States Meeting Transcript - 15/05/2007

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 15th MAY 2007

CONTENTS:

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

1. Written Questions........................................................................6

1. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE REGARDING THE INCLUSION OF UNELECTED MEMBERS OF THE STATES IN REFORM PROPOSALS:........6
2. DEPUTY J.B. FOX OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING SUCCESSION PLANNING FOR SENIOR POSTS WITHIN THE PUBLIC SECTOR:7
3. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING A RESPONSE TO THE SCRUTINY REPORT SR1/2007 RELATING TO THE CLOSURE OF WARDS AT OVERDALE:............................................................................8
4. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES REGARDING THE ELECTORAL REGISTER: .....8
5. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE APPOINTMENT OF CANDIDATES TO SENIOR PUBLIC SECTOR POSTS:........9
6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING EFFICIENCY SAVINGS AND HIS DEPARTMENT'S MAINTENANCE BUDGET:............................................................9

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................12

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding the criteria for receiving rent subsidy and rent rebate under the new Income Support system: .........................................................................................12 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security): ......................................12

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................12
2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................12
3. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:......................................................13 Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:..........................................................13
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................13
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................14
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................14
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................15

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding proposals to introduce baby' (j) category licences:............................................................15 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ............................................16

2.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................16 Deputy J.A. Martin:..........................................................................16

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding progress made at Jersey Airport to resolve cash flow issues and to achieve staff savings:........16 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................16 Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................16

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ...............................................17
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................17
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................17
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding measures to achieve greater voter turnout:....................................18 Connétable D.F. Gray ofSt. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee): .........................................................................................18

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................19
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................19
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................19
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................19
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................20

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding departmental policies for developing staff to assume senior positions:................................20 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................20

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................21
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................21
4. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:....................................................21
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................21
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................22
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................22
8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................22
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................22

6. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the Port of St. Helier stevedoring contract:...................................23 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................23 Deputy A.J.H. Maclean (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.......23

1. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................23
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23
3. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................24

7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Housing regarding the possible introduction of a systemof rent control following the introduction of Income Support:..............24 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ............................................24

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................24
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................24
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................25

4. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................25
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................25

3. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources..26

1. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ..........................................................26 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ..........................26

2. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................26

3.2.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................26

3. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................26

3.3.1 Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................27

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................27

3.4.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................27

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27

3.5.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................28

3.6.1 Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................28

7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................28
8. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier : ......................................................29

3.8.1 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................29

9. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................29
10. Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................29
11. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John : ........................................................29

3.11.1 The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................30

4. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Chief Minister...........................30

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................30 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................30

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................30
   2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................31
   3. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................31
   4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
   5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32

4.5.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32

6. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................32
7. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................32
8. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................33
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................33
10. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................33
11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................33
12. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................34

13. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................34
14. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................34 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................34

5. Urgent Question - The Minister for Planning and Environment......................35

The Bailiff :...................................................................................35

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................35

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................35
   2. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................35
   3. Connétable G.W. Fisher of St. Lawrence:..............................................36

5.3.1 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................36

4. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................36

5.4.1 The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................37

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................37
6. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................37
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37 The Deputy of St. Martin:....................................................................37
8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................37

9. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................38
10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................38 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................38

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................38

6. The Bailiff :.............................................................................38

1. The Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding electoral reform....................................................................................38

The Connétable of St. Clement:..............................................................38

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................39
2. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................39
3. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................39
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................39
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................39
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................40
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................41
8. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier:...................................................41
9. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................41
10. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:....................................................41 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: .....................................................................41

2. The Chief Minister regarding development of the new Jersey Brand .................42

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................42

1. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................42
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................42
3. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................43
4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................43
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................43
6. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................43
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................44
8. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................44

9. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................44

3. The Chairman of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel regarding the use of question time by Scrutiny.........................................................................44

Deputy G.P. Southern (Chairman of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel):..................44

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................45 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................45
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................46
3. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................46
4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................46
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................46
6. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................47

7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................47

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................47

7. The Draft Employment (Minimum Wage) (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Regulations 200- ......................................................................................47

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................47 7.1 Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................47

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

2. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................48
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................49
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................49
5. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................50 Deputy G.P. Southern :........................................................................50
6. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................50
7. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................51 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................53

8. Draft Loi (200-) (Amendment No. 4) sur les teneures en fidéicommis et l'incorporation d'associations (P.50/2007)..............................................53

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................53 Senator F.H. Walker :.........................................................................53 8.1 Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen (Assistant Minister, Chief Minister's Department - rapporteur):.............................................................................53 Deputy P.J.D Ryan (Chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):....................54

9. Jersey Financial Services Commission: Re-Appointment of Commissioners and Chairman (P.58/2007)...................................................................54

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................54 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................55 [Debate proceeded in camera]................................................................55

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................57

9. The Deputy Bailiff :.....................................................................57

1. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee): .........................................................................................57
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................57

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................57
2. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................58 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: .....................................................................58 The Connétable of St. Ouen:..................................................................58
3. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................58
4. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:.......................................................58

3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................59

1. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................59
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................59

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................59 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................59

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE REGARDING THE INCLUSION OF UNELECTED MEMBERS OF THE STATES IN REFORM PROPOSALS:

Question

1. Has the Committee considered the position ofthe unelected members ofthe States as part of the reform proposals and, if so, on how many occasions?
2. What possible proposals for change, if any, have been discussed by the Committee?
3. Have any background papers relating to the position of the un-elected members ofthe States been prepared and if so when will these papers be circulated to members for consultation?

Answer

1. The present Privileges and Procedures Committee has only considered the position of the unelected members of the States on one occasion since it was appointed in December 2005. On that occasion the Committee agreed that the position ofthe unelected members was a matter that the Committee didnotwishtoaddressatthepresenttimeasthe Committee's priority is totrytofindanacceptable solution onthereformofthe composition and election oftheStatesin relation to the elected members.

The Committee's view is that any attempt to consider the position of the unelected members during the on-going process of seeking to reform the overall composition of the Assembly would merely complicate an already difficult issue when there is no evidence of any significant public or political pressure to change the current rôle of these members. The Committee is therefore concentrating its efforts on the position of the elected members and, notwithstanding the outcome of the debates at the last meeting, will be publishing a further report on that matter in the near future.

