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Education and Home Affairs Panel Post-16 Review
Witness: Jersey Finance
Friday, 22nd March 2019
Panel:
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy T. Pointon of St. John
Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter
Witnesses:
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance
[13.01]
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman):
Are we all ready to go? First of all, good afternoon. Thank you very much for your time and for your submission as well. We are here as a public hearing in the Post-16 Review. I will ask you to introduce yourselves and we will do the same in a second. There is a little sheet of paper there that gives you some information with regards to the hearings. For those people in the public gallery, if I could ask you to put your phones off, that would be great. I will start. I am Deputy Robert Ward and I chair the Panel that is undertaking this piece of scrutiny.
Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter : I am Deputy Rowland Huelin.
Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :
I am Deputy Trevor Pointon of St. John , a Member of the Panel.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
I am Joe Moynihan, I am Chief Executive Officer, recently appointed, at Jersey Finance, but I first came to Jersey in 1993.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I am Amy Bryant, I am the Deputy Chief Executive of Jersey Finance and I am born and educated and have worked in Jersey all my life.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
My name is Claire Lyons and I am the Head of Marketing at Jersey Finance.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you very much. Okay, so this is an opportunity really to elaborate on your submission and to go through some areas, it is not meant as a grilling, it is really meant as a discussion. They have been very, very useful for us so far so we are sure this will be equally as useful. I will start off by just asking a simple question. How does the current post-16 education on offer in Jersey support the needs of local businesses, in particular the finance sector in your view?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
We thought we might just give you an idea of our perception of what our industry tells us in relation to the skills that they need from newly employed people.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Yes, absolutely. In terms of what we think our industry are looking for in terms of post-16 education, predominantly we would see that as being A levels coming through. The finance industry directly employs people into their workforce from school, usually at age 18 having taken A levels or equivalent. We tend to think that would be what the industry would see as a minimum standard. We are hearing from the industry that they are quite open as to what those A levels might look like as long as individuals and students can demonstrate ability to learn. There is a focus on S.T.E.M. (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) and also one of the things that we hear very strongly coming through from the industry is a desire for people coming through to have good soft skills as well.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
When you say A level, do you mean specifically A level or any Level 3 qualification?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Any Level 3. So the I.B. (International Baccalaureate) qualification would be something that would be attractive as well.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think we will probably talk about that later. Sorry, did you have some more to say?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: No, that was probably all I had at this point.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Okay, so A level qualifications and beyond?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: Yes, absolutely.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
How do you work with post-16 providers, just some examples, some of the successes and, more importantly, some of the challenges that you face. I think it is good to know about successes, do not get me wrong, because we want to build on them but the challenges that you are facing engaging in that sector of post-16 education is really important to this review and one of the key issues really.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
We have almost 170 member firms who pay us a subscription every year to go out on their behalf and promote the Jersey International Finance Centre. Obviously one of the elements is looking closer to home at the education and supply and demand, trying to attract and retain young people into their firms. So we have a really good relationship with Skills Jersey, Highlands and the outlying private schools for the sixth form schools education. What we do is we run, as Jersey Finance, on behalf of the industry, a few successful schemes ourselves and some initiatives to try and make that condition and that relationship with those institutions and try and engage with the young people to see that the finance industry should not be seen as a default industry but a really good, engaging forward thinking destination of choice for their career journey.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Have any of the projects been particularly successful? We have heard about a few of them from the different head teachers and principals and so on.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
You have probably heard about our Life in Finance scheme so this is a scheme that is aimed at the sixth form schools and also Highlands College and we have been running that for about 6 or 7 years now. Very simply put, it is where we go out to our member firms and connect them with the sixth form schools and colleges. They come together in a scenario where they build a relationship, get to know each other and then they are offered one to 2 week placements during the summer where they can literally just get a taste of finance. So the feedback we have had we usually get I think this year we have 40 students from across the schools going into 34 member firms in the summer time. The feedback we have from the students and the testimonials from members say that it is really worthwhile and just short little snippets and insight into the world of finance, but also a lot of internships and summer work programmes and future graduate opportunities are given to those students.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Could you define a career in finance, and how varied is it?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I think historically the perception is and it is one thing that we get feedback on from the students is that is boring, it is maths, it is suits and grey offices, et cetera, so we are working very hard to try and change that perception with the students and the schools to say that we are not just maths and accountancy and the standard historical educational roles of accountancy, law, banking, et cetera, there is as whole wealth of jobs that sit underneath those key areas in marketing, I.T. (information technology), events, digital, et cetera. So our main role is to try and change that perception and make them realise it was much more of a wider scope, that they can use their transferable skills or various different post-16 qualifications to enter into it.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
