States Meeting Transcript - 16/01/2007

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 16th JANUARY 2007

QUESTIONS......................................................................................9

1. Written Questions........................................................................9

1. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING INTERNET GAMBLING: ...........................9
2. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE SITING OF TELEPHONE MASTS AND BASE UNITS:..........................................................................10
3. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING DANGEROUS BREEDS OF DOGS:.........12
4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE "PLANNING FOR HOMES 2006" REPORT (R.94/2006):.......12
5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING CO-ORDINATION BETWEEN DEPARTMENTS ON THE POPULATION REGISTER: ...........................................................13
6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE 2007 MINIMUM WAGE:............................14
7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE POTENTIAL SELL-OFF OF JERSEY TELECOM:............................................................................17

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................18

1. Senator J.L. Perchard of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding school bus services seats:...............................................................18 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):...18

1. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................18
2. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................18
3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................18
4. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:.......................................................19
5. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................19
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................19
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................20

2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the costs of internal investigations by the States of Jersey Police:..........................20

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................20
2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................20
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................21

3. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding "pre-camp" provision for the 2012 London Olympics:.......................21 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................21

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding numbers of dysfunctional parents in theIsland:..............................21 Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.............................21

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................22
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22
3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................22
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23
5. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................23
6. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................23
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................24
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................24

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding grants for Sea Cadets and Air Cadets:.............................................................24 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs)........................................24

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre of St. Lawrence : .............................................24
2. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................25
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................25
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................25
   6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the proposed sale of the former Sunshine Hotel site:....................................26 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ..........................26 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources):..................26

1. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................26
2. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................26
3. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................27
4. Deputy of St. Ouen:....................................................................27
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................27
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27
7. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ..........................................................27
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................28

10. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................28
11. Deputy A. Breckon: .................................................................28

7. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the allocationof digital television frequencies to Jersey:..............................................29

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................30
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ...............................................30
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................30
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................30
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................30
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
8. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................31
9. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:...............................................31
10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................31

8. Senator J.L. Perchard of the Chairman of the Environment Scrutiny Panel regarding the forthcoming Scrutiny Panel visit to Vienna:............................................31 Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman of the Environment Scrutiny Panel): ........31

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32

4. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................32
5. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................33
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................33
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................33
8. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................34
   9. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding measures in place to deal with enquiries arising fromIncome Support application forms:....................34 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security): ......................................34

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................35
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................36
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36

2.10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding public sector pay targets: .......37 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................37

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37
3. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : ............................................37
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................38

11. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the closure of wards at Overdale Hospital:..................................................38

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................39
2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................39

12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding repairs to the St. James Centre and Vicarage:...........................................39 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources):..................39

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................40
2. Deputy F.J. Hill, B.E.M. of St. Martin:..............................................40
3. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :....................................................40
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................40
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................41

3. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Planning and Environment ...........................................................................................41

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................42 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):...........................42

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................42
   2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John : ........................................................42

3.2.1 Deputy of St. John:.....................................................................43

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43

4. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................44
5. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................44
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................44
7. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................44
8. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................44
9. Deputy of St. John:.....................................................................45

4. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Chief Minister...........................45

1. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................45
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................45

3. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier : ......................................................46
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................46
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................46

4.5.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

6. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................47
7. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................47
8. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................47

4.8.1 Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................48

9. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................48
10. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48

4.10.1 Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................48

11. Deputy of St. John:.....................................................................49

4.11.1 Deputy of St. John:..................................................................49

12. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................49

5. The Chief Minister regarding staff pay negotiations...................................49

5.1 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................49

6. The Minister for Housing regarding the Social Housing Property Plan 2007–2016 ..51

6.1 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ......................................51

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................51
2. Deputy of St. Martin:...................................................................52
3. Deputy of St. Martin:...................................................................52
4. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................52
5. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................53

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................53 Senator F.H. Walker :.........................................................................53 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................53

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................53 BUSINESS RESUMED..........................................................................53

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY (continued..)........53

7. The President of the Chairmen's Committee regarding the report on Overdale: The Closure of Leoville and McKinstry Ward s (S.R.1/2007) ...............................53

7.1 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (President of the Chairmen's Committee):......................53

1. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................54
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................54
3. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................54
4. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................55
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................55
6. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................55
7. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................55

8. The Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the Machinery of Government Review..................................................................56

8.1 Connétable D.F. Gray of St. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee): ............................................................................56

8.1.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................56

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................57

9. Draft States of Jersey (Amendment No. 3) Law 200- (P.126/2006)....................57

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................57

1. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................57

1. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................57
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................57
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................58
4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................58
5. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................58 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................58 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................60

2. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee): .........................................................................................60

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................61
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................61
3. Deputy J. B. Fox:.......................................................................62
4. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................62
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................62
6. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................63
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................64 Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:............................................65
8. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................65
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................66
10. Deputy G.W.J. De Faye: ............................................................66
11. Senator M.E. Vibert :................................................................67
12. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................68
13. Deputy P.N. Troy :...................................................................68
14. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................69
15. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:....................................................69
16. Deputy of St. John:..................................................................69
17. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:.................................................................70
18. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................70
19. The Connétable of St. Clement:......................................................70 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................71

10. Draft Employment (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.134/06)................72

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................72 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security): ......................................72 Deputy P.N. Troy (Assistant Minister for Social Security):...................................72 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................73 Deputy A. Breckon (Chairman of the Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel):.73 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................73

11. Draft Highway Encroachments (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.141/06)................................................................................73

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................73

1. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ..........73
2. Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:....................................................74
3. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................74

4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................74
5. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................74
6. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................75 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................75 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (Chairman of the Environment Scrutiny Panel): ......................75

12. Draft Restriction on Smoking (Vending Machines) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.150/2006)........................................................................75

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................75

1. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................76 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................76
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................76
3. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................76 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................76

13. Draft Crime (Disorder Conduct and Harassment) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.151/06).....76

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................77

1. Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):..................................77
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................79
3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................79
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................80

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................80
6. Deputy of St. Martin:...................................................................80 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:....................................................................81 H.M. Attorney General:......................................................................81
7. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................83
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................83
9. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................84 13.10 Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................84 13.11The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................84 13.12 Deputy of St. John:.....................................................................85 13.13 Deputy P.N. Troy : ......................................................................85 Deputy of St. Peter : ..........................................................................85 The Attorney General:........................................................................86 13.14 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................86 13.15Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................86 13.15 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:..............................................................88 13.16 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................89 13.17Senator L. Norman: ....................................................................89 13.18Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................90 13.19 Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................90 13.20 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................90 Deputy of St. Martin:.........................................................................91 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................91

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:..........................................................92
2. Senator W. Kinnard:...............................................................92
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................92
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:..........................................................92
5. Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................92 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................93
6. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:................................................93 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................93

7. Deputy S.Pitman:..................................................................93
8. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:............................................................93
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:................................................................94
10. Deputy P.N. Troy :...............................................................94
11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ........................................................95 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................95 Senator W. Kinnard:..........................................................................97 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................97

