Transcript - Government Plan 2021 - Minister for International Development - 30 October 2020

Economic and International Development Scrutiny Panel

Government Plan Review Witness: The Minister for International Development

Friday, 30th October 2020

Panel:

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chair) Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chair) Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin

Witnesses:

Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville , The Minister for International Development Mr. E. Lewis , Programme Manager, Jersey Overseas Aid

[11:04]

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chair): Good morning, Minister.

The Minister for International Development: Good morning.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you for joining us today for this public hearing about International Development and its request in the Government Plan for budget and expenditure. We will start as normal by introducing ourselves. I am Deputy Kirsten Morel , chair of the panel, and to my right we have the birthday boy.

The Minister for International Development: Happy birthday.

Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour :

Yes, it is my birthday, and looking like I am 73. I am 43 today and happy to be here. Deputy Kevin Pamplin, member of the panel.

The Minister for International Development:

Give your age, why do you not? Okay, happy birthday. I am just trying to adjust the light in here.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sorry, in St. Mary we have ...

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chair): Yes, good morning. David Johnson .

The Minister for International Development: Good morning.

Deputy K.F. Morel : In St. Martin ?

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

Morning, Carolyn. Deputy Steve Luce , Deputy of St. Martin .

The Minister for International Development: A new panel since the last time I was before you.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is. It is very much a new panel. Minister, on your side of the table, so to speak?

The Minister for International Development:

My side of the table is me at the moment. The director of Jersey Overseas Aid, Simon Boas, is on a well-earned holiday on-Island at the moment. The Island identity programme officer is on holiday this week, and Ed Lewis , the Jersey Overseas Aid programme manager, is currently trying to get online but is having difficulty, I believe.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

No problem. We hope he is able to join us. In meantime, I am sure you will be able to hold the fort admirably. That is not a problem at all. Minister, if there are questions where you think you would prefer to wait until Ed hopefully will join us, then do mention it. We can kind of reorder things as we go, but we will start off. It would help our understanding if you run through the process that you have undertaken in the development of the Government Plan 2021-2024. By that, I mean how did you allocate projects, how did you decide which ones to prioritise, any consultation that you did and how you looked at the progress of each project in relation to last year, that sort of thing.

The Minister for International Development:

It might be easier if I just - especially for the newer members of your panel - describe how we categorise our overall budget. It is categorised in emergencies, which is £3.39 million; grant aid, which are our projects, our long-term sustainable projects; our local charities. Much of this work can be like our grant aid, because we are now doing a lot of work with Durrell and the R.J.A. and H.S. (Royal Jersey Agricultural and Horticultural Society). Our outreach work, which is about £57,000 of our work, which is our C.W.P.s (community work projects). Internships, bursaries and education: we are doing more in schools with the S.T.E.M. (Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths) subjects. Yes, so that is how our budget is categorised. The lion's share of it, the grant aid, is £6.8 million. As I said, we are now working with local charities. Some of the very small local charities we are doing pound for pound matches, what we have always done, but because a couple of the local charities - R.J.A. and H.S. Durrell and indeed the Gurkhas - have larger projects, the monies we give them are more like grant aid. There is £6.8 million in grant aid and local charities is near on £2 million now. That is our large sustainable projects and most of them are 2 or 3 years. Some of it is ongoing. Some of it we decide every year what we are going to allocate, what we are going to fund. We ask for expressions of interest from N.G.O.s (non-governmental organisations) and we go through on an annual basis. We like to visit the projects beforehand and ask lots of questions, so we can really sift out the projects that we want to support. Also for the benefit of the newer members, for the grant aid, we support certain countries because we find our aid is far better focused on particular countries where we can build up a relationship, get to know the culture, get to know how they work, how they operate and form relationships. That way we can form relationships at government level and have a greater influence that way. Our countries - and I think I have explained this before - are Ethiopia, Malawi, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Zambia and also Nepal. We choose those 6 target countries based on a mathematical formula, which I can give you. This is when I prefer the officers around. Right, so it is based on a mathematical formula and we take the C.P.I. (Corruption Perception Index) value and we take the H.D.I. (Humanitarian Development Index) value and we

times it and we end up with a certain amount of countries. We tend to pick the English-speaking countries because we feel that we can form a better relationship and understand the reports that they are producing, which obviously helps when we are monitoring. That goes on annually. As I said, we have a pot for emergencies and obviously this year that particular pot has been drawn on quite heavily with COVID. Where we can reprioritise any funding we have done so and will be doing so to support that emergency. That is where we are. The Government Plan process, we had to submit a business plan, which we did quite early on in this process. It has been such a long process I forget exactly when that was. We submitted a detailed business plan. Our main priority in 2019 to 2020 was to reverse the decline in our budget, because our budget since 2016 has been going down. We got down to 0.21 per cent of G.V.A. (gross value added), which is not good. It does not look good to the outside world, especially when we are signed up to try and achieve 0.7 per cent of G.V.A. Are you speaking? I see you speaking but I cannot hear.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I apologise, you were doing very well. I literally mumbled to myself that I had forgotten to put the chat up, so no, that is why.

