. Is there a reason why islands do not figure strongly?
The Minister for International Development:
No, I do not think we have ever considered it in those terms, that one island is helping another, other than politically, which is what you have just been doing.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Yes, exactly. On the face of it, it sounds like a really intriguing idea and you say you have not looked at it, but of course you have looked at all of the possible recipients of aids of this tool. There are 2 issues with small islands. One is that many of them now are not the poorest countries in the world, especially those in the Western hemisphere and even some of those off Africa are now closer to middle income or upper middle income countries. Generally speaking, the poorest small islands tend to be the Pacific nations still and then that leaves us with a problem, that it is really hard to do that level of oversight on projects that are literally the other side of the world. We can visit things in Ethiopia and Malawi and we can go and check out the charities that work there and we have other ways of getting information, but in Nauru or Palau, it is really hard.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I met a guy from Nauru. He pronounced it as "Naru", but yes, it was really interesting. I have lost my train of thought now, apologies for that. Yes, the External Relations funding. Going into the actions of what you are doing, one of the actions in the Government Plan is to ensure that Jersey continues to engage effectively with relevant multilateral bodies. This is very much led by external relations in terms of the O.E. C.D ., the World Trade Organisation and possibly the I.M.F. (International Monetary Fund) and the World Bank and so on, but you are involved in that as a department, so can you give us further details of the involvement you will have?
The Minister for International Development:
We have involvement with the World Bank through C.G.A.P. and financial inclusion and we have fed in very much with our Comic Relief programme that we have in 3 countries, the financial inclusion programmes there. We attended the C.G.A.P. World Bank A.G.M. in Lebanon this May and participated in their workshops. The O.E. C.D . are involved.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You are having correspondence?
The Minister for International Development:
External Relations. We assist them. For example, when there was repatriation of funds to Kenya, we assisted them with that.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: The U.N.
The U.N.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, in November.
The Minister for International Development:
Yes, and the U.N.O.C.H.A. (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) as well because we fund O.C.H.A. (Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs).
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Obviously the lead Minister is the Minister for External Relations. How does the funding work there? How do you get your hands on funding within that overall umbrella and that action of engaging with multilateral bodies?
The Minister for International Development: No, that is the External Relations budget.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is just entirely. So you may well engage, but from a financial perspective, you do not have funding ...
The Minister for International Development: Yes, that is a very good idea.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
So no monies have been allocated from that fund?
The Minister for International Development: No.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
The national identity is something I am fascinated about. Can you tell us a bit more about the action to develop an action plan to bring a stronger, more inclusive sense of Island identity?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes. This features in a couple of the themes in the Strategic Plan where it says: "We will promote and protect Jersey's interests, profile and reputation internationally and we will nurture a diverse and inclusive society." In fact, Island identity features in the Government Plan too either directly or indirectly. It was felt that a lot of strands need pooling together. The arts and culture and heritage bodies are one thing. They are their own entities and they are doing a wonderful job and hopefully they will do even more with their increased funding. The Island identity is something. You have just been away on the C.P.A. Who do we say we are? Who are we internationally and as an Island? As the population has grown, we feel that there are focus points that need to draw the population together so that even if it is a case of sort of teaching citizenship in the schools, teaching not only children but adults how our Parliament, our Government and our Island works, there are areas that we can promote and enhance. I hope that I am doing that to some extent on overseas aid, but I think it is very difficult when you have visiting people here. What is the message we are giving to people? I keep on saying it. Let us change the narrative. Who are we? I think there is a piece of work that needs to be done to draw all these strands together. Who are our writers, our painters and, as an Island, who are we?
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, absolutely. It is really interesting because my next question, had you not said that, was to ask if the Island identity you talk about in terms of development is one that we project. Whereas to me, the question I was going to ask is we do not have one locally, if you know what I mean.
The Minister for International Development: Yes, exactly.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
But I can still kind of ask that. With all this other work the Government is doing in these other areas - culture, heritage and education - how are you bringing that work to inform the Island identity you are projecting internationally?
