Transcript - Post-16 education - Hautlieu - 22 March 2019

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Post-16 Education

Witness: Hautlieu School

Friday, 22nd March 2019

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy T. Pointon of St. John

Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter

Witness:

Mr. N. Falle, Head Teacher, Hautlieu School

[11:00]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman):

First of all, thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for your submission. It really helps us in what we are doing. This is the next public hearing for the post-16 review. There is a document in front of you just to explain what happens in terms of the reviews and the fact that they are live, and they are streamed. There is nobody here to tell them to switch their phones off, so I will not even bother, but our phones are off. This is an opportunity really for you to expand upon your submission and to give us as much information as you can. I think it has been a really positive process of gathering the information, so that is what we want to continue to do. To start with, it is just to give you a chance to give an overview of the post-16 provision that you offer at Hautlieu. Would you like to expand more?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

So across our sixth form we cater to 500 or so students, probably just under that at the moment; it is around that figure. We offer 2 programmes, but as of September we will be offering a third, and those are A-levels, the International Baccalaureate diploma and the International Baccalaureate careers programme. I think the latter we are really quite excited about and I think it is very relevant to some of the things you are doing today, so at some point - and I am sure you will guide me when it is appropriate to do so - I would like the opportunity to say a bit more about the I.B. (International Baccalaureate) careers programme.

Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter :

We have written it down as an extra question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is fine. Yes, we will definitely do that.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We offer a very wide range of courses, many of which I am not particularly happy with the titles of academic or vocational, because I think it often can be quite disrespectful to the vocational technical sector, but in traditional language, many of our courses fit the traditional academic remit. But one of the reasons for heading towards the I.B. is the beautiful thing about that organisation is that they cannot be interfered with by politicians. Obviously I mean that without disrespect to yourselves. I am particularly talking about the U.K. (United Kingdom) Government and what has emerged through the changes Michael Gove, the former Education Secretary, introduced based on his own model of a Victorian education, believing that was appropriate. I believe A-levels are losing their validity fast. Any notion of them being the gold standard of all education systems, we are deceiving ourselves if we think that is the case.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Can you expand on that?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

A-levels are increasingly becoming narrower. My view is they force students - although schools have a responsibility not to force them in this way - to think in individual boxes, of 4 boxes that are unrelated to one another, and it makes it very difficult to see the commonality between what you are learning in biology and psychology or maths or English literature. I think that is very dangerous. That is something at the heart of the I.B., that is a key requirement. I think it misses aspects of really other important parts of citizenship and being an active system which we want our students to be, so there is no compulsory element of service within the A-level programme. Regardless of how bright you are, on the I.B., if you have not completed X amount of service to the community, you fail the whole qualification, regardless of whether you are at Oxbridge level or not. For me, that is a really quite remarkable part of that programme, because it sets out what your priorities are. What

do we want our young people to learn? Yes, we have to challenge and push them to be at the highest possible level, but the world is about much more than that as well.

Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :

Just for the sake of clarification, the I.B. is adopted by what other countries?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

It is around the world. It was established in 1962. It is highly-respected by universities around the world. One reason for that, there has been no grade inflation rate in the I.B. at all, where we are talking around 1 per cent to 0.2 per cent variance in a year and we have seen what has happened to A-levels. I am not just slamming A-levels here. They do offer and they are relevant, so I would argue that pure mathematicians or perhaps veterinarians, medical routes, the narrowness that those programmes require at university can be very well-served through A-levels. Indeed, it is what the majority of our students do, but I think there is something about the conservativism that can exist within a small Island.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask one precise question? Do they still start with 4 A-levels at home?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

That varies around the Island at the moment. What we do is we start on 4 and then you will then move to 3 in year 13, the final year, so students will gain an A.S. (Advanced Subsidiary) qualification at the end of year 12 in the subject they are not going to continue with. We are actively reviewing that right now. A number of other schools have moved to 3 and do not run the A.S. examination. I think it is a harder question for Hautlieu than others. We are the only non-fee paying provider of traditionally academic qualifications. Obviously Highlands are non-fee paying as well, but they have different types of programme. We have a responsibility to think in that way as well. Our entry requirements are different and lower than most other institutions in the Island, and there is an argument to say lower than many areas in the U.K. In some ways, we are very inclusive at 16-plus. Hautlieu has a different remit at 14-plus, but ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Do you want to carry on on this theme or shall we come back to it? I have got quite a lot of questions on A-levels and the I.B. and the differences.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, that is really useful. Do you have something specific now you want to add?

