States Meeting Transcript - 28/02/2006

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 28th FEBRUARY 2006

QUESTIONS.......................................................................................5

1. Written Questions...........................................................................5

1. The Minister for Home Affairs will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier regarding the introduction of legislation to facilitate civil asset recovery...............................................................................5
2. The Minister for Economic Development will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement regarding ferry links with the United Kingdom and France............................................................................6
3. The Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour regarding the Committee's proposals relating to the future composition of the States..............................7
4. The Minister for Treasury and Resources will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the sale of the Aquila Youth Club site..8
5. The Minister for Housing will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the possible restructuring of Housing rents into a banding system........................................................................8
6. The Minister for Economic Development will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the abolition of the economic benefit test ........................................................................................9

2. Oral Questions............................................................................11

1. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding policies in place for the regulation of the fulfilment industry: ..........................11 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................11

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:...................................................................11
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:..............................................11
3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:..................................................12
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:...................................................................12
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................12

2. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the process for the appointment of staff in the Communications Unit:..........................................13

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................13
2. The Connétable of St. Helier : ........................................................13

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding progress on Share Transfer Property Stamp Duty legislation:..........................................13 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):..........................13

4. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding connection of properties to tight tank and soakaway drainage systems:...................14 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):...........................14
5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Economic Development regarding agreement with Condor Limited:...........................................................14 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................14

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement:..............................................15
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................15
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:.............................................................15
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................16
5. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade:......................................................16
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................17

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding formal channels for the education and training needs of the finance industry:....................17 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................17

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................18
2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John:.......................................................18
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade:................................................18
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................19
5. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ........................................................19
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................19

7. The Connétable of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the response of the Parish of St. Helier to the consultation on nursery car provision:..........20 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................20

1. The Connétable of St. Helier : ........................................................20
2. The Connétable of St. Helier : ........................................................20

8. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding funding of the Economic Growth Plan:....................................................................21

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................21
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................21
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:...................................................................22
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................22

9. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the Service Level Agreement with ferry operators for the southbound route:.................................22

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :...................................................................23
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................23
3. Deputy J.B. Fox:......................................................................23
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................24 Deputy G.P. Southern :........................................................................24

2.9.6 Deputy K.C. Lewis :...................................................................24

10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding road works at Le Dicq: ....................................................................25

2.10.1 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:..........................................................25

11. The Deputy of St. Mary of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding domestic households connected to tight tank drainage systems: ..........................26

2.11.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................26

12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Economic Development:................27

2.12.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................27

13. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding request to the Employment Forum about minimum wage: ............................................28 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):......................................28

3. Questions to Ministers without notice: The Minister for Housing...........................28

1. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.......................................................28 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):.............................................28
2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier : ......................................................28
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................28
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................29
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................29
6. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................29
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................30
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:...................................................................30
9. Senator J.L. Perchard:................................................................30
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................31

4. Questions to Ministers without notice: The Minister for Planning and Environment........31

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................31 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):...........................31
2. The Deputy of Grouville :..............................................................31
3. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:....................................................32
4. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................32

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................32
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................32
7. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour : ................................................33
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................33
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:...................................................................33
10. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : ............................................33
11. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:................................................................33
12. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................34
13. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:......................................................34
14. Deputy J.A. Hilton:....................................................................34
15. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :................................................34
16. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................34
17. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :................................................................34

PERSONAL STATEMENTS......................................................................35 STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY................................35

1. Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.......................35
2. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment): .....................36

PUBLIC BUSINESS...............................................................................36

6. Cigarette lighter refill canisters: sale to minors (P.218/2005)..............................36 The Bailiff :......................................................................................36

1. The Greffier of the States:............................................................36

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................37
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :..................................................................38
3. Deputy J.B. Fox:......................................................................38
4. Deputy K.C. Lewis :...................................................................38
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................39
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :................................................................39
7. The Deputy of Grouville :..............................................................39
8. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................39
9. Deputy G.P. Southern : ...............................................................39

7. Draft Public Elections Amendment (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.2/2006).................41

2. The Greffier of the States:............................................................41

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................41
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:............................................................42
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................42

8. Draft Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Act 200- (P.1/2006)...43

1. The Greffier of the States:............................................................43
2. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................43
3. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:..............................................................43
4. Deputy S. Pitman: ....................................................................43
5. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................44

9. Law Revision Board: Appointment of Members (P.12/2006) ..............................44

1. The Greffier of the States:............................................................44
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:...............................................................44
3. Deputy A. Breckon: ..................................................................45
4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:..............................................................45
5. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:...............................................................45

10. Agent of the Impôts: appointment (P.10/2006)..........................................45

1. The Bailiff :............................................................................45
2. The Greffier of the States:............................................................45
3. The Bailiff :............................................................................45

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS...........................45

11. The Bailiff :..............................................................................45

1. The Connétable of St. Clement : ......................................................45
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :................................................................46
3. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................46 The Bailiff : ....................................................................................46

4. Senator J.L. Perchard:................................................................46
5. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:...............................................................46
6. Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):....................46
7. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning):.....................................46
8. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):........46
9. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................47
10. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier:..............................................47
11. Senator P.F. Routier:..............................................................47
12. Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................47
13. Senator P.F. Routier:..............................................................48
14. Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................48
15. Senator M.E. Vibert :...............................................................48
16. Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................48
17. Senator S. Syvret: .................................................................50
18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :.............................................................50
19. Deputy A. Breckon:................................................................50

ADJOURNMENT..................................................................................50

12. The Bailiff :..............................................................................50

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. The Minister for Home Affairs will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier regarding the introduction of legislation to facilitate civil asset recovery

Question

On page 26 of the States of Jersey Police Annual Performance Report 2005, under the heading Financial Crime, it states that although both Guernsey and the Isle of Man are now in the process of drafting legislation to facilitate civil asset recovery powers, the States of Jersey have yet to reach a decision on the issue. The introduction of such powers locally could yield significant assets in seizures of criminal assets and would pose a major deterrent to criminals.'

Would the Minister –

1. advise the Assembly why the Statesof Jersey have not yet been asked to consider this

issue?

2. inform members whetherseizures made under such powers could increase the income of the States and be used to remove or seriously reduce the current backlog of financial crime cases and, if so, will she agree to take all necessary steps to expedite the preparation of such legislation in orderto alleviate the financial pressuresthat are being experienced at this time?

Answer

1. TheStateswasaskedtodebatecivil asset forfeiture on25thOctober last year. Itwas included in P.201/2005, the Criminal Justice Policy, at paragraph 11.44 and in the subsequent action plan. Had the States gone ahead withthe debate on the Policy, as I had requested, it is likely that I would have had the States' backing to take this action forward. The introduction of powers by 2008 for the civil confiscation of criminal proceeds is also included in the draft States Strategic Plan.
2. Under current Drug Trafficking legislation a Police or Customs officer may seize and detain any money which is imported into or exported from the Island if he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that it directly or indirectly represents any person's proceeds of, or is intended by any person for use in, drug trafficking.

