States Meeting Transcript - 18/07/2006

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 18th JULY 2006

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

1. Written Questions........................................................................6

1. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING COMPARATIVE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY PARENTS OF STUDENTS ATTENDING UNIVERSITY FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS:.......................................................................6
2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BUDGET STANDARDS FOR HOUSEHOLD TYPES:....7
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING CONSENTS GRANTED UNDER THE J' CATEGORY HOUSING POLICY:................................................................................8
4. DEPUTY S.C. FERGUSON OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING STANDARDS AND COSTS OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE: ...............................................................................10

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................13

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the availability of the inspection report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary:....13 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................13

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................13
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................13
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................14
4. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................14
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................15
6. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................15

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the functions of the States of Jersey Police for which she has responsibility: ...............16 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................16

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................16

2. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ..........................................................17
   3. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the establishment of a Police Authority: ....................................................18 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................18
   4. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding policy for the sale of States investment in utilitycompanies:............................20 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ..........................20

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................20
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................21
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Social Security regarding return of unwanted prescription drugs:......................................................................22 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security): ......................................22

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................22
2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John : ........................................................23
3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................23
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................24
   6. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding confidence in the Board of the Jersey Opera House:..........................24 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................25 Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville (Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - rapporteur):.............................................................................25

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................25
2. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................25
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................26
4. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................26
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................27
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................27
7. Senator L. Norman: ....................................................................27
8. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................27
9. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................28

7. Senator B.E. Shenton of the Chief Minister regarding the possibility of the sale ofJersey Telecom: ...............................................................................28

1. Connétable D.J.M. Murphy of Grouville :...............................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................29
4. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................29
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................30
6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:......................................................30
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31

8. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the provision of legal advice to both the Executive and non-executive arms of Government:............................31

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding funding for 2006 summer international football event:..........................................32

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................33
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................33
4. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................33
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34

10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s regarding electoral registration:...................................................................34

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35
2. Senator B.E. Shenton: ...............................................................35
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................35
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35

11. The Connétable of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding business and residential parking scheme at Cheapside and Kensington Place, St. Helier:..............................................................................35 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):...36

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................36
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................36
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................36
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37

12. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Chief Minister regarding the establishment of a Citizens Panel:..........................................................................37 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................37

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................38
2. Deputy A. Breckon: .................................................................38 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................38

3. Questions without notice - The Minister for Health and Social Services..............38

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................38 Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.............................38
2. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier : ......................................................39
3. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................39
4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................39
5. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................40
6. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................40
7. Deputy R.G. Hérissier: .................................................................40
8. Deputy R.G. Hérissier: .................................................................41
9. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................41
10. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................42
11. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................42
12. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................42
13. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................42 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................43

4. Questions without notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services......43

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................43
2. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................43
3. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................44
4. Senator L. Norman: ....................................................................44
5. Senator L. Norman: ....................................................................45
6. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................45
7. Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en of St. Saviour:...............................................45
8. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................45
9. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................46
10. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................46
11. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................46
12. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................47
13. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................47

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................47

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson (Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee) regarding the sale of land at Howard Davis Farm:....................................................47

2. Deputy G.P. Southern (Chairman of Economic Affairs Panel) regarding the relocation of Jersey Dairy to Howard Davis Farm:....................................48

1. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................48
2. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................49 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................50

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................50

6. Island Plan 2002, Policy H2: Field 91 St. Clement (P.70/2006)........................50

1. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):.....................51
2. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement (Assistant Minister, Chief Minister's Department):...51
3. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................54
4. Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................54
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................55
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................55
7. H.M. Attorney General:................................................................58
8. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................60
9. Senator L. Norman: ....................................................................60

LUNCHTIME ADJOURNMENT...............................................................62 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................62

10. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................62 H.M. Attorney General:......................................................................62

11. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................62
12. Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en:..............................................................64
13. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................64
14. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................65
15. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................65
16. Connétable M.J. Jackson of St. Brelade:................................................66
17. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................66
18. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................68
19. Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................68
20. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................69
21. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................70
22. Senator M.E. Vibert :...................................................................73
23. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................73
24. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................74

7. Draft Jersey College for Girls (Removal of Covenants from Former Site) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.62/2006)..........................................................................78

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ....................78
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................79
3. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................79
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):......................79
5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................79
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................80
7. W.J. Bailihache, Q.C. (H.M. Attorney General):........................................80
8. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................80
9. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :..........................................................80
10. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................81 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................81
11. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................81

8. Income Tax: allowances, reliefs and exemption thresholds ("20 means 20") (P.58/2006)...............................................................................82

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................82

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ....................82
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................85

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................88
2. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................91
3. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................92
4. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................93
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................94
6. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................94
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................95 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................96

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................98
4. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................98
5. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................98
6. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................99
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................99
8. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................99
9. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre of St. Lawrence : ............................................100
10. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:......................................................101
11. Senator M.E. Vibert (Minister of Education, Sport and Culture):......................102
12. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:................................................................102

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................105

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING COMPARATIVE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY PARENTS OF STUDENTS ATTENDING UNIVERSITY FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS:

Question

In order to assist in the consultation process on university funding, would the Minister provide members with comparative figures showing the contribution made by parents of Isle of Man, Guernsey, and mainland U.K. students?

Answer

Although the fees charged by universities for students from Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are the same, the arrangements for determining the level of parental contribution towards those fees are different in each Island and some of those arrangements can be quite complicated.

Guernsey

The level of parental income is assessed and then allowances against that income are applied. Elements of parental income, therefore, are disregarded if there are other children in the family; consideration is also given to single parents. After allowances have been taken account of, the residual income is used as a base for determining the contribution.

At the same time, the student need is also assessed according to the cost of tuition, (which varies between courses), the location of study, (there is a London weighting), and the number of weeks of study. In addition a figure of about £5,000 is added as the subsistence element.

The parental residual income is then taken account of in order to determine the level of parental contribution required.

In view of the above it is impossible to give precise details of the actual parental contribution which might be made by a particular family. Generally speaking, however, for 2006/7 a family with an income of £25,000, a sixteen year old at school and a student at university would make no contribution. The same family earning £50,000 would contribute £3,821. If the family income was £75,000, the parental contribution would be £10,071.

The Isle of Man

The Manx government pays all tuition fees and it supports parents with living and travel costs through a scheme of means-tested grants. A family with an income of £25,000 with a sixteen year old at school and a child at university would contribute £1,804. The same family with an income of £50,000 or above would be expected to pay all living and travel costs, estimated to be in the region of £5,000.

Jersey

For the same year, a family with an income of £25,000 would make no contribution. A family with an income of £50,000 would contribute £4,708 and a family earning £75,000 would contribute £9,771

The U.K.

There is no formal requirement on U.K. parents to contribute towards their children's  higher education costs, in view of the fact that loans are available to students. There is, however, an inferred contribution in that the size of loan available is determined by parental income, the higher the income the smaller the loan available.

