States Meeting Transcript - 03/06/2008

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 3rd JUNE 2008

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

1. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING POLICE CADET TRAINING:................................8
   2. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS

REGARDING POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY: .....................................9

3. SENATOR J.L. PERCHARD OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE CONDUCT OF THE DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:...................................12
4. SENATOR J.L. PERCHARD OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE FRAGMENT FOUND IN FEBRUARY 2008 AT HAUT DE LA GARENNE: ............................................................................12
5. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE ERECTION OF A FERRIS WHEEL ON THE WATERFRONT:.12
6. DEPUTY I.J. GORST OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING ROAD WORKS AT RUE DE MAUPERTUIS, ST. CLEMENT:......................................................13
7. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING PROSECUTIONS FOR THE POSSESSION OF MACHINE GUNS: .................................................................................14
8. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING MEDIA STATEMENTS MADE BY THE DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:...................................15
9. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE SUPER-FILL' AT LA COLLETTE: ...........................................................................15
10. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ELECTIONEERING BY PUBLIC EMPLOYEES:.....................16
11. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING YOUNG OFFENDERS BEING PLACED AT H.M.P. LA MOYE:....17
12. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE SUCCESS OF

GREENFIELDS:.......................................................................17

13. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS:.17
14. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE APPOINTMENT OF LOCAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS:...........................................................18

15. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF A REPORT INTO THE RESIGNATION OF MR. S. BELLWOOD: ..................................................................19
16. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING PAYMENTS TO AIRLINES TO OPERATE LONDON ROUTES: ......................................................19
17. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING THE PURCHASE OF FERRIES BY JERSEY HERITAGE TRUST:..........................................20
18. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING WAGE INFLATION:.............................20
19. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING REDUCTIONS IN TAX BILLS FOR THOSE ON MARGINAL RATES OF INCOME TAX:.............................................21

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................21

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding a possible conflict between the role of Senator Perchard as Assistant Minister in charge of Children's Services and his membership of the Chief Minister's Advisory Group relating to the Haut de la Garenne affair:........................................21 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.........................21

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................22
2. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................22
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................22

2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the cessation of milk deliveries for all Parishes outside St. Helier : ...........22 Connétable G.W.J. Fisher of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................22

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................23
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................23
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................23
4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................23
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ...............................................24
7. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................24

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the purchase of amphibious vehicles operating to Elizabeth Castle by the Jersey Heritage Trust:..................................................................24 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................24

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................24
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
6. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier:...................................................25
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................26
8. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................26

4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Chief Minister regarding the maintenance of the former Tourism Building:..............................................................26 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................26

2.4.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................26

5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the publication of the Hazard Review Group Phase 2 report on La Collette Fuel Depot and Jersey Gas Facility:................................................................27 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):...27

2.5.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................27

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding tenders for the bus service contract:....................................................27 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ................27

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................27
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................28

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................28
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................28
5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................29

7. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding breast and prostate cancer screening programmes: ............................................29 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.........................29

2.7.1 The Deputy of St. Martin...............................................................30

8. Deputy S. Power of the Assistant Minister for Home Affairs regarding the appropriateness of comments made by the Deputy Chief of Police at a press conference on 23rd February 2008:.................................................................30 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):.......................30

1. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................30
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................31

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................31
4. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................31
5. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................31

9. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the provision ofnursery care for working mothers:.........................................32 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................32

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................32
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................32
3. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................33
4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................33
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................33
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................33

10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the purchase of amphibious vehicles servicing Elizabeth Castle: ...........................34 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................34

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................34
2. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................34
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................34
4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................35
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35

11. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the establishment of a formal agreement with Disclosure Scotland as part of the Rehabilitation of Offenders (Jersey) Law:................................................................35 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................35

2.11.1 The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................36

12. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Economic Development regarding visitor beds available in each of the last 5 years:...............................................36 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................36

2.12.1 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................37

3. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services..................................................................................37

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................37 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ................37

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................38
2. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................38
3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................38

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................38
3. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................39
4. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................39

3.4.1 Deputy S. Power:.......................................................................39

5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................39
6. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................40
7. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:....................................................40
8. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: ................................................................40

3.8.1 Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: ................................................................41

4. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Minister for Economic Development..41

The Bailiff :...................................................................................41

1. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:...............................................41 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................41
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................42
3. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................42
4. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................42
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................43

4.6.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................43

7. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................44
8. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................44
9. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................44
10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................44
11. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................45

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................45

5. Statement by the Minister for Economic Development regarding a review of the Licensing (Jersey) Law 1974............................................................45

5.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):......................45

5.1.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................46

6. Statement by the Minister for Social Security regarding Income Support............46

6.1 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):................................46

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
4. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................50

5. Connétable S.A. Yates of St. Martin:...................................................50
6. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................50
7. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................50
8. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................51

7. Statement by the Minister for the Transport and Technical Services regarding the extension of the Connex contract........................................................51

7.1 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ..........51

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................52
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................52
3. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................53
4. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................53
5. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................53

8. Statement by the Chairman of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel regarding the Panel's review of employment and training opportunities in Jersey for young people ...........................................................................................54

8.1 Deputy G.P. Southern (Chairman, Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel): ..................54

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................54
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................54
3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................54
4. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................55
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................55

9. Statement by the Chief Minister regarding the historic child abuse investigation....55

9.1. Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................55

10. Statement by the Chief Minister regarding the establishment of a Charities Commission..............................................................................55

10.1 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................55

10.1.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst :....................................................................56

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................56

11. Drainage Law: service of notices on owners (P.57/2008)...............................56

11.1 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):...................56 The Bailiff :...................................................................................59

1. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye: .............................................................60

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................63 Senator L. Norman: ..........................................................................63 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:......................................................................63

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................63 PUBLIC BUSINESS (continued)................................................................63

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:......................................................................63 Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:..........................................................64

2. The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................65
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................66
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................66
5. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier:.......................................................67
6. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier : .......................................................69
7. Senator M.E. Vibert :................................................................70
8. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................70
9. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey: ............................71
10. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:............................................................71 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:......................................................................72 The Bailiff :...................................................................................72
11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..............................................................72
12. The Deputy of St. Mary:...........................................................73

11.1.12 Senator B.E. Shenton:..............................................................74 The Bailiff :...................................................................................76

12. Draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (British Broadcasting Corporation) (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.59/2008)............................................................77

1. The Deputy of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs - rapporteur):............77

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................77
2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................78
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................78
4. Senator W. Kinnard:.................................................................78
5. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye: .............................................................79
6. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................79 The Bailiff :...................................................................................80 Deputy D.W. Mezbourian (Chairman, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel): ........81 The Bailiff :...................................................................................81

2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................81

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................82
2. Senator W. Kinnard:.................................................................82
3. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................82 The Bailiff :...................................................................................82

13. Esplanade Quarter, St. Helier : Masterplan (P.60/2008)................................82

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................82 The Bailiff :...................................................................................82

1. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment - rapporteur): ........83 The Bailiff :...................................................................................88
2. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................89 Deputy G.P. Southern :........................................................................89 Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.......................................................................89
3. Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................90

13.3.1 Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................90 The Bailiff :...................................................................................91

4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ..........91

13.4.1 The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................91 The Bailiff :...................................................................................91

5. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................92

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Hilton:....................................................92
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................92
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................92
4. Senator F.H. Walker :................................................................93
5. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................93 The Bailiff :...................................................................................93
   6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................94

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................95
2. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................95
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................97
4. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................97
5. Senator L. Norman:..................................................................99 Deputy G.P. Southern :........................................................................99 The Bailiff :...................................................................................99
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................100

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED................................................................101 Senator S. Syvret:...........................................................................101 The Bailiff :..................................................................................101 Deputy G.P. Southern :......................................................................101 Deputy I.J. Gorst : ...........................................................................101 The Bailiff :..................................................................................101

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................101

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1.1.  DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER  FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING POLICE CADET TRAINING:

Question

"Can the Minister confirm whether –

1. all States of Jersey Police Cadets now have all their basic training completed in Jersey?
2. whether any use of made of Police Training Colleges such as Ashford in Kent and, if not, why?
3. whether any provision is made to allow Jersey Police Officers to carry out police work and study in the UK with UK police forces for training and experience purposes?
4. whether any provision is made for Jersey Police Cadets and Jersey Police Officers to study and become familiar with UK Criminal Law, as well as Jersey Law?"

Answer

1. New officers are not cadets; they are sworn in police officers from the commencement of their training.

As is now the case with all UK forces, the States of Jersey Police are responsible for providing their own foundation training for new police officers. The States of Jersey Police have been running the in-house foundation training since July 2005.

This is an extensive fifteen week training programme, which provides inputs on local law and procedures from week one. A number of practical tasks are included to assess each officer on their ability to put into practice the classroom based lessons. This knowledge is further tested in formal law based examinations. Some of these practical tasks are conducted in public areas, for example the pocket notebook exercise is conducted in the town area and officers ask members of the public a number of questions.

Fitness and officer safety are key parts of the programme.

Community involvement in the force's training programme is a vital component and includes as examples: working with staff from the Shelter as an exercise about a drunken person; working with DVS in respect of road checks and Construction and Use offences.

2. No. This is because these centres are now closed and the National Policing Improvement Agency (formerly Centrex) is no longer responsible for providing any national police foundation training. To ensure an independent verification of the progress oftherecruits trained in house, the States of Jersey Police have an arrangement with the Police Service of Northern Ireland to assess and report on each course at its conclusion.
3. New officers first gain some experience of another Police Force when, at the end of their foundation course they travel to Belfast, where they undertake and are assessed on a series of practical tasks. These tasks are used to validate the training conducted locally, as mentioned above. Whilst there, local officers also gain a valuable insight into the sensitivities of policing diverse communities particularly in the case of Belfast.

The States of Jersey Police regularly send officers away on training courses to the United Kingdom and elsewhere. For example, new CID officers undertake their initial CID training course in United Kingdom. Senior Investigating Officers also attend courses in the United Kingdom. The States of Jersey Police is aware of the advantages and benefits of receiving such training and linking into the relevant experience available in the United Kingdom. These are only two examples of the many courses States of Jersey Police officers attend in the United Kingdom.

Some States of Jersey Police officers have undertaken secondments to various UK forces to develop either specialist skills or gain a wider experience of policing. For example, the States of Jersey Police have regularly provided assistance to Dorset Police by sending a specialist search team to assist with their policing operation for political party conferences.

The force is committed to developing staff to provide the best possible policing service to the Island, as well as providing opportunities for senior officers to develop and compete for senior positions locally.

4. The foundation course focuses on Jersey Law which is, after all, the law in force in the Island where they will police. This is a considerable advantage over previous UK-based training which taught recruits English Law, requiring themto be effectively re-trained in Jersey Law upon their return. Nonetheless, Jersey Law often relies on the jurisprudence ofthe UK courts', and case studies take this into account.

2. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY:

Question

Can the Minister describe her political role, with particular regard to the relationship with the police, and the concept of political and public accountability?

Answer

In order to understand the complex nature of police accountability, it is necessary to map out the terrain and to highlight a number of themes.

From the outset it is essential to understand that "accountability" and "control" should not be confused.

Accountability: This involves having to account for what you do. Built into the legal, organisational and political frameworks are constraints on the exercise of police discretion and these provide forms of accountability at each level.

Control: This implies being directed and restricted in what you do. Control of the Police is both undesirable and inappropriate in a democratic society. Police powers which provide safety and security could if carried to excess begin to deny freedom. This is the paradox of police governance. Stark demonstrations of where the Police have been required to carry out the directions of the dominant political regime are provided by Nazi Germany and South Africa, and there are other examples from around the world. The delicate balance that must exist between our security and our freedom is the paradox of police governance.

Executive powers of direction and control over the Police would leave the Police not directly answerable to the community or the States, but to the government of the day. Former Police Commissioner Robert Mark warned that the danger of subversion of the operational independence and thus the impartiality of the Police is that the operational role of the Police could be dictated by one or other political faction or party.[1]

Separation of powers: There is a need to balance the unwarranted exercise of police power with mechanisms to enable their effective operation. The separation of powers is the way that freedom and security are reconciled. The role of the Police is to provide safety and security but the price for this is some loss of freedom in terms of political direction. Clearly it is necessary for the Police to maintain degrees of independence from Government direction as there may be occasions when they are investigating Government members or departments.

The notion of the separation of powers and police operational independence has a long history and can only be understood in terms of the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974, custom and practice and legal opinions of the Law Officers on issues such as the Chief Officer's employment status. Together they provide the three main sources of checks and balances on police powers. The first is legal such as the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974; Police Procedures and Criminal Evidence Law (PPCE) and the various codes under the Law. Secondly there are organisational constraints which are provided through Police discipline and force orders. Thirdly are political constraints which are provided by the Minister.

Legal accountability: In one sense the police chief' is a legal entity as well as a person. His primary responsibility is to the law. The Law Officers have opined that the Police Chief, and indeed all sworn police officers, are not "employees" but when sworn in assume a distinct legal status which holds them semi-detached from direct government control in operational matters. This is common practice in jurisdictions operating within the traditions of democracy all of which see a need to have measures in place which provide reassurance that the Police service (and other areas of criminal justice such as the prosecutions service and the courts) cannot be manipulated for political purposes. Laws are usually crafted which draw a distinction between accountability, which is seen as desirable, and control, which is not.

The nearest we have to a written philosophical framework in Jersey is paragraph 7.3.2 of the first Clothier report which stated:

"A society is entitled to tell its Chief Officers of Police what is required of them and to make sure they do it. It should abstain from telling Chief Officers how to do it because that is a matter for their professional expertise."

It is probably right to say that subsequent Law Officers' opinion may be read as taking a somewhat more robust view of operational independence than Clothier but nevertheless the principle is the same. If traditional freedoms are to be maintained a Police service needs to be politically accountable but free from day to day political control, particularly in matters of investigation and arrest. There also need to be safeguards against indirect influence such as the ability to interfere in human resource issues and decisions to demote or transfer officers.

So long as everyone has a broad understanding of the proper principles which underpin this thinking and the place of legitimate operational independence in a framework of good governance there will be few occasions when the detailed provisions of the law would need to be invoked. I will now touch briefly on this formal legal framework.

Formal legal accountability is set out in Article 9 of the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974. Article 9(3) provides that the Police Chief is responsible to the Minister for the administration, discipline, training and organisation of the force (but curiously not  its performance). Under the law the Minister has powers to suspend the Police Chief but he/she can only be removed from office by a meeting of the States as a whole (Article 9(2)).

