Transcript - Government Plan Review Education and Home Affairs - Minister for Home Affairs - 27 September 2019

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Government Plan

Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs

Friday, 27th September 2019

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair) Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter Deputy T. Pointon of St. John

Witnesses:

Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement , The Minister for Home Affairs

Mr. J. Blazeby, Director General, Justice and Home Affairs

Mr. J. Wileman, Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police

Mr. L. Goddard, Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service

[10:02]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair):

Welcome to the quarterly hearing with the Minister for Home Affairs, which is extensively going to focus on the Government Plan. I draw your attention to the information on the sheet there about the guidance for these hearings, which I know you are very familiar with. Can I ask everyone to switch their phones off? There should be no recording, but it is streamed live and you can download it as well, so the information is there. Okay, if we make a start, the first thing I would ask

Deputy T. Pointon of St. John : Introductions.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Introductions, excuse me. If we introduce ourselves, I am Deputy Robert Ward . I chair the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter : Rowland Huelin, Deputy of St. Peter .

The Deputy of St. John :

I am Trevor Pointon, Deputy of St. John .

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Leonard Norman, Constable of St. Clement and Minister for Home Affairs.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Julian Blazeby, Director General, Justice and Home Affairs.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

My name is James Wileman. I am the Acting Deputy Chief of the police.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: Luke Goddard. I am Acting Director for Customs and Immigration.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Thank you. If there is anyone else who comes up, you can introduce yourself. Okay, the first question is a general question. Can you confirm what the departmental budget for 2020 and each subsequent year within the Government Plan is?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

2020 is pennies under £57 million. I do not have the figures. I have got the Government Plan in my bag here, but I have not looked at the rest of it. It follows that sort of figure throughout the term. That is the one that will be fixed for 2020. As you know, the Government Plan now, it is not like the Medium Term Financial Plan, it is not fixed for the 4-year term, but it is flexible.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How does that compare with 2019 is the key of what we are trying to get. Is there some sort of picture of where we are in comparison to previous years? The figure for 2019, the overall budget for 2019 compared to 2020, do you see that there has been an increase? Do you have a figure for 2019? I imagine you would have, because you have spent that money.

No doubt there will be some underspend, hopefully. As I say, the figure I have got for 2020 is £54 million, not the figure I gave you just now.

Deputy R.J. Ward : £54 million?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, £54,190,300. That is the allocation for 2020.

Deputy R.J. Ward : And 2021?

The Minister for Home Affairs: £55,373,000.

Deputy R.J. Ward : And 2022?

The Minister for Home Affairs: £55,548,000.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is the overall or that is the baseline?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

On top of that baseline will be additional expense that we will talk about today from the Government Plan.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That will be the baseline, but then again you have got the additional for pay awards, inflation and that sort of thing, which is always funded centrally.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. What is the apportion between the services under your remit of that budget either as a percentage or an actual figure? So is the majority police, Fire, Ambulance? Although I think that has not yet been finalised entirely.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The police have by far the biggest proportion. They have just over £24 million in 2020, the Prison Service £11 million and then Customs and the Ambulance Service very similar; Customs and Immigration £5.7 million, Ambulance Service £5.6 million, Fire and Rescue Service just over £5 million.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, so we have got the proportion out to the Ambulance Service. Now, one of the key features of the Government Plan is efficiencies in order to fund I mean, it is slightly mysterious, but can you provide any update on the efficiencies you will be making during the course of the Government Plan and any specifics? Because I think that is what we are really looking at when we scrutinise.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The work on efficiencies will go on for ever, because I think it is right that every States department has to provide the best service it can for the public, the appropriate service for the public at the appropriate cost, so that will be looked at all of the time. In the immediate term with the found efficiencies, close toward £700,000 for 2020. When I say "efficiencies" that does include things like we have recently announced the increased cost of passport fees, so there will be additional revenue there which is included in that sort of figure.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So efficiencies includes additional revenue?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It includes additional revenue, yes. It is a bit of a misnomer calling it additional because it does include additional revenue in this case.

The Deputy of St. John :

I am wondering if we can look at the efficiencies already made, Minister. I did a bit of digging to look at the budgets for previous years and in 2017 the budget for Home Affairs was more or less the same as the budget published in the Government Plan, around £50 million. Now, if the Ambulance Service are going to be funded to the tune of £5 million, that would mean that currently you would be spending on those services that Home Affairs were previously responsible for around £49 million,

which in effect is a saving over and above the budget as it was in 2017, talking about almost a £2 million reduction in budget. Where has that come from?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

As I say, I do not have the 2017 figures. What I can tell you is that the budget for the Ambulance Service was obviously transferred from Health and Community Services and is included in our budget now. As I say, I do not have the 2017 figures and I have not done that exercise. I am interested in going forward.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think the concern that you are raising is that you have had that transfer of budget, but it does not seem to have materialised as an overall increase in budget to the proportion of the budget for the service that you are taking on, with a shortfall of around £2 million.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

As far as we are concerned, we have no budget shortfall. Julian, I do not know if you

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

No, that is right. I understand completely the question. The overall headline is that the budget has not taken a reduction when you add in Ambulance, but it is not as straightforward as just saying the Ambulance budget comes across and therefore that adds up on to the 2017/18 budget. Some elements of what was the old Community and Constitutional Affairs have been taken away, so there has been some give in some places and some take away in some others. That transition has not completely settled down yet.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, just for clarity, what type of things have been taken away?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

There were some resources that went to the new S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population) Department that previously sat at C.C.A. (Community and Constitutional Affairs), so that was set within the budget and then some resources moved under the policy team, so that will have reduced the budget, and obviously if you then add into the budget, you will not have the same figure; it will go up or down. Does that make sense?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I understand what you are saying.

The Deputy of St. John :

But I do think we need some more clarity in relation to where and what the funding is because there seems to be quite a lot of smoke and mirrors in relation to the actual constitution of the budget.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, no. What the funding is, is as per the Government Plan. What it was in 2017 is different because Julian has just reminded me of course Justice and Home Affairs was borne out of mainly the C.C.A. Department and not all of those services that were run by C.C.A. came to Home Affairs, the S.P.P.P. unit, the Chief Operating Officer, things like that, so it is impossible, I think, to make a comparison with back then and now because the responsibilities of each department are different.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

What I am confident of is that there is not any smoke and mirrors. All the service heads would say their budget from 2017/18 and then 2019 has not taken a dive or a reduction.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask one quick thing? Just before we go off efficiencies, can I ask you to define what you understand by efficiencies then, because if it is a misnomer in terms of calling them efficiencies - so it can be an increase, for example - how are you seeing efficiencies that are so crucial to the Government Plan in delivery of some very positive things?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

In my head, efficiencies mean doing things at least as well for the benefit of the public at a lower cost, where possible. That is being efficient, I think. That is what efficiencies really mean. In addition to that, we have raised the passport fees to bring them into line with what is charged in the United Kingdom, so that obviously helps the bottom line as well, but I would not try and pretend that is an efficiency. That is an increase in revenue. It does not go towards the savings.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So you have managed to save £700,000 by just doing things better from the efficiencies from this year?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Approaching £700,000 for 2020, yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I am going to use a poor business word, the juggling that you have been doing, how have you managed therefore to come to the definitive number of £700,000 worth of efficiencies? How have you calculated that £700,000 of efficiencies?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. Departments have all been asked to review what savings they can possibly make.

