Transcript - CEHA Government Plan 2022 Review - Minister for Children and Education - 1 November 2021

Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel

Government Plan 2022-2025

Witness: The Minister for Children and Education

Monday, 1st November 2021

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair) Senator T.A. Vallois

Witnesses:

Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier , The Minister for Children and Education Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter , Assistant Minister for Children and Education Mr. M. Rogers, Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills Mr. S. O'Regan, Group Director, Education

Ms. A. Homer, Business Finance Partner

Mr. J. Williams, Project Director

[10:00]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chair):

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the hearing with regards the Government Plan with the Minister for Children and Education and the Children, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. We will start with introductions. So, my name is Deputy Rob Ward and I chair the panel.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Senator Tracey Vallois, member of the panel.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Deputy Scott Wickenden. I am the Minister for Children and Education.

Assistant Minister for Children and Education: Constable Richard Vibert , an assistant to the Minister.

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Mark Rogers, Director General for Children, Young People, Education and Skills.

Business Finance Partner:

Anne Homer, Head of Finance Business Partnering, looking after C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills).

Group Director, Education:

Sean O'Regan, Group Director of Education.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Excellent. Minister, when we start the hearing, obviously you would have seen there has been a lot of coverage about the scrutiny hearing that we had last week ...

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

... with the governors of Haute Vallée School. The sign that they gave us I am not going to ceremonially hand across because I think ... I do not want to make that simple gesture because it is much more important than that, but it is something that they gave back to us for you to have as representative of the Government. We thought it would be fair to give you the opportunity to respond at the beginning of the hearing as we get into the Government Plan. Is there anything you want to respond with from their hearing?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, there are a few things I would like to clarify from the words that they said during their hearing. Firstly, just to make things clear, at no point during our meeting on 22nd September did the words: "The pot is the pot. What do you want me to do, stop digging up roads?" come out of my mouth. That was a completely incorrect statement from me. What I actually did was speak to the former governor to explain how the Government Plan process works, and I spoke about to put more money in education would mean that I would have to have conversations with other Ministers to talk about how we would reduce their funding and what that could look like, to be able to increase funding somewhere else. So I just talked to Mr. Horsley about that is the process that things happen. At no point did I say: "Well, we will just have to stop doing ..." I would say there would have to be a discussion to say would we do less maintenance on sewerage, would we do less road resurfacing, would we put less money into health, would we put less money into the Environment Department. Those are the discussions that would have to happen in such a manner when a case was put forward for extra money for one department. It does have to come from somewhere. But at no point did I put such a disparaging comment out in such a way and I would like to make that clear.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of, then, the reason that we had this information given to scrutiny, the concern was that by that notion that it is one department playing off against another, because the Government has decided to put children first, is it not a situation where ... and I do not want to put words into the mouths of governors but just from what we have seen and to interpret that, that that comparison really should not be made I think is what the governors were saying, in that if we are putting children first the money would be found, given the circumstance that they raised in terms of the genuine lack of funding in the school and real concerns about not just resourcing but being able to provide even the basics in a school.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Well, I would say that the putting children first pledge was not something that just sits within Education or C.Y.P.E.S. Health have putting children first and creating better services. We have C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) and extra money that goes in in those areas, making sure the streets are safe. Putting children first is not one priority that sits within one department over another. We have to make sure that we are making the Island safe for children in every ministerial area that we are dealing with. The funding pressures on schools, as I say, is nothing new. It is something that I have come into as the Minister for Education as well, but it is something that is being worked on. We have the plan that looks at the funding formula. That work is ongoing. That started before my time and that work is ongoing, but we have had to within that funding pressure, when we understand that we need more extra money, we have had the inclusion review that has been going on, which has had massive stakeholder engagement trying to find out where the deficits are in services, in funding, in many other areas. For me to go toward a Government Plan or a Council of Ministers with a proposal for the extra funding, I have to do it with evidence and that evidence is something that I have been waiting to be done through the engagement of stakeholders, through the inclusion review, through the work that is happening in the education reform programme. So, as I say, it is not something new. It is something that I have come into since I have been the Minister and I am waiting for that evidence to be able to come forward. As soon as I have that evidence, I will fight for the extra funding, Chairman.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I ask then, before we talk about the education reform programme, which is something that is key to the Government Plan, do you accept the statements made by the school in terms of the inadequacy of their funding, the fact that they have had to overspend simply to get the basics? One of the most striking things that was said to us in this room was that after staffing and paying the bills was accounted for, there was nothing left. Therefore, as a board of governors - I think that is why they raised the issue - who are accountable for spend, they had to approve an overspend of £600,000. Is that accepted by yourself and the department?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I agree that there has been overspending in a number of years that has happened within the schools and the board of governors have signed it off in many places. In fact, I think every primary or secondary school has overspent over the last number of years and the department have accepted the overspend. At no point has the department ever gone back and said: "Because you have overspent this year you are not going to get the money next year or we are going to recoup that money from your budget." It has been accepted that there is an overspend and it has been approved as an overspend. While the review is going on, again it needs to be evidence based that we need to get to the right place. This piece of work started before my time and I am trying to make sure that it is seen through and that we can get the right outcomes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There was a really stark piece of evidence that we gained publicly there. Have you looked at that hearing and have you read ... because there were so many things that came up, the issues over students with English as an additional language and the inadequacy of that funding. Apparently, this notion that you can bid for £950 - and that is not per student, that is in total - when 50 per cent of the school has English as an additional language it is something like £2 per student. Now, that will not buy a dictionary is what was said to us. So these are the real, specific details in the day to day working of a school. Do you accept that those issues are real and exist now and what is being done to address those directly in the coming few months and next year?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Well, I accept that there are more pressures on English as an additional language and special educational needs. More money was in the Government Plan and it was part of the education reform programme to be able to put that money in. That was before my time, so what I can accept in here is that the plan that was put in place and was agreed by the Assembly in the Government Plan, the money is there and it is being dealt with to deliver. Is it enough? I am hearing from this board of governors they feel it is not enough, but that is what was agreed and that is the monies. The inclusion review and the work that is going on in the education reform programme will no doubt highlight where more needs to be happening, but again it has to be evidence based, Chairman.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was going to ask a question but do you want to ...?

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just briefly if I can, Minister, when you talk about evidence based, do you have information about the inclusion review and the funding formula at your fingertips at this present time as we speak?

The Minister for Children and Education:

So the ... oh, have I got that at my fingertips right now?

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Well, no, not right in this hearing but I mean in terms of if you go back to the department is that information there already, whether it is in draft form or whether it is being scrutinised by another body?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I have the first draft of the inclusion review. I have had a briefing from N.A.S.E.N. (National Association for Special Educational Needs), who have put together the inclusion review, and they are ... I think we are going to be offering you a review with N.A.S.E.N. so you can challenge the inclusion review as it goes. As far as funding for S.E.N. (special educational needs) I believe the department if I ask would give me that information, yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

In terms of the funding formula, which was something that came out of the education reform programme, you state that it started before your time. Our understanding when we had a briefing from your officers earlier on in the year was that it would be completed in October. Is that the case or has it been delayed and, if so, for what reason?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think that is something that Jonathan Williams will be able to update when we get to that point of the education reform programme, if that is all right. It is rather ... the piece of work is happening there. I know that it is mature now and we will be looking at that, but I think I will let Jonathan update you when we get to that point of the ... is that okay, Chairman?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. I think there is a question around that that is really important again. It was raised with us that the ... and stop me if I am wrong, Senator, because this is my interpretation of it. We were both there. The school funding formula has been undertaken as a consultation with head teachers and representatives from schools who believe they have an agreement on the way it will look. That school funding formula uncovered a deficit of around £23 million for base funding of schools. Is that something that is familiar to you from what you have seen from the school funding review?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I have not heard that £23 million funding deficit number raised to me at all until I heard it in your scrutiny hearing on Monday with the board of governors.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So where do you believe that would have come from?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I believe now, since that hearing, as I have been speaking to my officers, that there was a consultation piece of work that was done with head teachers to look at a level of the art of the possible, what kind of funding they believed would be required for them to have a decent level of funding across their schools. That piece of work came up with that figure and then that figure needed to then be looked at from there to make sure that we knew that there was not double accounting in it or that we can do things in the right manner. So I believe that figure was done during consultation and, of course, consultation, we cannot do looking at funding for schools in isolation just within the department. It is absolutely right that we go out and consult with the head teachers and the boards of governors and the likes to make sure that we ask what they feel they need. That is where the number came from. It cannot just be taken as read as that is that. We need to make sure - it is public money; it is not my money - that it is looked at appropriately to make sure that it is accurate and right, rather than just a workshop, that it is all looked at appropriately and properly.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So who will look at that and who will analyse the accuracy of that figure from head teachers, who are in the front line of delivering with their staff? Who is it who will look at that to, if you like, filter that figure, that funding model?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think not filter but verify I think is the word. Filtering is more about taking things out rather than verifying. But it will be the department. So we will have the Director General, Mr. O'Regan here, will look at it and it will be part of the process as in finances. We have some very knowledgeable people within the department that will be able to look through and see where things like double accounting might happen and where things could be done appropriately.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. I think it is important that we ask because of the future of education and where we are and it is a really hot topic and should well be. Once that process is gone through, and I will ask you for a timescale of that afterwards, if that figure comes out at the end and is around £23 million, for example, and there is not the double accounting that you are suggesting, et cetera, will that be supported as a funding model or will it simply be that what we want to spend is this and so, therefore, you will have to correct that funding model?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Well, once I have all that evidence in front of me, the process will be to go with that evidence to the Council of Ministers and put a proposal towards Treasury and the Council of Ministers to say: "This is what good looks like for the best funding we can have for schools that will mean that the pressures are put off and we are delivering good educational outcomes." Of course I will support that when it is put in front of me as a business case and I will take that forward.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. Do you have a timescale for when that process will be completed? Because it does seem an urgent pressure on schools and the sooner we solve it, the better the impact, the better the outcomes.