Locally the power has recently been used to good effect at the ports to detain large volumes of cash being exported from the Island destined to purchase more drugs in the UK. The law enforcement authorities have successfully defended seizures in Court and achieved confiscation orders for over one hundred and fifty thousand pounds worth of drug money.

Such civil recovery' powers, however, are not available to Police or Customs Officers who discover large volumes of cash where they are unable to show that the funds have either been imported or intended for export from the Island. It is acknowledged that similar legislation dealing with the proceeds of all crimes and the enabling of civil asset recovery powers is required.

The United Kingdom has enjoyed significant success utilising civil asset recovery powers under the Proceeds of Crime Act over the last two years, taking the profit out of crime and placing confiscated assets back into front line resources charged with enforcing such legislation. Law enforcement agencies in the UK are currently securing approximately fifty million pounds of cash per year using such powers.

The extent of assets which may be recovered locally under the proposed new powers would of course depend on the scale of any applications and the view of the courts in response to those applications made. It would be unrealistic to attempt at this time to estimate the potential revenue from cases which have not been brought under a law which does not yet exist.

However, from the information available it appears possible that the proposed new law would release resources which could be recycled into law enforcement and that this could include strengthening the Island's ability to investigate further cases of suspicious transactions. The cash seizures in the UK currently fund the entire Asset Recovery Agency and the Regional Asset Recovery Agencies; and Police Forces also receive a proportion of the confiscated funds. The seizure of large volumes of cash from criminals who are unable to provide a credible and verifiable explanation for the money is now a major tool in combating crime.

Of course members will be aware that the prime purpose of such a law would not be to provide revenue but to openly demonstrate that this government is determined to ensure that the Island should not become a refuge for criminal assets. I hope that I can count on the support of members when these measures are brought forward.

2. The Minister for Economic Development will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement regarding ferry links with the United Kingdomand France

Question

With regard to ro/ro ferry services between Jersey, the U.K. and France, will the Minister advise –

1. whether the current service provided by the operator(s) fully meets the Service Level Agreement or other agreements that the States of Jersey have with them?
2. whether he is satisfied withthe current timetables published by the operator(s) and what action, if any, he intends to take to ensure that accurate and up to date timetables are produced and made available to customers by the operator(s)?
3. what guarantees have been made regarding continuity of service?
4. what plans, if any, he has in the event that the current operator withdraws from service?

Answer

1. Currently there is only a service level agreement for the passenger/carcarrying ferry service between Jersey and the UK (the northern route). This is now more than 8 years old in its design and only has the remainder of this year to run. A new service level agreement will be negotiated for 2007 and 2008.

For the period from 1st January 2009, an opportunity is presented for Jersey and Guernsey to work together, in planning the future provision of roll on roll off ferry services between all the Islands, the UK and France.

There is currently no service level agreement on the southern route but it is my intention to put an agreement in place for the period up to the end of 2008 as soon as possible.

In designing a new service level agreement I am fully aware of the need to address the interests of the consumer and to aid this process a Ferries User Group' is to be established. This group will provide a focus for consumer concerns and aid the design of the consumer element of service level agreements in the future.

Overall I can confirm that the service provided by Condor on the northern route has met the service level agreement terms and conditions.

What is important going forwards, is to recognise that any service level agreement should be seen as a document that can accommodate the commercial realities of the market place whilst serving the Island's needs for a reliable, robust and reasonably priced service of sufficient quality and frequency.

2. The service level agreement for the northern route requires the publication of brochures containing details ofthe daily schedules, and information on the fares and charges payable. This information is published on the company's website and the operator has confirmed that a printed brochure is available for the northern route as required by the service level agreement. Schedules for the southern route have not been produced recently. However, as explained in the above answer, there is no service level agreement requiring the operator toproducesuch schedules for that route at present. I am advised that it is Condor's intention toproduce a printed schedule for the southern route as soon as possible. The only reason why one has not yet been printed is because ofthechangesto service provision arising fromtheuncertainty surrounding Emeraude's intentions on the southern route.
3. InDecember2004,as required by its service level agreement, Condor signalled its intention to both the Jersey and Guernsey authorities that it wished to have its ramp licence renewed beyond 2006. The company has also agreed schedules with Jersey Harbours for this year and has expressed its intention to honour those schedules. Public statements also have been made by Condorof its commitment to continue to provide services on both the northern and southern routes.
4. As explained above, we plan to put in place service level agreements for the period until the end of 2008. I have no reason to believe that Condor will withdraw from theroute.

3. The Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour regarding the Committee's proposals relating to the future composition of the States

Question

Would the President inform members when the Committee is planning to lodge a proposition for debate containing revised proposals on the composition of the States?

Answer

The Privileges and Procedures Committee has initially concentrated on progressing Freedom of Information legislation. However, at our next meeting, to be held on 8th March 2006, we will begin looking at electoral reform issues, in particular election expenses, and we will assess how we are going to proceed with the composition of the States. members of the Privileges and Procedures Committee have also been requested to submit a brief paper outlining their views on composition issues.

Members will  be aware that issues relating to the composition of the States are likely to be controversial and it will probably be difficult to find a consensus. As I stated when I stood for the position of Chairman of PPC I am nevertheless keen to ensure that proposals are formulated and debated by October or November this year so that any changes agreed can be implemented before the next elections.

4. The Minister for Treasury and Resources will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the sale of the Aquila Youth Club site

Question

Will the Minister explain how the figures revealed in the Ministerial Decision concerning the proposed sale of the Aquila Youth Club Site (MD-TR-2006-0014) represent good value for money?

Answer

The site will be transferred at the nominal value of £10 prior to commencement of the contract, which will be managed by the Les Vaux Housing Trust. Although the Ministerial decision only records the receipt of £10, the financial model supporting the arrangement provides for an additional contribution to be paid to the States on completion of the contract based on the final account position. The current model estimates that this sum will be in the order of £246,500, although the final figure will depend on the overall development cost and rental assumptions in place at the time of occupation.

The scheme will deliver 26 units of lifetime' accommodation in an excellent town location, enabling mature residents to continue enjoying independent living. In the view of the Minister this does indeed provide good value for the States and the taxpayer.

5. The Minister for Housing will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the possible restructuring of Housing rents into a banding system

Question

Will the Minister give members further details of the possible restructuring of Housing rents into a banding system as referred to in the report accompanying Ministerial Decision MD-H-2006-0004 and provide details of its impact on Housing rents?

The Housing Department is currently working on restructuring Housing rents into four categories of banding, namely A, B, C, and D. This will cover all property types and will be based on the condition of the dwelling. Those in Band A' will be properties of the highest standard and will attract the maximum existing Fair Rent allowable for that particular type of accommodation. Band D' will represent those properties which are in need of refurbishment and are part of an identified programme for improvement. The rents for these properties will reflect their condition and therefore will be the lowest existing fair rents charged by the Housing Department. As properties are refurbished and improved they will move through the banding structure.

Extensive modelling of the effect of the proposed changes is currently on-going. The maximum payable fair rents on 2,640 properties would increase, with 1,033 of those moving to Band A'. 628 properties would remain on the same rent and some 1,221 properties would see a reduction in the maximum payable fair rent.

