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Public Accounts Committee Performance Management Follow-Up Review Witness: Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills
Friday, 28th July 2023
Panel:
Deputy L.V. Feltham of St. Helier Central (Chair) Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North (Vice Chair) Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South
Mr. G. Phipps , Lay Member
Mr. M. Woodhams , Lay Member
Ms. L. Pamment, Comptroller and Auditor General
Witness:
Mr. R. Sainsbury, Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills
[13:30]
Deputy L.V. Feltham of St. Helier Central (Chair):
Welcome to this public hearing of the Public Accounts Committee. Today is Friday, 28th July 2023, and we are holding a public hearing with the Chief Officer of the Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills as part of our review of performance management. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. The recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. All electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched to silent. For the purposes of the recording and the transcript, I would be grateful if everyone who speaks could ensure that you state your name and role and speak clearly throughout. We will start with introductions. We will start with the Committee. I am Deputy Lyndsay Feltham and I am Chair of the Public Accounts Committee.
Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South :
Deputy Tom Coles , St. Helier South , panel member.
Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North :
I am Deputy Max Andrews , Vice Chair of the Public Accounts Committee.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
I am Matthew Woodhams , a lay member of the Committee.
Mr. G. Phipps :
I am Graeme Phipps , a lay member as well.
Comptroller and Auditor General:
I am Lynn Pamment, the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I am Rob Sainsbury. I am the Chief Officer for the Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. We have about an hour for this hearing so we will try and get through as many questions as possible and we would appreciate some succinct answers if possible as well. I will hand over to Deputy Andrews .
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Firstly, thank you for joining us today, Rob. I would like to begin by asking you about what your priorities are for the department across 2023.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Of course. So I have 6 key areas of focus for me. Performance - most of our services are statutory so they are benchmarked - risk and quality assurance, health and safety tracking, monitoring our tracking for scrutiny, P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) and the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) recommendations, financial management, and workforce oversight. We are a big provision department so workforce is key. Of course, over-pinning all of that is the ministerial priority and that is around inclusion, education reform, care sufficiency and reform, action on the skills agenda, and child and adolescent mental health well-being strategy and working in partnership again with workforce overall.
So that is obviously quite a big area.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy M.B. Andrews : Quite expansive.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
So how many people do you have reporting into you?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I have 6. I have 2 group directors, I have 2 associate directors, and I have the chief librarian and a head of skills department.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Okay. Thank you very much for informing us on the panel about the number of people who report into you, but what about you reporting into the Chief Executive? How does that work?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I have monthly formal one to ones. I have quarterly objective oversight and I probably have interface 3 to 4 times a week with the Chief Exec, the former Chief Exec.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
So in relation to your personal objectives, if you like, could you maybe just tell us a bit about what those personal objectives are?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, of course. I have been given a really clear mandate in terms of the expectation for the department. Workforce is a critical part of it and developing the workforce to meet the ministerial plan usually dominates a big part of the objective conversation. We are a department full of risk so we often will have a conversation in relation to the risks that are presented, whether it is estate or whether it is care-facing risk or education-facing risk that often will pull into the department. We
often have then strategic conversations around the skills agenda, further and higher education. It is quite a broad spectrum of areas that we would cover ordinarily.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
For instance, if you are to encounter a problem within the department, how do you ensure you best address that issue and also provide a reporting mechanism to then monitor that risk as well across time?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So that is something that we have had to really work on in the department. So getting formality around quality assurance and risk oversight has been quite a key objective for me. We have within each part of C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) there will be a Senior Leadership Team focus on the risk item. I have a risk group and then I have a quality assurance oversight group that meets every 6 weeks. That is the S.L.T. (Senior Leadership Team) and we feed that into the ministerial oversight. We meet with the Minister monthly and we have a rolling cycle around risk, finance, programme, workforce and quality assurance.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Obviously, you have just touched on about the Minister and the Minister's priorities, so how does the relationship work between ensuring that the Minister's priorities are delivered and also then reporting back to the Chief Executive?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So I meet with my Minister every week and we have a weekly ministerial meeting. We have a ministerial plan and we have a tracker with the plan. My objectives are very much set within the context of the Minister's plan, so as part of my oversight for my performance and my objectives and my monitoring by the Chief Exec, they are in line with the tracker for the Minister so that there is no difference between both methods of tracking.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
So when we are looking at, say, the tracker or the ministerial objectives, do you think all of the objectives are deliverable or do you think there has maybe been some problems that have been encountered since those objectives have been set?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There will definitely be variances. We have encountered that thus far. So some of those challenges will be around ability to get contractors, for example, around some of our ambition within the estate. There are other areas where workforce recruitment has been a bit slower than we would have hoped,
so that will be reflected in the tracker and that will be part of my update to the C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer) as well.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Okay. Thank you very much, Rob.
Mr. G. Phipps :
I am just going to follow up just a little bit further on this question of objective setting and follow-up, and these are general questions we are asking everyone. To what extent do items discussed in your quarterly appraisal meetings relate back to the beginning of the year when you have your objective setting? What is the link between the appraisal discussions and that initial objective setting?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There is a golden thread. We have a fixed monthly template that I have as part of my one to one agenda with the Chief Exec. So within all of my objectives I will provide a monthly update in terms of where we are around finance, workforce, ministerial plan. So that features in our monthly conversation. That is also then monitored through my S.L.T. and I have a formal item to make sure that we are on track in relation to the objectives that have been set to me and then I set to my team.