The Minister for Children and Education: I agree.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do any of your officers have an idea of that seeing as you are involved in that verification process?

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

So we have the director for the programme on the line or the Group Director is here as well, Chairman.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Thank you. Would you like to introduce yourself first?

Project Director:

Thank you, Jonathan Williams, Programme Director for the education reform programme.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, before you start, that is for the education reform programme, so the school funding review came from the education reform programme. Are you also the person who is directing the process of the school funding review that came from the education reform programme?

Project Director:

So slightly different words and descriptions is useful just to clarify those. You will be familiar with the multiple projects within the education reform programme, one of which is to develop a new school funding formula, and it is that work I think we are discussing today. In terms of implementation progress, we had intended to get the first draft complete for the funding formula by the end of October and put it into quality assurance review. In fact, we did that slightly earlier than anticipated so as we speak now the quality assurance of that draft funding formula is being worked on by several groups. To your question on which groups are looking at it, multiple different parties look. So we have one element of quality assurance being undertaken by colleagues in the Treasury and Exchequer Department.

[10:15]

We also have an external firm described as the P.S.C. (public sector consultancy) who formerly did the work on the schools fund review so are very familiar with our system and our funding. We will have separate reviews then by the project team looking at this, the programme board and the C.Y.P.E.S. leadership team. We also might reserve the right to get a specific and additional review of the inclusion components of this from another third party. That is as yet undecided.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. That project team that you talk about, are they people who are on the front line of education? Are they facing those funding pressures every day? Who are that project team?

Project Director:

Yes, absolutely. So the scope of this first part of the funding formula review was for primaries and secondaries so excluded Highlands and excluded some of the special schools. That decision on scoping was so that we could deal with the bulk of the schools in the system first of all. It includes head teachers from both the primary and the secondary phases, among others, to make sure that we have some, as you say, front line input into some of the pressures that are being felt. That consultation, that engagement, was felt to be critical while we are developing this funding formula.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So what is the balance of input in terms of what percentage is ... you seem to have a lot of people. Treasury are involved. There is the company that did the education funding formula - and I will ask you how much that is costing us afterwards - and then the project team, which includes staff from schools, directly from schools. What proportion of the influence, one might say, is from those who are in the front line facing those pressures? What proportion of influence is from Treasury, who would want to hold back on funding? What proportion is from the company that is not based in the U.K. (United Kingdom) but you say has a good view of our schools? What proportion of influence comes from those 3 areas? Because I think in understanding this school funding review we do need to know those sorts of influences.

Project Director:

Absolutely. So if I can answer that best by describing the process that we have undertaken to build the draft formula, the project teams have 3 or 4 head teachers in them, so head teachers from both primaries and secondaries, and we have 2 representatives from each. They are involved also to represent the wider group of head teachers, reflecting that we cannot have everybody in the room at the same time. We also then have a member of the Treasury team who is doing all of the heavy lifting on putting together all of the inputs and creating the new formula, which if you can visualise it is a huge and complex set of equations in an Excel sheet. We then have members of the School Improvement and Advisory Service in there as well. That represents, I guess, the bulk of the people who are inputting into the formula. The output from that work is then taken through some reviews. So the reviews are then undertaken under a quality assurance process by those different groups, so the Treasury group, the external P.S.C. group, and played back into the project working group. That iteration continues until we have got to a stage where we think there is the right number.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. What are the criteria for the quality assurance? I could quote Einstein and say the theory determines what we observe. If you do not have the baseline of what you are looking to do, the quality assurance could be the determining factor regardless of what we hear. So quality assurance, to be quite frank, I think to most people in schools, teachers, students and particularly I would say the governors of the school that we spoke to, will mean very little. It will just mean another bureaucratic process. What is that quality assurance? I want to ask you as well afterwards when we move on about this notion of complexity. What is that quality assurance?

Project Director:

Of course, we have asked a specific question. So quality assurance is not left as a very nebulous concept. We have been quite clear in our brief with the public sector consultancy. So they have done a little bit of work or they are doing some work for us on the model itself. So that is as simple as making sure that all of the equations and all of the formulas work so we do not have an error somewhere in the way in which the formula is constructed technically. So that is completely independent of the content to just make sure that the maths works out. We have also then asked them to look at various of our assumptions in terms of reconciliation of our policies or where there are no policies we have asked them to call out and just make that clear so we can align some of the equations and assumptions with policies or determine where there are no policies and, therefore, more work is required. Finally, we have asked them to look at some external benchmarks and other comparative metrics. So we can ask them what is done in the English schools elsewhere in the context of ratios or classroom sizes or cost per pupil in terms of materials, and while we do not have to take those benchmarks and implement them, it gives us an insight into how these things are dealt with elsewhere. So those are the areas of the quality assurance we have asked from the P.S.C.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. I think this takes us back to complexity. One of the striking things for me from when we were spoken to by the school governors was this notion that ... I cannot remember, I think one of the 2 said it is not complex, this is not difficult, the formula is not difficult, there is just a distinct underfunding of a section of our school community and there is an unfairness in funding. So are you not over ... the word I am looking for is overcomplicating this formula and is that not leading to us going down a rabbit hole yet again of a funding formula when head teachers know what they need and it is just a question of get on and deliver it?

Project Director:

So one of the goals is to try and simplify an existing formula into something that is a bit more manageable and a bit more transparent, and that has been one of the objectives. There is always a risk of overcomplicating and I think the iterations we go through start off by looking at every single moving part, whether it is staff or non-staff, in a school to determine where we are today, the assumptions that drive funding, where we should be tomorrow, looking at that differential and then testing whether that is the right kind of area to focus on. As we go through these various loops, these various iterations, we need to try and put it back into something less complex. I think that in absolute terms it will still be quite a complex model. There is nothing that I have seen that suggests that it should be straightforward and simple. However, it should be much more straightforward and simple than the model that we are applying at the moment.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So when is the dates that we as a Scrutiny Panel and schools can see and the public can see the new school funding formula in place ... well, first of all the model itself, then, secondly, in place and in schools and solving the problems that have been highlighted and are so obvious from what we have seen so far?

Project Director:

So let me break that down because there are different answers to those questions. In terms of the work we are undertaking now, the quality assurance should be complete to enable us to have a pretty good view of what the formula looks like by the end of this year. Included within that are then some of the options around transition, so how do you go from today's formula to tomorrow's formula? So I think we will be able to share the formula with you as a group and with schools before the end of December. We are not intending and it would never be possible to implement and to execute the formula transition in one hit, so we are getting some advice at the moment on how we can transition from old to new formulas. So I will give you a couple of examples. The independent school funding review, as you know, puts new money into the system. So where we have sight of new money in the system in 2022 we would look to put that in through the new school funding formula from 1st January. So to give 2 or 3 specific examples, there is extra money going into a cohort of children who are determined to have low prior attainment. There is an additional set of money going into those children with English as an additional language. There is incremental funding going into those children on Jersey premium. So all of that incremental funding is intended to go into the funding formula from 1st January.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, is that in this year's Government Plan?

Project Director:

Correct, that is money that has been approved. It simply has not been distributed but the intention is the mechanism by which it is distributed will be the new funding formula and those elements will be in place from 1st January. However, where there are more wholesale changes to the way in which we might, for example, support inclusion of schools and where those changes require changes to the distribution of staff or the types of staff that we are recruiting, clearly that cannot be done on 1st January so ... and this is sharing work in progress, I need to caveat that. Our likely thinking is that we will try and make sure that we provide that kind of transparency around budget in advance of the recruitment cycle that would be in March, April, May of 2022 in advance of September 2022 new staffing.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So, again, the complexity. So the £11.2 million in the Government Plan, the extra resource funding in 2022, table 8 of the annex, for example ... okay, 11.2, that is the money that you are talking about?

