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OneGov Review Panel OneGov
Witness: The Chief Minister
Thursday, 23rd July 2020
Panel:
Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour (Chair) Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence
Witnesses:
Senator J.A.N. Le Fondré, The Chief Minister
Mr. C. Parker, Chief Executive
Mr. J. Quinn, Chief Operating Officer
Ms. C. Madden, Chief of Staff
Mr. M. Grimley, Group Director, People and Corporate Services
Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour (Chair):
Good afternoon. Thank you, everybody, for joining this public hearing with the Chief Minister, Chief Executive and other bodies making up the Government as a continuation of the OneGov Review Panel public hearing part 2. This of course is a Scrutiny hearing, so all normal Scrutiny functions apply. We are still meeting remotely, of course, so in a moment we will ask everybody to reintroduce yourselves. This is for an hour; it continues on where we left off last time. There are a series of questions that each Member will ask. I just need to remind everybody that we have only got an hour. It is a very busy day for all, so again if we can keep questions to a short, punchy mode and obviously answers, of course - Chief Minister and everybody responding - as succinct as possible so we can make sure that we get everybody off on time. Lastly, also just I mentioned at the end of the last hour that we did, from my perspective, just to remind you I am the new Chair of this Review Panel, so I am very much picking up where the previous panel left off, so I am still in learning mode, so to speak. Also for public benefit, when we are talking jargon, so to speak, if we could refrain from that or explain, that would be really helpful. Bearing all of that in mind, let us reintroduce everybody, starting on the Scrutiny side. I will go first. My name is Deputy Kevin Pamplin of St. Saviour and I am the Chair of this Review Panel.
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier :
Shall I go next? Yes, Deputy Robert Ward , and I am a member of the panel.
Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier :
Deputy Steve Ahier . I am a member of the panel.
Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence : Deputy Kirsten Morel , member of the panel.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
That is it from the Scrutiny side, Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister:
Senator John Le Fondré, Chief Minister.
Chief Executive:
Charlie Parker, Chief Executive.
Chief Operating Officer:
John Quinn, Chief Operating Officer.
Chief of Staff:
Catherine Madden, Chief of Staff.
Group Director, People and Corporate Services: Mark Grimley, Director of Corporate Services.
The Chief Minister:
I think that is everybody from our side as well.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Thanks, everybody. Of course this will be uploaded. For those watching live, it will be uploaded also. We will put all those links on social media for those who want to watch it back later. So we are going to pick up where we left off, Chief Minister. We are going to follow up the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations. The first question is really what progress has been made to develop an overarching people strategy to aid in the OneGov initiatives? We will start there.
The Chief Minister:
That is certainly going to be one for I think possibly John Quinn, then Mark. Obviously there have been delays because of COVID, but there was a draft that was fairly close to being ready to go, I believe. John.
Chief Operating Officer:
The draft was developed at the end of last year. We had discussed it with E.L.T. (Executive Leadership Team) members initially. It was about to be re-polished and taken to S.E.B. (States Employment Board) for their review when COVID struck, so it is on hold at the moment. It does need some revision to reflect COVID because our people position has changed, as has the Island's position in terms of employment, and some of the priorities will have to be slightly refined. The plan is to bring it back to S.E.B. in September. Mark, do you want to ...
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Obviously S.E.B. is the States Employment Board; E.L.T. is the Executive Leadership Team.
Chief Operating Officer:
Sorry, apologies. Mark, do you want to add anything?
Group Director, People and Corporate Services:
Just briefly, Chair. In developing the strategy, we worked with over 400 members of staff in terms of workshops. We revised our values as an organisation, which was one of the recommendations from C.A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General). Within it, it picks up all the areas that the C.A.G. recommended, including future planning and employee experience.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Thank you for that. There was an interesting quote in the report - and I am sure you are aware of the report inside and out - where the C. & A.G. said: "There is no overall statement, for example, within a people strategy of what the States want to achieve as an employer that in turn drives the scope and nature of the employment codes of practice and supporting H.R. (human resources) policies and guidance, therefore this means that codes, policies and guidance are developed in a vacuum." Have you taken that on board? When you bring it back, is part of that being addressed? I guess that is a follow-up question to what you have just told the panel.
The Chief Minister:
I think, Mark, that is probably one for you.