Mr. G. Phipps :
So there would not really be much change in the kind of conversations you have at the beginning of the year and then the quarterly appraisals through this mechanism? Is that a fair statement or ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There would be some changes. So we often have exceptions. We will have emerging risks. We might have emerging capacity pressures. We might have differing estate need that needs to be addressed, and that will certainly feature within the conversation with the C.E.O. and obviously through my S.L.T. as well. So we are quite a ... we are a provision-facing service so we often will have space where I am able to apprise the C.E.O. of developing items, matters, risks. There is the freedom to do that. But in terms of my objectives, I am required to provide update in relation to all of the key expectations relating to the performance of the department.
Mr. G. Phipps :
Okay, thank you. I will turn it over to Matt for a few more follow-up questions.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
You have a very interesting role in that you have a beast of a department. It is enormous and it has been created from the amalgam of obviously trying to get a united approach to looking at children, young people, education and skills together and not being so siloed. When you are looking at the young person side and the children side, are the risks you are facing very different to those that are sitting in education and skills?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
They are different in terms of the potential outcome for the children. So failings within the care and the child and adolescent mental health part of the service can be quite catastrophic and can be incredibly harmful. Failings within the education ...
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Sorry, just to stop you a second, I mean the risk that you face in not being able to deliver the services.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Oh, sorry.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So the things that could stop you.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes. So there are different pressures. Workforce pressure has consistency across both parts. The position of improvement required is different across the 2 areas. More focus is needed in children's services. Child and adolescent mental health is improving. Education feels more stable but there are pressures within the education system and the ...
Mr. M. Woodhams :
What sort of pressures are they?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So it is mostly relating to our complexity within the classroom. Teaching staff are citing that they are having to deal with much more pressures than they have previously. Our inclusion review that was undertaken quite a few years back now has identified there is a lot of need that needs to be addressed, and in the education reform programme and the inclusion charter our plan is that we support schools with additional teaching assistants, speech and language therapists, educational psychologists, to help with that need. There is a growing new developmental need particularly. So those pressures are quite acute for our teachers and staff; you will hear that talked about in terms of classroom pressure.
So in terms of complexity, the way that you are dealing with it is by provision of staff, but the provision of staff itself is one of the greatest risks you face as well. So the solution to one risk is to increase another?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Well, there are different pressures within children's services than education. I have a bigger proportion of agency staff in children's services compared to education. With education, the staff requirements are in relation to growth and we are now meeting need that previously had not been provided within the service. It is new. Inclusion service and fund is new for the department.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So you have some linked risks; you have some areas that are different. How are you managing that risk to close it off as a process?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So we use the electronic risk management process. We also use Datex, which is a clinical process or reporting system for C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service). I have a risk group, so all of the risks are captured within that and within the individual S.L.T.s, and then that comes through to my risk oversight group within the S.L.T.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Do you have assessments in place, starting off with your inherent risk, the effectiveness of what you are doing ...
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
... and the remedial work?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We monitor mitigating requirements. We look at risks and issues. We look at how the risk is escalating, what we do to de-escalate the risk. We have business continuity plans around those risks. There are a lot of risks within a big department like mine.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
You are happy that you have the right level of information that you need to be able to assess those and judge on strategy and how to alter it?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
In terms of the assessment of risk, yes. I have a good team. I have had additional investment into that team, so we are able to capture that risk. That then leaves you with a very big list of things that you need to do and the department does have a big list of things. We have a very big estate and we have 2,700 staff nearly, so it is a big portfolio.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
How do you prioritise those?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So we have clear categorisation in terms of risk scoring. We will have our top 3 areas where we have many risks, but in essence we have some risks which are much, much more pressing. Care sufficiency and capacity is a real significant risk for us.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
I like 3; 3 is an easy number to remember, because if you get to 4 you have forgotten what the first one is.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: No problem.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So what are your top 3 then?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Care capacity is a really big risk for us. We have inherited a very full system of care. So we have not had sufficient residential placements. That has led to registered activity in an unregulated setting last year, which is a problem for the department, in contravention to the care regulation law.
Mr. M. Woodhams : Is that continuing?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
No. We have addressed that. We also need foster carers. Our foster care system is quite full, so we are trying to recruit in that space. We have capacity pressures within that space, so the more
we are improving our child protection and care, the more potential there is for children to come into care. We have seen the care system become quite full in Jersey. There has not been adequate planning would be my assessment for the capacity there, so we have had to very quickly address that. The second risk is around safeguarding assurance. So not all of our services have been regulated under the Regulation of Care Law. They are now, which is excellent for our department because it means we have independent inspection. It means that we have fresh eyes that will come in and look at our service and tell us where we require improvements. That is a really big improvement for us and we are looking forward to our inspections. Then the third is around our buildings. We have massive buildings and we have differing risks ranging from trees, lots of trees in the school estate, through to fencing, through to fire risk, through to general safety risks within the residential care space as well.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Is that actually presenting particular physical risk in all of those estates?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Physical risk and also environmental risk. So there is a requirement for some estate issues to be addressed, but then there is also a requirement for different ways of working with the workforce. So some workforce changes will mean additional duties, additional walks of the floor, additional checks. They are a mixture of both environmental and people.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So you have obviously a very large area of responsibility. The last one, the estate, what is your interaction with other parts of the States to make sure that your solutions to those problems do not become siloed just to your team?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We have a good link with I. and E. (Infrastructure and Environment) and J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings). They have a head of expenditure around those estate needs. I also within C.Y.P.E.S. have a head of expenditure for remedial works that might be required. Capacity is the main issue in relation to that, not necessarily the interface between the department but getting sufficiency within the contractor space for works to be completed is probably the biggest challenge that we face, in all honesty. That is certainly my ...