Project Director:

It is not all of that because some of that money, for example, is going to go to Highlands. Some of that money reflects the investment in teacher C.P.D. (continuing professional development), but the elements that go directly into school will be put in through the school funding formula. I can clarify exactly which lines and which costs those are.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So we do not have a school funding formula yet so we do not know what that amount will be, but we are being asked to agree an amount, or you do know the amount?

Project Director:

The amount that is in the Government Plan that is incremental funding in 2022 for schools we know very precisely and ...

Deputy R.J. Ward : It is what?

Project Director: Excuse me?

Deputy R.J. Ward : How much is that?

Project Director:

So that is about 6 and a quarter million of additional funding in 2021 and about £7.8 million of additional funding in 2022. So there is a delta in there of an additional £1.5 million ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, you say the delta of additional ... so how much is that for the overspends that as the Minister has agreed have been happening year on year from virtually all schools? Is that money simply going to put schools back to zero and how much of that money is going to take them from zero to somewhere above where they are now, which appears to be inadequate for many? Is this not just emergency funding? Because what I do not get is we do not have the school funding formula but we have a figure that is going to go into schools but it will be determined by the school funding formula. So what of this money is to move schools on and what is just a plaster over the wound of underfunding?

Project Director:

So the independent schools funding review set out a series of incremental funding as agreed in the Government Plan that will be implemented and put into schools in line with the Government Plan over the next 4 years. Where that funding is directly into schools as opposed to Highlands or into teacher C.P.D., that will be undertaken through the funding formula. The funding formula project itself, if I refer you back to the recommendations in the Government Plan, does not carry any incremental funding with it in isolation. It is around distributing the existing funding. As the Minister pointed out, if the funding formula work, however, determines that there is a further shortfall in school funding, then he will consider how that should be positioned through the Government Plan in future cycles of extra funding.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I just clarify a couple of points on the numbers?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, please do.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Jonathan, you mentioned £6.25 million for 2021, £7.8 million for 2022. There was an agreed envelope under the education reform programme of £7.9 million for 2021 and in the 2022 model that we are seeing in the Government Plan, if I refer to appendix 4, which is at page 189, on the Government Plan ... is it the annex or the main ... I do not know, whichever document it is, but it refers to the £11.2 million for 2022. Could you just explain for me what the difference in the numbers are? Because you have referred to 2 very different numbers to what I see in the Government Plan.

Project Director:

Of course, and you are quite right to call out those differences. What I have done is I have just subtracted from the numbers that you quoted funding that is not going directly into schools. So I will give you an example. In each of those numbers that you have quoted, there are some one-off funds that go into the project implementation costs, so I have excluded those. I have also excluded some of the money that will be invested centrally, for example, in bolstering the educational psychology team or in bolstering some of the S.E.N. services. I have also excluded some of the money that is going into Highlands as opposed to the primary and secondary schools, and some of the money that is going into teacher C.P.D. where that is being run centrally as opposed to being given directly to schools. So I can provide that reconciliation to you if that is a help, but the reason there is a difference in what you are describing, Senator, and what I have quoted is I have looked to quote just the money that will be allocated to schools on to their budgets.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

No, that is great, thank you. That just makes it really, really clear. Thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That figure is 6 and a quarter and then 7.8 million?

Project Director:

Yes. What I can do, because I have made some assumptions in there in terms of how we would allocate the funding, I can provide the reconciliation that I have just described verbally in writing for you so you can see how the numbers play out.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So that is money going next year, 6 and a quarter million pounds, directly to schools ...

Senator T.A. Vallois: No, £7.8 million next year.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

£7.8 million next year, sorry, directly to schools and it will be allocated via the school funding review as to where it goes?

[10:30]

Project Director: Correct.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But the school funding review will not be ready until the end of this year or, sorry, the school funding formula will not be ready until the end of this year?

Project Director: Correct.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So how will schools be able to plan? What sort of timescale will they have in order to make use of that money?

Project Director:

So the elements of the school funding formula, which will be provided to them by the end of December, will be very clear on the allocation of that additional £7.8 million. So we are already providing information to schools now, so they already know, for example, and they are planning under existing governance how Jersey premium funding will be spent, and there is a good process for describing the Jersey premium planning. We are well advanced similarly on how we would look to provide funding and schools resources around E.A.L. (English as an additional language). We are less advanced in terms of low prior attainment, but hopefully by the year end we will be advanced enough to give schools insight on that by the end of this year. So ideally, on all those elements, we will be providing schools with clarity by the end of this year. But remember that is not the entirety of school funding. This is just the increment that comes from the funding review.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, and that increment ... I just need to get to the bottom of this increment. Minister, perhaps I can ask you. What is the current deficit in schools for 2022 that this increment would address? Because if we talk about £7.8 million but actually the schools are overspending by £5 million, the actual increase in funding, the increment, is only £2.8 million. So where are we? What figure is the real increment in funding for schools to move them beyond the deficit where they are this year, i.e. to keep going this year?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Obviously, every school is different in how they have overspent and ...

Deputy R.J. Ward : Absolutely, but overall?

The Minister for Children and Education:

... and pressures like COVID have been increasing the deficit of what has been going on. Overall, I would have to hand over to Anne to answer that question.

Business Finance Partner:

At the moment, schools added up ... secondary schools are forecasting £1.2 million overspent, primaries 1.1, so that is 3.3, roughly 3.3, and the special schools about £900,000.

Deputy R.J. Ward : So that is £4.2 million?

Business Finance Partner:

In total. There are some other areas. I think the underlying overspend there is about £2.9 million.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So is that on top of the 4.2 that you have detailed?

Business Finance Partner:'

No, in total because there is some offsetting underspends as well in the central department, so within the Education Directorate we are looking at 2.9 at the moment.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Sorry ...

Business Finance Partner:

The Education Directorate, Sean's area, is currently forecasting £2.9 million overspent. Schools are about 3.2, something like that, and there is some offsetting underspends across the piece. But in total 2.9 is the issue that we have to find.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Does that include Highlands College?

Business Finance Partner:

No, Highlands College is breakeven.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Okay.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just to understand the overspend, I think it is really important to understand the overspend and where they have come about from and why we have the deficits, because part of the funding that was agreed for 2021 was to cover deficits in schools. So can you explain is it because of COVID that these deficits have come about or is it just basic pressure like inflation, cost of living?

Business Finance Partner:

There is some COVID in there, Senator. At the moment we are forecasting about half of that is COVID.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, for both the schools and the directorate?

Business Finance Partner: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So I would be correct in saying from the £7.8 million, once you take the overspend off of that you are left with £4.9 million, which could be additional funding for schools, which will go directly to schools or does that include the C.P.D. for staff, the implementation costs, et cetera? I am just trying to get a figure of how much is going to go directly into schools to solve the problems that were highlighted to us in our scrutiny hearing from governors. I think those concerns would be raised by other governors if I am honest. So what figure are we genuinely talking about? I think that is what people would want to hear as well in terms of the extra money that is going to realistically go in, from a head teacher next year ... if I was a head teacher for every school in the Island, there was one head teacher, and I could say: "This is the amount of extra money you have next year to spend on schools once we have you up to a baseline budget where you are not overspending, you are zero on what you had last year, there you go", do we have that figure?

The Minister for Children and Education:

The figure that was given by Jonathan, that was handed there, had taken out things like the implementation and the project work, so Jonathan made that quite clear. So that was the figure you were given. Anne has just given you what the deficit is and also made it clear that at least half of that is due to COVID pressures, which means that if the COVID pressures go away we take half of the budget, the deficit, add it to the 4.9, so surely we can come up with something that comes up to just over 5 ... 5 or nearly £6 million.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So next year, if we were sat here this time next year - and let us never assume that we would be - we would be able to say that schools have had £5 million of extra money directly into their schools? If we sat with the head teachers of Haute Vallée School, they would say: "Yes, we have seen this extra funding. We are not having to overspend and we are seeing the benefits of this money"?

The Minister for Children and Education: That is what the plan sets out.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. That is a step forward.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Can I just get some clarity on the numbers that are in the Government Plan if possible?

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes, sure.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just in terms of the education reform programme funding as we have mentioned, £11.2 million for 2022, table 8, which is something that the States actually approve, unlike the appendix, refers to revised investments of approximately I think it is £162,000 for new and revised investments in 2022. Can you just explain that to me? Because there is additional money, it is going from what it was for 2021 up to 11.2 for 2022 we can see in the numbers on the appendix 4, but it does not necessarily reflect that new or revised investment under the lines on page 14 of the annex, where you look at inflation, legislative decisions, revised investment, new investments, rebalancing and other variations. So I just want to understand why that is different and whether I am missing something. I probably am, that is why I asked the question.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Let us let everyone catch up to where you are on the page and we will get that answer for you, Senator.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, so I had a question and now it has gone because I was listening to your question. In terms of ... so, sorry, Jonathan, can I just ask you then, with the extra money that we have mentioned, and we got to a figure of around £4.9 million, we are reliant upon the school funding formula, the new school funding formula, to be agreed and implemented to distribute that money. Am I right in thinking that?