Group Director, People and Corporate Services:
Yes, Chair, it has. We have got a framework which the people strategy sits at the top of. In that people strategy, there are 4 key areas, which are the statements of intent. One of those is around the employee experience, one is around leadership, one is around employee development and one is around developing the future workforce. On those we now start to hang our new policy framework and our action plan. Our action plan had a number of key workstreams defined under that that will go to the S.E.B. in September.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Following on from that, so the tracking document and the work going on, will you be able to publish that or at least share it with this panel so we can see that?
Group Director, People and Corporate Services:
The strategy itself will be published and the key workstreams underneath that will be published. There is a performance framework within the Government where we report against everything that we are going to be doing on the people strategy. That goes to the S.E.B. and I am sure the Chief Minister will have a view about how he shares that with Members.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Apologies, we had a bit of a dropout there. It is my end, so apologies for that. Carrying on, in September 2019 the C. & A.G. released a report on the financial management and interim control. This highlighted of course a previous recommendation had not or had only been partially implemented. Do you intend to carry out these recommendations by the C. & A.G. and is there an update of that you can provide us?
The Chief Minister:
I think that is one for the Chief Executive and he is poised to answer the question.
Chief Executive:
We will be looking to implement the majority of the recommendations, albeit that some of the recommendations obviously referred back to the former M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) process rather than the Government Plan arrangements. Obviously the introduction of the new P.F.L. (Public Finances Law) has enabled us to make some further changes which would not necessarily all link back to the C. & A.G.'s recommendations, but will certainly either enhance them and/or cover the principles behind them.
It is probably worth making the point, P.F.L. is Public Finances Law and the C. & A.G. stands for Comptroller and Auditor General.
Chief Executive:
Thank you, Chief Minister.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
In terms of the other recommendations, can you give us sort of a review on where we are with the majority? Because there were many, and I think for the public record it is always good just to update the record, so to speak, on many of the other recommendations in the report. Is it something you can give us now?
Chief Executive:
I think the report, if you went through it, Chair, highlighted where we had already implemented or partially implemented. Clearly some of the ability to deliver more work and refine the embedding process, that is highlighted in each of the recommendations where we have said: "Implemented, but not embedded." By way of example, some of the things that we have been trying to do about longer- term strategic planning arrangements et cetera, some of the performance references, these are currently delayed as a consequence of COVID. I can provide at a later date an update on the recommendations that were contained within the report, but we already do that for P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee). Part of P.A.C.'s review that we have been doing for some time is to ensure that we follow up with those Members the recommendations for each of the C. & A.G.'s reports and we use the tracker that has been introduced to be able to do that and update Members and the Assembly accordingly. I am not sure whether going through the various recommendations line by line in this meeting would be a good use of the time, but you will certainly get that through the process I have just described, Chair.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
That is really helpful. I guess the simple follow-up question here is what would you identify as the absolute priorities, and equally, which are the ones you may say they are not going to be completed, for whatever reason?
Chief Executive:
Clearly some of the priorities around performance and the introduction of what would be called an appraisal process - My Goals My Conversation - and embedding that is key. We are facing some challenges about how we do that in the light of the COVID pandemic, but those key aspects of
holding people to account is part of the work that we will be introducing. We believe that we will have all the changes for the accounting officer recommendations implemented within the year, which is absolutely critical in holding people to account. We also believe that on a broader performance framework level that we will be wanting to deliver the recommendations as part of our commitment in 2020 on the Government Plan to improve the level of performance management information across the Government. As far as some of the implementation for changes to the Government Plan process, I have to say that I think the Government Plan this year is going to be somewhat different from what was originally envisaged because of the COVID position. Therefore, I would reserve our position pending the Council of Ministers' deliberations, which are ongoing at the moment, about exactly how they want to take forward this Government Plan. It may well be therefore that some of those recommendations will really see the light of day in the 2022 Government Plan rather than 2021. We do believe that we are implementing a number of the sub-recommendations. Zero-based budgets reviews, for example, were started, paused and have been restarted. We think that there will be aspects of where the Fiscal Policy Panel's recommendation about some of the replenishment of key funds will be impacted by the overarching financial arrangements that the Council of Ministers will want to see in a revised Government Plan, so some of those recommendations will partially be implemented, but will also be affected by the changes that I just referenced. I think in terms of other aspects, in looking at all of the recommendations around the business planning and financial planning, they will, I think, have been improved in the year, but they will be subject again to whatever the Council of Ministers believe is the right way of delivering a balanced budget from 2021 to 2024.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Thank you, Chief Executive. We will leave that point there and may pick it up towards the end, but again we are up against the clock, so I am going to introduce now Deputy Ward , who is going to take on the next section of questions.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Hello. Thank you very much. This section of questions is regards the Employment of States of Jersey Employees (Jersey) Law 2005. What changes to the said Law are anticipated to impact on OneGov initiatives?