The Minister for International Development:

I just thought I had muted you or something. Right, I have forgotten my train of thought now. So we have our budget and our main aim was to reverse decline, which we did successfully last year. We put in a bid to get our percentage of our budget to 0.25 per cent this year and next year. That was achieved. We have got us back to a better place. It is 0.26 per cent, sorry, which is a better place. What I have been arguing for is we really need to start to improve that to get nearer at least the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) average, which is 0.31 per cent of G.V.A. I have put in a bid from this year to increase ... sorry, it is from next year, to increase our budget by 0.01 per cent. So we achieved the 0.26 per cent this year and from next year we are going to tie our budget to G.V.A., that is the first step, and also I got the Council of Ministers to agree that we should be heading for the O.E. C.D . average at least, which is 0.01 per cent each year, so by 2024 we will get to 0.29 per cent. That is as far as the Government Plan goes and I am hoping we will continue in that vein so that we can at least hold our heads up and say at least we are heading for the O.E. C.D . average.

[11:15]

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Sorry, can I just ask there, Minister, the O.E. C.D . average or the percentage figure is more important to you than the actual number, the amount of money you get?

The Minister for International Development:

I think it demonstrates a proportion ... well, the whole giving is based on the G8 agreed sustainable development goals and they have done it in percentages, so the aim is 0.7 per cent of your G.V.A. That is what all countries are aiming to do. I would not say it is more important, it is just how it is measured.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I suppose what I am driving at is if G.V.A. falls off the edge of a cliff and your funding is significantly reduced, you are going to be ... that is why I asked the question. It is the percentage that is the important number for you rather than the amount of money you get? Next year, if you receive £3 million less, how are you going to feel about that?

The Minister for International Development:

I will not feel great. In fact, it will not be good at all, but we feel that by linking it, you take the good with the bad. You link it to G.V.A. in the hope that it is proportionate to what the jurisdiction can afford.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, that is fine. Yes, that is all I need to know. Obviously a percentage or whatever the number is, it is the percentage. If we have a bad year, everybody has a bad year, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Minister, following on from that questioning, obviously one of the slight surprises to the panel was that the actual funding has not reduced this year by any large amount, we are talking £60,000, £70,000, that sort of thing, whereas earlier in the year when we had asked you in your quarterly hearing I believe Simon Boas had said that you were working on a projection of losing about £1 million of funding because of the fall in G.V.A. and the link that you had created. Are you able to go into that a bit more, as to we have got this 0.1 per cent increase, and does that cover the £1 million? Yes, are you able to explain why we have not seen a greater decrease in your budget because of the link to G.V.A.?

The Minister for International Development:

No, the link to G.V.A. will happen next year. It is formally being linked from 2021. From 2019 to 2020 we reversed the decline, so we went from 0.21 per cent in 2019 to 0.26 per cent in 2020. That is a significant amount, from £10.34 million to £12 million. That is what we achieved this year. Next year we are going to tie it to G.V.A. The reason why our figures look as if they have declined by nearly £1 million, which is significant, is because of the Fiscal Policy Panel's forecasts for the forthcoming years. Now, they are forecasts, so they are based on what they have forecast. We can hope that it will not be as bad as they say, but I think by linking it ... we would prefer to link it because then I feel it almost removes the political argy-bargy of arguing about this budget. If it is something that we can agree on at this time that is fair and proportionate to our jurisdiction and it is something that we can tie to our G.V.A. so that when we are being compared with other jurisdictions, we can say: "Yes, we are heading up to the O.E. C.D . average" and hopefully we will get there and beyond.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is interesting. If we can just discuss that linkage a little bit, because it strikes me that ... I understand why you are saying it removes the political debate. If there is a formal link, it just goes up and down, it floats accordingly. But unless you bring that linkage into law in some statutory way, it is always open to political debate. You are perhaps setting a political convention, but conventions can be broken. Have you considered bringing that into law, kind of linking the overseas aid budget to G.V.A. in that way legally?

The Minister for International Development:

I had not, but it is something that I certainly could discuss with the commissioners, yes. It is an interesting point, but again, you take the good with the bad, so we might not want it to be law if it is particularly bad or we might want to accelerate our percentages at a greater rate.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So you are happy to have a percentage, Minister, but depending on where G.V.A. is, you might be seeking to move the percentage in that case? Can we assume that from what you have just said?