The Deputy of St. Peter : So it is the sum of the parts?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is the sum of the parts, yes. It includes the Prison Service and Fire.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So is that not a decrease in budget for those departments as they save?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

The purpose of the efficiency savings is absolutely to reduce the bottom line, so in answer to your question, £200,000 from the Prison Service, £200,000 efficiency savings from the Customs and Immigration Service, a further £75,000 in overall efficiency savings - and I can talk about that in a bit more detail - and then the additional income from the passports, that was £668,000, and this was referred to, nearly £700,000. The way that the Prison Service and the Customs and Immigration Service have achieved those things is where posts have been relinquished, either people retiring or going off on ill health, they have then looked at whether they need those posts, and those posts may have been in service to 20, 30 years, and could they deliver that service in a different way. That is how I would see it in terms of becoming more efficient and effective.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The Prison Service do have concerns though, do they not, over these efficiencies?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

There have been concerns highlighted recently, as you have seen in the media and other places, around the efficiencies programme. I am confident and the prison Governor is confident that the figure that they have taken out has not impacted in any way, shape or form the security and safety of the prison.

The Deputy of St. John :

So for efficiency, we should really lose jobs?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

No, because it is not just salami-slicing and cutting and taking jobs out. If posts are removed and the business either stays the same or improves, then that is becoming more efficient and effective. I would not say that is just cutting. It is emotive language, saying cutting jobs and losing jobs.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

How are you monitoring reporting of those efficiencies? If retirements come along, therefore there are less people, so how are you tracking that those efficiencies are not compromising service?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

In some cases in the Prison Service, those posts have already gone and the service heads are able to report that there has been no detriment to the service at all, and in lots of cases, some improvement within

[10:15]

The Deputy of St. Peter :

But how are you monitoring that?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

The services will have their own performance management in terms of safety and security around the prison, a whole range of performance indicators.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is there the capacity for those service managers to come and say: "No, that is detrimental" or is it a situation whereby: "Look, you have got to save this money. You are going to lose that post. Make do with what you have got and look for ways in which it is not detrimental"? Do you see what in terms of the

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Absolutely, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Because there has got to be an open particularly in the prison, with the safety of staff and the wellbeing and rehabilitation, which is what prison should be about, there is that capacity for the service heads, as you call them I lose track of titles, if I am honest.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Yes. I mean, this has been done collaboratively with the services, so this is not Government or myself going: "Take £200,000 out of your budget." This is saying: "We all need to make efficiencies to contribute towards the Government 4-year plan in terms of taking out £100 million. How can we go about it?"

The Minister for Home Affairs:

"What can you do?" It is not: "You are going to do this" but: "What can you do to help Government?"

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you not feel it might be because of the importance of efficiencies for the Government Plan that

I understand you are saying: "What are efficiencies can you make?" and it sounds lovely, you know, let us all look at what we can do, but because effectively you have to make these efficiencies, is that not the precursor to this just happening regardless?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I take the attitude we have to make these efficiencies, subject to the level of service for the public and the Island not being reduced. That has been my bottom line from the very beginning. It is down to the service heads to come up and tell us what they can and cannot achieve.

The Deputy of St. John :

But we know, Minister, that especially in relation to the police, service numbers have reduced quite significantly.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Indeed.

The Deputy of St. John :

Only now we are seeing a crisis in which those services are going to need to come back up.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I do not know if crisis is the right word, but certainly when I looked very carefully at what happened over the Medium Term Financial Plan, there is no question that of the uniformed services, police took the biggest hit. I have not really discovered why. We have done a lot of work with the Police Authority and with the management team at the States of Jersey Police as to what we can do to rebalance that and that is included in the Government Plan.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What was the rationale in the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) for reducing police numbers to 215? Well, it was 188, was it not?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

They were open to 190, but it was not a matter of reducing it. The plan was not to reduce the number to 190. What happened was there was an arbitrary budget figure given to the States of Jersey Police and that eventually led to them only having the budget for 190 officers.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You see, this is a concern I have regards efficiencies, because that is sort of analogous to what could happen with efficiencies: we have to make these efficiencies in order for the Government Plan to work and it could be staffing levels that go. It happened with the M.T.F.P., so there must have been a rationale that allowed those numbers to drop so severely and our police force having to do the job with significantly lower numbers and us still wanting them to do the job that they do, but with significantly less. I will give you an example. The numbers are going up to 225. The States of Jersey Police Association see this is as a modest increase and the Police Authority talk about it being the lowest optimal baseline. Are you happy for the police to be operating at the lowest optimal baseline?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Again, I want the police to be operating at a proper level that they can provide the service that Jersey needs and Jersey deserves. Over the last 6 to 8 months with the Police Authority, we asked the management team at Jersey Police to come up with a report to examine what would be the optimum number to provide that sort of service. James Wileman and his team came up with a figure of 226, which would have been an increase of 36 - yes, I will just get my sums right - officers. After examining the report, I thought that I could sell to the Council of Ministers and to the States an increase of 215. I have got to tell you - I do not mind telling you - that it was a big job in the Council of Ministers to convince them of that need, but I eventually did so. But it is on the understanding that there would be an independent review of police numbers, probably carried out by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary from the United Kingdom, although the terms of reference are still being sorted out, to justify my figure, to justify a lower figure or to justify a higher figure. So that is a good compromise at this time. Having said that, of course to recruit that number of new officers in a 12-month period would be very difficult anyway.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, I take that on board.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

So if the review says: "Yes, it should be 226" or a different number, then we have the time to deal with that, but still give the police the confidence that they need, that the public of the States and the Council of Ministers are behind them and supporting them.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The review will take time, and during that time the police are operating at a lowest optimal baseline for them to provide the service that we want

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, they are increasing to 200 immediately. They have got some funding immediately for this year and recruiting is currently going on. We already have the commitment for 215 to be in place by the end of next year, so they are increasing all the time.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But the number of 226, which is from the management of the Police Service - which I would listen to because they are in the job on the front line, to be quite frank - now seems to have to go through a review process which could take an enormous amount of time. I mean, we all know how many reviews there are going on at the moment, but I do not see how that is going to speed up recruitment. It would just delay recruitment. Will it not make the situation worse? We will be delaying while we are taking on a review and then we would have to find the officers which it seems inevitable that the review would say we would need. Why do we not just do that now?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, we are, in a sense. James will correct me if I am wrong, but whenever we advertise for new recruits into the Police Service, we are inundated with responses. During the last month - this month, whenever it was - I think there were about 122 people came forward for the role and are being now evaluated.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

A tactical question: how many of those when you analysis a C.V. (curriculum vitae) warrant taking on to the next stage? What was the quality of those as opposed to the quantity?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Good quality. The Minister is absolutely correct, we had in the region of 120-odd candidates express interest by attending one of our open evenings. We held 3 sessions to explain what a role in the police might look like. From memory, we had around 102 applications and through the normal filtering processes you might expect, some will fall away naturally at that process. I think we are down to about 80 candidates now who are about to go through fitness tests and aptitude tests, with an aim to get to 40 individuals who will come forward to extended interview processes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Also what will happen, of course we have a pool.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: We do.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We have a pool of these people, so when vacancies occur in the future or if there will be a higher number required, we do not have to go and start the process all over again. We go back to these people and say: "Okay, we have now got vacancies."