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I am asking you. I remember when my children 10 years ago left school, I felt at the time that at 14, when they were choosing their G.C.S.E.s (General Certificate of Secondary Education), which was basically a precursor to choosing their A-levels, which was then a precursor to which degree they wanted, meant that they were put into a box of that. If you link A-level/degree with career, they were put into a box of making that decision very early on in their life. Can you explain, because I am quite familiar with the I.B., how the I.B. is very, very different to that and the benefits that it will create?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

As a precursor to that, if I may, the I.B. also operates a primary years programme and a middle years programme, which will cover the G.C.S.E years.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Does it? Okay.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I have seen in a couple of jurisdictions around the world some truly remarkable what you would call an all I.B. school, where children from 5 upwards to 18 go through a programme, that part of it is ethics, internationalism, service to your community, as well as a very robust academic programme that caters to all, encourages you to think of your learning together rather than in those individual boxes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can I make a suggestion? This is for 2 people that are listening that might not be familiar with the I.B. programme, because this is the first time it has come up. Would it be possible to ask you to explain the programme, maybe the post-16 at this particular stage, because it would also be a convenient refresher for me?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It might be the time for you to talk about the careers.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Yes. So perhaps if I go through the I.B. diploma and then the I.B. careers programme.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

How it works, what is different about it.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

The I.B. diploma operates on students will take 6 subjects plus a core, which I will come to in a moment. So the 6 subjects, there are some subjects that all students will take, so you will take one type of science - so our offer is environmental systems and societies as an applied science course - physics, chemistry, biology. You will take mathematics at one level, but there are basically 3 different types to suit what type of mathematician you are. There is a type that caters to the student who has worked really hard to get to the level 4, or C in old money. You will take an English or first language course at one of 2 levels. You will take a language course at one of 2 levels and then you have a range of humanities/social sciences subjects like philosophy, psychology, history, economics et cetera. Then there is a section which caters to the arts, so we offer visual arts, essentially art, and film studies. This is wider curriculum, but in any school it is based on your staffing and your funding. So 3 of your 6 subjects you will take at higher level, so more depth, and 3 of the subjects you will take at standard level, so perhaps just under full A-level standard, whereas the high-level subjects are at a level sometimes pushing beyond. But some students - and I understand why - will feel: "But I do not want to carry on with maths anymore" or: "I do not want to do English anymore, I do not want to do a language anymore" but I often try and reverse the question with them: "Why would you not want to stop progressing in your use of literacy?" and it is so fundamental to every career you can imagine. Why would you not want to improve your numeracy at some level? It would be very different from the top mathematicians who really want to be extended, but the standard programmes on maths are very much about applications and will help in the stats you will do in biology or psychology, for example. Then there is the core with the I.B. programme, which I think is the bit that differentiates it from every other education system in the world, and the core consists of a programme called theory of knowledge, basically an epistemology course about: "How do we know things?" You might take a question, for example: "What is love?" and you will look at that as to how a poet or a novelist might represent that and compare it to a chemist, who will break that down into a set of hormonal influences or a psychologist or even a mathematician, because mathematicians talk about love and beauty in equations. I am going well beyond my level of expertise on that, so I will stop there on that. So I think that is a really remarkable course and students will do one hour a week of that. That is examined through a presentation they will give about ways of knowing or ways of learning or types of emotion. It is really fabulous. You will all be cordially invited when the next cohort produce those. I think you would see something special, what I would call real learning in there.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can I ask one tactical question? You have mentioned first language. With our diverse community nowadays, could somebody elect, if they were from Polish origin, Polish as their first language?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Yes. It is a requirement of the I.B. to be able to do that. There would be some logistical challenges.