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Is that the lack of builders normally and others?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
It is the builders, yes, even painting and decorating. [13:45]
So my experience of the work we had to do in Greenfields was quite extensive and we were under real pressure to be able to find local contractors. We did but it was very difficult to get some of the issues addressed. Of course, when you are in a formal improvement notice by your inspector you must have quick action. So that is something that I think we need to create more capacity and resilience around.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
I want to do a little bit of time travelling now. So we have skipped to 31st December and we are having a chat and I have said: "How has your year gone?" You say to me: "My year has been absolutely fabulous." Why has your year been fantastic? What did you achieve? What did you do that made your year the best year?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I feel like I am on that journey. We are at the midyear point. We have opened 2 new residential facilities. I would like by the end of the year to have a clear plan for a therapeutic children's home here in Jersey. We have potential site identification in terms of properties. I would like to get a real plan for completion for that. It would make a big difference. It would be our first here in Jersey. It would really impact on our prevention of children needing to go off-Island. I would like to continue the growth in the workforce. I am very pleased with our progress in recruiting. It was very difficult last year and we are making real progress in that area, so I would like to continue that.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Is that to deal with the reliance on contractors?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, particularly in the children's services space. In January 45 per cent, only 45 per cent, of the children's social care workforce or social workers were permanent staff. We are up to 65 per cent now. We have never been at that level before. We are recruiting and we are making progress in that space.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Okay. We now have an alternate 31st December. I say: "How was your year?" and you go: "Oh, I was so optimistic in July. It was awful. Everything has gone wrong." What are the risks that could cause you to go wrong and you not to achieve what you needed?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Planning. The delays around planning permission could be ...
Mr. M. Woodhams :
I was going to say whose planning, but okay, planning permission.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
No, not mine, the delays around planning permission. Obviously, if there is a 25-week wait that could have an impact on our ability to progress the therapeutic children's home. We identified the need for a therapeutic home years ago and we have finally got the funding and we have the plan to do it. I really want to progress it. So planning could be a problem. Again, sufficiency potentially for some of the contracted works that would be needed could be a problem, and if we are not sustaining that workforce improvement that we have seen in terms of recruitment I would be disappointed then.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
You think you have enough in place, though, for that not to happen?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I feel we have momentum in that space. Certainly, the workforce, looking at the recruitment and what workforce feedback is telling us, I feel that we are starting to have the good work we are doing around improving helping us to attract people. That is what happened in C.A.M.H.S. They only have 10 vacancies in C.A.M.H.S. now so they have been through that journey and it feels we are on that trajectory with social care as well, and in education.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Okay. Thank you very much.
Mr. G. Phipps :
Just one follow-up question if I may pertaining to key performance indicators and tracking and graphing and all that. To what extent are you using key performance indicators and measurement things throughout your departments and how effective are they in matching what you are trying to accomplish? What areas would you like to see improvement in those areas?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So I am helped by that. Most of my services are benchmarked in terms of their statutory performance. So the care-facing services we monitor against local authority performance for similar population groups and we make some variances for that. Within education we have obviously our attainment and our education outcomes, G.C.S.E.s (general certificate of secondary education), for example. So we monitor our performance. Our performance has improved in 2022 and in 2023 at the moment, to the midyear performance, there are 4 areas that are green, there are 2 areas that are amber, there are 4 areas that are red. I would anticipate that the 4 indicators that are red will change to 2 of those indicators becoming green by the end of the year. That would mean by the end of the year we sustain our K.P.I.s (key performance indicators) to the level of 2022. That is a key objective for me. I think that is achievable, particularly if we continue to grow in our workforce ability. There are some indicators I do not think we will recover.
Mr. G. Phipps :
That is visible to all your organisations so they are well aware of these indicators and understand them?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes. They are published, the majority of them. We have indicators that are not published that are also very important to me. One of the key pressures we had was around children going missing from our care, from residential homes particularly. We have had a real focus in that space. By the middle of this year we have seen a 50 per cent reduction in that activity, so again that will be something that we monitor. I do that jointly with States of Jersey Police. Other indicators that we do not publish but are really important to me around child and adolescent mental health is that we had a very high number of children going into hospital, receiving inpatient care in hospital. The number of days for those children has reduced dramatically as we have increased our community services, which is good. That is what we want with the prevention service. So we look at published indicators and then we have service-specific indicators we monitor as well.