The Minister for International Development:

We are moving the percentage at the minute. We have put in the Government Plan to move the percentage from 0.26 per cent in 2021 to increase it by 0.01 per cent year on year.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is that one of the reasons why the amount of money you are being given is going up by £1 million a year or was that number based on the Fiscal Policy Panel's predictions for G.V.A.?

The Minister for International Development: It will be a bit of both.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you. Minister, if I could take you back, sorry, to the beginning of where we started, it was only because I did not jot it down. You started to break down some of your spending. You said £6.8 million in grant aid, £2 million to local charities. Is that £2 million part of the £6.8 million?

The Minister for International Development: No.

Deputy K.F. Morel : No, so it is additional.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, but some of the local charities is applied like grant aid because some of them are bigger grants, such as to the R.J.A and H.S. and Durrell, which are big grants. We treat them like the N.G.O.s now, whereas some of the local charities budget, which is £1.99 million, are much, much smaller grants to other local charities. St. John 's Ambulance, for example, we are sponsoring a nurse in Gaza, and other even smaller ones, we might match their fundraising pound for pound. Grant aid is £6.8 million; local charities is £1.99 million.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You mentioned £3.39 million as well, I believe. That may be my hearing got me, but I did not catch what that was for, if you do not mind repeating it.

The Minister for International Development:

That is for emergencies and humanitarian responses. A lot of that goes into pooled funds. We have got relationships now with Start Network, with the U.N. (United Nations) O.C.H.A. (Office for the Co- ordination of Humanitarian Affairs), which we give monies to and they apply it for the refugee crisis. Then we give usually direct monies to other N.G.O.s that we know work well in particular emergencies, so it is as and when they come up.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Brilliant, thank you. Obviously this has been quite a ... sorry, the Deputy of St. Martin was there. I missed him.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I was just going to ask a question about the emergencies, Minister. Am I right in thinking that your emergencies budget then would be likened to contingencies, inasmuch as your long-term stuff is planned in, it is 2 to 3 years, it is committed?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Am I right in thinking that if you had less money or more money that you then put those variations into the emergencies?

The Minister for International Development:

The emergencies outreach. Yes, some of the local charities, for example, we were asked during the Government Plan process - to go back to that - at the beginning of August we had the new forecast from the Fiscal Policy Panel, which is why our forecast figures for the coming years seemed to go down by £1 million. But then we were also asked at the end of the August, the Council of Ministers wanted everybody to look at their budgets again to see where we could make savings, because there was not enough money. We have gone through that process and this year we were not able to start a couple of projects, but they are going to start next year. But also we had planned a project to commemorate Liberation with the British Red Cross, which we are hoping to do next year, but because we were unable to do it this year, we have got some funding left for that. Also the funding for our C.W.P.s, because unfortunately we had 3 community work projects ... the Lebanon one with 30 Jersey volunteers, we have had to cancel them all. We have our budget that we would normally allocate for travel and C.W.P.s like this. We have that and we have asked Treasury, while we still hold that because it is part of our budget, we have highlighted that as a possible that we can give back - along with the Liberation project - to Treasury, but we have asked if we can wait until the end of the year because if an emergency ... if we get a tsunami on Boxing Day, as we did a few years ago, we would really like to use those monies for emergencies. That was a longwinded way of saying, yes, I guess you could regard it as contingencies, but I do not really see emergencies as contingencies.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am going to stop asking questions in a minute, but can I ...

Deputy K.F. Morel :

No, carry on. That is why we are here.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

... ask the 4,000 dollar question of the Minister? I understand the pressures you are under and we see global crises around the world that need help, but at the end of the day, Minister, your budget is going up by £1 million a year for the next 4 years and we know that the Government Plan is looking to find efficiencies and economies across all parts of Government. How do you feel about the fact that you are increasing your budget significantly year on year while all your other Ministers around the table are having to find cuts?

This is precisely why we want to link it to G.V.A., to tie it to G.V.A., so that we can have this discussion at this time and agree on what is proportionate to us as a jurisdiction, what we feel is right percentage-wise. Reputationally we have the broader picture to consider. Reputationally, does it look good on us as an international finance centre, if we are giving - as we were last year - 0.21 per cent of our G.V.A. when the agreement that we have all made is 0.7 per cent? From an outsider looking in, what does that say about us as a community? I would prefer - and that is what we were trying to do - to sort of have this conversation at this time. Admittedly, we were trying to have it before COVID, but take COVID, the forecasts of the Fiscal Policy Panel are going down, so we will proportionately go down with it. We just feel that there are ... reputationally I think it is important that we play our part, so I would not feel good to maintain a budget as an international finance centre giving 0.21 per cent of G.V.A. I do not think that says an awful lot about us as a community. I did have some figures here that ... here we are. Currently in every £10 paid in tax, we spend 13.7 pence on aid.