How successful are you being in getting that message out there?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I think we are doing quite a good job. Over the past year and a half, 2 years, we have tried to cement the relationships and get to know the right people in the right establishments and build our relationship with Skills Jersey. Stuart Penn in particular is a great advocate for us, as he is with all the other sectors, in trying to help us make those connections and for the students and the teachers to understand the needs between the 2.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Can I turn it the other way around, what are the skills you are looking for over and above just straight exam results?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
As Joe mentioned earlier, the feedback we are receiving from our members in particular - and we run a bi-annual employment and growth survey - and one of the key things that came out was that, yes, that we can get the standard A levels and qualifications in but we need the employability factor. I think this is probably something you may have heard across other sectors where they need those interpersonal skills, communication skills, even a basic know-how in the area of I.T. and technology. So it is a standard level of education but nowadays it is much more a rounded individual that we are looking for.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We always see changes in sectors, they evolve and they change. Are you seeing a more accelerated change in finance in the nature of work? It is the question about, you know, we do not know what jobs will exist in 10 years. I am sure we said that 10 years ago as well and probably 10 years before that. But are you seeing that being I just sense from what we have talked about that has been accelerated and there is an even quicker turnaround of the nature of the different types of jobs that might link into those skills which are transferable.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I know, so when we deployed the strategic review, the Jersey jurisdictional review, the key findings that come out there are obviously key things like growth markets, Brexit, but one of the main ones was the digital strategy and the digital skills gap which I am sure you have touched on with Digital Jersey. We worked very closely with them again to identify where the future of jobs are going and how we can adapt and make our members aware and tune into the future needs of the industry.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
I think it is a very good point because anybody who has been in the industry for any length of time will know that the job they signed up for on day one is completely different. It is an evolving industry and one of the things that we did not touch on is the expectation that people coming into our industry are on a life-long learning path and most of the professional firms here would expect and support school leavers coming in to develop and get professional qualifications. They invest a huge amount of time and money in developing both the academic side, the professional side but also on the soft skills side as well. The position, I guess, is that if you have got the raw material and the right attitude, you know, there are lots of opportunities and just because you start in one area at whatever age, there are plenty of opportunities to branch into other areas. But you are quite right, the job and roles change all the time.
The Deputy of St. John :
I suppose this is crucial to the comparison with other industries in the Island, we are wondering whether you have any difficulty recruiting into the finance industry?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Just touching on the employment and growth survey we did recently where we surveyed 75 member firms and they were saying that they were very optimistic for the future and they that 96 per cent of the roles they fill will be on Island so judging from that reflection there is challenges, but they feel pretty confident.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
That is trainee roles as opposed to roles in general?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
We ask in our employment and growth survey about whether roles that are likely to come in over the next 3 years are likely to be filled by people already on the Island and the historic trend has been that it is 80, 85 up to the most recent number in the 90s (percent), the expectation that those roles will be filled from on Island. But I think to your question, the finance industry is growing and there are number of vacancies and there are a number of firms that are looking to recruit. I think there is an ongoing challenge around ensuring that we get candidates for those roles but it is a good challenge to have. We are lucky that we have growth.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
It is probably just worth making the point, as somebody who has operated in all 3 areas in terms of the industry, if you are running a business here and you have a vacancy the preference for lots and lots of reasons is to employ the talent locally, because bringing somebody into the Island carries a huge amount of risk and carries a lot of extra cost. The general view of most commercial businesses will be we want to recruit on Island and if we have to go off Island it is because we cannot find the skills that we need. But it is not the first choice by any means because of the cost and because of the huge risk. Because if you can imagine moving somebody in, say, with a family and the family does not settle - it happens all the time - so it is not the first call that you would go off Island. The first call always is to try and recruit locally.
The Deputy of St. John :
At the baseline, is the education system producing, apart from the academic qualifications, those people who you describe that have the emotional skills, the soft skills? It is producing those people?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Some of the feedback we have had from our members in the past is that those are the weaker areas, perhaps, in that if a firm is looking to take on individuals they want them not only to be academically strong but they want them to have the cultural awareness, the awareness of how to operate in a business environment, the communication skills, the ability to be articulate and some of those soft skills are what they invest heavily in training people up on. But I think if we look at it was in 2017, there were 100 school leavers taken directly into the industry, which is a good number and then that training onwards there was a lot of investment that goes into that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think that is actually your question.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
There are a couple of questions there. I see here that 3,000 young Islanders found their first job in finance over the past 10 years, what would be interesting to know is how many of those 3,000 are still in finance. What is the stickability of the career?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: We do not have the statistics
The Deputy of St. Peter :
No, if you could come back, that would be very interesting.