Mr. G. Phipps : Thank you.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
How do you define what is going to be a non-published indicator as opposed to a published indicator?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So most of the indicators we have now have been ones which have been carried over from previous public indicator reporting. We discuss it with the Minister. So the Minister and I are considering changes to some of the indicators we should publish. The Minister is really keen to do that. We think we would like to publish more of the C.A.M.H.S. indicators particularly. I am keen that we get underneath some of the education indicators, particularly exclusions from school and particularly
where we might have part-time timetabling. That is a critical indicator for us. So there are additions that we are considering to add in our reporting cycle for 2024. We are discussing that with the Minister now.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. Thank you. I think what we will do is request a copy of the non-published indicators in writing so that we can, as a Committee, review those as well.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Of course.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
We have spoken about risk. I am conscious that while speaking about risk you spoke about something that had become an issue, which was the providing care to children in an unregulated setting. Am I correct in thinking that has now dropped back into the risk register, it is not on the ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: No, that is still one of my top 3 risks.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
But is it ... so what I am trying to get to is: how many of your risks are currently issues, have flipped over into issues?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
That risk has not. So Greenfields was a high risk. That has now moved over into an issue. But the residential care capacity is still quite full, so there is a continued risk in that space. That is why we are continuing to increase the capacity.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So you just have one current issue, is that how many ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: No, we have multiple issues identified. I can tell you now ... 2, 3, 4 ... we have 4.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
How do you monitor those issues as opposed to the risks that we discussed earlier?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We do both. So within my risk and oversight group we look at risks and we look at issues. I require an update from all of the risk owners in terms of progress, mitigation and what are they doing to manage the issue or the risk.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. Are you able to tell us what those 4 issues are?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I can. The first is the single central register. That is a safeguarding element. Our schools do not have a single central register in terms of safeguarding oversight. We have picked that up through our quality oversight so the school review framework is now addressing that and we have developed the single central register. School and libraries fire assessment is an issue and we are working through those fire assessments with colleagues in J.P.H. and I. and E. The insufficient capacity in children's care settings is an issue. Greenfields was a risk; that is now resolved more to an issue which is being managed, and obviously we have the inspection oversight for that.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Thank you. Then when you were talking about managing some of those other risks, you talked about things that are more corporate issues, such as the planning. You talked about the timelines for gaining planning, the issues around the availability of contractors and also we have discussed about the need for workforce. You are a member of the Executive Leadership Team. I know a number of the other members of that team also have those as issues and risks. How do you as an Executive Leadership Team work together to prioritise where some of that resource might go?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think we need to do more in that space. We have an opportunity for discussion around the risks within the E.L.T. (Executive Leadership Team). We have an agenda item that will cover the area. Then agreeing which scheme takes priority over another scheme happens outside of E.L.T. So that will be a conversation usually between the involved officers. So a key one will be estate risk where both myself and Kate Briden from Justice and Home Affairs and Andy Scate needed to come together to consider prioritisation in terms of where we are going to address first. The stratification does not happen within an E.L.T. context in the forum, it happens outside of the forum I would say.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
But the members of E.L.T. are working together to ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, individually. We will come together for the relevant Chief Officers who are impacted.
Okay. Thank you. Going back to employee objective settings and appraisals, how do you ensure that objective setting throughout your department, and that is at all levels, links back to both the ministerial and departmental priorities?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So through the objective-setting process we make sure that we have a golden thread. So my objectives need to become the department's objectives, which are relevant to the workforce, of course. I have 100 per cent completion for my tiers 1, 2, 3, for my Senior Leadership Team, to make sure that they reflect our trajectory and our travel and then they are set. It is a complicated system for C.Y.P.E.S. So within education they do not use the Connect Performance process, they use a different appraisal system. There is really good compliance with that system. Aligning to the Connect Performance system has been problematic for our education system. The remainder of C.Y.P.E.S. is on the Connect system and we are working through our objective setting. We are at 64 per cent and we need to do better. I recognise that. That has also been quite a challenge within the department.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So how many employees does that represent that are in scope for Connect?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Just under 2,000 within education and 640-odd within the rest of the services.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay, so the majority of your staff fall out of scope for Connect Performance?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
They do and they have 94 per cent completion within schools for objectives to be set under the P.R.A. (performance review and appraisal) system. It is very robust, but that does not get recorded within Connect.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. Given that you are one of the largest departments staff numbers wise, how much input did the department have into what the requirements and the functionality for Connect Performance should be?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We had a department lead in terms of interface around the programme and there had been a lot of focus from the E.L.T. in relation to rollout of the programme. It commenced before I had started as Chief Officer in the department. There is clear evidence of that. In terms of direct provision engagement with the programme, that was not strong enough, so ideally I think you would really want head teachers to be in the room and to inform how the programme is then delivered, particularly into schools. That was not prominent enough. It is difficult to release head teachers to attend the programme rollout preparation. They need to be backfilled and that was not in place. We have I think as a result ... I am sure the panel is aware we have probably more than other departments encountered real operational challenge with the system, both from a purchasing perspective and an operational perspective, a finance reporting perspective and obviously from a people perspective.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Can you describe what some of those challenges are just to put a bit of colour for ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
The most simple one was that our platform for education to access online services was not compatible and once the rollout had happened our teachers were not able to access much of the availability of the Connect platform.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So this was after it had been rolled out?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes. So we had to take immediate action ...