Project Director:

Can I just be clear about the numbers? I want to quote the subset of the numbers that are going directly into schools, which is my answer to the Senator earlier. We will be putting £6.2 million into schools this year and that number increases to £7.8 million next year. So, Chair, when you were talking about the forecast deficit for schools this year, that includes the money that has already been added. So I think the important figure that you are trying to get to in terms of extra money in schools' budgets in 2022 from the education reform programme, the answer is an extra £1.6 million. That is the difference between the 6.2 added to the Government Plan this year and the figure of 7.8, which is the equivalent for 2022, the difference being 1.6 extra money into schools in 2022 over 2021 from the reform programme.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. So because that £6 million went into schools this year schools did not have deficits because that money dealt with those deficits?

Project Director:

No, that reduced the deficits but, as Anne has pointed out, regardless of that incremental funding, the 6.2 that came in from the reform programme, we are still in a position of forecast deficit. I think what you are looking at is how will those forecast deficits, all things being equal next year, be reduced by extra funding. Just looking through the lens of the reform programme, they will be reduced by a further 1.6 based on the additional money coming through next year.

Business Finance Partner:

There is also ... in table 8 on that new investment piece there is 678 there of demographic ... that 1078 in new investments is a mixture of 400 for the targeted youth support that we talked about in the other meeting and 678 for demographics. So that ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But if demographics go up, you have to pay for them, so that it sort of becomes ...

Business Finance Partner:

It does catch up with the issue on Mont â l'Alabbé. There are some catch-up demographics in Mont â l'Alabbé in there, so that will also make a difference. So it is Jonathan's number plus the 678.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, but I think that is on a particular issue, so really we are only talking about £1.6 million of extra funding going in across our schools, which, if I can use the phrase, really is peanuts given the demographic pressures we have had. What ...

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

It is not one ... I think you have to look at the whole of the programme. So in 2021, while Jonathan has divided out that money that is going into the formula in due course and that money which is not, the actual total investment in 2021 is 7.946 rising to 11.2. Jonathan has been referring to the difference between 2021 and 2022.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, I get that.

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes, I think it is important that it is ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think, though, Mark, that what we are talking about is ... what I am trying to get down to ... and we can talk about all the other projects and we have quite a lot, but talking about what is specifically going into the front line of schools, into classrooms, to buy books, to buy, as the governors said, pencils, if they are ever used anymore, probably in some subjects, to buy textbooks, for headroom funding, for the funding that is going to go to a department. If I am honest, as an ex head of department, 1st January was always very exciting because you knew what you were going to get and it was never enough to buy books, to buy equipment, to move the curriculum on, to pay for the new curriculum that comes through. There are changes in the curriculum all the time and at the moment it appears that that is £1.6 million of that specific funding for that in schools.

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

So, again, we just need to go back to the overall construction of the investment programme, though. So off the back of the independent review it was recommended, and agreed to subsequently, that 5 and a half million a year recurrently should go into dealing with the structural deficit principally in secondary schools. So the number is bigger ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We understand that and we absolutely say marvellous, well done, but that has really just dealt with the deficit. Do you see what I mean? If you are running a department that was not going anywhere because of a deficit or you were dragging ... and we will come on to the pressure on staff ... and that was a recurring deficit that had to be dealt with and then you got that money so, right, we are going to get you up to scratch now to zero, I would not see that as additional investment. I would say that is your lifeline, now where is the additional funding?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Chairman, the money that has gone in through this year and the money that is being planned, we have not told schools: "You cannot have money and you cannot run a deficit." When the schools have said they need to spend the money, they have spent the money and we have done that. The money has gone in through this year's Government Plan and next year's, meaning that the deficit should no longer be there, which means they have the resources to run their schools as they have been running plus extra money. We need to look at that as well. Whether it is peanuts or not, it takes schools out of a position where they have to sit in a deficit. So I think that is really good and that is something that has been laid out, like I say, before my time but it is dealing with an idea that the schools do not have to go and the governors do not have to sign off a deficit because we are putting the money in to get them to where they are for spending.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, but I think we can agree that that was no way to run schools, having to constantly go into deficit for the basics.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I agree with you, Chairman, absolutely, but something is being dealt with where more monies are going in, correct.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is correct, but more money is going in to just get rid of deficit that has already been spent because they had to spend it.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, that is fine. What we were talking about is the additional funding, because a lot has been made of additional funding. It is additional funding but it is not going to increase the additional resources to schools, it is just getting them to stand still. That is the issue that I think needs to be highlighted so that we all know where we are with the funding of schools and we do not have governors coming to us next year saying in the Scrutiny Panel: "Have your sign back because you are not dealing with children first because we have to run a deficit." Can we categorically say there will not be any schools running a deficit next year because they simply do not have the money for the basics?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I wish I had a crystal ball, Chairman, but I do not know if COVID will get worse, I do not know what is going to be going on in that manner. I could hardly say to you right now 100 per cent that there is not going to be a big problem that causes something ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think there is £15 million in the Government Plan for COVID recovery, for COVID health recovery, et cetera, so there would be money from there. Surely, Minister, you would say that needs to go into schools. So I think we have to move on from the COVID issue.

[10:45]

The Minister for Children and Education:

There is money that is going into schools as well. I think that we will move on from the COVID issue when COVID is over, Chairman.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, but there has been an historic deficit in schools before COVID as well.

The Minister for Children and Education:

There has been an historic deficit in schools. Of course, I have only been the Minister since June, Chairman, and that historic deficit I do not think I can be held to account for in this meeting.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What I am asking you is exactly that, the future now you are Minister. Can you categorically say that you will make sure there will be no deficits in schools and governors will not be able to make that decision next year?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Chairman, I am telling you that the work is going on in the inclusion room, the work is going on with teachers involved in the education reform programme, and if I can say anything, that work is so important to try and get us to the right place forwards but it has to be informed. That work is going on. It was started with Senator Vallois. I am continuing that piece of work, which is so important that we get the information so we can deal with those. If the funding formula and things go on that say we do not have enough money and we need to put more in there, I will go and ask for more money. I have no problem with that. I will follow the process and I will go and ask and I will go and plead with the Council of Ministers and plead with the Minister for Treasury and Resources that we need this money. But at the moment we can only deal with taxpayers' money through an evidence- based programme, which is what we have tried to do with inclusion.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. Sorry, I have been going on a bit, I apologise.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

It is okay, it is just a follow-up question to that but another area that we have not touched on under the education funding programme. So just in terms of reassurance from yourself as Minister, of course up until the elections next year, because we do not know what the Government is going to look like, but ensuring that children do not lose the quality of the curriculum, whether that is through arts or whether that is through other lessons that they have, because that was something out of the school funding review was a curriculum-based consideration to make efficiencies. So for next year, while you are Minister, would you give an assurance that those children can still receive quality-rich curriculum at their schools?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I guess I would like to make sure that that does happen. It is up to the ... the schools will have to come and tell me if they feel they cannot deliver on those areas. There are areas with the curriculum that I want to be looking at, but it is not to do with the Government Plan, I guess, at the moment, for making sure that we are getting the curriculum right. That is in I.T. (information technology) education, that is in the P.S.H.E. (personal, social and health education), which I was told quite clearly from the Youth Assembly that they felt that it was not good enough. That is where I am looking at.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

But it is quite fundamental to ask that question because the curriculum is really kind of the base funding. If you do not have all of the subjects, you will not necessarily have to spend as much money. You are chair of the curriculum board. So you get pressure - I know, I have been a Minister for Education previously - from different areas of the public wanting more in the curriculum. So I just want to be assured and I want the public to be assured that at least for 2022 our children will not lose the richness of the curriculum they are receiving at the moment, and if you could try your best I would appreciate that. So that was the reason why I asked the question.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I have no intention of letting it slip. I will be meeting with the curriculum council to talk about a number of different areas of the curriculum. I will raise this very issue in that matter quite happily, Senator, and say the plan that was set out originally by yourself is not one that sits within a political term. It is a long-term plan that you set out and you should be absolutely applauded for making sure that this is something that is going to go on across political terms because it is the right thing to do and it is in the right direction.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Thank you. I do not take compliments very well.

The Minister for Children and Education: I know you do not.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

The other question that I was going to ask was about the teacher development fund. So part of the funding for 2021 was about the teacher development fund. Where are we with that? I think it is useful just to know where we are with the teacher development fund because quality of teachers is one of the bedrocks of education reform.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It is an important part, it is not just about putting funding into and it is not just about money, it is about making sure we support our teachers in their development as the world changes. Can I hand over to Jonathan who I think has been dealing with this again?