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What is the time from initial application to an officer being an effective and efficient member of the Police Service?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

From advert to first day in the building can be in the region of maybe 7 months. All constables who join our organisation now go on a training course and they go to the U.K. (United Kingdom) for a 10- week period. We have managed to reduce that from 15-week period previously to a 10-week by going with a different provider. But all constables who join start with a 2-year probationary period, so in terms of being signed off as operationally capable and competent to deal with whatever comes their way, then you can see how it is quite a long and drawn-out process. But in the sense of having additional officers on the ground, that can be a relatively swift process of around 7 months of recruitment process, 10 weeks of training, and when they get back to Jersey they are allocated a tutor constable and they are straight out on the ground interacting with the community.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

So just up to a year is the time?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Around.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I think we have to give credit to the Minister for fighting to get those numbers up again, because they were perilously low, the situation that you inherited, I suggest, but the concern is it is not a magic wand, that you can suddenly have 226 or 223, whatever the review is. It is ensuring there are processes in place to get the right people into the service quickly and that I think is part of the concern.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is partly that. What you have done is reassure that there are people there to take these posts, and I think it goes back to the original question: if the numbers appear to be the optimal number is 226, but we have got 215. Regardless of how much effort and time you have put into increasing those numbers from what were way too low, perhaps the Council of Ministers should have accepted 226 as the number, but perhaps it was not taken to them.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think you could make that case, but as I said earlier on, it did not really matter too much, because there is no way we could have got those numbers in post the next year. Accepting that they can have 215 for next year, and if necessary increase after that, is absolutely fine and acceptable to the Police Authority and acceptable to the management at the police and is also, from the chats I have had with other police officers, acceptable to colleagues throughout the ranks.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

We also need to consider the breadth and depth of skills, but I think we cover that a little bit later.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, we will do.

The Deputy of St. Peter : We will be covering that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes. It is also worth mentioning not every police officer comes raw to the job. There are recruits from the U.K., recruits of officers who are married to local people and who can join the force, so some of them do have the experience already at the moment they join.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I am just making this one up - i.e. it is not scripted - my experience in the Honoraries, I think some people see that as an introduction, working for the Honorary Service as getting their skills up. Can you comment on that? This is for those people in the Honoraries that might be looking for a career; that is not for anything else.

I will ask James to comment on this as well, but my understanding is that the States of Jersey Police do value any policing experience that future colleagues might have in the Honorary Police, and in fact are encouraged to join the Honorary Police. In fact, I have got one in the St. Clement Honorary Police Force is making an application at this time to join the States of Jersey Police.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

There are 122 people out there who could be candidates for the Honoraries, so that is a punt for the Honoraries on behalf of all the Constables.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Thank you, Deputy .

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

They can, and I was delighted to be at the Royal Court last Friday swearing in the officers, and 2 out of those 5 had started their policing career in the Honorary Police, so yes, it is a success story there.

The Deputy of St. John :

Just moving to the review for a moment, have we got some sort of timeline for the commencement of our review and the cost of it? Who will undertake the review?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

As I say, it is likely, I think, unless things have changed, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire will undertake the review. That was agreed with the Police Authority and the Chief Executive on behalf of the Council of Ministers. The terms of reference are being discussed between the Police Authority and again the Council of Ministers. That has not been finalised yet. As soon as that is finalised and I think the Inspectorate has said they are prepared to do it.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

They have, yes, and it will not be a particularly long review. I can imagine it taking maybe on the ground a week and maybe another week to report that. So once the terms of reference have been agreed and there is availability from H.M.I.C.F.R.S. (Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services) then the review will be commenced.

The Deputy of St. John :

While we have got the Police and Fire Inspectorate on the Island, will you have them look at the Fire Service and its capability as well at this time?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It would be totally different people to do that job. We would not have the same people doing it, but I think the Fire and Rescue Service are due for an inspection.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

They are due for inspection and the plan is to get H.M.I.C. to come and inspect, but as the Minister quite rightly said, it would be a different part of the same organisation, so we aim to get them inspected next year, which will be the first time for many years.

The Deputy of St. John :

You have enlightened us. I did not realise that the inspectors were any different.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

They are specialists, not generalists, generally speaking.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of the additional officers, I am just going to touch on an area that we will probably come back to. Where will the additional officers be deployed? It is noted that the Financial Crimes Unit are proposing 6 additional staff. Would 6 of these officers be in the Financial Crimes Unit or are they additional?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The Financial Crimes Unit is already staffed, but it is temporary staffing, so the funding for that runs out at the end of this year. What we are proposing is that these posts be permanent, so these posts already exist, so they are not additional.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, so that is 3 detectives, 2 police staff and then one advocate.

The Minister for Home Affairs: That is correct.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. Just an important question, I think: if the Government Plan funding for that is not continuing, those posts would be lost?

[10:30]

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Any service provided by the States, if it is not funded in the Government Plan, will be lost, whatever that service might be.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The other area, we visited and spoke to the Offender Management Unit. It is a remarkable job that they do I have got to say publicly as well. Will any of the extra police work across those areas, because they are really working at capacity? Any of those officers could take on that it is a very difficult job, I know.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

For sure. In parallel to some legal changes around the work that they do, which may reduce some of their workload around the number of sex offenders, the uplift of police officers to 215 can work, and I support the Minister in that decision. The deployment of those officers is primarily into the community policing space, bar for a few niche allocations, and some of that may be into the Public Protection Unit, which more broadly has responsibility for the Offender Management team in that sense.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Things like the support for the Cybercrime Unit and those who analyse, I know that is a really key thing for them. There have been some issues over the level; that is basically because they are being overwhelmed. Can you see the increasing numbers helping in that area as well, perhaps even with civilian staff?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

It could do, and with volunteers and with a whole range of different approaches to the way that we look at and use technology. In terms of the deployment of the additional 25 police officers that come in and the important addition of also another 9 members of police staff, then the operational decision around how we deploy those staff across the organisation can and should be fairly flexible, so the majority of the police officers will go to the community space. If in the intervening time there is a need to move one into a high-tech crime space, then of course on an operational level we will make that appropriate decision at the time to do that.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can I ask you to just share with us quickly how you interpret your role against cybercrime and define what you believe it is?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

With so many new and emerging crime types, we are not going to arrest our way through cybercrime, so the answer here is very much about partnership work. We are pleased to be working with Government around the development of cybercrime teams and to support Government in that initiative. We have made it heavily in the education space over the last few years with partnerships around Get Safe Online and through Prison! Me! No Way!!! Our position so far has been mostly about raising awareness and in the education space and responding in an enforcement term when the situation and when the cases arise, but the future going forward is about having a stronger partnership/relationship with Government to help Government enable the broader delivery of cyber security across the Island.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What has happened with cybercrime is it has been around for quite a long time, and what has been running in parallel is the fact that the complexity of it has grown over the years and the tools and the skills to protect have got better, but the villains have also got better, so it is becoming a more complicated area. How are you proposing to skill up to match what is now big business on behalf of our criminal fraternity?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