Mr. M. Woodhams : Was it not tested?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There had been. So the procurement element and the finance element I understand had been quite seamless. It certainly has not been seamless since rollout, but the team have been addressing and they have put a lot of remedial action in to address it, but there are challenges around the Connect system with the schools. I understand and I recognise that it is very difficult for an organisation as complex as the Government of Jersey to find a system that can meet all of those needs from health to police to education to all the breadth. We are working to make sure that we can manage that. Many of the issues we have encountered have been around payments and that is quite critical for us. If we have foster carers who are paid late, that is a critical function. So we have had to put quite
a lot of manual oversight of that process from our side, Treasury side and the procurement side. Those issues are getting better and we are working through them.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Is there an intention to get people off the existing system then, so with it still being used because Connect will not seem to work, on to Connect?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: We would like to get everybody on to Connect.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
That is a lovely aspiration but is it planned to do it and by when?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We do not have a definitive plan for schools at this moment in time, no, and I would not sign up to that until ... the Minister is absolutely clear and I am clear we need to resolve the challenges we have within the system before we continue to expand it.
[14:00]
Particularly within schools, they are pressured and head teachers need to understand that those issues are resolved before we then roll out further. So what we are doing is a small pilot. The health and safety module has gone into 3 schools. That has also been challenging and we are not rolling any further until we have addressed the issues that we have.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
I am going to ... bearing in mind that we have 2 different systems and quite different set-ups, I will ask questions about the education setting and then in the children's services and other settings.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Of course.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So with regard to the education setting, is the current system that is being used in schools to track performance of people working in that setting currently fit for purpose?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, I think it is a very robust system. I think there is really good oversight from school advisory and improvement service and the head teacher. It is very purposeful and it is clearly set to the school agenda. There is lots of spot checks in terms of quality assurance. It is a good process. It is a well- known education approach to P.R.A.
Deputy L.V. Feltham : Is it used in other ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes, other schools outside this jurisdiction.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So would it be what would constitute best practice?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
It is consistent with what we would see in most P.R.A. approaches within education, particularly in the U.K. (United Kingdom). So under our school review framework, which very much reflects part of Ofsted's oversight, they will want to understand teacher appraisal and whether or not it meets the required standards and is consistent.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
You as the Chief Officer are getting the information that you require to assess performance across education from that system?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, from that system and from our indicator oversight of the education system. So where I think there is improvement needed is around the inclusion agenda. So the school review framework is changing and it is specifically going to have a focus on where we might have more complex need and when we might have challenging behaviour, particularly where schools need more support. There is a really key objective. I want to see a reduction in the number of exclusions from schools and I want to see a reduction in part-time timetabling. I want to see a reduction in disapplications from students sitting exams, and I want to see more students within the mainstream system, within arcs within the mainstream system. So the way the review framework will work, including the objective oversight, will very much have a slant on inclusion.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Can you do that within the current system and processes that you are using?
Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. I will ask you a question then that I have not asked anybody else. Why would you move to Connect Performance?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think that is why we are considering whether or not we do at this time move to Connect Performance. The teaching professional workforce are quite happy with the P.R.A. system and if the Connect system does not provide the same level of quality and quality assurance, then I do not believe we would move to it. That is why we have paused at this time. There is an intention to but we do not have a firm timeline set for that at this moment.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
What needs to change within that current Connect Performance system and process for it to become fit for purpose? Because what I am hearing is it is currently not fit for purpose for the education setting. What needs to happen within the Connect Performance system to make it fit for purpose?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There needs to be very seamless compatibility to the education platform. There needs to be the ability for the professional scope of the teaching workforce to be reflected within the objectives. We need to look at ...
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Sorry, what do you mean by that?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
We need the ability to add additional objectives. Initially, it was set to 8 objectives to be added. For some of our professionals, they will need much more than that and it needs to be very intuitively seamless to be able to help people do that. It needs to be quick. It needs to be useable for a really big workforce. I think that time and time to complete is a really important thing when you are a busy teacher. If it is clunky and it is difficult and it takes a long time, then I would not want that.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
I was going to say surely those things applying to a large force, being quick, being able to be variable, applies to every other substantial department within the States. So have they had those challenges and overcome them or have they not overcome them?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think those challenges are consistent with my workforce predominantly and health. I think that there is similar challenge around doctors. I understand nursing objectives are within Connect, but I think that some of the ... with the accredited ... some of the professional appraisal alignment is proving challenging. I understand that is why S.O.J.P. (States of Jersey Police) also have not moved over to the system at this time. We are in a similar position.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. So what other areas, aside from education, have not moved over or are out of scope? So, for example, within the health and social care area?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: They are on Connect.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
They are all in Connect now?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So we have ... did you say 640 of your total staff is in Connect?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
You are assured through that process that there has been a consistency of objective setting at all areas?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There will be consistency of objective setting in terms of the corporate objectives around finance, health and safety, quality. There will be differential objectives set for the different professional areas. So within social care I would expect the objectives to reflect the reform programme and what we are doing in improvement, the improvement programme effectively. C.A.M.H.S. will have some consistency but will also have very bespoke requirement within C.A.M.H.S. It is really important for me and I think part of the problem we have had is we have to respect the difference across our
workforce and our professional workforce. There are some things that are bespoke and are individual to individual professions and individual parts of our service. They are not all the same and we hear that through our Be Heard feedback. We have tried to respect that within the objective setting.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So the 46 per cent of the 640 staff that have not completed, when you say have not completed do you mean that they do not have their objectives in Connect Performance?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay, and objectives were meant to be in in January.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: January.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
What percentage ... okay, let us start with them. Why do you think they do not have their objectives in Connect Performance? Have they got objectives?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
They do have objectives and I am confident that we have good oversight of the workforce. The reason why I am confident of that is because performance is good and because we have good workforce metrics happening. We have a very low attrition, the lowest attrition rate in government. We have a low sickness rate as well. I am seeing performance oversight being quite robust within the department. If our indicators were not good and if our statutory K.P.I.s were not good, I would be really worried with that kind of completion of objectives and concerned that we are not having good oversight and good management oversight of staff. I do not have that concern. I have regular update in terms of those staff being clear about what they need to do and I think there is good performance management oversight in place.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So do you think by the end of the year the percentage will go up?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
What is going to be the key driver that gets people to get their objectives in the system?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Time has been a challenge. Speaking to health colleagues, I think for some of our critical roles, for some of the registered managers within the care settings, when they have quite big workforces getting the time to go through the shift pattern and all of their staff has been a challenge because we are also really pushing them around the quality of improvement. So while everybody is really clear about what they need to do to drive the improvement and to deliver on their performance, getting that into the system has been quite a challenge. We are supporting them to do that. I am confident we will address it. The States Employment Board are unforgiving about not completing it. We have to do that and I have a plan to address that. By the end of the year I would not expect that only 64 per cent of our workforce outside of education have their objectives set.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
A very quick question: how do you plan to stop it being repeated in 2024?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think now we are getting into the cycle and by the end of the year once we have embedded in the oversight the midyear performance, which is going to be towards quarter 3/4 for us, the teams will recognise the value of using the system for oversight.