The Chief Minister: It is Mark.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin: Mark maybe. Mark.
Group Director, People and Corporate Services:
Thank you, Deputy . We are not envisaging any structural changes to OneGov. The Law changes are about 3 things. The first is around the roles and responsibilities of the S.E.B. in that, and this links back to the previous question about the C.A.G.'s report. That is about how they set the direction, the policy and the assurance and there are some clarification points there. There is another matter there around the discharge of duties and the division between the States Members and accountable officers. The third part of that is around the Jersey Appointments Commission and their independence - because at the moment they report to the S.E.B. - from the Government, so they could act as a regulator. None of them would impact on the OneGov approach.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
In terms of the S.E.B., they would take full responsibility and are the only people who can employ people for the States of Jersey, so would that include all temporary contracts as well?
Group Director, People and Corporate Services:
That was a recommendation in the C.A.G.'s report, that they have oversight of interim and agency workers. They are not the employer of agency workers, but they are responsible for the policies that impact agency workers. That is already the case though.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So will there be any further increase in responsibility of the Chief Executive?
Chief Executive:
I think the key bit on the changes in the Law will be about the accountabilities for the Chief Executive being much clearer and brought up-to-date in the revisions that would be required to support the original P.1 arrangements from 2018. I am not totally sure where the question was going about any wider aspects of that process.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The question was regarding whether there would be any increase in responsibility of the Chief Executive. We recognise P.1, but will there be any ... well, as the question suggests, will it give more responsibility to yourself?
Chief Executive:
I think the key bit about the 2005 Law is it has not been updated and takes account of the principal accounting officer responsibilities, so it is seeking to get more clarity about the accountability framework for the Chief Executive rather than further levels of responsibility beyond what is already the Chief Executive's remit as the P.A.O. (principal accounting officer).
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The reasoning behind the changes is purely to update, is it?
Chief Executive:
The original requirement was that the States of Jersey Law 2005 is really out of date in reference to where we are now for some aspects of the employee/employer relationship and that needs to be updated, because it is, as you know, 15 years since that has happened. As part of that, there will be some aspects of the previous Law that will still stand, but there will be further arrangements that will have to be updated and take into account changes that have happened both as a consequence of the move to Cabinet Government that was taken in 2005 and the establishment of the Council of Ministers and the role, as well as the reporting arrangements that I have just talked about for the accountability of the Chief Executive and other senior officers accordingly.
The Chief Minister:
I think it is also probably important to point out that any work on that has all been delayed - again, subject to the comments we made already - because of the last 3, 4, 5 months on COVID.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am conscious of time and that is all I have got on that, so I think we are going to move on. It is Deputy Morel next, I think, Deputy Pamplin.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Yes, thank you, Deputy Ward . Yes, it is over to Deputy Morel , who has got a series of questions. We will, time allowing, follow up on anything that has come up in other people's questions, but yes, over to Deputy Morel .
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you. I am just going to talk about Team Jersey for a little bit. With regard to Team Jersey, what are the specific success measures that will enable us to understand whether Team Jersey has been a success or not?
The Chief Minister:
John, I think this one is for you.
Chief Operating Officer: Yes.
The Chief Minister:
Just for the record, while John is just getting ready, obviously because the hearing was split, Andy Bell is on annual leave today, which is why he cannot be present for the hearing. That is why John Quinn is doing it.
Chief Operating Officer:
Obviously there were 3 phases to the Team Jersey programme. Each of them have measures attached to them. The first phase was the discovery phase. This was an output measure, which was the publication of the report, which was made last year. The third phase is around establishing the People Services capabilities around core activities like talent management, like resourcing. Again, those are largely output measures where we will measure the activities in place and the fact that we have created that functionality. The main part of Team Jersey though was the culture change programme, which is phase 2. That has a series of input measures around attendance, volumes of activities and it has some output measures around staff engagement, which we are continuing to refine.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Obviously some of them are theoretically objective output measures, but obviously output measures you can measure in terms of quantity, the amount of output, but also the quality of that output. Who will be assessing the success of Team Jersey? Who will be doing that assessment?