The above describes the changes to the rent structure. With regard to the effect on States Tenants, this is slightly more difficult to model. There are 3,560 States Tenants receiving Rent Abatement. These abated tenants will not as a result of the changes be asked to pay more rent. Indeed further modelling is being carried out to establish how many of those abated tenants might actually pay less in rent as a result of the changes.

At present only tenants applying for abatement are obliged to detail their income to the Department, it is therefore difficult to be certain how many of the remaining 1,000 tenants who are currently not receiving abatement will see a reduction in their rent. Equally there can be no certainty about what proportion of any increase in rent any existing tenant, not on abatement, would pay. It is though safe to say that any tenant paying the maximum fair rent presently, whose rent increases significantly as a result of the proposed banding system, would be able to apply for a rent abatement which would be calculated to ensure that they only pay an appropriate proportion of their regarded income, presently this figure is set at 27%. Where modelling suggests that any particular tenant will be subject to a significant increase in their rent, transitional arrangements will be put in place to graduate the increases over a two year period.

A new banding structure will be more efficient to administer, will allow greater modelling of rental income for the future and for the first time ties the rental charged for property to the condition of the individual units in a far more focussed manner.

Naturally this change will require a Ministerial Decision. No such decision will be forthcoming until such time as the modelling is complete, consultation with those affected has taken place and appropriate transitional arrangements have been agreed.

Fair rents have been held at current levels for another 12 months. Rents have therefore not increased for two years in total. These proposals will not affect this position but merely move rents within existing parameters.

6. The Minister for Economic Development will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the abolition of the economic benefit test

Question

1. Will the Minister state whether he supports the decision to abolish the economic benefit test made by the former Economic Development Committee on 13th October2004 (as referred toin a written answertabledon14th February 2006 bytheMinister for Treasury and Resources) and will he set out for members the grounds on which his position is based?
2. in the absence of these economic benefit test minima, what mechanisms, if any, are available to the Minister to prevent non-local principals acquiring or setting up non-finance businesses in the Island which produce little or no tax revenue for the Island while taking up labour and office resources?
3. would the Minister explain whetherthe decision to abolish the economic benefit test supports the Fiscal Strategy to maximise tax returns to fill the tax losses resulting from the 0/10 policy?
4. will the Minister explain in particular how he intends to apply this decision to the fulfilment industry?

Answer

1. The former Economic Development Committee agreed that applications for Regulation of Undertakings and Development approval should be treated on their own merits and that it should have regard to a balance of factors including, but not limited to, the creation of job opportunities and the continued training ofthe local workforce, service diversification and stature.

New businesses would still be required to provide estimates of their likely tax contribution to the Committee when submitting an application.

I support the view of the previous Committee that the strict application of the economic benefit test was not in the interests of the development of the economy. The economic benefit test was generally applicable to the financial services sector. I will continue to have regard to direct taxation estimates. However, other factors as identified in the Regulation of Undertakings and Development policy statement will be taken into account.

In the future I intend to work with the Housing Minister to ensure that, not only is the Regulation of Undertakings and Development Law applied in a manner best calculated to ensure economic growth, but this strategy is run in parallel with the Housing Ministers application of the Housing Law.

2. Any person, be they local or non-local, requires a licence under the Regulation of Undertakings and Development (Jersey) Law, 1973, as amended to commence a trade, business or profession in the Island. In considering applications, I am required, under the Law, to have regard to the needto regulate and manage demand on resources of Jersey and to protect the commercial and financial integrity of Jersey in commercial and financial matters. In addition, also to have regard to the Population and Immigration Policy recommendations adopted by the States in November 1997 and the States Strategic Plan 2005. A policy document sets out the criteria considered in deciding upon applications. Licences are granted either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as appropriate.
3. The important point underlying the need to move to zero ten is not only compliance with international requirements but the reality of increasing tax competition from other similar jurisdictions. Thesechangesweredebatedat length in last year's fiscal strategydebateandweneedtosupporthigh skilled, high salaried jobs tosecureour future prosperity. Going forward,

the Regulations of Undertakings needs to reflect this changing situation. Abolition of the economic benefit test is entirely consistent with the fiscal strategy as we need to assess not only direct corporate tax yield but indirect yield too.

4. It is important to understand that there are differences between the way in which Regulations of Undertakings has beenappliedto different sectors of the economy. The States has expressly approvedpolicies likely to see economic diversification in the economy. The island benefits from high value on line retailing which is satisfied by fulfilment services companies. A policy for the fulfilment sector was producedinAugust 2005 and a revised policy will be issued shortly.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy J.A.MartinofSt.Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding policies in place for the regulation of the fulfilment industry:

Will the Minister state what policies, if any, are  in place for the regulation of the fulfilment industry, whether he intends to introduce new policies, whether consultation has taken place with representatives from the industry over current and proposed policy, and would he also set out the current status of the prepaid VAT (Value Added Tax) registration scheme to facilitate the speedy delivery of fulfilment goods to the UK?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

Following an OXERA (Oxford Economic Research Associates) report commissioned by the Economic Development Committee in 2005, the Committee of the day issued a fulfilment policy in August 2005. The prepayment VAT registration scheme is not within the remit of Economic Development and questions, I am afraid, should be addressed appropriately to the Home Affairs Minister, who has responsibility for Jersey Customs. What I can say is that I will be publishing later this morning a new revised policy in respect of fulfilment and certainly also explaining some administrative decisions that I have been making recently concerning the future of the fulfilment industry.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Would the Minister tell us how many companies are awaiting new licences for the fulfilment industry at the Regulation of Undertakings at this moment?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Deputy is quite right to suspect that there have been a number of licences which have been pending decision. They fall broadly into 2 categories: applications for commencement of a trade, which do require a licence and I have written to all the fulfilment companies and online retailers that were operating in Jersey to require them to put forward a licence; and secondly, applications concerning staff. I cannot give the Deputy exact numbers on the individual applications; they are probably up to 20 in both respects. I have determined a number of them in the last few days.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Would the Minister outline the political pressures as he sees them emanating from the UK?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The pressure has been effectively in 2 particular areas, and there is a group of small businesses in the United Kingdom that are independent retailers that have been concerned about the situation whereby some UK companies were using offshore locations, including Jersey, to effectively serve their UK customers through basically a post box in Jersey. I am on record quite clearly as saying that I do not approve of that kind of activity and I believe that it falls squarely within my responsibilities of administering the Regulation of Undertakings to disallow such activities. On the other hand, there are legitimate online retailers, Jersey companies, properly constituted with proper administrative arrangements here that are perfectly properly competing in the UK. It is that latter group of people that we want to seek to encourage to continue operating. They provide a useful stream of taxation income for the Island. The pressure is, as I say, from the small business retailer, which I have to say I have some sympathy with.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