[11:30]

If we really cannot afford that, I do not think that says much about us as a community, about how we are managing our budgets. I think it is good to regard it in percentage terms and to aim to at least get to O.E. C.D . average. I keep on using this to people that make remarks like that, how do I feel about giving millions away ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Do you think we could allocate funds to other departments in the same way, Minister? For the environment, for example, do you think it would be right to say: "We will do a percentage of G.V.A. for the environment every year"? Because the environment budget is, what, a third of yours?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. That is something we should possibly debate. We have had the debate in the States to give 1 per cent to arts and culture. Frankly, because these are the sort of budgets that can easily get cut and are easily cut, so they keep on getting cut. What we give to heritage is appalling. Our heritage monuments and museums, there should be a sense of pride. Our arts and culture should be a sense of pride. It should not be something that is an easy hit when we have to slice budgets. If by agreeing a percentage of what goes to culture and arts, 1 per cent, if that is how they have got to get their money then, yes, I do think ... and it might be something that we should consider for the environment.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is an interesting idea. You are right, Minister, it is something that the Assembly is doing more because we have done it with arts and culture and heritage. I am trying to think, there was another subject we have done it on as well. Jèrriais, I think, something like this. The Deputy of St. Mary had a question.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, just on that topic there, I guess I think it is a good idea, i.e. giving a proportion of G.V.A. to the environment would I think be welcomed by the Minister for the Environment, I suggest. We should look into that maybe a bit more. My question, before we lose it, was you referred earlier on to emergency funding, Minister. Now, I am aware that not so long ago out of that pocket, as it were, we did give funds to the Lebanon emergency. Could you just remind me what happens now? Are there other funds available for a similar emergency or if one did occur are we having to go back to central government for an allocation or how does that work?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, we did give funding to the Lebanon explosion. It was not part of what we would normally consider to be our emergency funding, but we have built up a very good relationship with Lebanon. I have visited the refugee camps there on 2 occasions and the country, while it does not fall in the bottom 50 on the H.D.I., we did feel ... and we gave a contribution of £10,000 when there was that explosion. We made a decision not to give any more for that particular crisis at this time. We would prefer to wait to see if we can give more direct emergency aid to possibly the refugee camps again and target the places where we feel has most need.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

So that additional funding will come out of funds you already have, would it?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, from our emergencies.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Sorry, another question while I have got the floor, if I may, Chair. You referred earlier on to the focus on 6 particular jurisdictions. How written in stone is that? How and when do you entertain further entrants, as it were, or reassess whether we should be widening the scope or even limiting it?

The Minister for International Development:

We consider it all the time, at least on an annual basis, because, for example, also in that list we used to fund Ghana, but Ghana are doing much better and have come up on the H.D.I., so they have worked themselves out of receiving our aid anyway. We look at those countries all the time.

Another thing I should have explained, especially to the newer members, was as well as the particular countries, we have now themed our grant aid, so it means we are not only giving money, we are hopefully giving added value. Our themes are dairy, conservation and financial inclusion, which are all strengths that we feel that we can draw on as a jurisdiction. We have areas of expertise here, R.J.A. and H.S., Durrell and the financial infrastructure and expertise and knowledge that we have here. When we do consider the countries, we consider ones that may benefit from projects of this kind in them, for example, Malawi and Ethiopia with dairy projects.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, sorry to interrupt. I am one of the new members. Could you just explain what you mean by "financial inclusion", please?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. It means bringing finance to the poorest people, so enabling them to save money. They usually do it all on these cheap as chips mobile phones that they operate and it enables them to open up bank accounts through their phones and various sources and it means that they can save money. It is usually the women in the household that look after the money and it just enables them to access microloans if they need to buy seeds or equipment or it just enables them to get a foot on the ladder, rather than just living from hand to mouth.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, I have done some work myself on financial inclusion. You are right, they talk about in developing countries the unbanked, and in many developing countries we are talking 80 per cent or 90 per cent of the population have no access to banking services. Yes, it is a really key way of bringing people into not the financial system in a negative sense, but accessing financial services. It helps them build enterprises, buy homes, that sort of thing, and save money, which is working.

The Minister for International Development:

Absolutely, if there is a tragedy or something happens, they can go and get a loan and pay it back over time, so yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Absolutely. It is understandable. As you were saying, it kind of leverages Jersey's expertise as well in finance.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. In fact, we are just coming to the end of one of our biggest projects, which was with Comic Relief, which was exactly in financial inclusion in 3 of our countries.

Deputy K.F. Morel : That is interesting.

Programme Manager, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Sorry, can I just interrupt? I am sorry, this is Edward Lewis .