Deputy R.J. Ward : On the staff side.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We do have a very diverse community and there might be some languages where students could do a lot of it through self-study, but in some cases you will need a first language speaker to guide them and then that person may not exist, there might not be 2 of them in that community and also the cost. You have to bring some pragmatism into it, because I cannot employ someone for 2 years for one student. But if you take areas such as Portuguese, Polish, those are all theoretically possible. We have not had those yet, but I have worked in I.B. schools in the U.K. where that has operated and there is no real barrier there to learn.

[11:15]

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Another question: if a child is set on doing something specific like engineering, medical science, does the I.B. enable the traditional A-level, the maths, physics et cetera to ...

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Yes, absolutely. So the I.B. groups, it is subjects into 6 groups. If you are heading down a particular slant - and we have students who have known they wanted to be medics or vets since 6 and their progress throughout the school system has made it clear they are also capable of those routes - you can, in group 6, which is where the arts are, you can instead elect to do an additional science or an additional humanity area, depending on what you want to go into. We have students on medical programmes at the moment and in the past who have completed the I.B., same with engineering, and that is not an issue.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Another one is there is a trend in the U.K. - and I do not know about here - to look to go to universities away from the U.K. I know Holland will be there, because it is of European origin. What about U.S. (United States) universities and other global universities?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

The U.S. universities, we will be looking at an average of around 3 per year. New Zealand is popular, Australia increasingly so. The Netherlands is the biggest uptake at the moment.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Very good value, is it not? Very good education and very good value.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Their degree is in English as well.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

The point is, it is not restrictive to elect a university anywhere in the world?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

No. We tend to find international universities have a particularly strong understanding of the I.B. The I.B. is enormous in the U.S. and the careers programme is massive there, so that is one of its selling points. British universities understand it and respect it, and I can direct you afterwards to some reports. The I.B. have commissioned an independent analyst to research university outcomes, progress and dropout rates at universities and basically finds I.B. graduates are rated extremely high and are less likely to drop out.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Are we happy to proceed? We have 20 minutes and I think it is a really important subject.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is interesting. You have not said anything about a careers programme and just a couple of minutes on that to move it forward.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

The careers programme is made up of several elements. The first part of it is something called personal and professional skills, and this does not just cater to what career you are heading for. This is about skills you develop as an individual that will allow you to succeed in the workplace. That is very special and is highly reflective about what sort of person you are, what skills you will want to demonstrate in the workplace. It is very innovative, and I do not really know of anything like it. It also involves a reflective project, which is based on some of the work experience you gain and the careers qualification you do as part of this programme and: "I encourage you to think about ethics and internationalism within your experiences of the workplace but also the community." It also involves service learning as the I.B. diploma, so you will do well over 100 hours of service community projects. It also involves language development. What is nice about that programme is you are not formally assessed at the end of that with an examination. You produce a portfolio of what you have learnt about another culture, it involves language acquisition certainly, but we know and the I.B. know that some students are really interested in language and culture, but do not want it to be an exam requirement. They just want to explore it, so that is another innovative example, but you can

take the examinations for that if you want to. It is not a compulsory element. Then there is the career-related programme element of the I.B. Career-Related Programme where you study an industry qualification. We surveyed our students and, perhaps unexpectedly, those who are going into employment at 18 and even post-university if they head to H.E. (higher education) is the finance sector, but I felt it would have been arrogant to say: "There are so many things out there so we will offer a different type of careers programme to what the students said they wanted" so we are delivering something called C.F.A.B. (Certificate in Finance, Accounting and Business), which is an industry-recognised C.F.A.B. Young people generally do not take it until they enter the finance industry post-university. We have formed a partnership with Deloitte, and they have been very kind in working with us. However, once we have run our first 2 years of that programme I hope to be able to expand to offer another version of the I.B. Career-Related Programme in another area. The areas I think that would be very relevant would be creative industries and digital industries. Indeed, there is an overlap between them. If we run this as it is anticipated, we will run it with solid numbers and successfully and I would like to expand our offer on that. It is also to do with funding, which I suspect will come up later. The final part of the careers programme is you also take 2 subjects from the diploma programme and that will say: "I have also shown capability in traditional academic route of study." You get to choose 2 from a large list, so it is a real combination. When we talked to and surveyed our students, the majority wanted a traditional academic programme, but there are a minority, an important minority, who we need to cater for who say: "I would like some elements of vocational or technical" and for me the I.B.C.P. (International Baccalaureate Career-Related Programme) is the best programme in the world.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think that is such a natural progression of questions from what you have just said.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Can I ask one more?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Go on. I have just got to remember.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