The policy statement made in August by his predecessors broadly suggested that the then Committee was going to encourage whole-chain companies and discourage third-party service providers. Will the Minister indicate to Members whether this broad policy will be changing?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Broadly speaking, no. I have to say that I have reviewed the decisions made by the former Committee and there were a couple of decisions by the former Committee, which I know the Deputy is probably aware of, which I cannot quite square with that original policy that was set out by the Committee. Of course, the Committee of the day was entitled to make individual decisions on a case-by-case basis. I uphold and agree and have further tightened the policy that was contained in August 2005. Deputy Le Hérissier asked about UK pressure. There is some speculation as to whether or not the UK will take unilateral action concerning this kind of activity in the budget. I very much hope that Jersey - as a well-run place of integrity - that the measures that we have put in place in Jersey will give considerable comfort to the UK Government.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Following on from that, Sir, in the policy it does state that there have been concerns expressed from the UK Treasury and late last year that the Minister was going to meet with officials from the UK Treasury to see if these were actual concerns or just concerns that we thought may exist. Could the Minister confirm whether this meeting has taken place and if the UK Treasury has serious concerns about our actions in the fulfilment industry in Jersey?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think it is fair to say that as a result of the lobbying of the Small Business Association there are concerns at the highest level within the UK Treasury. We have engaged with the UK, as we do (and I have liaised with the Chief Minister's Department on this), to understand what their concerns are and, indeed, we are at one with the UK in terms of Jersey being used as a post box for UK companies selling to their UK clients via Jersey. I seek to use the Regulation of Undertakings to tighten the arrangements that we have in Jersey. I can also advise the Deputy that I have met with my Guernsey counterpart to seek to establish a common Channel Islands position in respect of online retailing. I believe certainly from the conversations I have had with the Minister that we are as one in the Channel Islands.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

It is envisaged that the fulfilment industry is due to expand remarkably in the next 2 years, doubling the number of employees it engages. Does the Minister foresee any problems in the labour market as a result of this?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The fulfilment I actually prefer the words "online retailing." I think that is a much better description of exactly what we are talking about here. The good bits of online retailing - that is whole-chain company retailing - has provided welcome employment opportunities for our local community. I remind the Deputy that it is only locally qualified people under the Regulation of Undertakings (I think with one exception) that are employed in the sector. This is providing

diversity of employment; it is giving students an opportunity to work in their summer and Christmas holidays, et cetera; and it is welcomed, I think, universally. I would see a further expansion. We are talking about a diversified economy for Jersey and I could see that there could be some limited growth within the online retailing sector. But as I would repeat, I have made some decisions in the last few days which are effectively going to be as announced later on this morning, that some companies operating in Jersey that had not hitherto got a licence are being given a 12- month exit route to suspend those activities within the Island.

2. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the process for the appointment of staff in the Communications Unit:

Would the Chief Minister describe the process leading up to the recent appointment of staff in the Communications Unit, state how many candidates there were for the post, and indicate whether the process took account of the skills available in the private sector, in local PR firms and the media?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

The appointment process followed established recruitment procedures. There were 10 applicants, of whom 8 were from local PR firms and the media. There was a strong list of applicants with 5 candidates being short-listed for interview and the Communications Manager was appointed on merit.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Chief Minister outline whether thought was given to a different way of delivering service in that regard; for example, outsourcing part of the service to a private company?

Senator F.H. Walker :

Yes, Sir, it was and it was rejected because (a) it is more expensive; and (b) particularly with the need to co-ordinate with many Ministries and the need to publish to staff regular communication updates on the programme of change - which requires a fulltime presence - that option was not thought favourable.

2. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Could the Chief Minister confirm that the Communications Manager he referred to was the same person who was on a one-year contract with the Communications Unit until recently?

Senator F.H. Walker : Yes, Sir.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding progress on Share Transfer Property Stamp Duty legislation:

On 19th January 2005 the States approved Share Transfer Property: Stamp Duty (P.211/2004) which charged the then Finance and Economics Committee to prepare the necessary legislation for consideration by the Assembly in 2005 to give effect to the proposals. Would the Minister give an update on the progress of the legislation and when it will be presented to the States?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

This legislation is proving to be more complex than I think any of us first thought when we approved it. Nonetheless, my department and I in conjunction with the officers of the Judicial Greffier have put forward some options which would give effect to that proposition. Those options have now been forwarded to the Law Officers' Department for their advice and consideration and, depending on those comments, will go out for external consultation. Unfortunately, due to illness within the Law Officers' Department, a reply to those inquiries, which are quite detailed, is still awaited and until that reply is received I cannot give a firm date on when it might come forward as required.

4. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding connection of properties to tight tank and soakaway drainage systems: Would the Minister advise for each of the last 5 years how many new domestic developments, if any, were approved where the resultant property was to be connected to a tight tank and how many pre-existing domestic properties, if any, were disconnected from septic tanks and soakaways and connected to tight tanks as a result of planning requirements related to the development or extension of those properties?

Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

The department does not keep a specific record of the number of applications which rely on cesspools or tight tank drainage systems and this information is not readily available from the department's systems. However, the Transport and Technical Services Department's tanker service has advised that there are 44 properties connected to tight tanks as a result of development. Up to 2003 there were 27 properties connected to tight tanks and since 2003 a further 17 properties have been connected. It is not possible to establish how many of the 44 properties are new and how many have converted from septic tank soakaway systems to a tight tank. I can, however, confirm that it is planning policy to refuse applications for new dwellings which cannot connect to the public sewer other than in exceptional circumstances. The number of new dwellings approved each year with cesspool drainage is, therefore, relatively small. With regard to applications to extend existing dwellings which rely on septic tank soakaway drainage systems, it is planning policy to seek an improvement to the drainage where the work will result in an increase in the potential occupancy of the dwelling; applications which seek permission for additional bedroom accommodation, for example. Again, the number of such applications is not recorded but is likely to be small. I must stress that this planning policy, which was reaffirmed by the former Environment and Public Services Committee last year, aims to ensure that the Island's ground water and/or public water supplies are not further contaminated by effluent from septic tank soakaway drainage systems. It recognises that the main sewage system does not cover the whole Island and that there are areas which may never be reached by mains drains. It may be unreasonable and undesirable to place a moratorium on any development in those areas and so alternative solutions are used. The department and I remain focused on the States' wider environmental objectives as well as the important health issues surrounding the safe disposal of sewage and protection of the quality of water supplies. In October 2005 supplementary planning guidance was published entitled  Disposal of Foul Sewage and I will quote from it: "The requirement to regularly empty cesspools is not, however, particularly sustainable on an economic

or an environmental perspective."

