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Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel
Government Plan Review
Witness: The Minister for Education
Monday, 9th November 2020
Panel:
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair) Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour Deputy T. Pointon of St. John
Witnesses:
Senator T.A. Vallois, The Minister for Education
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour , Assistant Minister for Education
Mr. M. Rogers, Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills
Mr. S. O'Regan, Group Director, Education
Ms S. Famili, Director, Skills
Mr. K. Posner. Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills)
[10:03]
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair):
Welcome to the hearing of the Government Plan with the Minister for Education. We have a 1½ hours. We will start with some introductions. I am Deputy Rob Ward and I chair the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :
I am Trevor Pointon, the Deputy of St. John , and I am a member of the panel.
Deputy Doublet I think is having a bit of a problem joining at the moment, but she will be here presently. Minister.
The Minister for Education:
Yes, Senator Tracey Vallois, Minister for Education.
Assistant Minister for Education: Deputy Jeremy Maçon, Assistant Minister.
Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Mark Rogers, Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills.
Group Director, Education
Seán O'Regan, Group Director, Education.
Deputy R.J. Ward : Is that everybody?
Director, Skills:
Saboohi Famili, Director of Skills.
Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:
Keith Posner, Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Okay, that is great. Thanks. Deputy Doublet is on her way, she is having laptop problems at the moment. To start with, Minister, can you confirm the amount of departmental base budget that you hold responsibility for?
The Minister for Education:
In terms of the Government Plan for 2021 we identify £133,335,000 relating to my portfolio alone.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
How is that base budget for 2021 broken down between the various services that fall under your remit? Obviously there will be a general answer there because the detail would be very long, I am sure.
The Minister for Education:
So there is £130,817,000 in the C.Y.P.E.S. as shown in the table that we have under the Government Plan but the breakdown is predominantly: schools, £78.4 million; we have £650,000 for instrumental music; 7.78 million for special educational needs; 6.36 million for support services for schools and colleges; just over £4 million for policy and planning and so the total Education directorate in that space is £97,320,000. We, of course, then go on to young people and skills areas so we have further vocational and tertiary education which is £11,878,000. Our Youth Service is £2.79 million. We have higher education, which is £17, 260,000; Careers Jersey which is £690,000 and support services for culture, £1,137,000. We have a split area of around £712,000.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
In terms of the budget compared with 2020, how does it compare? Is there additional funding that you require in 2021 for the services under your remit?
The Minister for Education:
Okay, so it is difficult to do a direct comparison to 2020 because the methodology has changed slightly. Changes in amounts at service area likely to be as a result of the change in mapping rather than increases or decreases in budget allocations but, bearing in mind the comparability issues, 2020 working papers show that £120,798,000 in total identified to the Minister for Education's portfolio, of which £119,086,000 was within the C.Y.P.E.S. Department.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The funding pressures for the services under your remit, are they being addressed in the Government Plan and, if so, how are they being addressed?
The Minister for Education:
Yes, predominantly - and I have to say I am really grateful to all the team. You will be aware that we have been on a bit of journey with regards to school funding and with regards to engaging with the public about what they like to see with regards to Education moving forward. We have 3 proposals for new recurring monies. The 4-year programme for educational reform, starting in 2021, that is £7,946,000. We have, of course, the Youth Service project, which you will remember there was an amendment in the last Government Plan by Deputy Inna Gardiner . That is £150,000 and the Move on Café, which is £53,000. In terms of pressures, we have a deficit, as far as we can see, approximately £5 million, possibly more - I think the last count we saw about £5.5 million - in deficit with regards to our schools and colleges because of the demands and expectations that are required around that. But that will be as part of the £7,946,000, which is part of the Education Reform Programme, predominantly around the changing of the formula that we have in place, what is called the age weighted pupil unit.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We will have some questions on those areas later. What other sources of income does the department have and what changes, if any, are envisaged during the Government Plan period for these possible other sources of income?
The Minister for Education:
Income from services is £19,864,000 targeted for 2021, £19,842,000 of which is in C.Y.P.E.S. So school fees is predominantly the largest amount, which is about £12 to £13 million, Highlands course fees, £3.3 million. They are the most significant income sources I have in terms of the table. There are a number of lines, which I am sure you do not want me to go through every single one of them, but if you would like me to I am more than happy to.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, that is okay, I think the headline ones are important and we may well come back to some of those things. One of things, before we move on, is can you confirm why the extension of the Jersey Premium to students aged 16 to 19 has been partially deferred in 2021? It was one of the recommendations accepted in a Scrutiny report from the panel.
The Minister for Education:
So we have been going backwards and forwards on this particular issue because I was under the impression - I made it very clear to my officers - that I would like the 16 to 19 in place. I have had confirmation that it has been in place, the Jersey Premium for 16 to 19 year-olds and there appears to have been a bit of a problem with the 6 month report, in terms of the wording in that. But it has been confirmed to me that money was in place and it will continue in place going forward.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So it is not a deferral now? That is not the case then?
The Minister for Education:
No, no, it is not. I apologise for that oversight?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
No, it is good that is happening because I am sure it will have a positive impact. Deputy Pointon, do you want to ask the next set of questions?
The Deputy of St. John :
Yes. We are going to move on to the Move on Café. Why has the St. Helier Youth and Community Trust decided to redirect its financial support from funding the assistant youth worker to pay for rent for the property and activities in the centre?
The Minister for Education:
As I understand it, Deputy , and thank you for your question, the redirect is from covering the salary of the assistant youth worker to funding the rent of the property, which is approximately £11,000 per year, as well as agreeing to offer funds for resources and activities carried out from Move on Café. The St. Helier Youth and Community Trust also supports other youth worker salaries in the Parish of St. Helier , such as the First Tower and La Pouquelaye Youth projects.
The Deputy of St. John :
Thank you, Minister. You are saying this is money that has not been diverted away from staffing the project?
The Minister for Education:
No, so predominantly what it was was that the St. Helier Youth Trust would fund that part of the salary. There was an agreement from that trust that they were no longer going to provide the covering of the salary for the assistant youth worker so therefore that is the reason why we have this bid in for next year, to ensure that there are sufficient funds for the Move on Café. Absolutely rightly so because the full-time youth worker to assist the senior youth worker in this project is in a really strong position going forward to continue to deliver a programme 6 afternoons and 5 evenings per week. It is extremely beneficial and important for our younger people.
The Deputy of St. John :
Thank you for that, Minister. What is the current funding split for the project between Government and external funding?
The Minister for Education:
There is £150,000 from the Government, with £11,000 from the Parish and then the young people do very small fundraising events to support the activities.
The Deputy of St. John :
Do you know the balance of that split?
The Minister for Education:
I do not know whether Mark Rogers could help with that balance of the split or the position there?
Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Unpick the question a little bit more for me because the split is £150,000 and £11,000.
The Deputy of St. John :
Right, I am sorry I did not do the maths in relation to percentages. We have £161,000 going into that?
Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, it is about 7 per cent from the Parish and the rest from the Government, if my maths is vaguely correct.
The Deputy of St. John :
Wonderful. Given the importance of the project and the targeted work it carries out in police hotspots, are you satisfied that the current resourcing level to the project will continue to meet the demands?
[10:15]
The Minister for Education:
I have no reason to believe that it will not. This has not been raised with me by the principal youth officer in terms of whether the further demand will create more requirements. They do an absolutely fantastic job, particularly around our more vulnerable children. Not just in St. Helier but our Youth Service right across the board do really good work with our young people and children. If it was to be raised with me, if he did identify that there were further demands and there was further need in that area, of course we would have to look at it across the board and consider whether there was any further funding that could be put towards that. But at this present time, this is what is determined as the appropriate sum to support our young people.
The Deputy of St. John :
Thank you, Minister. The Chair is going to take over from me.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
One of the most significant parts of the Government Plan with Education is the Education Reform Programme. I think there is £7.9 million that has been allocated in 2021, £7.946 million that has been allocated. How will that allocated and broken down to achieve the objectives of the programme?
The Minister for Education:
We do have a full breakdown of the additional funding and what that looks like. You will know from the Independent School Funding Review there were a number of recommendations that were made to us. I will try to run through these as clearly and as quickly as I can but there are quite a few. For 2021 there will £300,000 to ensure that the 16 to 18 technical education is appropriately funded for future by levelling up per student funding in technical education and implementing the post-16 education review as well. There is also £145,000 for 2021 which will increase the funding available to schools and college to support students with most significant special educational needs. Now, there is slight little caveat to this particular area because one of the other recommendations in the report was, of course, doing an inclusion review, which we are embarking on a tendering process at the moment for that to start. That could potentially require further investment in that particular area. £250,000 will make low prior attainment a significant factor in determining funding allocations. So schools can focus resource on enabling children who fall behind to catch up. We have £60,000 for English as an additional language, £5.5 million, which is of course I mentioned before we had that deficit in our system but this will be a former transitional grant to give space for schools to reduce that deficit well, bring down that deficit. It will be linked to a curriculum-led financial planning model but that will be reviewed at the beginning of the year to ensure that all money is spent to the best benefit of the student. That is the most significant part of the £7.9 million. £394,000 is to increase Jersey school improvement capacity, with a mandate to deliver clear outcomes on quality of teaching. This will be a form of teacher excellence funds, like a training fund for our staff. We will also have £291,000 for uplift to Jersey Premium to support socioeconomic equality in the education system. £56,000 will go to strengthening the central educational psychology team, so all children have timely access to specialist help when they need it. £83,000 will go towards supporting mental health and well-being through a whole school approach, backed by a targeted training programme delivered within schools. Finally, £117,000 strengthening school financial governance and the broader introduction of financially skilled governing bodies and the introduction of cluster level business managers. I did say finally, that is not true. Finally, there is £750,000 for implementation costs. That has been put in there purely because our officers are already stretched in terms of business as usual - of course, we have the COVID requirement - so to ensure this programme gets off the ground and running and we can start from the beginning of January next year, that we have a team to ensure that this gets embedded and the changes that need to be made are changed with the appropriate amounts of money that we have identified here.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I note that the vast bulk of that money is to address the deficit. One of things I do not quite understand is are we going to, therefore, just simply have schools doing what they are doing now but not being in debt for doing it or will there be anything new in terms of increasing funding that will go directly towards the experience of the students in the classroom? There is a lot there in terms of I mean, £250,000 for implementation for officers, I do not think that is directly in the classroom.
There is quite a small amount, £145,000, for S.E.N. (Special Educational Needs). I think the concern is that if we were just dealing with a deficit are we moving forward or are we just standing still but not having schools in deficit?
The Minister for Education:
I will touch on that and then I will hand over to Sean to explain to you how this will work. Predominantly, absolutely, you are correct, the £5.5 million will cover what is at the moment a deficit but the important part of us dealing with that £5.5 million is we are almost 30 years out of date with our funding formula and our funding formula needs to recognise the needs of our students. Ensuring that we get that right and having forms of the curriculum-led financial planning consideration, we also need to look at our curriculum as well, which is another piece of work which is really important to ensure that education is absolutely right for all our children and our people, especially going into the future. If Sean can explain further on that? One of the main things that came out of the Independent School Funding Review was the most effective thing that you can do in terms of outcomes for education for students, is, of course, investing in your teachers and training. At the moment, next year will be roughly £394,000 but then that ramps up in 2022, if the Government Plan was to be agreed next year and that money was seen as necessary, to £1,345,000 in 2022. That is an important element here, and it is not just about the £5.5 million. If Sean can just explain and expand on how this might look differently, please?
Group Director, Education
Very happy to do so, Minister. Chair, you are absolutely right, the overwhelming bulk of the 2021 allocation, the £5.5 million, is to resolve system deficits. That is not to say, as you have asked the question, that we just carry on as we were. There is a significant review, as the Minister said, on the outdate school funding formula so the sense of curriculum-led financial planning is key, but we cannot wait for that work to be done for starting investment. If you read across the £5.5 million in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 is consistent. The other areas the Minister shared, putting low prior attainment, better funding for learners with English as an additional language, that is lighter in 2021 because we need to do work on the best spending of that additional resource to get it right. It is going into schools, special educational needs funding, the greater resource around inclusion in the broader sense. There is a mixed economy here. You focus very much on the 2021 figures but you will see from 2022, 2023, 2024, in those areas the significant investment goes up but we need to have really carefully worked out plans to best spend that. The deficit cannot wait and is being funded fully from year one.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
What does that deficit look like? It is schools spending money that they do not have because they need the basic things in order to function and then when you add all of that spending together it is a deficit of £5 million to the Department for Education, so now what will happen is they can spend that and not be in deficit, but what is different about what they are spending? To me it seems that for the next 4 years that deficit is included in the £11 million and it means that they are standing still in terms of just funding what they do now and the actual investment to improve and to add to what schools are doing is around £2 million and then around £6 million, not the £11 million because the deficit is written in. I think it is important we address that because there needs to be a real clarity on what that deficit means at the moment. Do you understand what I mean? I want to get my head around what the deficit looks like so that we know what the extra investment looks like.