Mr. G. Phipps :
Are you getting enough support to help people to do this?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think we will need something bespoke for my department. Where we have had that, we have seen real success. So I am working closely with People and Corporate Services around that. I think that is a big part of it. Having people to come out to help leaders and managers work through the system and understand it will help us. It certainly has around many of the issues we have had with Connect.
Mr. G. Phipps :
Hold their hand until they get comfortable and start using it?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
So we have now passed the midyear point, so at this point staff that are in scope for Connect should have had their objectives and their professional development goals put into the system in January, had a quarterly review around March time, April time, and then had their midyear review by now. What percentage of your staff have gone through all of those processes?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I am waiting for the latest run, but we were up to 58 per cent of staff having midyear review. So of those that have had the objectives set, we are doing quite well in terms of them having the midyear review set.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. All right. So if there is 58, 6 per cent ... not 6 per cent, I will do the maths later [Laughter]. Okay. So with those people that have not, how are their objectives being monitored throughout the year?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
That is through our crucial conversations. So we expect those staff to have the same level of oversight. There is lots of paper, lots of other Excel sheets, lots of other examples where those conversations are taking place and there is obviously the professional accreditation for many of them. So for our nurses, for example, in C.A.M.H.S. they will be having their revalidation conversations. The conversations are happening. We need to capture it.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
The challenge, though, is that when you are managing risk, if you are giving assurance that you are managing your risks, one of your key objectives is the performance of your individuals. What you are saying to me or to the Committee is the fact that you do not actually have the data.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: We have the data. It is not on the system.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
No. You do not have the data for people's objectives, whether they are meeting them, whether they have been tested, for half your workforce that is on the Connect system.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: On the Connect system, yes.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
The other part is not following a system that is the main States system.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: They are not following the system.
Mr. M. Woodhams :
So the thing is having the unified data together to look at as a whole, so as head of an area you can say: "All right, fine, here is the information that we can interpret." Unfortunately, there is a blank section.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: There is a big proportion of the workforce that we do not have that information on.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
You mentioned earlier that you have 65 per cent, I think it was, permanent social workers now.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
I am aware that within your department you have lots of different ways that you may well be employing people.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Obviously, we had hoped that most people were on States of Jersey permanent employment contracts through the S.E.B. (States Employment Board). How many other ways of employing? What are the other ways of employing staff that you are currently employing?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
So we have a very low contractor employment in my department. We have just 7 people at the moment. That has reduced from 11 from last year. Then everybody else who is not substantively employed is employed through agencies. We have 31 agency social workers, 9 within residential services, 10 within child and adolescent mental health, and at the moment we have 12 within teaching. We have been up to 16 within teaching. Again, that is quite low in terms of agency workforce for a big workforce like ours, apart from the social work indicator.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Then when you used the word "contractor" what did you mean by that?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
They are on a contract for services, so for a fixed period of time where they are providing something additional. It could be specialists. It could be around a specific reviewing purpose. We often will use people, particularly within the education reform programme, whereby we need to bring people in from a specialist base.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Then consultants, does that include consultants?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: That includes consultants.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. With all of those people, how many of those are using Connect Performance or the performance management system within education?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
A really low proportion would be using the Connect system. The teachers would not be. The ones who would would be within the social work space. So for the 31 agency social workers, for those social workers who we expect to be with us for a long period of time, with us for, say, a year to 18 months, they will use the Connect Performance system. They will be required to. So we have access for them.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
How is the performance managed of any of those contract agency staff if they are not on ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I would say there is heightened oversight in terms of agency staff because they require more support. They require a different level of oversight. They will have obviously their own framework within their agency, but our heads of service are required to make sure they are supporting them. A crucial part for me, particularly in the social work element, has been - and we have seen this through feedback - whereby agency workers have arrived, they have not understood our systems, our processes, what they need to do for referrals, so they require a lot more oversight from the heads of service. That happens in a much more formalised fashion now. That is part of our improvement plan.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. I will hand over to Deputy Coles .