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Economic Development regarding agreement with Condor Limited:

Would the Minister confirm that the agreement with Condor Limited for the period 1st January 2002 to 31st December 2006 states at paragraph 5.3 that the company will offer equivalent standard car ferry fares and charges to all passengers whether they originate in the Channel Islands or the United Kingdom? If so, would he inform Members whether this agreement is still in force?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I will try and do as well as the Minister for Planning but I am not sure I will. The wording of paragraph 5.3 of the Service Level Agreement in respect of passenger car ferry services between Jersey and the UK is still in force and will remain so until the end of the year. A new Service Level Agreement is to be agreed with Condor and I wrote to them to that effect last week for the period 2007/2008. Now, some people (and I understand this) have queried whether Condor is honouring

the provision of paragraph 5.3. It is the standard car ferry charges that need to be offered to all the Channel Islands in the same way as they are in the UK. There is an additional paragraph in the Service Level Agreement which also requires Condor to respond to market conditions and this does result in different fares being offered to passengers originating in the Channel Islands and the UK. Effectively, standard fares only represent probably - according to estimates I have made with Condor - about 25 per cent of the total tickets. Of course, all the offer fares are by their very nature lower than that. I think that is at the heart of this issue. Yes, standard fares are going to be reciprocated under 5.3 but that is not the whole picture.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

Clearly the fare structure is a bit of a nonsense if the standard fare hardly ever applies. Was it 25 per cent of the time I think I just heard? When the Minister comes to renewing the Service Level Agreement, will he address this matter? Because there are many members of the public in Jersey who are quite upset by the fact that there are extremely reasonable fare structures from the United Kingdom to here, below £40 return, and the same is not offered to us.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

This is, of course, a very difficult area. The standard fare arrangement is not nonsense. It is there to protect for the maximum cost of getting to the UK. It is the ceiling price and that is something which I think was regarded as being important, certainly as a protection. So, it is not nonsense but I am afraid that we are dealing with commercial markets here and Condor themselves, when they are operating in the UK, are basically trying to compete with other destinations. Maybe that is France; maybe that is northern France or southern or some of the other services that they operate. Condor must respond to those market conditions and that is why we see special offers. Those market conditions are often different in Jersey. I understand the concern of the general public in respect of fares and it is something that I am trying to understand. I am certainly trying to understand what the implication of the new fluid pricing model is in respect of Condor's arrangements.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister confirm by his analysis so far that the application of standard fares - predominantly on Channel Islands-originating traffic - has led to a continual decline and that there is a relationship between the 2 facts?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I do not know that that conclusion can be reached at all. I think we have seen a contraction in our traditional tourist market. We all know the stories of the heyday of tourism where British Rail employees got free passage on their services to Jersey. We are in a competitive market and I would need evidence to persuade me to say that it is the standard fare relationship which has seen the decline in the number of passengers. I do not think one could make that analysis. I am happy if the Scrutiny Panel wants to see whether that is true. What is important is to recognise that Condor do give offers. They make offers in order to attract more people to Jersey and they do that by price. That is not unusual in any other sea crossing or any other travel business around the world.

3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

In answer to a written question, Sir, I see that printed versions are available for the northern route. I hope that the Minister will ensure that they are actually widely available because I have had complaints from a number of people that they cannot obtain one. When he does that - hopefully ensuring that that situation continues under the new Service Level Agreement - would he try to arrange some mechanism whereby these other special offer prices which seem to be more frequent than the standard fare are actually printed in the brochure as well?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I would remind the Deputy , of course, that there is no Service Level Agreement - the subject of the next question - in respect of the southern route and I will ask Condor about that particular issue. I would say that I have announced recently that we are going to set up a consumer group for Condor. I want my department to be properly informed about consumer views. I have attended public meetings; I have heard a lot of issues about concerns of passengers of Condor. Deputy Power has made some suggestions that there are hundreds of complaints concerning Condor. I want to see those complaints. I want to understand them. I met with Condor last week and went through their complaints procedures. I will hold them to account for their complaints procedures and the resolution of it. At the moment, my conclusions are that it is a number of specific issues that are causing people concern. Caravans over 4½ tons is one example; oyster farmers is another. But I cannot at the moment reconcile the suggestions of huge numbers of complaints from what I have seen, from feedback I get and from the general public, but the consumer group will help.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister acknowledge that his suggestion that it is the decline in tourism which has injured the northern route is possibly fallacious in the sense that the decline in tourism has impacted quite differently on the southern route where there was until recently a seamless transition to a much more Jersey-based traffic?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Of course the northern and southern routes are completely different by their very nature and I am sure the Deputy has statistics to show that. I want to work with Condor to understand what the States can do for Condor in terms of helping them reduce some of their costs. The issue, for example, of costs is immediately linked to this issue of the second back-up vessel and I want to understand why that back-up vessel is needed. If we need to in the longer term provide more container space so that Condor does not have to send a second ship down to the Channel Islands to pick up the containers that it dropped off in the morning and we can help Condor reduce its own costs, that is the kind of partnership we are talking about. I am determined, with my Assistant Ministers of Harbours and Airport and Economic Development, to understand the issues of Condor and work together in partnership. It is only by understanding issues and attempting to resolve them that we get to the flesh and understanding rather than just this constant sort of positioning between the States and Condor. It is partnership that matters.

5. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

In relation to what the Minister said a few minutes ago about complaints that have been made to me personally about Condor service on the southern route and on the northern route, I would like to confirm to the House that I had a meeting last week with Condor.

The Bailiff :

This does not sound like a supplementary question to me. You are coming to it, I hope?

Deputy S. Power:

I am, yes. I just want to confirm to the House that Condor asked me for the personal details of those complainants. I have contacted those complainants and I will be reverting to the Minister and Condor soon if they give permission to disclose.

The Bailiff :

What is the supplementary question, Deputy ?

Deputy S. Power:

Does he agree? [Laughter]

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am very happy to agree. If another Member of the States is reported in the media saying he has inches high of complaints against Condor, I want to understand that. I understand that there are data protection issues, but I want to understand the nature and the type of those complaints because when I understand them I can hold Condor to account for them. I can ensure that their complaints procedure works and that we understand those issues. I do not want names and addresses, but I want type and details of complaint. It is only by that way that I can help to improve the relationship between Condor and the States and I am determined to do so.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister not agree that his recent answer shows some confusion about how the market works? He surely cannot hold that the market says that the company has to offer low discount fares and at the same time that the high standard fare does not put people off coming to Jersey. Surely he shows some confusion therein about how the market works.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Maybe the Deputy and I can have a conversation about how markets work. The fact is, of course, he is right in saying - and I agree with him - that it is not the standard fare which is going to be the attractive offer which spurs more people to come to Jersey. Of course not, and that is why companies operating in savagely commercial markets must suit and offer special deals in conjunction with tour operators and hotels and all the rest of it. That is what actually drives business growth and I want to make sure that our tourism budget is closely aligned with those service providers, whether they be airlines or ferry operators, so that we encourage as many people as possible to come to our beautiful Island. I think we have made a turning point in both the relationship between Harbours and Airport and tourism.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding formal channels for the education and training needs of the finance industry:

Would the Minister outline what formal channels, if any, exist at a policy level so that the Minister and his department are apprised of the education and training needs of the finance industry?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