Group Director, Education
In effect, and I will defer to the Minister and the Director General on this, schools have anticipated known and growing needs so, for example, the reasons for the overspend is that our special educational needs school provision has grown. Simply Mont a l'Abbe cares for the educational and wider needs of far more pupils than it did previously but they had a fixed funding model. Thanks to the advancement of medical sciences some children and young people are surviving conditions that they would not have, which is great news but the complexity of need, whether the child is in special school, an additional resource centre attached to a mainstream or mainstream itself, the additional wrap around care and resourcing is significant. We will better meet those needs and as we do that work up a funding formula that is more responsive to the curriculum offer we want that gives vocational, technical education the same status as academic under the Minister. It is twin-tracked, it is meeting known need and working towards getting a funding formula that is fit for purpose for the 21st century.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I fully understand the issues around Mont a l'Abbe and, yes, they absolutely do need more funding but what about the other secondary schools and the primary 11 to 16 schools in particular, many of which have been holding a deficit for years and the primary schools. From my experience and my knowledge of what is going on, they for many years have said: "We are struggling to make ends meet and struggling to resource." They run a deficit in order to do that but, again, this money is just paying for that deficit. What will be in addition to help them move forward or do you believe that addressing this deficit and then adding the figures that you have talked about - such as £145,000 across all schools for specials needs, which does not mean a lot for many schools, £300,000 for technical education post-16 - that is enough to move on and meet the targets within this plan that you want to achieve? It also says significance will be moved in the system and what will the education reform deliver. Is this enough money on top of simply getting rid of the deficit to deliver the Education Reform Programme, is the really important question underlying?
The Minister for Education:
If I can take that as Minister. This is a reform programme. The School Funding Review identified over £11 million overall for us put in place. We have gone through this bit by bit to identify what is possible in terms of deliverability next year. One of the things that we need to bear in mind is by covering the deficit that we have identified then the pressure, the negative pressure, that could be put on midyear if we are not covering that deficit in order to reduce that deficit could be detrimental to the outcomes of our students in any particular school. Some schools have much more demand than other schools. We are aware of that because of the needs of the pupils. In terms of the other parts, I think some of the significant things, although they are small amounts, things like having business managers in place, so it frees up the head teacher and the teachers to do their jobs in terms of teaching, what they came into the profession for, is fundamental. What we are going to be seeing next year is a start to rebuilding and changing some of the fundamental ways we do things, one of which being the funding formula that we have to do based on need. That is extremely important. That comes into that deficit piece. Recognising the need of the student and ensuring that everything is around them. The low prior attainment, like they have in the U.K. (United Kingdom), albeit only £250,000 next year, but that would be planned to start from the beginning of the academic year next year. Of course that is not 1st January, that will be 1st September. That is why there are some differences in terms of the numbers because there will be a huge piece of work working with head teachers, teachers, unions to resolve this funding formula piece next year, to ensure that we can run from September so that people see a difference in the schools and in the classrooms.
[10:30]
More significantly than that, from 1st September 2022 we would expect to see even more difference because some of the governance will be sorted out, our funding formula will be resolved, we will be in a much better position, whether that is supporting schools, having the right autonomy in place, it all comes together and that is why it is taken over that period of time. We do not have the capacity of people to put in place the requirements that are needed around the governance and the funding formula to do it all within the first 7 months of next year to be ready for 1st September. That is why we have gone through this very carefully, bit by bit, every penny to ensure that what we have been asking for in terms of growth is deliverable for 2021.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So to some extent this is a fund to maintain where we are so it does not get worse for schools in order that the work can be done to make improvement from 2021, is that a reasonable interpretation?
The Minister for Education:
I think it is. We will see some little differences there. The money is not that significant in some of the areas where we will see some difference. We will finally have some funding specifically for English as an additional language. We are going to have this new low prior attainment which we have not had before. That will start from September next year. It is putting us on a platform where - and I hate using this word because I think it means different things depending on how you use it, let us not get into a semantics debate like we did last week in the States - it is sustainable. We need to be on that sustainable footing first in order to move onwards and upwards from where we are in order to see that real outcome for our students. Yes, it is going to take time. Yes, that is unfortunate but we have to do this right because I think this is our one real good shot at it to get our system ready for the 21st century and support our students in exactly the right way we should be doing with well-being, mental health and a really good curriculum that sets them up for life.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I notice Deputy Doublet has a question but could I just ask one quick thing before I let Deputy Doublet step in? The performance indicators in 2020 may well be difficult to hit because of the academic year difference. If it is starting in September, higher attainment and achievement for Jersey's children and young people, you may not see that higher achievement until the following August when results come in, for example. If we are going not see the difference in these things from September, well-being and mental health, do agree that it may be difficult to see these performance indicators being hit given the structure of where we are and the timescale?
The Minister for Education:
Yes, I am disappointed that I was not able to have this in the Government Plan for this year so that we would see those outcomes sooner. This is going to take time. We are working with people, at the end of the day, and the demands that we have in our education system are significant. If we do not grapple hold of where we are at the moment and get ourselves on to some good level footing in order to advance and do better then we have failed before we have begun. We need to make sure we start off really well and really good, engaging with the very people on the front line that are doing this job day in, day out. I speak to them, I recognise absolutely the arguments that they make and the concerns that they face every single day with the job that they do and they do a fantastic job, but we need to get some of the systems that are not necessarily in the place where they should be, like you would see in probably many other countries, into a position where we can move onwards with that. In terms of the outcomes of the K.P.I.s (Key Performance Indicators) I do not think we are going to see anything overnight. It is not a case of clicking your fingers and it all magically gets better again. This is going to be real hard work, taking people with us and ultimately ensuring the culture is right as well.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour :
Minister, thank you for giving that extra detail. Of the things you listed, there are 2 things that I want to pick up on. One of them was cluster level business managers. I wanted to enquire whether any part of that project is modelled on the academy structures that we have seen in the U.K.?
The Minister for Education:
From my own personal view, I hope not, but I would like Seán to explain how he would see this working from a Jersey context.
Group Director, Education:
Thank you, Minister. Deputy Doublet , no, the thinking on using school business managers to free up head teachers and school leaders to focus on the core, the development of the curriculum, development of staff, the well-being, care, guidance and support of students, raising standards, is well tried-and-tested and indeed predates the academisation movement in the U.K. There are lots of models of the work of clusters and groups of schools together. Jersey is in the happy position of being able to step back and have a good look. In the 2 school partnerships in primary in the west of the Island we are already piloting some work of shared business management function, and clearly that is a local partnership model, not based on that from elsewhere, although we of course learn from everywhere.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
As you said you have piloted this to an extent what evidence have you got in terms of outcomes for the children? Do you have any evidence yet that that approach improves outcomes for children?
Group Director, Education:
If it is helpful, some of our head teachers have been experimenting with structures, so D'Auvergne School for example in the last couple of years moved away from a formal deputy head and invested the money in 2 roles, one was a school business manager and another was an enhanced safeguarding lead role. In terms of feedback from the school and the head teachers that enhanced the capacity of the head with the school business manager to focus on the curriculum and outcomes for children and on the competence side it meant that the safeguarding and wider care guidance of children improved because there was a dedicated senior role liaising with the S.E.N.C.O. (Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator) and other care roles within the school. With the partnership model the south-western partnership between La Moye Primary School and Bel Royal School has just appointed a business manager across both schools again to allow the head to focus on better outcomes for children and young people. This is work in progress.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Is it fair to say that you will be collecting some evidence of the outcomes of that? I hope the Minister would agree it is important to have evidence of improved outcomes if we are investing in additional staff.