You write it down. My son was at school when I.B. was introduced at his school and he had access to do the A-levels. The question is what sort of teething problems are you envisaging with the introduction of I.B.?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

When you run your first cohort, it is always going to be low in numbers and indeed I have met and worked with schools in the U.K. and Europe that started the I.B.C.P. on 5 students, but you get momentum and people hear about how special it is. We are not going to have that problem. We are going to be, I would estimate, a 15 to 20 first cohort, which is small for a sixth form. A year group at Hautlieu is between 250 and 280 and they start in year 12. It is small, but it is about risk-taking and saying: "While it is a minority of our students who are looking for something different from our traditional offer they are really important individuals" and if you really believe in the ethics and the morality of the I.B. programme and its robustness, then let us go for it and take that risk, but it comes with a funding risk at a time when we know that Jersey schools are underfunded in comparison to U.K. schools, which is a really scandalous thing to have to say. There are risks and my governing body pressed me on that, quite rightly: "Should you be doing this?" but when they became involved in the programme then we had 100 per cent backing.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What is involved in the re-skilling of the teachers to deliver this programme? What are the challenges that you are facing?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

The I.B. has a comprehensive training programme that includes some online training rather than face-to-face training in the U.K. or Europe, so we can use that to help. The teachers involved in the first cohort are extremely excited and when you have teachers behind you in that sort of programme they are there just because they want to make a difference and they will put in the work, because they are good people who want to make that difference.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that training more pedagogical as opposed to knowledge, so it is the approach that comes from the individual; it is what they bring?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

The knowledge is there, but the I.B. is so different so it largely cuts out some of the nonsense that goes with G.C.S.E. and A-levels.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I just put it into perspective? You mentioned 20 students. Is that the entire group?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We are predicting around that figure for the first cohort of the I.B.C.P. The I.B. diploma attracts anywhere between 30 to 45. It is a major aim of the school to expand that, without forgetting the A- levels, because there are many students who enjoy them, who do wonderfully well on them, but I think this becomes more than the Hautlieu issue. It also becomes what is the education system that we provide? We cannot create our own one, because then you are putting up barriers to university entrance, because you have got to have a responsibility to those students and for the qualifications to be recognised, but you can probably guess that I have a view on the I.B. We need to have opportunities across the Island.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask, this leads us into one of the questions we are going to ask about the co-operation and the collective work between different institutions. We know that the fee-paying schools have a service level agreement where they work together and they work with other students and it does seem to be a common theme that they would like it to be extended, but there are barriers in the way of it. Looking at your careers programme and the I.B., that vocational element may be something that you may be able to work with Highlands College, for example, which has a very vocational tradition and I understand the traditional split between the 2 is unfair, I absolutely understand that. Do you think that greater co-operation, if you like, that greater link between institutions, may assist? It worries me that funding might produce risks of innovation.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I think with the fee-paying, whether that is subsidised States of Jersey schools or private schools, I would have no barrier to working with those schools, but I do also fundamentally believe in parental choice and I think parental choice and student choice seem to be very happy with the education that they receive in those schools. I would envisage that there would be some hesitation, because culture is important and certainly my view on the very large sixth form colleges that exist in the U.K., once you get beyond a certain level, they are impersonal. There is no connection. You lose the ethos that each individual school will have and the way in which you want to develop your community, so I would fear for that. Hautlieu has a way of working. I would not claim to be better than anyone else's, but Hautlieu has a particular feel and history to it. As you know, I am connected to it through my own experiences being a student and I want to continue that tradition. It can get diluted and so there has been talk in the past of an all-Island sixth form and I ultimately do not believe that would work. I do not believe that is what the fee-paying sector parents, and perhaps students, would want. I think they have a right to feel like that. With Highlands we do have a working relationship and there are some barriers, not in terms of our enthusiasm to work together. We work well with Highlands, and you probably know that we have a governing body liaison committee, which myself and Steve Lewis , the Principal of Highlands College, attend. We look to find ways of working together and we will work with their students who come through the Jersey Progression Qualification they offer at level 2 and we will interview those students on a case-by-case. The numbers are limited on that, because many of them enjoy their Highlands experience so much they will continue to the level 3 Highlands programme and all credit to Highlands for that. They are doing a really good job there. We will look at students who perhaps think: "Is it possible that I could do the sport qualification at Highland at level 3" which would be worth the equivalent of 3 A-levels, "but perhaps do one science with you?" If it fits, we will allow that to happen. There are some timetable complications though because we operate very different timetables. They operate longer into the day than we can. It is sometimes perceived that the difference in timetables is down to our Key Stage 4 offer, the 14-plus offer. That is not really the major reason for the timetable differences. The major reason is that you block subjects post-16 in very different ways, if it is a B-TEC or other level 3 qualification than how you would block A-levels or I.B. There are some real fundamental difficulties in that.