NOTIFICATION OF LODGED PROPOSITIONS............................................97

14. Jersey Financial Services Commission: Appointment of Commissioner (P.8/2007)...97 PUBIC BUSINESS (continued) ............................................................97
15. Ratification of Agreements with Bulgaria and Romania on the Taxation of Saving Income (P.163/06)........................................................................97

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................97 15.1 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................98 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................98

16. Draft Taxation (Agreements with European Union Member States) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.164/06)....................................................98

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................98 16.1 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................98 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................98 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan (Chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):...................99 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................99

17. Jersey Police Complaints Authority: Appointment of Chairman and Members (P.165/06)................................................................................99

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................99

1. Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):..................................99 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):.......................99 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................100
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:..............................................................100
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................100
4. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................100
5. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................100 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................101

18. Draft Income Tax (Amendment No. 27) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.167/06)...............102

The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................102

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ...................103
2. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:..................................................................103
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................104
4. Connétable G.W. Fisher of St. Lawrence:.............................................104
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ..............................................................104
6. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:................................................................104 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ....................................................................105 Senator T.A. Le Sueur:......................................................................105 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................105 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan (Chairman of the Corporate Affairs Scrutiny Panel):...................105 Senator T.A. Le Sueur:......................................................................105

1. The Deputy Bailiff :................................................................105 The Greffier of the States:...................................................................105
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.............................................................105 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................106

19. Manual Workers' Joint Council: Employers' Side Membership (P.171/06).........106 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................106

19.1 Senator F.H. Walker :..................................................................106 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................106

20. Draft Animal Welfare (Jersey) Law 2004 (Appointed Day) Act 200- (P.1/2007).....106

The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................106

1. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):....................107
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :..................................................................107
3. Deputy P.N. Troy : ....................................................................107
4. Deputy of St. Martin:..................................................................107
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................108
6. Senator F.E. Cohen:...................................................................108 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................108

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ..................108

21. The Deputy Bailiff :....................................................................108

1. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee): 108

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.............................................................108
2. Deputy A. Breckon: ................................................................109
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................109
4. Senator F.H. Walker :...............................................................110 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................110

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ..............................................................110 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................110
3. Senator S. Syvret:.....................................................................110

4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:...............................................................111

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.............................................................111
2. Deputy J.B. Fox:...................................................................111 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................111

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................111 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................111

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING INTERNET GAMBLING:

Question

Would the Minister inform members of his current policy on the authorisation of online internet gambling and state whether there have been any changes in his approach to this issue in recent months?

Answer

The Gambling (Jersey) Law 1964 currently prohibits any form of online gambling from Jersey. My officials are working with the Law Draftsman to produce a new regulation: the Gambling (Disaster Recovery) (Jersey) Regulation 200-. The new regulation will allow an online gambling operator to have a contingency Disaster Recovery facility in Jersey and be able to invoke these facilities for a limited period, if a disaster were to occur in the home jurisdiction. I intend to bring this to the States for debate before the summer recess.

Initial steps have been taken to modernise the Gambling Law with the launch of the Shadow Gambling Commission on the 15th December 2006. The role of the Shadow Commission is to

prepare for the transition to a statutory Gambling Commission and to advise the Minister and Assistant Minister on changes to the Island's gambling laws.

Law drafting time has been allocated this year for the preparation of a new Gambling Law and for the proposed new Gambling Commission Law. If this legislation is passed by the States then Regulations will be brought forward after public consultation and advice from the Commission in 2008.

The Shadow Commissioners will work with senior managers within the Economic Development Department to ensure that -

• Jersey retains its excellent international reputation as a well regulated jurisdiction;
• Business growth and investment is encouraged; and
• Potential harm is minimised and programmes introduced to protect the young and the vulnerable.

On the 31st October 2006 Deputy Alan Maclean represented Jersey at the first International Remote Gambling Summit in Ascot placing Jersey at the forefront of new developments in international principles. The Summit agreed that:

• remote gambling should be conducted responsibly and with safeguards necessary to protect children and vulnerable people;
• remote gambling should be regulated in accordance with generally accepted international standards to prevent fraud, money laundering and other crime, and should not be permitted to be a source of crime; and
• where offered, remote gambling should be verifiably fair to the consumer.

Members may be aware that on the 10th October 2006, the US President signed the unlawful internet gambling enforcement act, making it illegal for banks, credit cards companies and on-line payment systems to process payments to on-line gaming companies. This act does not, however, intrinsically change the nature of the present market. The prohibition approach is not a positive one, and only  serves to drive legitimate businesses away and remove public protection. This goes against everything we are trying to achieve in Jersey and the new Shadow Commission will be assessing the impact of this development, if any, in the coming months.

There remains a strong, healthy and legitimate market for eGambling and, by definition, a demand for suitable disaster recovery locations. Operators will focus upon jurisdictions that offer an exemplary regulatory and technological infrastructure. I am convinced that Jersey can offer this infrastructure and that there will be a continued demand for well regulated eBetting and eGaming in the future.

2. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE SITING OF TELEPHONE MASTS AND BASE UNITS:

Question

Further to public concerns, would the Minister undertake to ensure that no mobile telephone masts and base units are sited less than 300 metres from any school or medical facility?

Answer

As I have explained in the past it is not the role of the planning system to determine health safeguards for the public. However when I came into office at the beginning of this year, I recognised that there was public concern over the potential health impacts of the telecommunication base stations and requested an informed opinion from Health and Social Services as to the potential health impacts of mobile phone base stations.

The report from Health Protection in April 2006 was clear that no sound or reliable scientific evidence has been produced which indicates that exposure to the emissions from base stations is harmful in any way to health. The levels involved in Jersey are many times lower than the level of emissions recommended as safe by Lord Stewart's Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones in 2000. Adoption of these safe levels was an integral part of the precautionary approach recommended in Lord Stewart's report.

Not only has the Planning Department complied with the Health Department's recommendations for these telecommunication applications but I have gone beyond the recommendations of the Health Department and beyond the best practice in the UK. I require that all applications provide the estimated levels of emissions and, following the commissioning of the installation, the actual levels are measured by an engineer and verified by the Health Protection Department. It should be noted however, that estimated levels of emissions are a theoretical maximum based on ideal circumstances and are worst-case levels. The actual emissions from a base station are absorbed and reflected by buildings or vegetation and can be expected to be 100 to 10,000 times less than the estimates.

In this context I have ensured that I am not approving masts that pose health risks and that once the masts are installed they will be closely monitored and operated well within international guidelines. This situation applies to schools, medical facilities or the general population.

Turning now to the specific question raised by Deputy Lewis , I am satisfied at the current time there is no need for particular limitations to be put on installations in relation to nearby uses. This is for three particular reasons. Firstly and most importantly there is the information I have outlined above. Internationally recognised and independent research with budgets of many millions of pounds has not identified a link between mobile phone base stations and harm to any sector of the population. In such a context I cannot reasonably impose any spatial limitations on the installations.