Any investigation into the position of the unelected members, namely the Bailiff , His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor, the Attorney General, the Solicitor General and the Dean, would raise very fundamental issues relating to the Island's constitution and relationship with the Crown. All of these offices have a long historical significance for Jersey and even small changes to part of the rôle of these members could have wide ramifications. Although PPC has not ruled out the possible need for a review in due course any such review would need to be undertaken with great care and could not be undertaken by the Committee alone. It is probable that the most appropriate way to undertake a review would be establish some form of independent review body with appropriately qualified members.

2. and (c)

As stated above there are no current proposals relating to the unelected members and, as a result, no papers have been prepared.

2. DEPUTY J.B. FOX OF ST.  HELIER  OF THE  CHIEF MINISTER  REGARDING SUCCESSION PLANNING FOR SENIOR POSTS WITHIN THE PUBLIC SECTOR: Question

Would the Chief Minister advise the Assembly -

1. how many departmental heads andother senior postshave been appointed fromoutsideof the Island during the last ten years?
2. whether improved succession planning and training measures have been implemented to enhance opportunities for local candidates and increase the Island's ability to provide its own locally trained workforce, of equal professional calibre, skills and experience that would otherwise be obtained through recruitment from outside the Island?

Answer

1. This information will take some timeto prepare, as departments will need to check through their records covering an extended period, and I regretthat it has not been possible tosupply this information in the time available. I will provide this information at the next States sitting.
2. I ampleasedtoadvisethe Deputy that several important steps have been taken to bring about improved succession planning by way oftraining and development initiatives, which in turn, will enhance opportunities for local candidates. These include the following measures -

• A Modern Manager Programme', launched in 2006, which has been specifically designed to provide middle managers across the States of Jersey with a wide range of management skills that will equip them to work successfully in today's States organisation but will also assist them to respond successfully to challenges in the future. This is an 18- month programme with accreditation to a professional management qualification. Almost one hundred managers have embarked on the Programme since its introduction, and it is already proving effective in developing skills and competencies and providing an opportunity for a wide range of managers to work together and share knowledge and experience. The first programme commenced in September 2006 and a second in March 2007, and further programmes will be run over the next couple of years.
• A Future Leaders' programme is to be launched later this year. This programme has been designed for a small group of up to 12 high potential people from across the organisation, who have the potential to aspire to take on senior manager and Chief Officer roles in the future. The Programme will focus on developing skills in leadership, strategic and business planning, performance management etc. A suitable provider for this Programme is currently being identified from the top ranking business schools in the UK.
• Succession planning:  The States organisation is committed to succession planning. In support of this, it is working to enhance performance management and provide a wide range of learning and development opportunities, including secondment, coaching, mentoring from experienced senior managers, and providing opportunities for working in multi- disciplinary groups on projects when there is a clearly-identified business need. In developing the skills and experience of staff in the public sector, it hopes to minimise recruitment from outside the Island, as well as motivating staff to develop their careers and perform to their full potential.

The aim of the succession planning policy is to develop our workforce so that we have a pool of potential successors who are in a strong position to apply for senior positions within the public service when they arise.

3. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING A RESPONSE TO THE SCRUTINY REPORT SR1/2007 RELATING TO THE CLOSURE OF WARDS AT OVERDALE:

Question

When will the Minister's response to the Scrutiny Report entitled Overdale - the closure of Leoville and McKinstry wards' be published?

Answer

The Minister is currently recovering from surgery and will lodge his response to the Overdale report following his period of recuperation.

4. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES REGARDING THE ELECTORAL REGISTER: Question

Is the Comité satisfied that the current electoral register is a rolling register' and, if not, will the Comité be proposing any reforms in conjunction with the Privileges and Procedures Committee?

Answer

The electoral register is prepared in accordance with the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002 and the Comité is satisfied that it is a 3-year rolling register.

Article 6(1) provides that a register should be prepared "for 1st July 2006 and for 1st July in every third year after that ".

A new register is therefore started every third year and, for the 3-year period, is a rolling register with names added and deleted as a person becomes, or ceases to be, entitled to have his/her name included on the electoral register.

A person is entitled on a particular day to have his name included on the electoral register for an electoral district if on that day the person is –

1. at least 18 years old;
2. is ordinarily resident in that district and
3. has been -

1. ordinarily resident in Jersey for the period of at least 2 years up to and including that day; or

2. ordinarily resident in Jersey for a period of at least 6 months up to and including that day, as well as having been ordinarily resident in Jersey at any time for an additional period of, or for additional periods that total, at least 5 years.

The information is updated throughout the year as information is received that a person has reached 18 years of age, moved address or satisfies the residence criteria.

An annual check of the information is also undertaken. A statement is sent each year to every unit of dwelling accommodation setting out the names of the persons, if any, whose names are included on the registers. These statements must be checked, corrected if necessary, signed and returned to the Connétable of the parish. The registers are updated with this information. A letter will be sent to every person who does not return a statement, or subsequent reminders, advising that their name will be omitted from the register if they are no longer ordinarily resident in the district.

5. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE APPOINTMENT OF CANDIDATES TO SENIOR PUBLIC SECTOR POSTS: Question

Would the Chief Minister inform members whether all senior positions in the public sector are open to both local and U.K. candidates?

Answer

There is a strong preference for making local appointments to senior positions, but where the post requires specialist experience and it is considered that a suitable appointment may not be made from local applicants then an advertisement may also be placed outside the Island.

In developing the workforce, the States has made a commitment to succession planning, training and development, and further information about these initiatives is given in my answer to Deputy Ben Fox, which has also been tabled for 15th May.

6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING EFFICIENCY SAVINGS AND HIS DEPARTMENT'S MAINTENANCE BUDGET:

Question

1. Will the Minister inform members what is meant by favourable variance in staff costs' contained in his written answer on 1st May 2007?
2. Will the minister explain why he has further reduced his maintenance budget by £190,000 when, by his own admission, much of the housing stock remains in need of repair?

Answer

1. Favourable variance in staff costs' are savings accrued as a result of staff vacancies. When staff leave the Department, the recruitment of a replacement can take some time. During this period salary payments cease, which results in a saving.

2. 80 per cent ofthestock is not in need of repair. The reduction in expenditure of £190,000 relates to a decision made in 2005 for implementation in 2006,aspartof required service cuts. It was a one-off' payment. Since that time the Housing Department has brought forward proposals in the Social Housing Property Plan to address a number of issues, including maintenance funding.

7. DEPUTY G.P.SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING EFFICIENCY SAVINGS:

Question

1. Will the Minister explain what is meant by calculating staff vacancy factors and reallocating' contained in hisanswerof1stMay2007 relating tocutsrequiredto meet the£698,000costof staff pay awards?
2. Will he inform members what non staff costs have been reduced in each primary and secondary school and which areas had already been subject to the £350,000 efficiency savings?
3. Can the Minister inform members ofthe average life of a paperback compared to hardback book in library use and advise the Assembly whetherthe replacement of hardback books with paperbacks will increase replacement costs in the future?