In my view the exercise of such powers should be only in extremis and should have to be fully and objectively justified. Successive UK Home Secretaries have never accepted overall responsibility for and control of policing. They have been reluctant to constrain the operational independence of the Police. Rather there have been examples where the Home Secretary has reinforced that operational independence. For example, the UK Home Secretary gave Chief Constables permission to by-pass police authorities over the refusal of some Chief Constables to obey instructions from their local police authority not to purchase plastic bullets. Also in the UK, the Chief Constable can decline to give a report to his police authority if he thinks it will not be in the public's interest to do so, or if he thinks such a report is not needed for the Police Authority's exercise of its duties.

Here in Jersey everything should be done to avoid getting into a position where such draconian powers might be exercised. The bottom line, as a matter of law, is that if the Home Affairs Minister cannot resolve any differences then it requires a full meeting of the States to suspend or remove the Chief Officer.

Internal organisational responsibility: In addition to their primary responsibility under the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974, the Police are answerable also to the internal disciplinary regulations of the force. The introduction of the States of Jersey Police Professional Standards Unit has further enhanced accountability in this area.

Political accountability:  This is a form of indirect accountability' because of the distinct operational autonomy of the Police. What happens routinely is that the force drafts an annual business plan which seeks to align priorities with resources. This is presented to the Minister for agreement and thereafter constitutes a political mandate to act within the parameters of the plan. All plans need to be flexible to respond to operational priorities and political involvement is sustained by a programme of regular meetings with the Minister to seek agreement on issues which would benefit from a political view. The Police Chief also meets with the Chief Minister and provides a confidential briefing on matters affecting the security of the island. As well as the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel some States members take a close interest in policing issues and correspond directly with the Chief Officer as well as asking questions of the Minister in the States. This process enables the wider political community to influence police priorities and address constituents' concerns.

Public accountability: The principle of public accountability as a further safeguard is important. It has been appropriate for the Police to seek public accountability through the following:

1. Regular meetings between the Police and key stakeholders to discuss matters of joint interest eg The Connétable of St. Helier and the executive of the Honorary Police Association.
2. Soundings of the non-political community are taken through a rolling programme of customer questionnaires. Information from this source is used to fine-tune policy and determine priorities for the next year.
3. The media are an important source of public scrutiny and accountability.

There are additional external bodies providing further oversight of SOJP activities. Firstly, the islands' independent Police Complaints Authority exercises close oversight of professional standards issues and complaints against officers and reports annually to the States. Secondly, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary provides independent detailed advice to the Minister on how operational accountability is working in practice.

In accordance with particular operational requirements other agencies may be involved in providing oversight and ensuring appropriate accountability. For example, in the historic abuse inquiry the ACPO Homicide Working Group and the National Policing Improvement Agency have been overseeing the phase of the inquiry at Haut de la Garenne and have stated that they see the operation there as an example of best practice.

Financial accountability: The Chief Officer, Home Affairs, rather than the Police Chief, is the accounting officer legally responsible. He monitors significant areas of expenditure, carrying out early checks and regular review to ensure best value. Additional input on the financial aspects of the inquiry at Haut de la Garenne is being supplemented by the ACPO Homicide Working Group. They have said that the Senior Investigating Officer in the historic abuse inquiry should continue to consider the financial implications and would be failing in his duty if he did not do so.

Finally, I offer a few thoughts which have been fed into the new draft Police Law. It will set up a Police Authority to improve accountability of the Police. Much current good practice, the annual plan, the joint working protocols with the Honorary Police, and the ability of the Minister to call in an inspectorate to address any concerns will be formally incorporated in the law. It will also make clear that the Minister can call the force to account for performance. It will however include measures intended to protect day to day operational independence in matters of operational deployment. My belief is that the law would not pass the good governance' test if it were otherwise.

3. SENATOR J.L. PERCHARD OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE CONDUCT OF THE DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:

Question

"Will the Minister advise whether the Deputy Chief Officer of Police is under investigation by detectives from Devon and Cornwall Police for alleged abuse of authority and if so, when did the investigation begin and when is it expected to be concluded?"

Answer

I believe that the question refers to complaints from persons affected by anti –corruption investigations led by the Deputy Chief Officer. Devon and Cornwall Police began their investigation in November 2007. Two of the persons complaining are former police officers who left the force in consequence of those investigations. I was advised that a request for an investigation by an outside force was a legal requirement in the circumstances and accordingly Devon & Cornwall police were asked to assist. For legal reasons their enquiries are not fully complete but all matters which have been concluded at this time have resulted in findings that the complaints are unsubstantiated and in some cases vexatious. The investigations have been overseen by the Police Complaints Authority.

4. SENATOR J.L. PERCHARD OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE FRAGMENT FOUND IN FEBRUARY 2008 AT HAUT DE LA GARENNE:

Question

Will the Minister inform the Assembly who informed the States of Jersey Police that the fragment, found in February 2008 under a stairwell at Haut de la Garenne, was not bone and the date that this information was received by the Police?

Answer

The laboratory informed the States of Jersey Police on 31st March 2008, for the first time, that they had some concern about what the item was. Over the next few days they continued to say that "we do not think this is bone unless it is very old bone." Nothing more definitive than this was given.

On Saturday 17th May the laboratory were asked if they were now saying it was definitively not bone. They said that they did not believe it to be bone but if we wanted a definitive answer then we should have it re-examined. To date, although the opinion is now less conclusive, the States of Jersey Police have not had a definitive contradiction of the original belief.

5. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE ERECTION OF A FERRIS WHEEL ON THE WATERFRONT: Question

"Would the Chief Minister outline the nature of, and who was included in, the consultation process associated with the erection of the Ferris wheel on Waterfront property administered by WEB and would he advise whether any financial implications arise for either the States or WEB?"

Answer

The Waterfront Enterprise Board was approached by Paul Talbot, the organiser and co-ordinator of the event, to place the wheel at Les Jardins de la Mer on public land that is administered by WEB.

A condition of the approval to use the site was that the organiser obtained all necessary consents.

Mr. Talbot duly received approvals and support from Jersey Airport, Jersey Harbours, Planning and Environment Department and the Tourism Department.

The Waterfront Enterprise Board has levied a fee of £7,000 for the use of the site for a period of 18 weeks. The organiser is responsible for all operating and re-instatement costs together with all necessary insurances (Public Liability insurance cover = £10m).

6. DEPUTY I.J. GORST OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING ROAD WORKS AT RUE DE MAUPERTUIS, ST. CLEMENT:

Question

Will the Minister advise –

1. the purpose of the road works on Rue de Maupertuis, St. Clement? Answer

The recent roadworks in Rue du Maupertuis were intended to lay a foul sewer connection from an existing sewer on the south side of Rue du Maupertius across the road to connect the new development site on Field 40 to main drains.

Question

2. the length of time to date that the work has taken? Answer

The works were abandoned shortly after commencement as the existing sewer is very deep and the ground was found to be very poor and there was concern for the integrity of adjacent utility services and structures, including the road.