Secondly it appears to me that the 300 metres suggested is an arbitrary number that has no scientific basis and is not supported by any credited health organisation worldwide. There have been reports that other countries have adopted exclusion zones or set minimum distances from mobile phone base stations to residences or schools. The main countries that have been stated as having exclusion zones are France, Australia and New Zealand. The fact is that none of these countries have adopted any statutory or federal exclusion zones or any other arbitrary additional safety factors beyond the exposure limits set by the international guideline. I have had direct written confirmation from the French Agency for Environmental and Occupational Health Safety and the French Ministry for Health that France "has not adopted any specific regulations relating to exclusion zones between mobile phone base stations and schools or residences".

Thirdly, despite other countries not having exclusion zones, the practicality of Jersey adopting exclusion zones would be impossible. It would be impossible to find enough land parcels in Jersey to support a mobile network that was 300-500 metres from any home or school. Even if you could find appropriate land parcels, the reality is that the owner of the land might not consent to the installation. There have been several installations to date that have not been located in the optimum place in a certain area because the land owner has refused consent, and have had to be installed at the next best location.

Concerns of a base station within 300 metres of school have recently been raised in relation to a recently approved planning application (S/2006/2353). The site on La Grande Route de St Lawrence, St Lawrence, when measured on the ground the site is 293 metres from the north-eastern boundary of the playing field of St Lawrence Primary School. The school building is in excess of 340m from the base station.

Notwithstanding the above I have been placed in a very difficult position with regard to determining the outstanding mast applications. I wish to balance my legal obligation to determine these outstanding applications within a reasonable time and my respect for the imminent Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Sub-Panel review of the issues surrounding the mobile phone base stations. Whilst I am satisfied on the basis of all the information currently available that there is no credible evidence available that links the presence of base stations with any health issues, it may be that the Sub-Panel reach a different conclusion and I am mindful of this possibility. With this in mind, since 8th January 2007 I have conditioned all the permits for telecommunication

equipment to the effect that should the Minister for Health and Social Services change his policy on the safety of telecommunication installations, I can require that the installations are removed. Should the Minister for Health and Social Services not change his policy, the permissions will have permanent effect. The permit for the base station in St Lawrence referred to above has such a condition attached.

In conclusion based on the currently available information I am satisfied that it would be unreasonable for me to impose exclusion zones for the mobile phone base stations in any circumstances if those base stations conform to the internationally recognised emissions limits.

3. DEPUTY K.C. LEWIS OF ST. SAVIOUR TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING DANGEROUS BREEDS OF DOGS:

Question

Following the recent tragedy in the United Kingdom involving a pit bull terrier, is the Minister confident that the current law in Jersey regarding dangerous breeds of dogs is adequate and, if not, what plans, if any, does he have to tighten controls?

Answer

It is an offence to import either a dog which is one of the four breeds stipulated in the U.K. Dangerous Dogs Act, or any dog of a fighting type, without an import licence, issued by the Minister for Home Affairs. No licences enabling such an import have been issued and when the legislation first came into force in 1992, there was no evidence that any fighting type of dogs were already on Jersey. Imports are monitored by staff from both Customs and Environment Departments.

The Dogs (Jersey) Law 1961 requires all dogs, with exceptions such as guide dogs, to be licensed. It requires the Connétable of the Parish to keep a register of all licences issued. Various measures concerning dog control are imposed on owners. Article 11 empowers the Magistrate's Court to require a dog which has been shown to be dangerous to be kept under proper control or to be destroyed.

Additionally, under the Protection of Animals (Jersey) Law 1980 it is an offence to cause an animal unnecessary suffering. The use of dogs for fighting undoubtedly causes unnecessary suffering. The Animal Welfare (Jersey) Law 2004 which is the subject of an Appointed Day Act includes an offence to keep or use an animal for the purpose of fighting.

In conclusion, there is no evidence of dog fighting in Jersey. Existing controls are effective and will be strengthened by the coming into force of the Animal Welfare Law.

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE "PLANNING FOR HOMES 2006" REPORT (R.94/2006):

Question

1. On page 43 of the report "Planning for Homes 2006" (R.94/2006) it states that one of the contributing factors to the rise in activity (and prices) in the housing market identified by estate agents is "new j category' (essential employee) buyers". How does the Minister reconcile this with his written answer on 5th December 2006 in which he stated that "it is simply not plausible () to ascribe the increase in house prices to a small number of essential employees"?
2. In light of the statement in the Planning for Homes 2006 report that the average prices for certain 3 bedroom houses are now "more than ten times current average annual earnings" what action, if any, does the Minister intend to take to tackle this situation in a meaningful way?
3. Would the Minister inform members whether the purchase of property by non-residents on a "buy to let" basis further restricts the supply of properties for purchase by locals and whether such purchases put additional upward pressure on prices?

Answer

1. The Planning ForHomes document makes it clear that "new j category (essential employee) buyers" is only one of five factors that is ascribed by the agents as being a contributory factor to the

increased activity in the housing market. The preceding comments in that report refer to "a new found confidence follows an upturn in the economy" and "this in turn has given rise to a more optimistic outlook in relation to the future of the Island's economy and future employment prospects.."

I maintain the view that any increase in new j category employees is not having a disproportional

impact on house prices, and is entirely consistent with current States strategic and economic policies.

2. Planning for Homes 2006' makes it clear that property prices are subject to the normal laws of supply and demand. The Minister for Planning and Environment will be undertaking a review oftheIsland Plan this year. I shall be working closely with Senator Cohen to ensure this document identifies building land to meet the housing needs of Island residents.

The demand side of the equation – as pointed out in Planning for Homes' – is influenced by many

factors, including, at present, a more optimistic outlook in relation to the future of the Island's economy; and the continued availability of cheap mortgages based on high multiples of earnings.

However, I am very conscious of the need for affordable housing to meet the needs of first-time

buyers, and to satisfy the commitment made by the States in last year's Strategic Plan, to expand home ownership. My Department's Ten-Year Property Plan, lodged today, seeks to address these issues, and others, in a sustainable way. I therefore refer the Deputy to the Property Plan, and to the statement I will be making today on that subject.

3. It must be remembered that only developments that are in multiple units and are sold by way of share transfer rather than by flying freehold are capable of being purchased by non-locally qualified persons. Save for a few historical exceptions individual houses are not allowed tobe sold in this manner. It follows that within the context of the overall controlled housing market the number available to non qualified persons is relatively small, and I have no evidence that locals are being restricted in their choice of new homes, or that such purchases are putting any additional upward pressure on prices in that section of the market. I would remind members that all such units can only be occupied by persons with residential qualifications.

5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING CO-ORDINATION BETWEEN DEPARTMENTS ON THE POPULATION REGISTER:

Question

Would the Chief Minister inform members what progress, if any, has been made towards co- ordination between the Population Office, the Health and Social Services Department, the Social Security Department and the Data Protection Commissioner over the Population Register?