The Minister for International Development:
I think it should start here. Who are we and what is our Island's identity before we can project anything internationally? I think we have all the strands in our Island, our fantastic restaurants, the sort of backdrop, the beaches and the countryside. What are we doing to promote cycling and all those kind of things that could make us a much more inclusive Island? What are we doing to educate and, as I say, to bring it together and then go and project? It does not mean that we have to stand still while this price of work ... we will carry on doing on overseas aid and promoting what we consider are our strengths and how we can give value internationally. If that forms or helps form our local identity, then that is good.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is there a danger that because of your financial inclusion, dairy and conservation - especially the first 2 - Jersey could just become famous for cows and money, if you know what I mean?
The Minister for International Development:
I think we are famous for money. In what context that is, I am not entirely sure.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Some charities have not helped, yes.
The Minister for International Development:
Exactly. Financial inclusion is quite a nice one to be famous for.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Conservation.
The Minister for International Development: Conservation and the Jersey cow.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is that a bit gimmicky, if you know what I mean, given that our cow herd is disappearing fast before our eyes? There are 5,000 on the Island.
The Minister for International Development:
Yes, it is changing in some countries at the moment.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
To throw it in the mix, we have gone on now without mentioning the dreaded word of Brexit, which is a feat in itself.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It is basically because we are talking international.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Is it right to perhaps think that there is not a reluctance to hold off for the moment on projecting ourselves? Brexit is an important damper on things at the moment, is it not?
The Minister for International Development:
I think it is more important now than ever to project or to enhance. We have it all here. I just do not think we promote it ourselves enough in the right areas and I think now more than ever we should be doing that.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
I am not disagreeing with you. All I am saying is that those who might want to project it might want a bit more certainty before they do in certain areas. That is all. Brexit is stopping that, I suspect. Sorry, we are here to ask you questions.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Sticking with the Island identity as well, there is going to be a positive development board set up. Will you have a position on that positive development board?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes. The idea is I will chair it and there will be some officers, some interested parties and a couple of politicians that are interested in it. The panel may change depending on what areas we are looking at. If we are looking at the environment, how we enhance and promote our environment, we might sort of get different Members to work on that.
[15:30]
The Deputy of St. Mary :
So you could have a Scrutiny approach. Our staff panels possibly could look into it.
The Minister for International Development:
Possibly. I am hoping the terms of reference are going to be signed off this week and they relate to various different areas in the Government Plan and I am more than happy to let you have the terms of reference and the appendices that go with it that refer to different areas of the Government Plan. The idea is to do a scoping exercise and formulate guidance and an action plan for different departments so that they can pool together and work on and promote different areas that will promote our Island identity.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you. Going back to money et cetera, obviously most of your budget disappears in terms of grants. It is used in terms of grants.
The Minister for International Development:
We are doing a bad job if we keep any of it.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Except that, as it says here, by May 2019, J.O.A. would have 4 fulltime equivalents plus an intern, so obviously there are some staff costs et cetera. How does it break down? How does your administrative side versus your grant-giving side break down in terms of the amounts of money?
The Minister for International Development: I think it is 3.8 per cent of the budget.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: That is not just staff costs.
The Minister for International Development: That is overheads.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: That is visits, rent and materials.
The Minister for International Development: Everything.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
All of the - I would call it - administrative costs.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Yes, administrative costs.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
You have a new office as well.
The Minister for International Development: We have the loft in the Town Hall .
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Was that an increase in rent or a decrease in rent?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Was it?
The Minister for International Development: Yes.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
So you are funding St. Helier ?
The Minister for International Development:
We were paying nothing for our cupboard in Cyril Le Marquand House so now we have to pay something.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
On the topic of admin costs, it is really hard to benchmark what other donors spend because they do not like publishing it and they hide some of their figures in consulting costs, for example. There was a study a few years back though which did look at what all the O.E. C.D . aid donors spent on admin costs and the average was 7 per cent. So we are roughly half of that and because they benefit from economies of scale, they are making programmes of 100 million because, relatively speaking, our grants are smaller and we are doing even better, I think. To do the level of the empirical projects, election and this very high level of oversight and diligence on the project needs staff, quite apart from the fact that this also goes back to your question about reputation, that it allows us also, with the commissioners and the Minister, to fly a flag for Jersey to represent the Island in different forums and at the U.N. and the World Bank and groupings of donors. It is in those often where people say: "What is Jersey doing?" at a teleconference in Damascus about Syrian aid or: "Why is the Constable of Trinity in the Central African Republic?"
Deputy K.F. Morel : They are still asking that.