The Minister for International Development: Hi, Ed.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Hi, Ed. Pleased you could join us.

Programme Manager, Jersey Overseas Aid:

Head of Programme. I am so, so sorry for the lateness. I have been listening for the last 10 minutes.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Not a problem.

Programme Manager, Jersey Overseas Aid:

But I have had I.T. (information technology) issues, so it is just to let the Minister know that I am here and also for the panel if there are additional questions.

The Minister for International Development:

Okay. I think they are enjoying sort of machinegunning me on my own.

Programme Manager, Jersey Overseas Aid:

If I could just go back to the comment on the countries and whether or not we would look to expand them or to look at those, as the Minister said, it is something that we do review on a regular basis. But I think we have to take into consideration the resources that we have available in terms of the human resources. I think 6 as a number is about the right size for an office of our size to be able to get to know government strategies, other donors, other partners working in those areas, to really get a feel for them and an understanding of the context. That way we can have a greater impact. I think it is unlikely it will increase from 6. If anything, we might shrink, but we do look at it on a regular basis.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thanks for that clarification. Thank you.

Thank you. Minister, if we could just move quickly on to another area of your work, which does not fit perhaps as Minister for International Development, more in your role as Assistant Chief Minister, which is the Island identity work. Now, we understood that there was going to be an interim report published or a final report - I am not sure which - but we have yet to see this. Are you able to update us on the progress of that work?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. As you probably know, the board was formed last October and between then and now we have had about 10 meetings, but we were significantly delayed from February to May because we were unable to meet or have interviews and stuff like that. We have obviously learned a lot more since then to do things online and adapted since, but we took an interim - very rough and ready, because it was a bit like that - report to the Council of Ministers in July, which they agreed to in principle, but suggested to me that I speak to each of the departments that the board were making recommendations to, which was right. So we were able to feed into the Government Plan process. There is a theme on Island identity and hopefully it runs throughout the plan in one way or another. We were able to do that. We have since then been, as and when possible, going to see different departments and different bodies. I am waiting to see the Comité des Connétable s, for example, and others just to get their take on this interim report. What we intend to do ... because the interim report as it stands at the minute is over 200 pages, which is huge, with 60 recommendations. They have probably got to be finessed, shall I say, but what we have been doing over the last couple of weeks is producing a summary report, which is a much easier read, on what we are trying to achieve. We hope to publish the summary report and then on a website put up the draft interim report while we carry on seeing people, because the draft interim report we hope is changeable. As people come up with different suggestions, different ideas, we can change that on the website. That is where I am at the moment, trying to speak to people, trying to get a website and trying to find someone to build the website and trying to publish this summary report. I would be quite happy to share where I am and the report so far with Scrutiny, but I would prefer to just be given a couple of months to enable me to finish speaking to the departments and A.L.O.s (arm's length organisations) that it might affect.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It sounds like an impressive piece of work in its scale. Are you satisfied that this process you are going through now is not going to water down your report?

The Minister for International Development:

I do not think the essence and what we are saying will be watered down. Obviously some departments, if we are making recommendations, Scrutiny must know this. The department might come back and say: "Yes, that is great, but there is no way we have got the resources/manpower to do that this year."

[11:45]

It might get watered down in that way or they might pick something up and say: "That is absolutely ridiculous. That is impossible" in which case, fine. If that is the case, let us have a discussion, but we can only produce what the board have said, but the board will be holding on to the integrity of the report.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, have you got any idea what the cost of the recommendations is going to be?

The Minister for International Development:

No, I do not. That is precisely why we are having a conversation with the departments. We are not demanding that all the things that we are suggesting are carried out day one. In actual fact, for example, if we are saying to the Comité des Connétable s it would be a good idea to find ways to reinvigorate the Parish Assemblies, I do not know what they will consider to do there. It might be a case that Parish Assemblies are put online like vote.je so that more people might be encouraged to participate. No, I do not have an idea of what the costings are. That is for each individual department. Some of the recommendations might not cost anything. For example, one of the recommendations  was  to  have  more  conversations  -  that  is  probably  the  External  Relations Department - with the honorary consuls because during the COVID crisis we acknowledge that some of the consuls worked really well with their communities, others less so. Should Government be looking to them to see where they can support in whatever way? I do not just mean financial support, I mean ways that we can communicate with people. No, it would be impossible ...

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Are you able to tell us what the expenditure, from your perspective, on the project will be in the coming year?

The Minister for International Development:

From me and the board, so far we have cost nothing. The time of the officer is what it has cost. The board members that are not States Members have obviously given their time. We will have to spend some money on producing a hard copy of the summary report and building a website, but the

suggestions everywhere else is for different departments to take on some of the recommendations or not and build them into their own budgets.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Will one of your roles be to try and encourage that, them taking on the recommendations?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, absolutely. I would hope Scrutiny too.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Minister, it is great you have not spent any money but were you allocated any to do this project?

