Transcript - Performance and Estate Management - Director General for Children, Young People, Education and Skills- 24 May 2021

Public Accounts Committee

Estate Management / Performance Management

Witness: Director General, Children, Young People, Education and Skills

Monday, 24th May 2021

Panel:

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier (Chair)

Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Vice-Chair) Mr. A. Lane

Mr. G. Phipps

Dr. H. Miles

Mr. P. van Bodegom

Ms. L. Pamment, Comptroller and Auditor General

Witnesses:

Mr. M. Rogers, Director General, C.Y.P.E.S. Mr. K. Posner, Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.

[14:00]

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier (Chair):

Good afternoon and welcome everyone to the public hearing with the director general of C.Y.P.E.S. I am Deputy Inna Gardiner , chair of the Public Accounts Committee.

Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin (Vice-Chair):

I am Constable Karen Shenton-Stone , vice-chair of the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

Paul van Bodegom, lay member.

Comptroller and Auditor General:

Lynn Pamment, Comptroller and Auditor General

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I am Keith Posner, head of office at C.Y.P.E.S.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Mark Rogers, director general of C.Y.P.E.S.

Dr. H. Miles :

Helen Miles , lay member.

Mr. A. Lane:

Adrian Lane, lay member.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Graeme Phipps , lay member.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Our public hearing today will be on 2 reviews. One is estate management and we will start the discussion on estate management and will continue with the performance. The first question: to what extent were you consulted on the public estate strategy 2021-2035?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I guess to the same extent that other director generals were consulted. We had presentations at E.L.T. (Executive Leadership Team), for example. We have had discussions at our departmental leadership team group and latterly ... initially I ended up on the Corporate Asset Management Board but Keith has since filled that role for me just in terms of relevance for his own responsibility. So I feel sufficiently consulted and engaged in the work. I also feel that going forwards, because it is a dynamic piece of work, that that will continue and the Asset Management Board is probably the best place for those discussions to take place and then they can filter back into the department and the directorates.

What specific input did you provide and how was this taken into account, into the strategy?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Our primary estate, as you know, is obviously out schools. That is a fairly significant area in which we would like account to be taken and, as I am sure you might come to this afternoon, there is some work underway in relation to the town itself and our schools. But we have also been concerned to make sure that the provision of the new headquarters takes into account the very different and multiple ranges of services that we have. We have been, I think, pretty diligent in the department in making sure that what we need is well understood, including what we do not think should be provided within the new headquarters because there are certain services, for example, ones that interact directly with families, where we think we will specialise resources are required away from the busy public centre.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Was it taken into account, so you have services in the headquarters and are there other infrastructures that should be allocated to other services?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think it has been taken into account. A particular example would be some of the therapy services that we have responsibility for where we want to make sure that as the Our Hospital project proceeds that the transitional arrangements for those are themselves appropriate, as well as the ultimate outcome is exactly what is needed to make sure that families have the confidence that they presently have in the facilities that we have got now. So I do think that we are being listened to. We need to be assertive in that conversation because it is a large government with a lot of interests but I will take advantage of the Government's first priority anyway, which is to politely remind, if I ever need to, that we are putting children first and therefore we really need to think carefully not just about them but their families.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is a very good point that we did agree to put children first. Will you please give us other examples how the estate strategy satisfied putting children first?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think first of all the fact that there is a recognition that not everything can go into one place and be standardised. I think that is really important because one could have started from a presumption of everything will be vanilla, so to speak, and it will fit into one place in one way and we can all operate as we need to. If I give a couple of examples really or additional examples to the therapeutic services

at least. We know that we will continue to need specialised accommodation for children in the care to the Minister so our residential estate and the sufficiency planning that we do to make sure we have sufficient places and sufficient variety of places is being taken into account. That is a very important part of our longer-term plan. I think another example I would give is we are presently thinking through exactly how to deliver secure remand and secure care. Greenfields is presently where young people are placed when that is required but we are thinking through about a wider set of options for the development of a new version of Greenfields either on that site or potentially looking at new sites that may have less historical association with them for the youngsters who might still need that kind of support. I think there are a range of areas where we are guessing the flexibility of understanding that we need. I think also there is just a helpful timeline for us. At least one of the properties that we work out of, which is Liberte House, is on a relatively long lease still so it gives us a good chance for some of the services delivered from there, such as C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) but also family contact and one or 2 other things to think through very carefully what is needed for those in the future. I feel there is a responsiveness. Our responsibility is to make sure that we are clearly understood and that we do not start to look as though we are just going: "Well, we are different so we need something different" for the sake of it.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Now we have an estate management strategy, with an overarching view across the States portfolio, how did it help you to make your case about Rouge Bouillon School?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think the first thing to say is no case has been made for anything at the moment, has it? So there has been some feasibility, as you well understand, and there is some further feasibility still being undertaken in relation to education requirements. Although that feasibility has a broader view, making sure we understand about not just what the education estate needs to be but how it interacts with housing, green space, et cetera. What I would say about Rouge is that it is still in the process of all the information that is going to be required being generated in order for options and then ultimately a decision to be taken.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I was asking that, bearing in mind the director general of Justice and Home Affairs told us that he understood that the land adjacent to Rouge Bouillon School was a likely site for the ambulance, fire and rescue. How do your conflicting needs get resolved and by who? Would you be putting a case or you are saying now that you will not put a case?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think you have quoted Mr. Blazeby directly, have you not there? So "likely" is not the same as "decided" and I think what all of the relevant director generals are thinking is that we need to make sure that all of the feasibility work that has both been started and in the education space yet to be completed is taken into account. How will we resolve disagreement? Ultimately we will not because it will be resolved politically, will it not? But the information that comes out of the feasibilities will be presented, I hope objectively, with a set of options and then the political consideration can take place as to which the best future option is likely to be. I think from my perspective what is really important is that we have got some investment available and work underway to understand what is going to be required both in certain parts of St. Helier but more broadly than just the cluster around Rouge, Springfield, et cetera. We need to have that broader view of what the whole of town ultimately requires. One other thing that I would add into that is, and I am sure you know well, that we are also thinking about what the new youth hub in the north of town is ultimately going to look like and what sort of site and space it will require. For me, all of that needs to be thought about in the round before decisions get taken.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

When and how did you know about the bid from the J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs) about using the site for the fire station?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I would not have characterised it as a bid. I am going to have to think exactly when I was first aware of some of the serious detail.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I think politically we feel it is a bid.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have been aware that work has been required to assess the future use of the site for some time, since last year.

The Connétable of St. Martin : I think it was since 2017 actually.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Even longer than that but I think in terms of work kicking off again it certainly seemed to me to be coming up the register last year, certainly had discussions in ministerial briefings, for example. Then I think the greater level of detail emerged earlier this year. I quickly glance at Keith but I would have said around February time.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, that is right, when a feasibility was brought to the Corporate Asset Management Board. It is at that point that that was then discussed with the Corporate Asset Management Board and, as Mark has said earlier, either Mark or myself attends that board and the value of that board I think can be seen in this situation because we have a voice on that board and we also know that in terms of feasibility for the Rouge Bouillon site it needs to take account of other things, not simply a blue light service but also the possibility of the expansion of Rouge Bouillon School. It is at that point that it is discussed and then following that we have now been able to accelerate the work to look at the review of the town basin primary schools.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Everybody knows there is a crying need for the expansion of Rouge Bouillon School and since the site was available from 2017 why review it now; it is 2021? You have had 4 years and you have known that you have this school which really needs to be expanded. When will the review be finalised?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Why has it taken so long? I cannot answer all of that question. I know that some of it is due to bid for resourcing in Government Plans, scheduling of capital work, for example, and just the general prioritisation of quite a large number of things not just in my department but across the Government. In terms of the feasibility, I think we are probably expecting something within 6 and possible 4 to 6 weeks, now.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, that is right. That is when we expect to see the first or completed draft of the report. Obviously we will then need to run that by our Minister and so on.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

