Transcript - Post-16 education - Skills Jersey - 18 March 2019

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Post-16 Education

Witness: Skills Jersey

Monday, 18th March 2019

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy T. Pointon of St. John

Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter

Witnesses:

Ms. S. Famili, Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning Ms. L. Haws, Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey

Ms. P. Shurmer, Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey

[15:30]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman):

Good afternoon. Welcome. This is the next public hearing in our post-16 review with Skills Jersey. I will just draw your attention to the piece of paper in front of you. It just talks to you about the scrutiny hearings. There is no one in the audience here so I will not say about switching off mobile phones, but it is a good idea if your mobile phone is off or put on silent through the middle of the hearing. We will briefly introduce ourselves and I will ask you to do the same. So, I am Deputy Robert Ward . I chair the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :

I am Deputy of St. John , Trevor Pointon, and I am a member of the panel.

Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter :

Rowland Huelin, St. Peter , a member of the panel.

I am Penelope Shurmer. I am Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

My name is Saboohi Famili. I am the Director of Skills. My remit covers further education, higher education and skills, and I also have within my remit the Youth Service.

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Lynne Haws, Head of Careers and Student Finance.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So we will just start off with some general questions. Can you give us a brief overview of the opportunities that Skills Jersey offers to young people who are studying post-16? So, just a brief overview would be good.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Of course. One thing to mention is that I have joined the Government of Jersey fairly recently, 3 months ago, and within my remit obviously is Skills Jersey. Overall, the reason Skills Jersey has been created has been to bring about a closer relationship between employers and providers of education and, as such, bringing about the pathways that are needed for young people to get into employment and have the education that is needed for them to flourish. Colleagues will be able to give you a little bit more detail about the various activities that are going on and Lynne will be able to talk to you about the careers service that is available and also the finance for students who go to higher education, and Penny will be able to talk about the Trackers system and the other services that there are. So, if you are happy with that, we will share the ... [Laughter]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

My next question was about Trackers, so it is not going to be forgotten, I promise. [Laughter] Yes, if you would like to ...

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

Yes, okay. So the careers advice and guidance that we offer is all age, so it is not just for schools, which is quite a popular misconception. You do not have to be unemployed, you can be employed and looking for a change, and you do not have to be residentially qualified either. So anyone coming into the Island can come and book an appointment to discuss their way forward. From a school point of view, we are in school from year 9 at option time and we help students with making the right options for them, whether that is knowing what they want to do in the future or whether that is trying

to keep it as broad as possible, so they are not closing any doors when they come to A-levels. Then we have our year 11 appointment, which is your 16-plus options, and that, again, is to look at: have you thought about where you want to go, what you want to do, what the requirements are and also what the pathways are as well? Then once you are in 6th form you can have another appointment at year 12 and year 13, and that is not to stop anyone coming into the office either. So if you have an appointment at school and think: "That was really useful" you can come back to the office and have another appointment. It is designed very much to look at that individual, so it is about that individual, their learning style, what they like doing, whether they like working in an office, whether they like working on their own, so it is very much client centred, the careers service. We also go into schools and do assemblies as well. So we will do assemblies on C.V. (curriculum vitae) writing, on interview skills, on options on pathways, all of which are aimed to try and help the students recognise their different skills that they all have as well.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that in conjunction with in-school careers advice?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

Yes, we work really closely with the schools' careers officers. So the schools' careers officers will do ... it depends which school they are at. Some of them give the careers advice and guidance, the more difficult ones who do not really know what they want to do, and some of them choose to give them ones where the pathways are quite varied to try and help them filter in, but we go into every school now.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Has that been a more recent thing that you are doing there in terms of how much you get into schools? Has it increased recently?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

Yes, it was. It has increased vastly. It was very small, not every school initially, but I am really happy to say now that we do get in. It is important because it is a completely independent, impartial service that is not tied to any one institution. Therefore ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that within the last year, 2 years? It is just the timescale we are trying to ...

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Probably about 2 years.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In the last 2 years, and that is since the advent of Skills Jersey?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: Exactly, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just to get the context, yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Given your intervention, what is the breadth of advice that you can give in relation to varying careers around?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

There is no limit, really, because if an adviser is faced with an industry or a career that they have no information about, a second appointment will be made. They will go away, research that and then go back and have that discussion with the student. There is always an onus on the student to do their own research as well because that is a really important skill to have as well for the future, be that at university or be that going forward into a career.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How many staff do you have doing that?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: We have 6 but 4 of those are part-time.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You get into every school?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Would you say you try to see every student?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: No. We cannot see every student.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: We would love to. [Laughter]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Of course, yes, but I am asking the question in terms of proportion of the ...

