Transcript -Government Plan: Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Panel -Minister for Infrastructure -19 September 2019

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Government Plan Review Hearing Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Thursday, 19th September 2019

Panel:

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman) Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour , The Minister for Infrastructure

Mr. J. Rogers, Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment

Ms. E. Littlechild, Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment Mr. J. Littlewood, Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment

Mr. T. Daniels, Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment Mr. T. Dodd, Director of Transport

[14:31]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman):

Welcome to the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. We look forward to discussing the various Government Plan items that we have been flagging up and we look forward to developing a discussion on those. It is probably useful from the point of view of the record just to identify ourselves. So, I will start off by saying I am Constable Mike Jackson , chairman of the panel.

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Savour:

I am Constable Sadie Le Sueur -Rennard, member of the panel.

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment: Tim Daniels. I am the Interim Director of Jersey Property Holdings.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

John Littlewood. I am Head of Finance Business Partnering for Growth, Housing and Environment.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Deputy Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

John Rogers, Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment.

Director of Transport:

Tristan Dodd, Head of Transport.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Ellen Littlechild, Group Director for Operations and Transport.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Alison at the back?

Speaker:

Alison, ministerial support for the Minister for Infrastructure.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you very much. We put through a question list. What I would like to do - I think it would be more useful - is if we can just do things a little bit the other way round and start by talking about the capital projects. It is just that they will probably lead into some of the other bits and pieces. So, from the point of view of the documents which you may have, if we kick off with question 15 on. Does that make sense?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : John looks lost.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, I was going to say I do not think we have question numbers. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It will be trick stuff then, will it not? Broadly, in that space we will ... there is capital projects which you know all about anyway. I think clearly, Minister, you will lead on a number of the capital projects. Could you let us now know how you are taking into account the sustainable wellbeing of the inhabitants of Jersey, talking holistically, over successive generations when developing and delivering these projects as per the requirements of the Public Finances (Jersey) Law? So, what I am talking about is the economic, social, environmental and cultural wellbeing.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Right. Who wants to kick off with that one about the wellbeing?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I suppose we could say that within the business cases that have been done there are measures within there, within most of them, as to how the economic framework perhaps behind some of the bids or the benefits that are produced by them could be taken into account or measured. In addition, some of the particular projects, such as the foul sewer extensions, perhaps would be an example where some of the benefits to the wider community in the more remote areas may be taken into account.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Indeed.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think we are talking about ... is it 97 per cent coverage now?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: A bit less than that, Minister. I think it is about 91 per cent.

The Minister for Infrastructure: A bit less than that.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Ninety-one per cent.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. It would be lovely to get the whole Island on to mains drains, but it is an ambition of mine before I leave the States to have as many people on sewerage as we possibly can, on mains drains sewerage that is. But in 2022 we will be coming online with the new sewage plant and thereafter there is a lot of stormwater separation projects going on at the moment. I would like to extend the foul sewer network through the north to the northern parishes and, as I say, there are a few outlying pockets. I do not think we will ever be able to reach everybody because there are some quite remote residences, but we will get as many people as possible on foul sewers as we can. We do a tie-up with Jersey Water. If we are trenching up that way, they will come behind us and put in the fresh mains water as well, so the 2 go hand in hand as much as possible.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Are you still relying on landowners to be co-operative with everything?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The main roads we ... obviously we can go up through the main roads but regarding the little hamlets off into the countryside, yes. I do refer people to the Constables in the parish as well. People often complain that they are being asked for a fee to cross over somebody's land, which is unfortunate. There are modern systems, which John would know more than I about, where you do not need a manhole cover every 50 yards now. With the modern techniques they can bury the pipes quite deeply with a tunnelling machine that goes through and drags the pipe behind. So it is less intrusive into the fields, but a lot of farmers still want a fee. But conversely it does put the value of the house up considerably if you are on mains water and mains drains.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Are there many properties still on tight tanks?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There is a significant number still on tight tanks. There are a lot of properties now that also have their own package plants and such like that. As the Minister mentioned, we now have 91 per cent of the Island connected to the mains drains because there has been a lot of development in town where we have been able to connect to the main drain system. We have not done a foul sewer extension since 2004. Back then we had about 100 schemes drawn up. What we are looking at doing next year - and we are starting this year - is looking at reviewing all of those schemes and setting up the sewer working party again. That party will have a criteria to go through and prioritise those schemes and decide which ones get taken forward.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Is all of St. Helier now on main drains?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I am sure there are some properties that are not connected on to the mains drains but the majority would be.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I can understand the water because people are funny about the water. They do not want to lose their well, they want to keep their well, but I just wondered about the main drains because I know in St. Helier there are a lot of places that are not.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, there are still some, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : A lot of it is stubbornness.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, it is, it is. Old people, it has served them so they do not want change.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There are a lot of combined sewers in St. Helier and that is a key priority for us. They are hard to get to, they are deep and they cause a lot of disruption, so you have to plan that very carefully. Going back to the original question, Minister, sorry, the measurement of sustainability and the measurement of the environmental impact and the wellbeing impact of projects is one of the reasons that the business case is a bit wordy, but they have done it in a format which is more ... it is in line with a U.K. (United Kingdom) Treasury Green Book style and approach, which does not just express the need and the fiscal elements, it is expressing the benefits of the capital projects beyond just a fiscal measure. This is probably one of the first times we have had that consistency across the States where the same business case process has been gone through regardless of what the project is. So it has been quite a rigorous process. That is why the files are 2 inches thick and hurt my arm carrying them across. The benefit to that is potentially we can start to measure and prioritise and compare the outcomes of those projects in a more holistic way than we could previously do.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

What Ellen's team is doing at the moment as well is stormwater separation projects because obviously we do not want to be treating stormwater that can run to sea but we need to take the pressure off the sewerage system by separating out stormwater.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am quite interested in the foul sewer extension and the fact we have not done anything since 2004. Would you say that is due to funding or lack of it?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Definitely a lack of funding but also when you look at the priorities and the environmental benefit, surface water separation gives a far better outcome. So it brings less rain water into the sewerage network giving us more capacity in St. Helier and meaning that in times of flood and storm we have less issues in terms of pollution. So we have prioritised and focused on foul sewer and surface water separation and foul sewer extensions have got to that point where there is a huge law of diminishing returns because the major areas have been done. There is still pockets which we would love to attack, but if you look at the value for money and the environmental benefit of that relative to the surface water separation scheme, the surface water separation schemes and general maintenance schemes of the existing network took priority.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So, in effect, to put the remaining 9 per cent on the Island would not overtax either the present sewage plant or the new plant that has been ...?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, it would not because the sewage comes to us anyway. It just comes via the tanker. There is a small element which is a package plant that does not come to us, but the majority of it comes anyway. So it would be better on a connected system for everybody, but there is a point of - and the Minister alluded to it - the value and the cost of it when it goes beyond public benefit.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So in terms of surface water work and to bring the rest of the Island on to separate surface water, what sort of numbers are we talking about in a percentage? Do you have an idea of how much more work you need to do to get the rest of the Island on surface water separation?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There are lots of different schemes certainly within town and the east of the Island, so we are looking at trying to do a foul and surface water separation scheme every year. But there are probably at least 15 big schemes in town to be able to take that forward and with the issues that you have with

traffic and all the other things with road closures, I do not think there are any easy projects now. Again, we are looking at doing some not in 2020 but in 2021, which is more on the east side of the Island, and again when we have an awful lot of rainfall and such like that and our systems get beat, that is when it would be really helpful to have those surface water separation schemes in play. So, again, we are looking at certainly rolling them forward in 2021. We have some small schemes for next year.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Just to add to that, this combined system was a Victorian solution which was brilliant, but that solution environmentally does not really hold muster now. So the main areas where surface water ... where combined systems are still in play are the older parts of Jersey and where the development was, so it is the southeast corner and predominantly St. Helier . But the engineering challenge is significant because the sewers are very deep, they are in very congested, built-up areas and the deeper you go the more services you have to go through to get there and it becomes a big engineering challenge. We did a lot of work round Phillips Street and a significant diversion there, and that then opens up a huge amount of St. Helier which we are going to connect on to a separate system.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Is that complete now? Sorry, is that complete, that Phillips Street, the shaft?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Phillips Street shaft is complete. The surface water separation and the bypass around the Ann Court site is all complete, and then ... but there is another scheme behind that to then start taking more areas of St. Helier into a separate system.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You have just done the sewerage around the Five Oaks roundabout. Is that A-OK? I see it is still ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is I think cosmetic work to be done. I think the actual drain itself is all fixed and ready to go, yes. That is fully operational but it is just cosmetic work on the top.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That leads me on nicely to roads. Going back earlier this month, you suggested that a sum of £6.56 million per annum over a period of 9 years is required to reduce the present resurfacing backlog. Now, clearly, what we have just been talking about affects the road significantly. I just wonder how you incorporate that in your overall plan of resurfacing vis-à-vis the drainage.