2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BUDGET STANDARDS FOR HOUSEHOLD TYPES:

Question

Would the Minister inform members –

1. how much was spent in producing the Report on Budget Standards for Jersey by the Centre for Research in Social Policy at Loughborough University, (the CRSP Report'), over the years 1997 to the present day?
2. whether, as said to be possible in CRSP444 in November 2001, the consensual budgets for all household types in Jersey have been up-ratedannuallyor re-costed every 3 years sinceand , if not, the reasons why?
3. whether the levels of budget standards that were revealed by CRSP in 2001 have been up-rated to 2006/7 figures and, if not, the reasons why? and,
4. whether these figures will be applied in establishing the level of Income Support in 2007 and, if not, will he explain the reasons why and give the approximate levels he intends to apply?

Answer

1. The Centre for Research in Social Policy at Loughborough University was commissioned to develop modest butadequate Household Budgetary Requirements in Jersey. The research used a consensual methodology where the budgets were not prepared by experts but by the very people that live within the household types. The costof this budgetary research from 1997 todate is £137,260.72.
2. The budgets have not been uprated annually. It is a matter of simple arithmetic to apply the relevant uprating indices to the budgets toproduce an up-to-date figure at any particular time. Re-costing the budgets would also be a waste of time and resource until closer to the implementation of Income Support.
3. No; for the same reasons given in (b) above. The setting of rates has little relevance at this time but will be more significant closer to the implementation of Income Support.
4. The research undertaken by CRSP has proved invaluable in identifying the type and extent of expenditure within various household types. The CRSP research produced different budgets for the different Household Types investigated. The reasons for the variations and indeed the similarities within the budget standards were explained in the report and presentation.The

Department has assimilated this knowledge into the design of the Income Support scheme.

These figures will not be applied directly to establish the level of income support as these only help in determining a basic living component and there will be more components than this in the Income Support scheme. I, and former Employment and Social Security Committees, believe that different rates of the living component would be divisive. For example pensioners would appear to have lower budgetary standards overall, (which includes heating costs), than other household types. I must re-iterate that these budgets were devised by the relevant household type in Jersey, (pensioners, single parents etc.), and not CRSP nor the Department or former Committee.

The Income Support proposals will be based on an adult basic component, a child basic component and a household component, and extra components to assist with the costs of housing, medical needs, and childcare. Further to the publication of the Household Expenditure Survey, additional comparative work and modelling is to be undertaken before the components of Income Support are proposed. As an indication of the approximate level, I have stated that the basic level will be above the current Parish Welfare Rate.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING CONSENTS GRANTEDUNDER THE J' CATEGORY HOUSING POLICY:

Question

Would the Minister inform members –

1. of the figures inrealand percentage terms for the distribution of j' category housing consents across the employment sectors he referred to in his answers to oral questions on 4th July 2006?
2. whether, as a result ofthe new j' category housing policy, an additional 600 non time-limited consents will be produced and, if so, whether this number is increased by dependants?
3. whether any non time-limited j' category consents areto be issued in respect ofthe estimated 500newj'-category jobs arising from the economicgrowthpolicy and, ifso,what proportion of these consents will be non time-limited? and,
4. how the new j' category housing policy will not affect population one bit' as stated in his answers to oral questions on 4th July 2006?

Answer

1. The total number of j' category employees as at 31st December 2005, was 1,185. Of these, 740, or 62%, were in the private sector, (a figure obtained from the 31st December 2005 Manpower Survey), and 445, or 38%, in the public sector, (a figure extrapolated fromthe2001 census figures). The Treasury and Resources Department have recently enhanced their six monthly public sector manpower returns so, in future, the public sector figure can be reported on an actual rather than extrapolated basis.

Of the 271 private sector j' applications processed and approved in 2005 –

1. 74, or 27%, were in the legal-financial sector;
2. 49, or 18%, in banking;
3. 36, or 13%, in services and transport;
4. 32, or 12%, were accountants; and

(v)the remainder, 80, or 30%, were in a variety of other areas.

2. This change does not create essential employment and, therefore, it will not lead to more essential j' employees. It will, of course, increase the proportion of unlimited consents from 10% to 60% approximately, andthisdoes equate to 600 existing consents becoming unlimited. It does of course not increase the number of j' consents, but merely transfers them fromtime limited, which in all likelihood would have been replaced by other time limited j's.

The average household size for a j' employee is 2.8, and therefore, it could be said that each j' employee has on average 1.8 dependents'.

3. The Economic Growth Plan makes no reference to "500 new j'-category jobs". The Economic Growth Plan rather sets a target of no more than an average 1% growth per annum over the period ofthe plan in the working population, and which roughly equates to 500 jobs.

The agreed policy is to promote local employment, and all the evidence confirms that this objective is being achieved. New jobs are filled over-whelming with locally qualified individuals; in 2005, 83% of all employees were local, and of the additional jobs created, 96% were for locally qualified persons. Further, it should be noted that non-local employment reduced by 70 positions in 2005.

Essential j' employees accounted for 2% of the working population as at 31st December 2005, and 14% of the growth in the working population in 2005.

4. As quoted in the report (j)' Category Housing Consents: Contract Policy' – Report(R.54/2006 re-issue) "there is a continuous movement of employees in and out of the Island in response to the economic environment generally, so the granting of unlimited j' consent at the outset does not mean that all will stay and achieve local housing status".

Further, as noted in a written response to question No. 2945 tabled on 4th July 2006, "One could

go further and state that j' employees are highly mobile, career orientated individuals, who having been prepared to come to the Island for work, are equally prepared to leave..".

Any impact on the population would only occur from those members of the current cohort of j'

consents who remain and would otherwise not have remained until retirement. It is expected that the net increase in j' consents who stay for more than 10 years and, therefore, gain their full entitlement at retirement will at most be minimal. Thus, if there is an impact on the population, it is expected to be very minimal.

Finally, it is important to remember that this change was motivated in many ways by a desire for greater equity; recognising the contribution these employees make to the Island, and the benefits of having a more stable society. As quoted in written response to question No. 2945

"..so long as the staff member remains essentially employed, contributing significantly to the Island, and they perform this for as long as it takes to obtain residential qualifications, then that is reasonable and equitable and promotes the kind of social inclusion and stability in the Island's population which is desirable."

4. DEPUTY S.C. FERGUSON OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING STANDARDS AND COSTS OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:

Question

Would the Minister inform members, for each of the last 4 years –

1. of the cost of overtime incurred by the Professional Standards Unit?
2. of the cost of any additional uniformed officers or civilian staff involved in investigations?
3. of the cost of overtime for additional uniformed officersand civilian staff involved in investigations?
4. ofthecostof covering the absence of uniformed officers and civilian staff on suspension including overtime costs incurred?
5. of the cost of secondment of officers from other departments or from the U.K. and of temporary/seconded civilian staff brought in to cover suspensions?
6. of the cost of any specialised equipment used by the Professional Standards Unit?
7. ofthe number of applications made for permission to institute a phone tap on officers and civilian staff under investigation?
8. of the cost of phone tapping, including legal costs of applications?
9. of the percentage of the Deputy Chief Officer's time attributable to investigations?
10. of the number of investigations each year?
11. of the number of officers and staff charged, arising from investigations?
12. of the number of retirements/resignations arising from investigations?
13. ofthetotal number of officers retiring in 2005 at 50 and 55 years of age? and,
14. ofthetotal number of officers estimated to retire in 2006 at 50 and 55 years of age? Answer

1. The totalcostof overtime incurred by the Professional Standards Department in the last four years is as follows -

2003 – £793 2004 – £884 2005 – £1,933 2006 – £505.