[11:30]

Certainly from my research and work with our students there are very few students who want a 50:50 programme. The majority I think are clear that the Highlands strong offer at level 3 suits them perfectly, or the Hautlieu offer, including our new innovations, fits them perfectly. Then there are that important minority that I talked about who want one adjustment and I think both Highlands and Hautlieu can cater to that important minority within our own community. I think the greater influence for us is to share best practice and to share teaching and learning initiatives. Those are areas we are looking to do and to progress more on. So I do not think the Island could cope with another sixth form. I think we would be getting a bit silly if we did that because if there was another sixth form, I do not know quite how you would be able offer a good range of subjects efficiently. The service is underfunded, but there are still examples where you would be just very inefficient. I do not think you could push it any more than the present system if you were to add to it. I think that would be a very unwise decision and I do not believe that is something that is being considered or pushed for at the moment.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What are the main challenges that you think post-16 faces? Before I do that, we will mention about T-levels from the U.K., which I have not mentioned before. They are designed, and maybe we will wait to see from the conference, to be an academic vocational offer. It is a vocational offer that is clearly to the level of A-level academia, if there is such a thing, and is designed to address that issue. It does seem to me that a lot of what you are doing in the I.B. there, the I.B.C.P., seems to be addressing similar things in terms of that experience. Do you think there is any future for T-levels here, particularly if they became strongly adopted in the U.K., and we do not know that yet?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

T-levels emerged as a response to the Wolf Report, which you will probably be aware of. It is an excellent piece of work, but as so often happens when you have some excellent policy work done and you translate it with the interests of Government and politics in the U.K. then it gets ruined in translation. My own view, and I am not an expert on the T-levels, is that what has happened there is they have sought to say: "Well, if we can make vocational technical qualifications fit an A-level format with lots of exams ..." but then I do not think that fits, because I think that is still being disrespectful to the notion of what vocational technical qualifications are. Do not put a broken system on to an excellent way of learning that is really right for many students. That is my cynicism about the T-levels. The Wolf Report said what the problem was, which was just respect these vocational technical qualifications, which are excellent for many students. You do not need to adapt them hugely to do that and so that would be my fear. I think the ideal would be something very different in that regard, because again there are not these political pressures within that programme.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is interesting. What are the big challenges that we face post-16?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I have got a view on that, so I will bring you again to the underfunding of Jersey's education system, which I would 100 per cent say is not an issue of our Education Department. I feel well-supported by our Education Department and I think they are very strong leaders and I enjoy working with them, but the budget they get is not sufficient to ensure that schools themselves ... this is as much a 5- plus issue as it is a 16-plus issue, and they are not given the adequate funding to do what we have to do. That fits into a number of areas. I would take the issue of special educational needs and in addition what we call S.E.M.H. (Social, Emotional and Mental Health) students who are being failed by the lack of provision that schools can afford to meet those students' needs. That in itself is a much wider issue about the Island's mental health provision and I know there are steps moving forward and there is a lot of work to do. I believe there is some momentum there, but on the coalface at this moment in time I am not seeing things change in terms of the work that we have to do in schools. The students who are experiencing social and mental health difficulties, the majority of their day is spent in a school, so I am not just talking about Hautlieu here, the majority of the day is spent in a school and we need to provide them with the support they need.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