The governing body of Highlands College, which is the main provider of further education and training in the Island, provides the main formal link between the finance industry and the Minister and the Department for Education, Sport and Culture. One of the main purposes of the governing body is to advise on policy development and the nature of provision made by the college. A number of leading members of the finance industry are governors. The Chairman is the senior partner of Moore Stephens and a board member of Jersey Finance Limited. The Vice-Chairman is Deputy Director-General of the Financial Services Commission. Other members of the governing body who hold key positions in the finance industry are the retiring Chief Executive of Jersey Finance Limited, the Manager of Banking Regulation with the Financial Services Commission, the Managing Director of UBS Jersey and former Chairman of the Jersey Bankers Association, and the Managing Director of Citibank and a member of the Jersey Bankers Association. In addition, the governing body has a sub-committee, the Jersey Business School Executive, chaired by the Chairman of Governors, which considers finance industry training needs and reports to the main board. The Education, Sport and Culture Department and Highlands College were also members of the steering group of the Economic Development Department's research project into training needs of the finance industry carried out in 2004, and we look forward to working closely with the education and training committee to be established by Jersey Finance Limited, which will provide a further forum for discussing future training policy and training requirements. The finance industry has also been represented on policy reviews undertaken by Education, Sport and Culture. Thus, for example, the retiring member of Jersey Finance Limited was a member of the working group which reviewed the 14-19 curriculum and was also one of the members of the finance industry community consulted during the preparation of the Higher Education Review.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Notwithstanding the eminent people who are involved with the process, would the Minister outline what the contact has been with people such as the director and the assistant directors with the finance industry and whether a Member such as myself could access relevant policy papers that have emanated from meetings?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

Notwithstanding the facts, Sir, that I have just outlined, yes, we have as much contact as possible. I do not wish to say anything to the Deputy , but it would be unusual (if my understanding is correct that the Deputy is actually employed at times by the college) to have access to personal papers. If he is not, any papers that are in the public domain, of course as a States Member he is absolutely entitled to and I will also make any papers that he wishes available to him. We endeavour to be as open as possible and certainly we endeavour to involve the finance industry in our training needs as much as possible, as I outlined, through the involvement of the eminent people involved in the finance industry, in Highlands, and also in all the reviews we have carried out on further and higher education.

2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John :

Would the Minister consider it appropriate to also seek to better inform teaching staff - in particular careers teachers - as to the opportunities that exist for careers in the finance industry and seek to dispel opinion among some teaching staff that students have somehow failed should they choose a career in the finance industry?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I would hope very much, Sir, that the last comment that teachers would think someone has failed if they went into the finance industry is an urban myth rather than reality. In fact, all our careers teachers have close connections with the finance industry and receive training and information on what is on offer in the finance industry. We also hold careers fairs. I think one of the problems that the Deputy might be referring to for why there may be a reluctance of some young people to take up a career in the finance industry is perhaps the comments that have been made in this House and by States Members outside of this House decrying the finance industry on occasions and giving the impression that it is not welcome in Jersey. Well, our message is it is welcome. It provides the majority of Jersey's income. It provides the money for the majority of Jersey's important public services, and we want to be able to provide as many young people as possible to have a good career in it.

3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade :

Given this wonderful panoply of luminaries, all apparently discussing the education aspects of going into the finance industry, I wonder if the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture would like to conduct a review to investigate why the finance industry is still complaining that our students are missing a number of skills in their employment?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

Most industries would want to employ people who are completely prepared for the purpose when they come out of school. Unfortunately, that is not always possible. I am sorry that some people in the finance industry have expressed a view that they would like our pupils to be better prepared for the jobs they have on offer. I heard Deputy Le Hérissier give an interview on the radio this morning on this very subject saying we accepted that education did have another purpose rather than turning out just people to work in any particular industry. We are recognised now as one of the world leaders in the provision of critical skills in our education system, which is working through our current education system, which is designed to provide the very skills that the industry in Jersey have been asking for. Those skills include things such as being able to get on with people, being able to solve problems, being able to work in teams, and certainly the emphasis in our education system at the moment is preparing young people for lifelong learning and providing them with their skills. I very much hope that emphasis, which has been recognised nationally and internationally now as a world leader, will reduce comments in the future and reduce the concerns that people have that perhaps our young people could be better prepared.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister accept that the recent plan for growth in the finance sector has shifted the burden for training from the industry itself to his already very stretched educational budget?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I certainly think there is a great emphasis on our service to provide better training, and we are working very closely with the finance industry and with the Minister for Economic Development and the Council of Ministers to improve that. I would encourage not just the finance industry but every industry to invest in training because it is an investment in their own future. Certainly, we have seen developments in the not distant past, in fact very new developments, where, for example, at Haulieu we are now offering a trust qualification in connection with one of the industry bodies that young people can take at the school, which is an example of exactly how we are providing what the finance industry have asked us to provide. Yes, it is important we work in partnership and that the industries concerned recognise their need to resource the training as well as ours.

5. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

Would the Minister confirm that with the Trident Project a lot of our youngsters are going and experimenting, trying out banking and trust work? Would he also tell us what the finance industry are doing to work with his department? In other words, what training can they offer or are they attempting to work with him?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

The Deputy mentions Trident, which is an excellent example of where young people receive on the job experience in various jobs, including a lot in the finance industry. We also have a Young Enterprise. We also have a number of other projects going on which give young people the opportunity to experience the world of work. I pay credit to the finance industry, many of whose members as I listed from the Highlands College Board of Governors give their time freely to help us and improve our training and give their knowledge and skills to us. We are very grateful for that. We are working very closely with them. We will be working even more closely in future. We are closely involved with them in the 14-19 Review of the curriculum and also in the Higher Education Review. We have recently set up the Cass Business School with talk of setting up a business school on the Waterfront. We are talking about offering more courses at Highlands, but we need to work together to ensure what we are offering is good educationally and good for the industry.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister give an assurance that notwithstanding the excellent  initiatives which are already in existence he will examine the relationships at the highest level within his department and the finance industry to ensure that there is a good 2-way flow of communication and information?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I believe I have shown and demonstrated that there is already an excellent flow, but of course we can always do better and we will examine it again and try to do better. Any suggestions the Deputy has on how it can be further improved will be welcome and received with open arms.

7. The Connétable of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the response of the Parish of St. Helier to the consultation on nursery car provision:

Would the Minister confirm whether he received the response provided by me on behalf of the Parish of St. Helier on 28th October 2005 in response to the consultation process on nursery care provision? If so, would he confirm that the Statement he made at the last meeting that no response had been received was incorrect and inform Members of his response to the concerns raised in this submission?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

The closing date for responses to Investing In Our Future, which was presented to the States on 5th July 2005, was 30th September 2005. Prior to that date, the Department for Education, Sport and Culture received a submission from the St. Helier Parish nurseries and the St. Helier Parish finance departments. This was circulated along with all other responses to the then Education, Sport and Culture Committee members. Subsequently, I am informed that around 28th October 2005 - 28 days after the closing date for submissions - the same paper was resubmitted to the Department of Education, Sport and Culture signed by the Connétable of St. Helier. I am informed the paper contained no additional comments so it was not recirculated. If this is the response the Connétable is referring to, then I can acknowledge its receipt and confirm that I am aware of its contents. I would also like to assure the Constable that the issues raised by the Parish will be taken into consideration along with the other 29 submissions that have been made as we continue to develop and consider the feasibility of the various options outlined in the original report and correspondence.

1. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Notwithstanding the fact that the Minister appears to have received the submission twice, he seems to have avoided answering my question: would he confirm that I and my team did, in fact, respond to the consultation process and, therefore, his comment at the last meeting was inaccurate?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

If I was the Constable I would not have asked this question. I can confirm (and I have a copy of it here) that on 30th July 2005 we had comments to be made to Education, Sport and Culture by the Parish nurseries and Parish finance department to our consultation document. There is no indication in this document of any input of a political nature whatsoever or any indication that the Constable was involved. As I said, that was received in time, within the consultation period. Twenty-eight days after the close of the consultation period, the same document, but this time signed by the Constable of St. Helier, was resubmitted to my department. I say if this is the response that the Constable is referring to, then I can acknowledge its receipt out of time and confirm that I am aware of its contents.