Answer

1. The full sentence from which the quotation is taken reads: "This was achieved by reducing non staff costs, calculating staff vacancy factors and reallocating to meet the pay award shortfall". To achieve savings, staff changeswere reviewed and the effect of keeping some posts vacant for a longer period than would normally be the case was calculated. Where it was possible to keep posts unoccupied, budgets were reduced to reflect the saving and the associated funding used to reduce the shortfall in the budget resulting from the pay award. "Reallocating" refers to the transfer of budgets between budget headings inorderto meet theexpectedcostsof the pay award.
2. The Department does not yet have a breakdown of what measures schools will adopt to minimise the impact ofthepay awards on their year end position. Schools operate under a Delegated Financial Management which allows them to carry forward surpluses and deficits from one yeartothenextand some areusingthis facility to manage theshortfallover a longer period of time.

The efficiency savings have primarily been met by withholding non-staff inflation and have

affected all areas of the service. Some areas have also taken specific cuts as reported in the response to the question tabled for Tuesday 1st May.

3. In recent years, it has been the library policy to adjust the balance of paperback to hardback purchases. This approach was approvedaspartofthe Library Improvement Plan published in 2005.

This trend is in response to a range of factors:

• Customer demand: paperbacks are very popular with many readers; they are attractive, light and easy to carry.

• Some titles are published in paperback only.
• Paperbacks are cheaper.

However, bestselling titles continue to be purchased in hardback and additional copies are purchased when the paperback edition is published.

The main change in the last two years has been the purchase of a greater proportion of adult fiction in paperback format. This allows the Library Service to offer a wide range of titles, including multiple copies of very popular titles, and constantly to refresh the shelf stock.

• The average price of hardback fiction purchases in the last 12 months was £12.62 compared to the average paperback price of £5.23.
• The  average  price  of  hardback  non  fiction  purchases  in  the  last  12  months  was  £20.45 compared to the average paperback price of £10.04.

Average life of library books

The average life of each library book depends on a range of factors and, for the bulk of expenditure, is most usefully measured in terms of number of loans, rather than years:

• The minimum expectation for all titles purchased for the library is between 20 – 30 loans. Many popular titles, both fiction and non fiction, exceed this.
• Examination of a random sample of popular paperbacks indicates that a paperback novel can easily achieve in excess of 20 loans. At an average price of £5.23, this represents very good for value for money.
• Some very popular fiction titles achieve many loans in a short time and are replaced within 18 months, whether paperback or hardback.
• Some non fiction titles will be removed from the shelves after two or three years with fewer loans because a new edition has been published.
• Key works, classics and local material are purchased with the intention of them being retained in stock and permanently available. This may be in hardback or paperback format  depending  on  availability  and  the  anticipated  number  of  loans.   For  these purposes rebinding is possible for both paperback and hardback editions and represents good value.

Replacement costs.

Book stock for the library largely consists of the purchase of new titles rather than replacement of existing titles. It is not expected that the move towards the purchase of a greater number of paperbacks will increase the replacement costs in future years.

Replacement titles are purchased as required but these do not form a significant proportion of annual expenditure.

The Library Service aims to maintain a current, clean, and attractive stock on the open shelves.

Books are withdrawn from the shelves as part of a regular programme of stock maintenance according to criteria set out in the library stock management procedures.

In addition to the condition, criteria for withdrawal from the open shelves include the currency of information for non fiction titles and popularity of the author/title for fiction titles.

Some material withdrawn from the open shelves is retained in a reserve stock' area. These titles can be identified on the library catalogue and are available on request.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding the criteria for receiving rent subsidy and rent rebate under the new Income Support system:

May I ask the Minister for Social Security if the Minister would inform Members what the criteria for receiving payments to replace rent subsidy and rent rebate will be under the new Low Income Support system and at what stage will existing claimants who might no longer be eligible be informed before the current system ends?

Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):

When the States approved the main Income Support Law we agreed to 3 basic criteria: residence, work and income. The detail of these eligibility criteria will be debated by the States in September and I will be proposing that claimants should be resident for 5 years; adults in the household must work, if possible; and the income of the household is below the levels set by the components in the Regulations. These criteria differ from the existing rental subsidy system. The existing claimants can only be informed of the effects on their current benefits once the Regulations and Orders detailing the systems are approved by the States. Existing claimants will be written to individually soon after the debate and will also be informed of any additional payments which may protect their existing benefits.

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Regulations have to come before the Assembly, I understand, but in trying to flag this issue - which is a major issue in relation to the ability for Islanders to afford the accommodation in the future - is the Minister able to answer whether he is saying that there will no longer be a requirement for those people to be 21 years of age and that there will only be a consideration that they have been resident for 5 years before that eligibility of rent abatement will fall into their overall assessment? May I also tag on to that question, although it is hard to say precisely, surely the department must have an indication at this time as to how many people will be losing rent rebate and what impact that will be having?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Several questions rolled up into the one there. The States will be debating the Regulations and it will not be until that time that we will be able to definitely say what exactly the criteria will be because amendments may come from other Members within the House. As I said in my opening response, I will be proposing that people will be able to claim Income Support after being in the Island for 5 years. But with regard to the remaining parts of the Regulations, we are looking at that still and working closely with other people and we will be lodging the Regulations in July. It will be for the States to decide on whether they approve of those Regulations or not. We will only be able to inform the public and claimants with certainty once that debate has been had.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

I am glad that the Minister has clarified that. Could he also clarify - because there seems to be some confusion; not on my part; I think I understand - 5 years for claiming any benefit, but if you leave the Island in 5 years, whether you are Jersey born, you have Jersey children, you have been here maybe 30 years, if you leave for more than 5 years, is it not true, Sir, that the claimant will then have to do another 5 years before they have any help? That includes any form of rent rebate which they do get now. I do know families, Sir, that have to leave with full intentions of staying away. Some catastrophe happens. They want to come back to their Island and family, and they are given help, maybe through housing and rebate. This is going to cease under the new system. It may be discretionary, but under the Law it is going to cease.