Question

3. the scope of the work undertaken to date? Answer

The original work consisted of excavating down onto the existing sewer to connect a new branch pipe and lay this back to the boundary of the development site. In addition to this, an existing length of downstream foul sewer required upgrading as a result of the additional flows from the new development and it was intended that this would be carried out within the next couple of months, at the same time as a surface water extension from the entrance to Le Squez to serve the site was to be laid in Rue du Maupertuis. Given the problems with the ground in the area, a new proposal is being considered which will entail the development site pumping from the site along Rue du Maupertuis to the Public foul pumping station at the entrance to Le Marais estate. This will avoid having to upgrade the existing sewer and hence, any deep excavation in Rue du Maupartuis, although the surface water extension, which is at a much shallower depth, is still required.

4. the expected length of time to completion? Answer

The estimated time for the carrying out of the surface water extension from the Le Squez entrance to the development site plus the laying of a pumping main from the development site back to the Public pumping station by the Le Marais entrance is likely to take approximately 10 weeks. It is anticipated that this work will shortly be put out to tender with work commencing as soon as a contractor is appointed.

Question

5. the full cost of the work? Answer

Until tenders are received for the work, the full cost will not be known. Question

6. who will be liable to meet the cost of the work?

Answer

All costs are being met by the developer of the Field 40 site as they are works required to serve the Field 40 development.

Question

7. what advice or comment was given to the Planning and Environment Department in relation to drainage issues when the original planning application was being considered for the development in Field 40 St. Clement ?

Answer

The comment sheet sent to Planning for works required to cater for this development is attached to this document.

Question

(viii) whether the department will undertake to review fully the way it approaches drainage issues on new or proposed developments?

Answer

The Comments sheet submitted for this development clearly states that sewer upgrades and extensions are required if this development goes ahead and that the developer is responsible for the funding of these works. It is for any developer of new sites to establish at the outset of a project the drainage requirements for both on-site works and the connection to the public sewer. This requirement was clearly stated on the TTS comments sheet provided to the planning department as part of the original planning application in November 2005. Consequently, I do not see any requirement for any change to departmental procedures but in conjunction with the planning department, I am always happy to review processes to ensure we provide the best possible service to the public.

7. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING PROSECUTIONS FOR THE POSSESSION OF MACHINE GUNS:

Question

"Following statements by the States of Jersey Police regarding the alleged possession of machine guns (including a single-shot machine gun) by Islanders, would the Minister advise how many successful prosecutions, if any, there have been?"

Answer

In the two years since comment was made regarding the alleged possession of machine guns I can confirm that the States of Jersey Police have undertaken 23 separate investigations into incidents involving potential firearms offences. Of these 23, two investigations have involved firearms believed capable of discharging more than one round with one single pull of the trigger. Of these two, neither resulted in a prosecution: one was found to involve a de-activated firearm and the other will not be proceeded with on the advice of the Law Officers Department.

In total, 27 individual persons have been investigated for firearms offences of whom 13 have been convicted before the Royal or Magistrates Courts; 5 have been formally dealt with through the Parish Hall system; 2 have been charged and await the outcome of their cases before the Court; 1 has been charged but the charge was not proceeded with; 3 were considered to have committed no crimes after the investigation and there are 3 current ongoing investigations awaiting finalisation or a formal decision to prosecute.

Of those cases investigated, the firearms involved have included 3 machine guns; rifles; shotguns; revolvers; handguns; air rifles and air pistols.

8. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING MEDIA STATEMENTS MADE BY THE DEPUTY CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:

Question

"Would the Minister advise members whether she believes that statements made in the media by the Deputy Chief Officer have always been accurate and proportionate and, if not, does she consider that he should be suspended from duty whilst investigations into his conduct are carried out?"

Answer

The Minister has asked the Chief Officer, States of Jersey Police for a written report which will cover information conveyed to the media. The Minister is therefore unable to answer this particular question until the report has been considered.

9. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE SUPER-FILL' AT LA COLLETTE:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether Planning permission was required for the superfill' at La Collette and , if so -

1. What were the conditions applied in relation to its height, visibility when viewed from the east of the Island and its potential to interrupt the view of St. Aubin's Bay?

Answer

I can confirm that Planning Permission was required for the superfilling at La Collette and what has occurred has done so in the context of the relevant approvals for the site.

Planning Permit 17742 (18 October 1991) granted planning permission for the formation of a breakwater that created the La Collette II reclamation project. Planning Permit 17742/B (12 September 1995) gave permission for infilling of the area created by the breakwater and allowed for superfilling over and above the height of the breakwater where the site was to be used for the disposal of ash from the incinerator at Bellozanne. This was located on the north-eastern area of the site and allowed for superfilling up to 8m above the level of the top of the breakwater.

Subsequently Planning Permit 17742/C (18 October 1996) granted permission for landscape tipping along the north eastern edge of the La Collette site – again over the ash pit areas - up to a maximum height of some 10m above the level of the top of the new sea wall.

As detailed above, a condition was imposed limiting the superfill to 10m above the height of the top of the newly formed seawall. However none of the Permits have specific conditions relating to the superfill's visibility from the east or its potential to interrupt the view of St. Aubin's Bay. These decisions were taken prior to my election as a State's Member but I am certain that these issues would have been taken into consideration in assessing the applications by the then Planning and Environment Committee.

Question

2. What discussions, if any, have taken place between him and the Minister for Transport and Technical Services in relation tothis matter?

Answer

The existing superfill already has planning permission so I have not had any discussions with my Ministerial colleague about the current situation. However we have had discussions in relation to the proposed new Energy from Waste Plant (EfW).

The Outline Planning approval for the EfW (PP/2007/0050) requires a significant landscape bund to be constructed between the EfW and the bay at Havre des Pas. It is anticipated that the height of the superfill will increase to 14m above the level of the sea wall to benefit the visual impact of the EFW. This increase will be contoured and shaped so as to form a natural looking feature. My architectural advisors have been engaged in the landscaping issues, the final details of which will be contained in the forthcoming planning application for the chosen scheme.

10. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ELECTIONEERING BY PUBLIC EMPLOYEES:

Question

"Would the Chief Minister confirm that public employees campaigning for election are entitled to campaign during vacation periods and during Time off in Lieu'?

If limitations or restrictions exist would the Chief Minister confirm that they are consistent with the European Convention on Human Rights and other relevant legislation?"

Answer

Under the Regulations which amended the Employment of States of Jersey Employees (Jersey) Law 2005 and which were approved by the States last September, a public employee whose post is classified as ''politically eligible'' can participate in political activities, including campaigning for election, at any time outside of work. This includes vacation periods and 'time off in lieu.'

Pursuant to the above provisions, if a politically eligible employee wishes to stand for election to the States, he or she is required to take unpaid special leave of absence from the date they are formally nominated as a candidate until the date of swearing in as a States Member if successful or at a date not exceeding four weeks after the election if unsuccessful.

Whilst it is not necessary or appropriate to lodge a statement of compatibility in relation to the Regulations, it is believed that such Regulations (and their application) are consistent with Convention rights and other relevant legislation.

11. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING YOUNG OFFENDERS BEING PLACED AT H.M.P. LA MOYE:

Question

When will the practice of placing young people in HMP La Moye cease? Answer

Currently, any 15 – 18 year old children sentenced to custody serve their sentence at HM Prison La Moye. Boys are located in the Young Offenders Institution (YOI), which contains male young offenders aged under 21 years; girls are placed in the female wing of the prison which contains prisoners of all age groups. Greenfields Secure Unit holds children of both genders up to school leaving age who have not been convicted by the Courts but who have to be secured for their own safety or the safety of others. Both establishments contain vulnerable individuals as well as those who pose significant management problems, but the numbers involved are usually very low.