The Minister for Education:
I suggest that should be the cornerstone of our Public Finances (Jersey) Law. We should be responsible for measuring anything that we are spending taxpayers' money on. We are not asking for this money to throw at another problem. We are asking for this money to improve the system that we have at the moment and to do better with where we are. The world has significantly changed since the last time we had funding formula and the demands are extremely different to what we have seen particularly over the last 20 years. It continues to change and we have to learn from different jurisdictions but apply the Jersey test to everything that we do. Measuring when we are spending money and ensuring that we are accountable, that the reason why we asked for the money in the first place is achieving what we expect it to do, absolutely. We are going to have to make sure that is the case and that is why the implementation team is really important. The business as usual is significant for our officers, so having the implementation team in order to evidence and measure this and make sure that it is doing exactly what it says on the tin and what we are asking for is vitally important, especially when we go into the next Government Plan next year and ask for the next tranche of funding in order to improve further.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Can I ask you, Minister, to commit to finding out the views of staff? Once this starts to be put into place more across schools I think in a similar way to managers doing appraisals on staff to help staff understand how they are performing, I think there is a lot of value in asking staff lower down how managers higher up are performing. They are the people working with them. I do not think that is something that is done routinely. I could be wrong, but if it is not, is that something you could commit to doing going forward?
The Minister for Education:
Education is a people service. In order to get the kinds of outcomes and the changes that we need to see with regard to education we have got to take people with us, we have got to listen to the positives and the negatives, but ultimately it is about doing what is right for the student at the end of all this. Some of the outcomes you might not see for 16 years as an example but by putting that investment in at the right point, fingers crossed you cannot guarantee it because like I say we are human but will have a significant effect on that student's potential and outcome and what they are aspiring to achieve as individuals. In order to do that we have got to take people with us and we work very closely with the unions as it is. We will be working closely with the head teachers. On the back of that I would hope that the head teachers will be working very closely with their own teachers in their own schools, which I know many of them already do.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Will you make sure that staff do have an opportunity to give feedback on managers and how managers are performing?
The Minister for Education:
I do not see why they do not necessarily do that. I can understand sometimes in certain cultures it can be difficult to do so. I will ask Seán to commit to that as the lead manager for head teachers and his requirement, but we have got to listen to the front line, what the people who are on the ground doing the work on our behalf are seeing and what they are experiencing and their input into how things can be better.
Group Director, Education:
Absolutely one of the big ambitions of the Education Reform Programme in the round is that we improve the governance of all our work and the way that the specific leads of each of these work streams were set up is engagement. We have talked with the unions already about how we will get their input. The governance of our schools, for example, is much bigger than governing bodies. The performance management of staff in the best organisations you get upward feedback all the time from the workforce to the leadership. All of this is under review as you will know under the work of my conversations, my goals, as to the current model for performance review in the States that is part now of the school system.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you. So just a yes or no, you are confirming what the Minister has said there about consulting staff throughout schools on the performance of managers?
Group Director, Education:
Yes, it certainly is part of our contribution to reviewing the performance management of all of our staff. That is something that we think should be happening.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Will that happen going forward?
Group Director, Education:
We are part of the Government of Jersey and we give feedback into the evolution of the performance management process.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I am not happy with that answer. I did ask for a yes or no.
Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I suspect the reason that Seán is choosing his words carefully is it is difficult to give a straight yes or no to one bit of the workforce when our policies apply to the whole of the workforce. For example, we have the Be Heard survey that is going to I think be reporting shortly, so there are opportunities already through surveys like that, that give staff the opportunity to comment on their managers, both immediately above them and at the top of the organisation. If we are going to introduce an additional element to what we do for staff in schools, a perfectly reasonable thing for the Minister to ask us to do, we need to also make sure that it is consistent with wider Government policy.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay. I would like to ask the Minister to come back to us on that, because it is clear that the Minister agrees with the line of questioning that that should be happening. I can see there are some perhaps policy issues that need to be ironed out. Minister, could you come back to the panel on that, please?
The Minister for Education:
Yes, I am more than happy to. To make it quite clear, we work very closely with our union representatives around our schools and our colleges. We listen to them and we work with them very well. We work directly with teachers on the Jersey Curriculum Council as well. I am more than happy to come back to you in black and white to explain what that position is and give you some comfort around this question and the answers that have been given.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Could I add something to that, Louise? I have been sitting here and you have triggered off a number of thoughts in my head. There are a couple of things there. First of all, is the staff survey ready to go out again? That would be an important one and perhaps a vehicle for this. The second thing is as you mentioned, Seán, a good organisation will have this sort of feedback from the bottom up already in place, so it does not seem to be as opposite as was suggested there, i.e., these structures should already be in place.
[10:45]
I suppose what I am saying is that given that £117,000 on business managers and £145,000 on S.E.N. what will it look like for classroom teachers that would improve their lot if there is a business manager in place? What will they not do, what will heads of department not do, which means that they can focus more on teaching? We have heard this a lot and I am a very practical person and I like examples, and I think that would help us to understand what the impacts of this would be. Part of that then would be that feedback that can be given about the success or not of those posts that have been created, which may well be very positive.
The Minister for Education:
Would you be happy for Seán to answer that, Chair?
Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, of course.
Group Director, Education:
Thank you, Chair. It is a very good question. We have not worked up the model. I gave examples to Deputy Doublet of existing practice in some smaller primary schools in the Jersey context that have not had this benefit. There are some key things that must be done in schools. We need to know that we are compliant with health and safety legislation, with disability access, with legionella, with a whole raft of things. The question is the smaller the organisation it tends to more likely be done by the leader of an organisation. With a big secondary school with a head of department they may be sharing some of these other duties that in the precious hours of their working week they could have been better focused on teaching and learning and outcomes for young people. The modelling is not that some of these things are unnecessary or overly bureaucratic, they must be done, but should it be done by somebody whose prowess is in educational leadership or in teaching and learning? That is the model we will be exploring. The sums are quite modest but the driver must be better outcomes for children and young people beginning, middle and end.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I cannot picture what this is going to do apart from help head teachers. Does it mean that head teachers will be back in the classroom a bit more? That might be a really good idea. I do not understand how that is going to impact on teachers in the classroom. I think we need to move on and perhaps come back to it a bit later. Deputy Doublet , do you want to start your section of questions there?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, I can do. I wanted to ask about pupil premium. If we do have time at the end perhaps we can come back to that, because I know, Chair, that you are looking at the clock. If we do not have time to come back to that perhaps the officers could send us some more information on that particular item, please. For transparency I am a member of the Early Years Policy Development Board, and have had a conversation with the Minister this morning about the operation of the board, which of course due to COVID everybody will understand has not really been operational this year. I will ask some questions about early years today because I have not been working on any policy in early years this year. I wanted to be transparent about that. Minister, what specific actions will you be implementing in early years' settings as part of this Education Reform Programme?