[13:15]
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
I would make the point though that if you look at because this session was coming up, I have been speaking to quite a lot of C.E.O.s (Chief Executive Officers) as part of my own induction in the job, if you like, and I have asked questions about the quality of the school leavers that they take in. Generally, the feedback you get is that they expect to have to invest. They do not necessarily anticipate somebody coming in would be completely clued in to the world of work because it is completely different. They do invest heavily in and their objective is to keep as many because you do not invest a huge amount of time and effort without hoping that you are going to keep most of those people. We are not getting a lot of feedback that says we are no longer going to invest all of this because they all just leave. I think there is a
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is important because they are young people who are not the finished article by any means and you could ask whether anyone ever becomes a finished article, I suppose, but that is important. That investment in developing those skills which perhaps we do not see as many of in the schools, although there are some qualifications that are quite interesting, like the I.B. Every single provider has talked about the things that go on in addition to A level qualifications, and the wraparound, so it is really interesting.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Sorry, the reason I am asking the question is we are getting near the end of this exercise, so we are starting to see the trends. There is a major trend on every single submission from the post-16 schools where the focus of the future career is very much down to the finance, the bigger picture of finance, including accountancy and everything else. That is a judgment I have made, by the way; that is not pointing the finger. Therefore, I am concerned that there may be a bit of a sausage match in that they are taking people out of school and going into finance without real consideration from the individuals and that is why the stickability is quite important to me, to find out if they are going in for the right reasons. Obviously, you are going to get a fallout, okay, nothing can be perfect but it is the scale of that, will that not be very interesting in understanding?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Yes, if I may as well, if you were to take on an A level student at 18 and they were to come into the industry, I worked previously at P.w.C. ( Price waterhouseCoopers) and we took people at pre- graduate level at 18 and they came into the organisation. They would perhaps undertake an accountancy qualification and perhaps by 21 and 22 they were already qualified. They might want to travel for a little bit, they might want to go and get some work experience off the Island; that is no bad thing if it translates to being advocates for the Island around the world. Then we also have the trend of perhaps people who were educated in Jersey going off to study away, staying away for a period of years, getting experience, working perhaps in London or elsewhere in the U.K. (United Kingdom) but then returning to the Island, bringing those skills that are transferrable from their previous roles back to the Island and having a continued and flourishing career here.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
To be totally supported, absolutely. You talked about the recruitment of A levels, how many are coming back after university, returning to the Island after university, learning some soft skills, not that you learn a lot in university and returning to the Island and becoming graduates? How many of those are coming in and how successful is that because it is very important in a post-16 education?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
For 2017 there were 150 graduates that came back to the Island and took up a role in financial services.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
A hundred came from school.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
A hundred from school, that is right. The industry is very broad, they will be coming into a wide variety of different roles, perhaps going into one of the big accountancy firms to take accountancy training, perhaps going into an administration firm and learning to be a chartered secretary or going into a bank graduate position; there are lots and lots of different types of opportunities.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
What percentage is that, do you think? Going a bit off-piste there, I am afraid, but it is quite interesting, collectively the graduates coming out of sixth form, how many will eventually, albeit directly out school or after university, come into the Jersey finance sector, do you think? It is a relevant question, I think
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, yes, it is, just to get data; that is an interesting question
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Is it possible to check on that? I do not know, I mean if you could but do not bust a gut. If it is a quick search, then that is fine but do not spend hours on it.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am kind of interested in what range of graduates you get, are you finding you get in particular because of the questions, some of them we have answered, we have had quite a few hearings today, so there is a lot going through my mind in terms of what there is this balance between education because it is the right thing to do and if you educate yourself as a human being you have got those skills that you are talking about, which I think you are agreeing with. I wonder where those graduates come from, are they ranging from chemistry to history to art? I can imagine there is quite a range of graduates as well.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I think there absolutely are. I think firms will be looking for individuals who can demonstrate the ability to learn, the willingness to learn, the right attitude and a core competency of academic ability. As a personal example, I did natural science at university and went and trained to be an accountant. I think the sort of degree-level education, the subject matter is not as relevant as ensuring that the right attitude is there and the right academic attainment is there.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
What is the process, if you are taking somebody in, to ensure that you are matching their skills to one of the very varied jobs you have or do you do like, say, a graduate programme and this big industry will sort of march you around 3 months in a department and see where you are most suited, for the sake of argument?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I think it varies per firm and it is very much about member firms. Some examples we have, Aztec is very active engaging with the schools and Skills Jersey, et cetera, as far as trying to get these young people to consider them for their future careers. They will do, for example, an audition day, there is one coming up in a couple of weeks' time where they bring the young people in and just sort of get to know them and sort of check with them if there is any concerns with what they can match skills wise, et cetera. Other ones, when they take on a graduate they will have a whole sort of embedded programme to train them as they go type of thing, so it depends on the member firm that we have on that sort of approach if it is ongoing training and I think that is a big thing. A lot of the ones we know here, especially the big 4 accountancy firms, they will have the students coming in, being trained on the job but also to have that sort of forward journey for further professional qualifications, so training on the job as well.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
This is a different question to yourselves than it is to the heads of organisations that are directly related to education but the main challenges that you see for post-16 education on the Island in meeting the needs, I suppose in this case meeting the needs of the finance sector, what challenges do you think there are there?