Senator P.F. Routier:

The principles we have been working on - that people need to be on the Island and having contributed for the previous 5 years - is something which is being consulted upon, and with the public, quite widely in the building up of these Regulations. We are proposing to put in a provision that if people do leave the Island for a period, for a year for instance, they would need to be back in a year before they could claim Income Support again. But the Deputy does highlight a problem when she does suggest that once somebody has left for 5 years they would have to be back on the Island for 5 years to claim rent rebate. That is what is being proposed and it will be a decision this House will have to confirm whether they approve of that or not, but that certainly is the recommendation that has come from the consultation which we have had from a number of people.

3. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour :

Could I ask the Minister if he can confirm that residents will qualify for rent subsidy after 5 years residency?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The whole of Income Support is not just about rent subsidy. Income Support covers various components, whether it be rental, living allowances, carers allowance and all the various components. The proposal we are putting forward is that people be in the Island for 5 years and they would be able to claim Income Support package, and that would include all of the components. It is recognised that the housing benefit currently is only claimable from 12 years when people have qualifications. A calculation has been made with the help of the Statistics Unit and others to ensure that if we do bring this forward - which we will be proposing - that it is affordable. We recognise from the calculations we have done, it will be affordable because the majority of the people who are in that bracket from 12 years to 5 years are either working within the Island currently and are coping with their circumstances. We believe that it is only right and proper that people who have contributed to this Island for at least 5 years do have the ability to be supported if they do fall on hard times. It is a matter of principle, really. How long should people be on the Island before they can claim?

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Will the Minister inform Members of the real reasons underlying his delay in bringing forward Income Support Regulations and state whether that delay has anything to do with problems in processing the 26-page Income Support application forms in time for August? Secondly, will he inform Members today when he will produce for the Income Support Sub-Panel definitive Regulations that we can seriously scrutinise? At the moment, even with the delay, he is unlikely to achieve proper scrutiny.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think, Deputy , that is a little too far away from the original subject matter of the question. Deputy Le Hérissier.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

With the Minister having been passing the parcel for 2 major budgets of the States - supplementation and rent rebate - would he not acknowledge, Sir, that the real problem is he is facing enormous budgetary pressure and, having expanded the eligibility criteria, he is going to have to spread the money much more thinly and, as a result, he will have to reduce the amount of rent rebate given to each individual?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The Deputy has unfortunately got the wrong impression of what Income Support is going to do. What it is going to do is to redirect funds which are currently being paid to people on higher incomes. It will provide perhaps even a greater level of support to people on lower incomes. That is what is going to happen. The whole principle of Income Support is that the budget - it talks about budget pressures - is known. We have the existing budgets from the Housing Department, from the Parish Welfare. The States are already paying for Parish Welfare; our social security benefits; all those benefits are all being rolled into one budget and the system which is coming forward was from a clean sheet of paper, a new system which is being brought forward which will ensure that those who are most in need will receive the support they need. It will, as we all know, redirect funds which have currently been identified. But this House has been complaining about the generosity of the housing benefit system and to some people who are at the top end of the earnings scale, and that will be redirected. It will also redirect money for people who receive Disabled Transport Allowance. That will happen. That is what I have been asked to do by this House and I would be disappointed if Members are now going to say: "Do not redirect Disabled Transport Allowance and do not redirect generosity in the housing benefit." I hope that Members will, when we come forward with the exact proposition, be able to support it.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Just a supplementary, Sir, if I may. Could the Minister tell us then, Sir, how does he intend to reduce the apparent inflationary impact of the rent rebate system?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The Deputy does not seem to understand what Income Support is going to do. The rentals are going to be charged by landlords. Landlords will be wanting to charge whatever rent they can but the Income Support system will have to support people to what the Income Support system can afford. That will be the break. We will be working on a similar system to the fair rental system which has been established and we will have to monitor that very carefully. The Income Support system will only be able to pay the amount of rent that it can afford. It will not be able to react to the demands of landlords. We will have to ensure that the rents that we pay - the subsidies we give - are what we can afford.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am glad to come in there, Sir. When the Minister accuses other Deputies and Members of the House that they do not understand Income Support, Sir, it rests on the Minister's head. I have been asking him as Chairman of the Sub-Panel to advertise this clearly for members of the public, let alone Members of this Chamber. If Members of the Chamber do not know what is going to be laid before them and quite clearly fundamental changes, how are members of the public? When will the Minister start advertising this in plain English and to take leadership of this new fundamental change? Secondly, Sir, on the inflation

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think only one question.

Senator P.F. Routier:

I really thank the Deputy for that question because I would like the opportunity to confirm what is going to happen. The timetable, as I announced last Friday - it was after a meeting with the Council of Ministers - we agreed that it would be very useful to put back the introduction to early 2008, in January. That will be the introduction of Income Support. We recognise it is important to communicate with people and that is what we will be doing in this timescale. The view that I have - and it is shared by other Ministers - is that we should make full use of this time and that is

exactly what we will do. So, I will be lodging Regulations which will be shared with Scrutiny as soon as we possibly can. It will be lodged in July for a debate in September, and existing claimants will obviously be notified straight after that debate. There will be about 3 months before the payments will be made in January. There is sufficient time there to communicate with not only States Members but the public and existing claimants, and it is going to be the Deputy is shaking her head, but I believe that that timescale is appropriate and we are very fortunate because the original timescale was set because of the introduction of G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) in January. That is why we now have the time to enable us to communicate with everybody in a longer period, and that is what we are going to do. I believe the timescale we have now set is going to be appropriate and we will be able to bring forward Income Support in a smooth and orderly fashion.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Final question, Deputy Le Claire.

7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is difficult to get a final question when there are so many questions. As succinctly as I can put it, people in Jersey who are receiving rent rebates are considerably concerned that they will fall away from that subsidy for their high rental responsibilities. Can the Minister, therefore, begin a process of assuring us and them that they will be looked after and, in particular, can he tell us today what he envisages as the maximum level of income a family can receive before it is entitled to low income support?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Two things there, Sir: people who are receiving existing benefits who will be assessed under the new system of receiving a lower benefit, the States have already agreed and put £20 million aside to protect those people in a transition payment. They will be protected for a number of years, which this House will decide when we decide on the Regulations and transition amounts. They will be protected. They are not going to have money taken away from them overnight. It will be over a phased period and they will be informed of that as soon as this House has decided on the transition arrangements which will be coming for debate here. The Deputy asks about the maximum amount of income people will need to have to qualify for rent rebate and rent subsidy. Again, he is missing the point of what Income Support will do. Income Support will top-up people's income up to a level

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

That was not my question. My question was what is the maximum amount of money a family will be able to receive before it will be qualified for low income support?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Income Support will not work that way, unfortunately. Income Support will assess people's needs or will assess their living needs, their housing needs, their care needs; all the various components which make up Income Support. If their own income does not match that, we will top it up, that is how the system will work. It is not the reverse of what the Deputy is saying. It is a totally different way of looking at supporting people. This is fully explained in the Income Support Law which the States have already approved, so I am a bit disappointed that the Deputy has not grasped that point.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding proposals to introduce baby' (j) category licences:

Would the Minister advise Members whether he has been made aware of proposals by representatives of the finance sector regarding the introduction of intermediate or so-called "baby (j)" category licences and, if so, what his understanding of such proposals is?