I think what you said there about complexities is true across the board for many crime types. Certainly a lot of the demand that we are seeing is in increasingly complex crime cases. But how we will gear up for the future, again it is all about that partnership with Government, to make sure that we are all bringing the right skills to the table. The police are just one relatively small element in that sense. We have a certain set of niche skills and we continue to invest in the technology that we have that we can deploy either to support businesses and individuals with regards to their own security. This is broadly where household security was perhaps 20 or 30 years ago. There is somewhat an obligation on individuals to make sure that they lock their doors, so to speak, through appropriate virus protection and so on and so forth.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can we finish off in terms of there is a couple of let us get back on to the Government Plan on some of the specifics. Are you confident that the additional funding identified in the Government Plan will be enough for the objective of 215 warranted officers?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, absolutely. It has been guaranteed. I have agreement of the Council of Ministers, I have it in writing from the Treasurer of the States, because I always want to make sure that we have got this absolutely tied down and that there is no question about that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There is an additional £700,000 that is not contained in the Government Plan of funding. Are you certain of that funding if it is not in the Government Plan?

The Minister for Home Affairs: That is for 2020, is it not?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That has been guaranteed to come out of the contingency vote and that is absolutely cast-iron guaranteed. We are starting the recruitment process, so it has to be.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is good news. Next, Trevor, do you want to

The Deputy of St. John :

Can we move on to the combined control room? Once we establish what the timescale for this project is going to be, given there is investment required

The Minister for Home Affairs: Is that the question, sorry?

The Deputy of St. John :

Yes, what the timescale for the project is.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is already there, operational and working, so we are looking for work to be carried out next year to complete the project by the end of 2020.

The Deputy of St. John :

I believe there is an issue with compatibility of systems and there needs to be an upgrade of systems.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, and we are asking for money and it has been approved for that. Julian, do you want to talk to that?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

As you know, we brought Fire and Ambulance into the police control room, so therefore there are 2 different operating systems, the police system and the Fire and Ambulance system. As you say, they are not compatible because they were designed intentionally to be different, but obviously going forward there is, as the Minister said, money in the Government Plan as part of the project to identify and procure a system that will enable ideally everybody to work off the same platform.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask a question, which is a general question about I.T. (information technology)? I think we might come back to it a few times. There is a significant amount of money put away or planned - whether it is put away, I do not know - to update all of the States I.T. provision. It is that sort of compatibility and being used across platforms that is the key. How much of that funding would be used for this type of project? Are we funding this project now when we could be funding it through that central application of changing the overall I.T. system or is this money part of that money?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Is this money separate to the overall multi-million pound investment to get the States I.T. to a state where it should be?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

We know it is not in a good place, so this is separate to that. As part of the overall investment in the Government's I.T. infrastructure, I am confident that would support this project as the platforms become the same. As technology and resources start to get upskilled, I am sure that will help, even through the Project Management Office approach or project management, but this budget is separate to that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There is no risk that we are spending this money, but then when the update of other platforms comes across from the entire Government update that this will then become incompatible? There is future planning that this money on this system will not be wasted compared to the systems that will come online - if you will excuse the pun - later on?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Part of the investment for Government is about getting the architecture right, so it ensures that there is no conflict between systems. We have got a project manager involved in this case and, quite rightly, they have an eye on ensuring that if there is need well, there will be a need for connectivity between systems, that they are not incompatible. That will be part of the project management as we go forward.

The Deputy of St. John :

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are talking about a budget here of £2.29 million over the 4 years, is that correct?

The Minister for Home Affairs: £2.2 million.

The Deputy of St. John :

So in addition to that, what are the revenue costs going to be? This is a capital cost.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: It is, yes, for the systems.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

There is capital expenditure that has been allocated of £2.29 million, along with capital expenditure on all I.T. expenditure, there are going to be additional operational costs that are going to be on the operational budget, because software is leased nowadays, therefore is an operational cost. I think the question for the listener is what does that add to the total cost of this particular project?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

I do not have the breakdown of it. I understand the £2.29 million is capital. Whether that includes or not things like licences and bits and bobs, I am not sure. Part of the project is still developing the case around resource, for example, so who knows, it could be less resources, it could be more resources, a different type of resource. All that work is being commissioned and we are working through that.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, and it is also fair to say that there are operational costs now with the 2 different systems that have been used, so it is not as if it is going to be new revenue expenditure, because the thing is operational now.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

The current licences, 2 different systems and so on.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Totally understand that. It would be very interesting to have that breakdown of the costs that are going on the operational budget for software and so on and also additional services costs, which is people, implementation from outside the States to make this project complete. I would be very interested in that breakdown.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

This does seem to be the cost of the first phase only. It is on page 182 of the Government Plan, R.91, and it is the first phase. It is only funded in 2020 and I think our concern is that the next case is to update the current multiple I.T. communications, sourcing where the next few cases are subject to business cases, so they are not included in that money. Could we be starting a project that does not finish if we are not careful with the backup and the follow-up for the licences and so on? That is our concern. It is frontloaded, £2.2 million in 2020, to get the system in place, but I do not want to talk ill of the States computer and I.T. provision in the past, but it does tend to start something off and then leave no support as we go along. Is there not a risk of that in this project?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Like any I.T. project, there is always a risk around delivering I.T. projects all the time, but the amount that has been put forward will get this position where we will have all the technology in the room fit for purpose for a joint control, a genuine joint control. The business is still being worked on in terms of resources and how it is going to be delivered operationally. Our commitment and the Minister's commitment is - bear in mind that there is, as the Minister said, already investment in 2 different systems now - that investment will obviously just flow through to a new compliant control room and we will work through the business case and look at what the funding challenges are.

The Deputy of St. John :

You are intending to onboard the current service provided by JT Global. Are there going to be any financial implications there?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Again, we are working through that. The 999 system has been with JT now for a number of years. It could be better and I think that is recognised across both emergency services, Government and JT, so we are working through the detail in terms of their performance, the infrastructure that sits behind the 999 system and the benefits of bringing it forward, and if we do bring it forward into the joint control, to make sure it is stable and it is going to improve the system. So we are working through the detail at the moment.

The Deputy of St. John :

The process of onboarding is considered, is it not, to be best practice?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

I mean, there are obviously examples in the U.K. in terms of where BT manage 999, but I think I have talked to this panel before, we have got a system whereby if you call 999 it goes to a service, it is answered, but it is not triaged and there are no other announcers into the call, it is just simply a call. That is not being critical, that is just the call-handling service that is provided currently. Then that call is then forwarded to another service, so automatically you are introduced into that. The purpose is, first, to reduce response times, to reduce risk and also to ensure that the quality of call handling is improved.

The Deputy of St. John :

Just to get the mechanics of this out there to people listening, when a call goes through, it goes through the team and when they hear the word "fire", they direct it to Fire, and "ambulance", they direct it to Ambulance and vice versa?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: That is correct.