2. The Connétable of St. Helier :

I am sorry to press the point, Sir, but for this Minister "sorry" does appear to be the hardest word. Does he not accept that the Parish nurseries and, indeed, the finance department of the Parish of St. Helier come under my direct control and the fact that he received a submission twice does not remove the fact that the Parish of St. Helier did, indeed, respond in the consultation period and, therefore, his comments at the last meeting were inaccurate?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I totally confirm, Sir, that the Parish nurseries and the Parish finance department, which are part of the Parish of St. Helier made comments on Investing In Our Future. Until 28 days after the closing date, there was no indication that this was a direct political document. If the Constable wishes to go through with me the document submitted by the finance department and the Parish nurseries, it certainly appears to me that it is a different document to what I would expect to be submitted by a Member of this Assembly.

8. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding funding of the Economic Growth Plan:

Table 1 of the Economic Growth Plan (P.38/2005) gives a total funding requirement of £2.7 million. Will the Minister inform Members whether the entire plan has his support, whether the total funding has been agreed by the Minister for Treasury and Resources, and if not, what elements have been agreed, and in particular whether funding has been allocated to the plan for finance and to Jersey Finance Limited?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I support the Economic Growth Plan in its entirety. All elements of the Economic Growth Plan have my full support and it is important to state that there, of course, needs to be much more work on the individual aspects within the Economic Growth Plan of P.38. There has been some funding allocated for 2006 sufficient to get on with the implementation of the early plan. Of course, further funding in the years 2007 and 2008 will be the subject of the business plan which is to be lodged by the Chief Minister on behalf of the Council of Ministers in the next few days. I hope I do not break any confidences here, but I can say that economic growth has figured high on the agenda of the Council of Ministers but I have not been successful in getting all of those issues funded. Therefore, if I am going to fund the Economic Growth Plan completely, I need to look to my other departments to see whether or not other issues have higher priority. In respect of the plan for finance and given the importance of this sector to the economy, the 2006 budget has a specific allocation of £850,000 for Jersey Finance. The 3-year budget includes further additional increases to Jersey Finance's budget, but that will be as a result of the outcome of the next strategic plan and the resource allocation this year. I would say in conclusion the Members of this Assembly all have their own desires for improving and increasing services to the public. I support that, but one has to make sure that economic growth provides enough taxation receipts to deliver that. If I am given money for economic growth, I will use that judiciously; I will use that in a targeted way to deliver it, but an investment is required and I support all of the measures that were there.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister not consider that after - I believe it is - 5 years Jersey Finance Limited should be financing itself?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

No, I do not agree that Jersey Finance needs to be funded itself. In fact, Jersey Finance is one of the few trade promotion vehicles which is actually part-funded by the industry. The industry put in - I think - of the region of £300,000 per annum and, of course, I will continue to press the industry to put as much money as possible into Jersey Finance. But if we are to get the results of targeting specific sectors (for example, hedge funds and business in the Middle East) then we need to put in that investment in order to achieve that result. I am quite pleased with the way that Jersey Finance continues to operate. There are some changes in respect of the senior management and I am engaged in detailed discussions with them and my Assistant Minister - the Constable of St. Lawrence - is joining their board.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Was it not at the outset envisaged that after 5 years Jersey Finance Limited would, in fact, be self- financing?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

That was never the case. I hear confirmation by the Chief Minister who was, of course, instrumental in setting up Jersey Finance. I think one has to be cognisant of the fact that Jersey Finance has achieved significant results. Members will have been aware last week that we had a presentation by Jersey Finance and we learnt of the arrival of a new hedge fund business in Jersey directly as a result of the work of Jersey Finance. In addition, the trip out to the Middle East - which is going to be the third one - we can link that directly to new business, good business; profitable business for Jersey industry. We must invest in Jersey Finance in order to achieve that. Of course I will hold Jersey Finance accountable for the appropriate spending of their budget.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Talking about hedge funds, can Jersey Telecoms sustain any more hedge funds in Jersey?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

An excellent question and going to the heart of the importance of a number of services within the Island. I think that there are issues and certainly I have been in communication with the Chairman of Jersey Telecoms and I have a meeting with them next week. I am determined to ensure that there is sufficient telecoms capability within the Island to serve the finance industry. I think we have learnt just how important it is that there are fast, efficient and cost beneficial services in the Island. It is the liberalisation of the telecommunications market which is designed to achieve just that.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

In the Minister's busy schedule, will he take the time to provide me with details of which parts of the Economic Growth Plan have been funded and which parts have not, and in particular a breakdown of what funding for what schemes has been applied to Jersey Finance Limited?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Of course I am very happy to do that. As the Chairman of the Scrutiny Panel, he will no doubt be scrutinising my budget in great detail and, of course, I am happy to confirm exactly what aspects are being funded this year. Of course, next year's funding requirements will be subject to States decisions later on in the year in terms of the strategic plan and resource allocation process.

9. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the Service Level Agreement with ferry operators for the southbound route:

In his answer to an urgent oral question on 13th December 2005 regarding the Service Level Agreements for ferry operators, the Minister stated that there is some sort of agreement on the southbound route. Would the Minister give Members details of this agreement?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I think this is the first time, Sir, that we are getting a question about the written record, which is obviously exactly what it should be: holding Ministers to account for what they say and an excellent job that the official record is. On 13th September 2005 (and I have read it) in answer to Deputy Power's question - would I confirm that there is no Service Level Agreement on the southern route - I replied I thought he was right. Subsequently I have ascertained that he was right. I mentioned in a reply to Deputy Power's query that there was some sort of arrangement on the southern route. There I had in mind the arrangements that exist between Jersey Harbours and the companies serving on the route. Both companies - Emeraude and Condor - were given permission under licensing arrangements in Jersey Harbour to use the ramp. Those arrangements exist until the end of 2006. That is not a full Service Level Agreement, but it is a full Service Level Agreement which we are attempting to put in place for all of the routes over the next few weeks.