With the J.H.A. wanting the site for the ambulance station have you been offered an alternative site?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

No. It sounds like kind of a deal in the back of a bar, does it not? But it is not like this at all. There are discussions on multiple fronts about this, are there not, and the ones that I am involved in are driven by site assessments and broader requirements assessments that are underway. There is not a trading conversation going on between officials. I am really clear about that. There are different timelines along which feasibilities have moved. I absolutely agree with that. You can tell that the education one is up and running and getting going but it started later and will finish later than some of the work led by J.H.A. But there is not an internal negotiation going on. What is happening is we want to assemble all of the information to make sure that when it enters the political space that all of the kind of facts and options are presented together, not in a sequence. So if anything has been to some extent less than helpful, we did not necessarily get the sequencing of all the feasibility right.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Will you please remind, when did you take the position of director general of C.Y.P.E.S.?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Not that this is engraved on my heart or anything like that, I became permanent on 1st September 2018.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

When you became permanent in September 2018, we are talking about 2-and-a-bit years ago, were you aware about the state and the requirement from the Rouge Bouillon School then, that they needed an extension and improved facilities and they do not have outside space and it does not fit really for purpose in 2018?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, so I was ... I mean although I started permanent in September I had been here for 6 months already, late May/early June, so yes I was aware in general terms of the importance of thinking about either re-providing or certainly significantly enhancing the existing Rouge building and site but as I was also aware of other big pieces of work that were either in train or being considered. Yes, I even visited Rouge at one point just to make sure that I could see exactly what it is that was being spoken of. But equally at the same time there are other large capital projects like the completion of Les Quennevais.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I am not talking about a capital project. I am talking about submitting clear requirements to the Jersey Property Holdings back in 2018.

[14:15]

You have a site available, you have a school with the need and if it would be submitted 2½ years ago as a clear requirement from the department would we be in a different place now?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I do not know is the short answer, whether we would be in a different place. What I am clear about is the funding that has become available for doing feasibility work was not available back then but has been available for the last 8, 9 months maybe.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It was available ... we think we approved it in the Government Plan for ...

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think it got delayed because of COVID.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, it was delayed because of COVID but somehow it was less delayed because COVID too. Let us move on. We need to see how it is all developing from now going forward.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Do you see any issues or undisclosed opportunities? Were there any of the land/properties you wish to utilise that are not addressed by the strategy?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think the way I look at the strategy is that you can never put them in cement anyway because things change all of the time. I am not concerned that there is some gaping hole in the strategy. What I am concerned to make sure is we retain a level of flexibility about it so that as new issues arise or just different information becomes available, for example through feasibility studies, that we are able to change it. I think that goes for any plan that you do not want it so fixed that you end up doing the wrong thing after a while, even in the face of new information. No, I am not majorly concerned, along with Ministers and Assistants Ministers, I think we are hugely ambitious to make sure we have got the best estate across all of the services that we have in the department, not just schools. We often talk about schools because I guess they take up most of our property portfolio. But I want to make sure that everything is modern and appropriate and is what families and children want to use. But no, no major holes, I would say.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Have you identified further premises or land requirements that are not identified in the estate strategy?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

There is a discussion under way, as I alluded to earlier, about what we do in relation to young people who need secure, but also what we do in relation to young people who are on the edge of having the most significant level of need that might trigger either taking them into the care of the Minister and, more alarmingly, into the care of the Minister through secure accommodation. Officials with some high level citing by Ministers at the moment because we are just doing some provisional thinking, are just working out what we think the whole of the provision should be across that spectrum of youngsters who have not necessarily triggered the most severe levels and complexity of need but might do if we do not head them off, right the way through to those who are already using the secure estate in the Island. We are just having a good think about that. I think the most significant issue that quite predictably comes out of our discussions is less about service configuration and much more about the history of C.Y.P.E.S. in Jersey and the association they have for families who either themselves or generationally have had to be in these facilities in the past. I am trying to be quite diplomatic about this. But everybody knows what Greenfields used to be called and most people will still call it that if you have just an ordinary conversation with them. So for me and the officials team, as we do some thinking and kind of scenario planning for the Minister and Assistant Ministers, we are thinking about whether the redevelopment of existing sites is in fact the way forwards or whether some consideration should ultimately be given to provisioning elsewhere that does not have any of that historical association with it.

The Connétable of St. Martin : I will pass on to Paul.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

Good afternoon, gentlemen. In your written response, and you have alluded to this in questions earlier, you said that site selection for any property project can be challenging, particularly when suitable sites are at a premium. Formation of the Corporate Asset Management Board, which is attended by yourselves, gives you an important voice. How frequently do you attend the Corporate Asset Management Board?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Keith is the department's representative.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Every 2 months. Looking back we had meetings on 30th April, previous to that 22nd February, so about every 2 months. I have been in attendance I think from the beginning of the year.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

How effective do you think these meetings are?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It is quite new, I would say. But what I have seen so far, it has been very positive. I think you have the right people around the table talking about issues, when issues are flagged, particularly when they have an impact on other departments then departments are able to air their concerns and voices. Obviously if I have any major concerns I will be taking them straight back to my director general. Then we would escalate them politically if we would but this is probably not the right status for an officer at the meeting. But obviously decisions are made by the Council of Ministers in the end and it is simply there to make recommendations. But so far, from the meetings I have been attending to and the items that have been brought forward, I think it is going to be a very positive step forward to stop departments working on their own with what they see as their own parts of the asset portfolio.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

So you have seen sight of good inter-department communication?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Absolutely. Whenever there is going to be a competing nature of a site and the only way to resolve it is to put the best recommendation forward for Ministers to decide.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think it is a crucial bit of governance. We have been on a reasonable journey so far in terms of OneGov and yet to reach the state of perfection, and when we do we should be very scared of that. But it is an opportunity to make sure that things that were unlikely to get joined up start to get joined up. The advantage of it for me really, as much as anything, is to get that holistic view of requirements and to mitigate against and ultimately change the behaviour of the past whereby individual departments might just well go off and do their own thing and not think about the consequences for anybody else. I think it is stormed and I think it is probably forming still. But I think that is reasonable given that it is relatively new and some of the things we are asking of people are unfamiliar. That is not a criticism but it is just that this is a new way of working for the Government and I think that is the importance of that board.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Just a quick follow up, and I absolutely agree. I think to have a joint holistic view on all estate is extremely important. Were you party to the shadow Corporate Asset Management Board that was formed in 2019?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

If that is the group that was looking at the new headquarters then yes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

No, it was Corporate Asset Management Board in shadow form in 2019.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

No, the group that I was involved in was the one that was doing some work, probably still then, around the first stage of thinking around a new office complex.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It was on the office, it was not about the ...?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It was not a wider asset strategy, no. It was really about what we did next after Broad Street basically.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

You also mentioned that you are the accountable officer for the department but you devolve responsibility to service leads and to head teachers. Just curious as to how you monitor spend on maintenance for individual sites and how do you ensure value for money?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I have got 2 very significant colleagues, Keith obviously here, head of office, and Nick Jewell, who is responsible for a range of risk, governance and compliance matters and particularly in this space. The way that that delegation works is we will be clear - Keith and Nick between them, will be clear - about particular initiatives that are underway at school level, will be involved in oversight, whether that is financial oversight, whether that is risk oversight, health and safety oversight, et cetera, and the monitoring therefore will occur at a level down from the leadership team that I chair. Either at the directorship level for education or possibly even at service level below that, depending on scale and significance of the work. I think you also know that we have a business partner model now in the government as well so we have got finance business input into these areas when we need it as well. The monitoring will be a combination of inputs from finance colleagues in Treasury and Exchequer, along with school and/or service leads in the department. A really good example of that would be, and he is not here but Keith might be able to give some detail, some of the work that we have done around D.D.A. (Disability Discrimination Act) compliance and improvement. We would be all over that kind of work because we want to make sure that if it has been prioritised and funded that it is then delivered to time, to budget and in a way that makes the difference it is intended to. We can have our handle on that level of detail when we need to. In a model where schools are not really ... it is not a devolved system for schools, compared to other jurisdictions that are essentially controlled still. But we do clearly want heads to have some degree of autonomy and flexibility around this. We just make sure we have the oversight coming to time, to budget, delivering the outcome.