Answer

The work on developing a Population Register is progressing steadily, both in terms of the practical arrangements and the law which will be brought to the States who will ultimately decide the form and nature of the Register.

The Data Protection Commissioner is closely involved in the project in terms of ensuring that any proposals are likely to be data protection compliant. The final proposal will be formally presented for her consideration before being presented to the States.

The Migration Policy approved by the States envisaged very close connections between the Social Security system and the Population Register. This original expectation is being confirmed as the project progresses and thus close links are being maintained with the Social Security Department. Work is also underway with Health and Social Services. The Medical Officer of Health and her professional colleagues have identified that improving health screening rates will save lives. In her annual report the Medical Officer of Health identified the need for a Health Screening database as one means of achieving this. It is therefore intended to create such a database using the same technology as would be used to create the Population Register. The index is to be compiled from health records to be used for health purposes and will be fully data protection compliant. However, health screening data will not be re-used in any future Population Register – it is the technology that will be re-usable.

6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE 2007 MINIMUM WAGE:

Question 1

1. Would the Minister agree to seek an explanation fromthe Employment Forum for its decision to base the 2007 minimum wage recommendation on the figure of 40% of the average wage and inform members of it and, in particular, would the Minister seek an explanation ofwhy the recommendation is not referenced to the internationally accepted relative low income threshold of 60% of median income?
2. Would the Minister inform members of Jersey's current relative low income threshold for a 40-hour week, and state how the minimum wage recommendation relates to this weekly figure?
3. In the light of this information, what steps, if any, will the Minister take to lift the family types given inTable13ofthe2002 Income Distribution Survey (appropriately updated)on the minimum wage out of relative poverty? In particular, will he consider raising the minimum wage above the recommendation?
4. Does the Minister support the Employment Forum's recommendation to introduce a "Youth Rate"at£4.05 for employees aged16to18in full-time education? Isthe Minister aware of any such employees (in Saturday/holiday jobs) who are currently paid at a lower rate?

Answer

1. There is no need toaskthe Employment Forum foran explanation because it is contained in the Forum's report, in particular, pages 11 to 15. I am aware that the Forum has not referenced its minimum wage recommendation tothe median income poverty level because it is not generally accepted as a base for setting the minimum wage in other jurisdictions.
2. The recommendation cannot relate to the relative low income figure as the latter cannot be calculated accurately from current statistics. It can only be calculated from an up to date income distribution. The Statistics Unit have estimated a figureof£8.25anhourbasedon a 40 hour week and calculated from updating data in the 2004/5 Household Expenditure Survey. Thisestimate is notbasedonthegenerally accepted "equivalised" income measure which would be the case with data from an Income Distribution Survey.
3. Minimum wages do not help those in relative poverty who do not work, for example pensioners, people with disabilities and some lone parents. The States are introducing an Income Support benefit for people in work and those that genuinely cannot work. I am currently considering the recommendations of the Forum.

4. I amconsideringthe question of a Youthrateand I recognisethattheStates rejected a Youth rate in 2004. The point at issue is whetherthe minimum wage is a barrier toenterthe work force and gain work experience opportunities for young workers. I am not aware ofany employees aged 16 to 18 being paid at a lower rate, which of course would be a breach of the Law.

Question 2

Has the Minister received the final draft of the report he commissioned into the working of Long- Term Incapacity Allowance (LTIA) yet and, if so, will he –

1. inform members what the report has to say concerning the long-term impact of LTIA for non-contributory funding?
2. agree to release the full report to members?

If he has not yet received this report when does he expect to do so? Answer

I have not received the final draft of Professor Stafford's report but I expect to do so within a month. As a commissioned independent report, it will be released to both the public and States' Members and will be posted on the website.

Question 3

In a written answer tabled on 5th December 2006 the Minister suggested that increases in supplementation in 2006 appeared "to be as a result of growth and change in employment rates at the lower to middle-income earning levels." Would the Minister inform members what progress, if any, has been made in investigating this increased demand on tax revenues?

Answer

The increase in supplementation is due to an increase in contributors whose earnings are below the earnings ceiling and an increase on the average supplementation per contributor attracting supplementation.

Comparing the first nine months of 2005 with the first nine months of 2006 shows that on average, the monthly number of overall contributors increased by 822 (55,119 to 55,941) whilst the number attracting supplementation increased on average by 1,143 (31,787 to 32,930). On average the individual level of supplementation increased from £135.25 a month in the 2005 period to £142.55 in the 2006 period. This 5.3% increase reflects the increase in earnings ceiling in January 2006 based on the increase in the earnings index published in June 2005.

Question 4

1. Would the Minister detail for members whether consultation was undertaken withthe Data Protection Commissioner over the questions asked in the application forms IS.01R and IS.01T relating to Income Support?
2. How many households have been asked to complete these application forms and how were they chosen?

3. Can the minister explain why a 27-page questionnaire of such complexity for benefit claimants is necessary and, in particular, justify, on data protection grounds or otherwise, why the following information is being requested –

1. details of any assets over the value of £1,000 held by the claimant or anyone in the household (section H, p.17).
2. The current value ofany land orpropertyand income received by any other household member (section H, p18).
3. Details of –
   1. benefits in kind;
   2. social security contributions;
   3. ITIS percentage;
   4. Contributory pension payments? (section G page 14)
4. Three-month bank statements from the claimant and other members of the household.
5. Details of income from benefits from therapeutic working and other benefits that hitherto have been disregarded for rent rebate or other purposes?

4. In section K it is revealedthat information may be shared by upto eight departments orother parties. What safeguards, if any, are, or will be, put in place to ensure that data are not inappropriately shared? Willthe Population Officebeaddedtothelistofthose departments that can share the data and, if not, is the population register to be kept entirely separate?

Answer

1. Form IS.01T which was used for Housing subsidy claimants was sent tothe Data Protection Commissioner for comments. Comments received were incorporated into the form. IS.01R which is used for claimants ofother benefits is essentially the same as IS.01T apart from obvious small amendments to the accommodation section resulting in fewer questions.
2. Form IS.01T sent out by the Housing Department replaced the rent abatement/rebate review form which is normally sent out annually to households receiving rental subsidies. Those households expecting a review between November 2006 and April 2007 will receive form IS.01T (some 2,750 households).

The remaining households receiving housing subsidies (2,750) will receive IS.01R as will the

3,000 households who do not receive rental subsidy but receive a non-contributory benefit from the Social Security Department.

3. The forms are necessary to obtain information from existing beneficiaries to avoid them being left with no money when IncomeSupport goes live. Not every household has to complete everysection and it effectively replaces 14 other application forms. The information asked for is necessaryastheStateshaveagreedthat Income Support should be based on assessments of both income and capital.

In order to assess income accurately and fairly, benefits in kind must be included but in order to ensure that people are not penalised by regular work expenses, deductions for statutory

payments such as social security contributions, income tax payments and potentially pension contributions need to be known.

Three month bank statements are requested as evidence of income and is a normal practice

which already occurs in respect of rental subsidy, HIE and some welfare assessments.