The Minister for International Development:
We also have 3 States commissioners and 3 non-States commissioners who give their time for nothing and all 3 of them are hugely qualified in their particular areas, so that is a benefit. The fourth, the intern that you mentioned, we have had 3 so far and they are all a success story. The first 2 have been offered International Development jobs and the third one just went off on Friday to do her placement in London.
If I was being cynical, I would say you are contributing to Jersey's brain drain. That is a joke.
The Minister for International Development:
Hopefully they will come back and work for Jersey O.E. C.D .
Deputy K.F. Morel : Absolutely.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
So these are interns that you have passed on to the wider world. Do you ever realise you are a good nursery for such people and do they ask you for people?
The Minister for International Development: Yes.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Yes. We were asked today at the R.J.A.&H.S. and that is adding to our reputation too. One of the nice side effects, let us say, and not the goals of this internship programme is that after relatively few years, 10 or 12 years, there will be Jersey people in mid-level or senior positions in N.G.O.s, U.N. agencies, development finance institutions around the world, which helps the Island as well and then ultimately we do not want them back yet. When or if they follow that path - as a lot of people do when they come to Jersey more towards the middle of their career - that is then a resource that we can draw on. So it will benefit us as well as the Island eventually, but at the minute the goal is to benefit them. As Carolyn said, for us the measure of success at the minute is have they got decent jobs in the sector.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I am delighted that they have found careers. It is superb. Can I ask, over the course of this 4-year Government Plan, do you expect to see the number of fulltime equivalents increasing or you expect to keep it the same? Are you empire-building?
The Minister for International Development: I know Simon would like to increase it.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: If I am allowed to.
A good answer.
The Minister for International Development:
Simon would like too, yes. There is a healthy tension between that one. I think we are doing okay at the moment.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Better than we were.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Another interesting thing in the business case is you mentioned your electronic grant management system. I am just going to throw a political one in there. It strikes me that there was a bit of discussion recently about the aborted award of a grant, Jersey's charity grants being put out to the U.K., where obviously I would expected that company would have had an electronic grant management system and done that. Number one, how is that electronic grant management system working? Has it been successful? Number 2 is while not suggesting that you necessarily distribute the grants locally for Jersey, is the expertise you have in this area something that you could help develop locally for another organisation?
The Minister for International Development:
We would be more than happy to help any organisation develop the grants. This is where we come into the tension of needing more staff, you see, but yes, we have developed it. Simon has developed it. I would be happy to roll it out as a model for grant-giving so if any organisation wants to learn from us, Simon will ...
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
We have launched it softly. We have procured it on the Channel Islands portal through proper procurement channels. The winning bidder supplies grant management systems to research councils and other donors and we built it according to our own criteria with them and we have launched it in a fairly soft way so that the new grants from next year have all applied on the system. At the same time, behind the scenes, we have transferred our live grants on to it and it gives us the ability to improve the management of grants: "Have we had the financial report in before we pay the next tranche?" There is a sort of workflow improvement to us, but it also helps us manage our data and helps us answer questions: "How much money have we given to Rwanda in a particular sector over the years?" Otherwise we resort to looking back over spreadsheets or annual reports so it helps us with that too. The thing is set up with our own application forms and reporting guidelines
which might be different domestically. We have put 2 other Jersey-based donors on to the track of this particular system and one will introduce it and one is thinking about it, so that itself is transferable. But then, as I said, we are specialists in overseas aid, but we are also, I hope, specialists in grant-making which is to say the due diligence, the analysis, the oversight, the evaluation, the outcomes assessment and those are transferable.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
Can I ask if Economic Development have been in touch with you in relation to their problem at the moment?
The Minister for International Development:
Yes, and Simon has a meeting set up within a week.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Friday morning, but we are not rushing into that space because there are definitely ways we can help and I hope transfer skills and expertise and even potentially systems, but there are pluses and minuses about Jersey's dedicated overseas aid organisation also getting involved in domestic charity funding. You can ask us again on the 18th, I think, when you next see us how that is.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I could ask them as well. It also mentions the appointment of the Accounting Officer within Jersey Overseas Aid. Who could that be or is that you?