Director of Transport:

It is an interesting challenge of co-ordination because ... and it falls this way because these are the busiest roads, these are the most built-up areas. Some of the greatest demand, of course, for road strengthening and resurfacing is on the ring road.

[14:45]

A lot of the strategic sewer systems also are on the ring road or have important connections in the ring road. So we co-ordinate a huge amount of our street work activity every year, roadworks, close to 5,000 a year if I recall correctly. So it goes into that forward programme. We speak to all the utility companies and we have it planned over. But what that means is the strengthening of the ring road will be done in shorter sections in order to allow the traffic management to be ... to really prevent congestion, which will impact on the quality of people's lives and also affects commerce. So the game is about playing the long game, basically, and to work to always minimise the disruption to the general public and to commerce.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The drainage team and the roads resurfacing team work really closely together so when the highways are doing their plan for what they want to do over the next 5 years, effectively the drainage team come in before and do that work.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, I am pleased to hear that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have the street works law as well. I mean, in the past the utility companies had a perfect right to tear up roads wherever they wished. That is not the same now. They have to co-ordinate through the department, unless it is a strict emergency with obviously a water mains gone or something. They are co-ordinated through the department, which is why people find it quite odd. They might be travelling around Rouge Bouillon, a perfect piece of road, and suddenly it stops and then it is the old road there for about 100 yards and then it may be another new piece of road. But obviously the team have information that there are planned works on that particular section with water or telecoms or somebody who needs to go in there to do some urgent work, so obviously they wait until that work is done and then finish that piece off.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It clearly is relatively early days with the street works and the fence law. Is it working?

Director of Transport:

It seems to be, yes. We are certainly managing to visit more sites to check the signing, lighting and guarding in terms of the safety of the general public and we have been satisfied with the quality of workmanship that we are seeing as well. So yes, we think it is a success.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There is a risk with over-regulation that all it does is delay the projects. Has there been any feedback from that point of view?

Director of Transport:

No, I do not believe so. I think we keep the public interest at our heart, so if you look at how the projects are managed, there are a large number of them which are basically joint openings where more than one utility operates in the same road closure. The majority of works are also carried out off-peak, so you see much less impact on the peak-hour travel these days than you would have done with all the amount of activity that is going on. The truth is a lot of the utility apparatus was laid some time back and because of that it all needs to be replaced at the same time. Again, it always tends to be along those strategic routes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is more a flow of information both ways now, which is very productive, that utility companies inform the department that they may need the year after next or whatever timeframe it is to go into a certain area and the team inform the utility companies: "We are planning to resurface this particular road." So it is pretty well co-ordinated.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There has always been the cry that the road resurfacing programme was underfunded. Do you consider that £6.56 million per annum is sufficient?

Director of Transport:

Well, there is a difference between what is sufficient and what is deliverable. I think the £6.5 million is a good amount to be able to get ourselves back on to a steady footing and to get to a position where the road conditions are getting no worse. So we will be slowing the decline and then we will get to a sustainable position so we are not handing on a debt to our grandchildren. I think if we were given more money than that I think, to be honest with you, we would struggle to get it on to the road given all the other activities that are going on on the roads at the same time. You would not want to bring the Island to a standstill.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also a lot of work is done in off-peak hours so as not to disrupt the traffic, as the Constable of St. Saviour knows in Longueville Road and Rue Saint-Thomas. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So in terms of getting to a level playing field, I think we have some 6.56 over a period of 9 years. Are you anticipating this level playing field at the end of that period or at what stage would you get to that?

Director of Transport:

At the end of the 9 years we envisage we will get to a position where the road network, in terms of its condition, the rate of decline is matched by the rate of renewal, so you are in a steady state then. Then there is a question of how much people want to invest in it. What is an acceptable standard of road? You can decide that we want to spend more money on it and we want to have no defects at all or in the past the States have really elected to let it decline and put other things ahead of it. But to be in a steady state is the ideal position because then you are not handing on a backlog to other people and you are not wasting money on reactive repairs like fixing potholes, which do nothing to preserve the structure of the road.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving on to lights, what is the approach with regard to maintaining street lighting?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Street lights get replaced every ... they have a 25-year life when we are looking at street lights, and I think we have about 3,000 street lights within the Island. We have effectively a replacement programme, so we replace street lights every year. We have a contract at the moment as well to do the maintenance of street lights.

Director of Transport:

Yes, so we have a framework contract with the J.E.C. (Jersey Electricity Company) for primarily the luminaires but there is amounts in there for the replacement of the posts as well. So periodically there are inspections of the luminaires and at that point when they go and look at a column, they will look at the condition of the column. We are also moving to create a more structured condition model of all the street lights in the Island in a similar way as we manage the road network. So we will be able to look at that and make predictions going forward rather than the one at the moment which is slightly more ad hoc than we would like. It is as the luminaires fail we tend to do the inspections of the columns themselves.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It appears to several because we have had reports about the condition or apparent condition of the stand, the lamp standards, which are pretty poor. It may be just a paint issue, but I just wondered if you were addressing that or how that occurred.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This Government Plan would help us address that because we are going to have more money and we have set aside more money for doing the street lights as well. So, again, we are going to be hoping to replace more each year, which we have not had the money to be able to do that, I think, historically and that is probably why some of them have fallen into disrepair.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Sorry, are you replacing them with concrete pillars or ...?

Director of Transport:

No, no, we generally elect to use steel columns.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

But clearly there has been a paint issue, I would imagine. Is that the case? I mean, they can look pretty awful.

Director of Transport:

So when funding has been lower in the past there has been various attempts to extend the life of the street lighting and part of those attempts has been to paint them. What we truly rely upon is the galvanised coating because the galvanised coating is what prevents the rust. The paint when you see it is flaking off has been ... you know, it was just an attempt to extend that, but we think within the life of the next Government Plan we will get more on top of that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, aesthetically it is not good.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, so the replacements are either hot dip galvanised or stainless steel is the preferred point because of that longevity. As you say, once they start degrading and then you start painting them, you are delaying the end but it does not look very pretty.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Would you agree that the painting was probably a failure?

Director of Transport:

Well, I mean, they are there now, are they not? Yes, that is the truth.

The Minister for Infrastructure: It has extended the life so ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is about budget and least worst options in those situations, unfortunately.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Are they L.E.D. (light-emitting diode) which you are replacing them with?

Director of Transport:

Yes. I cannot vouch that every luminaire is L.E.D. now but there is a replacement programme ongoing where every time we maintain or change the head, which is where the light is, it is replaced with an L.E.D. light.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is done more street by street than independently, but if there is a problem, if a street light happens to be out, every street lamp on the Island has a serial number on the side in large letters. So if it has not been picked up by J.E.C. then members of the public can ring J.E.C.'s switchboard and report it as a fault and they will come the following day, if not the same day, and repair it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good. Sea defences. We have an indicative capital allocation of £1.36 million for sea defences. Does that align with the shoreline management plan? It does not seem enough.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No. This question was asked last night. If you are happy, Minister, I will take this. The horizon on the work is beyond this Government Plan. That is our standard preventative maintenance programme of basically making sure that the sea defences we have stay fit for purpose. But the studies are showing that over a long period of time that is going to be an enormous number without doubt, but that is in the next 10, 20, 30 years. So we are in a manage and monitor situation for the next decade and we will be looking at small enhancements. An example would be the Beaumont one we have just done and we will be doing things like that, but there will be a point where - and it is about monitoring - we have to make a significant investment to protect the Island. That will be based on the actual data that we are getting now. Our modelling is being upgraded and the work is being undertaken to give us the best data to predict.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Because it is low lying, St. Aubin and all that area, because you have big cliffs on the other side of the Island. Are you going to have enough to protect that part of the world? Because we are building on Goose Green Marsh again and the word itself, being a marsh, is going to ... they do have problems and then they also have the sea problem. So what have you got up your sleeve to combat that?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, there are 2 parts to that and I think they are both very valid. One is rainfall and the propensity of more severe storms that we are seeing now and the effect of them. We have a flood management plan and we have put quite a bit of mitigation in that area. We have built a pumping station about 8 years ago, which is a pumping station which is designed to lift the flood water over the tide at high tide in the car park there, which has been used on a frequent basis and has been very successful. So we are monitoring it from a catchment area perspective, but from a sea defence, sea level rise area, that is another iteration. The scale of spend on sea defences will over the long term be enormous.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just the work at Beaumont we know is successful. I cannot remember what that cost, but where is the next area that could receive that sort of treatment to good effect, do you think?