The Deputy of St. John :

What will be the change? What is your proposal for change?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

If the 999 calling comes away from JT and into the joint control room, the 999 call may well go direct to the service, so there will not be a third party passing on the call and handing it over.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Time has already been saved.

The Deputy of St. John :

What are the examples around that we have looked at that indicate that this would be preferable

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

It is a standard system in the U.K. in terms of 999 call handling.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

You are saving time and you are getting immediately straight away to the control room, who make the decisions.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Importantly, the person who is asking for a 999 service, because the vast majority of people are in need of emergency support, are getting somebody who is talking to them and handling the call straight away as opposed to a call handler, who is just going: "Okay, which service do you want?" and then putting them through again.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just to ask, to finish on that, but the business case that we have got here, do you have any more of that? Is there any more to it? Because we have got page 182, but there is no additional business case that has been sent to us.

[10:45]

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: So that is from the Government Plan?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, the business case, that is a one-pager.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There is. We have got one, okay. Sorry, I was just double-checking. We have got hold of that, have we not? Okay, that is fine. We got so many of those delivered to us. Yes, I think you want to

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Yes, patient records. Can you please just explain the budget to me? What is the patient record budget when it is allocated £667,000?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

This is for the Ambulance Service, yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Yes, it is under J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs) in the Government Plan.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Page 183.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am sure Julian will be able to give you some of the details of the project.

Deputy R.J. Ward : There is not a lot there.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

But it really struck me when I went out on my day with the Ambulance Service, when they are doing the patient records, they are doing it on A3 large pieces of paper in the back of the ambulance and obviously they cannot communicate that with anybody. I just felt that that was perhaps not as efficient as it should be, and if it could be done electronically, digitally, the information that the paramedic is recording could be moved on to the hospital at the same time so the hospital know exactly what is coming for them, rather than just a phone call or a radio call. Communication between the 2 I thought would have been absolutely

The Deputy of St. Peter :

So what I am trying to understand here, is this for, let us say, a paramedic to key in information to go forwards, to be pushed out to the hospital or are you expecting the paramedics to have an iPad or equivalent device where they can have these patient records to hand when they arrive onsite?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

So at the moment, as the Minister said, they have an A3 sheet. I have been there and the Minister has been there, and you have to hold a big sheet of paper and start asking details of the patient and their medical background, their medicines. This is quite out of date and other services have technology where you can input, that information gets sent straight to the hospital, so the hospital are ready and they know what is coming and they can research the system.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have got to ask this question

What is the money being spent on? What is £667,000 being spent on?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

This is a project to purchase the software and the kit. We are going to do it probably in collaboration with an ambulance service in the U.K. and there is very good connectivity with South Western Ambulance Service and that provision of service, to have the technology and the hardware to do it.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Okay. What I am now confused by is this healthcare review going on, part of which will feed into the design and the location of the hospital, which is going to be clinically led, as you know. The key to that provision there is to have obviously electronic patient records at the core of that and that is my understanding. What value add is your £670,000 going to do for that core project for the health records of everybody in the Island?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

The value added will be when the project comes to fruition, then the Ambulance Service will have the technology there to record it electronically. The value added will be when the hospital is in such a position that it has got its technology and it has got its own electronic patient records, the 2 will talk technically across each other; at the moment it is just pieces of paper.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I am trying to understand this. You are going to buy a tactical solution for ambulances, whereas the strategic solution for the healthcare of the whole of the Island is a work in progress at the moment. There is a risk there that those 2 will not be 100 per cent compatible. I am talking about setting up 2 different databases when you have different nomenclatures, Mr. Julian Blazeby, Mr. J. Blazeby, Blazeby J., it causes all sorts of problems with the linkage and integration of data. How are we going to be assured that that money is going to be well spent and not have to be dismissed when the strategic solution is delivered?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Sorry, yes, I understand that. The reassurance is the project is not being done in isolation, the project is done very much with Health and Community Services. They understand exactly what we are doing and will be compatible with the hospital when they go live with the electronic patient records. It would be madness, to be frank, if we introduced a system with the Ambulance Service that did not have any right connectivity to the hospital. The ambulance staff are very keen to get it.

The Deputy of St. John :

It is my understanding that they have not taken any decisions yet about what system to use and they are not likely to take the decision for about 3 years.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

It is a visionary project at the moment because it is so strategically important. They are not taking a tactical solution off the shelf, it has been part of the overall healthcare of the Island, which is a concern. I can understand if you are buying £667,000 worth of devices in order to receive that connection

Deputy R.J. Ward : That is a lot of devices.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

but having the software as well in conflict, I am confused by all of that. I do not think we are going to get the answers now, but this table is a concern.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think we will come back to the question I asked before about the funding as well, because is that not really part of the future hospital funding if it is a compatible system? It has got to be integrated as part of our overall medical records, which is a much larger project for the Island. Because what should happen is rather than the information going from ambulance to the hospital, they should be able to download that patient's record and know the medicines they are on at the time and that will not happen until the hospital has decided. But we are spending £667,000 only in the first year. There is no funding afterwards for that. I notice again it is very front-loaded and we are not entirely sure what it is for. But you are confident

The Deputy of St. John :

It gives me the impression that J.H.A. are taking a lead on creating a health system.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Which is to be applauded, as long as it is part of integration of planning and strategy.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

The Chief Ambulance Officer is absolutely committed to this, has wanted it for a number of years and is absolutely - to use your phrase - integrated with the Health and Community Services about ensuring it will join up. It is going to make their ability to work, when we get this in, much more efficient and effective

Nobody denying the benefit of it, by the way, absolutely not denying the benefit, I am just concerned about the

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We do not want a white elephant.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It has got to be future-proofed and

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Nor do we, and I am sure nor does the Minister.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, okay. We are pleased that there is confidence it will be compatible into the future, even though we do not know what systems the hospital are going to be using.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We will work with colleagues to make sure that that is the case. There is so much where technology can help you and I was thinking about it when we were talking about the Ambulance Service. Again, a little story, when I went out with them earlier this year, we went out on a call and we could not find the house, we drove past it. Again, Control had said: "No, you have gone past it, go back, go back 30 yards" or whatever because the name of the house was not written on the building. We must have wasted 40, 50, 60 seconds. It does not sound a lot, but in a life and death situation that can be very important. What I also want to see the ambulance fitted with, as soon as practicable, is a very sophisticated satnav system, so they can just have addresses put in there and they go straight to it; that is all these little things.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I totally get it, but I spent a career in data integration - or part of it - and I know the complexities and I know what can go wrong unless it is strategically organised at a central port going out.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, you are absolutely right, Deputy , but to me and to my mind that would be an important step forward in the service we offer.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Too important

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It has got to be right; it has got to be right.

The Deputy of St. John :

I do think, Minister, it is going to be a retrograded step to introduce the system for Ambulance before the health system is decided and before there is a known compatibility between the 2 systems.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I really do understand that, they are going to have to be compatible, they have to be future-proofed. But really I do not want to delay improvements to the service that we provide, that I am committed to provide, that I am required to provide to the public of this Island, waiting for something else to happen.