The Minister for International Development: For the purpose of the recording, Simon Boas.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Has that happened?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
It has not happened yet. The law now makes it possible to happen. The machinery of government changes. We were mentioned specifically and this happened with several arm's-length type bodies of the ability now of governments - or rather, the Executive - to appoint an accountable officer. We have no objection to that. If it happens, that is fine. It is one of a raft of measures that have improved our accountability in the last couple of years, one of which in fact is even the appointment of a Minister. There is now this channel to Scrutiny and to C.O.M. (Council of Ministers) which we never had before, in addition to the accountability of individual commissioners to the States which appointed them. The public finance manual has a section detailing how we touch central
government and where we do plug in. So I think we have improved our accountability across the board. Whether or not the appointment of an accountable officer happens remains to be seen.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Do you think it will affect your role extensively?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
No. The commissioners gave it some thought because one of the key things I think worth preserving is both the independence of the Commission and the fact that I, as Director, am appointed by them and accountable to them, to the Minister of course, but also to the Minister as Chair of the Commission. It is always a tightrope in every country and I think it is one Jersey has walked quite well so far in maintaining enough distance for its overseas aid to maintain its credibility and its independent decision-making while also of course keeping it accountable first and not a million miles away from the policy objectives of the country jurisdiction. I think that is one that has worked quite well so far.
The Minister for International Development:
Yes. That was the Accounting Officer, but certainly like being Minister, we could have stayed as we were at sort of arm's length out there, but we would not have been nearly as accountable and also I have found it incredibly useful, I have to say, to sit around the C.O.M. to feed into the Government Plan, the Strategic Plan with everything that we are trying to do.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Is there a danger of being officially an Accountable Officer would bring the Executive here trying to tell you what to do? So could it have been your independence that you walked a line so far?
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
There is a danger when anything changes like that, but I think it is one that we can minimise and I think the fact that it is the Commission answerable to the States and the Minister answerable to C.O.M. and all of us answerable to Scrutiny, which is setting J.O.A.'s strategy and policy. Then it is my job as the Director and in charge of J.O.A. to then deliver that policy. It sets some quite clear tramlines for us to operate in and I think another key piece of that puzzle which we have not mentioned, which is part of the plan and we have talked about before, is the 5-year strategy for overseas aid, which will be published.
The Minister for International Development:
We are hoping in the New Year. We are waiting to see how the Government Plan fares in the States and see what we will start the New Year with, but it is certainly something that we have been working on, a 5-year strategy, to sort of complement this.
The Deputy of St. Mary :
So the point I was going to raise then was I see there is to be an M.O.U. (memorandum of understanding) as well, which having come across M.O.U.s before, they should not be underrated at the time of preparation. I am sure you will have written in there an appropriate degree of independence.
[15:45]
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:
Exactly, thank you. Yes, that is something we are working on at the minute and we have also done with Treasury a draft section of the public finance manual that deals with us. The basic view is we want to be held to not just the same but sometimes even higher standards, certainly high standards that all recipients of taxpayers' money are held to, but some things in the financial directives or in the public finance manual, it is difficult to apply to us because they are written for domestic entities. For example, there is a section on grant-making which is cut out for making grants to Jersey-based organisations. It will have limits on overhead costs and certain strictures which grant-makers should follow do not really apply if you are making grants for an organisation doing cholera relief in Yemen. In fact, instead of that, we have then said: "No, we will not follow that but we will follow our policies and procedures which we have set out here." Travel is another one. The States travel agent HRJ I am sure has many merits, but booking you a guesthouse in rural Malawi is not part of its skillset. We have looked into it very closely and we think we can get better value from 2 specialist travel agents that specialise in travel for international N.G.O.s. So again, we have carved out an exception for us in that, but we are very happy to be held accountable and responsible for following either the States policies or our own policies in all of these areas.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Just one I forgot to ask about the Island identity. Is there any kind of budget allocation against that work?
The Minister for International Development: No, not as yet.
Deputy K.F. Morel : Is there likely to be?
I do not know about a set budget because a lot of it will be action plan guidelines for departments, but if there is anything needed, I think it will come out of the Executive budget.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
I was going to ask if it would be the Chief Minister's Department as opposed to International Development.
The Minister for International Development:
No, it will not come out of International Development.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Yes, that is fine. Absolutely fine. Do you want to ask anything?
The Deputy of St. Mary : No, thanks.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Really interesting. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
The Minister for International Development: All right, thank you.
Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Thank you very much.
[15:47]