Project Director:

Thank you. So I will give you 3 specific things that we have done this year towards the improvement in quality of teaching. Remember again this is work in progress. We have more funding and will be developing more things in 2022 and beyond. This year, we have put or we are putting all of the S.E.N.C.O.s (special educational needs co-ordinators) through a national accreditation, a thing called N.A.S.E.N.C.O. (National Award for Special Educational Needs Co-ordination), which looks at supporting the capability and capacity of that group. That directly impacts the S.E.N.C.O. cohort. It indirectly impacts all of the S.E.N.C.O. planning and training in schools with all teachers. That is under way. We have also launched some additional funding and support for newly qualified or recently qualified teachers through a myriad of different components, including coaching and mentoring in schools and also looking to recruit someone to directly lead this much more well- structured, if you like, and developed piece around teachers in their early career. We are also undertaking, linked to our English as an additional language cohort of pupils, some work from the Bell Foundation on proficiency in English in order to much better drive the allocation of resources and, therefore, the support to pupils with that additional set of requirements. So those are 3 areas where we have invested this year and in all of those areas teachers, S.E.N.C.O.s, are undertaking training and have benefit of support now. We have also spent some of the investment funds on providing cover for schools to enable teachers or S.E.N.C.O.s to be released because it was recognised by head teachers that one of the blockers was the need to continue, of course, to run classes as normal with teachers or S.E.N.C.O.s out of the school undertaking training. So part of the funding has gone into the training and part of the funding has gone into providing cover to unlock staff to undertake the training.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just ask a couple of things on that? One of the things that was highlighted, Minister, from a previous hearing was the pressure on teaching staff, and it was mentioned that 60 or 70-hour weeks was not uncommon for staff and then they were being asked to come in and do breakfast clubs, for

example. With well-intentioned training, great idea, we need to train our staff. We made some recommendations in a teacher recruitment and retention report that we produced a year and a half ago. I think it might have even been longer than that, actually. There has been a lot of talk about teacher workload. Will you commit to looking again at teacher workload and the pressure that we are putting teachers under, particularly after COVID, because they have not not been working. Teachers have brought the classroom into their homes as much as anything and it has put pressure on them. What are we doing regards workload in the current position as well, which was again something that was highlighted to us?

The Minister for Children and Education: Can I hand over to you?

Group Director, Education:

Yes, thank you, Minister. Chair, COVID has had an impact, a significant one, and teachers and the staff who support them have been heroic, I think. I think there is broad agreement on that. The additional training is not additional workload. So the focus of the question on the additional resource that Senator Vallois initially raised and Jonathan gave specific examples of the special educational needs co-ordinators in 2 cohorts all being the career-entry teachers. You will be aware that work preceded that on workload. We worked very well with the unions on workload documentation to reduce excessive workload around marking, around assessment, around what might be deemed less necessary meetings in the workplace. We have kept a strong eye on that. Throughout the COVID period we have met with our union colleagues every single week, and the workload focus of keeping schools open as much as possible throughout the pandemic and safely has been a challenge. So we are working centrally with pupil services on a much stronger offer on the wider well-being because a lot of the teaching has become even more focused and challenging in this COVID period. But the ongoing work around excess workload preceded COVID and continues.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of training, you have mentioned those new to the profession and you have mentioned S.E.N.C.O.s. What about the vast majority of teachers who are going through a teaching career and can sometimes never undertake specific individual training because they cannot get cover, they cannot get people there, and their training consists of an after-school session in a hall with 100 other people, which is totally inadequate and does nothing in terms of your own C.P.D.? Will that be addressed in this programme? Is there the money to do that? Is there the cover staff to do that?

Group Director, Education:

Again, you ask a really important question or series of questions or a question in several parts. Resourcing of cover is built into the training offer, otherwise it cannot happen. There is always that tension between taking a high-calibre teacher away from her class or subjects and the quality of the backfill. We have some very talented supply teachers but too few of them. Coming to your point, the lead deliverer of C.P.D. is the school, the weekly twilight session that is built into teachers' contracts, so enhancing that quality of work with school leadership. In terms of central resource, Jonathan has given the ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, can I just stop you there? So there is a weekly twilight session built into teachers' contracts?

Group Director, Education:

The inset session, the hour a week or the hour and a quarter a week. It is part of the normal diet of a teaching week where the children and young people are not present, and the staff gather departmentally or whole staff in the twilight C.P.D.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So it is an hour and a half weekly meeting and that is the limit to that, is it? They are used for inset?

Group Director, Education:

No, that is what is ongoing. The 3 inset days a year and the weekly session is in the normal diet of training and development. This resource is giving extra on top of that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. I will just say that as regards that one and a half weekly inset, they are often just departmental meetings, are they not? I do not think putting them into an inset programme is ... I mean structured inset and career development in those one and a half hours a week. But perhaps we are going off topic with the Government Plan here. That is something I think for a later date. Have you seen ... and I think this is linked to the Government Plan because the increased funding, et cetera, will be absolutely crucial if it is going to be used correctly to have staff. What pressures are there on staffing this year? How is recruitment and retention going? Because that is something we highlighted some time ago and we have had concerns. Before you say it is across the Island, we do know that but we are talking specifically about education.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I am led to believe in primary schools staff retention is quite high. There is not a big turnover of staff in primary schools and primary school teachers, but in secondary there is some challenges, I believe, Sean?

Group Director, Education:

Yes, the Minister is quite correct, Chair. In secondary schools with certain specialist subjects ... and it might change. It might be geography - it has already been one of the sciences - where there are challenges with recruitment. We are building in as part of the C.Y.P.E.S. representation, for example, to the key worker accommodation piece. We are across the primary estate fully staffed. There is always that lag between resignation date that happened ... yesterday was technically the day, so anybody resigning up to yesterday will depart their current school at Christmas and there will be a delay in recruitment but those processes run very smoothly. There is challenge with the breadth of the supply list. That is feedback we get from heads.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, just one small thing before we move on, and we will move on. I know we have used a lot of time on this but I think it has been very useful. There have been issues raised with us about the actual recruitment process and the time it takes to put an advert out. In particular, with newly qualified staff in the U.K., we seem to miss by a couple of weeks the date where they go out because of the systems that we use. Has there been an improvement in the systems? It is something we highlighted in our recruitment and retention report about the speed at which adverts can go out. I cannot remember the system that is used there, the name of it. Talent Link, that is the one.

Group Director, Education:

Yes, that whole process - I think there may be colleagues who are more up to date - is part of the legacy systems that the new integrated ...

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, and that is why I asked the question. We have a legacy system which, let us be honest, was not very good. How are we going with Talent Link? Is it going to work for this year in order to not miss those issues?

The Minister for Children and Education: That was very calmly said. It is appalling, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, absolutely, but it is still there and we are still using it and there are still the delays between applying for posts and ... I know people who are in post and still are not being paid properly for it because they missed cut-off dates.

The Minister for Children and Education:

That is where, as I say, the programme of works for change to try and update it is happening. I wish all of this stuff can happen just overnight but it is just not that feasible. But maybe Mark ...?

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

I agree, we are on a programme of change, are we not, through the I.T.S. (Integrated Technology Solution) reforms and in due course it will sort out a whole load of legacy issues that right now I think are not fully resolved, you are right. I do think we have a better system at least of signing off vacancies, much better oversight in terms of school to director to myself, but you are right, there will still be glitches until I.T.S. delivers the results.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We had better move on. Do you want to ask about the early years because we only have half an hour?

Senator T.A. Vallois:

I think just because of the time I will go through, just page 189 of the Government Plan, there is appendix 4.

[11:00]

It has some allocations for 2022 under your remit, Minister. It states: "£1.277 million allocation for early years." We know that the report was published. We know that there is 30 hours, as from this September. What is the £1.277 million for? I think that is a simple question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is in the main Government Plan, not the annex.

Business Finance Partner: What page?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Page 189 and it is: "Protecting and supporting children, G.P. (general practitioner) 20s, Common Strategic Policy 2.02." I do not like the way they have set the tables out, by the way, but anyway, just a personal dislike in my point and do them again: "The schools and education early years £1.2 million and then £1.76 million recurring", which I know is a prediction for next year's, is it not, we have worked that out?

Senator T.A. Vallois:

We only agreed 2022, so just concentrate on what the £1.277 million for early years is for 2022 allocation. If you go on to the page underneath where you have got there, Minister.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I can say from the Policy Development Board paper, I have been working with Jonathan. He is looking at the recommendations for the Early Years Policy Development Board and how that can all go together and we can start putting up recommendations because there is funding that is allocated within it. As far as the £1.27 million, I am going to have to go Anne and ask her if she has the breakdown.