These are from an annual overtime budget for the Police of £560,000. The Professional Standards Department is probably the least costly department in the Police in respect of overtime.

2. There has been no additional cost other than overtime which is dealt with below. Additional officers were only used on two occasions and as both matters involved serious criminal allegations, the officers were utilised in their normal operational role of investigating crime. As explained in a previous oral answer to the Deputy , duties were re-rostered and other matters re- prioritised, as isusualwhen serious allegations of crime are made and needtobe investigated. One of these two occasions led to lengthy jail sentences at the Royal Court this year for a number of men for drugs importation, as well as other convictions at the Magistrate's Court. The other is being currently considered by H.M. Attorney General.
3. This only applies to two particular operations. The first was an operation which resulted in a number of men being given lengthy prison sentences at the Royal Court for importation of drugs, as well as convictions for other men in respect ofthe fabrication of alibis for guilty persons where they triedtoget an innocent person convicted ofan assault. This operation lasted three years and cost a total of £37,046 in overtime, but resulted in the jailing of a number of dangerous criminals. This was a Professional Standards Department enquiry, and interestingly is about half the costofthe recent enquiry by Devon and Cornwall into the fatal police crash last year. Thesecondcasewas a lengthy enquiry into corruption which resulted in an officer being required to resign after pleading guilty to serious discipline charges. The Police were given sanction to proceed with these before the criminal matters were resolved. H.M. Attorney General is now considering the question of a prosecution in this case. The overtime bill for this was £15,855.
4. Inrespectof covering costs for suspended police officers, the answer is the sameasthat given in the oralanswerto Deputy Ferguson on the 20th June 2006. There are no covering costs for police officers. Duties have been re-rostered or tasks re-prioritised. Departments have normally had to absorb the absence of suspended staff in the same manner as those sick or seconded. The one exception was when, in a particular department, the three top civil service staff were suspended for misuseoffundsandotherassets.Thatwascoveredbythe temporary promotion of one existing staff member to Head of Department, (since ratified permanently), and the employment oftemporary staff for six months. The totalcostofthis was £26,030 inclusive of the temporary promotion.
5. No staff have been brought from the U.K. to fill in for suspended officers or staff. The costof civilian staff brought in to cover on one occasion only is shown in (d) above.
6. The Professional Standards Department does not possess specialised equipment. If required, they use the standard equipment issued to and retained by the Technical Support Unit ofthe Police.
7. and (h)

For legal and operational reasons, the Police cannot either confirm or deny anything in relation to this. The Police's general operational activity in this area is inspected each year by the Surveillance Commissioner who reports to the States.

9. The Deputy Chief Officer does not take part in investigations; he supervises and directs the most serious, sees all files at completion, and decides on the disposal of cases which are not criminal. The answer, therefore, is nil.
10. Public Complaints – 2003 – 44

2004 – 38

2005 – 38

2006 – 16.

Internal Complaints –

2003 – 11

2004 – 19

2005 – 12

2006 – 8

It will be noticed that the number of complaints made by the public is falling. Internal complaints have risen in line with increased confidence among staff that matters will be effectively dealt with.

11. 2003 - one police officer and five civil servants were charged with discipline offences. The police officer and one civil servant later resigned before hearings, three civil servants were sacked at hearings, and one civil servant received a final written warning, but later resigned when he again came under investigation. Additionally, five caseswere dealt with by words of advice'.

2004 - two police officers and one civil servant were charged with discipline offences; one of the officers was also charged criminally. The two police officers and the civil servant resigned before a hearing. Seven cases were dealt with by words of advice'.

2005 - one police officer was charged with discipline offences, pleaded guilty, reprimanded and subject to Service Confidence Procedures. Five cases were dealt with by words of advice'.

2006 - two police officers were charged with discipline offences; one was reduced in rank and one was required to resign and is awaiting H.M. Attorney General's decision on criminal charges. Two civil servants were charged with discipline matters and are awaiting hearings. Five matters so far have been dealt with by words of advice'.

12. 2003 – nil.

2004 - Three police officers and one civil servant resigned whilst under criminal/discipline investigation.

2005 - three police officers and one civil servant resigned whilst under criminal/discipline investigation. One other probationary officer's probation was not confirmed because of the number of similar type assault allegations from the public and other performance issues.

2006 - One police officer was required to resign as an alternative to dismissal after pleading guilty at a hearing; the outcome of criminal investigation is awaited. One police officer resigned after a commercial quantity of drugs was found at the home address shared with a partner and the launch of discipline investigation.

13. 2005 - Eight officers retired at the age of 50; two retired who had stayed to 51; one retired at54;two retired at55;andoneremainedto57.Sixofthesecontinuedtowork within the States, two of them within the States of Jersey Police. Another 11, who could have retired, chose to remain.
14. 006 - Two officers have left this year atthe age of 50, but both have remained withthe Police in other capacities. Onewill retire in September at the age of 50. Two retired at 55. Another 14 are eligible to retire but have given no indication that they have any wish to do so.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the availability of the inspection report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary:

I would ask the Minister for Home Affairs when is the inspection report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) due to be received by the Minister, and will it be circulated to Members of this Assembly?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

The report is expected some time in August and will be circulated to Members.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

In view of the appalling management record and practice, as evidenced in the number of recent disciplinary cases over the last 4 years, will the HMIC report be paying special attention to human resource matters, particularly as these have cost - with yesterday's revelations - about £1 million in direct costs and an unquantified amount in other costs?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I completely disagree with the statement of the Deputy in respect of appalling practice. Until I receive the new HMIC report in August, I am happy to rely on the previous one, Sir, which found that the States of Jersey Police were both efficient and effective in all areas. HMIC is indeed drawing attention to matters to do with leadership and matters to do with discipline and so on, and I suggest that we await the outcome of that report, but all indications are at the present time that there is not the concern to be addressed that has been raised by the Deputy . I do sometimes feel that there are some Members of this House who seem to feel that it is quite acceptable for corruption to go unchallenged and unnoticed, and I am afraid to say, Sir, that is not the Jersey way. I am Jersey- born: this is not the Jersey way. It is to be dealt with appropriately, and I suggest that the Deputy , before she makes such inflammatory comments, awaits the outcome of the report in August.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

I wonder, Sir, if the Minister could tell us despite the very fine situation that apparently prevails there, could she tell us from her own point of view what are the management issues that give her particular concern and what action is she taking?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I do not have particular concerns about management issues. I have reported in answer to previous questions in this House that I have absolute confidence in the senior management team of the States of Jersey Police. Indeed, some people have referred I think in some organs of the press to some golden age of the past, and I will remind Members that indeed recorded crime has fallen by 25 per cent in the last 10 years; that, as far as I am concerned, is a very important aspect of my responsibility as Minister for Home Affairs. I am responsible for ensuring that the police force is accountable in terms of its efficiency and effectiveness, and I think that is a very good example of it. Indeed, longer serving Members of this House will also recall that although we have had an excellent inspection report in recent times since I have been both Vice-President and President, and hopefully again as Minister, this has not always been the case, and certainly in the early and mid- 1990s there was some very critical HMIC findings. So, I am very happy to be associated, Sir, with the independently verified substantial improvements in both performance and public confidence in the force.