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

Yes, no, we cannot see every student. That would be the ideal in lots of ways, which would then free up the careers officer in schools to be able to do more with the broader population, but with the number of staff we have we cannot.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

How is it decided who you see?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

The schools come forward with numbers of students that they definitely want us to see and then they will ask if there are any other spaces. So most schools are given 2 weeks, so 2 weeks of our officers' time to go in and we will see as many students as we can within 2 weeks.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

How do the schools make their decision on who should benefit from your service?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

The schools will have their own criteria as to who would be best to have that. Every child will get a careers interview. Some may be with the school's careers officer and some will be with Skills Jersey.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just to move on to Trackers, is that a similar age group? Is that a particular age group or a particular age starting point, am I right in thinking?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

So, yes, Trackers is set up to start from 16. We have the 2 provisions, as some of you are aware anyway, but we have the Trackers foundation programme that was set up that is specifically for 16 to 18 year-olds, and that is a full-time provision, so it is not to be confused with the apprenticeships, it was just under that umbrella of offering. So the Trackers foundation programme was set up to

meet the needs of a very small number of young people that at 16 or 17 do not know what they want to go and do. They do not want to go into employment yet but Highlands or Hautlieu is not their provision of choice at that point, so we provide them a year to grow and develop and find out what they want to do. Just to cover it quickly, the year is made up of 2 days a week work experience of the individual's choice and support from a mentor, of the Trackers mentors, and that is very specific for that individual. That is quite an important part because if they knew what they wanted to do they probably would have transitioned to Highlands at 16 or 17, for example, on the vocational pathway. These young people really need time to explore what that looks like, so they may do 3 or 4 different work experience placements during their academic year. Some might do one placement in one provider and do different departments or something, so it is very specific to that young person. We then do the Achieve programme, the level 2 Achieve programme, which is offered by the Prince's Trust, and that is the personal development programme and employment skills programme. I cannot remember the exact title. There is a level 2 qualification offered by the Prince's Trust. That you may have heard of before. They do it, the younger age group, in the school so this is like the progression of the Achieve Prince's Trust programme. So they are offered that for 2 days a week and then they do ... they continue with maths and English as they need depending on the young person ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Would they do that at Highlands?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

At the moment we are using a charity, Words and Numbers Matter, purely for the flexibility of the approach for those young people, but we are also in talks with Highlands College as well, so it depends on again the scenario and the young person and what is available at the time. Then we are also doing a customer service qualification as well because bearing in mind customer service being generic across all industries, it also builds a lot of confidence skills which are really important. Also we felt that for some of these young people there is no entry requirements to get on to this provision, so we want the year to be spent gaining more qualifications that are relevant to the world of work.

The Deputy of St. John :

So if I can just crystallise this ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I had some questions there. Yes, go on.

The Deputy of St. John :

You are taking children post-16 and offering them work experiences ...

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

... and the opportunity to obtain qualifications at level 2 that would give them an opportunity to enter further education if they wish to?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Are those qualifications any use to those individuals if they wish to go straight to employment?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes, that is why they have been chosen. Those sorts of qualifications are more employability ready. Customer service was done in conjunction with the (requirements of the) world of work and chatting to our employers. Obviously, the Achieve programme ... the reason we chose to work with the youth service again is another specific reason for these young people. It means they have other support mechanisms in place for them for their future when we have gone - you know, we are only a year with those young people - and that programme is recognised in industry as a progression programme. There is only ever about 12 to 14 young people that are on this programme year on year. It was set up in 2013 I think I launched it as an alternative provision because I was working with young people who are potentially N.E.E.T. (not in education, employment or training) that did not fit the criteria. It was agreed that we needed to look at something for them.

The Deputy of St. John :

You say N.E.E.T. I am not in education, so I do not understand the terminology.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Sorry, yes, not in education, employment or training, so post-16, 17, 18, 19 that do not go on to further education or go straight into employment, have a period where they are not sure what they want to do.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

They effectively fall out of the system, whereas with supervision ...

Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, that makes ... I was going to ask you how many because that is quite important to get a context.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes, it is only a small number, but it is a very ... it really supports those individuals and they are wonderful individuals with a whole range of different reasons to come. It can be just that they are trying to find where they fit. The destinations of those individuals is always really positive. They work transition to Highlands to potentially a vocational choice then because they have had a year to grow and know what they want to do. Some will go not only on to a level 2, some will transition straight to a level 3 qualification, so it is a great pathway sort of jump, if you like, in one year. Some will go into employment. Some we work straight with Back to Work and transition them into employment work. Some will join our apprenticeship programme, so they will transition on to apprenticeship. So we have always had the positive destination is what we do it for, really. It is really important.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Sorry to be a bit ... I have: "Trackers currently supports 350 apprentices across 26 different industries."

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

At 12 to 14 a year, where has that misunderstanding come from? What else are you doing?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

So that is just the ... one of ... just the specific programme I am talking about is the 16 to 19 programme, which is a full-time provision. What that is, that is our apprenticeship programme, so that is what I will move on to and let you know.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Okay, thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I just have a little question about ... I could ask it now or I could ask it after the apprenticeship programme but probably now is the best time. I am just trying to work out the relationship with Highlands because it is unlikely that any of these students will go to Hautlieu because they would simply be too old to go to Hautlieu.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: For the foundation programme students?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, for the foundation, so if they were to complete their level 2 and do well, they would be 18.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

They would not go to Highlands simply because of age so they would have to go to ... sorry, not Highlands ...

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: To the other ... yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

They would have to go to Highlands.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Because this is a sort of separate set-up, so to speak, virtually on the same campus as Highlands, I just wondered what the relationship is and why ... not why it is necessary in a bad way, in terms of what got it started as a distinct entity.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes. So the reason ... so it is not ... yes, we work very closely with Highlands and actually ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, because I know you do as well, yes.

Yes, and a lot of the work we do throughout that year if they are looking to transition to Highlands post that programme, whether it is at 17 or 18, they may need more support to go into Highlands and it might take a bit longer, so we do lots of visits to Highlands. But like I say, we are only talking a very small number of young people and it is young person driven, so young person led, in terms of the reason I said they already ... they all make choices, as you know, from school in terms of post- 16 and what they want, they put Highlands or Hautlieu or whatever down, and for some of these young people they did not want either of those. So instead of them going nowhere, it was felt that they needed to drive something, and it was in collaboration with young people going back a few years now that we piloted it. To be fair, it was a pilot to start with.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

To some extent it is a safety net, really.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: It is.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Not in any sort of patronising way but in terms of just making sure there is another provision there.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: There is.