Chief Operating Officer:
If you take the sessions, we measure qualitatively. Every session that is delivered has feedback from the participants. Those are monitored. Obviously the sessions are on hold at the moment because we cannot legitimately get 16 people together in a room to deliver the sessions, although we are looking at re-establishing delivery using some virtual means in the autumn. But up until the point where they went on hold in March, the output measures in terms of the quality of the delivery was recorded after each session through a feedback mechanism, which was on the day through tablets, and they were monitored by the board. We have a programme board for Team Jersey, which Catherine Madden chairs, I am the S.R.O. (Senior Responsible Officer), and we review those stats every month.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Obviously those stats are about individual sessions, but as you said, phase 2, the main bulk of the work is about culture change. Okay, people may have enjoyed a particular session and of course it is very good, but the next morning they may forget everything that was said in that session, so how are you assessing that wider cultural change?
Chief Operating Officer:
We are still working on that. We have redone our staff engagement model and we are in the middle of the survey at the moment to provide that baseline against which we will then measure some of the attributes that are in that engagement survey as they develop over the next couple of years.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
It sounds to me like the assessment then is done by the programme board - was that what you called it - and it is internal ...
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes. The assessment is done by the programme board on a monthly basis. It is reported to the E.L.T. and to the OneGov Political Oversight Group on a quarterly or more regular basis if required.
Chief Executive:
The survey is conducted externally. It is not done internally, so therefore there is a validation process that comes with the weighting around all of the measures that are used on that. That is benchmarked survey on survey, because we do not do it every year. In addition to that, the S.E.B. gets updates periodically as well.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Can I ask, who is ultimately responsible or accountable for the success of Team Jersey?
Chief Operating Officer:
I am the S.R.O. for the Team Jersey programme, so yes, myself.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
From the perspective of TDP, if you were unhappy with the performance of Team Jersey, what kind of measures could you take to reflect that?
Chief Operating Officer:
If I was unhappy with the performance of TDP delivery, then I would have a normal conversation, as you would with any supplier, but ultimately it is a commercial contract so we have a right of termination, as you would with any commercial supplier.
Chief Executive:
The contract has a whole series of performance metrics in it as well and there are some obvious milestones that have to be achieved. Now, unfortunately, as you can imagine, some of those for 2020 have been impacted again by COVID.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Relating to COVID, with that, is there a thought that the Team Jersey contract may need to be extended?
Chief Operating Officer:
I think it is likely to have to be extended in 2 respects. One is in terms of time because meeting some of the contract deliverables in terms of the number of sessions that we will run with staff will almost certainly go beyond the March 2021 date which was originally envisaged, because we are effectively having a 6-month hold on those deliveries, so we will be extending the contract in terms of time to allow the sessions that we have already committed to to be delivered. We are also now looking at how Team Jersey supports the recovery of the Government post-COVID, particularly around how we leverage the successes that we have had during COVID, because there was lots of very good cross-team working which has come out of the need to respond rapidly. How do we leverage that, but also how do we help departments develop a new way of working which will have to be developed as a result of COVID? It is likely that we will change the scope as well.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
How long do you think the extension will need to be for?
Chief Operating Officer:
I would not expect it to be more than 12 months.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Although obviously the COVID pandemic so far has only been 4 or 5 months, are you expecting Team Jersey to do no work between now and another 6 months' time?
Chief Operating Officer:
I think there is 6 months' extension to make up for the lost time of delivery because we will not realistically start delivery again until September. There is no point in trying to start delivery during the summer holidays. Then I think alongside that there is some work to do in 2 phases. One is supporting departments in their recovery and the other is to develop an internal capability, which we did have to put on hold and which because we have not been able to recruit within People Services during this current time, it will take us longer to develop. I am not saying it will be 12 months; I say it will not be more than 12 months.
Chief Executive:
The other aspect of that is should there be further spikes which change the method of how we engage and deliver the programme, we have to be realistic that that may well see some of the levels that we currently operate at changing, which may impact on the way in which we can deliver some of the training and development programme. As part of that, that is why the earlier reference to what we might be doing online and how we might change to a more virtual capability is being developed at the moment to try and account for the possibility - and I stress possibility - of any changes that may come to our operational arrangements. Then obviously that we cannot at the moment predict, so there is a degree here of prudence being put into the sorts of timeframes that we are talking about in case we get a rise in our situation over the winter months that then drives through, for example, until next spring and before the other mitigation for COVID comes into place. So we are not suggesting that we just extend it without there being some recognition of the need to also adjust how it is that they are going to deliver the product that they are committed contractually to do so.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
In terms of help with the recovery, why would that work fall to Team Jersey directly? Why would that not be sought as a tender or some other wider commissioning process to see if others may deliver it more effectively?