The difficulty for the corporate parent at present is that whilst Greenfields may be the best place for a 16 year old offender, they could be sharing that accommodation with an 11 or 12 year old who is extremely vulnerable. This can pose similar difficulties to those which arise when a fifteen year old offender is placed in the YOI with a 20 year old. A series of different establishments for different age groups, needs and genders might result in some offenders serving sentences in solitary confinement, which again would not be acceptable. There are no simple answers.

The Corporate Parent is considering proposals which would allow the placement in either the YOI or Greenfields of school age children aged 15 plus according to their maturity, risk and vulnerability. Before making a final decision on this issue the Corporate Parent also wishes to study the findings of Andrew Williamson and the Howard League for Penal Reform who have been asked to comment on this issue.

12. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE SUCCESS OF GREENFIELDS:

Question

Is Greenfields fulfilling its original objectives and if not, why not ? Answer

I do believe that Greenfields is fulfilling its original objectives.

The new Greenfields opened in October 2006 following a recommendation in the Kathie Bull Report which stated unequivocally that the old facility, namely Les Chenes, was inappropriate as a secure facility for 11 to 16 year old children.

Greenfields is responsible for caring for two groups of children. Firstly, those children (within this age group) who are remanded there from the criminal justice system here in Jersey and secondly, children (within this age group) who place themselves at risk through destructive lifestyle choices.

The new Greenfields conforms to the mainland's Care Standards, which is an important measure of the quality of care provided. In a recent public statement, Andrew Williamson – who of course is completing his Inquiry into certain aspects of our Children's Services – has commented on the high quality provision which Greenfields represents.

13. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS:

Question

How is the maximum waiting time limit of 6 months for treatment calculated? Are all specialities conforming to this limit? What exceptions exist and why?

Answer

The maximum waiting time for those patients on waiting lists for elective surgical procedures and certain diagnostic procedures is three months and not six months, as the Deputy states. As this is the maximum waiting time, it should be noted that the majority of patients are seen within weeks and not months. Some procedures have such low waiting times that the operations are scheduled at a time that is mutually convenient to the surgeon and to the patient.

All of the work – and indeed, all of the public and media statements made on the subject of waiting times – has focussed on these elective surgical procedures and certain diagnostic procedures.

The success in reducing waiting times is in large part due to the pivotal role of the Waiting List Project Group – which comprises of consultants, senior nurses and operational managers. Given the success to date (as above), the work of this Group is now moving to examine and reduce the outpatient waiting time – the aim being to reduce this to a maximum of three months. I shall be receiving a progress report on the Group's work in this regard in the autumn of this year.

Whilst in many specialties the concept of reducing the outpatient waiting time (i.e. the time from the GP writing a letter of referral to the patient receiving an outpatient consultation) translates well, in others it does not. A good example of the latter is diabetes. A patient might be referred to the Diabetic Centre, who may see a nurse practitioner first – or may require diagnostic tests undertaken by another specialist. The last health care practitioner a diabetic patient might see is the consultant – the consultant focussing his time on the most complex cases which require his expertise. Notwithstanding this, the aim is to reduce all waiting to all health care professionals where this is possible in a small island context.

Another example of patients having to wait longer than three months is in the field of musculo- skeletal medicine. Specifically, Jersey has two eminent orthopaedic specialists who visit the Island to undertake specialist shoulder surgery as they visit every six months and by definition, patients must wait more than three months – although there is the option of an eligible patient either visiting the specialist on the mainland or seeing the other of these two specialists.

One of the characteristics of small islands is that they have a high number of single handed' consultants – in other words, one consultant per specialty. This obviously causes difficulties to the continuation of the service if that consultant is absent for some reason.

14. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE APPOINTMENT OF LOCAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS:

Question

What procedures are in place to ensure that local candidates are in place to compete for the position of Air Traffic Controller?

Answer

An Air Traffic Controller is a role that is highly specialised and one which requires extensive training and development.

Jersey Airport has a programme in place to train ATCOs (at present there are four trainees on a three year programme), but, from time to time, it is necessary to supplement the team with experienced qualified staff.

The ATC unit does not currently have its full complement of ATCO as not all trainees reach the required standard. The situation is further complicated by a requirement to release a number of experienced controllers to develop and deliver the new ATC centre.

In order to correct the situation the ATS management in conjunction with the Airport Operations Director has formulated the following plan.

1. To introduce a regular and structured liaison with Island schools and careers officers toraise the profile of ATC as a dynamic and rewarding career. This can be achieved by regular school visits and by better promotion of the opportunities available. This plan will enable us to develop our requirement earlier and to correctly service the unit with the trained staff needed.
2. In the short term experienced ATCO are needed in order to deliver trained staff in the shortest possible time. This will re-establish the unit manning at the correct levels and add the flexibility needed to allow the current staff to deliver the new ATC building in 2010. The only option available to deliver staff in this timescale is J cat external recruitment.

Posts are advertised both locally and in the UK. Preference will be given to any locally qualified ATCO who meets the essential criteria for the post, whether currently residing in Jersey or not.

15. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF A REPORT INTO THE RESIGNATION OF MR. S. BELLWOOD:

Question

When will the Report on the circumstances surrounding the resignation of Mr. S. Bellwood be published?

Answer

This report, following an independent investigation by Professor Robert Upex, is expected to be presented to the States Employment Board during the first half of June, 2008, and will be published soon after we receive it.

16. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING PAYMENTS TO AIRLINES TO OPERATE LONDON ROUTES:

Question

Can the Minister confirm whether an agreement is in existence in the latest calendar year to pay an amount in the region of £400,000 to any airline to operate any one particular service to a major London Airport ?

Answer

The Economic Development Department operates a policy to develop new routes to and from Jersey. A sophisticated and sustainable network is absolutely vital to the Island's economy and Economic Development and Jersey Airport work closely together to ensure the development of the network.

This policy is proving to be highly successful and has contributed to the increase in arrivals over the past 18 months. Air arrivals in 2007 were a solid 4.3% greater than in 2006, the first significant growth for many years. Air arrivals to 31st April were 8.5% up on the same four month period in 2007.

Any airline wishing to start a new route may apply to the Department for support to help launch that route and these applications are subject to a rigorous net economic benefit analysis.

Any resultant financial element of the applications incentives that the Department and the Airport provide are of course commercial in confidence but can be examined by Scrutiny or the PAC to evaluate whether they provide Value for Money.

17. DEPUTY  S.S.P.A. POWER  OF  ST.  BRELADE  OF THE  MINISTER  FOR EDUCATION,  SPORT  AND  CULTURE REGARDING  THE  PURCHASE OF FERRIES BY JERSEY HERITAGE TRUST:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether Jersey Heritage Trust purchased two ferries in the sum of £500,000 for the Castle Ferry service and, if so, outline all the reasons for this purchase?

Answer

The  amphibious  vehicle  service  to  Elizabeth  Castle  was  previously  operated  privately  under contract with the Jersey Heritage Trust in return for an annual fee payable by the Trust. I can confirm that the Jersey Heritage Trust has now elected to take over the running of the service itself rather than to pay a third party. An agreement was reached, which includes but is not limited to the purchase of the vehicles, to facilitate this arrangement. I have asked the Jersey Heritage Trust to supply me with a report into the background to the purchase and it would be premature for me to comment further on the detail in advance of having received that report.

18. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING WAGE INFLATION:

Question

Following his written response of 13th May to question 3873 when he stated that many low to middle income earners will see a cut in their income tax', will the Minister advise what figure he has for the percentage or absolute reduction in tax bills for those on marginal rate of income tax?

Answer

The reduction, and the percentage reduction, in tax bills depends on individual circumstances.

Examples of total tax cuts, in monetary terms, over the three years 2007, 2008 and 2009, resulting from increases in exemption limits, are:

Single person £374

Married man £598 Single person, over age 63 £414 Married couple, over age 63 £684 For one child not in further education £135 For one child in further education £270

As a further example of how generous these increases in exemption limits, together with child allowance  have  been,  in  2006,  a  married  couple,  both  working,  with  two  children  (one  at University) and paying mortgage interest of £7,500, would not have become liable to income tax until  their  income  exceeded  £37,180.  Due  to  these  increases  in  exemption  limits  and  child allowance, that very same married couple would not become liable to income tax in 2009 until their income exceeds £40,890.

19. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING REDUCTIONS IN TAX BILLS FOR THOSE ON MARGINAL RATES OF INCOME TAX:

Question

1. "Does the Minister have figures for 2006 and 2007 relating to the average annual bonus per FTE in the Finance Sector (given that in 2005, according to the Jersey Economic Digest 2006, it was £5,600, raising the average weekly earnings figure from £710 to £820)?
2. Does the Minister accept that the rateof wage inflation is driven by competition from the Finance sector and if so, what proposals, if any, does he have to curb wage claims in the Private sector, and the Finance sector in particular, in order to give his anti-inflation strategy any possibility of success?"

Answer

1. The estimate ofthe average bonus paid per FTE working in the finance sector in Jersey for 2006wasapproximately£5,400per annum. This figure is derived from data collected for the2006 Survey of Financial Institutions. The figure for 2007 will be available on2nd July 2008, when the 2007 survey of Financial Institutions will be published.
2. It is important to make a distinction between wage increases that reflect productivity improvements and those that do not. Wage increases based on productivity improvementsare an important way in which Islanders can increase their standard of living and directly contribute to the Strategic Plan objectives of economic growth and good employment opportunities for all. Wage increases that do not reflect productivity improvementspose a real riskof adding to inflationary pressure in the economy. Wage inflation in Jersey could result fromof a whole hostof factors that combine to influence both the supply and demand for labour in the Island.

The Minister does not see it as government's role to curb wage claims in the private sector and rather that the government should focus on facilitating productivity improvements across the economy. This will allow employees to earn more through higher wages, generate economic growth and improve the standard of living for Islanders without increasing inflationary pressure.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding a possible conflict between the role of Senator Perchard as Assistant Minister in charge of Children's Services and his membership of the Chief Minister's Advisory Group relating to the Haut de la Garenne affair:

Does the Minister consider that any conflict exists between the role of Senator Perchard as Assistant Minister in charge of Children's Services and his membership of the Chief Minister's Advisory Group relating to the Haut de la Garenne affair?

Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

As Minister for Health and Social Services I am ultimately accountable for ensuring that the children in our care are safe and free from danger. I have delegated responsibility for social services to Senator Jim Perchard in whom I have complete confidence and I do not feel that his role on the Advisory Group conflicts him in any way. In fact, I believe the opposite. Can anyone imagine what it was like to be within our care system when the Island was subjected to the media frenzy following the discovery a child's remains earlier this year? Can you imagine the psychological damage potentially caused by stories of mass murder, mass graves and torture chambers? Can you imagine the effect on former residents who were led to believe that they were perhaps lucky to be alive? As Assistant Minister responsible for children the Senator is in a position to provide valuable input to the group.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge that he has utterly missed the point, and that it is the role of the Assistant Minister to remain utterly independent of what is going on elsewhere and not to be identified with a body which looks increasingly like an official spin?

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I am very sorry that the Deputy feels that way about the advisory body. The Advisory Group was to provide advice at a time when we needed input from the people in positions who knew what was going on. The Senator was in a position to know what was happening in the children's service at that time and provide valuable input to the group.

2. Senator S. Syvret:

Does the Minister for Health and Social Services not consider that his position and that of his Assistant Minister is palpably absurd? There can be no other functioning democracy on the face of the planet whereby the politicians with responsibility for child protection would be publicly, proactively and repeatedly attacking a police investigation into child abuse.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

The Assistant Minister and myself have never attacked the police investigation into child abuse. Where we have raised questions was when the discovery of a child's remains was announced and indeed it was the Chief Minister that phoned me up on the Saturday to say that a child's body had been found. This is obviously not the case and I do not want to dwell on it at this time. All I would say is that we do have victims of child abuse out there and I am surprised that the Senator would want to make political capital out of it.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister, given what is perceived by many as a grave error, now acknowledge that the Assistant Minister should not be party to any groups whose role could be misconstrued and that he should remain as a totally independent person fostering the best in children's services?

Senator B.E. Shenton:

No, what I would say to the Deputy is that in future any of these groups, if they are set up, should be set up with terms of reference that are distributed to the whole States Chamber so that we can all fully understand what the group has been set up for and how the Members have been chosen to be on that group.

2. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the cessation of milk deliveries for all Parishes outside St. Helier :

I should perhaps say that this question has been bouncing around the Ministries because I originally asked it of the Minister for Social Security, but the Minister for Economic Development has gallantly agreed to take it on.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I was just about to ask my Assistant Minister, Constable Fisher - with responsibility for milk - to take this [Laughter].

Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Given that the milk deliveries have stopped for all Parishes outside St. Helier what steps, if any, are being taken to ensure that housebound or disabled pensioners can still have milk delivered?

Connétable G.W.J. Fisher of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):

I do not see myself as a knight in shining armour gallantly riding to the rescue, but I do want to make the point that I do not believe this question is correctly addressed to the Economic Development Department because it is not an Economic Development issue. It is more a welfare issue, income support or possibly a health issue, but it certainly is not an economic development issue. I will do my best to answer the question from the information I have. The Deputy will be aware that Jersey Dairy ceased its home delivery in 2005 due to the significant losses it was incurring on that operation. One employee who was made redundant as a result of that decision decided to set up his own home delivery service called Sunrise Deliveries and took on the housebound or disabled pensioners as part of his customer base. Due to the ever-increasing costs of delivery this company was losing money on delivering to the country Parishes and has discontinued this service. Jersey Dairy does not have the resource to resume this loss-making service. Fresh milk is just one element of a normal shopping basket. Those on low incomes with personal care needs receive additional sums under income support to cover those needs which would include paying for deliveries from shops offering home delivery services if they are unable to shop themselves.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

That really is not an answer. I wonder if - seeing that the Member does not believe that it should be for Economic Development - perhaps in his capacity as a member of the Comité des Connétable s he can comment on this? Perhaps Economic Development could combine the school milk deliveries with the deliveries to housebound pensioners so that the 2 can still carry on. Would the Assistant Minister care to comment?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

No, I would not really. I would have to think about that.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Is the Assistant Minister aware that the delivery of school milk forms an integral part of the capacity of this particular entrepreneur to continue to deliver this valuable social service to many pensioners on the Island and that school milk funding must continue?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I think that is a different subject all together. We are going to be debating school milk later on. This question is about deliveries to the housebound and disabled elderly people and I do not suppose any of them attend school.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Assistant Minister is obviously not aware that Sunrise Deliveries has taken over the school milk delivery service and this formed an integral part of the functioning of Sunrise Deliveries and without the school milk it is likely that this particular service may cease.