Director of Transport:

So the next area to complete is phase 3 of Beaumont and so that would extend where we have completed the wave return wall in front of what was the old stationhouse almost. Further to the east is an upstand in the wall, which I believe was for the ... it was a defence which the train could hide behind or something of that measure, but basically it is to complete that wave wall along that section there. So that is the next part of the programme. Then there are some measures like piling the toes in other areas of the beach to protect the bottom of the wharf from scour. Then there is the shoreline management plan which is out to consultation at the moment. Within that, it has different epochs that we look into over the next 100 years as to the type of interventions that will be required, and they basically include do nothing, and that is the type of thing that you would do on the north coast of the Island; there is advanced e-line, where you might want to think about moving the sea wall forward in areas; and then there is adaptive management. The adaptive management is putting on wave return walls or walls further back to stop the waves flooding inland. So that shoreline management plan will come out with recommendations, which will then go into the future Government Plans for funding along with the cost-benefits.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So realistically the add-on on top of the walls would not be incorporated in the £1.36 million?

Director of Transport:

No, no, no, that is for the work now. That will be the subject of later bids.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is such an excellent project because obviously the wall is going to be raised from Beaumont to Le Perquage and Le Perquage is where the big pumping station is that pumps the water over the wall at high tide. It is some phenomenal rate and it is twin pumps, so it is about 10,000 litres a second or something. These are really high-powered pumps and they do a fantastic job. But one of the problems we have now is with climate change, whether people accept it or not, the warmer air can hold more moisture. So we are going to get, as John said, incidents of flash flooding. You just have to look at what is happening in Spain at the moment, which is pretty devastating. But also at Beaumont the team have put in storm gates where we used to have the one-tonne sandbags. They are properly manufactured steel storm doors that can be closed when high tides or overtopping is expected. But the extension on the wall is not just the height it goes up. There is a little curve on the top because the wall was built to defend against advancing tanks. But with the adaptions the team have put on and the contractors, it throws the waves back out to sea.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, it is very effective.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So it does stop this overtopping of waves that come to it.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can I take us to St. Ouen and the railings at St. Ouen 's Bay, which are in I consider fairly poor condition? I did ask a question in the States some time ago but there was a bit of uncertainty as to when they might be replaced and what they might be replaced in and when. Have you had any further thoughts on that?

[15:00]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is quite a stretch. It is in the programme somewhere.

Director of Transport:

I could not give you a specific answer on it but you are right, the railings at St. Ouen are virtually sacrificial because you could spend a lot of money putting the highest quality stainless steel down there in the knowledge that they are going to get destroyed in any event by the power of the next storm and the waves. So there are 2 things that are going on down there. One is the rate of corrosion and they are replaced periodically. The other part is how often they get destroyed in any event because of the forces that they are taking. So there is a balance there. The set of rails that are in now, I do not know if you recall when they first went in. I was not involved then, but they were not standard galvanised. They were a level above that. I think they have given good service. They are not at the point of failure yet but there will be a replacement programme for that within the sea defence model.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As a mariner, you would know the beating that these railings get.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, I just wonder if the price of stainless these days is such that probably it is not as great as it was. Maybe I am wrong.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think we should look at it. I think you are absolutely right. The robustness ... the stainless tends to be thinner. The key clamp galvanised is a very robust, slightly industrial feel to it, which is not as aesthetic as stainless, but I think it is something we should be considering.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Maybe rusty things can be considered aesthetic these days and maybe we cultivate that. [Laughter]

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is the patina.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I do not believe in that but ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going to the sewage treatment works which we have been alluding to, the business case suggests that £11.85 million is still required to enable the full completion of the project. Are you confident that this level of funding is going to be sufficient to deal with that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Before I hand over to Ellen, who is the expert, we do have an open day Saturday after next for the new sewage treatment works. So we hope you will both come down and have a look and have a guided tour. The one we have at the moment has been in over 70 years and provided sterling service, but now it is obviously time for an upgrade. It is in its final stages. The ground opening will be in 2022 but, as I say, we are having an open day Saturday after next and we are encouraging people to come down and have a look, and also people who are interested in engineering and possibly a future career in engineering.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good. So what sort of percentage of the way through the project are we at the moment?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The new sewage treatment work is meant to be completed in 2022. At the moment we are working on the tanker import facilities and doing the works for the primary settlement tanks and the inlet work, so getting a lot of the civil works and the civil structures in place. We hopefully will continue with that into 2021. So far the project working has been really good, working well. Better touch some wood before anything goes on. We do not expect to require any additional resources other than the £11.85 million, which will get us up to the £79 million. The reason for the increase was for the covers for the primary settlement tanks, which was approved within the States to deal with the odour issue, so that was some of the increased costs. There was originally things like the clinical waste incinerator which is also being funded from this vote. That is the reason why it is so ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Are you confident that the covers on the tanks will remove any odours, odour potential, from around the First Tower area? Is that what ...?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, that is not what we said. [Laughter]

The Minister for Infrastructure: I think it will reduce substantially.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It was quite a debate if you recall. I think putting the covers on the primary tanks will solve any problems of odour from the sewage treatment works. The First Tower issues we are currently ... we have a monitoring system in place and we are looking at and analysing that data in terms of where the smells are emanating from. It is quite complex. It does not sound complex but it is because we have quite a wide diurnal flow on the sewage treatment works and through the sewerage network and complexity in terms of where smells start because of sea water ingress and hydrogen sulphide generation through the outer areas of the network. But it will not do us any harm. It will be better. The new sewage works will be better than the old one. The new anaerobic digestion plant we have was far better than the old one.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

One would have thought so because, you know, things have moved on.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: That is why we are doing it, absolutely.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

One would think now if you put a sewage works in, it should be working at least 75 to 80 per cent better than what was put in before.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Absolutely, but ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Otherwise there is no point and you are wasting your money if you are going to end up with the same thing again.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Correct, yes. So it is a fantastic step forwards. What we are not going to do ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour : If it works.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: It will work.

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is tried and tested technology. The Connétable of St. Saviour : Is it? Right.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There were people, you will remember, at the time who insisted we use a different system, which we managed to fight them off. But we know that on day one when we push the green button we know that everything is going to work perfectly. It is tried and tested technology.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : When is day one, do we know?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

2022. Do we have more of an accurate ...? [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Because there is a change of Government in 2022.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, the complexity with this project is to complete the whole project you have to knock down some of the existing sewage treatment works and to build one of the final tanks and some of the storm facilities. So there will be a ... the works will start working before that end so that we can then decommission the old works and then we can complete the build.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Will there be a phased changeover? That must be quite a challenge.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We will have to run 2 parallel works and there is a complexity around the biology of the sewage treatment works and how you bring the new one in, which is quite exciting for me but not for anybody else. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The residents of the First Tower area are not going to be happy when they see we have spent £79 million and it still smells. You spoke of sea water penetration. Is there any work being done on that?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we have done loads of work on that and we will continue to do so. But on a spring tide, we still have problems in some areas and it is again about getting ahead of the curve on the planned preventative maintenance. A few years ago we found some sewers in beaches with holes in the sewers and the gravity systems pushing sea water into the network. So our job is to look for these and find them. I think there was quite a lot around St. Aubin at the time.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Around First Tower we have a capital project to improve the pumping stations there, and again we are going to be putting in odour mitigation new technologies in there, which again will have a big impact. Within the drainage infrastructure rolling vote there is money there again for sea water ingress and such like.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good, right. You have had initial difficulties with the contractor at the sewage plant. Is the present contractor working as wished?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, very good. It has been quite a hard start in that the clinical waste incinerator was in the middle and still operational. We had to build a new one, because it got to the end of its life, at La Collette and get that commissioned and out the way. So there was a steady start, shall we say, and now it is working very well and the contractor relationships are very good.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Good.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