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

I have not been made aware of any such proposal nor request by representatives of the finance industry.

2.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :

That is very interesting because representatives of Jersey Finance are discussing with members of the finance sector, on very familiar terms, questions like would proposals to introduce an intermediary licence - the so-called "baby (j)" category - help your business?

The Deputy Bailiff :

What is your question, Deputy ?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

How come the Minister is unaware of the proposed changes to (j) categories for which he is responsible?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I have been made unaware because the finance industry has not approached me and once they do so then I am sure I will consider any proposal that comes forward before me. They have not approached me, so I cannot comment.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I did have a supplementary on basic (j)s, or is that too far?

The Deputy Bailiff :

No, it is very hard to see how any supplementaries could arise out of the questions and answers which are given so far. So, we come next to a question which Deputy Southern will ask the Minister for Economic Development.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding progress made at Jersey Airport to resolve cash flow issues and to achieve staff savings:

[Aside] Will the Minister inform Members what progress has been made at Jersey Airport to convert States funding into a loan scheme to resolve cash flow issues and to achieve the £1.65 million savings in staff?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

Can I ask my Assistant Minister Deputy Mclean to be rapporteur for this item as he has official responsibility for the harbours and airports?

The Deputy Bailiff : Very well. Deputy ?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development -

rapporteur):

I am pleased to report that there has been progress regarding the matter of converting States belowground funding into a loan. The intention is that the loan will fund capital works for the replacement and refurbishment of essential infrastructure. The airport is proposing that the funding of the £2.84 million per annum previously agreed by the States for belowground works is used to meet the annual payment on a loan. This loan would allow the airport to meet its other significant capital commitments without the trading fund falling into deficit. Constructive discussions are currently ongoing with the Treasury as to the mechanism and basis upon which such a loan could be established. The airport believes that it is essential that the loan is established during this financial year as it is already front-funding the belowground works, such as the recently completed north apron. The Treasury is aware of the urgency of the matter.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Would the Assistant Minister kindly answer the second half of the question: what about staffing cuts?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

The loan would be for essential capital expenditure only and would not be used for revenue issues. The future direction strategy that I announced last November lays the framework for broad and necessary changes at the airport to make it more efficient and financially viable. Part of that strategy considers staff savings. As previously stated, any staff savings will be achieved within the States human resources policies and, as described in the strategy, be undertaken solely by a voluntary basis.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

I wonder if the Assistant Minister would some time in the near future make available to Members this loan strategy so we are aware of what the Island might be looking forwards to in the future.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

The loan was agreed - the belowground works were agreed - by the States in 2002 under P.198/2002. I think that was fairly clear. In terms of the strategy of the airport, the airport currently has 2 loans outstanding: one for the departures hall and one for the alpha taxiway. The intention is that the interest on the agreed belowground works would be used to support the loan purely for essential capital infrastructure works. But the final details I am more than happy to make available in due course for the Deputy .

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I am a bit reluctant to ask because the Minister previously was quite right; I have not grasped what the issues are. I have not grasped the issue on this either, I am afraid. Could I ask who is funding the loans and where the loans are being sought from for funding? Are they being sought from within the States themselves? I have not grasped this and I do not know whether or not we are looking outside into the private sector.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

As I was saying a moment ago, the States agreed in 2002 to provide the airport with £2.84 million per year. This agreement is renewable annually. It is attached to the 3-year capital programme and the intention is rather than to add the £2.84 million per year, it is more sensible to capitalise into a loan. There is approximately £50-60 million of essential infrastructure work needed at the airport. A loan is a far more competitive and sensible way in which to fund such works. The funding itself would be sought from the most competitive source.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Would surely not the most competitive source be the States' own funds themselves, as we can offer a zero-rated loan payable back from perhaps a strategic reserve? I am sure we do not want to end up in the same position that the Opera House finds  itself in: having to service an extremely expensive loan.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

That is part of the ongoing discussions as to where the most competitive place to get the loan from is, and of course the Treasury Minister will have a great deal to say, I am sure, on the matter. We want it to be the most competitive obviously for the airport and for the States as a whole.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will the Assistant Minister inform Members whether such a major decision will come back to the floor of the States before being carried out? Secondly, when will he report to the States on what areas of staffing at the airport are being considered for any cuts?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

As far as the funding is concerned, the funding has already been agreed as belowground works. If this is transferred into a loan, there is no need, as far as I am aware, to come back to the States in order to seek further assurances. It is a matter that has already been discussed. I am advised by the airport management that specific consideration of staff savings is under active review as I speak and that draft recommendations will be available during the third quarter of this year.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

A supplementary, if I may, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister saying that all decisions have been made previously and that there is no need to bring this matter to the House? Surely there is about to be a change in that the £2.84 million which has been agreed will be now used to fund a substantial loan. Is that not the case, and should that not come back to this House?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

I have to say that I am slightly disappointed with Deputy Southern . Very recently we had cause to engage with the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel. We arranged for Vector to come over to the Island at great expense. We had the Chief Executive of Economic Development. We had the Airport Director and the Finance Director. We gave a presentation to the Economic  Affairs Scrutiny Panel with regard to all these matters, and sadly Deputy Southern was unavailable to be at that particular presentation. Many of these matters were discussed and covered and I really feel that if he had been available we could have covered it at that particular point and certainly his Scrutiny Panel Members are well aware of the position as it stands.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

If I may; it is a final supplementary. Nonetheless, the Assistant Minister has not answered my questions and the fact is that the notes that I have from that meeting are vague and these are follow- up questions to clarify what was stated at that meeting. Just to ask the question: will this major change in funding come back to this House?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

The agreed £2.84 million for belowground works has already been agreed. It is annually renewable and I think that probably answers the Deputy 's question.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding measures to achieve greater voter turnout:

What measures, if any, does the Committee intend to promote to achieve greater voter turnout?