Chief Operating Officer:
What we want to do is to build on the work that has already been done. You will probably be aware that we have done a number of departmental interventions that build on that framework, particularly in G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment), where we did an intense session to help them create their licensing and oversight function. I think that the benefit of extending the Team Jersey work is to ensure continuity, so rather than coming in with yet another initiative, most senior managers particularly will have been through some or all of the programme by the end of this year. They have all been through some of it already, but most of them will have been through all of it by the end of this year or early next year and therefore leveraging. We have already started talking about high performing teams, we have already started talking about emotional awareness and we want to leverage that, rather than coming in with: "Here is another way of doing things."
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you. In terms of that recovery work, would you undertake - this refers to the report that comes from my proposition a year or so ago - a needs analysis before just extending the contract in this area in order to keep them focused and understand exactly what it is they are trying to achieve?
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes. What we are doing is we are organising meetings with each of the leadership teams of the departments, so the Director Generals and their direct reports, to identify what support they will need going forward. Those meetings start at the end of this month, so the very first one is 29th July, and they will run through the summer and early into the autumn as availability comes so that we can do a diagnostics piece before we start the work.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
What do you anticipate the cost to be of these extensions?
Chief Operating Officer:
I do not have a figure at the moment. Once we have done the diagnostics we will be able to identify what work needs to be done.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
How much has been paid to Team Jersey so far?
Chief Operating Officer:
I do not have the exact numbers. I can get them back to the panel, but I do not have them on me, unfortunately.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Will you be putting any contingencies in place to ensure there are no further extensions of this contract?
Chief Operating Officer:
Yes. Part of the again currently on hold work is to develop an internal capability. Again, just before COVID struck, we had agreed to start the recruitment of an internal delivery capability so that we could start to deliver the sessions that have been designed by TDP ourselves rather than relying on their staff to do that delivery. That obviously again got stopped because recruiting was not possible during the first phase of the pandemic. We will go back to that, so the intention is that Team Jersey as a brand is an enduring brand that will go on hopefully for ever. TDP's involvement in that will cease and it will be an entirely internally run programme.
Chief Executive:
That was always the case. That has never been not the principle. It was part of the original contractual arrangements to be able to build capability and capacity. It is not sensible, in my professional experience, to have an organisation constantly leading that. If you do not embed it in the core business arrangements for the organisation, then you will not be able to get the benefit. The long-term ambition has always been to build up our own abilities and capabilities to deliver this in-house.
Chief Operating Officer:
I was going to say, the upskilling is in 2 areas. One is a delivery capability for sessions that we have currently designed and the other then is a diagnostics capability in order that we can design future sessions, because we want to be able to evolve the programme as the organisation evolves, and again not rely on having to pull external organisations back in.
Deputy K.F. Morel :
Thank you. I will now hand over to Deputy Ahier , who is going to ask a few questions about the Target Operating Model.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Thanks very much, Kirsten. In a recent letter to the Chair of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel, the Chief Minister stated: "The review of Target Operating Models is a continuous process, reflecting the changing needs of the organisation and our customers." Will this mean that the changes to the Target Operating Models will never end?
The Chief Minister:
The short answer is yes. In any organisation I have either been in or encountered, if you get a culture of change and get it embedded, then you will have almost a continuous process of change as the organisation evolves. It is not a static process, because otherwise it then becomes stagnant. Charlie or John, do you want add to that?