The Minister for International Development:

I think my allocation for this was £70,000 at the beginning.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Are you able to give us a taste of some of those recommendations? You just said one, for instance, perhaps about Constables invigorating Parish

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, a flavour of the recommendations. To set up an ambassador's programme for people that travel from the Island elsewhere. Sports people, officers from E.R. (External Relations), C.P.A. (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association), so that when people travel and are representing the Island they know about the Island, they know its history, they know you know, so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Possibly having ambassador packs that we can give people, books that we can recommend to read that give our history and what we are about, photographs whatever.   We  are  suggesting  a  co-ordinated  image  for  everyone,  sports  people  to  have  a recognisable emblem like New Zealand. You see their emblem and you know exactly where they are from. The ports of entry, this is one of my bugbears, I am not sure if anything will be done in the existing airport terminal but it bugs me that we do not have a flavour of Jersey when you are coming into the Island. I mean we have all these advertisements

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You have a flavour of the finance industry when you come to the Island, that is for sure.

The Minister for International Development:

Exactly, so we have advertisements for every single trust company in the Island - and I get it, I get that they have to do that for commercial reasons - and then we are faced with a dinosaur. That might have moved, I do not know, I have not been up to the airport for so long. Is that the best we can do? That is our port of entry and the exit is not much better. There are lots of little things that we could do in our harbours that welcome us and, you know, the flavour of the place you are coming into. Other things, we are recommending that External Relations should be a separate department rather than being put into the Chief Minister's Department, because we felt by having a separate department for External Relations it indicates that we have autonomy over ourselves, that we are not a local authority. That would send out a better message. To develop the citizenship programme in our schools so that our children know about our voting process. I know there is back in 2004, I think it was, I set up the citizenship programme that the States Greffe still run for year 5. We have the Youth Assembly but there is a lot more that needs to be done to teach our history, our culture and get the children out into the environment, to know about our environment. What else can I say?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Anything linguistically from Jersey's Jèrriais or French cultural background?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, certainly we would like to see not necessarily all street names marked but where we can use Jèrriais we do use it, which indicates that we have our own language. We are suggesting the promotion of creative industries. Have a creative industry strategy. A Jersey style for architecture, road signs. We are suggesting that all departments in fact do not always take their cue from the U.K. (United Kingdom), they could look elsewhere. Just in the design of bus shelters or simple things like that. Let us look a little further afield or even closer afield and let us look to France possibly. For Jersey Overseas Aid and Jersey Finance to have a look at developing a more philanthropic or impact strategy I am not explaining this ...

Deputy K.F. Morel : Impact investment.

The Minister for International Development:

Impact investment strategy or sustainable finance, that sort of thing. So we feel all these things will help to build a better identity for us and then maybe further along the line do something like New Zealand have done, Scotland have done, Wales have done and package it up - and I hate to use this word - into a brand so that when you step off the plane or boat you know exactly the place you have landed or when you leave you know our strengths, whatever they are, but let us promote them. I always felt we were a little shy about promoting ourselves and promoting the good that there is here.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I must admit I do agree with you. The Deputy of St. Mary has a question.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

It is an observation really. Thank you for those examples, I had not appreciated they were quite so far wide-ranging and some of them touch on almost reorganisation of government and reorganisation of local government. What I am really asking is who is involved in this bit of work and general conversation as to such things?

The Minister for International Development:

It was an initiative that came from the Chief Minister. He wanted to build Island identity, a stronger sense of Island identity here. We have been charged with doing this piece of work and, like I say, we fed some of it into the Government Plan in July and it does touch on many of the departments and some of the themes of the Government Plan. Things like: "We will promote and protect Jersey's interests, profile and reputation internationally." That is not only the tangible things, the elements I have mentioned are more the soft power that we could promote internationally. Where we are asking one of the themes: "We will nurture a diverse and inclusive society." Almost counterintuitively, if a place has a very strong sense of cultural identity, it creates greater inclusion. It is something everyone hopefully can buy into. That is why they have come to live over here and they can be proud of the place and proud of what it is doing and creating and the culture they live in, and again be the most wonderful ambassadors for a place.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Just to clarify, I am in no way challenging what you are about I am just trying to get a feel as to the degree of consultation. Perhaps I should know, have the general public or organisations been invited to contribute and have they done?

The Minister for International Development:

That is what we hope to be doing hereon in. What we had to do was get the report together, get it fed into the Government Plan so that we could point to elements of it to departments so they have something to work from. But now I think is the time that we have not only got to work with the stakeholders but then widen the field to speak with I.o.D. (Institute of Directors), schools, the Parishes. As I say, I am due to speak to the Comité des Connétable s, the Bailiff and, yes, as wide as we can go. It has to be something that the community buy into, can see elements and can see why it is important.