That has come up before. Can you give us a little bit about what additional resources you require in order to ensure you are not failing the kids concerned and potentially concerned?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We manage it because we have some remarkable staff and they exist in all schools, who go well above and beyond. You will not find teachers at Hautlieu - and I am confident in saying this for other schools - who will say: "No, I cannot help you now. No, I have got to do this". It is just: "Yes, we can help you. Yes, we can help you" but there is a cost to the individuals involved and you need a wider scope in service.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

A cost to the teachers concerned because of the extra work involved?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

If you are working in those areas it can be traumatising and we are professionals and we are trained to deal with that, but when there are not enough of you to do that then that does come at a cost. I so respect and admire the staff that I work with, and they make it work, and if it is myself doing it and senior leaders doing it we will all drop everything else to manage that, but that can have consequences for your school improvement. There is just not enough there. A lot of the work has improved in some areas, so our relationship with C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service) is really good. C.A.M.H.S. work with us and we get good knowledge from working with them, but we know that they are also appallingly funded, and they have got gaps in recruitment, which is going beyond my remit, but I think we all know why those problems exist. I would also point to the Jersey Premium: 2 years ago there was a pilot for the Jersey Premium project, an outstanding and well-overdue initiative within the Island, but it was a pilot for Key Stage 5 because it was originally construed as a system for primary school through to 16. We were doing some really good work with the Key Stage 5 pilot, as were Highlands and any other institution that had access to that. That has had to stop because of funding pressures, and we have got issues. We were supporting students in year 11 a year before. They are in the sixth form now. There are things you can always do, because the biggest thing in terms of evidence, the biggest change that you can make to young people who have qualified for Jersey Premium is through excellence in teaching and learning, and excellent teaching and learning disproportionately benefits Jersey Premium students more than anything else, but some of the extras you will want to do in terms of one-to-one work, sometimes it is as simple as resource provision. Helping them afford a suit, it can be sometimes as simple as buying a table for them to study on at home, or I.T. (information technology) facilities and we were providing that. Then I cannot provide that anymore or I could split the limited amount I have got for our Key Stage 4 students, but then it would be argued: "No, that money was for Key Stage 4 students so you should not be taking from those students to fit Key Stage 5" so that is the challenge and that would require additional funding from the Education Department to be able to make that happen.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask you, because it has come up elsewhere, so really for the record, you talked in your submission about budgeting and the budgetary cycle. Can you give me a quick comment on that?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

A one-year budgeting cycle basically means there is no forward planning. I am paid and so therefore I want to be held to account for being efficient and welcome being challenged if I am not efficient, but to be efficient you do not think in terms of one year. We have got this initiative in teaching and learning we want to push. We want to be innovative with our curriculum, but you really need to plan that across 3 and 5 years. You do not want to be in that ridiculous situation. That is partly an issue to do with centralisation of Government and how far that goes. Pay me to do the job, to manage the budget. Let me manage the budget within sensible parameters of a 3-year programme.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The fact that Jersey's funding goes from January to January, whereas terms go from September to July, does not make that any easier, because you are mid everything.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I recognise that is a difficult problem for anyone to solve, because everything else operates in that January to December period, so that may be an unsolvable problem in terms of moving the budget to a school year, but what you can do is look at 3-year budgets as a start.

Deputy R.J. Ward :  

Okay. Is there anything else, because I realise I am asking most of the things?