The existing different disregard of benefit and earnings continues to be confusing and create

disincentives in the current disjointed system. To avoid this under Income Support, it is proposed that all income be taken into account and certain deductions are to be allowed against earnings.

4. The declaration does not allow unrestricted sharing of information between Departments. The declaration allows the Department to verify information supplied by the applicant on the formwithother Departments. There are no plans to add the Population Office to the list especially as the form will not be in use when Income Support goes live. When the population register is in place verification withthePopulation Office may be necessary but only with the consent of the applicant.

7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE POTENTIAL SELL-OFF OF JERSEY TELECOM:

Question

Would the Minister inform members what target deadlines, if any, were set for the production of the following reports on the potential sell-off of Jersey Telecom and state whether any targets set have been met? If not, has this had any impact on the proposed schedule for action on this matter?

1. Citigroup;
2. Jersey Competition Regulatory Authority;
3. Economic Advisor.

Answer

1. Citigroup is working to my timetable for lodging proposals to the States in February 2007. I can confirm that the formulation of proposals is progressing in accordance with this timetable.
2. The Jersey Competition Regulatory Authority (JCRA) was set a target deadline ofthe year end 2006 for the production of its report. The report was published on 15th January 2007. The timing of the publication ofthereport has not impacted my proposals. TheTreasury department and my advisers have been in regular contact with the JCRA and have exchanged views regularly over the period since I issued my discussion paper on the proposal.
3. The Economic Advisor has a target deadline to complete his report by the end ofJanuary 2007. As withthe JCRA the Treasury department and my advisers have been in regular contact with the Economic Advisor and exchanged views regularly over the period since I issued my discussion paper on the proposal.

2. Oral Questions

1. Senator J.L. Perchard of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding school bus services seats:

Would the Minister inform Members how many school bus services seats are being provided on a daily basis by the new service provider, Connex, and whether there is sufficient seating capacity to deliver the service properly and, most of all, safely?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): There are a total of 2,443 seats being offered on a daily basis on the school bus service and this is in excess of the number of students travelling each day. Last week the average number of students carried in the morning was 800 and 1,050 seats were provided. In the afternoon 1,393 seats were provided and an average of 1,200 students were carried each day. I should point out; averages have been used in this analysis because the daily totals differ significantly, as has always been the case. Moreover, some services may be overcrowded on some days while others are under-utilised. However, as the service has by its nature uncontrolled access, any eligible student wishing to travel who has a valid ticket must try to be accommodated. After-school activities - which differ each day and during the terms, as well as whether the student travels to and from the same place every day - have a significant influence on demand. At times students may need to stand to allow greater capacity, as indeed they may be required to do on the scheduled services but this is only ever meant to be on an ad hoc basis and will always be in a safe manner to protect passengers, drivers and other road users. Incidentally, the previous operator encountered exactly the same issues on a regular basis. My department is working very closely with Connex, as indeed it did with the previous operator, to ensure that the occasional overloads are minimised and that the service provided is both effective and safe.

1. Senator J.L. Perchard:

I am surprised to hear the Minister suggest to this Assembly that students standing on buses is acceptable. In my book, Sir, it is completely unacceptable and may I remind the Minister it is against the law for children under the age of 14 to travel in private vehicles without seatbelts. My question is; will the Minister insist as from tomorrow that Connex deliver the service they tendered for and what action will he take against them if they do not?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I have insisted from the moment that the tender was awarded to Connex that Connex deliver the service they tendered for and Connex are doing just that. I can assure the Senator I am well aware of the law that applies to seatbelt Regulations. The fact is that I should remind the Senator that standing on an omnibus is not against the law and that in due course, although regrettably seatbelts were not fitted to some of the school buses on arrival, seatbelts are being fitted to the school buses and parents need have no concerns about overall safety.

2. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Will the Minister confirm that Connex's successful tender did include the provision to supply seats for all the children travelling in their care and that children standing was not part of the tender process?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I can confirm that Connex fulfilled the same brief as the other tenderer, which was to read the tendered document and provide a tender to cater for the capacity that was required but the question of whether students were standing or not was not a feature of the tender process.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Does the Minister confirm that it is simply not good enough to dismiss these concerns as mere teething problems, as he is reported to have done; that he needs to provide a service which meets all reasonable needs - and this is a reasonable one - if he is to achieve his target reduction of reducing car use by 15 per cent in the near future?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I am quite satisfied that the problems that are being exhibited in the first 10 days or so of the school service this term are no different from the problems that are exhibited at the beginning of any term because the behaviour and travel patterns of students change on a regular basis and what we are witnessing is absolutely no different to what has gone before. I am also quite satisfied with the tender process and I am very happy with the new buses that have been provided by the new operator. The service, in my opinion, is of much higher quality than previously.

4. Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade :

Can the Minister confirm that his department has received complaints from parents of children who have to travel long distances while standing and confirm what he has done about resolving the situation?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I can confirm the department has received a very small number of complaints. Unfortunately it seems that most complaints are being directed toward Senator Perchard, at a request he made through the media, so there may be more complaints out there than I am aware of. At the moment Senator Perchard is conveying those complaints to me via the columns of the local newspaper, so the procedure of dealing with complaints is somewhat chaotic.

5. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Once again we have seen the arrogance of this Minister at first hand. This is a very serious subject, Sir. Children as young as 11 are standing on buses. I want to know if the Minister thinks this is acceptable and what immediate action does the Minister intend to take regarding this unacceptable situation?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I am not sure if I can compete with the Senator in terms of arrogance, Sir, but I will do my best. I am quite satisfied with the way the department  is handling the services operated by the new operator. I have said previously in public that there have been one or 2 minor glitches. In general, though, the service is working extremely well and I expect it to bed down in due course but the reality, which I think that most Members do understand, is that our young students are intelligent and they often use the service in the way that they see fit; not necessarily the way the service was planned. In fact, much of the overloading is caused by students switching from their normal routes because they have decided to take another one. They are entitled to do that and we try and cater for this on a rolling basis and I am happy that between the department and Connex a proper and safe and effective service is being provided.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am going to allow one more question on this because we have a number of questions to get through. Deputy Le Claire.

6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Would the Minister agree with me that perhaps setting a more responsible approach and a more responsible attitude to this issue by discussing the matters with the Senator, and perhaps Senator Vibert , would be a clear way forward and also demonstrates to those in the gallery that we are taking the matter seriously and would he, while giving that undertaking, also inform Members - if he is able - as to how much this service is costing the States of Jersey in subsidy and how much it is costing per child that travels while standing?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I can inform Members that the school bus service is in fact a very expensive service to operate. In broad terms it costs, in terms of subsidy paid for by the taxpayer, £2 per student per ride. I would be happy to continue discussions on an alternative basis with Senator Perchard and I look forward to doing so, a bit.

7. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Point of order, Sir. I did ask the Minister a question on a very important subject that he failed to answer; about the immediate action he intends to take to solve this unacceptable situation?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I am sorry, Sir, the Senator seems to be appearing to suffer from a little deafness. I indicated quite clearly there is no need for me to take any immediate action because I am quite satisfied that Connex is delivering what it promised in the contract that it won under the tender process. There is absolutely no need to do anything drastic at this stage because there is no requirement for any drastic remedial action. The service is operating in a perfectly satisfactory way.

2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the costs of internal investigations by the States of Jersey Police:

Would the Minister update the Assembly on the total costs of internal investigations by the States of Jersey Police since her last answer on this matter on the 20th June 2006, including the vehicle recovery matters and the case of accessing the registered keeper database, and will she also give the figures for the total number of police officers and civilian staff currently on suspension?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister of Home Affairs):

Internal investigations are handled by the Professional Standards Department and the officers who work in this department are part of the establishment of the force and their salaries are paid, irrespective of which department they work within. There is therefore no relevant additional cost to the internal investigations. The officers' salaries are fixed costs to the force as they work on a number of cases at any one time and are assigned to other duties as operational needs arise. I cannot comment on the specific case to which the Deputy draws attention as some matters are still sub judice but I can say that there is currently one police officer suspended. There are no civilians suspended.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

I asked for the costs of the investigations, whether it is met out of the Professional Standards Department budget or not. Perhaps the Minister could give us the costs?

Senator W. Kinnard:

The only costs that perhaps could be relevant are the staff costs. The Professional Standards Department is comprised of one detective inspector and 2 detective sergeants and a half of a civilian manager's role. The salaries for those police ranks are publicly available but I can supply those for information: £61,128 per annum for the inspector and £49,455 for each of the sergeants. The civilian post is currently the Civil Service grade 7 with a salary range of £25,237 to £28,414.

2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

The length of time it has taken to investigate the vehicle recovery matters and the registered keeper database excess?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I did say that I would not comment on the specific cases but I will say, Sir, that the review into the towing arrangements carried out by officers from the Sussex Police Force was not in fact a Professional Standards Department matter. It covered a number of matters involving States of Jersey Police's strategic review of their recovery of vehicles. The 2 matters in that particular instance are not related. Thank you, Sir.

3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Sir, supplementary. How much time was spent on the vehicle recovery matter?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I do not have the exact amount of time. That is a matter perhaps I could find out but I do not see what relevance it can possibly be. Thank you, Sir.

3. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding "pre-camp" provision for the 2012 London Olympics:

Would the Minister inform Members whether his department aims to identify "pre-camp" provision for the 2012 London Olympics and, if so, what research has been undertaken by his department in costing this provision, when does he expect it to be completed and where will the funding come from for this facility?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

My department is actively marketing the Island as a possible pre-games training camp venue for teams participating in the 2012 Olympic Games in London. Existing sports facilities that meet the criteria for pre-games training camps have been identified by my department and various sports associations in the Island. No new facilities will be developed for these camps and therefore there is no funding required.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding numbers of dysfunctional parents in the Island:

Following his recent statement that there are huge numbers of dysfunctional parents in the Island, would the Minister indicate whether his department has information on the actual numbers and state when he will be bringing forward plans to address this issue and in particular whether he will be pursuing his professed wish to provide for the imprisonment of some such parents?

Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

There is no effective means of determining the actual numbers of such dysfunctional families. It will come as no surprise to the Deputy that these parents are rarely so self-aware as to readily identify themselves as dysfunctional. My observations are drawn from 2 principal sources; firstly, from my own now extensive experience as both President and Minister with ultimate responsibility for intervening and placing children at risk with our looked-after service. Secondly, from my discussions with a wide range of health and social care practitioners, personal experience, members of the public, police officers and indeed some of these dysfunctional parents themselves. It must also be noted that the stereotypical image of dysfunctional parents fails to convey the full scale of the problem. There are numerous instances of neglect, violence, emotional cruelty and gross dysfunction to be found in many middle class households. Though it will come as a surprise to some, such as the author of the JEP leader and the Deputy himself, the Children's Jersey Law 2002 already contains provision for the jailing of parents. The Law states that if a person who has responsibility for a child under the age of 16 intentionally or recklessly causes harm to that child, exposes him to risk of harm or neglects him in a manner likely to cause harm, that person will be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine or to a term of imprisonment. It can therefore been seen that we have already passed laws which render parents liable to imprisonment for failing to properly care for their children. Therefore, the question is not one of principle; rather it is whether the extant law goes far enough in furnishing the courts with sufficient powers. Wishing to see the courts jail a parent who has been found guilty of gross failure and neglect of a child may seem harsh but I am afraid that our society often treats children in ways which would be regarded as utterly appalling and completely unacceptable if applied to an adult. I am not naturally a person who believes that tougher laws and sentences are the panacea to all social ills. Dysfunctional and inadequate parents are usually victims themselves, failed in turn by their parents and society at large. What most people in this category need is help.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Minister, I have given you some leeway, but how much longer are you going on for?

Senator S. Syvret:

I am nearly finished, Sir, but it is an important question. However, if a couple with young children, having received extensive support from Social Services, the Alcohol and Drug Service, and very often the forbearance of the courts, are still discovered in a drug-induced stupor while children crawl on the floor among broken bottles, rotting pizza boxes, cigarette ends and used heroin needles, then imprisonment may be the necessary measure and I make no apologies for that.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge that to use a phrase like "huge numbers" gives a totally misleading impression of what is conventional wisdom in the field, namely that there are a group of intractable and very difficult parents, but to jump from the kind of anecdotal conversations he has had with professionals to "huge numbers" seems in the circumstances entirely irresponsible?

Senator S. Syvret:

No, Sir, that is utter nonsense. The fact is there are a variety of types of family dysfunction to be found across the entire social spectrum and to imagine that we are only talking about the kind of very extreme case which I refer to at the end of my original answer is, I am afraid, to miss the true nature of the problem and to miss the point. Neglect, emotional cruelty and various other forms of dysfunction are in fact, unfortunately and tragically, to be found in many, many families across the Island.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister sincerely believe that imprisonment of parents can be used to help either the parents or their children?

Senator S. Syvret:

In some very extreme cases where the neglect is both physical and emotional to the child, where they are at risk of harm, malnutrition, perhaps injuring themselves because of a lack of care, then, yes, taking the children into care may well be the best option for the child and also if we are looking upon prison as I do - as a process of rehabilitation, whereby people who are imprisoned might learn to become better and more useful members of society - then some of these parents who are at the very extreme end of the spectrum may in fact benefit from and be helped by imprisonment, providing the services provided in the prison are aimed at being rehabilitative as opposed to being merely punitive.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Is the Minister assured, if these parents do exist and the amount, that if these children are taken into care - looked-after children - that his department, Sir, his Ministry is achieving what the Cathy Bull Report many years ago suggested. We still have, I think, 2 full children's homes and will the Minister also inform us how many more professional foster-carers we have. If the Minister is saying he needs to take these children out of an unsuitable environment, is he sure he has got a suitable environment and enough carers - professional - to take care of them, because I would dispute this, Sir?