3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

The Minister is no doubt aware that under the 1974 Law, the Police Chief is accountable to her for administration, discipline, training and organisation. Now, under the HMIC thematic report - which she kindly brought to my attention - one of the underlying themes was the fact that management procedures and processes in the area of professional standards in the police force are woefully out of date and need to brought up to date with modern management procedures. Will the Minister not confirm that this is going to be done or looked at, preferably by an outside body?

Senator W. Kinnard:

That report to which the Deputy refers I indeed referred her to it. It is an HMIC thematic report about professional standards across the forces throughout the country, and indeed some of that report does draw attention to inadequacies in other forces. I am happy to say, Sir, that I do not believe that the HMIC will find such criticisms to be made of the Jersey force.

4. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Yes, the Minister referred just a short session ago on corruption issues. I have not heard anything to indicate that we have any corruption issues. I see it being discussed in the media, but that is not necessarily so. Can the Minister confirm yes or no whether she believes that there are corruption issues, and if so, is the police force dealing with it through the Crown Officers or are there any criminal issues that are outstanding at this moment in time? Thank you, Sir.

Senator W. Kinnard:

Most of that information, I believe - if the Deputy wishes to refer to the answer I have given to the written question of Deputy Ferguson - there is quite a full briefing there, Sir, as to which cases are being dealt with by words of advice, which cases are being dealt with by discipline matters, and indeed it does refer, I believe, to one outstanding case which is with the Crown Officers. So, there remain a range of issues that are the subject of complaints, both by the public and also internally, and I am happy to say, Sir, that the level of public complaints against the force has fallen over recent years. I do believe that some of the internal complaints that we are getting now are because staff are confident that such matters will be dealt with effectively and will not be swept under the carpet, as perhaps on some occasion in the past, Sir, they may have been.

5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Most of the offences, which the Minister refers to in her answer, have in fact been disciplinary offences not corruption in the normally accepted meaning of the word. Surely, the Minister realises that this is a lack of proper management procedures and human resource management, and not a matter to be headlined across the papers as corruption.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I would agree that I think many of these matters should not be headlined across the papers, but that is not a matter for me. However, Sir, I do believe that any complaint has to be taken with the utmost seriousness, must be investigated absolutely fully, and the public must have confidence that these matters are dealt with appropriately. There are a range of complaints that are made from time to time, some of which may involve criminal aspects, many of which do not, but I do believe, Sir, that it is not sufficient just to deal with criminal matters through the courts. It is important that disciplinary matters are dealt with and that the public has every confidence that their police force, who is involved in administering the law, is abiding by the law, and abiding by the appropriate and indeed rigorous standards of professional conduct that we expect in the modern day police force in this Island.

6. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

We all share the concerns of the Minister on the levels of corruption, however I think one of the concerns many people have is the amount of time it takes to investigate the allegations. Again we can only speak from what we read in yesterday's Evening Post, but it looks like 18 months to investigate a particular case. Is the Minister concerned about the levels of time it is taking - bearing in mind that justice delayed is justice denied - and what steps will be taken to ensure that we do not get these lengthy levels of investigation, which are also time-consuming and also has an effect on the individuals, particularly if they are found to be not guilty?

Senator W. Kinnard:

First of all I would say when we are dealing, of course, with corruption matters we are talking about a small number of people where allegations may be made, and for the vast majority of our police force, Sir, I am very confident in saying that they are excellent, well-trained and a credit frankly to both the Minister of this House and the Island. However, having said that there are on occasions a few bad apples which have to be dealt with. In terms of the time that it may take to deal with disciplinary matters and perhaps criminal matters, I regret that it takes often a lengthy time. These matters are sensitive, they are often complicated, and I have given answers on this matter many times to this House before and I really do not know how many more times I have to give them. Frankly, the important point is that wherever an investigation takes place it is in everyone's interest that it takes place as quickly and as swiftly as possible. Indeed I have asked her Majesty's Inspectorate to address this as one of the points that he would be looking at in compiling his report. Indeed I have met with the force management team and they are as concerned as anyone that these matters must be dealt with swiftly. But, Sir, justice must take its due process, and that, in my view, is more important than anything else. But clearly whatever can be done to speed-up the process we are looking in fact to do that. So, I can honestly say to the House that I will be looking for some improvements in terms of the swiftness with which these matters are dealt. But having said that, Sir, the important thing is that justice is not only done, but is seen to be done.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the functions of the States of Jersey Police for which she has responsibility:

With regard to the States of Jersey Police, would the Minister inform Members what functions she has responsibility for, and should that not encompass all activities to whom the police are accountable for the remainder?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

It is my duty to secure the maintenance of an adequate and efficient police force, and this responsibility is clear in the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974. Accordingly, States of Jersey Police are accountable to myself for the delivery of an effective service to the Island, and this encompasses all their activities. There is no remainder of policing activities for which the force is accountable to someone else.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

As the Minister informs us this morning she is apparently responsible for nearly all the activities of the States of Jersey Police, apart from operational issues I presume Could she tell us why the situations that have been developing of recent time have been allowed to do so? Has she, for example, called the Chief Officer into her office for an explanation, or if not, will she be doing so shortly?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Perhaps the Deputy would be clear in his question as to what situations he is describing? Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

It would seem the Minister must have a very short memory. We have been talking just a few moments ago about disciplinary issues; there have been allegations of over-reaction; there were inappropriate comments in the media about firearms - I could go on for some length.

Senator W. Kinnard:

Firstly, if I may take the firearms issue, perhaps the Deputy would be kind enough to say to this House that he has a conflict of interest in this matter as I believe he took part in a recent shooting activity. But leaving that aside, as to the firearms issue I think that this House is very aware that a very detailed report is being compiled, being led by my Assistant Minister. So, I will not go over that, and again I would ask Members to await the outcome of that report rather than to rely on anecdotal and inappropriate comments by others. In respect of the other matters to which he refers, including the disciplinary matters, I have made it quite clear that I have asked Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary to look at this issue because of some concerns that have been raised by Members. I have also to say that I have answered many questions in this House as to the level of oversight that there is in terms of these matters. When complaints are made against the police these are overseen by the independent Complaints Authority. If they had concerns about how these matters were dealt with, I am absolutely certain that they would make those known not just to myself, but indeed to the whole of this House in the regular reports that they give on that matter. I have to say, Sir, the States of Jersey Police Force is probably the most scrutinised organisation in the public sector. There are regular quarterly reports on statistics, crime levels; there are yearly reports; there are independent inspections; there is the oversight of an independent authority; there are indeed many Members of this House who, on a daily basis sometimes, question the Chief and the senior officers of the force on various matters. There is a very great openness in terms of replying to questions from the media and others. We have nothing to fear, I believe, Sir, either myself as Minister or the States of Jersey Police, in terms of transparency and accountability, and I think that that is the way forward. What concerns me is that there are some Members of this House who seem to think that some matters are better left uncovered and swept under the carpet when indeed that is not the way in which we maintain the robust reputation that we have in this Island for a dedicated police force and a well-run, well-regulated Island. Thank you, Sir.

2. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

The Minister would not have been in position at the time, but the Minister did say that we have got a few rotten apples, and I am asking does she think this could possibly be because for a certain period of time when we used to take training officers on, not one of them ever failed their training. On an average all the years previous to that about a quarter used to fail, but there was a period of time that we took everybody no matter what they did. Do you think that could be where a lot of this stems from?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I would not like to comment, I really do not know whether that was the case or not, but clearly there were some concerns raised by HMIC in the 1990s about aspects of States of Jersey Police in terms of its efficiency, its leadership and so on, but that is old territory and I do not wish to draw attention to those because I do feel that sometimes people who have perhaps been in this job in the past are encouraged to comment. Perhaps they comment off the cuff and do not always think about what happened under their period of tenure. So, I will not go further into that other than to say there is no point in going over old territory: we are moving forward. I am delighted to be associated with the absolute independently verified improvement in both practice, procedures, efficiency and indeed I think the overall standing of the force, both in terms of its abilities, but also in terms of the public and its view of the force. Over 90 per cent of people are saying that they are satisfied with the service that they receive from States of Jersey Police, and I think that is something of which we should be proud.

2.2.2 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

We have heard a very bullish performance this morning, but I believe a totally misguided one. Clearly the Minister has a view of the States of Jersey Police that is not shared by members of the public, nor indeed members of the States of Jersey Police themselves. I wonder, Sir, if the Minister would consider resigning and making way for somebody that is more proactive.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I most certainly will not, and I certainly would not consider resigning in the face of someone who is an avowed critic of the police and has been throughout his period in this House. Several letters going back several years to me demonstrate this to be the case. I think it is outrageous frankly that such inflammatory, unsubstantiated comments can be said about a body of young men and women - for the most part. The new recruits are excellent, are extremely well-trained and have an extremely difficult job to do, and I just wish that some Members would stop for one moment and reflect about who they would call in time of need, and I am sure they would be the first ones on the phone to the States of Jersey Police headquarters.

3. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the establishment of a Police Authority:

Would the Minister of Home Affairs agree that in the days of the Committee system that there was a pseudo police authority, which meant she was not on her own in over-viewing what the police were doing, and does she not agree that now we are in Ministerial government we should be looking to produce a Police Authority as soon as possible so we can have a broader overview of the public perception of what goes on within the policing?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

When we had the Committee system of course there were more people who were in a position of seeing general policy matters and so on. As the Minister, again, I am not alone. There is an independent complaints authority; there is the HMIC; the openness and transparency with the press and so on and so forth. The Members of this House indeed also ask questions. So, I am not alone in this matter. But indeed I have been for some time, as you know - as indeed other Presidents before me - wrestling with the issue of the Police Authority, and indeed may I remind Members that perhaps before they think that they are aware of all the issues that they go back and re-read R.C.35, which was circulated to States Members. At the time I do not think all that many read it because in fact I received only one comment despite letters reminding States Members about this report, which is all about setting up a Police Authority - its pros and its cons - and suggesting an alternative such as the Liaison Committee. Indeed what I might do, Sir, for the benefit of new Members in particular who obviously will not have had that report is I will seek to get that circulated alongside the report of Cameron McPhail, who - contrary to comments in the press - it was not convenient that the gentleman concerned decided that a police authority as originally envisaged was not appropriate for Jersey, it was extremely inconvenient because we thought that at last we had found someone to be Chairman of the Authority, and in fact it became a great shock when he decided that, in his view, although he was doing himself out of a job as it were, it was not appropriate. This is a very highly respected gentleman from the finance sector, so I would say, Sir, that I will re-circulate that report and perhaps then Members may be more considered in the sort of questions that they ask in this House. Thank you, Sir.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

In respect of that report, the Minister has indicated during the course of her last speech there But again the person concerned was opposed to the theory, or the whole principle of a police authority, so therefore his report cannot be seen as a balanced report, and really as such I would ask that the Minister does not waste any money and time or effort re-releasing R.C.35, because it is only a one- sided report. This House made a decision in 1999.

The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):

A question please, Deputy , it is not a speech The Deputy of St. Martin :

So, can I just ask that the Minister does not waste any time and effort in circulating it, because really it is a biased report?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I think that is extraordinary. R.C.35 is a report that is a report of Home Affairs - the previous Home Affairs Committee - which sets out the pros and cons. It is not biased one way or the other. It sets out the facts and the arguments as they are, and I think it would be of value for Members to read it. Indeed, this is interesting because I was recently called to a Scrutiny hearing where the issue of a Police Authority was raised by the Deputy as the Chairman of the Social Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Indeed, he agreed with me that although he had brought the original proposition to the House to set up a Police Authority, he actually said - and in fact I copied his words down verbatim, I do not have them with me today, but I can produce them - that he agreed with me that he no longer thought that a Police Authority in the form in which it was originally envisaged in the legislation was appropriate and he therefore agreed with me that what should go into the Strategic Plan of the States was a proposal to set up a liaison or consultative panel.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Would the Minister not agree with me that, over the years that I have been in this Assembly at least, the Home Affairs Department and the responsibilities that it oversees has suffered from a lack of support and a lack of funding in most areas that it has to manage its operations. I can name the prison for one; and the current police headquarters, which means that the police themselves have to operate out of 18 different locations. Is it not a fact that the Minister in charge of this remit is dealing with a whole host of situations that she has inherited because of our joint lack of action over the last decade?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I am grateful for the support of the Deputy and I would say, yes, with respect to the prison I definitely do feel that there has been a lack of corporate responsibility for that issue, with which I am now wrestling, but I am beginning to feel that I am getting more support than I have done hitherto, but of course we will see whether the money follows the bells as it were. But the issue about funding elsewhere, I am not going to complain too harshly; we are all on strict and strained budgets and I would say that in the other areas we are managing, and we indeed intend to manage. I think that we have got an extremely effective and efficient set of services across the whole of the Home Affairs remit, apart from as I say regretfully, the prison. I think we should be grateful for the fact that we are requiring our men and women in these difficult frontline services to take on more and more within existing resources, and indeed I wish to give my heartfelt thanks and would hope that a few more in this House would also share in giving heartfelt thanks to those men and women who do an excellent job on behalf of the Island in those often extremely dangerous and difficult situations. Thank you, Sir.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding policy for the sale of States investment in utility companies:

What progress, if any, has the Minister made towards developing a policy, in consultation with the Council of Ministers, if applicable, for the full or partial sale of the States investments in utility companies, such as the Jersey Electricity Company Limited and Jersey New Waterworks Company Limited, and if none, when does the Minister expect to progress this matter?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

The commitment 6.3.1 of the Strategic Plan indicates an objective to consider the sale of States- owned utility companies, the proceeds of which would be deposited in the Strategic Reserve. The plan also commits to the provision of clear criteria, the protection and efficient provision of services provided by States-owned and States-controlled utility companies. The Council of Ministers has given consideration to this matter and decided it would not consider the sale or partial sale of either the Jersey Electricity Company or the Jersey New Waterworks Company until a robust regulatory framework is in place. The Minister of Economic Development has agreed to progress the development of regulatory framework for water and for electricity to complement that already in place for telecoms.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can I turn to another public utility please, Sir, which I believe well, I will ask the question; has the Council of Ministers agreed with his proposal to bring to the States in October the principle of the sale of Jersey Telecoms? Could I ask him further what consultation he has already had with the management and directors of the said company and its employees, in particular in the light of the time-scale - which we have read about only in the newspapers - that it is brought by end of October. The 24th October, leaves a 6-week lodging period from 12th September, and according to the paper, 8th September is the final date for consultation. It leaves 4 days to redraft an entire proposition. Has the proposition in fact already been written?