The Minister for Education:
The early years' focus of the programme will be determined by the findings of what will be the development board. I know it has been delayed, it has been extremely frustrating and I can only apologise to everyone for that. The officers that we had have been taking part in some extremely difficult times with the whole COVID situation. We are hoping for a report before the end of the year. Of course we are going to have to have a couple of meetings to discuss that before it reports, because it is only appropriate that we do that. It will also be informed by the Independent School Funding Review where in particular it said: "A longer-term recommendation was to realign funding spending to the early years as resources allow" so this Education Reform Programme will have what is really important, although we are saying a 4-year, we have a short-term, medium-term, and long- term requirement because as I said before these things just do not happen overnight and there is a lot of work to do behind the scenes and on the front line to ensure that we get this right.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Thank you. Can you give an update on an early years' policy? When that will come forward and how that links in with the Education Reform Programme?
The Minister for Education:
The Early Years Policy Development Board as mentioned I hope would report by the end of this year. Of course there is funding in place in the Government Plan specifically around the early years. I have to stress here I took on the Early Years Policy Development Board because I believe it is absolutely, fundamentally important that we look at that zero to 5 years piece. I know there are lots of different ways of referring to the early years, but I have to stress that as Minister for Education I am fairly limited around the funding models in my department, because of course I am responsible for the Nursery Education Fund, we are responsible for the registration of day care for children and then that is really it, the 3 to 4. We have a fantastic working relationship of course with the Jersey Child Care Trust and they do some fantastic work specifically for children who are younger, the age of 2, for special educational needs. That programme is doing exceptionally well. Of course it goes earlier than that. There is the whole 1,001 days that got missed. All of this is wrapped up in the Early Years Policy Development Board and there will be a requirement for us to look at how whatever the end objective is in terms of that report at the end of the year, because we are going to have to meet in order to ensure that that report comes out appropriately, a lot of it will I think spike out into different areas. Whether that is the Minister for Health and Social Services, the Minister for Social Security, whether it is myself as Minister for Education, there are a number of things that we need to pull together here. I think that is one of the bonuses of the Early Years Policy Development Board.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
You mentioned the Jersey Child Care Trust. In relation to the current programme that we are discussing they made the following comment: "We would support a more pluralistic approach to early years' services, better integrating health, education and social security to support and enable all children and families to thrive. This would contribute significantly to the world-class system that is aspired to." Given that you have just mentioned yourself that there is only so much you can do because your responsibility is 5-plus, what would your view be on that quote from the Jersey Child Care Trust?
The Minister for Education:
I think it is really important and maybe the Director General for the Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department can expand on this. Of course he looks across the Children's Services, our mental health services as well for children and adolescents and he also looks over the education side of things. We have got a huge duty. I am not trying to dissuade in any way my responsibility as a Minister for Education or as a Member of the States Assembly, but it is really important. The point that they make is this bringing together and working as a team between the Health, Social Security, Education Departments, Children's Services. All of those areas need to be working really well together in order to have really good outcomes for our children, no matter what background they have. Predominantly that focuses on the family and the support around the family. You can do something in one setting and support those children in that one setting, but they go home and if the family do not have the right mechanisms or support in place then that really good hard work that has been instilled could be lost very easily. We do have a way to go and I would like to see us more collaborative in our approach between the departments and how we work. I think there are some questions in some policies and I have seen that doing the work before we went into the whole COVID situation, how each policy could potentially create negativity on to another policy or on to the individual. I agree with the statement that they make. It is important that we focus on the family, not just the individual, but to get from point A to point B. We have been talking about this for many years and I suppose the Director General might have something further to say with regards to the areas of right help, right time and the early help work that they are doing there. That might help us answer the question a little bit better for you.
Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think the Minister has covered it really well. I would only emphasise that we need to continue to strengthen the connections between the school system and the wider early help system. Those connections are already there, but they can be and should be stronger. Despite the difficult year that we have had and no doubt the difficult year we have got coming around finances we still have some more investment that we can make in early help and some of that will absolutely be about making sure that what happens in the integrated services world that Susan Devlin is responsible for is nonetheless wholly connected to the work that schools themselves do. For that matter, it also provides a proper relationship with the statutory end of the Children's Service where we only want children who need to enter the statutory system entering the statutory system. I am not sure that there is much more I would say, because the Minister has covered it. It is much more about emphasising the importance of continuing to build those really strong links between the school system and the early help system and making sure that for example services like the Children and Families Hub are seen as covering all of the services that sometimes parents need in order to help their children thrive, whether it is looking into the early support that you get in school, whether it is looking into respite support, whether it is providing activities out of school, or whether it is just giving information, advice and guidance on how to be supported well in your parenting. I think the Minister has covered it really well. The premium that the department is slowly but surely bringing is that we are putting together that education and that early help piece in a way that has not been brought together previously with more investment, reduced but nonetheless more investment, even though some of that investment has been curtailed because of the cost of COVID.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Can I ask the Minister her view on the situation with health visitors? Looking at this quote it strikes me that Family Nursing and Home Care, who provide health visitors for all children up to the age of 5, are the service that has some real power to tie these areas together. Is there sufficient funding for that and does the Minister continue to support that service?
The Minister for Education:
I recognise how important the Family Nursing and Home Care team is, specifically around the family piece especially in those early days. Even if you are a mother or father to not just the first child but second, third, we have heard this in some of the really good engagement work that went on informing us in the early years' policy development side of things. In terms of the funding, it does not sit under my remit. It sits under the Minister for Health and Social Service's remit, as I understand it. Somebody can tell me if I am wrong there, but I am sure it sits under the Minister for Health and Social Service's remit. I think that is the benefit by bringing together the views and the information that we have heard from different areas, whether that is mothers and fathers, whether that is people working within the Children's Service or within many other what are called charity and support groups that we have in place, is that it is very clear that we could be doing a much better working together. One of my concerns with the Family Nursing and Home Care, and I think it is recognised in many areas when you really deep-dive into these situations, is whereby there is not necessarily the capacity that is needed for the town area as there is for outside of the town area. That could be
really detrimental because we know, especially from an educational point of view, some of our more vulnerable and some of our more low socio-economic children and families are in St. Helier . I think that could be potentially where, if there was further investment applied, that could be a focus. I am not going to commit to that right now because we want to report from the Early Years Policy Development Board and it has to be a recommendation to the Minister for Health and Social Services, of course.
Assistant Minister for Education:
On the back of that with Deputy Doublet 's point the capacity for health care assistance is required in the community, just because I am in Health and it is under my remit, which is why we have in the Government Plan under the health section put in money, with the way that they manage the budgets, for the S.K.I.P.L(? 11:00:08) qualification. That will provide more senior nurses to be trained and that is to provide Family Nursing and Health Care with more health care assistants or senior nurses to do that work in the community. It is happening in another remit and I hope that provides clarity.
[11:00]
The Deputy of St. John :
We are going to ask a few questions about the Jersey Youth Service and their efforts to assist children who have additional languages, which makes life difficult for them. I see you put a bid in for £150,000 per year up to 2024. How is that £150,000 going to be utilised within this service?