Senator S. Syvret:

I  agree entirely with the Deputy 's point.   No, we do not  have sufficient  facilities, sufficient professional foster carers at present. If the Deputy or other Members of the Assembly wish to provide us with sufficient resources I would be very, very happy to see more investment in this area. This is the second year of our implementation of developing a professional foster-caring service in the Island, so we are in fact devoting a lot of effort into developing this particular area, with ultimately a view of fully incorporating and enacting all of the recommendations of the Cathy Bull report, which did, as the Deputy rightly points out, mean the closing down of the institutions in which children are kept. Frankly, it cannot happen soon enough as far as I am concerned but as I said there are certain constraints, money being one of them, but also the time it takes to recruit and properly train professional foster carers.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I did ask for a specific number - and I was one of those who voted for the extra resources for the professional foster-carers - how many extra have we, this year, recruited since the last 2 years?

Senator S. Syvret:

I do not know the precise figures at the moment, Sir. I can find out that information and provide it to the Deputy later.

5. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

The Minister is right about the numbers that he has been expressing this morning. Is he actively having discussion with the Minister for Home Affairs in relation to the preventive measures for those people who unfortunately end up in prison or other establishments of necessity, and if he is not will he do so?

Senator S. Syvret:

I have not so far discussed this precise issue with the Minister for Home Affairs although we have discussed the generality of these issues in conjunction with the Minister for Education as part of the Children's Executive corporate parent function. I certainly do intend, upon developing these issues further and getting professional reports prepared on the subject, to bring it to the Children's Executive for discussion.

6. Senator M.E. Vibert :

I wonder if the Minister would agree with me that in any cases where families are having problems the emphasis should be on supporting and helping those families who are experiencing difficulties and that that is what the emphasis should be on and that the talk of punishment and even imprisonment should be completely as a last resort and hopefully never have to be introduced?

Senator S. Syvret:

As I said in my original answer, what these people do need is help and I would certainly agree with the Senator that in the main what we are talking about are people who are victims themselves and who do need the help and support of the State. Certainly I have no hesitation in agreeing that prosecution, and perhaps imprisonment, should be ultimately a very, very last resort. It is not something I advocate or wish to see a great deal of but it is in fact in some cases, I regret, a necessity and as I already explained in my initial answer, such provision - although the Minister is not perhaps aware of it - does in fact already exist in the existing Children's Law.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

While understanding the Minister's frustration, would the Minister not accept that by talking of "huge numbers" he is suggesting - as Deputy Martin has suggested - that Social Services are going to be utterly overwhelmed and it is a totally misleading assumption of "huge numbers". Secondly, Sir, would he tell the House who is going to define what is dysfunctional if he is saying dysfunctionality is almost everywhere in our society? Who will be the Parental Correction Tribunal in this society?

Senator S. Syvret:

I did not say in fact that dysfunction is everywhere in our society, I just said it is more common than perhaps people would like to imagine. I cannot remember them all extensively off the top of my head but there are in fact already guidelines and procedures written-up that are used in these kind of cases for assessing whether the circumstance of a child might put them at risk in some way of suffering neglect or harm. Jersey has a Child Protection Committee with a number of eminent people on it who routinely revise and update the Child Protection Handbook. So, these procedures do exist already, Sir.

8. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I may be stretching it, but some looked-after children - quite a few in Jersey - go on to be adopted. In the old committee form, it used to have to come to committee and everybody discussed and agreed. Could the Minister tell me now who makes the final decision on adoption? Is it just his alone? Thank you, Sir.

Senator S. Syvret:

No, Sir, it is not mine alone or was it the committee's alone. It is a matter for the courts. We make the decision that we conclude that it is in the best interest of a child or children to free them for adoption. The matter then has to go to the court and rightly so. This is the ultimate check and balance. The court decides whether our recommendations - our findings - are fair, balanced and justified as a case may or may not be.

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding grants for Sea Cadets and Air Cadets:

Would the Minister inform Members whether or not it is her intention to reduce or remove altogether the grants made for the Sea and Air Cadets, possibly jeopardising the running of these organisations and, if so, will she undertake to reverse this decision so that no such cuts will be made?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs): It is not my intention to reduce or remove the grants.

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre of St. Lawrence :

I thank the Minister for her reply to my question submitted on 2nd January. Just a few weeks ago, I, myself, Sir, was attending TS Jersey up at Fort Regent and I was honoured to be invited by the Commanding Officer to present the awards to some of these hard working and dedicated cadets. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister if she has the intention of continuing to support the cadets beyond next year, as these Air and Sea Cadets are a credit to Jersey?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I would agree with the sentiment that not just the Sea Cadets but also the Air Cadets and indeed the Victoria College CCF (Combined Cadet Force) are all supported by Home Affairs and we consider they are of a great value to our community. However, Sir, in these difficult funding situations that the States finds themselves in, I cannot guarantee future funding into future years. It has to be a matter that is prioritised on a year-by-year basis. We give £10,000 currently to each of those organisations and I would hope that we would be able to continue to do so, but it would be financially irresponsible of me to make commitments into the future that I would then perhaps not be able to fulfil. The 3 organisations have always been aware of the situation. They have certainly been aware of the situation since last June and I think that we have a way of working together that suits us quite well. Thank you, Sir.

2. Deputy J.B. Fox:

I wonder if the Minister could give assurance to the House that if there is ever occasion in the future that she would be required to consider withdrawing such grants of this important nature that she would consider or indeed take it to the Council of Ministers to see whether in fact there was another way around the issue before making a decision and then having to or being able to withdraw the decision? Thank you.

Senator W. Kinnard:

Yes, it would have been a matter that I would have taken to the Council of Ministers had I found myself in a position where I would have had to withdraw the grants, because it was not something that I wanted to do. It is unfortunate that all the funding has fallen on to Home Affairs because in fact it was the Education Committee that withdrew their share of funding to these organisations some years ago. So, it is unfortunate that these organisations have to rely on Home Affairs alone.

3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Does the Minister not realise that by funding these particular organisations, she cuts down the amount of work that the police may well have to do in the future because of the standards, ethics and discipline that these organisations impose?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Yes, Sir, I do not need any convincing of that but the priority for the Department of Home Affairs must be to ensure the ongoing provision of frontline services, and while I fully support the opportunities that are provided by all of these organisations to young people, the Home Affairs responsibility is first to the needs of the Island as a whole and that must take priority. I share the sentiments that are expressed around the Chamber about these organisations and clearly I am pleased to be able to continue to support them into 2007.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge that put against the vast staffing costs of the States and of the department she runs, that the expenditure of £10,000 represents enormous value for money and the public will see this as yet another attack upon the principle of honorary service? Thank you, Sir.

