States Meeting Transcript - 17/09/2008

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

WEDNESDAY, 17th SEPTEMBER 2008

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption ...............................................................4

1. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Health and Social Services Department................................................................................4

1.1 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):....................4

2. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): eighth amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (8))..4

1. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour:................................................4
2. Senator B.E. Shenton:....................................................................5
3. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:................................5
4. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ...............................................................5

3. Annual Business Plan (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Health and Social Services Department - continued..................................................................6

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:................................................6
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ................................................7
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:............................................................7
4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade : ....................................................7
5. Deputy F.J. Hill, B.E.M., of St. Martin : ..................................................8
6. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John : ..........................................................8
7. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :............................................................9
8. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:.......................................................9
9. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:.......................................................9
10. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................10
11. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................10
12. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:....................................................10
13. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................10

4. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Home Affairs Department ...........................................................................................15

1. Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):..................................15
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................16
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................16
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................16
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................17
6. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................17
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................17
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................18
9. Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:......................................18
10. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................19
11. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................19

5. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Housing Department....23

1. Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ......................................23
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................23
3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................23
4. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................24
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
6. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................25
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
8. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................25
9. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................26
10. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................26

6. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Planning and Environment Department..............................................................................30

6.1 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):.....................30

7. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): eleventh amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (11)) ...........................................................................................31

1. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................31
2. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................32
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................33
4. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................33
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................33
6. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................34
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
8. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:........................................................36
9. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................36
10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................37
11. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................37
12. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................38

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13. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................39
14. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................39
15. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................39

8. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Planning and Environment Department - continued.................................................................40

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................40
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................41
3. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................41
4. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................42
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
6. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................43
7. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................44
8. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................44
9. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier:...................................................44
10. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................45

9. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Social Security Department..............................................................................48

9.1 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):................................48

10. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): seventh amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (7)) ...........................................................................................49

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................51
3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................54
4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................55
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................55
6. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................56
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................57
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................57
9. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................57 10.10Constable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour:..............................................57

10.11Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................57 10.12 Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade:.......................................................58 10.13 Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................59 10.14Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................59 10.15 Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................59 10.16Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................60 10.17 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................60

11. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): sixth amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (6)) ..64

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................64
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................66
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................69

12. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): twelfth amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (12)) ...........................................................................................70

1. Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................70
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................71
3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................71
4. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................71
5. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................71

13. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Social Security Department - continued.................................................................71

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................71
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................72
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................72
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................72
5. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................72
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................73

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................73 Senator F.H. Walker :.........................................................................73 Connétable D.F. Gray of St Clement:.........................................................74

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption

1. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Health and Social Services Department

The Deputy Bailiff :

We return to the debate on the Business Plan. The next matter for the Assembly is paragraph (a)(iv), the objectives of the Health and Social Services Department. I invite the Minister to propose them.

1.1 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

As Members are aware, we undertook a day's session at St. Paul's to go through the Business Plan and run a slideshow on what our aims and objectives were. Obviously those Members who could attend we were delighted to see them there. Following that, I did not have any specific questions passed to me within the departments. I am rather hopeful there are not too many questions today. Obviously just running through the key objectives: objective 1 is a redesigned health and social care system to deliver improved health and social wellbeing for the Island's community. Objective 2 is improved health and social care outcomes by reducing the incidence of mortality, disease and injury in the population. Objective 3: improved consumer experience in Health and Social Services. Objective 4: staff and resources managed to improve performance to provide value for money. Objective 5: the independence of adults needing health and social care thus enabling them to live a safe, full and as normal a life as possible, in their own home wherever feasible. There is an amendment which we will come on to later from Deputy Celia Scott Warr en, and obviously we are pleased to see the amendment because it is a very important issue. Everyone has had the Business Plan for quite a period of time. As I said, we did do a presentation as well so I will keep this speech fairly short and answer any questions that Members may have.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are the objectives seconded? [Seconded] Now there is an amendment from Deputy Scott Warr en.

2. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): eighth amendment (P.113/2008 Amd. (8))

The Greffier of the States:

In paragraph (a)(iv) after the words "pages 19 to 21" insert the words "except that after success criterion (ii) in Objective 2 on page 19 there shall be inserted the following new success criteria (and subsequent success criteria renumbered accordingly): (ii) continued reduction in the number of hospital-acquired infections."

1. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour :

I am asking for an additional success criterion under Objective 2: improved health and social care outcomes by reducing the incidence of mortality, disease and injury in the population. The success criterion I propose in the amendment is continued reduction in the number of hospital-acquired infections. Members will be aware that the Minister for Health and Social Services has accepted this amendment. I appreciate that measures have already been taken to reduce hospital-acquired infections including M.R.S.A. (methicillin-resistant  Staphylococcus aureus) and  Clostridium Difficile. The Minister's comments provide Members with information regarding the further work that is being planned in this important field of medicine. Schemes to reduce hospital-acquired infections are included in the allocation of growth monies. The reason I am, therefore, bringing this amendment for this new success criterion is to emphasise this as a priority under this objective. I propose the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded]

2. Senator B.E. Shenton (Minister for Health and Social Services):

I would just like to say that when Senator Perchard (Assistant Minister) and I were approached by the Deputy about the amendment, we were very pleased to accept it because obviously we have committed to spend money on infection control at the hospital. There is quite a lot to do from the refurbishment and the changing of the way wards are laid out, all the way down to having a look at the drainage systems and so on and so forth. This is a very, very important area and I would just like to thank the Deputy for highlighting it by bringing this amendment to the Business Plan.

3. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

I want to thank the Minister for accepting this amendment so enthusiastically and to thank through him his staff for all the work that those on the wards do to make things like the gel and notices to wash hands and all that clearly available. But I wonder if he might like to join me in sending out a message from this House to the members of the community that government can only do so much; that every member of our community has a responsibility when we are visiting hospitals - and I do so regularly on a professional basis - to make sure that we play our part in keeping infections to a minimum. If that means taking the extra few seconds to use the gel on the way in and the way out then that is really important. As I say, I want to congratulate the Deputy and the Minister for giving us a lead which I hope every member of the Island community will follow.

4. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:

Firstly, I thank the Deputy of Trinity for seconding my amendment. I would like to thank the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Dean for having spoken. I think it is very true it is up to individual members of the community to all play their part when they go into hospitals to visit relatives, friends. It is the whole community's responsibility as well as the hospital. I will not speak longer. I thank the Minister for accepting the amendment and I ask for the appel.

POUR: 33

Senator F.H. Walker Senator W. Kinnard Senator T.A. Le Sueur Senator P.F. Routier Senator P.F.C. Ozouf Senator B.E. Shenton Senator F.E. Cohen Senator J.L. Perchard Connétable of St. Peter Connétable of St. Clement Connétable of Trinity Connétable of St. Brelade Connétable of St. Martin

CONTRE: 0 ABSTAIN:

Connétable of St. Saviour Deputy A. Breckon (S) Deputy J.J. Huet (H)

Deputy of St. Martin

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains (C) Deputy P.N. Troy (B) Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en (S) Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier (S) Deputy J.B. Fox (H)

Deputy S.C. Ferguson (B) Deputy of St. Ouen

Deputy of Grouville

Deputy of St. Peter

Deputy J.A. Hilton (H) Deputy D.W. Mezbourian (L) Deputy of Trinity

Deputy S.S.P.A. Power (B) Deputy K.C. Lewis (S) Deputy of St. John

Deputy of St. Mary

3.Annual Business Plan (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Health and Social Services

Department – continued

The Deputy Bailiff :

We then return to the debate upon the objectives of the department as amended.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

If I may raise 3 points and congratulate the Minister and his assistant on settling in so well. The first thing is, I wonder if he could comment on the agreement with the United Kingdom on the reciprocal provision of healthcare for when we visit and when in fact visitors - tourists - come to Jersey. Could he comment on the health of the health agreement? Secondly, I notice after a long year he says in his paper that New Directions implementation has commenced. Now, that is excellent news. Could he tell us to what extent it has commenced? Thirdly, he and his assistant both came in as reformers of the management structure. Every time people like myself raise this

there are all sorts of laughter and saying: "Oh, you cannot change this. The civil service is operating at 150 per cent efficiency. We are business people. We know how these things operate." That whole debate has basically ground to a halt except for people like Deputies Ferguson and Reed. But we did hold out, very high hopes of the 2 Senators. They made this a great plank both in their election platform and their subsequent accession to the health positions. I would like to know, how far this has progressed. Fourthly, we have that magnificent facility at Five Oaks, and I do not refer to the Jersey Evening Post which is not loved in all quarters, as we know, but loved in some. I refer to Greenfields. Again I would like to know - I seem to have received rather mixed messages from questions I have asked recently - where is Greenfields at? Are we on the brink of moving young people from the prison who we have for years said should not be there but for years we have never quite worked out where they should be? Are we on the brink of doing that and is Greenfields being used to its optimum capacity or are the staff being used which I rather think is the question? So, 4 points.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