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Would the Minister update the House on the current situation regarding Emeraude?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Today is the deadline which was set for news of Emeraude and, as I have been quoted in the media correctly, I have been engaging with the board of Sogestran to understand what their plans are. I was advised of a media report in French newspapers of a decision - apparently by Sogestran - to come on to the route with a passenger-only vessel. I am awaiting confirmation of those arrangements. I would repeat to the Assembly I was originally told that Emeraude were not actually seeking an exclusive arrangement on the southern route. It appears that that might not be the case any more and that - I have to say - presents us with particular issues and particular difficulties. As far as Condor is concerned, I have to and it is right that we put in place a Service Level Agreement to secure their services for next year and the year after. It is wrong, I think, that there is no Service Level Agreement to deliver precisely the kind of issues that Members raised in the answers a few moments ago. I will be putting in place a Service Level Agreement for Condor and it will not be exclusive.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The Minister speaks in optimistic terms albeit while walking on treacherous ground. Could the Minister identify, Sir, what his contingency plans are if Emeraude does not come back, as seems now likely, and secondly, Sir, if Condor is not able to carry the kind of traffic he believes will arise in the summer?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Interesting use of the word treacherous'. I do not think they are treacherous. I think it is a difficult portfolio of which there are a number of competing issues which we have to understand the details of and get to grips with and make some proper decisions. In respect of the southern route, there is a clear capacity issue particularly in respect of passengers generally across the season which needs to be dealt with, and car-carrying capacity at certain dates over the summer period. I have been in discussions with both Condor and Emeraude to deal with that capacity issue. It may well be that Emeraude's response is to come back with a passenger-only vessel. I am hopeful that Condor will definitely put additional capacity on the route if they do not do that. Certainly Condor I have to say that they have been extremely co-operative with my discussions with them. I want to encourage them to put additional circulations on those key dates in the summer when there are capacity issues. I think it is by engagement, continuing to understand what the issues are, that we can solve this issue, but I do wish that Sogestran would make up their mind.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox:

I wonder if the Minister would confirm that his discussions will include the areas where there are difficulties at the moment, namely the shellfish industry with its timings and the capacity and capability of getting their products to the continent especially; and also some sporting groups that cannot seem to be booking in bulk in advance, which seems to be causing some difficulty as well? I think £35,000 was mentioned.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I will take those in reverse order. It is very difficult for Condor to know what to do this year when they do not know what the situation is with Sogestran, which is why I think it is in everybody's interest, having set a deadline, for Emeraude and Sogestran to say what their plans are. Because otherwise, if we continue to work on a week-by-week basis and not understand what their plans are, then basically I cannot ensure working with Condor that additional capacity is.. Deputy Fox is probably quite right that there are periods throughout the summer period when there is insufficient passenger space for sports groups, et cetera. With the additional capacity by Condor, I hope, and perhaps by Emeraude, that sort of problem will be dealt with. We are doing a lot of hard work in trying to solve this problem. In respect of oyster farmers, they present a particular issue. One set of oyster farmers invested in a particular kind of trailer that could only go to Emeraude. Now, Emeraude pulled out unexpectedly. We are going to help to re-equip the oyster farmers with appropriate financial safeguards to ensure that they can use Condor for the export of their produce. I am meeting the other group this afternoon. We are determined to help them because I think that oyster farming is something that we should support - diversification of agriculture. There is one other problem which I have identified, which is large caravans. There are a number of people who have bought caravans (I think it is over 4½ tons) that could be carried on Emeraude but cannot be carried on Condor. That is a problem and I do not have a solution to that, but we will continue discussions. I cannot force Emeraude to buy a new £35 million boat just to solve that problem. We are going to try and do what we can.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will the Minister ensure that any terms and conditions attached to a Service Level Agreement are not so onerous as to threaten the viability of the route but ensure that sufficient monitoring is set up to make sure that the Service Level Agreement is adhered to?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I would say that I have no evidence whatsoever that the Service Level Agreement that Condor has had in place on the northern-bound route has not been (a) monitored and (b) met in its entirety. There is, I think, some confusion about what the Service Level Agreement is and what it is not. For example, in this issue to do with standard fares it says that there shall be reciprocated fares but, of course, that is not the commercial reality in respect of lower fares. I have written to Condor, as I must do, with a deadline of 1st March, explaining to them what we will be planning for the period 2007 and 2008. I have the approval of the Council of Ministers to do that, to put in place a new Service Level Agreement for that period until we reach 1st January 2009, when all the Channel Island routes will be effectively coming to an end with the arrangements. I also want to put in place a Service Level Agreement on the southern-bound route and I am alert to and listening to what sort of conditions should be put on that. I have to say, Condor is being extremely co- operative and helpful and - I think - determined to solve the issues that are there. I congratulate them for the activities that they have done with me in the last few days.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

If I may, my answer? Will he ensure ..?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I cannot say what I am to ensure. We are going to try and put as much as we can in the Service Level Agreement, to give people the security and all the backup issues, et cetera. The issue perhaps I did not answer was whether or not there are conditions which are overly onerous. I cannot see how they would be affecting the southern-bound route. There are issues about the back up vessel on the northern-bound route. That is something we are examining, but I do not think there is a short-term fix on that. Certainly, it is the back up vessel requirement which effectively is the barrier to any other operator coming in on the route - not that there would be - and I think there are sensitivities about that particular issue. We will work with Condor to try and find solutions.

2.9.6 Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I think most of us in the House are old enough to remember the old Sealink routes. I have fond memories of the old Caesarea, but as we know, they were sponsored by British Rail. Does the Minister not think that maybe in the future there may be a case for States financial intervention?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am not going to be the Minister for Intervention Affairs at Economic Development. I believe in market forces. I do believe, however, that government has a role to ensure that the operators have appropriate conditions where there is one particular monopoly to ensure that customers are safeguarded. The arrival of the Competition Law is a welcome arrival on our statute book. It gives protection where there is a dominant position and gives consumers protection on an ongoing basis, I think, and we are increasingly seeing protection. I do not believe that there is a case for State subsidy for our sea routes. What we need to do is to make sure that the conditions that we impose upon our ferry services are such that they can be profitable. It is only by having profitable sea routes that we end the problems of the come-and-go ferry arrangements of the last few years. That is why partnership is important. We recognise Condor has served this Island for many years. I am determined to ensure that they, I hope, continue to serve this Island but with the necessary safeguards as far as fares are concerned. But please, no States subsidy.

10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding road works at Le Dicq:

In relation to road works at Le Dicq, would the Minister explain the apparent contradiction between his statement that motorists could continue via Beach Road and the fact that "Road Closed" notices are found as far back as La Mare? Would he explain why the road was to be closed for 3 weeks for drainage works followed by 3 weeks for resurfacing instead of the works being undertaken concurrently?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): First of all, may I reiterate my apologies through the Deputy to his constituents and other members of the public who have been inconvenienced by these particular road works. In response to the first part of his question, Beach Road was not signed as a diversion route as it is contrary to established Island traffic management best practice to use small Parish-owned residential access roads for high volume diversionary routes. This practice is to ensure the safety of pedestrians and residents and to reduce nuisance to parishioners. Notwithstanding this and in the light of the serious traffic disruption that occurred during the first morning's rush hour, the Minister decided that an exception should be made to this established practice and announced this via a press release. Signage never indicated that Beach Road was closed. It indicated that the Coast Road was closed at Beach Road. This confusion is regretted and the traffic disruption was much improved following my decision to encourage traffic to use Beach Road, although I regret the inconvenience to Beach Road residents. In respect of the second part of the Deputy 's Question, late in 2005 it became apparent that urgent maintenance works were required to a pipe serving Le Dicq pumping station. These pipes carry 15 tons of raw sewage per minute to Bellozanne, servicing the entire east of the Island, and a failure could have resulted in a serious pollution incident. It was decided that in order to minimise disruption to the public the drainage works would be carried out in parallel with the resurfacing works, thus in effect work was carried out concurrently.