[15:45]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Which will transition into Highlands because of the nature of Hautlieu as a post-16 school, whereas Highlands is a college.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes, and a vocational offering, and the other ...

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Sorry, and bringing the provision at Highlands, which I am sure you have heard the work that they do in terms of their progression programme that they have, bringing the functionalities closer together to make sure that we remove any duplication and there is a single point of contact for people to have clarity of what is available to them. So from schools, when they get their career advice when they are in a position that they have arrived at the age of 16 and they have choices,

we are bringing everything together so there is that clarity of who is providing what and for what purpose, focusing the resources to be as individualised as possible to help those who are disadvantaged. So this is a specific programme that you are talking about, but on Trackers, which is the apprenticeship programme, it is when they go and join an apprentice programme with support that is provided by the team, which is the numbers that you have mentioned. So you can talk about the numbers and how that works.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just for context, age for the Trackers apprenticeship programme, that is probably post-19, is it?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

So it is on offer from 16. Very few will join at 16. I suppose that is the other thing for us to always be clear: we are independent, as Lynne was saying, in advice. Obviously, we work very closely with young people and individuals and if they have an inkling of where they want to go, Highlands would be often the most preferred option for young people that are looking at a vocational or technical offering, especially from an academic if that ... the wide range of levels that they can offer as well at Highlands. I suppose the only one point, because of the timing of it in terms of history going back, the other reason that programme was developed was when Advance to Work obviously moved over to Social Security at that time and, therefore, the provision changed just slightly. So, therefore, when the provision of Advance to Work was under the Education umbrella, we did many more courses and programmes specific for that individual. As it transitioned to Social Security, they do still offer work training programmes, but it was not the same as before. So I think there was a bit of a gap as well at that point and hence that was the other reason that programme developed. It has a bit of history to it, I think.

The Deputy of St. John :

Do you interact with the Advance to Work programme?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes. So again ... and for transition as well. So we transition off, say, the foundation programme if those young people want to go into the world of work. A lot will already have secured paid work before they even leave us, but during that May time of the academic year would be transitioning, like we would at 16, 17, 18, et cetera.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can we just look a little more closely at these individuals that use the service? Am I getting the impression that ... well, I am getting the impression that this is a group of people who have not engaged with ...

Not necessarily.

The Deputy of St. John : Not necessarily?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

No. So a real wide mix of young people and I think that is important to keep that clear because it is not for any set group of young people as a description of young people. It is open to all young people who potentially do not have any academic qualifications when they join us. There can be a whole host of reasons why that might be, so there is something on offer for them then.

The Deputy of St. John :

I suppose there is another question then: how many of the people that come on to your programme are people that have not engaged?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes, so there are some. There will be some. I am mindful that obviously it is a public forum and I just want to ensure that our young people do not get discredited. There is a whole range of young people that really thrive on this programme, but there are some young people that have ... in the school system maybe have not engaged on full-time curriculums previously to this programme. They get to post-16 and obviously recognise at times once they have some support in a different way that they would like to then find skills that they did not have in the school system and they engage, and they have been really positive and thrived.

The Deputy of St. John :

Do you have any measure of how successful you have been with those people? In other words, the numbers arriving and the numbers going away, engaging with ...?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes. So every individual will have a positive destination where we mean that they are going into further education, employment or training. So they are moving somewhere positive. They are not nowhere, if you like. So they are all ... 100 per cent of them are moving to positive destinations.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask about the apprenticeship scheme?

The Deputy of St. John :

Still on Trackers, one question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was just going to ask ... so the apprenticeships, these people are in employment?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that paid employment?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

All of them, so they have an income?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes. So all the Trackers apprenticeship ... the Trackers apprenticeship provision, yes, they do all need to be in paid work. Mentors, our mentor team that are the support mechanism around apprenticeships, in the ... so if we have got students coming out at 16, 17 or 18 potentially at that age, they may not yet have secured paid work when they apply because they are applying around March/April time and so they are still in their education provision, their full-time education provision. So we do a summer programme whereby it is quite an intensive looking for work programme with them that we offer if they are successful and they are the right character and they have the attributes for apprenticeships. Then we will work with them through the summer and they all move into paid work, which is brilliant, and it is very successful. Then from the September when they secure their apprenticeship they will be in paid employment alongside their training, and that training can be ... obviously the majority of our young people are at Highlands, about 71 per cent are at Highlands doing their apprenticeship, but we also work with a range of different providers for our other variety of apprenticeships, for the ones and twos of the employment world.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I just want to get to the bottom of the ... so the apprenticeships are linked to the actual employment itself. Do we have enough employers on the Island willing to be involved in that apprenticeship? I suppose it is the question on relationship with employers which I may have just trodden on your toes, forgive me for that.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

I was not, I was going to ask something else which is more relevant.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Okay.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