[12:00]

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Thanks for that. So you are saying that what you have now effectively is really a skeleton plan and you are widening it out, which is all I wanted to find out really. Thank you.

The Minister for International Development:

It is not something that you can just slap on someone's desk and say: "Here you are, do this." It has to have a buy-in from people and it will build, which is why we did not really want to publish we thought long and hard about this, why we did not want to publish the interim report in hard copy because it is an evolving document and which is why we felt that probably putting it on a website where people can feed their ideas in and take out from would be a better way to proceed.

The Deputy of St. Mary : Thanks for that.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is interesting to hear you say that you are hoping departments have already picked it up and fed into this year's Government Plan. Do you know if any departments have picked up any particular elements to put into this year's Government Plan?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, External Relations, we have had a meeting about the consuls and they have taken that on board, and they are also looking at the ambassador's programme. There will be 2 kinds of ambassador's programmes. We have already thought about this as to how people travelling from the Island - like school children, sports people, people going on C.P.A. trips, business people - how they engage, how they portray us, but also people who might have been born here, who might have lived here for a short while, who live overseas, how we can tap into them as a network of people, inclusive network. External Relations are certainly looking at that. The citizenship programme in schools, I know that is something that the schools are very keen to promote. How and when they include it into their particular curriculum, I do not know, that might take a while.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I do find it odd, I have to admit - and I understand what you said - that Scrutiny has not seen this report yet. It seems like people are already acting on and it is out there. So I must admit I do feel that Scrutiny - and to be honest, the public - should be able to see it given that people are already building it into their Government Plan actions.

The Minister for International Development: Yes, it was chicken and the egg.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I believe Scrutiny is meant to be a priority of Ministers.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, it is. It is. I think about a month ago I did offer you to be able to sit down and see this report. This is the first opportunity I have had to mention it to you. The public will most certainly see it but I think out of courtesy to some of the stakeholders I should be having the conversations with them first. I am more than happy to share where we have got with Scrutiny in the form of the reports but, like I say, the larger one we want to put on a website. As soon as we have quotes and built a website that is what we will do. I am more than happy to in fact, I can furnish you with a very rough hard copy of the interim report now if you just wanted to get a flavour of what it is about.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That would be quite nice. I personally have been asking about it for a long time and it has been: "Soon, a couple of weeks" that sort of thing and time has always just marched on and marched on, it has never appeared. I think from the perspective of Ministers should be prioritising Scrutiny and the idea that Scrutiny will get to see at the same time as the public, that large report, I think is incorrect and Scrutiny should see it before then. We should be able to comment on it. We are stakeholders, that is absolutely the point. You seem to have missed one of the main stakeholders in this and that is other States Members and Scrutiny. So I would urge you to furnish us with the report as it is going around the department.

The Minister for International Development:

It is not going around the department. I am having specific meetings with specific stakeholders and Scrutiny is definitely on the list, which is why I mentioned it to you over a month ago. People are putting pressure on us to publish but we are not at that stage yet. I know lots of people have been talking about it but I do not want to publish something if I have not had a conversation with some of the people that it is going to if they are expected to deliver on some of the things we are saying. I do not think that would be very courteous. It has been quite difficult to get meetings with people, some are COVID and all the rest of it, it has been a bit of a challenge and there are not many of us to go around to have these conversations with people. For example, I have been given a date to go and see the Comité des Connétable s, they could not fit me on their September agenda so I am due to see them on 7th December. It is not from want of trying and I am more than happy to sit down with you and your Scrutiny Panel if you wanted to have the rough draft, just to give me your initial feedback.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It might be well worth doing that.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Just to feed off what the chair said, I understand what the Minister is saying but a bit like a complex piece of legislation which we know is going to be lodged some time and Scrutiny Panels are often given advance warning of that simply so they can get their ducks in a row, if you want to put it that way, and be alerted to what they may well want to say so that we are ahead of the game and can issue our own report shortly afterwards. It strikes me this is something we would need to respond to fairly quickly, I would have thought and an early sight of the draft would be useful.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You mentioned COVID-19, Minister, and I wanted to ask, not from a logistical perspective from the themes in the report, has COVID-19 had any impact on the themes and recommendations? Has it made you think of new recommendations? I just wonder if it has had any effect.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, the one I have just mentioned about the consuls, because I sat on the community taskforce for COVID response with the communities, the community support groups and the Parishes, the charities and one thing that we were acutely aware of was that some of the consuls worked very well with their own communities and some were not in such good contact. The people from that community used somebody else, not the honorary consul, to go to for advice. I certainly know from one of your panel members, who also sat on the community taskforce, that we did feel that for whatever reason they worked in very different ways. This is something that External Relations felt that they could take up, so we have had an early meeting with External Relations and they are considering this. That came about from COVID. The other thing it has affected is, as I say, the inability to meet people and discuss it in a sort of robust way around the table. That has not been easy. It has been very, very difficult. Not only with stakeholders but with my own panel members.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I do hear what you are saying there. I appreciate that strongly. Even now you are looking at me and I am at a funny angle because of the screen. I think, Minister, from my perspective, that pretty much sums up everything that I was going to ask. Does the panel have any further questions?