Mr. P. van Bodegom: Is it frequently audited?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It is worth mentioning that Nick Jewell, who really heads up this area, has bi-monthly meetings with J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings) so they are looking at a programme of work which is undertaken within schools because there is a combination of devolved budgets to schools where they will do some work. There will be other statutory work that J.P.H. will need to carry out. Then there are other examples. Mark was suggesting possibly around D.D.A. compliance where there is some project work as well and all of that gets sequenced. There is a real understanding about whose responsibilities or where the responsibility lies for the type of work to be done. Then schools have the opportunity as well to put business cases forward for other types of work that they require further support from J.P.H. as well. So there is a lot of monitoring that goes on, absolutely. Obviously there is the whole financial oversight of schools where this will be a budget line within that too.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

Final question from me. You presented a programme of disability access, complying with assessments, which you would see all the schools assessed by June 2021; is that on track for completion?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

No because we have had the interruption obviously of the last 14 or 15 months but the priority one premises have been looked at. Regrettably - that is not the correct word - unfortunately rather than regrettably, during COVID so some of the work has been more desktop than on site, as you would imagine. But that has progressed and we clearly need to deliver the subsequent phases. Given that it was not as deep and wide as we might have wished it to be because of the circumstances of the pandemic, we have recently commissioned Liberate to do some much more detailed kind of forensic support for each of those premises so that we have got a much better understanding of the kind of realities of what needs to be done and the extent to which reasonable adjustments can be made in any or all of those premises. I am not critical of what has been done so far. It has been done in the prevailing circumstances but we want to make sure that we have got as robust an approach, hence commissioning some further work. That is kind of building-by-building work, is it not, that Liberate are doing? I am just trying to remember where they were just in the last week or so because they managed to get themselves in the headlines a bit for it, did they not? Like so many things, yes, we are behind schedule but getting back on track and doing some greater due diligence because of the lighter touch that we had to take during the lockdown periods.

Mr. P. van Bodegom:

How soon do you think you will have the response back from Liberate?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Sorry, I do not have a date fixed in my head but they are going around a lot of schools at the moment. It is actively picking up in terms of ... we will need to come back to you about that. But that is being done as well, J.P.H., in terms of any schedule that follows, in terms of work.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Have you set aside the teachers surveys to work that may have to be carried out on that or repairs after maybe condition survey will be complete?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have some budgetary provision for D.D.A.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We do. The condition surveys obviously need to be carried out first so we need to understand exactly the extent to which any further work needs to be done in schools.

[14:30]

That will then inform. But we do have money within our capital budgets for D.D.A. improvements.

Deputy I. Gardiner : How much?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.: I can check.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

You can follow that up. You are coming to the Public Accounts Committee, but I will carry on with a couple more questions. The draft bridging plan was published recently and it is really little there, from my point of view, which the Education Department needs. Why is that?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I guess because it is short term and some of the pieces of work we are doing are medium to long term. In particular, if you think about the Education Reform Programme, it is not really until its third phase that it gets into some of the big policy areas which could well lead to proposals that require some significant reconfiguration of provision around the Island. So it made sense to not try to second-guess that policy development work in the bridging plan.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

A bridging plan we are talking about in 2022-2025. It is another 4 years. It is medium term for me and not short term really.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It is but the Education Reform Programme has only got started this year anyway and the heavy lifting around some big policy pieces does not start yet so we are not in a position to inform the early phase of that bridging plan.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

In this case, have you submitted the requirements and needs for the education portfolio to the Corporate Asset Management Board for the next 4 years?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So we have given some indication of some areas that are likely to have some serious policy attention and therefore maybe some changes will be required in future. We also have to keep the reprovisioning of Highlands on the radar as well, so those are the kind of areas that I have referred to.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We also mentioned Greenfields earlier and that area. Bridging obviously we touched on and you, Victoria College Proprietary School, and the move of Mont â l'Alabbé School Secondary from the Haute Vallée site to the primary site to make it through the Mont â l'Alabbé provision. So they are identified in our capital programme.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

They are. These ones are already identified in the capital project but what I am looking at is the requirements and needs for the education estate portfolio for the next 5 years and we know there are several schools up to capacity and in the next year or 2 or 3, there will continue to be up to capacity. We know the need is there. When do you think you will submit a clear needs requirement to the Corporate Asset Management Board because I cannot see them meeting your requirement if it has not been submitted and just indicated?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So I think that is where the review of primary schools in town is very important to us. We have known that - it sounds like a silly phrase - schools are kind of in the wrong place to match catchments within town. It is just the nature of how schools have grown and how the population has grown. This gives us a real opportunity to reorganise our schools and to have new modern schools that fulfil the needs of the local community. This is the start of that planning process. Coupled with that is the work that is being undertaken with the Education Reform Programme in closer collaboration with schools working closely together. So we may not be simply talking about a replacement of schools. We may be talking about different models of schooling in St. Helier in particular where we know the pressure is. But really trying to get to a position where you are able to walk to your local school and you are not having to walk past another couple of schools to get there because of the way the structure is and the way the places are because, as you are more than aware, there are certain schools in St. Helier that are oversubscribed.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

But the worry is how you can reassure us that the school needs to be where we said children live and walking distance and they require a particular site and size of site. How do we make sure that the suitable sites will not go into housing and other needs, which is important because the requirements were not submitted and somebody else submitted this requirement and feels it is important and the site has gone? We all have ideas about several sites that could be used for schools or for other purposes. Are we on time to submit requirements for schools that says it will still be used for schools and others will go around?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So my faith is in the process that says: "Here is a set of feasibility studies", as I said earlier, moving at different rates but that they should be considered in the round. They should not be taken individually. Therefore, when we look at whether it is housing, as I say, education, young people's provision, green space, et cetera, when there is sufficient information in the political domain to start to properly consider options, that is when decisions should be taken would be my advice as an official. We are making sure at least that we are signalling those areas of education policy that might change in the future but the work has yet to start on them because we are doing other things first. I appreciate that that runs a risk of potentially sites appropriate for future provision not being available for it but you cannot put the cart before the horse, to use a very old-fashioned analogy. I would prefer to work from evidence than intuition.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I agree with the evidence as long as the evidence comes in equal from both sides from my perspective. Yes, I do agree.

Mr. A. Lane:

I think it may build on the discussion we have just been having but when you were asked on Rouge Bouillon about what alternatives were offered to you, you said that there was no trading conversation happening. Where does the accountability sit for the development of plan B and plan C such that you have options should J.H.A. win that site?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I am going to repeat myself, which is probably a good thing because I am going to be consistent in my answer. We are invested in and committed to a process that pulls all of the relevant information together for the different types of need that we have whether it is a combined blue light facility, whether it is new schools, whether it is a new youth centre, et cetera, and that all of that should be put in the round and then go through the regular decision-making process. That is how I would conduct this.

Mr. A. Lane:

Who is doing that and do they currently have alternative options?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So the piece of work that is underway now is identifying what site requirements and therefore ultimately what site options there will need to be for education provision, for example. Then that can be set alongside some existing work that is being done around future housing requirements and that work that is already out there in the public domain about the blue light re-provisioning.