We engage with around about 900 employers on-Island. This is hot off the press as we were coming here. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. Peter : That is my question number 3.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Yes, could we have a look. I think it would be helpful for us to answer your questions about numbers, so you get ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can we get ... yes, these are the 12 to 14 a year that come through. With the best will in the world, 100 per cent success rate is not going to happen every year. What are the safeguards in place for those that do not adopt this programme as successfully as you would like?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Is that for the foundation programme, our younger one, the full-time programme? We have just been talking about ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Yes, the 12 to 14 kids a year. These are the ones I am worried about.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes. So because of the mechanism ... yes, the safety net is a really good way of putting it. Because the Trackers staff, the mentoring that is with them, they have a Trackers mentor, so they work one to one with these young people. They have a caseload of around 25 to 30 young people, whether that is across the mainstream traditional apprenticeship route or the foundation programme, but also, like I was saying to you about the Youth Service as well, we work with the Youth Service, so they are also working with youth workers as well, and we involve other agencies as and when necessary. So for the very, very few young people that have other barriers going on for themselves, then we work in a multiagency approach as we would with any young person in any establishment.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

You are flagging them up as potentially might not be as successful as some of the others?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Yes, and normally it is about lots of other outside situations that are causing them that. The majority of the young people have been very impressive, have engaged in the programme. They may be more engaged in the customer service component than they are in another part of it or they might want their work experience, like a whole range of young people. So when I say 100 per cent success, it is the 100 per cent going to positive destinations. So they will transition, whether that is to Advance to Work, to another adviser to go and then do the work to look for that job because they are wanting now to transition into the world of work and they are really much more ready than they would have been a year before, or they are going on to Highlands and they will transition to a full- time provision further on, or the apprenticeship.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

So if they move into an apprenticeship or they move into work, then where does your job stop? Because if they have not engaged at one stage they are probably the sort of kids that are less likely to engage going forward, even though it is getting better with the work you are doing. Where does your work stop? When do you leave them in the world of work on their own devices, unsupervised, effectively?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

I guess in a way to explain the support that is available, we have under the Trackers programme if they are on an apprenticeship programme we will support them throughout their studies until they finish their apprenticeship, get their qualifications and that is where the support will stop. If they are moving to a full-time programme at Highlands, our job will stop there because the Highlands provision would support the pastoral care that is relevant to them. If they go back to work, our relevant support will stop and that would be passed on to colleagues within C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) team to make sure that they are supported to join and get an employment that is suitable to them. That does not necessarily mean that we will wash our hands of them. We find that they will come back to us because of the experience that they have had accessing the service from a very early age, let us say from careers advice that they receive all the way to if they have been involved in any other interactions with the service that there is. But our support will stop when we know that they are in good hands and they can be continuing.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

The last one on this: are there any that go from school, not engaging in school, but do not come to you that could fall through that net there?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

There are and that is part of the work that I have taken on in the N.E.E.T. strategy, those that are not in employment, education or training, and we are looking to bring the realisation of how many of our young people are potentially in a position that might become N.E.E.T. when they get to 16 so we do not address the issue when it is too late. My view and many educationalists' views is that you would know if a student at an earlier age ... probably around year 5 you would know  what characteristics they have, are they going to be able to be successful in their education or not. There are around about 100 young people that are flagged as being categorised as in need or at risk of becoming N.E.E.T. and we would like to bring about this support package that will go around those children far earlier than when they get to the age of 18 or 16, which is where we will get involved. So, yes, there are some that we would ... they would engage, and it is not that they would drop into a gap that nobody knows about them. There are some that we need to sort of make sure that we know where they are but ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Those processes are tight? Define the process that makes sure they do not drop through the net if you ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask ... there may be something relevant there. In Jersey, because the school-leaving age is 16, theoretically there is no net to drop through.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

It can be at any age. The U.K. (United Kingdom) has gone to the age of 18 and after 18 you do not know where they are. Here we are at the age of 16. Personal professional view should be review that and have it as a later age, I believe, yes. But in terms of process, is it tight enough? Are we absolutely 100 per cent knowing where the young people are? Hand on heart, no. Are we doing something about it? A hundred per cent yes, and that process ... I have fairly recently, having been here only for 3 months, over the last month or so I have picked up the N.E.E.T. strategy and I am working in a multiagency situation where we would create a much tighter provision. We are now in a position that we have the data that would enable us to make decisions far more earlier that would prevent these young people becoming N.E.E.T.s, and our data and knowing where students are, if they are in truancy what do we do with them ... so the work of the department in terms of collaboration, my role - being skills, post-16, everything that is outside schools - completely links with the work that my colleague Sean O'Regan does within the schools. So that sort of joined-up thinking and joined-up collaboration is there. We also have ... as you know, in the children and young people skills and education department we have the children provision now and the directorate there where we have the support that is provided with young people from an early help point of view. So, overall, the systems and processes are under review, as you know, in terms of the Government reform agenda and people like myself who have joined the Government recently are working with those who have been in the position in the past and we are working from root and branch up so we have processes and systems in place that will enable us to bring about what is needed to make sure our young people are not becoming N.E.E.T.s.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was going to just pick up something from question 2 because we seem to have gone a little bit off- piste, as they say.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

We have not, it has been really, really relevant questions.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It was just something about the challenges that you face. What are the main challenges that you face trying to address this issue? Because we talk a lot on this Island about skills and about the skill shortage and there are some statistics that say we have probably the least trained workforce over many jurisdictions at the same time that there is a skills shortage. So what challenges do you face in addressing them, which it seems to me you are addressing a particular part of it?