The Deputy of St. John :

But this has the potential for a complete waste of £667,000 if

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It has got the potential to save lives as well, do not forget that.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Part of the preparing strategy will have to be, clearly, that it needs to be able to integrate with other health systems as they come online, but they have been provided in the U.K., who have used them.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

But ultimately, you have got to have one central database, the central record system for every single patient in the Island.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Absolutely, absolutely.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What is happening there is you are building a second database. By definition, you are building a second database because the tail is leading the dog, in a worthy case. What I am concerned is the fact that that database and the Ambulance database will have to be switched off, all data gone to

the central patient records database and so the Ambulance becomes subservient to the core database for the health of the Island. As long as it is a stopgap and transitional process to go through, then otherwise what happens is you get inconsistencies with the database because you have 2 different inputs that are going in, one into the Ambulance and one into the central one and then you have to work out what is the accurate version of the truth and that is very difficult to manage. That is the concern.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but I do not see this as creating a second database at all. What it is designed to do is to provide information to the medical teams waiting for the patient at the hospital, describing what the condition of the patient is, what the trauma is, whatever it might be.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Minister, I get that, but I also asked the question, was it a 2-way process?

The Minister for Home Affairs: It has had to be, it had to be.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

That is where the problem comes, potentially.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Well, maybe

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The Government Plan is a yearly-funded Government Plan and we will be coming back to it each year. Both of these projects, the combined control room and the patient records, are funded in 2020, so I take it that money has to be spent in 2020. Is there a risk that you would rush to get that money spent and the system in place or is there some flexibility if you discover that this is taking a bit longer and you need to make some changes that that funding can continue and be, if you like, protected in the coming years?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, I think when you are looking back to not a year ago, a few years ago when the budget had to be spent by 31st December

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, that is my concern.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

so departments were going around spending money. Now when you have a project which has started, obviously the money has been voted and that is kept; that is my understanding.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Although it says 2020, if you are allowed to spend it all, it can continue.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

This is what Scrutiny and the Government Plan is about, is in showing that the money that has been allocated is not, if you like I am not saying it will, but if the project is not getting what you want, for you as well, you have got to be able to say: "No, we have got to make a brave step here and step back a little."

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

With the pressures of funding in a year, sometimes wrong decisions can be made. We do not want that to happen, so that I just want to ensure that that funding is available if you do need longer time, so to speak, in between

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That certainly is my understanding of

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

There is much more rigging, as I am sure you appreciate, in this Government Plan. There is a lot of conversation as to which year the funding should be put in and some of the budgets have been tapered because it is recognised that you will not get it spent on 1st January, which is why there is a different profile for each element. Unlike previous years, if we do not spend the money in 2020 on these projects, then we will have to, I think, go back and say: "The project has not been completed, but this is the direction of travel and we need the money still to continue." My understanding is we will get that commitment. In previous years money has been allocated to projects, timescales have slipped and it has just carried on and carried on and there has not been great management of the budget, which is why there has been much more rig around it.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Checks and balances.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, absolutely.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That will come back each year that we debate the Government Plan in the States Assembly, so we might be having this conversation again, but hopefully not. Okay, if we move on

The Deputy of St. Peter :

The old days of use it or lose it budgeting and so on are dead.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

If we move on, there are some questions in regards to the Settlement Scheme and I think it is a similar thing in terms of the funding because the funding for the Settlement Scheme is £91,000 in 2020 and then zero in the years after that. If anybody in this room knows what is going to happen with Brexit, then go to the bookies now, I suppose, but do you think a no-deal Brexit or any further extension on the withdrawal from the E.U. (European Union) would affect the requirement for the posts that this money is spent for, but only in 2020?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

You have said it probably better than I would, but at the present time the Settlement Scheme is complete at the end of next year, therefore the posts would no longer be required. As you say, Chair, the hope is there anything you wanted to comment on? Speculate.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

It is speculation, but with all the changes there have been, the chaos that has been going on with Brexit, there has not yet been any indication of a change to the end of what was the transition period and therefore the end of Settlement Scheme applications. At the moment it would be inappropriate to start budgeting outside of that and realistically we are still expecting within that period between now and the end of next year we would have had the opportunity to gather all the applications that we are going to need anyway. The no-deal situation will change the date at which applicants are eligible to the Settlement Scheme; in a no-deal will finish at the end of next month. In other words, they will need to have been here by that time, however, they have until the end of next year to apply. But if there is a no-deal we will be opening a temporary leave to remain scheme for those people that do arrive after that period until the end of next year.

[11:00]

They will be applying on a very similar platform and will come through to the case workers, so the same number of people will be dealt with by those same case workers. The no-deal does not really affect it. The only possible thing that could is a much bigger change, which would involve a change to the transition period and the Settlement Scheme's success.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Perhaps an extension may change the transition period. I know we are speculating, but it is just that the funding is a one-off and not continued. There would be a need perhaps from Government to be flexible in terms of future funding. Am I right in thinking it is reliant on you having all estimated 20,000 E.U. residents registered by the end of next year?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That is the plan, that is the anticipation, but do remember there has already been 2 extensions, at least 2 extensions to the Brexit date.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, I am.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

That has not changed the dates of the Settlement Scheme.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Even if Brexit is delayed by another month or 2 months or whatever, it does not mean the Settlement Scheme is going to be extended, probably it will not be.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

It is March 2021, is it not? It is the end of March 2021, is it not?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It was a date in March, I think it was 21st March, then it was a date in April and then

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

But the Settlement Scheme has to be registered by the end of March 2021, is it not? I cannot remember.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The end of next year and it can be extended for individual persons for different reasons.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How many have you got? Have you got the number of those who have registered up to date?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

It is very close, it has gone over 5,000, yes.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

I looked at it this morning and we are just over 6,100. We have had a massive input over the last 2 months. Basically in the last 2 months we have had 2,000 out of those 6,000 apply.

The Deputy of St. Peter : What do you attribute that to?

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: Brexit date, anxiety over what will happen at the end of next month.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Chaos.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

In the nicest way, it was predictable because I did predict it. It is just human nature that as the date comes up, people are getting concerned about it and want to get their status sorted. As much as we put the message out that they have nothing to fear of that date, they have got until the end of next year. I will probably be in the same position. I would like to get it done earlier if I was in that position.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you think you are reaching all members of the community that need to

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

Having sat in front of you before, we have since that date now reached out to a number of agencies that we think will get to what we consider to be vulnerable people. It is slightly different from the vulnerable people from the day one no-deal scenario of what might happen, but in terms of the Settlement Scheme, those people who may have far more important things on their mind than their immigration status. We have now spoken to Children and Young People's Services; we have spoken to 3 or 4 of the larger charities who have got inputs into over about 200 or 300 different families here. We have quite a high proportion of E.U. nationals within that. We have now gone through to the Probation Service. We have yet got to speak to our police colleagues, but we have got a list of those to reach into, to get the message out to those that anyone they feel may need to apply to make sure that they offer them that opportunity and to be assured that what we are not asking for is for that information to be provided to us, but for them to just give the message out to those people who they consider may need that information.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We are obviously working with the Honorary Constables

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

which has been very helpful.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am just thinking about the person who is at work all the time and perhaps has been in Jersey for 30 years and thinks: "I am sure that does not apply to me" and they are just not getting the message. I suppose it will be ramped up as Brexit gets closer and closer or whatever happens gets closer and closer; who knows? It is just a scenario. I suppose in all these things you should plan for the worst- case scenario so that you are prepared for it. Because our understanding is that the situation could occur if somebody does not register, they can stay in Jersey, but if they leave Jersey and try and get back they could have a real problem. Do we have a scenario where somebody who has been here for 30 years goes to visit a relative in Spain or Italy or somewhere and then comes back and is stuck at Gatwick or whatever because of this situation? Do we have a plan for those sorts of we might be thinking a little ahead. I would not spend too long on this.