Mr. M. Woodhams :
Can I just ask a very quick question? With your agency staff, what is the median average for their service? What is the ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: How long they stay?
Mr. M. Woodhams : Yes, how long they stay.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
It is variable. I mean, in social work it was really quite quick. We were seeing them come and go. Sometimes they would stay for a month assignment. We are starting to see that lengthen.
[14:15]
So in social work they are staying for longer. Teaching less so. We are not seeing beyond a year for the majority of those. Child and adolescent mental health, again that would not be particularly long. We are recruiting into most of those vacancies.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Before we move on to Deputy Coles ' questions, I know Deputy Andrews has a quick one.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes, thank you very much, Chair. Just in relation to agency staff, have there been any problems that have arisen where there has been something reported back to you due to an individual who has been in place for a stint and maybe things have not gone to plan?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes. Yes, there has. I have had to give real, acute focus on my director and my chief social worker and the associate director in that space. We have needed to really monitor agency quality output. We have some fantastic agency staff, but there was a concern from me when I came into the role that I think there had been some tolerance for off-Island agency staff working off-Island. I do not think that is acceptable for social work provision, so we have stopped that. I think there has been previously some quality assurance challenge, so we are very robust in that area. Certainly, some of the learning we have had around serious incidents has pointed to the absolute need that where you have really complex cases you cannot have staff who are potentially not going to be here in 6 months. Unfortunately, that has happened in the past and we have had to address that.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
I am going to move on to the employee satisfaction of your vast area. You mentioned before that you, you say, have a low attrition rate. What is your average turnover of staff?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: It is just under 7 per cent, 6.7 per cent in the latest figure.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
That is for all areas, C.Y.P.E.S. and education combined?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes, for the whole department.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
You also mentioned that you have had the Be Heard survey feedback. Unfortunately, you are our first and only senior officer we are going to have that is after the result of that.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Okay.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
How do you find that your department did on its employee satisfaction within your area?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I am very pleased with the Be Heard results. I am very pleased that we had more engagement than 2020. It opened up to a bigger workforce than 2020, so we had 829 responses. I think that is probably going to be one of the biggest if not the biggest return from the Government. I would like it to be higher, given that we are a big department. But in every domain we have improved, with the exception of fair deal. I think that reflects the position that we are in in terms of industrial action with the teaching workforce, and also the residential children care officers were also scored very low in terms of what they felt their pay terms and conditions and reward was. But overall in terms of engagement, leadership - giving back particularly I was really pleased with - we have done really well, much better.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
Was there any barriers in the way then for, like you say, with the people not being on Connect? Were there any kind of barriers like that that has maybe contributed to the low return?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, there are. I think again it is consistent with the Connect. I really want education to use the Be Heard survey more. There has been previously a teaching workforce survey. We have used the Be Heard survey this year. I would like there to be much more interaction and feedback from that workforce, so I would like to do a Pulse survey there. Then there are pockets within C.Y.P.E.S. where we have not got as positive results within some of the areas. I want to really deep dive into that. We do not just have Be Heard in C.Y.P.E.S. We use what we call Sword, so social work professional feedback survey as well. That has really shown improvement since the last time we did it. I want to pull all of that together.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
So you have positive feedback, but there is the gap on the remuneration of teachers. But as a general feeling of morale among the whole team is there ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
There are a few things that are worrying me, so pressure. Well-being we scored better than 2020 but it is not a huge shift in the dial and I think that is an area that we need improvement on and where I want focus. I think we need to do much more around staff well-being and to do that we have to make sure the conditions of work and the environment and the caseload and the challenge in the environment are addressed. That is certainly what our improvement programmes are about. I also am really interested in one of the indicators which is around effectively multi-professional working. It kind of implies that where you might have what could be referred to as power struggles and this was a theme that emerged in 2020. This is really crucial for me for multi-agency safeguarding particularly. We have lots of different professionals. You really need to work together and it is telling me that we need to do more on resolving professional differences, making sure that our frameworks are clear and also that escalation processes are appropriate and they are managed in a good way. So I think there is a bit of focus there for me in well-being and the managing conflict particularly.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
But do you feel that there is ... as a whole, an average, would you say your team, if asked, would they say they dread coming to work, they come to work or they are happy to come to work?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I feel that morale is improving, particularly in key parts of the organisation. I am really pleased about the social work feedback. I am very pleased about C.A.M.H.S. We have some standout areas. The Youth Service scored really highly and I think that is a model to really look at. They have a really different management approach to their workforce. It is a big workforce. Then there are pockets where I can see there is real pressure, so the inclusion team, within some parts of our education system, within the residential care space, really need to give focus there and we have a big plan around that. So I have found the feedback from the survey really reflects how I feel we are progressing. It is a good heat map for me.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
Okay. Also, I know you are new to the role so you might not have been around for the One.Gov reforms of 2018. Do you have any sort of feeling of impact that the Team Jersey programme had on your department?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I am not sure on the department. There is a ... you mentioned about the department coming together, and as part of my vision and working with my Senior Leadership Team I have been revisiting that. Because the department was brought together for a reason in terms of making sure that education is talking to care and mental health and that the skills is talking to further education and higher education. Now I have libraries as well, which is great, but they really need to work together. We need to make sure that the teams and the services are wrapped around children, young people and families. I think there is more to do there. That is what me and my leadership team ... that is what I am focused on. I feel Team Jersey is not referenced a lot in the department, but I know it was used. For me, I am trying to use the feedback that we have had on the service. It is really good feedback around leadership, which I am very pleased with as well, but there are areas we need to focus on. So we are taking all of that to feed into our ... we have very clear plans. The Minister is very clear about what she wants to achieve and the team want to achieve and we are working to that.