[16:00]

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

I think what we did not cover ... there is a lot more that Skills Jersey does and one of the key elements of deciding about skills and the skills strategy is about engaging with employers and having a better understanding of their needs and also knowing that they do not sometimes know what they need and they need to be told in terms of trends for the future of what is coming on and how they need to develop and improve the way that they operate. Without being too sort of harsh about this, some might go out of business if they do not get their heads above the day to day activities and so on. So, Skills Jersey runs a very strong programme of engaging with employers. We have employer forums. Since I have arrived on the Island, I have started a provision of reviewing the interactions that we have with employers and the purpose of that project is to bring clarity to the employers, so they do not think: "Who do I go to if I need ..." whatever they need. So you can imagine within just my provision of work that I am involved with, we have Highlands College that interacts with

employers, we have Skills Jersey that interacts with employers, we have the Youth Service that interacts with employers. Within the services we have an area that would go to the employers because they want work placements. We have another area that goes to employers that want something different. So bringing that clarity of who we are and what we can offer is part of that project, and that would enable us to create clear pathways for every single industry as to what skill sets are needed for individuals who will go in that industry to be able to then have a career pathway within that industry and also clearly identify that if you are entering an industry that does not necessarily mean for the rest of your life you have to remain in that industry. What are the transferable skills that you can have from one industry to another and to another? So that piece of work is being carried out at this moment in time but nonetheless it is a challenge.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

How do you imagine that being delivered? What format do you imagine it being delivered and how do you envisage getting that message out? Because joined-up thinking in this Island has been sadly lacking for rather a long time, so it is refreshing to hear.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

I think one key area that I am working on is making sure that we pilot a process and make sure that it works and then roll it out. The construction industry is very keen to work with us on that front and they would like to be the pilot where we would create ... and in terms of medium we are looking at it to be an online medium where you would look at sort of level 1 qualification in construction, what skill set are you going to get, and from that if you imagine it to be like a tree, that is you would be able to branch out and do various sections of the construction industry and then it would tell you if you want to sort of move on to such and such an employment what are your career opportunities, what are your income generation opportunities and so on, what skill set do you need to have, who would provide them for you, and then if you want to then change and go to somewhere else it will tell you what your transferable skills are. So, really ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

So the construction industry, of course, are very keen and very enthusiastic because at present they are overheating like mad. But industries like agriculture and hospitality and the growing industries of tech, these are industries that are increasingly finding people difficult to find.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

There are 5 key industries that are on our heat map, if you like: I.T. (information technology), as you know, and we work very closely with Digital Jersey making sure that there is that cohesion of not duplicating and making sure that we work together. So there is digital technology in one sense. We have the retail industry, hospitality industry, agricultural industry and obviously the construction, so those are the 5 that are away from the main one, which is finance, that we are working with. But what I did not want to do is to start and say we are going to do this for all of them without sort of having a pilot that we are moving on, and the pilot is going to be ready by the second quarter. So we would then test and trial it and see where we go from there. In terms of going back to your question about what challenges we face, it is bringing about that clarity from employers of what they need and making sure that then we would work with other departments within the Government. For example, we have ... in C.L.S. we will have businesses who will go to C.L.S. for a licensing arrangement. We need to have that data to say, okay, what sort of jobs do you have licences issued for so we can plan and have the talent management and people management and skill management for it to be as such that within a certain period we would create the job and the workforce of the future from within the Island.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The qualifications that go with that, because there is such a range of qualifications, how does the Jersey progression qualification fit in with that because that is a very big qualification out at Highlands and the vast majority I would imagine of your link is with Highlands. I will ask you about the others in a moment and whether there is wider links with the other schools, but in terms of that progression qualification how does that fit in?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

The progression qualification as far as I know about it, because it is a new qualification, is very much specific around Jersey and Jersey's needs. I think Highlands have done a great job in accrediting something with one of the largest accredited bodies in the U.K. to have this qualification accredited where it would do a similar type of work that Penny described at a lower level like level 1 for a level 2 support for students who would for whatever reason disengage from schools. They do not have the ability to engage and go into a level 3 qualification. I do not know if you are aware of these levels, they all mean something different to various people, but a level 3 is equivalent to an A-level. It would provide the same pathway to go to university or to do other work as an A-level qualification does. So this progression programme would enable and would bridge a gap where those individuals who come from schools and do not have the right level of skillset to engage with a level 3 programme, they will be able to do that. So they practically would do a level 3 programme. Rather than do it in 2 years they would do it in 3 years. So in that sense that is a great thing for Jersey. How successful it is, where we are with it, should we do things differently, it is too early for me to say as yet because I have just arrived but ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can you say that it would fit in with the skills requirement where there is a deficit? I am thinking about the care sector, for example. There have been a lot of reports about the shortages in the care sector, for example, which is a really difficult sector to recruit in, partly because of money. It is not that well paid.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Sure. Again, it depends what skills they gain. Would they be able to enter the world of work after the progression programme? Yes, for sure they can. What sort of jobs are available to them at that point? It needs to be explored. But overall I think the approach that we have in terms of education and qualifications needs to be put on its head and to some extent it needs to be about employers telling us what skills there are that they are short of and then for us to plan a package of training and qualifications that would get them that. I know you are interested in T-levels. We have had a conversation about it. That sort of whole approach of what the U.K. is ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Not now. Do not get him on T-levels. [Laughter] We only have another 22 minutes.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: That is absolutely fine.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Let us talk about T-levels. The reason we mention them is because, again, it is that sea of qualifications that are coming through and may well be significant. There may be - again, may be, there may be a lot of things happen in the U.K. - a move towards those qualifications and where they fit in. I think it leads us into the other question I had in terms of your communication with other schools and colleges, so the other providers. There is J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls), Vic, De La Salle, there is Hautlieu. Do you have links with them?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: All of them, yes.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Yes, all of them.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Certainly we do and again in terms of the work that I am doing in designing and delivering a tertiary strategy that is joined up, we have a working group that includes all 4 of the 11 to 18 years Government-funded schools as well as the ... I do not know what you call Vic and J.C.G., semi Government-funded schools.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: Fee paying.