The Deputy of St. Peter : It is a long question, that. Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, it was.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

We have assurances that we are following the same policy that the U.K. is following. As you know, this is an enabling piece of legislation to help the people that are here and there is not going to be a heavy-handed approach to those people, for good reason. It may simply be naivety that they have not applied. They will be given that opportunity to do so without any concern of fines or offences in the first instance and each case will be considered individually for those people who we may think are deliberately trying to hide from offences. But those that have had good reason to are not going to be given a heavy hand, they will be invited to apply without any consequences.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

This will clearly be rear-ended and there is nothing you are going to do about it. What measures are you doing to ensure that you do not get that panic rush in the last month? It is 2 questions: how are you going to prevent it; with the best will in the world, you will not.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Exactly.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: You have answered my question, human nature will

The Deputy of St. Peter :

But how are you going to resource to make sure those people in the situation that Rob describes, who are focused on day-to-day life, can meet that deadline?

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

You are absolutely right, and in the same prediction that you could make that we were going to see an increase for this period coming up to Brexit, I am confident we will see another increase towards the end of next year, whatever we do. However, we are working very closely with the comms unit. There was a consideration that even around now we may think of getting further information out, but obviously it is self-advertising at the moment. But over the lull, I imagine it may come at the beginning of next year, towards the end of next year, we will be working with the comms unit to make sure that we get good information out to try and reach further communities that have not yet applied. Then to cover what will inevitably be another rush towards the end of next year, we are already now training some of our uniformed officers to support the casework team and some of the responsibilities of the Settlement Scheme casework team are already being shared with our normal immigration business as usual casework team, who will be starting to take on some of that responsibility as well. There will be further resources to support them.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is this the scenario, next December you get 5,000 applications in a few days and is it the date on which the application is made that makes it count, i.e. if you apply?

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You could have, going into January, February, March, April, thousands of cases, but the funding is only 2020; would it not have been some flexibility into 2021? It may be needed, that you may need to have some additional funding for at least 2021 to clear up the final excess of applications.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

The important thing is the ability for those members of the public who need to get the authority that they will be able to do so as long as the application is made, so in other words, that is covered. I understand exactly what you are saying. My intention is that during the course of next year when we can see how the numbers are doing, if it is quite clear that we are still well down - and with this surge it may mean more - that we will consider our options in dealing with it. It may be possibly one of the 2, that I make an application to consider further funding, but more realistically, I am going to look to try to cover it within the resources that we have got.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Perhaps that is something we will cover at some time during the year. It is more that

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Shall we ask any media listening to give you a plug and put the message out there and get people to

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: At the moment I am quite happy if it just ticks along, to be honest.

The Deputy of St. John :

My concern is - and this is like the human side to this - a mum with a Portuguese passport goes off with her 3 children, who all hold British passports, and she comes back into the U.K. and she is stopped and she is technically not eligible for entry, but she has got 3 British passport holders with her. How would

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service:

The future policy that is already been put out by the U.K., which I am working with the Minister on at the moment in terms of what the future immigration system will be post-2021 - post-2020, in fact - already incorporates the ability for European nationals to continue to travel into the Common Travel Area post that date with an identity card or a passport, so that is in place there. The ability for that person to get through the control and come home, if you like, will not be an issue. If it is notified to the Port Officer at Gatwick or Heathrow that this person does not have the status of being settled, I imagine and I am quite confident what will happen is that person will be advised they might want to regularise their immigration status once they arrive back in Jersey. I cannot foresee an issue where there is going to be a circumstance where someone is refused entry with children when they are a European national.

The Deputy of St. John :

We are not going to find ourselves in the situation in which we are separating children from their parents, no.

Acting Director, Jersey Customs and Immigration Service: Absolutely not, absolutely.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, thank you. I think that is just about everything on that. We will go on to talk about the work around domestic abuse at page 10 of the Government Plan, R.91. Do you want to do the question? How many independent domestic violence advisers are currently employed? Basically, where are we at the moment?

The Minister for Home Affairs: A good question. James.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

We have 2 who work under a manager and the purpose of the bid is to grow that number.

The Deputy of St. John :

How many additional workers are they going to need?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

From memory, it goes up to an additional 4, I think.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Another 4, I think. Three additional and 2 child and young person violence advisers.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have got a question to ask there.

The Deputy of St. John :

Are these going to be fulltime posts?

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, or full-time equivalents, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It says that they will be based in different services across the system, including and it talks about M.A.S.H. (Multi Agency Safeguarding Hub). Given the Independent Jersey Care Inquiry that is just fed back, and it was somewhat critical of the M.A.S.H. process, do you think this may change your

you are going to have look again, not in terms of the employment of these advisory groups - I think it is a very good idea and absolutely needed and totally support that - but just the way in which they may be deployed, given that there is obviously a need to look at the system, this comment about people being M.A.S.H.E.D.

The Minister for Home Affairs: It is not nice, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

not what so have you thought about that?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I thought about the fact that if there is a change to the way that the safeguarding hub operates, then there could be a change to the way that the adviser operates as well. But I think that it is very early days to see what changes there might be and what the impact would be for this proposition. But, as you say, wherever he or she is based, that they are needed. I think it is wait and see exactly where, depending on any changes that might be made.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There is a slight increase in the funding. This is the Government Plan; this is the scrutiny of the funding. There is a slight increase as time goes on and is that just simply to deal with the additional

there seemed to be quite a significant increase, from £189,000 to £239,000, so a £50,000 increase. Is that another post that comes on board in 2021? That must be another post, must it not?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

There was some profiling, Minister, if I may, around the point at which in the year they are able to join us. In a sense, we are trying to support the broader issue of a lack of funds, we are trying to smooth out some of that process there and also some of this will account for increments around pay and so on and so forth.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, yes. I can see that in the following years, just it was that jump. That makes sense if it is about when the post comes online.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Yes, I think it is staggered. From memory, I think the appointment in the first year might be onboarding around end of quarter one, so therefore you smooth salary costs, effectively, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. Okay, so it is not a full year. Yes, that makes sense, okay.