This seems to be working very well for our present population. As we do not have an immigration policy and we do not seem to have one in the pipeline, what you are doing now, will that be able to cope with a bigger influx of people being as we have no control over who comes and who does not? Have you allowed for that in what you are putting together?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. I do not want to get too sewage-y, because I could do, but you cannot stop ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, well, we are going to be, are we not?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, exactly.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

If we are going to have all these people and everything coming through.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You cannot stockpile it, so you have to have provision to treat it there and then. So what we have done is taken lessons learned from the ... you know, the works that we originally have extended in the old works was built I think in 1952 or 1953 with a population equivalent of about 35,000 people. We have managed to upscale that to just cope with the population of Jersey as it stands. So what we have done is looked at how can we design a sewage works which is effective now and then how can we make it so it can be expanded at a later date or contracted at a later date. Those 2 elements are very difficult with sewage treatment because it is a biological process. You cannot just make it too big because you have to allow the process to work. So we have made sure that it has enough resilience and is future proof so that when needed you can then expand it. The other great benefit we have is because we built it alongside the old works, then we have provision of the old site to then extend if there is something beyond in 25 years, 30 years, 40 years' time beyond what we can imagine now in terms of either standard or population it has to deal with.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Does your department have any input in terms of planning? Clearly, you get applications coming in from all parts of the Island where sewerage networks may be better than others. I appreciate you have officers dealing with that, but how much influence, shall we say, do they have if you think the sewerage network is not that good or needs enlarging or is restricted? Does the comment from the officers have much effect to the Planning Department?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Very much so, yes. We are a statutory consultee with any planning application and there is challenges in some areas where we have quite small pumping stations and manholes and areas where sewerage can be delivered through a private pumping station. Then we have to either look at how they can mitigate that by pumping at different times or how we can then expand our system to deal with it or we just say: "No, there is not the capacity at the moment." Those are the subtleties we need to consider. If someone wants to try and build a big estate in a very remote part of the Island, that will be one of the issues we will face. The majority of developments have been in St. Helier and the capacity here, because of the surface water separation, has not been a problem.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :'

Bonne Nuit for many years was an issue. Is that surmounted now? [Laughter]

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think Bonne Nuit was a great pilot test which I think has proved that I would rather have a different solution in the future, which would be to pump up the hill and to connect to our mains system.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Can I just add to the previous conversation regarding expansion and the population? The team are very, very experienced engineers and they have to handle whatever we throw at them, metaphorically speaking. But it is up to us to sort out the immigration, the migration, of the Island.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Oh, I appreciate that, but if they are already working and they are getting this ready for 2022 and beyond, I needed for my own sake to know that ... because, as I say, we do not have an immigration policy.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Not yet.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We do not have an immigration policy and I would like to think that everything we are going through now would be able to accommodate rather than somebody sitting here in 2 years' time from the new Government saying: "What is happening?" and we are all back to square one and yet we have spent all this money. I would like you to be aware that there is no - I am sure you are - immigration policy so you have to be ready for the influx that is going to happen.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It would be possible to expand it. We were at a meeting last night at the R.J.A.&H.S. (Royal Jersey Agricultural and Horticultural Society) and we were asked a similar question there. I said I was elected in 2005 and I went on radio later that year with a very senior Senator. It was talkback and I said: "I can foresee a time when this Island will have 95,000 people." I was told not to be so stupid, that we are never going to get there, and look where we are now. This is where we are, but we have to deal with it. Obviously, we do have an ageing population which has to be paid for, but there has to be ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I am sorry, I am lost now. What does the ageing population have to do with the drains?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, the ageing population, the idea was more younger people need to come in to pay taxes to pay for the older population. That was the idea originally, but we have to draw a line somewhere.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Well, we look forward, Minister, to the Council of Ministers coming up with the immigration policy shortly.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Indeed.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Ellen, you alluded to the rolling vote. We noted that £29 million of the previous funding for the sewage plant had come from the rolling infrastructure vote, which in fact led to a maintenance backlog, it appears, on the sewerage and road networks and coastal defence assets. Can you explain why that happened?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It was to do with the funding, I think, of the first Medium-Term Financial Plan. So when we were looking at funding the sewage treatment works, the treasury officers agreed that there would be some capital monies would be made available. Some monies would be made available from the special funds and the remaining amount would be funded from the infrastructure vote. Back when we were looking at the Medium-Term Financial Plan, the original allocation I think was for something like £56 million because we were going to delay certain aspects. That did not include the clinical waste incinerator but it included some of the final settlement tanks being built later.

[15:15]

Again, as we were going through all the studies and stuff for the new sewage treatment works, it was better financially to be able to build it all at the same time when you get one contractor in. Again, we have been working with the treasury trying to get the resources. Because of the impact that that had on our infrastructure vote and has meant that we have not been able to do the road resurfacing and some of the drainage projects, we made a bid as part of this Government Plan to get it funded separately so we could get some more money back into our infrastructure and spend it as we have alluded to before.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Now I am going to take you on to the vehicle testing centre, another major project. There was a request on page 148 of R.91 for £250,000 for the initial capital funding required for constructing the new testing centre. In the case that the options appraisal process reaches a conclusion that the Government does not need to build a new test facility, would this request for funding fall away?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Then it also suggests that funding is to address a likely scenario that a test centre will be required. Do you know if it is a likely scenario at this stage or are you just waiting for the options appraisal to be concluded?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

What is difficult is this process sets the budget for 4 years and we do not know what the best way to organise this is going to be. That is why we are doing the review and we are going to work that out. But this was the worst-case scenario in terms of capital bids, so we put a capital bid in to make sure that it was in place. If it is not needed, we will not do it, but if it was the other way around and we had not put a bid in we would have been really struggling to get that back into the programme. There may be another solution that does not require this investment, but we do not have enough information about the project to go beyond that at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What stage are we at with the options appraisal? Have we looked at any of that?

Director of Transport:

I am not directly involved in that anymore under the structure, but I keep in close contact with D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards). My understanding is there was an initial expressions of interest document to undertake the options appraisal. The returns from that were not what the department was looking for, so it has gone out through the tender process again. There has been some more market intelligence.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That would be through the tender portal?

Director of Transport:

The portal for expressions of interest. Now, this is not for people to undertake the testing work, this is for people to look at the different business models and to evaluate the different business models. My understanding is that tender is either out at the moment or close to closing, so there would be

the returns, then someone will be appointed to undertake that work, to develop the business cases for it and to look at what would provide the best value for the citizens of Jersey. Then at the completion of that it will come to Scrutiny, because that was a requirement at the time, and then there will be a tender to undertake the work or a method of licensing people to undertake the work, depending on which of the business models is chosen.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It was raised at the quarterly hearing, but I had forgotten that it is not under Tristan's domain. Now it is under Andy Scate's portfolio, so apologies.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of the process we have been through - clearly the whole thing was quite controversial, signing up to the Vienna Convention - do you think we have probably put the cart before the horse a little bit and that without knowing, quite candidly, what was involved down the line, were we perhaps rushed into it by ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We had to sign pretty much as soon as we could after the U.K. signed, because anybody ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I appreciate that side of it. In an ideal world perhaps we would have put all this work in beforehand, yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

But previous to that, obviously the U.K. has had vehicle testing since the 1960s and any vehicle travelling abroad has had G.B. (Great Britain) plates on it. It was never stopped; it was assumed that the vehicle was okay. But obviously when the U.K. signed up to the Vienna Convention, it was pretty clear that we had not, so it was recommended that we sign up asap to have a continuation of the service that we have.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I understand that, but the provision of a testing centre is quite a significant structure.

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

If Government are to do it, has any further discussion taken place with the motor industry anywhere?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we are currently in dialogue with the motor industry. I think the point of timing is interesting in that sometimes an external driver like that can get the owner to do the right thing. If you look at the outcomes we have already got from testing of vehicles above 3.5 tonnes and for mopeds, I think it has been a significant change and a real benefit to the Island, both environmentally and in terms of safety as well. I think there is a benefit to doing this and it just brings the Island's vehicles up to a better state than perhaps we have seen. The majority of people are on grade B vehicles and pass rates are very good, but the ones we have stopped or the ones that have stopped operating I think has been a great benefit.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I gather minibuses have not come out very well.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think 10 or 11 have been rejected. I am not sure how many have had to be retested once any fault has been ... we need to get back to you on that.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: The problem is they do not do any miles and then they ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, they just sit there half the time.