Mr. A. Lane:

So it is a "to be" piece of work?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

That is certainly my expectation and I am really clear that until there is a report on the requirements in relation to the St. Helier school provision, it would be very difficult to give advice about the options that Members can then consider because you will not have all the information in the round. I have said before I do not kind of see it but I am unofficial. I am not elected. I am appointed. My role is to make sure that all of the information that is required for good debate and good decisions to be made about what goes where is available, and that is why the fairly brisk site requirements piece of work is underway in relation to schools.

Mr. A. Lane:

Will you be making that point through the Corporate Asset Management Board to ensure that that is considered before any recommendations are made?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think that point had been made in it, outside it, both formally and informally. Inevitably, there have been discussions, as you can quite imagine, in recent weeks about what still needs to be done in order for the best decisions to be made. I do not think there is any doubt there whether it is J.H.A. colleagues, for example, or I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) colleagues that there is a clear understanding that there is a big piece of the jigsaw that is still being filled in.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is important, yes, that we crossover.

Mr. A. Lane:

That is all. Thank you.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Any more questions from any other members of the committee before we move to performance? No? Thank you for the asset management and we are going to the performance and I will hand over to Helen Miles .

Dr. H. Miles :

Yes, we will move on to the performance management section now. Obviously, we acknowledge the breadth of services that you have under your portfolio which is certainly bigger than it was before. You have told us previously that the target operating model for your department had been slightly delayed due to the pandemic but then it was fully implemented by September 2020. What are the most significant changes?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I am going to keep it to one. The premise for the work that we did to design the target operating model was - sorry to use a bit of jargon - to ensure that the department could be commissioning- minded. What I really mean by that is we wanted to create a business intelligence function that meant that we made future decisions on the basis of evidence. While most people's understanding of the department in the community might be from its front-facing services, its schools or Children and Social Work Services or Child and Adolescent Mental Health, for me, literally the hub of the department is a cluster of - I am going to use some more jargon - emerging centres of excellence that ensure that we have really great business intelligence, really great service and redesign capability. We build a transformation or a change capability as well to put those things into practice and then obviously the classic: "Let us evaluate it and see if it makes the difference it was supposed to." I think I provided some leadership from very early on in the department about this and wanted to persuade my colleagues, the former chief executive and others, that while there is a whole lot of service improvement and development opportunities in C.Y.P.E.S., the very best way to go about that was that systematic commissioning cycle. How are we doing? What is the need? Prioritise it. Are we meeting that need well enough? Yes or no. If "No", redesign the services, then put them in place and then check whether they are doing the business basically. So that for me and I think colleagues - Keith will speak for himself - has been the driver around the time of the operating model.

Dr. H. Miles :

I understand the driver behind that but can you give us some examples of how the public have seen benefits from that redesign?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think the big one that is coming is the C.A.M.H.S. redesign. It has taken longer than we wanted it to. Clearly, the pandemic slowed us down but at least it did not stop us in that respect and we have had some COVID funding anyway although that was mainly to try and ameliorate the effect of the pandemic, if I am honest with you. But we are now starting to move closer and closer to, and there is a consultation just underway again about finally getting us to the point of what the new service model looks like and then delivering that. I would say that even in the absence of the target operating model, because we gratefully inherited some colleagues from the old Health and Social Services Department who knew about commissioning, we were able to take that approach right from the outset. It is going to deliver really well because it is based on a good understanding and a dynamic understanding of need, so C.A.M.H.S. is probably the very best example. But we are also doing some similar work I have alluded to earlier about what provisions are required for those youngsters on the edge of care who can be the most troubled and, as some would say, the most troubling but I would see them as troubled. We have some really good data again around the multiple needs of those young people and what that might look like as we forecast it forward as well to help us design some new responses to develop and integrate a new support service, for example.

Dr. H. Miles :

We know that there is going to be a very high demand for the C.A.M.H.S. service and we know you have just published your children's mental health strategy, et cetera. How are you going to reduce the waiting times?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Twofold. There has been some, as I said, COVID-led investment to deal with what were growing backlogs around referrals and assessment as well as treatment. We need to continue to spend the remainder of that money well to make the necessary inroads to those backlogs but then the new service is entirely predicated on being preventative and early help focussed.

[14:45]

It is much more community orientated than it has been in the past and it is deigned therefore to head off the longer-term pressures rather than simply treat symptoms rather than the causes I guess. If you put those 2 things next to each other, we appear to be able to do a little bit of double running, which is some investment to reduce the pressures now and then there is the new model that comes in to stop those pressures arising in the future.

Dr. H. Miles :

You have also told us that you were going to embark on a rolling programme of functional service reviews with support from people in Corporate Services at the centre. Which services are you reviewing first and how have you prioritised those?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

If you would like to come to a meeting tomorrow, you can see the detail of it and I am not being facile. We have literally just got to the point where we have ensured or mapped, in other words, right across the department each director's intentions around functional and/or service review so what do they want to do? They are then being sized, so to speak, so that we can understand in particular the H.R. (human resources) requirements to support those changes but, equally, they need to be sized around finance as well and some of that support is required. Tomorrow, we will go through, as a team, our initial prioritisation discussion with that so we have a set of proposed reviews, as I say, both service-based and functional-based that we will then look at and decide what can be done for the rest of this year and what needs to be rephased to next year. We do already, as you would expect, have some work in motion. I have mentioned C.A.M.H.S. obviously but we have been doing a business support review exclusive of schools and colleges. That is underway and that we need to complete but that review in itself will support future reviews because what it will do is further develop that informatics capability and that service redesign capability.

Dr. H. Miles :

Are you saying that you are prioritising the business support in order to facilitate services to the people?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

To be strictly honest, we prioritise business support for 2 reasons. It was in the original efficiency plan so it was prioritised by government at that point. We needed to do it. One of our former Ministers argued successfully that schools should not be part of that because of the income reform programme that the Minister was keen to secure support for. So, yes, we continued with it on the basis that it was part of our efficiency challenge but we also needed to do it because it supports the commissioning-minded intention of the department. It develops all of those services and skills that we need to be really good at and having the right services in the future.

Dr. H. Miles :

How are you aligning your department's target operating model along those lines with the corporate target operating model?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

The corporate target operating model essentially just kind of determines the icing and we have been looking at the cake. That is a really unhelpful analogy, is it not? It suggests all kinds of things that are not quite right. The T.O.M. (target operating model) 1, so to speak, did not go deep. It just went across government. We have views. Of course we have. We followed the kind of broad principles that came out with T.O.M. 1 but fundamentally what we were asked to do was, within those tramlines, make sure that you functionally organise yourselves in a way that makes sense, which is the bit about creating the commissioning functioning for me and then organise your services around that in another way that also makes as much sense as possible. For me, T.O.M. 2, while it did move some things around, was first and foremost about creating that set of centres of excellence and that business support function to drive the business of everything else. We ultimately, through the consultation, determined an organisational structure that was a bit different, not least because obviously the department came together from different bits. If I am honest with you, the work that we did was to make sure those bits sat as comfortably as they could with each other. I am absolutely no subscriber to organisational change.  

Dr. H. Miles :

How are you monitoring, reporting and reviewing the performance of your department as a whole? How are you assessing that all the bits are fitting together and the public are better off?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

That is the key bit. Because I am not, as I say, this advocate of reorganisation as I have read too many articles and the odd book that suggests that reorganisation is not necessarily the answer to improving change. The most important bit about all of this is that we finally have ourselves in a position of having a set of performance measures. The configuration of the department was put together with a view to making sure that those services that had most affinity with each other were

grouped together, is what I would say to you, driven by a commissioning function that allows us to do an evidence-based job in the future. Sitting over all of that are set performance measures that tell you the things that matter most, which is the changing and that is the bit that really counts for me. How do we measure success? Not by organisational shape but whether the work that that organisation is doing is making a difference to those outcomes and if it is not, that is when you kind of go: "Okay, so our business intelligence is telling us that the dial is stuck on whatever so we need to go and look at that, especially if it is a priority area." C.A.M.H.S. again may be the best example of changing things.