Connétable D.F. Gray of St. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures

Committee):

Deputy Le Hérissier is very aware that as a former President of P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) there is no magic formula that will increase voter turnout. The present Committee is nevertheless committed to look at measures that might achieve that objective. We have already

stated in our first consultative paper - P.97/2006 - that we were extremely concerned with the current low turnout in elections for the States. It was felt that the general election of all States Members on one day would, over a relatively short period, raise awareness and interest. The previous Committee did run a campaign, firstly to encourage registration, and immediately afterwards to encourage those who had registered to vote. Although this did achieve an increase in those registered which also saw more people going to cast their vote, it did not increase the percentage of the electorate voting. I would hope that P.P.C. would run a similar campaign next year with better results. The former Committee also made it easier to cast a vote by post and it is our intention to improve this further when we lodge a proposition later this year. Online voting has been suggested in the past and it might be a way forward in the future. The system has been introduced in the U.K. (United Kingdom) but doubts have been raised over security and the possibility of fraud. It is possibly too soon to go along this path but one that should be kept under review. I would like to see greater voter turnout but I am not convinced that this can be achieved by tinkering. What is needed is a major issue or issues that engage the public and make them determined to impose their will on the Assembly by voting in Members who support them. Fortunately that is outside the Committee's remit.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Chairman acknowledge that reform is needed of the rolling register which seems to be rolling to an end at the end of every year as opposed to rolling ever onwards as was, I thought, the original intention?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I think that really is a question - because that is not really in our province - to the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s.

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Would the Chairman agree with me that there are very clear concerns about abuse potentially with postal voting and not only on-line retailing? Will he commit to bringing this to this Assembly to further strengthen safeguards against postal voting? Would he also consider 2 other things and that is

The Deputy Bailiff :

Let him just deal with one question.

The Connétable of St. Clement :

Yes, I would agree that it is essential that postal voting is safeguarded and that it is properly conducted.

3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Secondly, Sir, would he agree with me also that one thing that might be considered in terms of engaging the public and informing them of their right to vote would be the issuing of a poll card prior to each Senatorial election and each Deputorial election, giving a clear statement of where they can vote, what they can vote for and what times for voting stations, et cetera?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

Yes, I fully support that, Sir. I think a polling card is an essential part of the election process.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Chairman not agree that the maintenance of an accurate register is of vital importance to all electoral matters on the Island?

The Connétable of St. Clement : Yes, I do agree, Sir.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The Chairman said that he did not want to tinker and he wanted, I presume, to bring a much livelier political life. Is one of the proposals he is looking at - and they now seem to be flooding in by the day - the direct election of the Chief Minister as a way of focusing attention upon policy and clear policy differences? Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Clement :

No, the Committee is not considering the direct election by the electorate of the Chief Minister.

6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am delighted to hear the Chairman agreeing on polling cards. Would he also agree with me on the requirement potentially also of all candidates to issue a statement of the reasons why they wish to seek election - and that to be publicly funded by P.P.C. or this Assembly - in terms of communicating what candidates' policies are in turn that people may be informed about their choice?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

The Committee is certainly considering a pre-postal distribution of leaflets from each candidate.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding departmental policies for developing staff to assume senior positions:

Would the Minister outline the policies that are in place within Home Affairs for developing staff to assume senior positions?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

All operational services within Home Affairs have staff developments in place so that staff can become eligible for senior positions. Individual services have different training and development needs. Moreover, ours are small specialist unitary services so consequently factors such as the age profile of senior staff and resourcing assume greater significance when assessing what can be achieved internally. But the general policies across Home Affairs can be summarised as follows: local recruitment systems for those entering our services; locally-based promotion selection and training to develop staff for more senior ranks and managerial positions; participation in management and leadership training provided by the States such as the new modern manager programme, and external courses such as N.P.Q. (National Professional Qualifications) and the U.K. command staff training. Secondments to other services in other jurisdictions, particularly police constabularies of Devon and the fire and rescue service. Identification of early potential of our staff through performance review and appraisal systems so that individual staff development plans are produced. My department, Sir, continues to encourage and support local development along the lines described so that we have a pool of potential successors in a strong position to apply for senior positions as and when they arise. Should Members prefer to have some detailed information about specific staff development programmes, Sir, I am happy to provide these by email.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given the excellent array of programmes which the Minister has outlined, does she not think it strange that there has to be a recourse on several occasions to outside recruitment? Could she identify why there is this recourse? Is that because these programmes are, in fact, not working?

Senator W. Kinnard:

They are working very well. One of the recent significant posts was that of the superintendent in the police force, where we originally had a U.K. incumbent in the position. We held a local assessment centre with 3 local candidates with an independent assessor from the U.K. on the panel and a local appointment was made. So, I do believe that these procedures are working, Sir.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister explain then, given these very strong policies, has it been the custom, for example, in organisations like the police to go down, for example, to the sergeant level where one would have thought there were numerous and some very good candidates to recruit from outside the Island? Could she identify whether that has occurred?

Senator W. Kinnard:

No, it has not, Sir, but I have mentioned that in a small unitary service that we have in the Island, there are occasionally difficulties at certain levels of different staff development, and we have implemented a lot of new procedures and policies within Home Affairs to avoid those kind of bottlenecks that are occurring in future. But inevitably in any small specialist service you are always going to have one or 2 pressure points, but as to that Deputy 's specific question, no, that is not the case.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Going on from that last question, the police in the U.K. have a staff college at Bramshill which specialise in advanced training for senior officers and succession planning. Perhaps the Minister could advise me whether that college is still being used and how recently have candidates been attending that college?

Senator W. Kinnard:

If the Deputy is referring to the initial training scheme that he mentioned to me in the coffee room recently, I explained that the local training is very, very successful in Jersey for the new recruits. But at the higher levels, of course, we do have our officers going off to the staff training colleges. We have progression to the most senior ranks, of course, through the senior command training course at the police staff college and we have 2 officers at the moment who are in the preliminary stages of working towards being able to make an application to the senior command course. Of course, Sir, there are other ways in which we support officers with wider U.K. experience through secondments to other police forces and, indeed, through leadership and training development programmes which are run between ourselves and also the Home Office.

4. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter :

Could the Minister inform the House the membership of the panel who recently made the appointment for the new fire chief, please?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Yes, I can, Sir. I am just checking my notes. In fact it was Mr. Mike Liston representing the Appointments Commission, the Chief Officer of Home Affairs, the Senior Human Resources Manager of Home Affairs, and the Deputy Chief Fire Officer of the Devon Fire and Rescue Service who was present for professional input.