Director of Transport:

But more widely than that, given the circumstances that Brexit seems to be in now, I think that it is useful for both commerce and for individuals to have surety that they have got a right to circulate in Europe going forward. That was not entirely clear beforehand. We have had problems in the past in continental Europe, particularly with commercial goods, and now we have got this in place there is no reason to have those problems again in the future.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Have you been able to find a local company to do this testing?

Director of Transport:

That is what we will find out in the next stage.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There are some that are very interested.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I know, but last time we had a meeting you said that it also was going to go to the U.K.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, this was the appraisal, not for the testing.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, I know that, but are you any nearer to finding a local company?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We are currently out looking and ideally it would be local as a default, if possible.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So you are confident the level of funding that is in place for this is sufficient, given the unknowns involved? Once again, I guess it is so that you can get a capital bid in at this stage here.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: That is right. It is just getting the bid in the programme.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There are several options. Obviously it can be done locally or we could do it ourselves. There is always that option.

Director of Transport:

I think one of the important things of course with the Government Plan is the funding is only agreed - if I am right, John - for the following year. The other years are subject to ratifications of the ...

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This particular one is classed as one of the major projects, so the whole funding is agreed. There is a cash flow which is also agreed, which is the initial £250,000, and then it ramps up for the next 2 years and tails off at the end. But at any point in time, that can still be ... if you were not going ahead with the project in that way, if it was being delivered by a third party rather than the States building the test centre, then you would just relinquish that and release it back into the programme. You are not tying up that money if you do not need it, but it does give you the certainty at the start of the project, with the major projects, that you can continue up to that overall sum on the basis of the cash flow that has been identified. That is the major change in this area for capital now, that those major projects you can show the cash flow over the period, but make better use of the capital funding within the overall programme, as opposed to the old finance law, where you had the full amount of the funding upfront before you could start tendering. That has changed in this plan now.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going to infrastructure pre-feasibility funding, can you let us have some breakdown of precisely what the £500,000 requested for a pre-feasibility study will cover and how it has been calculated?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I was going to say the pre-feasibility sum within the Government Plan is not one that the Minister for Infrastructure has responsibility for, so again, this is something which is out there. It is departments, Ministers, can bid in for funding. The initial projects are identified in italics in the Government Plan, so this is that the Minister for Treasury and Resources would make a decision on what projects are funded from that pre-feasibility area. The particular one on the infrastructure fund is not about infrastructure in its sense like the infrastructure rolling vote, where it is spending money on infrastructure. This particular £500,000 is in relation to setting up an infrastructure fund which can seek investment from other funds, either internal to the States or external parties to the States, to then invest in the Island's infrastructure. I understand that this particular sort of allocation of funding is more about looking at the setting up of such a fund, how it would operate, who could be interested in investing with it, but it is not a G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment) Minister for Infrastructure here.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is not a sinking fund, depreciation fund in any shape or form though, is it?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It has not been defined what exactly it will be, but there have been a few options.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There is some information in the Government Plan. I am sorry, I do not have a copy with me, but the actual page in it is just before the capital section, which I think is about page 148, 149. It talks a little bit about that infrastructure fund. I do not have the page with me, but there is a bit of ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, 146.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so there is a little bit of information in there, so the idea is that over the course of 2020 this money would be then used to potentially look at how such a fund could be established and then further proposals would be brought back as part of the next Government Plan, I believe, in order to set that up, the remit of the fund and how it would receive investment and pay back returns from those investments, because ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is remarkably sensible and overdue, it seems to me, otherwise we end up having to fight for a capital vote for asset replacement as and when, which we know is going to come anyway.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, the rolling capital programme generally keeps things ticking along at the same standard. If you want to do fundamental changes, you need a major capital project investment strategy, so the likes of Fort Regent. Public realm improvements and major schemes need a different mechanism for developing that investment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Jersey car parking, can you provide more information on what works will be undertaken in the programme of works specified in 218 of R.19? It is the back page, virtually.

Director of Transport:

In terms of preserving our car park assets, particularly the multi-storeyed car parks, there is basically a 10-year cycle of work, so every 10 years the car parks require to have major concrete renovation/degradation works undertaken. There is a cycle of every 10 years a car park has its cathodic protection replaced, which stops the reinforcement from rusting, and then areas of the concrete which may have something like A.S.R. (alkali–silica reaction), concrete cancer, are removed and replaced with the repair material. Then the whole thing is covered with protective coatings. Running in parallel to that is another 10-year cycle, which is minor maintenance, so basically you do your major maintenance and then 5 years later you go in and you replace hand railings, tiles, you remark the car park, the lighting and those type of things that require ongoing maintenance. That is basically what that reflects, so within there ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose what has caught our eye is we have got 553 in 2020, £22 million, and then in 2022 it leaps up. I just ...

Director of Transport:

Yes, so what you have got in there is in 2020 we need to replace the lifts in Patriotic Street, so that is the funding in there for replacement of the lifts in Patriotic Street. Then in 2021 we have to reline Sand Street car park, so it is remarking the road markings, effectively, and tidying those up. Then in ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : You have done that, have you not?

Director of Transport: That is a few years ago now.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: Relining is a 5-year cycle.

Director of Transport: It is a 5-year cycle.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: So it is almost coming up.

Director of Transport:

So you get scrubbing by the tyres. This is not replacing all of the floor markings, this is just the ...

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: The parking bay markers.

Director of Transport:

... parking bays and things that get worn out, basically. So when you do your concrete degradation works, you protect the car park with a material called Triflex. That lasts for 10 years, but then you have also got sacrificial markings that will wear out with the scrub of tyres and so that is that, basically. Then in 2022 there is money put aside against the Patriotic Street major maintenance works, so there is £3 million against that, and then in 2023 ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just break that down, so major works, that is putting down ... what, going back to steel core almost, is it?

[15:30]

Director of Transport:

No, you take off the existing protection coatings and then you reapply Triflex, so it is primarily ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Triflex is a ...

Director of Transport:

Triflex is a special ... it is like a membrane which stops chlorine ingress. It is the chlorine which basically allows the steel to rust, so steel does not rust in concrete because it is very alkaline. The chlorine ions basically reduce the alkalinity of the concrete and allow the steel to start to rust.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : For the 2023 ...

Director of Transport:

That is for the condition of survey at Pier Road. Now, within that there is also modernisation.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: £3 million in each of 2022 and 2023 is identified for modernisation works.

Director of Transport:

That is done with conjunction with the Island public realm bid, so the shopper car parks in particular, but all the car parks are effectively gateways into St. Helier and the buildings themselves have an impact on the public realm of St. Helier , how smart and attractive it looks. So some money has been put aside in there to refurbish the look of the car parks, the exteriors, to try to create a more attractive ambience and a gateway which really sort of celebrates St. Helier more. But what the actual measures are remain at this time policy under development, so those proposals are not ready to be presented yet.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So it is £2.3 million. The public are always interested in the width of the parking spaces in Minden Place.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a tricky one. With the car parks, we find they can be modernised and updated. Minden Place was built in a time when we had Minis and Morris Oxfords and the pillars are sort of central to the bays, if you like, some of the bays, so it is difficult to increase the width of the bays without losing an entire car parking space per line. It is not a huge car park, but it is very useful for shopping, for people nipping in and doing shopping. But we are limited by the pillars, the design.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Have you any sort of plans to extend it? Because the arts centre suffers, because a lot of St. Helier parishioners have to park somewhere, so 5.00 p.m. or 6.00 p.m. it is filled up with St. Helier parishioners. If you are visiting the arts centre or going in that end of town, there is literally nowhere for you to park.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

But we still have the car park opposite Peter Street at the moment until that is developed, but ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Ann Court is going to come online with 100 and ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: Thirty-seven.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

... public spaces and a previous Minister insisted that Minden Place would stay.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : He is gone, so ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, I mean before that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Oh, before that.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, insisted that Minden Place would not be demolished and recycled.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Good.