Chief Executive:
I would always say that right from the beginning the introduction of changes in the organisation structure has been the focus for a lot of people, but it is only one part of the wider changes that we are trying to bring about. We just touched on some of that in the previous discussion. As you go through and change models of service delivery, you would expect to change organisational structures. By way of example, in the context of the I.T.S. (Information Technology Systems) project - that is the information technology and systems changes we are bringing in - we know that we will be moving to a more automated arrangement which is in keeping with most modern organisations' remit. But here the public service is incredibly reliant on manual processes, which means that you have large numbers of headcount involved in activity that could be done cheaper and be better for the use of public money, as well as being more effective and efficient and avoid potential areas for error. For example, when we talked about the Treasury and Exchequer changes, we said over a period of 2 to 3 years as those system changes came into place, we will change the organisational structure to accommodate that. We said the same around a whole range of other services that we are looking to modernise and update. It has never been that the Target Operating Models and the support for those will come to a full conclusion at any one time. What we did say and what we have
continued to do is that we will deal with different levels of the first phase of those Target Operating Models. Obviously some have been changed, as we discussed at the last hearing, due to Assembly decisions or political changes and therefore that has skewed some of the delivery and target dates. In other cases, though we will continue to make further changes as a consequence of, for example, propositions that have been brought or the arrangements around just recently the issue of regulation powers et cetera. This will not be something that stops. However, what I do not expect it to be is the whole of the organisation always going through lots and lots of changes for each department at the same time every year, all year, on an ongoing rolling programme. It will vary, it will change and it will depend entirely on what it is that is seen that needs to be taking account of either investment in technology, as I have just explained, political priorities and changes and/or other arrangements that may be taking place.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Thank you. At the start of the process it was mentioned that 22 directors would be removed from the organisation. Has this been successfully implemented?
Chief Executive: Yes.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
So there has been an overall reduction in the number of tier 1 and 2 employees since you took office?
Chief Executive:
Yes, and that has been documented, evidenced and produced for numerous Scrutiny meetings in the past.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Thank you. There has been mention that when the Target Operating Model has been delivered, news of job cuts has been put forward insensitively. Have lessons been learned in communicating the Target Operating Model?
Chief Executive:
I think, Deputy , you are referring to a piece in the paper today. I would suggest that that quote came in reference to a particular issue rather than that is the general position. Of course any potential reduction in headcount or changes in jobs will always create uncertainty. We have been through a whole range of changes over the last couple of years and within that there have been times where people feel quite acutely worried about what the impact might be for their jobs. As the Chief Minister
made clear in the last session that we had, this is not all about lots and lots of headcount changes. It is part of organising ourselves in a better way and also creating much more cross-cutting arrangements for the delivery of services. As a consequence of that, there have been some job losses and there have been numerous savings made, but it is not the sole purpose for the Target Operating Model arrangements. I think the Chief Minister also drew the committee's attention to the fact that we have this unique situation in Jersey around demographic headcount numbers, which allows us to do things in a very different way here, which we can phase in changes over a number of years. In direct answer to the question, inevitably some people will think things were done insensitively, but I think as a general rule of thumb, the communication has been comprehensive. We have gone through huge amounts of consultation and as part of that we have learnt from lessons through the different phases of the Target Operating Model, but it is not now, I think, generally seen as being something that creates those sorts of sensationalist headlines.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
But currently there is some increase in F.T.s (Full Time). I believe the Technology Transformation Programme are intending to take on 52 extra staff. The C.O.O. (Chief Operating Officer) himself is taking on 11 extra staff. Is there a policy of increasing public sector recruitment at the moment and how will this impact the Target Operating Model process?
Chief Executive:
Just to be clear, when the Government Plan was agreed last year, there was a recognition that there was going to be, in certain areas, growth, particularly around those areas that you have just identified. It was never not identified and made clear to Members that there would not be recruitment in those areas. However, in other areas, as a consequence of, for example, investment in the technology and having the capability to do that in-house rather than outsource it, rather than incur greater costs and have jobs that are not locally based, there will be compensatory savings in other parts of the organisation. We have been clear, for example, in the efficiencies programme and the profiling that that was going to be backloaded and that will come into play around 2022-23. That will be significant amounts of public money that will be saved, but we had to invest upfront to do all the work to enable us, by way of example, to migrate all the systems that we have, as we have documented in all of the business cases to make changes to. Yes, there will be some areas where there will be growth. We also acknowledged last year in the Government Plan that part of the Government Plan was dealing with some areas where some short-term measures have been put in place and that the Government took decisions to invest in those areas on a permanent footing, by way of example, the work on Brexit, and there were other areas as well. So none of that is new, it was well documented, it was evidenced in the Scrutiny meetings last year and as a consequence where we are implementing those investment programmes and recruiting staff, we are doing so.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Have some of these increases been solely due to the pandemic?
Chief Executive:
Inevitably we also have a different set of issues around the pandemic, by way of example, our test and trace programme at the moment. We have had to recruit people to be able to support it in order to release staff back to their B.A.U. (business as usual) functions. We do have some new areas as a result of the COVID impact, which we again are having to invest particularly in the health area. Support for how and in what way we provide, for example, public protection and personal protection arrangements is another area. Yes, we have had to do some short term and medium term interim recruitment where appropriate. We are currently though looking at the longer-term arrangements to support any legacy that comes out of COVID that we would then need to have maintained to provide the right mitigation and comfort and security to the Island so that we are able to deal with some of the impacts of COVID going forward, should there be further rises or spikes in activity.