The Deputy of St. John :
I think we can weave into that as well, what barriers to do you see for young people in relation to post-16 education?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
One of the things we have not touched on significantly yet is digital skills and we, as Claire has mentioned, work very closely with Digital Jersey and support their skills agenda. One of the things that we know that is upcoming is a plan to bring in more digital skills training on the Island. We think that is as crucial as it is for the finance sector as it is for a more generic digital sector. Challenges and barriers for processing would be to embed that really, I think, as one of the key strands.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Do you think that from your knowledge there are any barriers in terms of the ability to provide the sort of education that is needed? Do you think young people come along who just simply have not had access to the things that they needed to before they come to you or do you think it is simply that they have done something different?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: I think just from
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We are just trying to identify some areas.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Yes, just sort of joining the links together, as I say, we work quite closely with Skills Jersey and I know they do a lot of work in trying to obviously look at all the sectors, including finance, to see what the students are doing and how they are matched to the jobs there, so there is the supply and demand if there is a match up. For us as well we are trying to work closely with our members to identify across all the sectors, so, as I say, not just the standard jobs in law, accountancy, banking, et cetera but all the sub-sectors and sort of sub-jobs about what skills they think are needed now and in the future to then work with Highlands and Skills Jersey and education forums to make sure that those students have the right match up, so there is no disconnect between the demand and the supply really.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
It might just be worth mentioning that we have recently put together an education group within Jersey Finance, which Claire leads, which brings together our member firms and some of the key stakeholders from an education perspective. We are looking at some of those key issues. I don't know whether you want to
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Yes, so Digital Jersey are on the forum, as are Skills Jersey, Highlands. We have a recruitment representative who deals quite closely with the students in helping and mentoring them and then we have 15 of our member firms, again, across sector. What we tried to do last year was to keep this ongoing change of perception with the young people about, is it an attractive industry? It is not a default industry, it is somewhere where you can really engage and share your skills in a variety of jobs. This year we are hoping to hold something very similar to the Zest Fest hospitality event in a couple of weeks' time where we go to the public and we have some sort of forum where we can say
we can cater for obviously career-switchers and grads and undergrads and parents just to get knowledge. But we also have some sort of education hub, hopefully at Highlands, where we can engage with the schools, even the younger ones in primary to embed and implant those seeds that it is a consideration, the finance industry is a consideration for the future. It is trying to make our industry more engaging, raise that awareness with them that there are so many different multilayers of jobs there. When we do our Life and Finance programme that is a lot of the testimony that we get back from the students who go into the member firms, they say: "I just was not aware of the variety of roles" and they change their mindset as far as what is available. We do do a lot and we are trying to do more this year to make the connections between educational establishments, the students and our member firms.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I just throw something in while I remember because it is that contact? I have asked everybody
The Deputy of St. Peter : Your attention span
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have asked everybody about a new qualification in the U.K. which are T levels and you may have heard of them but it is going to be very difficult to provide T levels on the Island but one area where it might be is something based in the finance sector because there is a requirement for specific work experience. But when you say about linking into educational establishments, it strikes me that is exactly why they have been set up in the not exactly, there are all sorts of reasons why they were set up. But one of the specifics is to get that link between industry and technical qualifications and that perhaps force a split with academia as well because it obviously runs throughout. Have you seen anything on those?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I have seen, I think, maybe in one of the biggest hearings is a reference to T levels but I am not too sure of what they are and the success of them in the U.K. but
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I do not think the U.K. are yet, to be quite frank.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I think, generally, it is almost like a common-sense approach of making those connections from the student to the teachers through to the industries and the educational establishments to make sure
that, again, not supply and demand that would not the students do not have a false expectation of what they are going into. If they come to our industry they are well versed on what is required.
The Deputy of St. John :
You mentioned Highlands a few times and I am just wondering whether you felt that the offer that Highlands make to the finance industry is currently in keeping with the needs of the finance industry and make sure that those are satisfactory.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
We have a representative within our working group and we have only just had our first session last month. But Mary Hubert is a very active, very driven and passionate careers adviser, who we have got a good relationship with. We are trying to, again, just do that investigative exercise. What is the need? Are those courses suitable, et cetera? I know she works quite closely with some of our member firms in trying to shape the curriculum. From my knowledge that I have at the minute, I think they are doing quite an effective job but, as she would say herself, there is room for improvement to enhance that.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I am writing them down or I will forget, so that is good. Often kids, well the slightly immature ones can be very bright and slip through the net at around 16, that sort of thing, who may not fulfil their potential of A levels. I know that Skills Jersey has a programme for them, I cannot remember what the programme is called, if somebody could help me
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance: N.E.E.T, is it?