Deputy T.A. Coles :
That links quite nicely on to ...
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
I am going to take you further back than Team Jersey to workforce modernisation because I am conscious that I think one of the only areas that accepted workforce modernisation was residential care workers, which you are now telling us ...
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes, the area that has low satisfaction.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Yes, so has that had an impact?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
I think it has, yes. So we are in the process of reviewing the position around terms and conditions. We are going to work with that workforce. For me, there is something fundamental about the role, not just the pay and conditions. We are asking people to look after and care for some of our most vulnerable children, children who are often under the care of the Minister. I think that needs to be a professionalised role. I think it needs to be invested in. I think we need to provide much more support to those childcare officers. It is an odd term in terms of officer so we are looking at that with the workforce as well. I think it is an area that is at the front of my workforce plan in terms of review and potential change.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. Given where you are now with that set of people who did accept that particular offer at that time, are there lessons learned that you can then share with other members of the Executive Leadership Team that might be useful for any future changes?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Yes, absolutely. There are lessons learned because in our care reform programme and in the additional funding that we have had to have, there has been a fundamental requirement around some of the safer staffing requirements in care homes. That is correlated a bit to the terms and conditions that came from workforce modernisation in that provision. We cannot allow that to happen again. You have services that are 365 days a year, they are 24/7. They have to be established to provide that. There are some real lessons learned from that, yes.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Okay. We have a number of follow-up questions ...
Mr. G. Phipps :
Could I just have one more pertaining to this if you do not mind?
Yes, sure.
Mr. G. Phipps :
You mentioned the Be Heard and other mechanisms where you are getting feedback from your staff. How do you track and understand the feedback from your customers, your key customers, which are the children and the parents of the children? What mechanism do you have in place? What comment can you make about the overall feedback and understanding of that whole domain?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
It is incredibly important. I have invested heavily in this space. I have a dedicated role that is part of my Senior Leadership Team. It is a role that reports into me that is focused on engagement and participation. A key priority of the Chief Minister, my Minister and my team was to get participation and engagement standards for what we need from children and young people, so listening to children with care experience. The children and young people's survey gives us hugely valuable feedback. More to be done around families and I am particularly interested in some of the success we have in an online application called Mind Of My Own, which we give to our children who are under the care of the Minister, where children are able to communicate directly to us at any time to say: "I do not like this. This is not working for me. I want to talk to you about this problem." I would like to extend that to families who are requiring support and to think about how we can really build on more immediate responsive support where you have escalating need. So getting that feedback is critical. I also want there to be much more prominent engagement from children, young people and families around providing support and development of changes in our service. I would like them to be informed by the voice of the service users and not professionals just mandating those changes to them.
Mr. G. Phipps :
Can you see this being reflected in the key performance indicators and these things being shared to the public so they can see and track year over year? Is this where you are seeing this going?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes. So I think the ...
Mr. G. Phipps :
Then the next part of that was when will this be in place, because I think I know the answer to the first question.
So in C.A.M.H.S. it is a really good example because the C.A.M.H.S. mental health and well-being strategy, which was before my time, it is not my work, that was really informed by young people. It was really prominently engaged with children and adolescents who had been through the C.A.M.H.S. system or were part of that system previously. You can see how their experience has shaped the way the service works and you can see how that has started to impact on the service outcomes, the K.P.I.s. I want the same in children's services.
Mr. G. Phipps :
But I guess what I am getting at ... that is great, but is that now something that is going to be tracked and measured and these kind of things so that people can see when they are putting this input in it is being heard and here is the impact it is having, here is where it is being tracked, that kind of thing, as you do with other performance indicators?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Actually, no, we need to do better there because I think we need people to understand that their input has led to the case for change and that they are part of that. I think we have something to do ... we have a lot of our K.P.I.s are output focused. A lot of them will be on demand, capacity management and processes within our system. I really want them to be focused on outcomes. What does it mean for the family of the child? How are they providing satisfaction back to us? I think we still have some work to do in that space. The Minister is really keen to build on that and our informatics team are very much looking at how they can help us with that as well.
Mr. G. Phipps :
So do you anticipate we will see something within a year where that is being tracked and ...?
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Yes, I would like to.
Mr. G. Phipps : Okay. Thank you.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
I am conscious we have come to the end of our allocated time. We are also doing a review into governance of health and social care, so I think what we will do is we will bring you in again to ask you some questions on that in all likelihood.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills:
Okay.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Also we do have some follow-up questions on previous recommendations from both the Comptroller and Auditor General and P.A.C., so we will send those particular ones to you in writing.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Of course.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Thank you for your time today.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Thank you.
Deputy L.V. Feltham :
Thank you to all of the officers that have supported us today as well. I will now close the hearing.
Chief Officer, Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills: Thank you.
[14:28]