Deputy S.M. Ahier :
Thank you. I will pass over now to Deputy Ward for the next question, thank you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you. I was going to ask some questions on a similar area. What level of perhaps power or influence do Director Generals and the Chief Executive hold in driving change in the structures of specific departments for the delivery of services?
The Chief Minister:
Can you clarify what you mean by that?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes. I paused, because I was thinking perhaps I should give you an example. For example, outsourcing of parts of a department's service, where would the drivers come from and who would have the final say if any of the service was contracted out or transferred to arm's length organisations, for example, within the new OneGov structure?
The Chief Minister:
The reason I asked that question is because there is obviously a divide, as it were, or a barrier between operational and obviously the policy side. If it is an operational issue and potentially not particularly material, I would expect it lies within the D.G. (Director General). However, I think there would be an expectation that if it was a significant change and obviously if it was any change in policy that the relevant Minister or S.E.B., depending on what we were dealing with, or the Council of Ministers, again depending on what the issue is, it would refer up to them. It depends on the level of the change you are talking about and whether it was operational or effectively a significant change in policy.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So if it was, for example, to set up an arm's length body to deliver something that does not exist, would that go to the Minister and subsequently come to the States Assembly? I am just trying to get a picture of where the drivers are and where the final decisions are made, really, to understand the OneGov structure in action.
The Chief Minister:
I think it always depends on the specifics. As I am sure you are aware, we always take advice from the relevant Law Officers and also the Greffier of the States, so in terms of the kind of things relating to it, depending on the nature of the specific issue, it would certainly go up to the Minister. It then depends on what the nature of the Law is as to whether it goes to the Assembly and/or one would tend to assume that at the very least Scrutiny would be briefed and/or in the same way as we have been doing over the last few months, Members would be briefed.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I just have one quick thing on that? Sorry, just to confirm, do you think it would be politically expedient for any major change to come to the Assembly in that way? I mean, we already have arm's length organisations, but if any others were to be set up, for example.
The Chief Minister:
I think it depends on the circumstances, at the end of the day, and it depends what the Law requires.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So you would go on the Law requirement rather than ... okay, that makes sense.
The Chief Minister:
It depends. If there is a legal requirement, therefore it speaks for itself. Anything else, it would be a political judgment, depending on what the issue is.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes. I think this comes from the fact that Ministers have said in the States Assembly that they are not fans of outsourcing and so it is obviously important for us to understand the relationship between the OneGov structure, that decision-making process and where the Minister would step in if, as they have said, they are not fans of a process. It helps us understand that relationship.
I think it would be fair to say at the moment obviously outsourcing has not been taking place. That is why it is still a bit of hypothetical question and that is why I am suggesting it will depend on ... as far as I am aware, it is not the agenda at this stage. It is one of those, it depends about the materiality, is it operational and at what point it goes up to the Minister and then goes, if you like, to the wider political sphere. It will very much depend on what those circumstances are.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you for that. I will pass back to Deputy Pamplin.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Thanks, Deputy . We have just got a couple of minutes to mop up. I want to go back to my position, coming in, Chief Minister, as a Chair who has picked up this previous Review Panel's work and trying to get a sense of how it has changed in the 2 years since the review started. A question for you: since walking in as Chief Minister and now 2 years into the gig, so to speak, just talk to me how you perceive it, as Chief Minister. Again, I want to push on the side of things that still need to be worked on because we are hearing a lot of positive things and that is fine and important, but I want to hear about the challenges that you see that you would like to get in place before the end of your next 2 years.