The Deputy of St. Peter : Sorry?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance: N.E.E.T, no?
The Deputy of St. Peter : Something like
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, N.E.E.T is not an educational training, I think it is called
What role is there to ensure that you find kids who might not have the right qualifications but could find a home so they will be of greater value within the industry are sought out and given that opportunity?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Are you referring to Trackers?
The Deputy of St. Peter : Trackers, Trackers, thank you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I know that we used to make notes
The Deputy of St. Peter : Yes, well my notes are
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The apprenticeship programme as well that they run.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Yes, it is that sort of come back to it if you want.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Yes, we might take that one away, if that is all right and we can come back to that.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
No, when I say come back to it I say in 10 minutes.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: Yes, yes.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
That would be fine, if you could because it is really important, that there are so many categories we are working with.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I ask about flexibility? One of the things we were going to ask and, in a way, we have sort of got into the context of talking to schools and colleges and talking to yourselves we have got to get that balance because that sounds like a grilling about education for everyone, which is not what we intend to do.
[13:30]
Do you think there is enough flexibility for students in their post-16 studies before they come to you, you said at A level or a Level 3 equivalent? Do you think, as an industry, you would benefit from a greater flexibility at that age, i.e. not determine that we will do 3 A levels in this and then you will go either to university or into finance? Do you think that can be limiting at times and you may get a better quality of candidate, is the word, if there is more flexibility, i.e. B.T.E.C. (Business and Technology Education Council) at an A level or the I.B. is a very interesting qualification that we were talking through earlier, for example?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I think our membership would probably say that they would look at any level through qualification and they would look at whether the applicant would be a suitable person to fill a vacancy; if that was A levels or if it was an equivalent, I do not think that would make a difference. I think they would assess based on the person they saw in front of them and their ongoing commitment.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is very interesting, so it is the personal qualities as much as anything, yes.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I think the last one has been answered anyway, so
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, okay, is there anything else?
The Deputy of St. Peter : Shall we get on to mine?
Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, of course.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
It is my little bugbear, not my little bugbear, one of my great interests, well that is an exaggeration as well. Ask about intelligence robotics, I remember when I was on the radio when I was campaigning and they said that it is quite likely within the foreseeable future, reasonably foreseeable future, about 10 or 15 years that in excess of 50 per cent to 70 per cent of jobs in the traditional finance sector, as we know today, will be replaced by robotics and artificial intelligence and Matthew Price said: "I can think of 49 good applications for that." I did not get the joke at the time; it was a bit embarrassing. However, what is your view for the preparation of that because there will be wholesale changes within the employment opportunities, not just here but on a global basis if this technology takes off, as it is already starting to do?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Maybe as somebody who has been in the industry longer than anybody else, I might take that one. I think that
The Deputy of St. Peter : This is a crystal ball one.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Yes, it is a crystal ball but if you look at financial services, as a sector, over the last 25 years there has been a huge investment in technology. You talked earlier on about jobs changing and job roles changing and that has been part of the impact. I think from a Jersey perspective if you talk to our industry members there is significant investment in technology at all levels in different firms. Where I would see the opportunity is that the investment in technology should help to improve the productivity in the sector but it would also create capacity in the sector, so our members will take on more work, more business without necessarily increasing their head count. Save that, you are quite right, we do not know where it is all going to finish up but I certainly would not be getting into panic mode about the impact in the short to medium term. Because technology will make us more efficient but a couple of the key drivers to our industry is the expertise and the service quality. The expertise, to a large extent, relies on the people and in our industry the service quality, to a large extent, relies on the people. The sort of soft skills that Amy was talking about at the start are really, really important in our sector. I think that the automation, yes, will happen. It will certainly make us more productive as a sector and will give us capacity to take on additional work without necessarily having any of the corresponding increasing head count.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Yes, I buy that because if it is a repeatable process it can be automated and the complexity of that repeatable process is just being the restriction of technology today, very complex questions. Clearly, people are going to have to write the automation for those repeatable processes, so you have got to have a full understanding of a business to do that. Let us say that is one out of 10 people will be doing that because I made that one up; it is not a statistic. The other side of it is the skills you require to take it on business is very difficult and different to the skills you require to administer business and it is the administration side that will change fundamentally. The question is bringing people in, are you starting to prepare those kind of new to the sector for the roles that are going to always be there, human interaction roles fundamentally; that is the question, are you preparing for that with the people that are coming in?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Again, it is quite a general question but, as an industry, somebody coming in as an administrator to the industry today, regardless of automation, is probably likely to switch roles as they advance. I think the key point about their skills and their attitude remain important. Amy touched on the requirement for digital skills, so I think that the people coming into our industry now and that whole generation is a lot more technically literate certainly than we were. I think that they will cope with the digital transformation, if you like, probably a lot better than previous generations. I think that from our point of view having the right skills, having the right attitude means that they have already got the tools that we can, as an industry, mould to meet the requirements of the industry over a period of time. Because I think if we go back to Deputy Ward 's earlier question about the different roles and progression within the sector, it is very much about having the right people with the right attitude. There are very few people in our sector that are doing the job today that they did when they started.