The Minister for Education:
The £150,000 for the Youth Service for English as an additional language was an amendment to the last Government Plan by Deputy Inna Gardiner . The funding is split one senior youth worker, one youth worker, 18 hours per week for sessional support worker time and £10,000 to support curriculum costs for activities, trips and visits.
The Deputy of St. John :
Thank you for that. It was mooted that you were going to set up a research project to establish exactly what was required. How is that project going or indeed has it yet commenced and what is the timescale for that project to report?
The Minister for Education:
The timescale for the research project will begin in 2021, so the first quarter will be staff recruitment, the third and second quarter will be research and engagement with children, young people and families, and of course the last quarter will be reporting the findings and beginning that particular delivery.
The Deputy of St. John :
Is it likely that you will get a review of those findings towards the end of 2021?
The Minister for Education:
Yes. It is identified in quarter 4, so it could be any time in October, November, December next year where we will have a report with the findings and potentially being able to start delivering. Of course if things move a bit quicker that will be great but everyone is extremely busy so giving a more realistic timeline like I have given there is probably more appropriate.
The Deputy of St. John :
Is this project likely to roll over into 2022 and not commence as a project until 2022?
The Minister for Education:
In terms of the future funding requirements we have identified that we would like to have that funding in place for the 4-year period but like everything every year we go back to the Government Plan and we have those discussions. It will be reviewed as part of the next Government Plan in 2024, I believe, but we would like to see that funding continue throughout.
The Deputy of St. John :
When will you be engaging the staff that are going to deliver this service?
The Minister for Education:
The first quarter will be staff recruitment and then quarter 2 and 3 of the research project is researching and engaging with children, young people and families. Of course that will involve the very people that have to support and deliver this particular project.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I wanted to change the subject to the COVID-19 schools' catch-up programme and £904,000 has been identified for 2021. Can you explain how that will be apportioned out between different services and initiatives?
The Minister for Education:
We have £445,333 this year, so the remainder of this year, £112,000 is for the OLEVI teaching programme. We have £333,333 for the small group tuition. In 2021 the specific question that you asked me about, the £904,000, £224,000 is for the OLEVI teaching programme, £666,667 is for the small group tuition and there will be just over £13,000 for I.T. (Information Technology) support, which amounts to the total of £904,000.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
What review or needs analysis has been undertaken to establish this level of funding?
The Minister for Education:
Our standards and assessment team have carried out a Learning at Home report. This was published last week and it has been shared with yourselves as a panel and the public. This was the basis for identifying the funding required to inform that business case.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
What are the key performance indicators for this programme?
The Minister for Education:
For teaching and learning, our ambition is train up to 500 teachers through the OLEVI training programme. These teachers have been selected by all Government of Jersey schools with 100 per cent completion rate expected. In addition there is a focus on specific literacy and maths' training. As part of this emphasis on training and development, 5 teachers from St. Helier schools will be trained in a specialist reading programme. They will target as part of their training 40 children who will be supported with their reading. Finally, I think there is online maths' training as well to be offered to all primary school teachers.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Am I correct in understanding that funding starts from year one?
The Minister for Education:
The £904,000 as I understand would start from the beginning of 2021, but we have funding in for the remaining ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Sorry, Minister. So from year one as in key stage 1, so the children who ...
The Minister for Education:
I do apologise. I will hand over to Seán to explain the workings of it in more detail for you. Seán, if you could take that question, please.
Group Director, Education:
Certainly, Minister. Deputy , just to say of the constituent parts, the teacher training programme is for all teachers across all year groups. I think you are referring to the small group and one-to-one tuition programme that does indeed start with year one because it has got a specific focus on English and mathematics that from the Learning at Home report it is a different curriculum focus from the early years' foundation stage.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Okay, so there is an understanding there that you cannot really catch up on things that are missed in the early years. Is that correct?
Group Director, Education:
I think you would expect from your own professional background, Deputy Doublet , we have a more holistic approach in the early years, but the investment in teacher development is as much for that key stage as all other key stages.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
With that understanding that you cannot really tutor early years' children in anything they have missed, is there an understanding within the department that early years' children should be especially protected from any measures going forward around COVID?
Group Director, Education:
In terms of the safety and well-being and the mitigation schools put in place they are incredibly strong with younger children. Indeed with colleagues in this meeting, senior officers, we are going next into the Scientific and Technical Advisory Cell to continue reviewing the measures to keep children and young people safe. In terms of new investment in the Government Plan that will support the low prior attainment function, which is a new constituent part, and will benefit children entering nursery, reception and year one, the 3 youngest years of the primary school age range. In terms of investment money to come in ...
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Sorry, to clarify my question, as I understand it this funding is to almost make up for harm that has been done to children as a result of the measures taken to mitigate against the spread of the virus. Obviously we do have to take those measures, but what I am asking is that is there consideration being given to children who in the early years, because we cannot simply catch them up once the virus is over, is there special consideration being given to their well-being and to their education and development needs when you are considering COVID measures going forward rather than having to catch them up at a later date?
Group Director, Education:
I am not sure I understand the question. The Learning at Home report, which as the Minister said was shared - I think we gave you a briefing with the lead authors of that as a Scrutiny Panel as well as publishing last week - was very clear that the impact not so much of COVID itself but the enforced closure of schools in the main you well know that all of our schools stayed open for remote teaching and in situ for the children of critical workers and some vulnerable groups, but it did impact on certain groups more than others, those children in families with English as an additional language, those with assessed special educational needs and those eligible for Jersey Premium. Our planning piece does take account of that with all of our COVID advice. What we do very much want to do and very much under the Minister is not just nursery and reception classes at schools but all of the early years' settings to continue the hard work with the many sectors, the private, voluntary and independent sectors that do early years' provision is to keep everywhere open. The learning and care experience for children is a social one. It is very hard to replicate in the home or remotely. I do not think you can, so all of our mitigations are to keep nurseries and school classes open as safe places. That is the daily work of school leaders and nursery leaders. I am not sure if I answered your question, Deputy Doublet , but we really want to keep everywhere open and safe.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, I recognise this. What I am looking for really is some reassurance because the Minister has put in place this work to assist children who have been harmed by the pandemic, but of course the nature of tutoring and so on cannot apply to early years. I want to know that the same efforts are being made either in advance and not harming the children or whether other catch-up things or some other mitigation can be put in place so that early years are getting the same attention as other ages of children.
Group Director, Education:
I think that is a really good point and that is why I started to reference the so-called low prior attainment element that will put extra money in schools in the youngest 3 year groups. We will be working with schools, foundation stage leads, head teachers, special needs co-ordinators, on how best to spend that additional resource. It is, as you say, separate from a tutoring programme because that really is not relevant to 3, 4 and 5 year-olds.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Minister, at what stage will you review the effectiveness of this programme across all the age groups and identify whether any further funding might be required beyond what is currently being bid for?