Senator W. Kinnard:

It is £30,000 because it is 3 organisations and they were treated in exactly the same manner. What the Members must realise, Sir, is that the Home Affairs budget has been under severe strain particularly in 2006. In fact, with the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme - a commitment which was entered into by the States - overrunning severely by some £320,000, Members must realise that when severe budgetary pressures are on we have to make very difficult and hard decisions and this was not a decision I would have liked to have taken. It was certainly not one I would have taken lightly but, Sir, again I have to state that when we are dealing with frontline services that are to do with the protection of the whole of the Island that must take priority. But, again, I think £30,000 is money well spent on 3 organisations and I have done everything I can to protect their position.

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I congratulate the Minister on finding the money but it seems I will need to reappear next year and pursue the Minister again, but at twice the price I think this would be an absolute bargain. Does the Minister not agree?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I think it is good value for money at the price that it is. Thank you, Sir.

6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the proposed sale of the former Sunshine Hotel site:

In R.1/2007 Members are notified of the Minister's intention to sell the former Sunshine Hotel site and cottage for £2.1 million. Would the Minister inform the Assembly whether a purchase price of £1.975 million in 1999 plus ongoing associated costs represents best use of public funds against a proposed sale price of £2.1 million in 2007 and how such a transaction fits within the States social housing policy?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

My Assistant Minister, Deputy Le Fondré, deals with property matters and I would ask that he would help to report over this question and a subsequent one on property.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources):

To take the last part of the question first, the transaction does still comply with States social housing policy because it requires first-time buyer accommodation to be built on the site and for the site to be used for first-time buyer accommodation in perpetuity. With regard to the cost, I think I would agree with the inference that this does come at a price. I can confirm my understanding that the development cost of the site was likely to be hugely expensive for social rented housing to the extent that it was finally not felt to be a viable proposition. Accordingly I understand that the Housing Committee of the day felt that this was the most effective option remaining to them while keeping the purpose of the site consistent with the original aims when acquired and the property was transferred to Property Holdings for disposal, with the funds being paid back into the Housing Development Fund.

1. Deputy A. Breckon:

In the original question I did ask for associated costs. If I may prompt the Assistant Minister and perhaps give him a few clues to what I was looking for? I would be looking for something like the demolition and site stabilisation and security cost, professional fees associated with planning and design. I wonder if he could apply his mind to that, Sir?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

The Deputy did not ask for a quantification of those costs but I will not say I am pleased to inform him because it is a substantial sum of money. The total additional cost for demolition, design and planning fees in the period since acquisition have totalled in the order of £650,000.

2. Deputy A. Breckon:

In view of the figures that the Assistant Minister has just revealed, I did ask if it was the best use of public funds and therefore, again, Sir, I will probably give him a prompt. Is it the best use of public funds that we in fact lose about £1 million on this deal?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

We are not losing about £1 million on the deal. Broadly speaking, as you can see, £2.1 million against £1.975 million is an immediate difference of plus, roughly, £100,000 or something. The second point is that during the period between 1999, when the property was acquired, and

approximately a year and a half afterwards, the States received an additional, I think it was £125,000 in terms of a licence fee, because I believe the hotel continued to operate. That said, it is still a substantial sum of money. The point being, Sir, that my understanding is that the view was taken, in light of the experiences on certain other rather expensive sites, that in terms of trying to achieve the housing policy aim - which was to provide additional category A housing - the best way was for the States to effectively cut its losses and put it out to open tender, which was achieved. We took the highest price available on the site and to put a condition on the development of that site which does meet the criteria required. That is my understanding, Sir, and I await any further questions.

3. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

Could the Assistant Minister explain why was this property is not included in the 2007 Property Plan?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

Yes, Sir, because I asked the same question. Again my understanding is because it was acquired from funding from the Housing Development Fund and the funds are going back into the Housing Development Fund and therefore it is was not originally a part of the property holding portfolio.

4. Deputy of St. Ouen :

Could the Assistant Minister explain to this House first of all what the Housing Development Fund is for and how much is currently in its balance?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

I cannot tell you off hand the exact balance at present. I will be delighted to find out the information and return it back to the Deputy . My understanding again of the Housing Development Fund was that it was originally acquired - okay, my understanding, but again I would like to confirm it with the Deputy - it was used to essentially create land banks and provide subsidies and generation of housing sites but I think I would refer that question probably more appropriately, to give a better answer, to perhaps the Housing Minister.

5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Would the Assistant Minister tell us what the market value of such a site is and therefore how much the hidden subsidy that is going into this social housing?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

I think, Sir, I would have to say that the market value of the site as it currently stands is £2.1 million, because that is what people are prepared to pay for it.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Would the Assistant Minister undertake to return to the House with figures that account for the 7 years of interest foregone and inflation built into the figures to reveal the true value of this transaction?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

I am sure, Sir, we can provide the calculations that the Deputy seeks with not too much difficulty and I will ask my officers to do so.

7. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

Well, I am sure it is quite a simple question, really, Sir, but I am wondering why we ever bought the property in the first place?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

I think it was before my time, Sir, is the short answer and I think you would have to refer to - I am guessing - the Minister for Housing at the time. I see it was in accordance with then States policy.

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Assistant Minister confirm, that having studied the papers, that the property was grossly over-valued and could he furthermore assure us that he now has put procedures in place so this kind of gross over-evaluation will never occur again?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

The difficulty in terms of gross over-evaluation I would have to look back at papers because you are looking at market conditions at the time and obviously at the time, and even now, you do not buy these type of things for an investment return at the end of the day. The site was bought as it was and is now being sold as a cleared site for a limited, certain type of development. So, you could maybe add that part of the price that we have paid is the price for limiting what can go on that site in terms of category A housing in the future. Other than that, yes, I too would have reservations if we did something similar to that again and if procedures are not in place, they will be shortly.

9. Deputy J.A. Martin:

It is my reservation, Sir, that we will be doing something similar to this again, because we are told by the Housing President, Sir, that we need 400 sheltered housing and here we have a perfect site. There is a bus at Havre des Pas and Green Street, every trip 20 minutes. We own it. We have sat on it for 7 years losing my question is, will the Assistant Minister please take this back to the Minister who considers this for sheltered housing as we already own it and we really need this type of housing. We do need first-time buyer homes but I would suggest the site is more suitable and urgently more needed for sheltered housing. Would the Minister not agree? Thank you, Sir.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondre:

I think at that stage, Sir, I think we are starting to veer into housing policy areas, which I am afraid I will have to defer to the Minister for Housing. My understanding was that it was felt that category A first-time buyer housing was also appropriate for the site.

Deputy T.J. Le Main:

Sir, the Housing Minister would not support that at all.

10. Deputy J.B. Fox:

Yes, Sir, I was on Planning when this one went through and it was a brown field site and there was an urgent need for first-time buyer housing, et cetera. In the ensuing period the world has changed and certainly the Island has changed and the question now I would like to ask is, is there more value in the site if its initial first-time buyer status is redefined to category B or whatever and if so would it not be an idea for the Assistant Minister and the Minister to re-examine bringing back to the States a new proposition so that can be considered by the House. Thank you, Sir.