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I just ask something? In your submission at the end and the looking ahead part, you mentioned that: "They are a recognition of the financial support flows going off the Island." But you say about: "Catering for those who want to stay on Island to have career paths here is equally important and that shortage of local options could have a detrimental effect on Jersey's employment market." Do you have any specific ideas of what might be needed there in terms of what needs to be addressed on Island at that level, which may be getting in the way of where you want to go in terms of employment in the future; any specifics? Are you talking about an on-Island university? Are you talking about perhaps help with businesses who want to have day release to do a particular qualification?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I think it is about ensuring that there is a range of options to suit the broad range of students that we will have. There will always be some students who want to study abroad, they want to go to the U.K. to university, they are happy to leave the Island. There will be some who would prefer to perhaps go straight into a job on the Island and not have any debt at the end of their sort of 3 years, as it were, and have a great qualification. There will be some who will want to do training but they will want to do it here in Jersey and they might go to Highlands, they might continue at school to do A levels or they might look at other options. I think it is just about ensuring that there is a range of education options that cater for the different aspirations the students might have.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You mentioned strong S.T.E.M. competencies, is that because of the way of thinking that comes from science, technology, maths and engineering?
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
Yes, it just shows the basic academic qualifications and ability is there to build on. Financial services, as we have talked about, there is a wide range of what will be required but for the more sort of traditional financial services S.T.E.M. is incredibly important. But, of course, there are lots of roles in that range, our roles, there are marketing roles where a different blend of A levels or Level 3 qualifications are equally attractive.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You also mentioned languages because I know there has been real pressure on schools with languages. Are you starting to see the paucity of language acquisition? For somebody who has just taken up French again, I know how difficult it is. I will not even attempt any of it.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
By the way, we might be able to speak it in the Assembly but we do not need to respond to the Jérriaise
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
It is more an acknowledgement that Jersey is an international finance centre and it is now the case that more than half of the business that comes to the Island comes from outside of the traditional markets of the U.K. and the E.U. (European Union); cultural affinity, languages are incredibly important in that environment. Students with strong skill sets in those areas are attractive to our member firms as employees.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Yes. I think with double entities they may have those and that is one thing we say with our students, that one of the options is that you may have the opportunity to travel or move to the head office in Hong Kong or somewhere, Paris, so those options are there. It is to make sure they are aware that that should be taken into consideration.
That would be interesting
The Deputy of St. John :
I am intrigued that subjects like philosophy, history, art and so on and so forth might not be as attractive to the industry as the science subjects and
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Potentially, on the core book standard, things of accountancy law, those sort of things may require working towards a professional qualification and the entry level they may require good numeracy, et cetera. But because of this wide range of jobs that we have, even in Jersey Finance a whole range of people with varying qualifications, from people with degrees in finance itself or French or philosophy or art or journalism and it is to make sure that, potentially, with those sort of core jobs with accountancy law, yes, they would identify they need something, potentially, more particular and bespoke as far as the end results. But on a wider scheme of things there are so many transferrable skills and degree levels that we have in various subjects, that it does not really impact on the credibility of the candidate.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, anything else? I was going to give the
The Deputy of St. John :
I will be faking one now. I am going to sit quiet until 2 o'clock, I mean I can ask questions and you will all get very bored.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I was going to ask you the question I have asked everybody, which is if there are 3 wishes, 3 things that you would want to see changed and it is not 3 each to say that because otherwise
The Deputy of St. John :
You can because we have got 3 people here.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, so what would they be and we are trying to stay within the context of the post-16 education provision obviously but if you need to go wider, then please do, but if there are 3 things that you would want to change, what would your 3 be? This was an interesting question, it is like an interview now.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
For me it probably would be the perception of the industry, so we mentioned before about the fact that maybe historically it is been looked upon as the default industry that you go to, it is just a matter of course and not really sort of the opportunities and the qualifications and the interactions and connections that people can make in the industry as a worthwhile career option. It is probably working on that thing about changing perceptions, even sometimes with career teachers, parents, children themselves and their career providers.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
It is interesting, I was not going to ask this because I thought you had already covered it but I did just say, what would you say to the young to persuade them to choose a career in the finance industry in Jersey? I think that is your perception
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance: Yes, finance is fun.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Yes, okay, that is a catchphrase
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance: Yes, we did create
The Deputy of St. Peter :
All 4 people listening to this will get that.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Yes, we created a careers video where we took 15 students from across the schools last year and asked them for their perceptions of the industry. As we thought, boring, maths, grey, secretive, dull, sort of key things coming up. Then we showed them some footage about them and getting some information about the reality, there were careers for young people, who engage with people your age, the opportunities, et cetera and then got the reaction afterwards. It was really lovely to hear from that forum that they did not think beyond what maybe their parents had told them or just this perception that it was just something that was not really important or necessarily a consideration.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You have got 2 more wishes left.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I can go next, I think it would be that the education system delivers rounded individuals and I think a lot of the time it is what is happening. But it is that balance of not just academic qualifications coming through and the strength of those but also that it is delivering rounded individuals who have the soft skills required for a career in any industry including financial services. I think resilience and adaptability to change are going to be incredibly important going forward.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
We have had quite a lot of the headmasters who said they are doing that to a greater or lesser degree. A lot of the extra-curriculum activities they do over and above the teaching styles are involved in that. What would you say so that they could do better and I think they are doing a great job, from what we have learned in preparing these kids for this is, ultimately, what we are doing. What would you say to them? What would you ask them to do better or external courses, what would you suggest would bring a better individual to you? That was a lot of questions, was it not?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