The Minister for Infrastructure: He is still around.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Minden Place is what it is and we are hoping that perhaps cars will get smaller again and Minden Place will become more effective. But it is very popular, is it not?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is in a great place.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is the lifeline for that end of town.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Indeed.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The only thing we could do with that car park, if we had to make any substantial alterations, is to literally demolish it and rebuild because, as I say, we are limited by those pillars. Sorry, I must give way to Tristan.

Director of Transport:

That is right. Generally in the car parks it is 3 parking spaces between pillars. Where we do not have pillars, we have widened the place. At Pier Road, those on the outside of the car parks have all been widened now.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you need work to get that message across to the public, that the Minden Place spaces are small so that they know from the outset that it is going to be tight?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think people realise it after the first visit.

Director of Transport:

I think I would reinforce the point that my Director General made, that we have got Ann Court coming online, and that will obviously be a modern facility and that will be providing what is the modern standard of parking spaces.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have obviously got ongoing, as you have suggested, repainting work in the car parks. It appeared in the Sand Street work, which I think was only earlier this year, that it is an English contractor doing the paintwork. Can we not work on local contractors to perhaps bring them up to the standard whereby they would be able to do this sort of thing?

Director of Transport:

Local contractors have tendered and been considered through the tender process. I cannot advise particularly where we are the moment at this time, but yes, they do have an opportunity and some of those local contractors are trained and competent in protective coatings. It comes down to complying with the financial codes and who offers the best value to the States.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think when it becomes a regular occurrence and we can maintain a level of work, then a local supplier would be far better for everybody. The problem is because it has been a bit peaky, so it is a concentrated piece of work, for them to gear up and to do that work and to get the training and adequate training, because this is quite a specialist activity. I do not know if you recall the smells when this stuff was going on, but there are lots of volatiles within that. It is a case of if we can make it regular and consistent, I think there is a huge opportunity to engage local suppliers and get them trained up to do it, but at the moment we have been doing these on a piecemeal basis. We might be able to review that moving forward.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Back to the Climate Emergency Fund, on page 85 of R.91 it is suggested that £500,000 be spent on policy development for a carbon neutral strategy and S.T.P. (Sustainable Transport Plan). Can you specify how much of that £500,000 will be allocated to the development of the S.T.P. and how we got to that figure?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This bid was done by S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population), their policy team, so we know as much as you, which is what is in the bid.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Which is nothing.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is what is in the bid, unfortunately, because the policy team is now decoupled from G.H.E. We have seconded an officer in to do the S.T.P. The bids came from Tom Walker 's S.P.P.P. team.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That team at the moment is working on preparing or drafting the carbon neutral strategy and the S.T.P., which will be lodged in the States by the end of this year. From my understanding, that £500,000 is required to do almost phase 2 of that kind of work, to do the consultancy work, doing the works with the public and policy development, that resources and money is required for that, to develop those plans even further. I think it is very difficult to understand the split between the S.T.P. and the carbon side because they are so intertwined. Again, a lot of the carbon plan is to do with transport and vice versa, so I think there was a split of the money in that way.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, it was suggested that the costs were based on similar pieces of work and I think we are trying to establish what those pieces of work might be.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is some of the other stuff that the S.P.P.P. team have recently undertaken, I think.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, the energy policy and the work on that.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: Energy will certainly be one and some of the shoreline stuff as well probably.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, shoreline as well.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously it is built on the 2010 S.T.P., which I am sure you remember.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Indeed. I am wondering whether the ... you are suggesting delivery by the end of next year, whether that is realistic.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: End of this year, I believe, and debated early next year.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think it was a political remit in the States Assembly, which was a bit of a shock for us, because that is very ambitious. Constable, you will know exactly how long it takes to do a S.T.P., get it approved through the States and get it consulted on, because it is going to be challenging for the public and for the Island.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is easy to put up a wish list, but the reality is not so easy, is it? Have you done much work to date on the new S.T.P.? Have you embarked on that?

Director of Transport:

Yes. We are engaged in supporting S.P.P.P. in developing the S.T.P. and work is going ahead at pace. There will be a consultation in October, so we are working very hard to ensure that there is an S.T.P. to lodge with the States in December.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It was in response to a question we asked about that. You suggested that £1.55 million is noted as illustrative expenditure and has been decided or identified on the basis of a selection of likely schemes and initiatives that have been identified as "no regrets." What is that? I am trying to sort of understand that.

Director of Transport:

Earlier on in this year we had an exercise with policy people from all different areas, from Health, from Education, and also we had non-government bodies contribute. What we did was something called a policy sprint, where we basically locked ourselves in a room for a week and went through all the options that we could come up with to encourage active travel and sustainable transport. From that came a list of potential projects. The type of things are listed there in the Government Plan, so there is potential improvement to walking and cycling routes, the creation of an active super- highway, which is basically a description of a cycling route across town, and extension to the eastern and western cycle route. They are all things that we know will contribute and we can evidence will contribute to increasing active travel for health benefits and sustainable travel to reduce the Island's carbon footprint. There are some indicative numbers that have been put across against those to get those kicked off and that is that £1.55 million.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : So no regrets means easy wins?

Director of Transport:

No regrets means that it does not really matter what your final strategy is, you will not regret investing in these because they will support it. You do not need the depth of detail. There are potential schemes identified in there and then also within the work that we did for Future St. Helier during the last Government term.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think, as you are fully aware, that these schemes are hard to get. The consultation has got to be really thorough. We have got to get behind them and then the outcomes are very positive, but it is a long journey and there is not an easy transport project that changes people's behaviour in terms of delivering it. Afterwards people celebrate it. When you are delivering it, then it is a very difficult process. There are no easy wins.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The whole carbon neutral strategy is inevitably complex. How will there be joined-up working between Ministers and officers? There seem to be a lot of people involved with it. Have you put any measures in place to ensure there is maximum collaboration between everybody?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously we have got an overlap now with Environment, that we share offices, so I am working with Deputy Young, Minister for the Environment, and likewise the officers are working across both streams here. But it is coming together. Yes, we have got levers that can be put in place to make things work now.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You spoke of your sprint meeting. Were there external stakeholders involved in that?

Director of Transport:

Yes, external stakeholders were involved in that and we tried to get people who had an interest in transport, so we had some representatives from the Chamber of Commerce, for instance, the motor trade. It was a while back now - it was in February - so I am trying to recall all the different people, but ...

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: People with disabilities.

Director of Transport:

Yes, that was one, was it not? So that was an illustration of how you can work together to bring people in who are new to the subject and can bring fresh ideas and a fresh view to it, which was very useful. Then in terms of the work we are working doing now, we have got people who are seconded into S.P.P.P. to help with the development and we are also making available our framework contracts with consultants, who are specialists in transport, to also produce pieces of work that will feed into that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Can you explain why the Minister for Environment is the lead Minister for the assessment of public infrastructure and resources and not you? I am just trying to understand that. Why is there not a joint Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think that was just an umbrella thing.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It feeds directly into the Island Plan work, so this is about assessing the capacity of the Island's infrastructure, given the plans within the Island Plan, so it is a: "Where are we now? What can it cope with?" type piece of work.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, going back to our discussion about drains.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Obviously I will be presenting the S.T.P.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Sorry, you are going to present ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: The S.T.P. I will be, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, so that is going back to what you were saying earlier on, that ties up with that, so ...

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so it is those 2 Ministers and the actual delivery of that piece of work is through S.P.P.P. as well, so it feeds into that policy group rather than a ...

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Is there going to be an external partner involved with that delivery, do you know?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think they are internal officers we are using. I believe there is one external consultant in that.

Director of Transport:

Yes, there are people who specialise in that type of work and they look at cities and they try to calculate and put numbers against what the carrying capacity of the infrastructure is, be it the roads or the drains, electricity, all the other things that you need to support a society, so we would likely find an external partner who would work with us to create that model for the Island.

[15:45]

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So that external partner would come from the U.K.?

Director of Transport:

It can come from anywhere. I do not know because it is not my particular area, but there are people that work around the world doing this type of thing, looking at cities and power generation, waste disposal, all those things that you have got to look at to inform your policy.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think they will tell you anything you do not know already? I know there is a sort of process always to have more information, but I would have thought generally you have probably got most of it.