Business Finance Partner: I have not got it on me.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, on that basis then in terms of the work you are doing

Business Finance Partner:

I will look, I will raise my hand when I find it.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay. The work that you are doing with regards the Early Years Policy Development Board report and the work you are doing with Jonathan, is that to create some form of action plan that comes out of those recommendations?

The Minister for Children and Education: Jonathan is there but, yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay. Do we have a timescale that we could see that and who you are consulting with to put that action plan together?

The Minister for Children and Education:

As I say, it is fairly recent but I have asked Jonathan to go and look through the recommendations and come up with an action plan, the funding for how it is implemented. Jonathan is here and we can ask him to see where he is at with it.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

That would be helpful, thank you.

Project Director:

Sorry, I think I heard a question around what the plans are, what the timescales are and who has been consulted, is that correct, Minister?

The Minister for Children and Education: That is correct, Jonathan.

Project Director:

Thank you. Under a guidance and a request from the Minister, we have pulled together all of the recommendations from the Early Years Policy Development Board and also a host of other recommendations in the early years centre, which drive different sources. For example, there are a number of COVID bits which provide some single or multi-year funding. There are also some existing action plans from the Best Start Partnership and also, of course, the business-as-usual change. A long story short, there is an awful lot of intended activity, some of which is funded on a recurring basis, some of which is funded on a one-off basis, some of which is unfunded. In order to try and crash through this into something which makes it nice and clear and simple, we have engaged a programme manager to lead a piece of work to pull together a long list of all of those activities to determine what is funded and what is not, through an engagement process of a wide number of stakeholders come up with a specific action plan which looks at what we will be delivering. I think at the moment we are going to keep it quite simple, so look on a half-year basis, starting first half of 2022 and then being re-planned on a 6-monthly basis. We are engaging the Best Start Partnership as our lead consultation group because that is a well-formed group, it has good representation. It also has some independence in there through the independent chair. That is our consultation group and we intend, by the end of this month, possibly the first week or 2 in December, to conclude on what our half-2022 action plan will be in the context of the early years group and we will be looking to present that to the Minister for his support.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, just to clarify then, is it a 2022 action plan or is it a long-term action plan or is it a medium- term action plan? I just need to understand because there is a few things

The Minister for Children and Education: I think it is a long term, yes, and

Senator T.A. Vallois:

No, it is helpful just to know. If we have an action plan in place it might not all be done in 2022, so just understanding what that means.

The Minister for Children and Education:

For me it is about getting the understanding of what is funded, what is not funded, how we can get it delivered and get that plan in place. I think this will cross the term of this Assembly, so whoever is in post to the Minister next term, this should be the basis of their decision-making about the policy.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, thank you. I think Anne has an answer to the question.

Business Finance Partner:

It is the N.E.F. (Nursery Education Fund).

Senator T.A. Vallois:

That is the 30 hours, okay, that is great.

Business Finance Partner: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

I just wanted to confirm that exact amount.

Business Finance Partner:

I thought there might be something else in there as well but there is not, there are some

Group Director, Education:

It is more hours and a higher rate obviously.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Yes, okay. Just there is 2 other lines there which refer to: "Improving standards £1.2 million for 2022 and school funding and demographics £1.216 million", which we are coming on to demographics next, but mostly improving standards £1.2 million. What does improving standards mean and where does that money go?

The Minister for Children and Education: It is the next line down.

Business Finance Partner: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Because that is in addition to the education reform programme, is it not?

Business Finance Partner:

Yes, so that has been brought forward from the previous Government Plan and that - I am trying to remember this now - had £2.74 million of demographics brought forward and it had some of the what else was in there? I have to go back and find it, so £2.74 million was demographics, it was somewhere in there.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Is improving standards about the school review framework?

Business Finance Partner: No, it is

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Are school reviews happening at the moment with COVID?

Group Director, Education:

No, they have been suspended because of COVID regulations. We have been having virtual visits where one of the external leads meets with the head and the leadership team for a touch base, a development meeting, but there are no school reviews at this time.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

There are no school reviews and there are not staff performance plans as a result of those meetings?

Group Director, Education:

No, that is not the nature of the work.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No. Just while you are looking for that, when you do school reviews, do you take into account extracurricular activities as part of the overall performance of the school?

Group Director, Education:

By definition extracurricular is not one of the requirements but young people often give feedback on what is great about school and what they enrich.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, so it is not reported on. Because one of the inequities that we have had raised with us is that in some schools extracurricular activities are much greater because they have more funding. Other schools where you are asking teachers who are doing 60, 70 hours to take those on will not be paid for it; they will not have as many extracurricular activities. If that is in the school review framework, I just raise that with you to make you aware of it. I am just conscious of time and we have a lot to get through.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

If you move on to the education and demographic

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I know we have spent a lot time at the beginning talking about from the previous scrutiny hearing that we did on Monday. Is it worth having another meeting put in before the Government Plan? I know you are very busy.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We may do and if any questions arise we will put in writing as well but I think we have still got some time to get through some key things.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of the demographics, you have asked about those and we are waiting for those answers and what

Senator T.A. Vallois:

It is more the improving standards but you can cover the demographics in the other areas, as mentioned.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes. It says can you give an overview of the rationale for the additional funding on the annex on page 86 on demographic pressures? Is that purely the number of students increasing because of the fluctuations in birth rates which run through into school after 5, 10, 15 years? I am assuming that is the case. Would I be right in saying if you got more students you would need more money to pay to fund the extra in accordance with the pupil funding system?

Business Finance Partner:

It is partly that and there is some catch-up from Mont à l'Abbé because we had not done a numbers catch-up from Mont à l'Abbé for some years.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

In terms of saying that Mont à l'Abbé has grown but they have not had the funding appropriately.

Business Finance Partner:

Because they are not in the A.W.P.U. (Age Weighted Pupil Unit) they have not had that, so we are catching up on Mont à l'Abbé.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, A.W.P.U. is the Age Weighted Pupil Unit, which is the way in which we fund schools per pupil. I say that because a comment is always made at public hearings about using ... and I absolutely agree and I apologise to those who are listening if we have slipped into that. We should not be doing that, you are absolutely correct.

The Minister for Children and Education: I think we have been quite good this time.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I think we have not been too bad but this is a public hearing and we need to remember our audience, so to speak. Can I ask a little about efficiencies because I wanted to ask about that? On page 84, I believe it is, just let me get the page. It is page 86 of the actual Government Plan, not the annex, is an efficiency for the Minister, for yourself of £496,000. That is detailed later as £440,000 of spend reduction on staff, which is recurring. Can you just put some detail on that for us?

The Minister for Children and Education:

None of that is in the education space, that all falls within the other areas of C.Y.P.E.S. We discussed it last Friday at the hearing we had with Children's Services, so that was in Susan Devlin's department there, yes, so that is where that money is from.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have had concerns raised with me, there is a comment regards: "The non-pay inflation efficiency will increase by the same value." Is that simply going to mean that teaching staff cannot expect any sort of pay rise?

The Minister for Children and Education:

No, that is not what it means at all. The non-staff inflation part of it that was there was money that is held back by the Treasury and I think went through it again, we went through this on Friday of inflationary money that has never been used, so that was something that was there to help some of the pressures.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, that was a direct question on his email, so it is good for us to get those questions and be able to ask them. Do you want to briefly on

Senator T.A. Vallois:

No, just on the efficiencies because I think it is really important to play devil's advocate from both sides, page 88 where it talks about management of inflationary pressures but it says: "C.Y.P.E.S. and I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) have undertaken reviews of all service areas and are unable to identify efficiency saving measures or proposals to deliver the full value of their targets."

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think that is Treasury being upset at me. I was asked to take a further £2 million out of the budget for C.Y.P.E.S. on the rebalancing. I refused, I would not allow it to happen because I felt that it would affect front line services for education and, therefore, I asked Treasury to go and find somewhere else and leave education alone, okay, and that is where that is. This is where I have turned around and said that as the Minister.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

But will it not have an impact? As I understand the way that the budgets work, you have basically a general reserve that sits in Treasury for your non-staff inflation. If you are unable to meet the 3 per cent targets that are the latest round of what we would call pots, is probably the easiest way to put it, then that non-staff inflation you will not receive. Will that not mean we go back to an issue of not having pencils and basics in schools again? I think it is really important to understand what that means.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think that is where it can go to and this is where this money has always been set, the non-staff inflation money has always been set year on year within Treasury, it has never been drawn down or called upon. Is that correct, Anne?

Business Finance Partner:

From our point of view we have not, in Children, Young People, Education and Skills, had anything from that reserve since 2014. When we put our business cases in for demographics and whatever, we have attempted to do them at current prices. If we are successful with pursuing that, we should be caught up with the previous year at least but it is a de facto pressure to absorb in year and has been since 2014.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, so just to clarify though, your demographic pressure amount, your demographics increase would really cover what you are saying is non-staff inflation to a certain extent.