Deputy R.J. Ward : State assisted.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Also the 2 non-funded schools, they are all involved because we would like to have a tertiary education that is all-encompassing and inclusive. The risk for an Island the size that we are, we should be working far more collaboratively together, people knowing who is offering what. You would know this hopefully, that between Vic and J.C.G., De La Salle and Beaulieu there is this consortium agenda, so why are Highlands and Hautlieu not ...

Deputy R.J. Ward : It has been noted.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Bringing them together. I think in a sense for an Island this size we need to work far more collaboratively together, and this is not for the lack of will from colleagues. We just need to give them an opportunity to have trust in the system and hopefully we would be able to bring that. But there is a huge amount of work being carried out and, again, more recently with my arrival colleagues have been extremely helpful in giving me the context that is needed for me to be able to drive it.

The Deputy of St. John :

I am very impressed at your knowledge of the ... [Laughter]

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: I cannot mispronounce them. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. John :

... disjointed educational system.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

I was just going to add where we were talking about working with employers, I think just to add, the working groups that ... we touched on the forums but Skills Jersey have really worked with all the industry bodies, so we mentioned them before, and Stuart often leads on those with employers and industry to look at the skills agenda for their industry, usually aligned to the skills strategy as well, and they develop action plans that they work to to ensure that we are working right from primary- age children all the way through and including investing in our adult workforce, not just in the transition period. You will know things like Zest has just ... with Heat. Zest is out there with hospitality and that is a great collaboration between a number of industries coming together. I think that is really key, like Saboohi was saying. Skills Jersey's role is almost this facilitative role between employers and education and the wider community and our public and our young people and the third sector. We work with the third sector as well and we are developing those relationships more and more. So the working groups are already industry led. They are industry established but we really support those, and Highlands are also present on those groups to ensure that we are looking at the future skills and the pathway agenda, but also all the lovely skills show and the higher education fairs and all these other things that are supported for our Island.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There has been just a question I think ... well, there are 2 questions, one on funding, because one of the issues we have noted, that has been noted, is that the pupil premium goes up to 16 and not beyond.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Yes, that is another disjointed thing we need to sort out because the fact is the needs of the young people ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can you just come and write our report for us? [Laughter]

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

We can. I would be delighted. The main thing is the needs of the young people does not stop because you have passed a certain age group. There is an assumption that if you are at Hautlieu or if you are at De La Salle or if you are at Beaulieu you do not need that support because you probably are not in need of the support that you previously had, so that is a wrong assumption and we need to put that right. Obviously, there is a cost associated with all of this and my job is to advise the Government on what is right and what decisions you are making and what are the consequences of it. It is not my job to find the money for it, but it is my job to make sure that the money we have is spent to the best of its ability. So definitely there needs to be a review of the support that is provided, how it is provided and also making sure that we would consider what support is needed for those who are post-16 and that is a different kettle of fish when they go to university. Because again another part we did not talk about, which Skills Jersey is fully involved with, is the financing of the higher education. You can imagine how important it is for us to encourage our young people to go abroad, not just stay in Jersey and get their higher education qualification, although there is a place for that as well, but for them when they leave the Island some of the problems that they would face would need to be supported through a provision of support that is available.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

We have picked up on that and we worked out that the sea between Jersey and England is a big barrier to getting home and can leave them isolated.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: Yes, absolutely, it can.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

What have you learnt about that and what - I think it is a really important thing - do you think you can do? I know you are only 3 months here but what ideas have you got?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: Oh, I have plenty. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Well, just a couple of minutes if it is ... I am thinking of time ...

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: A couple of minutes, okay.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

... on what you can do to help these children fulfil their academic potential when they leave these shores.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Yes. Firstly, there is a review of higher education funding that is being carried out. I think what we currently have is, as fantastic as it is, are we going to be able to afford to continue with it? There is a question mark. I am not saying anything more than that because the review is ongoing. But what support can we provide them? Firstly, we do have, for any student that is in a normal school situation, there will be a record of need.

[16:15]

So I am an engineer by my education. I am terribly dyslexic, so I have had that record of need from when I was in school carrying with me all the way through to my education, and if I needed an exam to be extended in terms of time because I needed more time to be able to read the text that was in front of me, that was provided for me. So all students in Jersey would have that sort of record of need moving with them. What we do not have here is at post-16 that is not as consistently applied, so some will have, some will not. When they go to university, the universities in the U.K., if you were a student in the U.K., they would provide that assessment for you and that would be a free part of you going to that university. Us being Jersey, they push that cost back to us and we have to make those assessments in terms of the needs that there are and then we would put a package of support around them through the student finance that we have in order to make sure that students will receive the support that they need. We need to make sure people know about it. We need to make sure that students will access it. We need to make sure universities would provide as much of that support that is possible. But it is not just about: "I need an extra hour of support through my learning," it is when I am homesick, and I cannot ...

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Mental health agenda and so on.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

This is the rest of it, what is important for ...