The Chief Minister:
There is quite a lot in there, but when I came in ... and I think that also relates to what I might have seen in either effectively your position, as it were, or as a Member in the past in terms of either as a Back-Bencher, not a member of the Executive or as an Assistant Minister in the past. I see quite significant change from all the experiences I have had in terms of when I stood at the last election, the organisational culture, the breaking down of the silos, the organisation coming in essentially to be fit for purpose for the 21st century, all those type of things and all those frustrations we have seen over goodness knows how many years. I see a real drive to change that. I think we are starting to see that. There will always be some people when you are the middle of change who find it difficult. You get anecdotal feedback, which is conversations you have with officers who you might have had a relationship within the past in terms of working with them and generally I think perhaps in pretty well all cases they have been positive about making change and about seeing change happening. I think in terms of my personal experience, trying to deliver change, there is definitely a speed, a pace that I have never seen before and that is a good thing. I think also, and really without going on for too long, if you then look at the response to COVID - and I have said this before, and I have said it with the Chief Executive in the room, so I will say it again and not spare his blushes - I think we have a huge debt of gratitude to the Chief Executive and his team for how we have all brought
this Island through COVID-19 since it kicked off in the early part of this year. I do not think under the previous structure we would have been in as good a place and able to move as quickly as we have done. There has been a huge role for Assembly Members as well and in Scrutiny for the speed at which certain things have been looked at and examined, but I do not think we have been in that position to get that to Assembly Members in the way that has been this time around under the earlier structure. I think it is also worth making the comment, which I will hand over to John Quinn, which is his experience of M.D. (Managing Director) effectively and the Target Operating Model and whether he would have been able to do what he needed to do without that restructuring. But I will let him come in at the very end if he needs to or he may just say yes. The other point I think, just keeping on time, the sheer level of change that has been going through. I am thinking if you look at the shift, what has become clear over the last 18 months, what was very clear ... and we did a briefing to States Members, you may recall, in about September time last year, which was one of these - it might have been end of September - which was around some of the reasons we were doing the investment we needed to do in, for example, our I.T. systems, the varied issues, the fact that, for example, JD Edwards had not really been maintained, as I understand it, since about I am going to say 2005, which I was not aware of when I came into the Assembly at the end of 2005. So that underlines the sheer lack of investment that has been going in and that for which we have been, if you like, paying the price over the last few years. That is also around how you get the data into the right place and make good decisions. I think the fact that some of those changes were happening before the beginning of this year and before COVID came through, all I will say is thank goodness they were happening. There was some criticism at that time of the volume of the investment, but you look at where we are now, as I said previously, the fact that we have had a remote parliamentary meeting, I think Deputy Russell Labey referred to that as being the first Parliament or Assembly in the Commonwealth to have done it in full, all those are pointers as to the level of change we have all achieved in a very short space of time, but the foundations were being set through the OneGov programme and they need to continue.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Sorry to cut in, Chief Minister, because of time, but just very quickly, at the end of the day that is all well and good and I can sense what you are saying, but at the end of the day it is all about the results and it is all about the savings that will be judged upon in terms of the taxpayer, in terms of all of us when we go back to the electorate. Can you now see, when we get to the next election, there will be an obvious figure shown of what the savings are to the taxpayer? Because I think everything you have just said is valid, but there is still a perception on this Island - and I am not talking about media headlines or social media, I am just generally talking about real people who I talk to, that you talk to - there is still a perception problem on this Island. So when we look at it, 2 things: where are the savings; how will that be translated and how do we go about getting the Island on board, who
are still sceptical with every survey? We could sit for hours, but could you just quickly summarise the challenge ahead with dealing with that?
The Chief Minister:
In terms of the data, if you like, will we see savings, there is a 6-monthly report that is due to come out which is meant to be about holding us all to account and particularly the Chief Executive and his team. It is due to be produced by the end of August, so at that point you will see the data which will demonstrate that. I always have a caveat as an accountant, which is obviously you have got to bear in mind we will see the savings, but you will also see the extra spend that we will have to do through COVID, so you need to make sure that you do not lose sight of that and do not lose sight of the fact that savings and restructuring and doing things in a better and efficient way are still carrying on. There have obviously been delays, as we have referred to, because of COVID, but there will also be significant extra spend because of COVID. We have got to make sure we keep those 2 things separately. The COVID spend is going to be effectively, I hope, one-off and generally should be non-recurring spend, but the difficulty we have at this point is at what point we will go back to normal as opposed to even a new normal, that is the saving side is a recurring saving that we will see on revenue expenditure. Sometimes that can mean delivering services more efficiently, which means delivering more for the same level or it is a reduction in spend, but you will see part of that coming through. As I said, do not forget the COVID-19 impact as well.
Deputy K.G. Pamplin:
Of course, and I think none of us will. I think this will be an ongoing process. Looking at the time, we are bang on 2.00 p.m. Talking about efficient, that is how I like to run meetings, so on that note, thank you, Chief Minister, thank you, Chief Executive, and everybody for joining us. We look forward to future engagements and the release of this interim report that will be coming up in the coming weeks. Thank you, everyone.