Business Finance Partner:

To the extent up to the end of last year probably, rather than anticipating the next year it should do. We should be close, not too long

Senator T.A. Vallois:

The demographic pressure is based on the 1992 Age Weighted Pupil Unit in terms of how much it costs per pupil.

Business Finance Partner:

But it does not remain the same every year because we adjust it for pay awards that we are funded for and we adjust it for any additional sums that we secure through the previous and Medium Term Financial Plan and Government Plan process, so it does not remain completely static. I would agree, though, that we have not kept pace with inflation and we have not had inflation into our bottom line in that period and we have managed the best we can. But we have had some funding which has mitigated that.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Okay, thank you.

[11:15]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is an extremely good question you asked there because if we are using the Age Weighted Pupil ratio from 1992 but we are about to get a new school funding system which, let us be honest, we all know it is going to increase it, then that demographic money could be inadequate, could it not, and it may be something that needs to be looked at? Because part of that demographic is increasing numbers. If that increasing number is underfunded, that entire demographic increase will be underfunded, so it could be another funding pressure, could it not?

Business Finance Partner:

It could be, yes, that is possible

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It is probably likely to be, given the way that it is funded. Have I spelt that out because my note in my head and I thought I ought to vocalise it?

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think you have hit the nail on the head, so to speak, Chair.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, thank you. Do you want to ask a bit about higher education, then I will go on to the

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Yes, I am just working out which paper.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We should be able to get through the vast majority if we wanted to, I think.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Just it would be helpful, Minister, if we could have an update on the new funding proposals for higher education, if any.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It has been a massive piece of work being done to understand the higher education and how much money in what sectors and the likes because we have struggled with record-keeping and which we have now caught up to date with. At the moment we are looking at the higher education funding and what we can see within the good news stories is what we can see is year on year and more and more children have been funded to go to university, which I think is a great success story for us. The funding model itself as it looks hits proportionately higher to the lower-end incomes for students going to university. On that view with the changes that is going on, I am looking at possible increases

in the funding on a R.P.I. (Retail Price Index) level at the moment but I am not going to be proposing any substantive changes to it because the evidence that is showing in front of me is that the right demographics are getting this caught at the highest level and it is pretty consistent.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay. I will go back to my page of 189 because I think it is useful in terms of the cut down of numbers but it states: "Higher education for 2022 £2.6 million." That allocated funding is for the current model of higher education.

The Minister for Children and Education: Yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

What is projected is under that current model or with the drop in 2023 allocation from that £2.6 million down to £2 million, is that expected to make efficiencies in the plans for the new higher education model?

Business Finance Partner:

In 2023 that is the assumption built into that model.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Okay.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Just a quick question on that and there is talk in the U.K. of them cutting the cost of tuition fees. If that was to happen, would you keep the funding in order to help more people or would you accept a cut in funding?

The Minister for Children and Education:

The estimates that we have given to the higher education funding year on year has been more than what the actual pressure has been, right, so there is not people that are putting in for higher education funding that were turning down for any reason. We have been estimating far higher levels of funding for higher education than what has been the uptake. If the fees go down it will not change the fact that we have money left over year on year and nobody is being prevented from going to university because of allocation of funds.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am just wondering whether that could be extended to Masters and PhD funding, which is difficult to obtain here.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I am looking at that as a separate piece of work as well.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, because that was a bit of an aside there.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

I think the only other thing to understand is, what impact COVID has had on the higher education budget and if that has had any impact at all and what that might look like going forward because it might be one of those change models?

The Minister for Children and Education:

We have seen, again, an increase in children going to university year on year, so even through the COVID period over the last, let us say, 2 years there still has been a year-on-year increase on funding for higher education through our scheme, which is great.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

No, it is great news that we see more of our students going to obtain their potential, I think that is the best way to put it. But in terms of measuring because another part of the Government Plan is Jersey performance framework, is our performance as a public sector. Are we able to measure that and would you look at measuring that in terms of whether that is because of the outcomes of the education system that we have in Jersey or whether that is because of the change in the funding model or is it the 2 combined? How would we see that measurement because I think that is important to inform policy development and inform the way that we move forward, not just with education as a whole but how we support higher education?

The Minister for Children and Education:

Obviously the information we collect certainly on performance through higher education is only through the children that do their funding through the higher education funding. There are children and families that fully fund higher education and we do not really have that level of information because they are not one of our customers or clients have for those children. But I do believe - and Sean might correct me if I am wrong - that we do collect information based on performance, on the level of children that are funded through the higher education funding.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, and just

The Minister for Children and Education:

I am correct, am I not, Sean? I have been listening, yes.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

That is good to know. I was going to ask another question, it has just gone completely out of my head, so I will hand back to the Chair.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The capital projects, the school estates and the school sites review, funding of £1.25 million is allocated to the projects from 2022. Can you provide an overview of what this funding will be spent on?

The Minister for Children and Education: That is for the school funding review?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is the school sites review, it comes under school sites. Unfortunately, I do not have the page number and I have moved the page to other pages now; that can desperately look for a page number. But it is basically Government Project 22, Common Strategic Policy 1, Capital School Sites Review, it is page 38, thank you. This is why we ask the question, is this the wider school sites review because

The Minister for Children and Education:

This is the St. Helier school sites review, so this is the work that has been going on to identify demographic pressures for new schools in St. Helier , so that is where the funding starts looking at there. Sorry, the amount, did you have it written down in front of you, Chair?

Deputy R.J. Ward : £1.25 million.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes. The work has been ongoing. I think from the meetings I have had last week we are really in a good place to start, that will go forward with what that could look like. As in the funding, I will have to go to Anne, who will let me know how that breakdown is happening.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Sorry, just as you are doing that, so it is the school sites review, the current status of that is that we will have an outcome soon.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I have seen the work that has been going on, I have had a meeting about that last week. I am not going to say too much now, apart from I have put forward to the officers quite clearly where I would like to see that move forward and what sites I think would be the best one, then I have to get that written up, which is happening now. That will go to yourselves and the Council of Ministers, so I will be coming to you and I am quite excited about it but I look forward to showing you what I feel is the right direction from the work that is being done.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Because obviously we scrutinise Home Affairs as well and they have £500,000 put aside for the Rouge Bouillon site for the new fire and ambulance. I know that that is dependent upon the school sites review as well.

The Minister for Children and Education:

It absolutely is and that is why I want to move forward with it and I think we have a really exciting proposal to go forward.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. There is also a schedule of improvement over the next 4 years in the Government Plan and there is £25,350,000 been allocated to the project. What improvements does that cover, that money? Again, I am afraid I do not have the page number, probably because it is spread all over the place, to be quite frank; that is a summary of the sort of capital improvements. I think it is really important that we can allocate where that money is going to because I know that in this year's Government Plan £19 million has been returned from capital improvements that did not happen. Are they school improvements?

The Minister for Children and Education:

In the capital programme, of course, we have La Moye School Hall and classroom extensions, the Les Landes Nursery. We have the Jersey College Prep and Jersey College for Girls musical facilities. Hopefully, we have somewhere to go forward there and I am waiting to hear back from that, and the Jersey and special music service, the Mont à l'Abbé extension, the Mont à l'Abbé Secondary School. We have the college prep replacement schoolwork that is going on, Le Squez centre and community centre, the north of St. Helier youth and community centre money is in there. I think I have something for you there as well when I talk to you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Marvellous, and I have something in the Government Plan in case, the Island Plan, sorry.

The Minister for Children and Education:

The Island Plan, yes. The redesign of green fields, St. John and St. Grainville school fields, St. Aubin's Fort upgrade with some school replacement work, the playing fields at J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and J.C.P. (Jersey College Prep), north of St. Helier 's School, south of St. Helier 's School, so there is a whole myriad of capital programmes that are set out over this Government Plan.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What are the key priorities, capital priorities, in education? There is a lot there. Which one of those are prioritised? I mentioned the St. Helier primary schools, Rouge Bouillon, Springfield. I will urge you to go into Springfield regularly; they need help, they need improvements.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Les Landes Nursery is clear and Mont à l'Abbé, the monies are there. Where I look at where the monies are for 2022 that is clearly where our priorities are because they are what start within the next year. We have the Jersey Instrumental Music Service premises, the music facilities for J.C.G. and J.C.P., the extension to La Moye Hall and additional classrooms at La Moye.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, I think you went through those just now. I was just asking about

The Minister for Children and Education:

Yes, so they are the priorities because they are the ones that we put money

Deputy R.J. Ward :

The town primaries, Rouge Bouillons are not in there at all or are they part of the school sites review that will see some action in 2022?

The Minister for Children and Education: They were part of the review.

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills: They are in the feasibility stages, so we are not there at the moment, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, okay.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Will we see a spade in the ground for any of them in 2022?