The Deputy of St. John :

Are these 4 people going to be entirely dedicated to domestic abuse in the Island or are they going to have other roles as well?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

As is absolutely the plan there, they are to support those in crisis and help bring forward victims of domestic abuse, to help with a whole host of opportunities, be it safeguarding through to prosecution and they are spread across the Government of Jersey departments in that sense.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You talked about the family and breaking down. How do you see this reducing the impact of domestic violence? What are the outcomes that you are looking for from these posts? I will say again we are very supportive of the posts, it is just to get some idea of how we can look into the future and indeed when more posts are required. If something is very successful, so you have got to have an outcome criteria for it, what do you see that is?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I think what we all want to see is a reduction in domestic violence; early intervention may help that. It is a very difficult crime to come to terms with and for people who are involved in it to come to terms with it and deal with it. What I think we are looking for is early intervention to try and prevent escalation or to prevent it happening in the first place. James.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

Yes, so this is a crime area that we feel pretty strongly is underreported in Jersey and the opportunity of deploying and introducing I.D.V.A.s (Independent Domestic Violence Advisors) to work alongside those people who are suffering in that sense can only help increase the opportunity to report and therefore likelihood of getting a conviction. It is very much in that support role space. I am not frightened of this, there may be an increase in the reporting of domestic violence as a result.

[11:15]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was just going to say that, yes.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

That then could equally be translated as a measure of success.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

If I may, also they will help the individual with their trauma, so there may not always be a prosecution or a report, but they are specialist people to provide support to vulnerable particularly women, but not all women, but women who are in a difficult situation. It will help their experience, which would have been pretty negative up until that point.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: Yes, that is right.

The Deputy of St. John :

I am sure we are all aware that domestic violence is but the tip of the iceberg, that a whole crowd of abusive things go on within relationships that eventually perhaps become violent. I know you are not the Law Officers' Department, but are we aware of any legislation being developed similar to that in Scotland to make a number of abuses within relationships offensive?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I am not sure. I do not know I have not got my head around the Scott ish model. But certainly as far as physical assaults are concerned, the law is already in place.

The Deputy of St. John : We still use the common law.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, but the law exists because whether you are hitting a family member or hitting a stranger, that is still an assault in law and can be dealt with. What we do not have and which I am now starting to work with the team and the Law Officers is on coercive and controlling behaviour. That is going to take a bit of time; we have just started that work now. But that would be specifically in a domestic relationship situation, so I do not know if that is the Scott ish model or not, but it is something that we are starting to work on.

The Deputy of St. John : The work has begun?

The Minister for Home Affairs: The work has begun.

The Deputy of St. John :

How long do you think it will take?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Difficult to say, difficult to say. Unfortunately all of these things do tend to take a lot longer than I would like them to. As the department and the policy team now go in there, I am getting very frustrated: "Where is this, where is that?" James, have you got any clues?

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police:

There is a policy pipeline, which sounds a bit of a catchphrase, but there is an awful lot of competing demands around policies, so there is a pipeline now. We will be able to get you the detail. I do not have it in front of me today, but certainly the domestic abuse legislation that the Minister has asked for and referred to today is in the policy pipeline. We will be able to come back to you and say where that sits in relation to resources, around law drafting and the other complexities around getting it through.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

The priority is not only for our department, of course, but for others as well.

The Deputy of St. John :

Are you aware that Scotland Cares are in the Island on Monday?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, I have had an invitation to that, yes.

The Deputy of St. John : You have had the invitation.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

They have been asked, and I hope that they do come across with some detail of the Scott ish law and that detail may be helpful for the Law Officers here in Jersey.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, I am sure they have access to that. I am sure that would be helpful.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

I am with them for 2 hours on Monday morning and with them on the Monday evening as well, so that will

The Deputy of St. John :

I am unfortunately unable to make the evening event.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: I will have your glass of wine, thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have covered just about everything that we were going to cover, unless there is anything that I have missed. I suppose one of the things I was going to ask you, is there anything in the Government Plan that should be there that is not, from your point of view? I ask for a reason, because this Government Plan is yearly and there could possibly be change and there could be amendments coming along. Is there anything that you think is missing that perhaps could be looked at? I will not put you on the spot because we have seen there is a question.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Shall I tell you what I mean?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I literally suddenly realised that Probation was not in there as any questions. I have done a quick search on the Government Plan to find out and all I can find quickly is Probation has got an income of £214,000 and expenditure of £2.3 million. Can you just give us an update on what that means in the Probation Service?

The Minister for Home Affairs: It is nothing to do with us.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is it not? Sorry, I thought it was. My apologies, back off.

The Minister for Home Affairs: No, no, Deputy

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was going to say that is why I was just turning around to the security officer, that we are not asking about promotion.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Deputy , I think I have made it quite clear in the States, but obviously you were not listening at the time or you were not there

The Deputy of St. John :

I listen to your every word. I apologise.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

We do believe that there should be some political oversight, there should be some democratic accountability for the Probation Service. We are working very closely with them and tremendously well. There is a review being carried out. It is starting next week, starting on Monday, to establish how there could be a closer working relationship between the management systems of the prison and the Probation Service, so

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have got my question now I was going to ask. It is because it was in a slightly different order in my folder. These are just some questions about minor capital expenditure. You have got some listed for the Ambulance, Customs and Immigration, Fire and the prison, but I notice that a lot of the things happening at the prison are from the proceeds of crime, which is an additional fund. Is there any detail on those minor capital spends? Page 199, there is some for the police on page 200. I suppose part of my job is to play devil's advocate, but the capital expenditure is £200,000 each year. It is very similar each year.

The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Not that when I was putting in budget I would put in a figure because I knew I needed to put one in. No one has ever done that obviously, but they are very similar. Is there detail on that or is that a sort of generic is there a specific wish list?

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Very much, but it is equipment that the services require. The Ambulance Service will require defibrillators, the Fire Service would require breathing apparatus; they do not come cheap. We are having 20-odd new officers, they need to be equipped, but also the equipment that they already have, the pass rate does not last for ever, it has to be replaced. Other equipment has be replaced, but that is the sort of thing we are talking about.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have just been reminded by the Scrutiny Officer, Louise, and we did not put this in because we have written to you about it. Okay, we can move on from that.

Acting Deputy Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police: You have. Yes, thank you.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Yes, speed cameras. James wants some speed cameras, so that would be good news for the Constable of St. Ouen . Did you not know?

The Deputy of St. John :

Of course the Connétable of St. John , he has asked me to speak.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think that is just about everything we wanted to cover. Is there anything you want to ask the panel? Is there anything that you think

The Deputy of St. John : Do not ask that question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No, I think it is important for transparency.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

No, nothing we would like to ask you. We really do value your input and I think it is fair to us, it gives us extra food for thought, which is very helpful. It is disappointing you did not ask me about the Fire Service's turntable ladder because somebody did a lot of research into that, but never mind.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think we have written to you about it. It is in here and I have highlighted parts of it.

The Deputy of St. John :

Have you not received our written questions?

The Minister for Home Affairs: It is in your letter, is it not?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It may be partly that none of us are specialists on aerial ladders, if I am absolutely honest about it, so I will do more research on it.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

I was not until earlier this morning.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, so for the first time ever we are finishing early. That has troubled me, as an ex-teacher who likes to stick to the bell, but we can do that. I will just say I draw this to a conclusion, so thank you very much for your time, and thank you all for attending.

Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:

Thank you.

The Minister for Home Affairs:

Thank you very much, Chair, thank you.

[11:23]