The Deputy of St. Peter :

No, I have done my fair share. You take over.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have talked about special needs education, which is what we wanted to do, and we understand that as well. I want to ask you about any particular demographics on the Island that you feel you are not reaching. The Island is increasingly diverse. I think it is effectively yourselves and Highlands who are perhaps the largest provider post-16 on the Island and not fee-paying. Are there any groups you think you do not reach that you would like to do more on?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We have a diverse student population at Hautlieu, and I think that is complemented for the 16-plus by our basic entry to join the school. I think it is valid to describe it as implicit, minimum entry requirements  of  5  4 grades,  5  C grades, to  include  English  language. We do  not  ask for mathematics. We will cater for students who need to re-sit their G.C.S.E. mathematics. The English is so fundamental though for the literacy element of all courses and written communication. You have to have that, and I simply do not have any funding to be able to provide a G.C.S.E. re-sit in English. I think students who are struggling in that area will really benefit from the Highlands

programme that will include getting you at level 2 to those standards in English and mathematics, as well as learning everything else their Progression Diploma offers. I think that is a good route. Yes, some of our post-16 subjects have higher entry requirements, but if you look at the demands of A-level chemistry or physics or mathematics, the evidence is you have to have higher grades of G.C.S.E. and it would be irresponsible to let students on to those courses at a grade 4. You are doing them a disservice.

[11:45]

The Deputy of St. John :

It is interesting you are the only person responsible for a school that I could ask this question of, because the other schools do not have the capacity or experience, and that is is there any conflict between the fact that you provide for G.C.S.E. between 14 and 16 and the fact that you are concentrating on I.B. and A-levels between the 16 and 18 period?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I would argue to the contrary with that. Hautlieu is a school and it is also a school for those who are at 16-plus with us and that really has an important meaning, the phrase "school". It means we are a full community. The sixth formers, who can be role models to those younger students, is very transformative and very important. My own experience is the sixth form college sector in the U.K. I am not talking about Highlands because that is a different type of institution, but the sixth form colleges can sometimes be very anonymous, lacking that sense of community. But I think the combination of our Key Stage 4 and Key Stage 5 really helps to create that community. I think our record, not only in terms of raw grades, because of course that can be deceiving, in terms of value added at 14-plus shows what we do for the Island's community, education community. But also that wraparound services that schools can provide for the sixth form are really important. The amounts of what we give our year 11s leading up to their examinations is incredible and they just expect them, 8 weeks later, to be autonomous individuals. I really believe they need that school environment. It does not fit everyone and that is absolutely fine and that is why we have some different centres to provide for those different needs. But I think the school environment we provide really complements things.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But the question I suppose is the transfer of 14s: do you think it has an impact on the other schools where those students leave, perhaps they are more motivated?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Undoubtedly any system will have advantages and disadvantages and I recognise that. But as I said before, I really strongly believe it is student and parental choice. One of the very nice things when I meet those students who apply to Hautlieu - and one of my senior colleagues does - they often talk very positively about the school they are at, really positively, but they are looking for a slightly different environment that you will get within the nature of the cohort we will have at 14-plus and it is just the diversity of the system. It does not fit everyone and does not meet everyone. Some people will say it rips the heart out of our school, but I would say this is an opportunity, do not focus on the students who might be moving out elsewhere, focus on the students you have. But that is not really the message I am hearing these days. I think we work well with 11 to 16 schools, some of what you might call the old attitudes that existed are changing. We just offered slightly different programmes that catered to the diverse nature of our students. For me the evidence is that I believe this is open to evaluation and the work of the senior advisers from the school. If you look at our work I really think we are doing a really good job for our 16-plus students. There are differences of opinion there and I accept that.