5. Deputy J.A. Martin:

My memory might be wrong. Could the Minister confirm a few months ago the Chief of Police was asked to stay on for another 3 years? I think at the time it was reported so this would give time to train up a very excellent local candidate. Is this a foregone conclusion and is it so that we will have a local chief of police in 3 years' time?

Senator W. Kinnard:

The hope, Sir, is that that will be the case, but of course we have to be mindful of the fact that we need to prepare our candidates locally to be in a position to compete strongly with any other candidates, and I think that that is as far as one can go. It is a matter of course for the appointments panel of the day to choose the best candidate. We must ensure, though, that we have local people who can compete on an equal basis, and that indeed is what we work towards.

6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Could I ask the Minister for the Home Affairs Department whether or not she actively takes part in these appointments, as the Minister for Health does when he interviews people, I believe? Is there any political oversight into these appointments?

Senator W. Kinnard:

It depends on the level of the appointment. In the case of second tier appointments which are not corporate management board level or chief officer level, then it would be very unusual to have a politician involved. It tends to be only at the chief officer level.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given the array of programmes the Minister has outlined, did she ask the question of why no local candidate, given the wonderful systems in place, was available to step into the fire chief's role?

Senator W. Kinnard:

There were local candidates who did compete for the role but were not, unfortunately, successful on the day.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

May I ask a supplementary because it was leading from the train of thought that has been going?

The Deputy Bailiff :

One more from you, Deputy , and then a final one from Deputy Le Hérissier.

8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Minister gave to us the details of who was in attendance, I believe, for the appointment of the fire chief; at least I think that is what was said. I just wondered as she has now stated that normally there would not be oversight at a secondary level, was there oversight at that level when that appointment was made?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I was not on the panel because, of course, it is the level below my Chief Officer of Home Affairs.

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister outline the process - is there a process, for example, given the considerable dedication to succession planning we have heard - where initially the local field is considered and if a person is not available or not suitable from the local field, then the broader recruitment is undertaken? Because if the broader recruitment occurs at the same time, it is quite clear that most people locally are never going to succeed.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I disagree absolutely that the idea that if there  is a broader  level of recruiting that the local candidate is unlikely to succeed. I think that is a philosophy of despair and I think we have some excellent people in our public service. But indeed when they go on secondments elsewhere I get the word back that they are absolutely excellent candidates and very well done for what we do in terms of providing the skills and training that we do provide for our officers in the Island. On occasion I believe there have been 2-stage processes, but advice was taken on this appointment and the selection process, as we know, is a very long one and if it had to be repeated more than once, it is likely that if there had been an unsuccessful process the first time around that we would not have been able to appoint a candidate by the time of the retirement of the current chief fire officer. That is why advice was taken on the matter.

6. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the Port of St. Helier stevedoring contract:

Would the Minister explain the reasons for putting the port of St. Helier stevedoring contract out to tender, and outline the ramifications to the infrastructure of the port should the contract be awarded to a different operator?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development): May I once again pass the baton to my Assistant Minister?

The Deputy Bailiff : Yes.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):

In order to comply with the Competition Law, the J.C.R.A. (Jersey Competition Regulatory Authority) advised Jersey Harbours that the current stevedoring contract for the Port of St. Helier, which expires on 30th September 2007, should be put out to competitive tender. Jersey Harbours have, therefore, advertised both locally and nationally for expressions of interest for stevedoring services for the port and will be following a tender process concluding with a new licence which will take effect on 1st October 2007. The deadline for expressions of interest is this Friday, 18th May 2007. The current licence for stevedoring services, although not exclusive, has in practice been solely operated by George Troy & Sons who have served the Island with great commitment for many years. I, therefore, both expect and look forward to them submitting a competitive tender for the new licence. The tender award process will ensure the smooth transfer of service should a new operator successfully tender. This will ensure that the needs of the port's customers will be protected and will not result in any negative ramifications for the infrastructure of the port. The new licence will be awarded on commercial terms and in accordance with best port working practices.

1. The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister agree, Sir, that should there be any change in usage of the existing labour force, early negotiations are paramount so that we avoid the messy fire-fighting type of confrontation that we had a fortnight ago with the harbour maintenance engineers?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

Yes, I would thoroughly agree with the Constable and I have to say that we have, from a very early stage, been fully engaging with George Troy & Sons in order to ensure a very transparent and clear process throughout. I should also add that the occasion that occurred recently with the industrial action did not involve in any shape or form any staff from George Troy & Sons. They were not involved at all.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:

The Minister has said that it has gone out nationally and in the Island for expressions of interest. He also said that the date for these expressions to end was this Friday. Could he inform the House, Sir, how many people have shown expressions of interest? How many are local and how many are from outside the Island? Obviously I do not want the names; just the numbers.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

The Deputy will understand, Sir, that the expressions of interest at this stage are highly confidential. What I can say is there have been a number of expressions, although because the closing date has not been reached yet, they have not been opened so I cannot, I am afraid, give any further details. But we have had a number of expressions of interest.

3. Senator J.L. Perchard:

The Assistant Minister informed the Assembly a moment ago that the current relationship with the stevedores is not exclusive, implying that an alternative provider could work in the current regime. Is it his intention to allocate an exclusive contract to a new provider?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

That, Sir, will be part of the tendering process negotiations, but it is highly likely that an exclusive arrangement will be offered for the key areas of the port, for example, the New North Quay and the Elizabeth Harbour area. But, as I say, it is really part of the commercial negotiations that will be undertaken as part of the tender process.

7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Housing regarding the possible introduction of a system of rent control following the introduction of Income Support:

Would the Minister inform Members whether he is considering introducing a system of rent control following the introduction of Income Support and, if so, would he support a system similar to that adopted by Guernsey and other jurisdictions?

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

The Housing Department will continue with a fair rent system up to and until the low income scheme and proposals are implemented. By then this Assembly of Members will have been able to input on the review of social housing which has been carried out by the Cambridge Centre for Housing and Planning Research. This will start in June and will go out as a Green Paper for consultation for all. Only then, when this is complete, will we be able to identify our rent structures and I suspect at this present time any rents will be at market rents and not at 10 or 20 per cent below as at present.