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

It is and there are things we can do with technology; there are things that we can do in terms of making that support and mentoring and coaching that is available to them. Do we do it at this moment in time? No. Do I have ideas of how that should be put in place? A hundred per cent, yes.

The Deputy of St. Peter : Can you ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just to go back, just as you mentioned that, sorry ...

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: You need to give this guy a chance to speak. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Thank you, thank you, you are my new best friend.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

He has too many chances, do not encourage him, please.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: Poor chap wants to come in. Let him come in.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is just there are points that you picked up on that we did have a question planned, you see ...

The Deputy of St. Peter :

So did I. We have gone totally off-piste; it has been really interesting.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. In terms of the need up until 18, because we have such a range of people coming in from different areas, from apprenticeships and Trackers, from industry, some are at Highlands, and a lot of them have needs in exams, for example, are they all covered? Are they all funded and covered or is there an issue there?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

I do not have the exact knowledge of how it works outside Highlands. In Highlands they would assess students as they go in and they would be given the support that is needed. Is it funded? I have a big issue with the way that the funding is because an institution like Highlands - that is in my opinion, professional not personal - it is the most inclusive institution that we have. You can go to Highlands regardless of your starting point and you will get the support and education that you need. What we fund Highlands is for 16 to 18 year-olds and then we ask Highlands to deliver apprenticeships; we ask Highlands to deliver higher education, we ask Highlands to deliver adult education, we ask Highlands to do progression, we ask Highlands to do a lot. They get people from absolutely no English to all the way to higher education degrees and master's degrees. Although part of that is all funded, the funding that is 16 to 18 usually subsidises a lot of those other activities, including some of the support that they would provide. So I am not, and I haven't really got to the end of the budget and the budget has just been released for this financial year and there is this discrepancy between academic year and financial year where you have half of it and so on. So, in a sense, is it funded or not? Yes, there is some funding available. Is it sufficient or not? If you ask anybody they would say that they could do with more. But the key point here is that, within the education as a whole, and not just Highlands, going all the way from primary all the way to higher education, we have the budget that we have. I think around about £100 million is the education part and about £30 million-odd is the other part that has joined the new Education Department. We need to make sure that we focus and concentrate of the money to be spent at the right time at the right place and for us to have the breadth of support and services that is needed for the young people.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can I go back to my standard comment every single time is the majority of kids have no idea what they want to do. The odd one comes and says: "I want to be a doctor or a vet" but very few of them are vocationally driven at an early stage. One of the challenges over here is helping our young to choose the career of their choice, but that starts at that level with the university and the university course of their particular choice. Obviously in England it is very easy, mum and dad get in the car, go around, see lots of universities. It is not as easy here; it is not as practical. What ideas do you have to give these kids far better advice, awareness of the choices that they are making and what their lives are going to be like at different universities, different courses, et cetera?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

I think there are 2 points to that response. First is give them an opportunity to understand what career pathways they have from a much earlier age, so this is not just when they get to 18 and then you take them around universities and tell them what is what. It is take the education that is outside the academic context like the design, engineer, construct programme that Skills Jersey is taking to schools where they would understand about the construction industry. There are other programmes that we run. But it is taking vocational, taking alternative pathways that students can try, and we already do that through a linked programme with Highlands where students will go to try out a vocational provision. So that is stage one, and we need to do more of that. But also when it comes to higher education obviously we currently have the higher education fair, which is this week, and with that we will have universities coming to the Island, representation from various universities on- Island. We have whoever provides higher education on-Island available to answer questions and so on, and again there are more and more universities, because they are competing with one another, have virtual reality systems that these kids would be able to tap into. Even my own nephew, when he wanted to decide where he wanted to go, he had this thing on his face and was looking around. You could see what the life is using technology and so on. It is not the replacement for going in and having a feel for it, but there are things that we should be able to do in terms of enabling young people to make the right choice for themselves.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Often these decisions are made through an inspirational moment from a member of a family or friend or school and a lot of these can be down to work experience. My experience and work experience is not here, it is when my kids were in the U.K. It was very, very mixed and sometimes you went along for 2 weeks and all you did was make coffee and play on the Internet and some of them worked very well. How do you follow up on any of these work placements that are taking place to provide it has been a positive experience? A positive experience can be: "It is not for me because of ..." So how do you follow that one up?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

This is very interesting because I have just submitted my request for data and some of the data that I have requested are longitudinal studies to say, okay, the advice that we provided for someone or work experience that we provided for someone at the age of school, can we fast-forward 20 years down the line and see where they are now and did that make any difference or not? So some of these things we do not have the data to be able to confidently say how things are, but this morning I was given a tour by some of the students at Highlands College, taking me around and showing me, and every classroom that I went in I asked about where they came from in terms of their feeding schools. It was fascinating to see it is from across all the schools, even De La Salle and Beaulieu and Hautlieu and all the rest. Some of them have come to Highlands because they have been coming to that link programme that I alluded to earlier. A young gentleman today on a motor vehicle programme has been to Highlands when he was 12 and he is now on his last year of getting his qualification. So there are stories and there is evidence that that is happening. Do I have facts that I can put in front of you and say: "20 per cent of them will follow in this format"? At this moment in time we do not have that data.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

The question is more are you following up each individual?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

So, sorry, could I just ... what we started to look at with Trident work experience was the ability for every child to have the opportunity for a pre-meet before the work experience, what to expect in terms of work, and then a post-meet, did it meet your expectation, what did you do, and in that post- meet that is something we can do with the employer to say: "This student did not have a brilliant experience because all they did was make coffee" or it may be that this student thought it was fantastic because they saw the wide breadth of what they did. But it is just some schools are very good at doing that, some schools do not have the time, so it is Skills Jersey being able to fill in.