The Deputy of St. John :

Again, this would be pursuing this issue in a pragmatic sort of way. If you were to clear the deck of 14 to 16 year-olds, would it create more space for those wanting to do A-levels in I.B. and would it create an environment in which teaching staff would be concentrating their efforts in that area?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

With regards to the teaching staff and the teaching and learning, I think it would make things worse because you have a deep understanding from our teachers who are teaching across each stage from 4 and 5 and the idea is the transition. Yes, differentiation in the classroom is a fundamental thing. We have a responsibility to meet the needs of all our students in any one classroom. Our knowledge and deep experience of sixth form allows us to do in Key Stage 4 classes for those who need accelerated learning, more deeper learning, then what we can do is we will integrate bits of our A-level or I.B. courses to give those students that differentiated experience, as well as catering to the needs of those students who are working really honestly and hard to get to the stage where they are able to progress through the sixth form. I think that is a fundamental advantage of the system. In terms of space, I do not think that is the argument we should be looking at in terms of what is best for students; that is a practical issue. We need more resources, do not get me wrong, but it is more resources for the whole community. We need more science labs, we need about 5 to 7 more classrooms. We can evidence that. But to do it that way around or maybe even have that bit more space, because we know demographics are looking to go up. The way to meet that is not have this really valuable programme of 14-plus, which is evidenced in terms of raw results, but more importantly, value-added results, that would not seem to me like good planning and tackling the real issue.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I have my favourite question and going into a different world now where, historically, you know that was a job for life and that is no longer the case and people will start to have multiple careers. What are you doing to prepare your students for this evolving world and changing world?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

We have a very robust careers guidance programme. It involves meeting students individually, talking about not just their options, because then you start talking about courses. What you are talking about is a much more fundamental issue. We acknowledge that the students, that there are so many wonderful things you can do across your lifespan, keep your options open. That is why we encourage with A-levels, as well as the I.B., where it is just easier to do it with the I.B., to look for breadth in your programmes because the job you might want between 18 and 25 might be very different to the job you want in your middle years. Then you take all the experience you have accrued from those 2 careers and the final part of your career you might want to take a completely different area. For me, that is about the importance of having breadth in your learning, as well as depth. A question, why would I want to continue with a language or English or maths post-16? It is because they are fundamental skills for all areas.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am conscious of the time. I would like to give you the opportunity that we have given everybody, to say if there were 3 wishes that you could have granted - and we are focusing on post-16 - what would they be?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Optimal funding for schools because that allows us to innovate, change, respond to changes in culture.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What do you mean by optimal? I do not know what it means.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Everyone would have like a gold-plated version of what they would want for their school but, yes, you have got to be pragmatic. If we are at the point where we are being funded below a U.K. school, which no one would in their right mind agree is adequate in the U.K., and if we are below that, then that would be enough for me to make real changes and to support our students in all sorts of ways. The second one would be to continue the work that is starting now in terms of improving the infrastructure around those who have mental health needs, but that is an issue well beyond

education, but the joined-up connectivity is really important. Thirdly, perhaps a culture within Jersey itself of why the risk-taking and innovation, whether that is in terms of the type of educational programmes we offer, how industry and education work together. Really asking some of those big questions, not just be reliant always on copying the U.K., with a caveat though of knowing we cannot just go our own way because we have a fundamental responsibility to the young people to access the U.K., particularly in the H.E. sector.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, thank you. Is there anything else you ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Would you like to ask us anything? Your question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, that is what I was going to say. I was going to just ask you that and is there anything you want to ask us?

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

Except to say you are always welcome at Hautlieu and if you would like to visit any time we would be delighted to see you. Most importantly, when we do a tour of the school I or my colleagues will not attend that tour, we leave that to the students to do. We are proud of our students, enormously proud of our students. We trust their instincts and what they say, and we would want you to talk to them as much as to us, the staff.

The Deputy of St. John :

They were certainly giving the Chief Minister a hard time the other day.

Head Teacher, Hautlieu School:

I was listening and I was very, very ... as I always am. I think across Jersey, and maybe it is a national thing, there are so many amazing things our young people do. The media will often focus on the negatives out there. So many extraordinary acts of kindness are seen at Hautlieu on a daily basis, just the way they are and their visions for the future and their ambition. I think, as a community, we can do more to celebrate our young people because all I see is the positives. Yes, you will have some hiccups every now and again and people struggling on their journey, but some of you found education difficult, myself, until I found my way. Yes, we have got to celebrate those other things that young people do and not just focus on one narrow set of criteria for measuring how they are doing.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Okay, thank you.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Thank you very much.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Thank you very much for your time. I think that will conclude it.

[11:57]