Director of Transport:

I think that we probably hold the information. It is the process by which you distil that information and then make it into a comparable number, which is the interesting thing, which is where you probably need the specialist skills.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so it is about benchmarking, understanding what other people do, learning from best practice from other areas, but not being completely dominated by that. It is a partnership with an external person who is potentially verifying the information we have and providing best practice and innovation to us. Because we do not know everything and we never will and we have to learn from other places, but also making sure that we do not lose sight of the fact that we do know our Island very well and we know what it can cope with on a tactical level. So it is about not chucking it all over the hedge for somebody to make those decisions, then we can blame them; it is about how we work together with specialists to give us that information.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am conscious that Government House gets a significant battering from the public in terms of wear and tear. You suggested that you have not had much involvement with this project, but your department through Property Holdings receives the funding which has been requested. Is that the way it works?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. The Chief of Staff does an assessment to coincide with the handover at the interregnum of the Lieutenant Governor as effectively a condition of survey that is done in partnership with members of the maintenance team. They assess what needs to be replaced or reviewed. There is an assumption that the carpets and paintwork have a life. When that life is expended the next interregnum is the point at which it is chosen to do the works. So there is a complex history of Government House and the relationship between the Lieutenant Governor and the staff and the maintenance team, but we do have a responsibility for it. But in terms of the selection of the colour of the carpets and the finer details of the aesthetics, that is very much kept within the Lieutenant Governor staff. We advise in terms of the big ticket items on how to procure the work and how to make sure that it is done within the correct rules and regulations. So we do not choose the colour but make sure that the paint that is chosen meets the remit.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of what was before us, there seemed to be a requirement for 3 quotes which have been undertaken. Is it 3 quotes for the different elements of each work or is a tender invited for all of it?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is 3 quotes for various different pieces of the work to make sure that the best value is achieved. They are very mindful of providing value. So, as I say, they are focused on making sure that there is nothing extravagant that goes on there.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is quite a bit of wear and tear, as you can imagine, with various people coming through on a regular basis. So the carpets are more or less replaced on a 15-year basis and paintwork is done on a 10-year basis.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is routine maintenance so there is no improvement or attributes. I was just thinking about your rates, Connétable . [Laughter]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The building was given to the States in 1947 on the condition that it is maintained.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Right. Could you perhaps advise whether the action in the Government Plan to produce a shoreline management plan requires any funding or if this funding has already been agreed? If the funding has already been agreed, what, if any, additional funding will this incur for the department?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I do not think any funding has been agreed at this stage. Again, within the infrastructure rolling vote under the sea defences there is £150,000 for us to start trying to cost up some of that work and trying to understand that impact. I think we will be pulling together a funding bid for the shoreline management plan and that will come in future Government Plans.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of the Government developing this action within the Government Plan, once again, will you bring in external stakeholders for that? Who was the company that you used to use regularly for the shoreline?

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: The climate survey stuff for the sea defences?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The shoreline management plan here is some work that SP3 is doing at the moment, so the actual production of it is due towards the end of this year.

Group Director, Operations and Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It will be part of the Island Plan if it gets adopted by that. What we have to do is cost out that impact of the climate on the infrastructure and sea defences.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

One of the key elements is a hydrodynamic model. It is verifying the model and making sure the model stays up to date, as well as the specialist consultancy involvement that we will need to understand exactly what is happening.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving into St. Helier proper, enhancing the St. Helier urban environment, which really comes under actions for both vibrant economy and to protect the environment strategic priorities, can you advise whether the action in the Government Plan to enhance the St. Helier urban environment requires any agreed funding or has this already been agreed? If it has been agreed, what, if any, additional resource or manpower was incurred by the department?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Can you just reference the number?

Director of Transport:

This is on page 148 of the Government Plan.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There is funding available through receipts from S.O.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company).

Director of Transport:

Basically, within the Government Plan for Island public realm, including St. Helier , there is a provision for £400,000 next year. That money is intended to ... at the moment we have the Future St. Helier strategy. We have the developing southwest of town planning framework and the measures that are included within the States of Jersey Development Company. We also have the northwest of town master plan. We have a town cycle network, which is being developed, and the eastern cycle network and western cycle network. The intention for that £400,000 is to start pulling all those different aspects together into a cohesive and legible programme of works. At the moment the projects that are waiting for the public realm money are the type of things that were developed through the Future St. Helier work, which was consulted upon during the previous Government term. Obviously, this funding, if it is to be ongoing, will need further projects developing. That will have to be done in conjunction with sites that we know are being developed in town and planning obligation agreements. So it will be to produce a programme of work and start delivering some of those enhancements.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is always a concern when you get lots of people involved, and clearly this is an area where there will be several other Ministers as well as the Parish of St. Helier involved.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Also St. Saviour .

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes. Who co-ordinates it? Is there somebody driving it or pulling it all together?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Politically - and, in fact, we met earlier on this week - the Regeneration Steering Group, which is a body that was set up to do just this, is the body that is going to be co-ordinating that investment and the priorities within it. That is a combination of Ministers and currently the Constable of St. Helier and if the scheme is ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Who is the chair for that?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: The Chief Minister.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

The Chief Minister is definitely the chair?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Once again, do external stakeholders get involved with that?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The relevant parish is involved. Whether you can call them external or not is a debate with 2 Constables I am not going to have. Then S.O.J.D.C. are represented for some elements and the proposal is to get some of the other States-owned entities involved on schemes which they have an input in; perhaps Andium and the Ports of Jersey as well.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If there was an item that involved St. Saviour or St. Brelade , then obviously you would both be invited in for that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Well, St. Saviour is going to be involved with the north because there is bound to be an overspill.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So there would be a representative on the panel.

Director of Transport:

On each individual scheme, there will obviously be detailed conversations with people who live in the areas, any businesses that are affected and the parishes. It is the type of thing that you have been involved in in St. Saviour . We would, as a department, look to run them in a very similar way as the schemes are identified and come to the point of delivery.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just tipping back into capital major projects, we have a couple of points. When you are talking kind of replacing a school, I mean, you are quite good at building schools. The funding proposed for 2020, is that £150 million the total sum for that project or is that ...?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The latest school is in St. Brelade , which is coming on nicely. We paid a recent visit and it is a stunning build. It is looking very, very smart, on time and on budget.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The Victoria College replacement school 2020, £150 million, is that ?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is not £150 million.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is £150,000. That is the pre-feasibility value.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I thought that was rather hopeful. [Laughter]

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: Very gold plated.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Took 10 years off my life.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

So when would you anticipate that to start and finish?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Where are you hoping to put it?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is a pre-feasibility vote, so that is one of the things that is being looked at. There is funding identified and it is worth saying that some of the funding within the capital pages that you have in front of you and are in the Government Plan, only the things in bold are what have been approved. So there are 4 years identified, but it is only those in bold that have been approved by the States. On page 149, which shows the States including schools, there is a sum identified for the start of the work on the V.C.P. (Victoria College Preparatory) replacement school. In 2022 there is £1 million and in 2023 it is the second one down under the section "Estates, including schools". There is a figure of £2 million in 2023. That is the start of funding being released for the cash flow to build it but at this point that is just a place holder. That is indicating the likely timing. It is not fixed in stone. You are not being asked to approve it as part of this Government Plan, but it is there to illustrate when they expect, having done the pre-feasibility work and sorting out things, that the first year is design and whatever and then it will work up further.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So they do not know where they are going to build it, theoretically?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: I am sure there are ideas.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : I am sure there are.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

This is the second one. I remember this one being built, which probably ... [Laughter].

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So the fact that a site has been cleared has nothing to do with what could possibly happen, but we are organising money for the school that we are going to build but we are not quite sure where?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: The only agreement is the £150,000.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Even that will be subject to approval by the Minister for Treasury and Resources to release the funding for that pre-feasibility.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

But we still do not know where we are going to put it?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: No.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: Part of the work of pre-feasibility is to determine site location.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. This is one of the big challenges which I think has been addressed successfully. The pre- feasibility vote highlights schemes that need more work on and it puts an anchor in there. There is, as John said, an indication of what could happen. An example of this is the Rouge Bouillon site of fire and ambulance combined service there, but it is also a potential for Rouge Bouillon School to move into the same site. There is lots of complexity around that and the feasibility work needs to be undertaken properly so that we get the best outcome. We do not know what that outcome is. We used to have a planning vote in the States a few years ago and this is effectively the same thing, so the pre-feasibility vote. You know, 6 months ago we got to the point where we were doing business cases to provide a business case, which felt very clunky and very inefficient, because there just was not enough information to start the project.