Deputy K.G. Pamplin:

I have just one. It is the obvious question of COVID and we have touched upon it a couple of times and also the great unknown of Brexit. How do you see that impacting your commitments and agenda for the year ahead?

The Minister for International Development:

Are we talking Jersey Overseas Aid?

Deputy K.G. Pamplin:

Both really, I guess. Your ministerial role and what we have been talking about today but, yes, also overseas aid.

The Minister for International Development:

My commitments as a Minister. I think at the minute we are all waiting. This is not a great time, is it? As we go into winter expecting more COVID cases to come up and everybody looking to the spring. We are also looking to the spring to see Brexit, what is going to happen, what is going to happen at our borders. This is not an easy time and it is not an easy time when there are so many ponderables or it is very difficult to make decisions when we are living in this time of limbo with our health and with our trade, what is going to happen with Brexit. Very difficult going forward to make decisions for the future. We just have to try to navigate as best we can, the priority of people's health, to keep the Island safe but also to keep an economy going and the balance of that is extremely difficult. I have to say I feel that Jersey is in a good place. When we just look overseas, not very far, we are in a good place. We have to hold our nerve, we have to work together as a community. One thing that was absolutely heart-warming is working on the COVID community taskforce, it was fantastic how people came together. Not only the charities but the Parishes as well helping out, delivering food, picking up prescriptions, that sort of thing. As a community I think we have got an awful lot going for us but it is not a great time.

Deputy K.G. Pamplin:

It is a conversation we had with our Government Plan hearing with the Minister for External Relations about the impact to his budget in terms of not regularly flying to meetings which he would undertake and the impact on him and his team. I guess what you were saying earlier about going to see projects and getting off-Island, not just for your ministerial role but also for overseas aid, that is going to be a bit a challenge next year, given where we are now.

The Minister for International Development:

It is going to be a huge challenge because we do like to go and scrutinise our projects overseas and see what they are and what they are doing. Luckily we scrutinise our partners who we work with overseas very well, so we have good relationships with them all and they are trustworthy partners. We take some comfort from that. Also it has been awful for our volunteers, we were due to send about 80 volunteers overseas this year who have not been able to go and those are as well as helping the needy in those countries our volunteers, I always feel, benefit in a completely different way, a life-changing way, themselves. It is not a good time, as I say, but we have to stick with it and work as a community and try to be as positive as we can.

Deputy K.G. Pamplin:

That is it from me. There have been many hearings in the last few weeks, we are doing seemingly one after the other, there are not many Ministers I have grilled so far who can hold their own like you have today so full credit to you.

The Minister for International Development: Thank you.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If I can go back, just quickly, to the beginning, could the Minister just explain a little bit about the corruption index that she mentioned, please?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, it is the perceived corruption index. Not many countries use that index. In fact we might be one of the only ones. We just feel that if there is a perception even of corruption or if a country cannot get themselves off the bottom mark of corruption then why should we be looking to them to give them aid?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If it is a perception, Minister, is it not then a subjective decision? Do you not worry that you may end up giving money where you should not or you should?

The Minister for International Development:

We think we are giving money where we should, not where we should not, which is why we take into account the corruption index. As I have said in the past, I can give my money if my budget was increased 10 times I could still give it away. We have to be very choosy about where and how and why we give our money.

[12:15]

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I was going to say I have nothing more but having heard that last question, why is it we are the only country that are using this corruption index? Why are the others not?

The Minister for International Development:

I do not know. I do not know why. Maybe some do take it into account but we build that into the formula that we use when choosing our countries.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Yes, that has been explained in previous meetings and I was interested to hear it and it seems very sensible but I am just curious as to why the jurisdictions did not adopt the same formula but I appreciate you are not in a position to know that. Apart from that, nothing more and thank you for your answers to our question. Thank you.

The Minister for International Development: Okay, my pleasure.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you indeed. That is it from me as well. I reiterate what Deputy Pamplin said, there are not many Ministers who would do an entire hearing without their officers, although I know Ed made a belated appearance, but that was excellent from that perspective certainly. Thank you, Minister, enjoy the rest of your day.

The Minister for International Development: Thank you.

[12:15]