Dr. H. Miles :

How are you reviewing and monitoring that performance? Do you have scorecards individually that you have balanced across the department fitting into the corporate one? How do you know you are turning your curves?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Two things are coming together. There has been a cross-government drive to get to a new performance framework and that is going to publish I think quarter 1 and quarter 2 performance information in quarter 2, so not too far away from now. That has been the big strategic piece and that obviously sits within the strategic framework for the Government as well as one of those key components so there is that. There are a set of metrics that we have agreed and they sit in our departmental organisation business plan. However, we have not just waited for that. As you can imagine, I came to a department that in some aspect had a very significant improvement journey to go on anyway, particularly the Children's Service. There is a dashboard that we put together very early on from when I came. To be fair, there was one before I came but we reviewed it and changed it a bit but we have had that kind of management information for over 3 years now and that drives an improvement clearly. What it really does is on a day-to-day basis, because it has child-level information in it within the service, ensures social workers have real-time information. On a monthly basis, they produce an updated performance report that is then discussed with the management team in the Children's Service. There are similarities in other directorates but the most developed bottom-up piece has come from the Children's Service of necessity.

Dr. H. Miles : Thank you.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Those are the bits that are meeting in the middle.

Dr. H. Miles :

I am going to hand you over to Graeme now for the next set of questions.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Just for the benefit of the public because you used the word "commissioning" several times, would you please explain what you mean by "commissioning"?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Of course. Yes, it is a civil servant's way of making something sound much more complicated and important than it really is in reality. For me, "commissioning" means this. Understand the need among children and young people across all your communities. So in other places that would be called a joint strategic needs assessment but it just basically means: "Do you understand where children are with their education?", for example. From that, identify where, when you benchmark these things, you need to make improvements and if you end up needing to make lots and lots of improvements, you then prioritise them. The very first stage in a commissioning process for me is do we understand how children are doing across a set of important aspects of their lives? Then is that good enough? Yes or no.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Where we are now, we have the answers on this. Do we fully understand what is really ...

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Not fully but we understand much better than we used to because quite a lot of this information existed, if I am honest with you, but it had not been pulled together and it definitely had not been analysed. We had a very strong education analytics function, so strong that the person who led it went into public health to help with pandemic work but we were weaker in other areas. We have been trying to bring everything up to that same level of understanding and then using that information to determine precisely which aspects of need we most need to address.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

What needs assessments have you done and what type of need assessments?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

For example, Daniela Raffio, who is the lead commissioner for the well-being strategy, did all of that kind of background work the previous year and last year to make sure that the redesign of C.A.M.H.S. is informed by what we understand it needs presently and what it might look like in the future, so that is one area. Another piece of work that we do is, every year - although it has been difficult because of what happened last year with the exams - we look at we look at outcomes across the education spectrum and we benchmark those as best we can, often looking to the U.K. (United Kingdom) of course. We make decisions about whether we are making enough progress in all of the key stages with those young people. I can give you a number of other examples of where that kind of analysis takes place. Then what you do of course is you go: "So the services we have at the moment, are they making the difference that they should make or not?" If not, then you go through that process of redesigning them. That is why we are redesigning C.A.M.H.S. because it has not been doing what it needed to and then when you understand what the model should look like, so a much more community-based modelling C.A.M.H.S., you still have to put it in place.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, it is interesting that you are mentioning C.A.M.H.S. coming several times as a success. I agree there is very good has been put in but you also mentioned that you needed COVID funding for C.A.M.H.S. Why did you use COVID funding and not the money from the Government Plan?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So COVID funding because the pandemic drove up demand. It is as simple as that. More young people started to feel they needed support than had previously been the case because of obviously being in lockdown.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

So the money in the Government Plan was not enough.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

The money in the Government Plan did not anticipate the pandemic is the simple answer to the question.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

But the money in the Government Plan for 2021 anticipated the pandemic.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

No, because the money in 2021 was money determined much earlier.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

That we approved in the middle of the pandemic.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

So we already had money. We had a 4-year investment programme for C.A.M.H.S. What came along was the pandemic that changed the levels of demand. So we still think that when we deal with the short-term issue of increased demand that the investment for the longer term will be broadly right to deliver the service.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, but what I am trying to get to is in 2020, we knew about the pandemic. It started in March.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: Yes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

The budget was approved. The Government Plan was approved in December 2020 so have you redesigned and updated the needs of C.A.M.H.S. in light of the pandemic that it will be mirrored in the Government Plan and not extra funding for COVID?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

The process of the C.A.M.H.S. redesign is not quite complete so it is certainly the view at the moment that the funding this year and in future years will be sufficient for the new model but only because in the shorter term we have had additional pandemic funding.

Deputy I. Gardiner : We will go to Graeme.

Mr. G. Phipps :

I think this is another area of keen interest of yours. How do you prevent restructured departments from your T.O.M. work from falling into silos? Can you give us some examples of some successful initiatives cross-departmental to prevent this and to enhance the One Government direction?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, I can absolutely and the risk is also that departments within themselves can still be siloed, can they not?

Mr. G. Phipps : Correct.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

But your question is about cross-departmental collaboration.

Mr. G. Phipps :

I think both.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Well, let me do the first one because I think we are really on top of the first one. It is all about leadership. I am really clear, and my team is really clear, that we will work in a way that means that all potential decisions have to go through the leadership team of the department before they can be progressed either into policy development or implementation to ensure that all the potential connections that that particular area of work might have are identified and taken account of. So it is a relatively simple but very conscious act on our part to say: "As a director, you are responsible for your functional area but please do not go away and make significant decisions about your functional area without that proper discussion at the leadership level team of the department."

[15:00]

We are starting to replicate that approach down through the department as well so the wider leadership group. So those managers who report to us and report to those who report to us, we have a leadership group also across the department where, essentially we ensure that if work needs to be cross-cutting it is identified that it needs to be cross-cutting and other directorates or services make a relevant contribution to that. We have been working with Team Jersey on that in particular as well to help with some of the kind of cultural stuff around, yes, much more collaborative work.

Mr. G. Phipps :

This has been a subject of discussion under various leadership levels and you are supporting them and encourage them.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: Yes.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Okay, I can see how that can work, that is very helpful.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes. It is really important because we could have just ended up with 4 new silos because we have got 4 directorates.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Yes, I understand. Unless it is addressed at a leadership level at various points and part of your normal discussion

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

That is my view. I think it is addressed by what people say and then do, rather than here is a set of processes and procedures you have got to follow. In terms of cross-departmental work, I think the most important piece of work we are doing at the moment, which has not reached fruition, includes States of Jersey Police, Justice and Home Affairs, Health and Community Services, Probation and ourselves. Some of this is out with the Government as well as in it and we are working together to design a new well, essentially, be a new service, a targeted youth support service to deal with the present challenges that we are seeing from a small group of young people who are troubled and, as I say, sometimes troubling our communities. We have a partnership piece of work underway in that space, which cuts across both government departments and non-government bodies. Then the final bit for me is coming out of the Care Inquiry it was, I think, required that the Government have a Children's Plan; I think it was a requirement. There is a Children's Plan. That plan sits with a partnership already, it sits up at that level, so it is super-Government. There are 3 key areas of activity at any given time that are being driven by that plan and by that partnership. The groups that take the work forward are multi-partner groups and, increasingly, although they are novices at the moment, are using the methodology of turning the curve, to determine what to do to make that area of performance improve significantly. I think at a number of levels there is an increasing amount of improving partnership working, if I am honest with you. But it takes leadership at all levels. It takes political leadership to chair those partnership boards and ensure that it does not just look like the Government bossing everybody else. Within the Government we are making a real effort through some of the Team Jersey work to ensure that both our departments and in between our departments, we are kind of always thinking: "What is the collaborative opportunity here?" Do not remember to do it all the time, I appreciate that

Mr. G. Phipps :

It sounds like you are quite comfortable, both at a department and inter-departmental level, there is a lot more discussion going on about this whole area of siloing and cross-benefits across the board, which is very good to hear.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: I think so, yes.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Okay, I have got another question though because I think it is

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: That is okay.