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I am very pleased to hear that the Members of the Assembly will be able to feed into this consultation which is going to be extremely significant for the future of Jersey. Will the considerations cover the private sector as well as the public sector?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

No, Sir. What we are planning to carry out is a review of social housing which is the role of the Housing Department, housing trust subsidies and all relation to that but not involving itself in the private sector.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I was going to direct this to the Minister of Social Security but I think it falls probably better with the Minister of Housing. We have heard a great deal about the new rent rebate system being paid to people of 5 years residency. Obviously these people, Sir, who will be living in unqualified accommodation is there any intention from the Housing Department to vet any of this accommodation? Because we could be paying out hundreds of pounds for absolute squalor that we allow people to live in. I agree that we need to pay the money but who is going to vet the accommodation that the taxpayer is subsidising? To say that it is not going to be inflationary and done no research, Sir, I think the Minister needs to explain himself.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The issue is it will be over my dead body that we are going to start employing staff looking and checking our private unqualified accommodation. We have slimmed down, as required by this Assembly and by the Council of Ministers, our operation now to a point where it is so lean that it is causing us difficulties and having some time lags in processing applications and otherwise. I have no intention, Sir, of getting involved with further staffing in either rental deposits or other things in the private sector, in the unqualified sector. For the sake of clarity, I have some great concerns over this 5 year thing. I know that my fellow Minister will probably kick me to death afterwards but I have some grave concerns.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Just a supplementary to that. I now have more concerns, Sir, because the Minister of Housing has just said over his dead body we go out and look at the places people are living in that the States are subsidising. So, Sir, I do have a concern and if he is not going to do the job could he suggest who does do it because it does need doing, Sir.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

That is not my role, Sir. The role that I have got at the present time up until the low income scheme comes into being is that eventually the Housing Department will be the provider of social housing. I would suspect, Sir, that in time with the issues of the housing laws being wrapped-up in the population migration policy that there will be probably no need for a Housing Minister in time to come. But that is a view that I perhaps hold not too deeply [Laughter]  but I know there are Members in this Assembly that feel there should be a political head in social housing in Jersey, but at the end of the day, Sir, the role of the Housing Department will solely end up being a provider of social housing and will not be involved in housing laws and any of the other issues.

4. Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the Housing Department already inspect lodging houses and the registration and regulation of those which includes inspection, they already do that?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, Sir, but it has been causing us so much difficulty that that has been slimmed-down considerably. The issue is that eventually we would rather hope that there would be no need for inspecting registered, qualified lodging accommodation but I cannot see that happening for a while yet.

5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Minister expressed some grave concerns in relation to the 5-year law and it is not the first time that he has mentioned these grave concerns and looked to his Minister on the opposite bench to let him know that he was expecting a kick under the table. Can the Minister explain to us exactly what those grave concerns are? And, if not now, will he shortly bring to the Assembly those grave concerns so that we can understand them?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I think that in all fairness I have still got a fair amount of discussion to take place with the Social Security Minister, and I would not like to say anything further than that at the moment. We have arranged to meet to have further discussions but the issues are and my gut feeling is that should we go down the road of applying a housing component for those being in the Island for 60 months will, in my view, run away with public funding. I know that the Minister will say it is down to fairness, but at the end of the day I think there is a disparity between 5 years and 10 or 12 years. I believe that we could really be taken for a huge cost like the mobility allowances and other allowances that have gone out of control.

The Deputy Bailiff :

That concludes question time. We now come to questions to Ministers without notice.

3. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources

1. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

Would the Minister advise what is the States' policy for the payment of local suppliers for goods and services supplied? Because I believe historically the payment used to be within 7 working days, but I believe this must have changed because I am being informed by local companies that they are waiting 5 or more weeks for payment, which is a long time when they have to pay their bills weekly.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I have to admit I do not know the exact policy in terms of payment of suppliers. Normally I thought it would have been in the month following submission of their monthly statements. I agree that it is one of our targets to ensure that suppliers are promptly paid. I am not aware of any undue delays, but if the Deputy would like to give me chapter and verse I would be happy to look into it because I share her concerns that if suppliers are being unfairly delayed in payment by us it damages their prospects.

Deputy J.J. Huet:

I thank the Minister and I will do so because, as I say, I am talking about a lot of money for small people.

2. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

Will the Minister give an update on the progress of the share transfer legislation and is there any chance of the legislation coming to the House before the summer recess and, if not, why not?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The legislation is due to come in in the Budget in December but there will in June or July be a consultation process where the draft Law will be available. It is, as I think I tried to make clear, a complicated Law and it is only right that it should go out for consultation discussion before it comes to this House for final approval. So that discussion consultation will take place in the summer in order that I can keep to the timetable of this House of having the Law in place by the end of the year.

3.2.1 The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I just ask a supplementary? Could I ask the Minister then, if indeed the legislation does come to the House and is approved, will it have to go to Privy Council before it can then become adopted in the Island whereby possibly another 6-months delay will be incurred?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Any taxation legislation normally comes into force immediately by virtue of an Acte Operatoire, so if it is passed in the Budget in December it can come into force immediately thereafter.

3. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Will the Minister inform the Assembly of the current position of the States of Jersey with regards to the proposed sale of the former Jersey College for Girls school?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The position, Sir, is that the sale is on hold. A Scrutiny Panel has been looking at the process and activities leading up to this sale. That Panel's report is, I believe, imminent. Following their report there will be recommendations of which I shall take account and then proceed accordingly. So at the moment no further progress has been made pending receipt of that report.

3.3.1 Senator J.L. Perchard:

Supplementary: will the Minister consider re-advertising the property?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I have all options open at the moment, Sir. I am doing nothing until I see the conclusions to the recommendations of that report.

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

I would like to ask the Minister a question relating to the old La Pouquelaye School. How does the Minister reconcile his desire to squeeze every last drop of money out of the school for States coffers with the stated principles of the social policy framework that was presented to States Members yesterday which talks about promoting independence, and I quote: "To develop and co- ordinate support services that helps neighbourhoods and communities build social capital."

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The Deputy misrepresents me. I am not anxious to squeeze every last drop out of every asset the States owns. Only yesterday I agreed to the sale of a property for social housing purposes at less than market value. What I am anxious to do is to ensure that the States gets reasonable value out of its assets. We have an asset there which is owned on behalf of the public which is there and potentially not being fully utilised at the moment which the proceeds of that could be used for other very necessary States projects. What I aim to do is to ensure that, recognising the objectives of the social policy and the needs of the community in La Pouquelaye, a deal could be arranged with the Parish of St. Helier in order that a fair price can be obtained. I believe the suggested price was unfair to the Island just as much as a full asking price might be unfair to the residents of St. Helier . With some goodwill on both sides - and I certainly have the goodwill on my side - I am going to discuss with the Constable tomorrow and his officers to see if we cannot reach an amicable settlement in the traditional way of a Jersey compromise.