These are turning into interview questions. I said to you at the beginning it is not a grilling and it does seem to be turning into
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I thought that was a value-add question
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I will say it is the first time we have heard the word "resilience used", which I think is really interesting because I would say that is certainly something that schools are very aware of but it is the first time we have talked about that, which is resilience to be in challenging environments and when things do not necessarily go your way, that is quite important.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
It is certainly important, is it not? Sorry, sorry, back to you.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
I was just going to say that I do not know if I can fully answer your question but I do know that a lot of our member firms are very willing to give time to go into the education system, to go into the schools and share. They do that currently, which is fantastic and share information about interview techniques, share information about what a career in finance looks like. It would be the openness of the schools to continue with that. I know they have got a very packed curriculum as it is, which is one of the challenges.
Yes, I was just going to say that might be an obstacle.
[13:45]
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
That is why we are considering doing this hub sort of scenario maybe at Highlands later towards the end of the year where we will totally join up with the schools, see what they want us to do, what they require, what the children do not know and need to know. We will pick some sort of time and forum where we can all meet in a fun environment to bring awareness about the industry.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
We have heard there is change from teaching people to pass an exam is yesterday's news and there is very much a trend for the preparation of broadening lives, broadening horizons and preparing people for the future is the trend going forward, so I cannot believe you will get resistance to that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
It is interesting that perhaps the stereotype I had in my mind of the finance industry is you would perhaps be the opposite to that in terms of let us just get the academic qualifications and then come in but it is obviously not the case and that is very interesting that it seems to be in line with perhaps the problems that have been in schools and there is too much of that single pathway stuff going on, so that is a very interesting one and
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Yes, I think a lot of the schools are, as you say, really working hard on the mentoring programmes, the employability factors, the life skills that they need, so that is really encouraging. But as well is the fact that we have the millennials and that new outlook they have and the work done and the greater global picture and being a global citizen. There are a lot of changes now with young people, as far as what they consider to be their values and their ethics really, so it is a whole picture.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You have got one left, so finish with you.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Okay. The last one that I have and I do not know if it is a trend or I have a big issue about attitude. I think that the good employee for me or the good prospect is somebody who approaches everything with the right attitude. I think that it is difficult to teach perhaps but certainly something in terms of
preparing young people for the real world. I think attitude is really important, a positive attitude. I know it sounds tough, nobody owes you a living, you have to have the right approach; you have to have the right attitude. Certainly in our industry I think that the successful people are the people that approach things with the right attitude; they are willing to learn, they are willing to develop themselves and they are willing to work and I think huge issues around attitude.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
The word that is creeping in is entitlement.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Yes, I did not want to say that.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Yes, I do not know, I should not have either but I hear exactly where you are coming from. I think I would like to see them all getting Saturday jobs and lifting potatoes that I used to do, but that is not a conversation.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Before we get to it and that may also be a by-product of the very focused education system in terms of do you think it may be as well, it is quite an interesting one, if we tell our young people you do these exams, you pass those and this will happen, whereas the reality is that we have narrowed their curriculum and we have taken that element away? I think we are starting to see it again now and that move away back to, yes, exams are just one part of that, I think is what you are saying perhaps in a softer way but a more pragmatic - I do not know what the word is - way. But, yes, that is quite an interesting point to make.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
We could turn it into a philosophical debate shared by
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, there is nothing wrong with that.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
But I think it links back to the question that you asked us to think about earlier, which was what we are doing to capture those who perhaps underperform. Having given that some thought and hearing some of the comments, I think it comes back to attitude. If people who perhaps have not performed so well academically as they might have wished to do, I think if they can demonstrate that either they are going and they are independently learning, perhaps they have taken on the ability to do an
extra course, perhaps they are at Highlands and Claire's team liaise with Highlands on the Life in Finance scheme/initiative, if they went through that process and engaged with our member firms, if they attended one of their assessment or audition days, those sorts of things all show that right attitude. I think that goes a long way to making up for perhaps the slight deficit on the academic side.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Yes, that is a really good point because, again, it is for people to understand this whole concept of transferrable skills. In my commercial life I often employ people directly from hotels because they might not have the academic qualification but they have a fantastic customer service attitude and experience and they know how to deal with people and that is really, really important. There is a route into the industries a lot of the time, not directly through the normal routes.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: Also, there is a route the other way as well.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Yes, absolutely.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance:
You were talking earlier about, are students just being geared up for a career in finance? There are a lot of people who start their career in financial services and then they continue with that but in the other sectors; hotels, hospitality, tourism, agriculture, accountants are always needed in those businesses as well. It is a 2-way sort of ecosystem.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Interesting, that theme of perhaps those who did not do academically so well have still got a future; it came through from our talk with Digital Jersey as well. It is interesting that the digital part of your sector is so key, so there is a sort of really hopeful area there, that it is wider than just this academic achievement, which is very interesting for what we are looking at.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
Without sort of wanting to make too much of a pitch for our sector, I mean the amount of jobs that are dependent on our industry is very significant. That is creating opportunities for those people who do not want to move into financial services across all of the other sectors, which I think is very important and sometimes it is overlooked.