Mr. G. Phipps :

In the past you have been critical that there has not been enough baseline data in place and this is a subject also you are very keen on, performance indicators, for your department to have meaningful performance indicators. The poor data quality was also picked up in the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) report on management information in education. What specific steps are being taken to collate new baseline data and track appropriate performance indicators to support continuous improvement in all these areas that you seem so keen on, which I support as well?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I am happy to say a little bit but I wonder if I could ask Keith, simply because he has the direct responsibility for the development in this area; you have kind of had the informatics team.

Mr. G. Phipps :

I had better hear your performance indicators.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have made some quite big steps quite rapidly, I think, here and this is perhaps on the basis of the C. and A.G.'s report and follow-up report, which has been very helpful to us in setting the direction. Mark said earlier how previous the head of Statistics went into public health during the pandemic. We then have been able to now bring the almost discrete informatics functions together under the leadership of our head of Informatics. Through the business support review we have identified the areas of this team that we need to build upon, which is very neatly laid out in the C. and A.G. report as well. We should have a full complement of staff in the next couple of months. So essential to this is improving data quality, so we will be recruiting a data quality officer, as well as covering the areas across the business where we have not had the coverage that we would like, for example, within Skills Jersey, which, again, got picked up in the report but also within the Youth Service. We are going to have some more officer time dedicated to C.A.M.H.S. as well. We are now scheduling let me just take one step back, so we have now produced a new dashboard for our D.L.T. (distributed ledger technology), which is being presented, which includes the indicators which we published in our departmental operation business plan. We now have, starting in early June, a monthly performance board, which we will hold with our D.L.T. members and we will call people in accordingly. It is through this board where we will look at the indicators that we have and we will be able to report by exception there and identify where there is real concern. But at the same time we do not think all our indicators are right as well and it is through the growth of the team and the strength of the team in making sure we are covering all of the areas of the department that we can really build upon the indicators that we outlined in the 2021 Business Plan, and make sure in 2022 we have probably a more accurate correct set of indicators that we can go from. We have

done a lot of building to make sure we are not only covering the analytical parts of the service but we are also looking at data quality. We are also looking towards the needs assessment, which we alluded to earlier, and then we have the leadership providers through the performance board. There are a number of other steps which we may come on to in questioning about where we are with our responses to the C. and A.G. report. But that really kind of sets the base for us to then build upon this year.

Mr. G. Phipps :

The performance indicators are not new to the areas of your responsibility, to what extent do you look outside the Island to other areas to see what has already been done so you do not reinvent the wheel and you can build on the indicators that worked in schools, et cetera, in the U.K. and elsewhere? Are you able to reach out

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Absolutely, we have the capacity and I think we have the capability now to be far more focused within this area and look to other jurisdictions and other areas that work, also to look to better practice as well.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have benchmarked as best we can externally, I will just think of a good example. If I took child protection, there are a number of indicators that sit in the departmental school card and then much larger that sit in the kind of improvement school card. When we look at where we think our performance should be, we have broadly looked to the U.K. because that is where there is the best largely comparable data. You will be familiar with the notion of statistical neighbours I guess then; we have identified the best statistical neighbours that we can, often from English datasets, so that we can then, firstly, make a judgment about our present performance and, secondly, set the improvement trajectory if we need to for that performance. You know I have a significant background in terms of working in both English education and English local authority systems. I am seeing some really good work that takes data that we have got here and then says, okay, so where would be the very best place for us to compare to in terms of both good and then outstanding? We are increasingly doing that. I think we are getting on top of both data quality; I think data quality has improved tremendously. Our systems still are a bit clunky and there is a little bit too much of kind of having to assemble datasets from different sources in a way that takes too long. But, having said all of that, I think we have got a good enough school card for the department this year but we know we are going to change it. It is not perfect but it is a good start.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Sure, it is continuous improvement. Okay, that is good.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

A quick question: how do you measure performance at schools, apart from the grades, exams?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, indeed. There are a larger number of kind of measures anyway that just are not exam-based for schools. But I think probably the most important wraparound is the school review process, so the rolling programme of external assessors coming in and spending their time in each of our schools and then producing a kind of rounded report against all of the areas of performance that we would want to understand about each school.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

But will you do it on an ongoing basis that external

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes. We piloted it up to the end of 2019. The pandemic got in the way of then rolling out the new programme. But, again, under the previous Minister for Education the agreement was that we were to do a trial run in every school; I think we have succeeded in all but one. Then review the methodology and if it kind of stood up to the test of having been piloted in schools, then roll it out as a programme. Sorry, then put it in place as a rolling programme henceforth, so we will be resuming school reviews.

Deputy I. Gardiner : When was it introduced?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It was signed off in 2018 and 2019 was used as a review, as a pilot.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It was introduced in 2019 as a pilot?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: Yes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Another thing: are there benchmarks at your current business plan?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, not with every indicator but with a good number of them there are benchmarks.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay. Are you going to approve your benchmarks to your business plan for the next year?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.: For next year?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Benchmarks included in your business plan for the next year, the number of the benchmarks

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think that would be a good position for us to get to, absolutely.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: Yes.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay, thank you. Yes, pass it to

Mr. G. Phipps :

I will pass it over to Helen.

Dr. H. Miles :

Okay. I have some more questions about C.A.M.H.S. but I think you have probably covered that about performance management and the background of commissioning before. I am just conscious of time as well. I am just going to move on to complaints and how are complaints for your department handled? Are they handled by Customer and Local Services like other departments or is something different done with yours?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It is both, is it not, Keith? Yes, but we have tailored systems for Children's Social Work Services and a kind of default system really for schools, although we have pulled the data through, yes.

Dr. H. Miles :

Okay. How do you incorporate the feedback then in the complaints from the public into improving your services?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

This is certainly an area that we are developing and I would say that. The management of complaints within Children's Service is quite established. It is regularly fed back through quality officers, they are assessed every day and there is a huge amount of learning that comes from that. They have a dedicated person that looks at complaints. We are learning from that across the department, through the C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) system, C.F.M.S. (Customer Feedback Management System), customer feedback

Dr. H. Miles : Monitoring.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Thank you very much. We are able to get their data from other parts of the department. Feedback from, say, the Youth Service or from Skills or from the department part of Education. We have established a group where we have heads of service that discuss the complaints, starting to discuss the learning outcomes from them. We have also just started a pilot within schools, so we can understand the nature of feedback there. It is quite tricky, I would be quite happy to see other jurisdictions, whether they have done this, to collect feedback from a number of different schools because it has to be consistent. We have been working with a handful of schools running a pilot this term and we are hoping to roll out a system from September where we can then be recording across all schools the level and types of complaints, which will then feed into the dashboard that we have mentioned a number of times. This really is a work in progress for us but we certainly have a structure in place, we have a focus for it. We are starting to begin to learn about themes that are coming through across the department but particularly though within an area like Children's Service where they are actively looking at their feedback regularly and how, therefore, they change their practice and want to learn from that and take that forward to the rest of the department.

Dr. H. Miles :

Are you picking up kind of very different types of complaints then, so through your Children's Service, C.A.M.H.S. which was sort of the social caring side of things, as opposed to the school sort of education type of things? How do you handle those differently?

[15:15]

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Schools is the bit that is not mature because we are only running the pilot now, so we will get the feedback to see what type. It will be interesting because they will be different, I would imagine.