[16:00]

What this does is it gives you an allocation of money so that you can do the right thing and you can get the right studies and solutions there before you start firming up what the outcomes are going to be.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It adds a little bit more flexibility than the previous central planning vote did, in that you can potentially bid for funding for that to develop the scheme before that scheme has been agreed by the States later on in the capital programme. The central planning vote you could only apply for planning money once the scheme had been agreed, which was the wrong way round. Over time there may be some things that get funding from pre-feasibility that it is then determined that they are not feasible to deliver for whatever reason. The expectation on the planning vote was that when you got the capital funding it will be replenished. This is allocating funding out to do this work. There is not necessarily an expectation that every single thing that is in that pre-feasibility vote will end up being built.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: That is correct.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: But you need to do that work up front.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I appreciate that Piquet House across the Square is still not in very bold print. Do we have any movement on that?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The Greffe has written a business case on behalf of the Bailiff , which I understand will be gratefully received, but other than that we have no understanding. If it does not progress then I am sure we will be back to our attempts to dispose of the building. As it stands, there is a clear plan to repurpose it, to reuse it, and we hope that comes to fruition.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In terms of the structure of the building itself, it does not give an appearance of being particularly good. I just wonder in terms of the funding, I mean, you have £150,000 in 2020. Once again is that ?

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: That is pre-feasibility. There is funding later on in the programme.

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. In terms of its condition, the drains are weeded. It has not been repainted, but in terms of keeping it watertight and windproof, that is being attended to.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, right.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you recall, there was a proposition to the States a few years ago, saying we must not dispose of it, it must stay in States ownership.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

By the Environment Deputy , I think, or Minister.

The Minister for Infrastructure: The very same, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Perhaps it could come out of his budget.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Interesting thought, yes.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The £150,000 in 2020, again over the page on page 149, is indicative that it would be about £1.85 million over the period 2021 to 2022. We are flagging up again that that is the sort of quantum of it, but that £150,000 in 2020 is to work up plans.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good. Just going back to the vehicle testing centre again, in terms of completion of the project, it looks like 2023 will see the completion of that project.

Head of Finance Business Partnering, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is a slightly longer tail of funding than we would have originally identified.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes. I am just thinking in relation to the proposal for compliance with the Vienna Convention, we suggested that we would be getting on line earlier, I thought. Going by the testing centre, we cannot really do that. Am I right in thinking that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think we just made the start so ...

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we are involved already with motorcycles and vehicles ... but I think it is a good point well made. For the bulk of the testing, then the facilities will be fully functioning when we promised earlier.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Realistically, it is going to be what, 2023 or 2024 before we could see a car testing centre on stream?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Potentially you could phase it. It depends on where it is going to be and how you build it. It is only a big garage. I do not want to make it sound more complex than that. It is a steel portal frame building. You may be able to build the first phase of it and then the second phase later. It is going to ... stepping it into a place of being used, you really need it built and operational.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You are responsible, under the bracketing mental health and improvements, the 3.93. Is that Orchard House or was that ...?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The works are prepare one side, move people across so that further works can be done to Orchard House, and then move people back.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Right. Does that include the Orchard House work or has that ...?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment: I believe it includes it, yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

They are relocating ... is it Rose House? Yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Sorry, you believe or you are relocating?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I believe it is called ... they are relocating across the road from Orchard House.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Orchard House seems to be a very depressing place.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, they are going over the road while Orchard House is being modernised, then they will be moving back.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

How will that then fall into the plans that we have been told they have for St. Saviour Hospital? Supposedly, what is being mooted is a village like Maufant, with shops and bits and pieces. In the middle of that, are you going to have Orchard House?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment:

At the moment, this is being taken care of by the Health and Community Services, so we are facilitating the works, but it is purely a temporary measure to make sure that in the interim until St. Saviour has decided the future shape of the medical services, it decided that the facilities that we have for those people who need it are

The Connétable of St. Saviour : A bit nicer than they have now.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, this is not long-term works.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes, it is a broad capital bid to ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour : That is good.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am just picking out some elements of your areas. Obviously, the conversion of courtroom 1 in the Magistrates Court, this is purely to off-strut the Royal Court?

Interim Director, Estate and Asset Management, Growth, Housing and Environment: Again, it is a project that we are not involved in, but I understand that this is to make sure that the levels of security meet the modern requirements.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes. That is fine. Well, do you have anything else?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Not on this, but I have something I want to ask.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Do please ask.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

It is something I want you all to look into. As Mr Dodd will confirm, I am a great one on social media and something has been coming up on social media. Someone was able to visit a home which is up for sale, and a lot of the granite in it is from the old prison. It is a private house that is up for sale and the granite has the names of different prisoners that were in in the 1800s inscribed on it. I would like to know why the granite, which is supposed to be kept secret and in a hidden location but everybody knows where it is, why some of the granite was given out or sold or whatever, procured for a private home, and why these engravings and initials of people who have been in the prison have been allowed to go into a private house and were not put into the museum or kept. It is not your major problem, but I would like you to, please, look into it, because I think this is a disgusting thing that has happened. I do not think all these stones which ... there were photographs of the stones on social media and they have been occurring quite a bit through the last 48 hours. The gentleman who has the property up for sale seems to be very proud of the fact that he has these. He should not have these, and I want to know how he has been able to procure them and why the Island has not been involved and if he paid for them where the money went and how much, and who gave the okay for it. Because as an Islander, I am really angry the way this Island is being raped and pillaged.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been given away or sold.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Well, it is all on social media.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As you say, it is in a location ... we will look into that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : I did send it to you, did I not?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

That is why I sent it to you, so that you would have a heads up. I do want this looked into. I have to be honest - and those of you sitting here will know me - I will not let this go until we have some answers for the Island and the Islanders. Because that has been disgusting to have these stones, which have people's names and dates engraved on them, in someone's private home. It should never, ever have happened.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that these stones have been hanging around for many years and capital projects keep coming up, could the department consider prioritising utilising it in a useful public realm?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It was going to be utilised on the new Liberation Square, but that now is not happening because the road is not being extended.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Right, yes.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Again, this is before my time, quite a bit ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour : I know, it was in the 1800s.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

But my understanding was that it was the arches and the façade of the prison that was retained within the States. I need to check whether it was the whole amount.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes, please.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I am not sure who I will be checking that with; somebody older than me.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Well, I sent the name to the Deputy in charge and I really think this should be looked into, because I thought it was absolutely disgusting.

Director of Transport:

I do not have any particular information or interest in this, but from my recollection as a young boy, when the prison was demolished certain stones went ... some of it became available for people to use and must have been sold off at the time. The best stones were put into the museum. So the museum did get the best ones with the best carvings on because I remember seeing them with a boat carved in them and things like that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

These were quite good, these carvings. They had the names.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The only bits that came to us were the façade and the arches. That is with us.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : That is fine, but if you could look into it ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: We will do.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

... because it was an Island building and I need to know - and so will the rest of the world - where the money went and who gave the okay for them all to be sold off.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Do we recall when it was demolished?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Jersey Demolition were the people who demolished most of it.

Director of Transport:

Forty-five years ago, something like that, maybe longer.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Maybe they had rights to ...

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Well, this is it, if you could look into it. If it was a case of: "If you can knock it down, you can have the granite if you do it on the cheap", I want to know.

The Minister for Infrastructure: We will look into that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Thank you. So if you could look into it, and I have to be honest, I will ask every time you visit me.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I appreciate that it is not really your area, but in terms of I.T. (information technology), my understanding is that there is a bit of fluidity there. Where are you with the Licar project?

Director of Transport:

I cannot advise on that, I am afraid.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Apparently, we are very close to fulfilling the original requirement. It has been a very difficult project, which you are probably both aware of.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Oh, yes. In the parish halls it has been a mess.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It has been really challenging. I think we have had 7 project managers. Andy's team are very close. We can give you an update, but Andy is not here to give you that. He had a meeting last week. He is monitoring it on a very regular basis, as is Gordon. It has just been a really difficult project, more challenging than we could ever have imagined. The changes through how I.T. is being delivered and the lack of continuity in personnel has made it a big challenge.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yet these are experts in the field.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I am far more comfortable building things than working in software because at least you can see the progress, as you can see on some of my other projects.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for coming along today. I close the meeting and look forward to seeing you in the future.

[16:13]