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I do not think that is, with respect, a matter for the Assistant Minister arising out of this question.

4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

In view of the uncertainty as to which department should be dealing with this, can I have an assurance from the Assistant Minister that he will meet with the Ministers for Health and Social Security with a view to ironing-out this problem because clearly there is a problem and the sooner it is dealt with the better?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I do not really see that as my role. I think the position should be that the question needs to be directed at one or other or both of the Ministers mentioned.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

In that case, will the Assistant Minister on the part of the Minister agree to take this back to the Council of Ministers and deal with this issue which I brought to the House a year ago: and now here it is again? Will he take it to the Council of Ministers?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I may be wrong, but I think where Deputy Southern is referring to school milk which is [Interruption] He is not? He tells me he is not referring to school milk. Nevertheless, it is not an Economic Development issue and I do not think anybody can say that it is. To me, we are responsible in Economic Development for the development of the industry - the dairy industry - which does not include beneficial delivery of school milk to people who are in an unfortunate situation.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

If I may, the question was will he agree to take it to the Council of Ministers to resolve the issue? The Bailiff :

I think the answer to that, I heard, was: "No".

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

On a point of order, I wonder if I could ask why it was not possible to deliver this question to somebody who has responsibility for this because it does seem to be going around in circles and no satisfactory answer is forthcoming.

The Bailiff :

Any Member can ask any question of the Assistant Minister for Economic Development which relates to his functions. What does not relate to the Assistant Minister's functions is school milk.

7. Senator F.H. Walker :

Can I endorse the comments of the Assistant Minister and say this is clearly not an issue for Economic Development and ask him if he will accept my invitation to discuss this with me so that we can resolve this matter and ensure that we do allocate the whole question of milk deliveries to disabled pensioners to the appropriate Minister?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I would be delighted to speak with the Chief Minister.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the purchase of amphibious vehicles operating to Elizabeth Castle by the Jersey Heritage Trust:

Under what circumstances has the Jersey Heritage Trust purchased the amphibious vehicles operating to Elizabeth Castle?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

I have asked the Jersey Heritage Trust for a full report on the circumstance of the purchase and will be able to answer the question in detail once I have this report.

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

The route to Elizabeth Castle is an extremely challenging route. With the new amphibious vehicles there have been a catalogue of incidents - surely on this kind of route safety must be absolutely paramount. Does the Minister not agree?

Senator M.E. Vibert : Absolutely.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister outline how the accountability of the Trust to him is carried out in practice and what kind of reporting relationship he has with the Trust?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

We have a Service Level Agreement with the Jersey Heritage Trust and other cultural providers in return for being the purveyors of the grant to the Trust. We have regular reports on both financial and on the progress that they are making against the Service Level Agreement. Of course, as the Deputy is fully aware, as he was the one who made the point so forcibly in the cultural strategy, these are arm-length organisations that need to be able to operate themselves. The Jersey Heritage Trust was set up by the States and there are a number of States Members as trustees on the Jersey Heritage Trust. So, while we pass on the grant; help where we can; make sure there is a Service Level Agreement; and that the Trust meets that agreement, the Trust is an independent body and is not part of the States. It is not a department of the States. My department does not decide what they buy and what they do not buy.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister, in this perfectly acceptable arms-length relationship he has, outline what approval he has given and what structures he has put in place so that at arms length he is absolutely assured that financial controls are as tight as they can humanly be?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

We receive regular reports from the Jersey Heritage Trust and other bodies on how their finances are going and I can assure you we are not lax in any way. The Deputy might remember how I took a stand, against quite considerable opposition, ensuring that the Jersey Opera House stuck to its budget and did not overspend. I do not think that we can be accused of not holding the bodies that we grant aiding to, to account.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can I, therefore, assume with the Minister's reassurances that there is absolutely no possibility that a purchase of £500,000 would escape his notice?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

It certainly has not escaped my notice which is why I have asked for a full report on it.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would it escape his notice in terms of normal reporting procedures?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

If I understood the question perhaps I could answer it.

6. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier :

I wonder if the Minister who has asked for a report into this incident would confirm that he will have the report published when it is complete.

Senator M.E. Vibert :

Absolutely. Obviously, I will be discussing with the Trust whether there is any commercial confidentiality in it, but I think it is very important that States Members have as much information as possible about it, including the fact that, of course, the amphibious vehicles under discussion are approved by the Marine and Coast Guard Agency and the Harbour Office.

7. The Deputy of St. Martin :

In an answer a few minutes ago the Minister said that this was not public money. Could I ask where the money is coming from for the Heritage Trust? Is it not part of public money so, therefore, the cost for the repayment does come from the taxpayer?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I believe if the Deputy listens back to any tapes I never said any such thing. I did not say this was not public money. I said the Jersey Heritage Trust is an independent body and we grant aid to it and it also gets a considerable amount of money and other income through its entrance charges at various bodies including, for example, an average of £320,000 per annum from Elizabeth Castle entrance fees. Yes, we give a substantial grant to the Jersey Heritage Trust and that is why we hold them to account. I will continue to hold them to account and that is why I have asked for a full report on this whole issue because I, like other States Members, want to be assured that this is being carried out correctly, that it is the right thing to do and that it has not been a misuse of any part of the grant or funding that goes to the Jersey Heritage Trust.

8. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :

Could the Minister please put a time limit on the issuing of the report and, again, I would like to ask if that report will be made public?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I have asked for the report as soon as possible and once I have it I would be looking to publish it in the same vein, and I would imagine that would be before the end of this month.

4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Chief Minister regarding the maintenance of the former Tourism Building:

Would the Chief Minister give assurances that the former Tourism Building will be kept by W.E.B. (Waterfront Enterprise Board) in a condition appropriate to its significance, status and role in the Island's history and that its current dilapidated state - with grass growing out of the roof gutters and peeling paintwork, evident during the recent Liberation Day celebrations - will be addressed?"

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

It is a matter of regret that these historic buildings have fallen into a temporary state of disrepair and I can assure the Deputy they will be fully restored by April 2009.

2.4.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Can the Chief Minister assure us that, for example, the weeds growing out of the gutter which were present, as Deputy Power mentioned, will be removed instantly?

Senator F.H. Walker :

I will be doing my level best to ensure that happens. [Laughter] I am not known for my gardening skills nor my ability up a ladder. I will not be doing it personally, but will be doing my best to ensure that it is done.