Dr. H. Miles :

If a parent wants to complain about a primary school, for example, what do they do?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

There certainly is not an absence of a process within each school. Each school will have its own process. This is more about how you then take a local process and feed it into a wider department process and making sure that we are receiving the right type of information, therefore, to collate and to take a view on. That is what the pilot is looking at, what level of complaint or feedback will we be receiving from the school, the frequency and the systems for doing that because we do not want to burden schools with that? Also that will tie in with the wider government customer feedback policy as well, so in terms of categories we can monitor. But just to go back to your early point around like C.A.M.H.S. or Children's Service, we are starting to see themes around consistency of information, for example, response times. These are kind of coming out from the complaints that we are managing. This feedback goes to the heads of service, to the directors of those services, to then influence where they need to target their work.

Dr. H. Miles :

Because I guess what we are trying to get at is making sure that the feedback from the public is getting to the right person at the right time, so that proper action can be taken. It just sounds at the moment it is like a bit disjointed across the department.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think we are doing it together. Through Customer and Local Services kind of starting at the year 2 level, we will get quarterly reports broken down by department and

Dr. H. Miles :

What are the main ones from your department?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: In terms of

Dr. H. Miles :

In terms of the nature of the complaints.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have a small number of complaints come through C.A.M.H.S., a bigger number of complaints come through the Children's Service and then, as Keith has said, there are a number of complaints in schools but they are not necessarily all pulled through because they might be dealt with at school level.

Dr. H. Miles :

You might have issues in a school that you would never get to know at a departmental level.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

But that is exactly what the pilot is going to activate.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, that is what we need to set out.

Dr. H. Miles :

Is that going to affect the private schools as well or just the State schools?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It will be just government schools.

Dr. H. Miles :

Just government schools.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes. What we are trying to do is stick to the kind of principles of how a complaint should be escalated clearly and the school bit is at this, I hear. We do not want the complaint to start with an official in Broad Street. We want the complaint to start with a parent or a carer feeling that they can be confident enough to raise it with the class teacher or the key stage lead or the head of department or whatever. That is the reason we are having a pilot because, without being overly crass, we do not need to know about a lost P.E. (physical education) kit and a former teacher myself, the bane of my life is lost P.E. kit, usually mine. But in all seriousness what we do want to happen is for that process of escalation to start in the school. Then if it reaches a point of not being able to be resolved, clearly then that is when the Education Department at the centre will have a role. We are just trying to kind of tease that one out because the corporate complaints policy is a good generic policy but it does not perfectly fit the education system, just as you have also seen that while we have got good children's data we have a tailored approach in the Children's Service as well. Because, effectively, there is a way of escalating complaints there. It is not statutory but it is akin to a statutory approach if you need to go into an independent review of the case.

Dr. H. Miles :

Okay, thank you. I am going to hand you over to Adrian now.

Mr. A. Lane:

Thanks. I would like to turn to the recommendations tracker; I think you will be familiar with the corporate level C. and A.G. action tracker. Good. Can you tell us now how many outstanding recommendations there are for your department?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes. Since we have had the updated report, which was presented to us at the back end of last year, I think, we are working on the 10 recommendations which fall under responsibility of Mark and they are all still outstanding at the moment. But we are making significant progress, I think, towards achieving what we want to this year. For when I earlier described the formation of the informatics team and the creation of the dashboard, the introduction of a data quality officer but the conversation we just had around school complaints, all of these sit within the recommendations for the report. I expect, as we move into the second half of this year, we should be able to start closing some of these off.

Mr. A. Lane:

Do you have an expectation for how many you will have closed by the end of the year?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Just looking at the action plan, we are looking to close everything off by the end of the year. I think there is always a question around the maturity of this with the recommendations, particularly around information being used for decision-making with middle management and below. I think we will have the systems there. There will be the expectation and, hopefully, we are building the culture around how we do business for that to continue but we will have the systems in place by the end of the year; that is fully our expectation.

Mr. A. Lane:

Okay. What blockers have you found or do you anticipate?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think we have had them, if I am being honest. I think COVID was a significant blocker in this area, just in terms of the pull on the data team. But rather than blockers it has more been about the enablement to have a central informatics function with the visibility and the importance that data is held in with the department now; that is really accelerating our progress in this area.

Mr. A. Lane:

Thinking about recommendations that may not have your name against them but are on other departments, how do you keep track of how they may impact on your service to Islanders?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

The opportunity to do that happens at C. and A.G. tracker meetings that we have, which is they are chaired by members of the Treasury but also have representatives from all departments and it is at that point that we have that opportunity. They are also more at a fundamental kind of practical level, our head of informatics will sit on data groups centrally in government and they will be absolutely the proof in the pudding on how progress is happening and will happen at that level too.

Mr. A. Lane:

Just characterise for us maybe an example of a conversation at those T. and E. (Treasury and Exchequer) chaired meetings about the tracker, which have helped you to understand something from elsewhere.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.: Particularly with relevance to this

Mr. A. Lane:

Yes, if you have got a relevant example that would be great, I am just trying to understand what those meetings look like, how they

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Those meetings happen, I think, quarterly. We are only into the end of the first, we have got our second one coming up, so we have not had them yet because we are moving now into the delivery of the set of recommendations from the updated report but that is what will happen; it will happen at that meeting.

Mr. A. Lane:

Okay, so it will happen, rather than it has happened.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.: Yes, so that is fair enough, yes.

Mr. A. Lane:

Okay, thank you. Just reflecting on some of the themes that you have drawn out then around the development of the M.I. (management information) and the use of that intelligence to try and drive it. If you went back to the C. and A.G.'s report on management information and education, she was critical of the progress that you have made in that area, in particular she talked about your need to develop reports and monitor performance indicators and targets and function team levels within C.Y.P.E.S. You talked about some stuff you are doing; what is your actual plan for the closure of that item?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think 3 things are coming together, are they not? We have finally got the performance measures in all of the departmental business plans. There is now a cross-government approach, which helps us close and part close a recommendation. I think we have now sufficiently developed the informatics function that we can service what we need to do. I think, as I said earlier, in some areas of the business we are more highly evolved than others anyway and it is just a case of kind of building on that good practice, particularly I would say from the Children's Service. My managing of this, it has been a jigsaw, we did not have all the flipping pieces and nobody gave us the picture initially. We have now got the picture, I think we have found all the pieces and we are putting them together. I think this year we will see a significant step forward. I think the other bit around this is that some of this is meant to be supported from S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population). S.P.P.P. have significantly redirected their resources into the pandemic, so some of this has taken a bit longer than it might otherwise have done. But I would feel confident if you or any of the other Scrutiny pools that we go to wanted to really get into some detail about what does quarter 2 look like around our performance. I feel confident at giving good accounts, albeit unqualified but I would still like to refine the dataset.

Mr. A. Lane: Okay, thank you.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I know now what I did not know in 2018. But in this particular context there are certain things I just could not have put my finger on without asking somebody to go and spend several days finding it and assembling it and telling me it, whereas now if you wanted to ask me - do not ask me today exactly because I did not check today - how many looked-after children we had and how many of them were in the Island and how many of them were in off-Island places; I can do that. In 2018 that would have taken quite a while.

Mr. A. Lane:

Okay, good. I am going to pass it back to the chair.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes. It was mentioned there is no process the similar processes in different schools, so the different schools have a different governance structure, so it is not consistency between schools. How can you expect the consistency coming back to you with their complaints and other reporting if there is no consistency in the governance processes?