The Minister for Education:
In terms of reviewing, I think it is a case-by-case basis, looking at who particularly requires extra support over that period of time. As I explained with regards to the K.P.I.s, ensuring that they are being followed, any future funding requirement for the catch-up programme is going to be assessed against the programme progress, as per the K.P.I.s I mentioned. We would have to source that from within the Education budget or a successful application for additional funds as part of the next Government Plan or redirection of in-year contingency. That is where we would be left if we require further funding and the programme has been successful but needs further work.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Do you think there is capacity within contingencies anywhere to quickly put funds into this area if it is needed?
The Minister for Education:
In terms of capacity, we have really gone through our funding with a very fine tooth comb in terms of Education budgets but under the Public Finances Law there are abilities if need be, and let us say and let us hope that it is not the case, but if COVID was to continue there will hopefully be a route to continue applying to Treasury should we see the harm that it might be creating to our children and young people and ask for that extra capacity to be put in place. We would have to identify that with a business case and submit it, be interrogated about the numbers and the delivery. I think there is some room for manoeuvre but unfortunately it is extremely bureaucratic. Of course we will recognise that if we are doing better with our spending in our own budget and we can utilise that funding for these particular programmes then we will, but at the moment with what we have gone through with a very fine tooth comb is making sure that we have got the right amount for delivering what we expect to deliver next year and if we have extra money then we will consider that.
[11:15]
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Prior to your answer Seán mentioned the private sector organisations and he mentioned keeping settings open. I wanted to confirm that that is definitely a priority for you, Minister, going forward.
The Minister for Education:
Definitely. One of the main parts of the winter plan strategy that was released - I think it was last week, I do not know, each day rolls into the other at the moment - one of the main things that I made very clear to the Competent Authorities' meeting, the Emergencies Council meeting and my fellow colleagues on the Council of Ministers, I expect everything to be done to mitigate against us closing schools and nurseries during this period. I know it is going to be really difficult but I think that is where having the separate year groups and having the bubbles that we have enables us to keep the majority of children in school at this particularly difficult time.
Deputy , can I ask a question before we go any further? I had something on the OLEVI programme. We are getting further and further away from it and I wanted to ask something. Sorry, Louise. You mentioned that at one and the same time 5 staff in St. Helier would be trained but you also said that all staff would be trained. Is that going to be a system of cascading down from staff that are trained? Just a practical note here.
The Minister for Education:
Yes, I mean if I can ask Seán to explain the workings of how that is going to work, I think it is probably better as he is direct line management to the teachers.
Group Director, Education:
Just to say, as you very well know again with your professional background as a senior teacher, often the model of continuous professional development is somebody gets trained in expertise and then cascades. That is not the case with the OLEVI programme. We have been running the programme in pilot form to very good effect and with really positive feedback from teachers. This funding allows that to be expanded, but the teachers are fully in the training and development programme and this programme seeks to train 500 teachers through OLEVI training in this phase of its investment.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Is that in primary and secondary schools and is that training happening in normal school time or after school?
Group Director, Education:
It is in normal school time, so part of the funding provides for the supply cover to allow the teachers to engage in this evidence-based programme. We did a great deal of research, the head of the school improvement advisory service commissioned this work but he and I are very familiar with the work of Sir George Berwick and others who have done a great deal of work in staff-to-staff development and it is a well-proven programme. This very welcome funding expands that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Are supply staff available to do that? Are you having any problems with finding supply staff to get staff out in order to get training? This is an urgent need because things are happening right now.
Group Director, Education:
Nothing has been reported to myself, Deputy Ward . Indeed, this is a welcome programme because the Scrutiny Panel have rightly raised concerns for supply teachers, an important part of the
workforce who lost a great deal of work, some of them. We did have a support function with those to fund them as if they had been working, but this is a welcome input. No reports thus far, although we remain very aware that there are concerns with the breadth and depth of the supply list in Jersey for primary, secondary.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Just one other thing. You have sparked things off in my mind, I am afraid. We talk about schools as a whole, and I think the Deputy has made a very good point about the difference between early years and then you go up to post-16 where you effectively have adults. In terms of looking at the training programme, one, is it directed towards those different key stages including the early years but in a different way? Second, in terms of schools and the possibility of the effect of COVID do you recognise it may be very different for much older children or young adults? We are seeing a difference, I think, in the action of the virus among those past 16, 17, 18. Are you prepared for that with this programme and possible effects later on?
Group Director, Education:
I will answer that in part but defer to the Minister and colleagues. Absolutely. In meetings last week with Dr. Ivan Muscat and the meeting that I think referenced followed this for some of us with S.T.A.C. (Scientific and Technical Advisory Cell) it is clear that the virus does not look at chronological age, but it does tend to be treating older children, young people, 15 to 18 year-olds, rather differently. We have seen in the experience last week of students in years 11, 12 and 13 and the spread of the virus, not within schools. There is no evidence of that thus far, either for inbound travel or other social settings perhaps in the half-term. Knowing that the scientific evidence informed us in terms of health we are mitigating. Remote learning is in place for some of our mid and older teenagers at the moment and you will be aware Highlands College for example is moving some of their teaching model to remote learning. We are responding with learning and planning programmes as we get more evidence about the manifestation of COVID, as we should. I am no expert on the science of the epidemiology but we are responding with very fulsome public health advice, daily.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you. Deputy Doublet , did you have any more you wanted to put? We have still got 10 minutes.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Perhaps we should move on to the final category and we can ask the last couple of questions that we have got there.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you. I was going to ask something about the reorganisation of secondary schools. There is no business case in 2020 for this project. £5 million is identified in 2024. Can you provide an outline of what this project entails and what does the £5 million in 2024 relate to? I ask because it is important that we see how these Government Plans extend out, particularly in the reorganisation of schools.
The Minister for Education:
You will recall the Independent School Funding Review where they referred to policy option 3. Right at the bottom of that they referred to: "The Government of Jersey could conduct an initial scoping exercise to establish the potential for mergers or closer working and this exercise would provide insight about the level of saving that could be possible and therefore allow us to make a decision about how the costs of managing a consultation programme are outweighed by the potential benefits to the system." So we are going to have to carry out and we should carry out, it is appropriate that we do considering that report has established a consideration for us to take account of we are going to have to do a scoping exercise that will be required to establish any potential for mergers that do or do not exist. I think that is really important because we do not want to set any hares running with this particular area, but it is important that we take account of what the possibilities are. I do not know whether if Keith is still here with us he can explain the £5 million for 2024. He is extremely helpful when it comes to capital and major project work that we do within the Education Department.
Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:
Thank you, Minister. As the Minister said there needs to be a great amount of work done on this, Chair, to look at what those opportunities are and the identification of an amount in the future capital programme is really there as a point in time for us to work to. If you are going to ask how that £5 million is going to be spent now we would not be able to answer that because it really depends on feasibility work that would commence from 2021 and will be tied in with the Education Reform Programme and part of the early discussion about the implementation team again will be considering these longer-term policy options and this being identified within the funding review as being something of note and worth attention. It is simply a place-marker for the future. I think it shows the amount of money that if there was to be some additionality to our secondary school estate it would need to be of a significant sum and I think that is what it shows.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
When you say "additionality" are you referring to extra build for particular provision or are you talking about something that would be needed to add to one school if there was talk of any form of merger? I understand about not setting hares running; I get that, but I think it is important because the money is there and we have had the review, which is in the public domain. Are we talking about perhaps what would be necessary if schools were to merge to improve one of the schools? Is that the type of area we are looking at?
Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:
If there was to be a closer alignment between schools and potential to changes within the curriculum that could then lead to additional costs because you would need to potentially increase the size of certain sites. Whether that is through other provisions that are added, for additional pupils there. It just gives that option. If that is what the feasibility would identify that would then be a possibility.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Okay. I think that is all I have got on that. We have got 5 minutes left. Deputy Doublet , you had a general question that you wanted to ask. Do you want to ask that one?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes. I wanted the Minister to finish by outlining any particular bids that perhaps were not successful or anything in an ideal world that she would have added to this and may in future add to a future Government Plan?
The Minister for Education:
I thank the Deputy for the question. This has not been the easiest job to try to get some of this funding in place. I know we are in a really tricky situation when it comes to our public finances but I think it is absolutely important that we recognise investment in education will go far, not just for the short-term but for the long-term, for the betterment of everybody, not just the individuals who receive that. It is important also to recognise that education just does not stop at 16, or 18. I mentioned before particularly around the Education Reform Programme there was some backwards and forwards about how and what that funding looked like, and myself and my officers who I am really grateful to, have gone through this really carefully. I say that because I did have to go a S.T.A.R. (Secondary Tertiary Alignment Resource) training bar and justify the reasonings and expectations for the funding, just as I have done with you today around the reform programme. It is extremely important that we get this right. I believe the money that we have got for next year is absolutely deliverable, because there are a number of things that have to be done in the first instance to ensure that the funding is targeted and focused in the right areas. What we have been able to do and I hope that is the case in next year's Government Plan, you will see that a large, significant portion of the funding from the School Funding Review will predominantly be seen in the 2022 funding year. Of course some of the other problems that we have got as Education are that we have an academic year compared to a financial year, which slightly skews some of the ways that the figures look and what that means. I am in a comfortable position and I am grateful to my colleagues. It has not been an easy situation but I think we are definitely on the road next year and will start to see some action
happening, some changes being made and I really hope that our own staff and our own people recognise the importance and value that I have for their profession and the real hard work. No doubt about it, this year has been particularly difficult. I cannot off the top of my head say anything in particular. I think you caught me off guard a little bit but there is nothing that jumps out in front of my head that says there is a particular funding amount that was not put in place that was required in order to get us through the next phase.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have got a question, if you are finished, Louise.
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
I have got one final, but it can be a final final, after you have asked yours, if you would like.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Given we have talked about today the need for cover for the OLEVI project and the fact that we have seen some of the older children in schools with COVID and so on, and that £13 million was put away for test and trace, do you think that teachers and staff in schools should be given greater access to testing and that we need to be considering their well-being a little more, given that they may be more at risk? We absolutely need them to be there if we are going to keep our children in school, we are going to get the training done and we are going to get the catch-up programme going. I think at the moment they can have a test every 8 weeks. Do you think that needs to be a little bit more available to them to some extent as much as health workers?
[11:30]
The Minister for Education:
Deputy , this was something that I am invited to go to the Competent Authorities' meeting. I do not have a vote, I am not a Competent Authorities Minister, but it is something I raised as a concern. I was given categorically that although it has been set in certain times for different professions and different industries 8 weeks is not set in stone. I also raised the issue - bearing in mind that we have the different term dates and the holidays and all those types of things that are happening, seeing how this plays out and what happens, particularly what we have seen in the last week - of how we ensure absolutely the health and well-being of our staff and our students as well. I know that there are some young people who are particularly anxious. I know that from my own personal experience of what I am seeing and hearing, so we have to be alive to that and recognise that. I do not think anything can be set in stone. I think it is a moving feast and we have to be on the ball all the time. I am absolutely confident in my officers, Seán, Mark and Keith, that they are on top of this and that any issues we will be right there to resolve it as soon and as quickly as possible.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is great. Louise, do you want to finish off with a question?
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :
Yes, I wanted to give the Minister the opportunity to speak directly to children. I know she agrees with me on the value of the voice of the child and on speaking directly to children. We have talked a lot about the theory of plans for the next year and funding for the next year. I wanted the Minister to speak directly to the children of the Island and to say perhaps what her hopes are for them for the next year and what message she is sending to them with her parts of the Government Plan.
The Minister for Education:
Thank you, Deputy , for the opportunity. It is a really difficult year; 2020 is not a year that I think any of us particularly want to stay in at this precise moment in time. It has been really horrendous for some and in Jersey we are a really close-knit and good community, I believe, and we all look after each other. I know that we do not always see eye-to-eye as individuals but I think we are always there for each other when we need a helping hand. I would like to see, I would like to hope for 2021 and I cannot make this happen through the Government Plan, but I hope COVID goes away and I hope that we have some form of resolution to the situation that we see. What we will hopefully start seeing is more investment from September next year. I can guarantee that. We will see I hope where teachers are feeling more valued and therefore feel more able and supported in terms of how they support the children and young people in our Island, particularly when we hear about being overworked and the extra resources and the extra time commitment, especially with all the demands that are happening now. I hope to see us really get on and deal with what we call the inclusion review, recognising that no matter what your ability, no matter what your situation is, whether that is a mental health, or physical health, any form of well-being requirement, that it comes to the fore, focusing on people and people start seeing outcomes. It may not be totally obvious right at the beginning. I think they will see more of that in 2022. If they are not feeling it then I know for a fact, because I get emails from students, that I have absolutely no doubt at all that they have a voice, they will contact me. They have contacted me during COVID and I have encouraged them to do that, for all of us. There are 49 Members but I am more than happy to play my part specifically not just as a States Member but as Minister for Education. It is vitally important that they are listened to.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you very much. I am conscious of the time. Unless there is anything anyone else wants to add, Deputy Pointon, if you have any other questions or anyone else?
No, I do not.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
If there is anything you want to say, Minister, or if you have got any questions for us, which is always an interesting one at the end to have.
The Minister for Education:
You do not want to start asking me to ask you questions, Chair. I used to be a member of Scrutiny and it is a bit of a forte of mine. I just want to say thank you very much for your time today. I hope that the answers that we have given create a lot more clarity around what we are trying to do with regards to the funding in the Government Plan and, as always, our door is always open to you to discuss any particular issues or concerns that you may have.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you. The time has flown by so we will call the meeting to an end and say thank you to everyone for their time today. Thank you very much.
[11:35]