5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the publication of the Hazard Review Group Phase 2 report on La Collette Fuel Depot and Jersey Gas Facility:

On 15th January 2008 the Minister stated that the Hazard Review Group signed-off the phase 2 report on La Collette Fuel Depot and Jersey Gas Facility on 14th December 2007, that this report was due to be presented to the Council of Ministers on 24th January 2008 and, subject to approval, would be made public immediately after. Would the Minister update Members on whether or not this has occurred?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The report referred to by the Deputy "Land Use Planning Risk Assessment for La Collette Fuel Depot and Jersey Gas Facility" was considered and approved at the Council of Ministers meeting on 24th January 2008. This report was subsequently considered by the Minister for Planning and Environment on 3rd March 2008 and adopted as a supplementary planning guidance note. It was certainly my intention that the document would be available, but regrettably records from the Planning Department and the States Greffe indicate that when the Minister for Planning and Environment signed the Ministerial Decision on this matter the decision summary inadvertently indicated the accompanying report was to be classified as exempt. For this reason the report was not published alongside the Ministerial Decision itself when this was uploaded by the States Greffe on to the States official website in early March. The Minister has now indicated that the report should have been published at the time and I understand that steps are being taken to upload it alongside the decision summary.

2.5.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I wonder if the Minister would also be so kind as to provide members of the Environment Scrutiny Panel - and perhaps any other Members who wish a copy - with a hard copy of that report, please, because we have been waiting to see the contents.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

This is not really a matter for me, but I am sure that the Deputy and the Environment Scrutiny Panel may avail themselves of hard copy either from the Planning Department or the States Greffe.

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding tenders for the bus service contract:

Further to his reply to my question of 29th April regarding the likelihood of putting the bus service out to tender, would the Minister undertake to inform Members before his decision whether or not the re-tender takes effect in order that Members are not faced with a fait-accompli?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

In my answer to the Deputy on 29th April 2008, I stated at that time I had not yet made a decision as to whether the bus service will be put out to tender when the current contract expires in September 2009, but I stated and I quote: "I can assure the Deputy that I will inform States Members as soon as a decision has been made." This is still my intention and I will be making a statement under part K of today's agenda, as can be seen on the supplementary agenda on Members' desks.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Minister inform the House whether in the process of reaching his decision he took due account, for example, of the views of Scrutiny and of other people who had a strong interest in this particular issue?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I very much wish to be able to take due account of the views of the Scrutiny Panel and they have been in possession of the briefing statement that I gave to them, I believe now, for some 2 months. I have had an indication from the chairman of the panel that he does not agree necessarily with the approach I am taking, but regrettably despite laying down a number of deadlines I have had no response from the Scrutiny Panel, I understand because they wish further information from the department, some of which we simply have not been able to reply to or provide. In fact, Scrutiny were being advised as a matter of courtesy. In reality, the operation of the contract is an entirely executive issue.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Would the Minister not agree to inform Members that it was not the case that Scrutiny has been sitting on this for 2 months and, in fact, what had happened was the Minister had called Scrutiny into his confidence and has been meeting with the Minister and his department to look at this issue in quite a large amount of detail - specific detail - in relation to this contract; and what he is asserting this morning is trying to indicate some sort of onus upon Scrutiny for the delay when, in effect, what has happened is he has just disregarded the process altogether because he has got wind of the fact that we may not be agreeing with him and gone ahead and signed the deal?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

It has always been my intention to make an announcement at this particular States meeting. I have attempted to work with Scrutiny. Indeed, I have been before a Scrutiny Panel to discuss this matter, but I have also, in fairness to myself, laid down a series of deadlines for the chairman of the Scrutiny Panel because I simply wish to make the announcement today,, which I am going to do. I would have been extremely interested to have had a full amount of advice from the Scrutiny Panel, but frankly I just cannot keep waiting. At the end of the day there are some important benefits to the travelling public which the agreement that I have agreed will release and the reality is that continued waiting is simply not in the public interest.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Is it not the case that the reason the Minister has been waiting is due to the fact that his own department has not been able to furnish the Scrutiny Panel with the information that it requires to make a valued judgment on the issue that he has requested us to look into? The delay is not the Scrutiny Panel's fault; it is the department's fault for not having the information that the Scrutiny Panel requires to make a valued judgment.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The department has made every effort to provide information when Scrutiny Panel has requested it. The only information that has not been forthcoming are the most recent comparisons for the bus Connex annual figures and that was simply because it was decided that we were not effectively comparing like with like, and that was due largely to the integration of the service. We have been as co-operative with Scrutiny as we possibly can. I really cannot see how it takes over 8 weeks to analyse a 2-page briefing document. I did not ask Scrutiny for a full review of the entire bus service; I simply wanted their advice and their views on a 2-page briefing document. Why it has taken so long, and why so much information is required, I do not know. The department has attempted to assist where it can.

4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

It seems when the Minister answered my question he kindly reminded us of what he said on 29th April, but of course that was the reason why I put this whole question, because the Minister appears to have overlooked the fact that I am asking whether he would undertake to inform Members before his decision takes effect whereas on 29th April he advised us that he would advise us after his decision has taken effect. My query is will Members have some indication of which way the Minister intends to move before that decision is made because after the decision is made it is too late to change anything?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I have done my very best, I think, to be as courteous as possible to Deputy Baudains. The blunt fact is the short answer to his question is, no.

5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

I will be making some comments and asking questions in relation to the statement that the Minister for Transport and Technical Services is going to be making later during the day. Before that, could the Minister confirm a conversation with his Chief Officer - a timetable for the receipt of the comments from the Scrutiny Panel that the Minister has been working behind the scenes with in confidence - and that deadline was set for yesterday? The panel did meet yesterday. A letter was prepared and is wending its way to the department at this very moment. In fact, it should be there by now. Contrary to the remarks that he is making the Scrutiny Panel has not held up the decision making in any shape or form and would he confirm that?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I certainly would not. It is to the knowledge of my department and conveyed to myself that the Scrutiny Panel have been in a state of complete disarray as my department has attempted to establish quite when we were going to get a response to our request for their views. As I said, I have laid down a series of deadlines - the very latest deadline was by the end of the month and I was informed, and we have received information, that we would be getting the final response last week. The fact that it turned up yesterday is news to me because I was in the department until 6.30 p.m. yesterday and I have received nothing from the Environment Scrutiny Panel. Quite frankly, given the series of deadlines the Scrutiny Panel has had, if information has simply turned up today it really is far too late and I cannot be expected to keep hanging around waiting for views when in all seriousness it was out of courtesy that I made the initial contact anyway.

7. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding breast and prostate cancer screening programmes:

Will the Minister inform Members of the number of women attending the Health Department's free breast-screening programme and the annual cost and as there is no equivalent yet for men for prostate cancer, although it claims a similar number of lives, what steps, if any, is the Minister taking to address this inequality and what would the cost be to run a similar screening programme for men?

Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

I thank the Deputy of St. Martin for asking this question: it is obviously important that we raise the issue of prostate cancer whenever we can. Each year in Jersey about 4,000 women participate in the breast screening programme and given our current accounting system, a comprehensive budget for breast screening does not exist. The programme is, in fact, a number of initiatives which include contributions from a range of diagnostic services which all have their own separate budgets and cost centres. A further complicated factor is that patients who are deemed to be high risk or prove positive through the screening process would buy surgical interventions either here in Jersey or on the mainland and the costings for these are all under different headings within the department's overall budgetary structure. There is no recognised model for a screening programme for prostate cancer as there is no evidence that such a programme would save lives. Thus, by definition, it is not possible to cost something that does not exist. Prostate cancer is mostly a disease of older males while breast cancer is the leading cause of death in young females. It is not then correct for the Deputy to state that the 2 cancers claim a similar number of lives. Every year