The Deputy of St. Peter :

Can you do a mid-meet phone call to say: "How is it going, good, bad?"

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

There is a visit during the work experience and we also gather feedback from the student and the employer after Trident as well. We do gather, exactly like you said, did they find it enjoyable, is this something they would like to do? Even if it is a no it can be a positive, now they know they can rule that out. So we do get data from employers and students at the end of Trident but we obviously all have the work shadowing programmes when they are a bit older as well, so they are more informed at that age as to whether it is for them or not.

The Deputy of St. John :

We are coming close to the end and I have a story relevant to the last question. My son went on Trident with the local field squadron. He got to drive one of these landing craft in St. Aubin's Bay. Hopefully next year he is going to be joining the Navy. There was no direct relationship with that because he is currently teaching kids in China to speak English, but he did enjoy the military life and he is going to go into the military.

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: That is lovely.

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: That is really good.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I want to ask everybody that we have spoken to at the end of this, if you had 3 wishes that you would have at Skills Jersey, what would they be?

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey: Is that 3 each?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No. It is funny; I get asked that all the time. We get about 9 from Highlands, so there would have been 27 wishes. So 3 things that you think: "If I could do this now, this is what we would do"?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

There is a lot that we can do and is within our powers; I am not going to say any of those because we just need to get on and do them. For me, one of the key wishes that I have is expediting some of those things that we have to be doing and one of the key ones for me is having an inclusive and a provision that is linked up and is understood across the board and we do not have variations of the provision with duplication that is unnecessary. So for me it is a cohesive, inclusive education system that is understood by all and the purpose of it is not to just get a qualification, it is to get our young people to become educated, skilled individuals who are happy and fulfilled and would be able to contribute positively to the society. So that is my wish. That is my ambition. That is what I will work towards, but I would like that to be expedited so it is not 20 years we are talking about, it is that within the next 5 years we will have a curriculum that everybody understands what they need to do to get where and how, what support they have available, what training is available, if they have any needs how they can access it, and so on. So that is my wish. If you have a magic wand I will buy it off you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is that one or 2 at the end?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey: It is hard to say. That was like a big wish.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is at least one and a bit.

Head of Careers and Student Finance, Skills Jersey:

I suppose from my point of view I have recently been working with some families who have young people who have some special educational needs of some description, so I suppose I would like to see more facilities on-Island for those more vulnerable, because we want to give them the skills to lead happy, fulfilled and valuable lives within Jersey.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That was very succinct and to the point.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: What are you trying to say?

Head of Enterprise Skill Development, Skills Jersey:

Apart from Saboohi taking some of mine, I would like to not see any young person N.E.E.T., as we talked about earlier, but otherwise if we are looking at it in a bigger skills agenda, I would like to see a long-term economic plan that we then have the skills strategy underpinning it, the economic plan would underpin a skills strategy, but we do need to ensure then that would help us target our resources so that we are meeting the future needs of the Island as opposed to a reactive approach. At skills shows we really try to be proactive and we are out with industry, we are out finding out things, but we need a more cohesive sort of system that does that and can be more responsive to the ever-changing landscape and, therefore, our 16 to 18, 16 to 19, whatever we are focusing on, it is more clear about what is available and what is the future going to look like down the line. Their 10 years is going to be very different to our past 10 years.

[16:30]

It is certainly a message we have. Are there any questions you have? We have asked you a lot of things. Is there anything that you want to ask the panel in terms of what we are doing?

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

From my point of view, is there clarity of who does what from your point of view in terms of education? My role, as I understand it, is a new role and the focus of it is pretty much a future-focused provision and focus. Obviously, the future cannot happen without the past but what I would like to get an understanding, and I am making my way around meeting politicians as and when, it is what are your aspirations for education on this Island and are you comfortable that we have the right resources and the right people in the right places to do what we need to do?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of this panel and the review into post-16, one of the first things that we will do and have done is to look at the current provision, and without giving too much away that will be the first thing in the report that we produce. To give an opinion at the moment, we do not want to pre-empt the report because otherwise the report itself does not have the power that we want it to have with recommendations and so on. But we are certainly aware of the range of what is happening and the diversity - I think is the pragmatic word - of provision. We are aware also of the concerns that have come across and there are certainly themes that we have, both with submissions ... and what we are very proud of as well is that we have engaged with around 2,000 young people in the survey and we have met students, so we have taken those voices. We have not just talked about doing it, we have done it, so that is important to us. So we are gathering an enormous amount of ... the word is "evidence" but that sounds wrong, of information, of data. It does sound very legal. We hope that we can do exactly that, where are we, where could we be and what do we have to do to get there, and then to try to keep it within the scope of post-16 first. It will touch on this in another area, so that is where we are.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: When is your report due?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We are hoping - I could give you a date but I do not want to just in case we do not make it - mid to late April when it should be done.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning: That is very good, fantastic.

That has always been the target date from the beginning but there has been an enormous amount come in, which is good. With everything that we have done, we are smack-bang on time just about. So thank you very much for your time as well and your input, it is really useful, and it is listened to. So that is great, thank you very much.

Group Director Young People, Further Education, Skills and Learning:

Very good. Thank you so much for the opportunity, we really appreciate it. Thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We will now finish our broadcast.

[16:32]