The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):

We will  be coming to this  in a later question, I am sure the Minister will  no doubt answer nevertheless.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am obliged and even if I were not obliged I would still want to bring an issue of this nature to the States for the States to make a decision on whether or not we should sell Jersey Telecoms. I confirm that that decision will be taken by the States Assembly after the due period of consultation with members of the public and interested bodies, such as the staff and directors of Jersey Telecoms, who have already engaged in consultation prior to the issue of this document. The document was issued with the full knowledge of the Board of Jersey Telecoms and with that of the Council of Ministers, and I hope that that consultation period will enable any people with interest or concerns to express those to me in order that the ultimate proposition, which has not yet been drafted, can be drafted in the appropriate way.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will they refer to the dates available for consultation, and the date he intends, or the Council of Ministers intends, to bring this proposition to the States?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The dates for debate will be obviously ultimately in the hands of States Members. I am anxious that once this sort of proposition sees the light of day it should not drift along unnecessarily and unduly. We have, I suspect, a fairly busy session in the autumn, and when we debate it in the autumn session will be a matter for this House to decide, but I am anxious that the possibility is that the longer we delay this the greater the possibility of a decline in the value of the assets, which would be against the public interest.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Would the Minister answer the question in respect of the Council of Ministers, because it certainly was not clear to me; has the Council of Ministers agreed in principle for the sale of Jersey Telecoms to come to the States in October?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The Council of Ministers has agreed with the principle that it should come to the States for debate. The Council of Ministers has also agreed that we should issue a consultation document first in order that we have all the information we need to make an informed decision at that time.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister not agree that such a major decision needs careful scrutiny, and that to hold a relatively short period for consultation over the holiday break essentially, is a fundamental mistake; and will he agree that this item should be deferred until proper scrutiny can take place to ensure that this is absolutely the correct way forward?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I omitted to mention earlier in my answer to an earlier question, that among those whom I consulted was also the Chairman of the Corporate Affairs Scrutiny Panel whom I advised of this proposal before it saw the light of day.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Nonetheless, does he not agree that in order that such a major decision should take place that some form of detailed scrutiny is absolutely essential before we press ahead with this particular scheme?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

It is not my duty, Sir, to decide what Scrutiny should or should not decide, or what their terms of reference should or should not be. It is up to every Member of this House to ensure that they are fully informed before they make that decision, and Scrutiny will be part of that process to the extent they want to get involved, Sir, that is entirely a matter for the Scrutiny Panel concerned.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister not agree that a date in October renders proper scrutiny of this issue absolutely and completely impossible?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur : No, Sir.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Social Security regarding return of unwanted prescription drugs:

Are details of unwanted prescription drugs, which are returned to dispensing pharmacies, reported to the Department, and if so, what is the percentage and value of those returns, not including prescriptions returned for disposal after the expiry date?

Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):

The simple answer to the question is no: details of medicines returned through the pharmacies are not reported to the Department. However pharmacies do notify the Department of medicines returned in exceptional quantities, which in turn helps the Department to emphasise the need when discussing with general practitioners to review medication on a regular basis with their patients. The Department also benefits from the advice of a pharmaceutical advisor who helps G.P.s review their prescribing habits and associated costs. Although wastage is an issue, fortunately Jersey's limit of 30 days supply on prescription helps to control that because we just do not have the same issues that other jurisdictions have.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I wonder if the Minister would consider attempting at least to gain some idea of the scale of the issue, because my understanding is that some medicines are heavily subsidised by the taxpayer when they are paid for at the normal prescription rate, and if there was any significant amount of return of drugs that could conceivably be used again, surely there could be considerable savings for the taxpayer. Would the Minister consider attempting to get some view as to the volume and monetary value involved?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Firstly, I am amazed at the suggestion that prescription drugs which have been prescribed for an individual could be considered to be re-issued to somebody else. There is no knowing of how those drugs have been stored or used and it would be totally inappropriate to consider to re-issue those drugs to another patient. In fact my understanding from the Minister of Health is that if a pharmacist was to attempt to do that he would be struck-off. So, I do not think it would be appropriate to take that line of action. With regard to the value of drugs which may not be used, the Rotary Club run a Dump' campaign quite regularly and I think at the last time they carried that out it was estimated that about 10 per cent of drugs for the Island are probably not used, and a value to that would be about £1 million. So, there is wastage, there is no doubt about it, but ethically and sensibly and reasonably it is not appropriate to re-issue drugs to other people.

2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John :

The Minister just mentioned the Dump' campaign, that is what my supplementary was going to be about. Would the Minister consider that in conjunction with the Health Department a campaign could be set up to dispense safely unused and expired products? I believe the last national campaign was back in the 1980s, and of course this resulted in quite a large decline of incidents of the likes of children inadvertently accessing prescription drugs. Would the Minister consider some kind of campaign to encourage people to dispose of their excess drugs?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, certainly, I believe from Dump' campaigns that when it has been carried out before in previous years it has been very successful. What I would encourage people to do when they are prescribed drugs is firstly to use them in the way they are prescribed, because there is not even confidence that people take the drugs at the right time and there is national information being gathered which does indicate that if people do not use the drugs in the way that they are prescribed them, it could even be that the drugs are not being effective, so there is even more wastage. So, there is that side of it, but with regard to Dump' I would certainly recommend that a similar campaign is carried out and encourage the population to dispose of their drugs very carefully.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

The Minister has already stated that nobody reports pharmacies do not report the return of drugs. He has also stated we over-prescribe, and under the Dump' issue about £1 million of drugs a year are disposed of. Now, that is quite a lot of money. Who polices this? The Minister, Sir, also mentioned that if a pharmacist was doing this he would be struck-off immediately, but as far as I can ascertain from the answers so far, nobody knows and there seems to be a lot of money and a lot of drugs involved in this question. Thank you, Sir.

Senator P.F. Routier:

It is quite a wide-ranging question, but certainly the mechanism for people receiving drugs from the pharmacies is fairly straight-forward and we have to be sure and encourage people to use their drugs wisely. There are people and we know, personally, you probably get prescribed an amount of drugs for a particular month's series, or 30 days, and do not use them all. That is quite possible. It is possible that you feel better within the 30 days, so there is an amount of drugs that does get wasted, and as far as monitoring what the pharmacists do if they were to re-issue them, the pharmacists are licensed pharmacists who have a strict code of conduct which they have to abide by, and we have to rely on their professionalism to ensure that they do maintain high standards.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

So, can I take the answer is no one is policing this, Sir? Thank you.