One thing that has not been mentioned at all, it has just dawned on me because that is how slow I am, is I used to find when working with sales or even being in the recruitment process for sales, there was a key difference. One of the key areas of likely success was having played sport to a reasonably high level, both team sports and individual sports, like golf and tennis. Also, similarly, you can put it into arts and the dramatics and things like that. Anybody that has worked within a team environment, have had to make sacrifices of their own time, I find were far better than others. It is just an observation I make but no one has ever mentioned that and this is our eighth meeting and nobody has discussed that. What is your view on that?
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
Looking at what, say, Highlands, for example, and the other establishments do, they do so many programmes on a few things obviously, employability, enrichment and health and wellbeing, all those sort of things, mental health and the transferrable skills and trying to make you a more rounded person. But one of the things, I suppose, in the challenges is that with the young people coming through and the whole age of social media and that sort of enclosed inward-looking mindset, that is probably another challenge we have to face where the establishments and the education partners need to work on that a bit more to make sure that the children are more well-rounded and can interact well. But, yes, probably things like sportsmanship, et cetera, you have that competitive edge and that drive but I would not say it would be detrimental, I am not sure, to someone who would not have that sort of experience. In general, it is just trying to make them aware that they are the skills that you would need to succeed, I suppose, to have that human interaction and team player mind- set.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Okay, is there anything else? No. Is there anything you would like to ask us? I suppose it does really sound like an interview now but is there anything you would like to ask us in terms of the
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance:
When will we know whether we have got the job or not?
Deputy R.J. Ward : We will be in contact
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I was a salesman in you, is it not, never leaving without asking for the order.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I was just going to say that you mentioned trends coming through, can you share those with us at this stage or will that come through
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We sort of do not want to pre-empt the report too much.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Sure, okay.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Not only because of procedure, because we want it obviously to be exciting when it is published but
The Deputy of St. Peter :
You can listen to them all, as we have been through them
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes. I think the trend is really clear, which is obvious, is that need for a much more broad-ranging education system that has been narrowed, probably because of the influence of the U.K. in terms of where they have gone with their education system, which does not seem to have proved to have been that successful in many ways. I think that realisation is coming through in lots and lots of different ways, not just from different establishments who are doing the educating but from organisations like yourself, which is very interesting to see, so that is one thing I think we can certainly pick out.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I have asked everybody and my favourite thing is a job is not provided anymore and has not been for some time and it is getting increasingly so and I am on my third career, third failure maybe but I have been in my third career. I have been asking them all, how are the educating people to be adaptable for the future and give them the skills for change? I have got some very different answers to that but I think it is fundamental and I have my views, which I have not shared.
Head of Marketing, Jersey Finance:
I think it is the employers as well need to adapt to the new millennial age and mindset and behaviours too.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
The inter-web is less than 30 years old
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We have managed to get through all of the day with only having Brexit mentioned once, which is really good. There was only a brief mention earlier and it was only the word, so there you go. Can I just say thank you very much for your time?
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Thank you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I know how busy you are and thank you for your submission and all of the information is really, really useful for us.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Good, thank you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
It helps us with a much more informed report and recommendations when we make them, so thank you very much.
Chief Executive Officer, Jersey Finance: Good, thank you.
Deputy Chief Executive, Jersey Finance: Thank you very much.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Thank you also for bringing your own public gallery with you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We feel much more popular now today.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
It has been very, very lonely up until now.
[13:55]