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

What I meant by the lack of consistency is understanding more complaints to escalate, is what I meant by that. It comes back to Mark's point around the loss of P.E. kit. When we roll things out to schools we have a lot of them and we need to be very consistent and very clear in what we are asking them to do, particularly when they are going to be reporting on something like feedback, which should be in the public domain. We have to be very clear what we mean by the type of complaint if we are talking about a complaint that we would want to receive. That is the work we have been doing through the pilot, so we understand the correct level; that is what I meant by that.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay. Another point, did you have a number for the budget for the

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Sorry, I did not have it but I think it is £500,000.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay, thank you. Another point, if I understand correctly, the Education Reform Programme does not rely on the demographics, is it correct? The educational reform, it is about education and not necessarily about the demographics.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, I think I understand what you mean, so the element

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Basically how many people, how many age, where they live, it is about the education.

Head of Office, C.Y.P.E.S.:

It is about transforming the nature of the delivery of education in Jersey. There will be some policy streams that will look at how, potentially, schools could work more closely together that could be impacted by demographics. But, no, this is around developing teacher excellence, it is around the funding formula, it is around including practice in schools, it is around developing schemes around low prior retainment, a bunch of different things, which is around improving outcomes for children.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Absolutely agree. But in this case if we know that we have X thousand people living within St. Helier , it means that we need X spaces within St. Helier for their education. It is reflective maybe of the state of the estate but it does not reflect how many spaces we need. I am not sure of the connection but it is claiming where the demographics are going. In the absence of the Minister for Children and Education, what extra responsibility have you personally taken on?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: None, that it is a political space.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Okay.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

The Chief Minister is Minister for Children and Education presently but he has pretty much devolved day-to-day of that to Deputy Wickenden and then Deputy Pointon has specific responsibilities around mental health. What we do as a team is we continue to have all of the regular briefing sessions that we had previously. We have an education briefing weekly, we have a Children's Service briefing weekly, I have a one-to-one principally with Deputy Wickenden and other officials will have their one-to-ones with relevant Ministers as well. In terms of kind of the interface between officials and politicians, clearly there have been some changes but they are kind of day-to-day the way things are run and have not been affected.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

No, I mean if there is any extra delegation, extra will have been given to yourself and your team.

[15:30]

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I see. This is kind of a how much money can you spend now that you could not spend previously question. All right. Deputy Wickenden, in consultation both with our Treasury and Exchequer business partner and myself, was keen to establish a level of financial delegation because previously I did not have any. Almost every decision, particularly about contracts, was made by a Minister, whether it was £1 or £501,000. Based on the experience that Deputy Wickenden had with his M.D. (Ministerial Decision) responsibilities and I will not deny it, I think a keenness just to make things move more quickly around actioning financial decisions, an M.D. was made in order to give me a level of delegation that I had not previously had. But there are similar, if not identical levels of delegation. that other D.G.s (director generals) hold as well, so I do not feel it is like anything out of the ordinary. I think what is probably out of the ordinary is that I did not really have any delegated spending authority previously

Deputy I. Gardiner :

What is it now, your delegated spending authority?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: What is it now?

Deputy I. Gardiner : Yes.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I can spend up to £500,000 after which a ministerial approval is required for that expenditure.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you. The last is anything that we did not ask during the public hearing and you would like to let known to the public before we

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Chair, I have been to too many Scrutiny meetings to propose questions that you might want to ask me. I think the one observation I would make is I did wonder whether you would seek to understand what we thought the priorities might be at the moment and for the next 12 months but I was not going to because I am just enough to say I think you should have asked us these other things.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

No, we will send you in the written questions but I am happy for you to state your priorities. You have one more question, okay, yes. Yes, but if you already mentioned it because I try to be with the time and if you are happy to stay with us an extra 5 or 10 minutes definitely will continue. What are your top 5 priorities for the next 2 years?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have mostly covered this. We need to keep going with the Education Reform Programme; that is a time-limited, budget-limited programme, so that is very important. We need to deliver the changes to the model of Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. We need to continue to build further the early help offer that we can give to families to head them off from ending up in statutory services. We need to think really seriously about what the skills offer looks like as the economy begins to move forward from COVID and we understand what we need to provide, particularly by way of F.E. (Further Education) and H.E. (Higher Education) in and off the Island. But my number one priority, the priority because those things are all important, but the priority for me, if I am being a pedant because you can only have one priority, is that it is essential, it seems to me, that Government, maybe presumptuous, the Assembly and the civil service remembers that, putting children first is the most important thing that you can do.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Yes, Adrian, please.

Mr. A. Lane:

Two things: first, can you just give us an update on where you are departmentally with the delivery of Efficiencies Committee as part of a Government Plan?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes. It has been a challenge and a half for us. But each director now has accepted the amount of efficiency that he or she needs to deliver in the year and years ahead. In the one bit of the department, which I am caretaking because one of my directors is, unfortunately, on long-term sick leave, we have a small amount of work to kind of complete the delivery plan that we have got for the saving there, so that is the Skills bit of the department. Just need to do a little bit more work to be clear exactly where it is going to make all of its efficiency savings. But at this stage, and particularly if my finance business partner was here, we would say that we have got plans across the department to make those efficiencies but they need a little bit more development in the skills area.

Mr. A. Lane:

Thank you. The second is just reflecting on some of the answers you have given and talking about, I guess, the central management of the department that is the front line services. Have you seen anything in terms of the recent colleague engagement survey results which would indicate any difference in feeling between those areas?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

I think the Be Heard survey, in particular the main reference point here, has very clearly said that we, as senior leaders, need to do more about well-being because of, I guess, underlying well-being needs and the significant demands that the pandemic has placed on pretty much everybody in the department. That would be the biggest message I think, is looking to the leadership to come up with solutions that will help people get work/life balance, if you like, kind of back into balance; that would be a really big message, I think, for our department. There are cross-government messages that I think also we need to make sure we play our part in picking up and doing something about. I think in that space, for example, making sure that the kind of values of the organisation are driven through our performance management system, through our My Conversation My Goals appraisal approach.

Mr. A. Lane:

Just in respect of that well-being point that you raise specific to C.Y.P.E.S. or a part of C.Y.P.E.S., what are you doing about it?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

We have started a process of asking colleagues what they think we should be doing about it. I think one of the things I have learned again, relearned therefore, from Be Heard, is that you need to involve your staff teams in what the solutions are and not just think you know the answers to them. We have had some initial sessions just asking people to start to think about what it is that would make the difference.

Mr. A. Lane: Okay, thank you.

Mr. G. Phipps :

I have just got another. Given your role in Education and your keen interest in things like key performance indicators, and we see this across the board, have you considered the level of business competency across the board throughout Government and considered any kind of training, business competency training that could be initiated and support all of the people across Government levels to increase the level of business competency, basic decision-making tools like Kepner-Tregoe, et cetera, ways of enabling everyone to do a better job with those kind of skills? Have you considered that or anything underway?

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

There are a set of programmes that exist in the academy, some of which are about developing leadership and management capabilities. For me the principal tool though is the appraisal tool, My Conversation My Goals. We should be making sure that all those who we line-manage have a clear appreciation of and are invited obviously to give their own view about their development requirements. I think the biggest business competency initiative we have got is the culture change one through Team Jersey because the competency that we are really looking for is collaboration across government, so moving from silos into teams; that is the biggest business competency we need.

Mr. G. Phipps :

I was thinking more on the lines of actual fundamental business skills but that is fine

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Yes, Keith will tell you how good I am not at Excel, for example, but I understand your point entirely.

Mr. G. Phipps :

No, I am not talking about I.T. (information technology). There is a broader fundamental and if not through your department, then where is this competency, another question because you are in Education? I will leave it at that.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.:

Okay, so just answering your question generally, we are not doing what I think you have suggested but we are spending a lot of time trying to get people in the right place around how to lead, how we want government to work more generally, rather than the detail of

Mr. G. Phipps :

Yes, it is a little bit different.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: It absolutely is different.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Are there any other questions from other members? No. Thank you very much, I thank you for your answers.

Director General, C.Y.P.E.S.: You are very welcome.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

The public hearing is closed. Thank you.

[15:39]