Senator P.F. Routier:

You can, yes, but their licences ensure that they have to continue in a proper manner.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Yes, clearly there are circumstances where a pharmacy might find it inappropriate to re-use drugs that had been returned because they did not know about the condition of them, so the Minister gave us a couple of reasons why they could not be re-used. Could he tell me, for example, medicines which have not even left the pharmacy premises - why they should not be reused? He also stated that of course one could not be sure of how they had been stored. Can he guarantee that between the manufacture of the drug and the actual receipt of it by the pharmacy that it has been properly stored all the way?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I am sorry, I have forgotten the first part of the question. Can you repeat the first part? Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Drugs that had not left the pharmacy.

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, sorry. Certainly if a drug has not been prescribed to somebody, if it has not left the pharmacy it would not have been prescribed out, so the conditions that they had been stored in would be correct and in a correct manner.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I think perhaps if I could assist the Minister he may have misunderstood me, if I could perhaps give a very quick example? Were I to be prescribed a drug and I go to the pharmacy to collect it, and I receive the packet of drug, I look at the thing and say: "No, I do not want to take those" and give them back, they are immediately thrown in the dustbin. Surely that is not a wise use of taxpayers money.

Senator P.F. Routier:

I am sorry, Sir, but that is quite a wild example, which I think the Deputy has If somebody has been prescribed a drug I would hope that they would recognise that was a drug that their G.P. recommended for them and that they would take the drug. The decision not to take that drug would have been perhaps better made when the G.P. was prescribing them in the surgery.

6. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding confidence in the Board of the Jersey Opera House:

Before asking the question could I say for the record that I have recently joined the Jersey Arts Trust, although I do not believe this bars me from asking a question about the opera house? I am a friend of both the theatre director and the chair of the Jersey Opera House Board, both gentlemen are parishioners of mine. However, I have no financial interest in the opera house, unless of course they are planning to put on one of my plays and have not told me about it. [Laughter] Does the Minister have confidence in the Board of the Jersey Opera House and that it is discharging its responsibilities in a proper manner?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

My Assistant Minister, with responsibility for culture, the Deputy of Grouville , will act as rapporteur in this matter.

Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville (Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture -

rapporteur):

In common with many Islanders, Education, Sport and Culture is saddened and concerned with the unfortunate events that have troubled the Opera House in recent years. For this reason we do monitor the situation and have been kept informed generally of the changing situation. For legal reasons, and to be fair to the individuals, it would not be appropriate to discuss the details in public. However, given the legal obligations and duties borne by the Members of the Board of the Jersey Opera House Limited, I can say that Education, Sport and Culture is satisfied that the Board has legitimate reasons to be concerned. In any event, the Jersey Arts Trust is the sole shareholder of Jersey Opera House Limited, and Education, Sport and Culture has been assured that the Arts Trust has, and I quote from the Chairman: "Total confidence in the Board." The Constable of St. Helier is, as he has already said, a member of the Jersey Arts Trust and would therefore have been aware of their total support, especially if he had attended their recent meeting at which this issue had been fully discussed.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

In view of the allegations of financial regularities, will the assistant Minister explain why she does not feel that it has been necessary to insist on a police investigation, or even is it not time for a truly independent review?

The Deputy of Grouville :

I believe a police investigation was discussed at the Board level, however they felt it was more appropriate for the individuals concerned to go to the Jersey Employment Tribunal.

2. Senator B.E. Shenton:

The Opera House saga has been mishandled for years. Is it not the case that the Minister and the Board are more interested in finding a scapegoat than sorting out this debacle once and for all for the benefit of the Islanders?

The Deputy of Grouville :

We have been troubled, as I said initially, with what has been going on at the Opera House, both last year with the overspends, lack of budget or whatever; that situation seemed to be resolving itself. We now unfortunately have to see the staffing issues of that theatre carried out in the media, which I would say is unfortunate, but nobody is looking for a scapegoat and, quite contrary, the theatre director's contract was coming to an end in October anyway, and if the Board had not acted as they are doing, having been alerted by their auditors of these financial irregularities, given that they have been given a States grant, I think we would have more reason to be concerned.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Assistant Minister confirm that the Education Sports and Culture Department has complete faith in the Jersey Arts Trust? Secondly, Sir, would she suggest any reforms that might be required in terms of the relationship between the Department and ultimately the Opera House?

The Deputy of Grouville :

Education, Sport and Culture has a partnership agreement with the Board of the Jersey Opera House. For the first time we have established a partnership agreement directly with them and not their sole shareholder, the Jersey Arts Trust. As far as we are concerned, because this is a situation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't", and I do remember Deputy La Hérissier during the cultural strategy debate criticising politicians for interfering and intervening with the Arts. We were accused of having we were told that politicians have no place in the Arts world, which we take on Board. These structures have been set up in a certain way whereby we are at arm's length from the Arts world. We have set up a partnership agreement with each of the cultural organisations. We give the Opera House Limited a grant and for that grant they have to open the doors of the theatre with a variety of entertainment for the public. As far as we are concerned that is exactly what they are doing, and indeed this might be an appropriate time to acknowledge the hard work of the outgoing director in putting on the shows that are currently being performed now.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if I could get an answer, does the Education Department have complete faith in the Jersey Arts Trust, yes or no?

The Deputy of Grouville :

We have no reason not to have faith in them. [Laughter]

4. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Earlier on in her answer, the Assistant Minister mentioned the fact that there is a monitoring of the situation. Can the Assistant Minister inform the House how often does she meet with the Board, and what monitoring system or mechanism is in place.

The Deputy of Grouville :

I have met with the Board on several occasions this year. They inform me generally what is going on and if they have any concerns with the organisation - not the running of the theatre - with the organisation - the property itself - so on. We have, I have to admit, discussed with them different ways of operating, for example, the Jersey Arts Trust, we would far prefer to see concentration on grass roots artists and culture and the Opera House. What we would dearly love to see is the Opera House get on and run the theatre.

5. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I just get clarification from the answer because I want to know what monitoring mechanism is in place. You do not have, or there is no monthly meeting with the board as far as you are concerned, or bi-monthly meeting. That is the sort of question I was asking.

The Deputy of Grouville :

We are establishing partnership agreements with each of the cultural organisations and we will also have service level agreements, business plans and so on. I am not entirely sure what he expects us to do: wade in and tell the Board how to run their theatre?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

To make it nice and easy, what I was asking is do you have bi-monthly meetings? That is basically it and the answer must be no.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Could the Assistant Minister confirm or deny that the current Board has already stated that they wish to disband by Christmas, and if this is the case, would not she agree that it is not that they have lost confidence in the Board, but the Board has lost confidence in the Education Minister and department itself.

The Deputy of Grouville :

I have not heard that rumour. [Laughter]

7. Senator L. Norman:

Does the Assistant Minister consider that the Board of the Opera House would be somewhat churlish and defective by sacking the Opera House Manager when he had already tendered his resignation?

The Deputy of Grouville :

As I have already said, when the auditors of the company pointed out financial irregularities, they had to take action and we believe the action that they have taken has been appropriate given the auditor's findings. If they did nothing - and they are receiving taxpayers' money - we would have been criticised and they certainly would have been criticised for taking no action. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to sit there and do nothing while he left.

8. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

Does the Assistant Minister have confidence in the process for selecting the new director of the Jersey Opera House and should an appointment be made in light of current events bringing disrepute to the Board?

The Deputy of Grouville :

The appointment panel, I believe, is made up from a U.K. independent person who has a great knowledge of running theatres in the cultural world, the Opera House Chairman and the Arts Trust Director. We have no business or we are not informed of this process: they go through the proper procedure.

9. The Connétable of St. Helier :

It is not a surprise to this Ministry to reply to a question with a snide remark and could I say for the record that I have attended all of the meetings of the Arts Trust that I have been invited to. [Aside] Would the Assistant Minister, given that no investigation of an independent type has been carried out but merely an audit by the Board's own accountants - who have given the accounts a clean bill of health on every other occasion they have looked at the accounts - think that the Theatre Director has been treated very shabbily and was he not entitled to an independent investigation before his life, his family and his career were taken through the mire by the Opera House Board?

The Deputy of Grouville :

I am not sure who went to the media first, but quite clearly this whole staffing issue and the irregularities have been played out by the media and I would say the outgoing Theatre Director has played quite a large part in that. The correct procedure is to go to the Jersey Employment Tribunal which I believe is taking place and then it will be up to the individuals concerned if they want to take the matter further.

7. Senator B.E. Shenton of the Chief Minister regarding the possibility of the sale of Jersey Telecom:

I apologise to the Minister for asking him to repeat himself. Has the Council of Ministers discussed the possible sale of Jersey Telecom and, if so, has any offer for the company been received or agreed in principle and will the Chief Minister on behalf of the Council of Ministers give an assurance that the matter will be brought to the States for a full debate before any sale is agreed?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

Senator Shenton alluded to this has been largely covered by the Treasury and Resources Minister in response to an earlier question - but to answer the question, the Council of Ministers discussed the matter on 15th June and agreed that consideration should be given to the possible sale of Jersey Telecom. It was also agreed that this proposal should be the subject of a consultation paper and this paper has now been issued. States Members and the public have been invited to submit comments by 8th September. No offer for the company has been received or agreed in principle and I can give an assurance that the matter will be brought to the States for a full debate before any sale is agreed.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

Could the Chief Minister give his definition of the word "consultation"? Senator F.H. Walker :

Well, yes Sir, as agreed by the States previously, the Council of Ministers has agreed on a series of consultative papers and, indeed, a paper has been issued which is available of course to States Members or be sent to States Members, if it has not already, and is available to the general public and all interested organisations. So, anyone in the Island who has an interest in the subject is invited to record that interest and to submit their opinions on the proposed sale however they may feel about it.

1. Connétable D.J.M. Murphy of Grouville :

Given that there are 450 staff and their families who are dependent on their jobs here, can the Minister give them some comfort about their future employment?

Senator F.H. Walker :

Yes, Sir, I believe they have already had assurances from the Board of Jersey Telecoms and the continuing security of the staff will, without doubt, be a question that the Council of Ministers will be addressing and I am sure without doubt will be a question that the States would wish to address should the question of its sale ever go that far.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Chief Minister share his Treasury Minister's high opinion of Scrutiny in that he believes we could produce a proper in-depth report on this measure in the period 7 weeks and does he share this high opinion that Scrutiny can do this or walk on water?

Senator F.H. Walker :

I doubt that Scrutiny can walk on water, although some Members might like to think they can. [Laughter] This is an important issue and there is no doubt that it is the type of issue that Scrutiny should play a full part in and I have no qualms or reservations about that at all. What we need to do is work together here - not in opposition - work together to ensure that we come up with a result which is in the best interests of the taxpayer, best value to the taxpayer and of maximum benefit to the consumers of telephone and services in Jersey and I do believe that the time-scale allows. It is short, but I think working together it can be achieved. What we have got to remember here is that this is a highly commercial situation and if we are to maximise the value to the taxpayer and the benefit to the consumer, we do have to move quickly. I would look to the Scrutiny Panels here for their full and total co-operation in enabling us to do so.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Chief Minister say whether a serious option was the so called J.E.C. option when this particular decision was being made:

Senator F.H. Walker :

No final option has been agreed upon. The only position that the Council of Ministers has agreed to is that we should basically explore the possibility of selling Jersey Telecom. As the consultation document makes clear, Jersey Telecom is now one of very, very few telecoms companies still in public ownership. There are reasons for that and there have been tremendous benefits to both taxpayers and consumers in other countries through the privatisation of hitherto state owned assets. But no options have yet been fully explored, no decisions have been taken. This is an exploratory exercise at this point.

4. The Connétable of Grouville :

If I could refer the Minister to page 4 of the discussion paper issued by him. At the bottom, the last paragraph: "The company has maintained a strong balance sheet which places it in a sound position to fund investment in the next generation network and 3G mobile network roll out." How does that justify the sale or even the thought of the sale of Telecom?

Senator F.H. Walker :

Telecoms in Jersey, like everywhere else in the world, is moving into a highly competitive environment. There are 3 other possible players entering the market and Jersey Telecom thankfully is in a strong position and thank goodness it is because whatever the decision taken we need to ensure that we have a robust telecommunications, a world-class telecommunication structure infrastructure in Jersey. Now, we are going to have the opportunity of investigating whether it remains in the best interests of the public to continue owning Jersey Telecoms, or whether it is in the best interests of the public - because ultimately it is only the public that matters - to pursue a sale and is purely an investigation at this point. The strength of Jersey Telecom should a sale proceed should enable that the public will earn a very considerable sum of money from any such sale.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

In a spirit of working together - entirely I could not agree more with him - is the Minister aware that I had been seeking the background papers on this item which was B7 due to debate for a full debate on the 8th June by the Council of Ministers. I finally got them on Wednesday, 12th July and I read in the paper the day after that the decision had already been made on Thursday, 13th July. Is he satisfied that yet again Members receiving information through the news and not through this House is a satisfactory way to ensure co-operation?

Senator F.H. Walker :

The Deputy has just said he received it the day before it went to the media and proper procedures were adhered to. We have a duty, obviously, to inform Members in the right way and the Council of Ministers has gone to great lengths in recent months to ensure that Members are informed before the media. But clearly we also have a duty to keep the public informed and striking a balance is what we always strive to do.

6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour :

Could I remind the Chief Minister of something he said in this House on 22nd June in reference to this during the Strategic Plan: "Sir, could I just I think clarify the position of the Council of Ministers. We are not in any way hell-bent on privatisation as has been suggested. We are hell- bent on working in the best interests of both consumers and the taxpayer. That is all we are saying. If any decision is recommended at any point which changes in any way the current ownership of any of the utilities, then we are perhaps thinking here the most likely, of course, would be Telecoms where we have a world-class service at very competitive rates we have to have or else the economy in the Island, never mind anything else, falls away. If there is any such proposal it can go nowhere without the full approval of the States. So, I do not know what Members are worried about at this point. There is no such proposal on the table and if any such proposal is ever put on the table it will come to the States and it will only happen if a majority of Members approve it." The question of the Chief Minister, Sir, is would he care to reflect on this statement and advise the House if he thinks it was inaccurate and misleading in the circumstances, bearing in mind he had earlier said that the Council of Ministers discussed it one week earlier on 15th June.