The Minister for Children and Education:

The monies are set out for 2023, though if we are coming up

Deputy R.J. Ward :

They have been there for the last 3 years.

The Minister for Children and Education: They have, yes, it has not been easy, Chair.

Deputy R.J. Ward : No, I know, I know.

The Minister for Children and Education: I think everyone has lost sleep over this one.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Most certainly, yes.

The Minister for Children and Education: I know you have, Chair.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Let us hope that we get the new facility built and we get some help for Rouge Bouillon and the town centre schools because

The Minister for Children and Education: That is in my plan.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

they desperately need it. In terms of the intensive support, could you provide the panel with a breakdown of how the £400,000 for this project is allocated between services? We spoke to the Minister for Home Affairs regards this as well.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Yes, I think we mentioned it under the children's remit.

The Minister for Children and Education: You did, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, we mentioned it under the children's remit.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

But because it comes under C.Y.P.E.S., J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs), the H.C.S. (Health and Community Services) and of course yourself, as Minister for Children and Education, I suppose it is understanding of course, we heard from the governors last week about, in particular, requesting some funding for a behavioural support unit of forms but it mentioned it involved wraparound support encompassing education, youth workers, social workers, psychological and therapeutic support. I think it is just helpful to put it in layman's terms. What is the £400,000? What does that look like in terms of tangible benefit for individuals?

The Minister for Children and Education: Mark, can I ask you to

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Essentially, build a new team, so this year we have re-purposed some money within the commissioning and integrated services budget to start to create a group of people who are focused on the small but quite needy dozen or so adolescents who I guess people have heard about, one way or another. We have started the work already from existing resources and that team consists of all those things that you have just read out, family support workers, counsel workers, et cetera. Around just south of £1 million worth of money is presently going into that, about £900,000 I think is where we are this year. The £400,000 is to complete the build of that team next year, so that we have got sufficient resource for the numbers of youngsters we are expecting.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

How does education fit into that? We have funding for things like social emotional mental health, social educational needs, English as an additional language. We know the children, whether it is through autism or disabilities, that that percentage increased in terms of the support for those. I understand this is about a small cohort but when we hear from particularly secondary schools where they think they might have an ability to have early intervention and to support, how does it work in particular with schools and, therefore, that team?

The Minister for Children and Education:

You heard on Friday from the Governors about a plan that they had. When I went to Haute Vallée School we had a long meeting at the end that was referenced within their submission and they came to me with a proposal to look at something within the school. It was a high-level idea that they want to do.

[11:30]

I have been very supportive of them and I have asked them to work with Sean and Susan Devlin and Mark Owers to bring forward a clear proposal to work within schools with social workers to do that work. I was absolutely supportive but I told them I cannot just work at this level. The plan needs to be clear, it needs to be not shoehorned and it needs to be about delivering the services in the right place for the children. That is something that I was clearly and heavily supportive of when I went and spoke to her about it.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

But I think that is important for yourself to explain clearly what this means in tangible benefits, specifically for those small cohorts. But if you have front line teachers, people who are specialised in behavioural support, I mean, we heard from the Project Manager about educational reform programme before; S.E.N.C.O. is getting this accreditation. You have some of these really important skills within the education setting, so it is the clarity around what this team means and how that impacts the education.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Part of it is about training that we offer to both teachers and

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I also say it is the tangibles, it is what is it going to like in the classroom for those very challenging young people who may not be in the classroom because they do not go? There was the offer of a facility there and I think there has been the offer of a facility at Grainville School as well, where they can access education in a particular way, so that part of the school campus but perhaps not in the school. To me that is money well spent but it does not seem to be happening but we are building another team and that is why we asked about the tangible. Sorry, it is a rather long

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Let me just give you 2 concrete examples of what the money will get spent on then. For example, the Head of Inclusion, Jane Lancaster-Adlam, is now on the point of being able to recruit for the first time, I think, here ever, Sean, workers, average workers who from her service, so beyond the psychology, beyond S.E.N.C.O., who can go and work in schools and support both students and staff to develop strategies that will help those youngsters stay in education. That is one example. I think some of the excellence funding that we are going to be using across the piece will also be augmented through the service to help more trauma-informed practice develop. We have more staff who understand more about why it is that these youngsters have the needs that they have and what can be done to support them. That is the kind of practical investment that that money will go into, better training, additional staff, so schools will see the benefit of workers coming in on a level that they do not at the moment.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I have to ask it this way, I am sorry about this, but is there an ideological opposition to the notion of the sort of facility that I hope that I want to develop and I believe Grainville want to develop and perhaps other schools do, which does remove some students from the classroom and put them in a particular environment, still in the campus? But because of the belief that we cannot be damaging the classroom constantly, putting more pressure on the children in that classroom and the staff in that classroom, but we can intervene then and we can change behaviour and try and get these children back into school. Is it an ideological issue or is it simply that you think the best way to do it is to put those people because I think both would work?

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Yes. I do not think it is ideological. What I really think is happening is that having finally commissioned and undertaken the inclusion review, what it will say and the recommendations it will make in due course will prompt exactly that kind of debate about what kind of model do we want.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But that debate has been going on for years in schools. It has been going on since 2000 when I arrived here.

Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

But it gives the wider government a chance to get behind this because our youngsters who can be challenging to teachers are also challenging to the police, to probation, to social workers, to C.A.M.H.S. workers. This inclusion review is different, I think, from debates that might have been had in the past because the whole of government is going to have to come to a view around how it does want to care for these young people. You can see in other domains why this is important. In the youth justice space we have those who would go for more punitive measures, introduce new interventions, whereas we have others who would say: where is the therapeutic side of this?

That is exactly why we asked you because we have seen a different approach from other areas.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I support it, what I want to make sure is there is no duplication and it is where it is best for the child. If the children are happy and being dealt with within the school and that can look good and what that looks like, that is right, I do not want duplication of that, I do not want children having to say one thing to one social worker and then go somewhere else and say exactly the same thing to another social worker. That will not happen at all. It is about what is right for that child in the support that they need.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Sorry, I know we have gone over but the inclusion review I feel is really important, not just for regards to the intents of youth but right across the board. Like I mentioned, the demands that schools are facing, whether that is with disability special educational needs but, Minister, you have a legal duty to provide special educational needs to every school. It is not just our States schools, it is fee-paying schools as well. When will we have an end date, an action plan from the inclusion review so we can have this debate? Not just as a Government, I think it should be as an Assembly because it touches on all different areas and for you to be able to fulfil your legal duty.

The Minister for Children and Education:

Now we have completed the review and all the stakeholder stuff is done you will be getting a briefing from N.A.S.E.N. I will be organising a briefing for the Council of Ministers and I will be organising a briefing for wider States Members, so after that we can have that debate.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay, but no specific date or

The Minister for Children and Education:

I am trying to work out dates with everyone when they are available so we can get that set out.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

Okay. Would we be able to see a draft of the inclusion review as a Scrutiny Panel to advance any scrutiny?

The Minister for Children and Education: I think very, very soon, yes.

Okay. We are running out of time. I do want at the end to say that we did go through a very challenging scrutiny meeting previously and the issues that were raised we have raised with you today because one of our roles in scrutiny is to be a voice for people to come to us. I hope you understand that and I hope we have made our point clear, particularly with regards the Government Plan. As such, I do feel that I should pass this on because it was returned to the Government and you are the Government and we would urge you to we would like to see that that goes back and I hope that they are convinced that that is the right thing to happen, and that young person in particular, if we are going to put children first, is listened to.

The Minister for Children and Education:

I think it is an opportunity to go and speak to ... if they wish to speak to me, to speak to the young person, and I will be going and seeing the head of Haute Vallée to go and speak to him directly again.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, and we would urge that you speak to the governors as well because they are

The Minister for Children and Education:

I went to the meeting and I thought the governors would be there and, unfortunately, the governor did not turn up. I spoke to just one of them but I did go there to go and speak to them, Chair.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay. Unless there is anything else that we want to ask that we have missed out, I think we have done quite well to get through most of this in an hour and a half. Is there anything that you guys want to ask the panel?

Business Finance Partner:

Do you want me to tell you about the £1.2 million?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Yes, that would be good to finish with.

Business Finance Partner:

What was in it with improving educational standards, it was Jersey premium, reading recovery, languages review, schools review programme; that was about £120,000. You asked that specifically, did you not? Jersey Music Service, so it is small amounts for each of those.

Senator T.A. Vallois: Okay, thank you.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So that £120,000 on the schools review programme, is that on the staffing of that?

Group Director, Education:

I would need to drill down, I am afraid.

Senator T.A. Vallois:

We will ask him, right. We will ask him

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We will ask him, right, that would be good. Okay, we have run over, so thank you very much for your time and I will call the hearing to an end.

[11:38]