Just a few queries I hope the Minister will be able to answer. Objective 2: success criteria. I am looking down at item (v) it is reduced alcohol consumption. I find this a little vague. It is 15.4 litres reduced to 9.1 litres. I presume that is per annum and not per week [Laughter]. Of course these things are vague because it does not mention the percentage of alcohol so I wonder if perhaps the Minister could clarify that. Moving down to the same success criterion at (vi), there is that ongoing debate about the M.M.R. (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine. It has been suggested in other places that perhaps if the vaccines were offered separately there would be a better take-up. Some parents are concerned for very valid reasons and the vaccines are not being given to their children where they might be if they were perhaps offered separately. If the criterion is to improve the uptake rate then perhaps the option may assist in that regard. Going on, still on Objective 2, criterion (vii) over the page on page 20, I would like to know why 13 years of age is the age at which the Minister would like that introduced and I wonder if he could advise me of the success rate of this vaccination because my information is that it is almost 100 per cent useless, apart from carrying one or 2 obvious side effects as all medicines and vaccinations do. When I move on to Objective 4, I applaud, for example, (ii) [costs of each defined Service area and relevant overheads identified, to enable comparisons]. I think too many departments carry on doing what they have always been doing without defining each service area and thereby gaining hopefully efficiency. Although I would remark that perhaps that item, Objective 4(ii), should perhaps be an objective rather than a criterion. That is a comment but I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough in his summing up to address the questions I raise.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Assistant Minister and indeed all the staff of Health and Social Services for the tremendous improvements that are being made within this very important sphere. Certainly what I would like to see are the preventive measures coming to the fore and gaining success, especially in Objective 2. Having responsibility for young people is part of my mandate. I was pleased to see that child smoking has been reduced by 21 per cent and indeed heavy drinking of alcohol involving young people by a further 10 per cent. There is always the danger when budgets are squeezed that the preventive measures are squeezed the hardest. I am pleased to see that a balance has been maintained and is still subject to further targets for improvement. I am hoping that the existing budgets and future budgets will allow that to be maintained because in the long run, of course, it is a lot cheaper to have an improvement in health without having to repair the ills of our modern ways of life. To improve in that sphere I wholeheartedly support this particular proposition.

4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade :

Yes, I notice under Objective 4, the success criteria, it is a little unusual to only have 41 per cent of staff having a formal annual appraisal. That is a challenging target. I look forward to seeing how it is achieved. Just a minute, which one is it? It is number (iii) talking about the proportion of staff in management roles, keeping it under 3 per cent. Now, the Minister will remember that I have asked for an updated copy of the organisation chart because the one I produced apparently is inaccurate. Now, much has changed. I would be interested to know when I can expect to receive the revised one.

5. Deputy F.J. Hill, B.E.M., of St. Martin :

I would like to draw Members' attention to the aim of Health and Social Services, which is to improve the health and social wellbeing of the population of Jersey through the provision of high quality services. What I would like to draw the Minister's attention to is the next success criterion (i) - that is on Objective 2 - it says about the increased expectancy for the life of men in Jersey. I am making a plea on behalf of the men of Jersey because we seem to be left out of these things. When one looks at expectancy for a lady, we are looking hopefully 82.5 [Interruption] - declining, yes - and men are 78.6. What I am leading on to is what is the Health Department doing for men? The Minister knows full well I have been pushing for greater awareness of things such as prostate cancer. I have been told and others have been told also that P.S.A. (prostate specific antigen) testing is not really that good because it is not certain. The Health Department is going to take responsibility for it; however, it says why do you not go and do that thing yourself. But what I have been pushing for - and I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about it - is where are we with looking at things like well man clinics because we do and quite rightly we look after a number of other people in the community; young people, et cetera, about sexual guidance and ladies with various problems. That is excellent but I do feel that the men are left out. What I would like to get from the Minister is where are we in looking at well man clinics and possibly greater awareness about issues like prostate cancer? Because in my meetings with him after Christmas I did get an understanding that somebody was going to follow through. Also I would like to ask where are we with a sexual health strategy? I understood that also was going to be looked at certainly about 2 years ago when we had a delay on - I am just trying to think what it is called now - the law that brought in sex for men under the age of 18. So could I have an update on that? Also, Deputy Le Hérissier touched on it on some of the issues about Greenfields; where are we in relation to the recommendations made by Andrew Williamson, which was the end of June and we are now well into September? Could the Minister give me or give the House an update on some of the recommendations that were made and what is being done to implement those recommendations?

6. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John :

Firstly, I would like to maybe take this opportunity of applauding our health service; the men and women that work in it. We are very lucky in Jersey to have a fantastic service. I have experienced it myself in recent years through various family issues and it has always been superb. I would like to pass the message on to the Minister and to all the excellent staff that his department employs. I have a couple of questions for the Minister, though. Reading the plan, I do not see a strong connection between health promotion and the Education Department. It may well be included in New Directions. I wonder if the Minister could advise me as to what the connection is, how well established it is and what the programmes are likely to be? I am talking here about healthy eating programmes in schools. Also the instruction of sport, getting fit for life programmes, which I understand are in place in the schools to a certain extent but always need full support from health departments as well. I would also be interested to know what if anything the department is doing with reference to getting fit for continued life. In other words, programmes again working with Sport and Culture for all ages and the promotion of getting fit for life. What is the connection between Education, Sport and Culture and the Health Ministry? Another area that concerns me - and it has been brought to my attention by a number of constituents in recent years - is the cost of dentistry in the Island and being dental fit is a big issue in the Island. I would like to know what the Minister has if anything; any plans in place to ensure that the population of Jersey remain dentally fit because the cost of going to a dentist now is very, very high. Many people cannot afford to do it, are putting it off on many occasions and ending up with some serious health problems because of the cost of dental care. Does the Minister have any views on that and are there any plans to ensure that we remain dentally fit as a population? The other thing I would like to say as well that I welcome the commitment that his department has made to pushing through the new licensing law. The feedback we have had from the Medical Officer of Health has been extremely useful and Senator Perchard's involvement with the review as well has been very, very useful. It is a very, very good example of joint working across the Ministries, the review of the licensing law. I welcome any further input from the departments on that particular review.

7. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

Just a couple of brief points. The Deputy of St. Martin touched on one of them which was about sexual health and young people. It is such a shame that none of it was mentioned in any of Objective 2. I think that is a great omission especially with the report that came out recently by A.C.E.T. (AIDS Care, Education and Training). The other point too is we talked a lot about inspection of residential and care homes. There has been talk for a long time about inspecting Health and Social Services places. I wonder where that is in the mix; also about the regulations which are hoping to come soon registering nursing agencies.

8. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour :

Something I think that frustrated scrutiny is New Directions. I think although there is a mention of it in the report under the annex, I think it is perhaps ambitious and I would like the Minister to try to give some assurances over this because it says on one hand that it will be by March 2009 and then in the annex it says: "In 2009 it is intended that New Directions will be a simple element of the overarching strategy that the new Council of Ministers will bring before the States Assembly during the first 3 months." Bearing in mind that most else hinges on that - it links things together - I think the wait has been frustrating. I think the Minister, although it might not be his responsibility, if he can give some assurance that somebody indeed will bring this forward as is promised here for the umpteenth time. It needs to be proactive. It needs to have timelines in. It is not just a case of maybe or we are waiting for or we think something might happen. The other point I think that is important and again it is referred to in the annex, it talks about the challenge in caring for large numbers of older people. There is a scrutiny review at the moment that will conclude in the next 6 weeks or so that are looking at this. But it talks there about an independently managed compulsory insurance scheme to help pay for health and social care in old age. I wonder if the Minister could share with us any information he might know about cross co-operation with, say, Social Security or anybody else or even indeed the agencies about how this might be managed or implemented? The other thing is there is another bullet point in the annex that talks about consideration to be given to the impact of the aging population during all policy and strategy development. I wonder if the Minister could explain if there is any joined-up government here. For example, do they liaise with Planning on a new development that might accommodate the needs of lifetime living or whatever you want to call it, because it seems to be that promises have been made over the years but perhaps not delivered. I wonder if the Minister could say if there are any links between the departments on some of these issues because it is strategic. It is important

for the future. Perhaps he could share those with the House.

9. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

Just a few points. Underage smoking and drinking, it says, "Further reduced adult and smoking cases (currently recorded as 20 per cent for adults and 21 per cent for 14 and 15 year-olds." These appear on target. "Continued reduction in the number of young people 14 and 15 years who drink heavily, down 10 per cent in 2006." I wish the department well. I look forward to seeing the figures for 2007/2008. My stance on underage drinking is well known. The Human Papilloma Virus vaccine for girls of 13 years of age introduced. The H.P.V. (Human Papilloma Virus) vaccine. I will be curious to see what the uptake is of that in Jersey.

10. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:

Firstly, regarding my amendment, I would like to add my thanks to the Chief Executive Officer for Health for his help with the amendment. I would like to ask the Minister whether the growth monies which are allocated  in the annex shown, whether they will  help to alleviate the staff shortage I understand there is regarding special needs and social workers of that area? I would just like to say that I very much look forward to a new Assembly debating New Directions early next year hopefully. I am for it. It seems to have been a long time and I know there is a huge amount of work that has had to go into it, but I think that it would be very good for  it to start to be implemented.

11. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

I would really like to draw the Minister's attention to Objective 3 on page 20 and success criteria under subsection (i) which is the improved consumer experience of health. Unwittingly I became a client of the Health and Social Services Department [Laughter] at the end of July/beginning of August; first at Accident and Emergency then at the fracture clinic with the consultants, the orthopaedic people and the physio. I have to confirm my own highly subjective experience which confirms that my consumer experience of health was excellent. I would like to tell the Minister or convey to the Minister that in all respects my treatment in the last 6 weeks has been 101 per cent. Even though at times I was accused of being a hooligan by his staff and the fact that I hobbled round for 3 days on a broken bone, I have nothing but respect for his staff.

12. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter :

Without wanting to repeat what has been said, I would like to express my sincere thanks to the staff and the management at Overdale Hospital particularly with emphasis on the Samares Ward because, as I think most of you know, I have been a frequent visitor there for 5 months up until recently and pleasing to say not other than outpatients at the moment. But there are a couple of points that I would like to draw to the notice of the Minister that if there is another extension embarked upon or in his stewardship of Health and Social Services on a rebuild or new build somewhere to ensure that architects and all connected get their act together that will enable the current lifts to house the stretchers because our first class ambulance service cannot use the lifts to get up into Overdale, which I think is an absolute disgrace considering it is only a few years old. It is high time that those sorts of things were looked at. We are paying a lot of money to senior staff to oversee those things and that should have been found out. The other matter that I would like to raise is the future of the Overdale site. I know it is not figuring directly within the ambit of the Business Plan but the site does concern me greatly because I believe most sincerely that everyone that has had experience of either working there or indeed being there through rehabilitation or illness and families have been nothing but reassured every time they visit at the pleasant surroundings which everyone encounters there. I cannot think of a better place on the Island to aid the recovery of anyone in their hour of dire need in many instances. I believe that that site or parts of should not be hawked around to the highest bidder. It should be retained for the good use. If there is to be a hospital use let us retain it there [Approbation]. I believe if we embark on that rather than build somewhere else which will not be quite as accessible then it will make it easier for everyone concerned and it will make life more tolerable all round.

13. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

I have been corresponding of late with the Minister and his team and the Constable of St. Helier in regards to implementing a smoking ban for children's playgrounds for parents and adults that choose to smoke inside infant playgrounds in particular. In the Our Island Our Health 2007 annual report of the Medical Officer of Health on page 9 the Medical Officer of Health writes: "Life after the smoking ban. The smoking ban law is the most significant legal advance to benefit public health in my living memory. All went well from 4.00 a.m. on 2nd of January 2007 with smooth implementation and tremendously positive public feedback. Fears that smokers, proprietors and employers might not comply were unfounded." It goes on. As we have yet to have answers from the Constable of St. Helier and the Minister in this regard, I am trying to seek this morning a commitment from the Minister that steps will be taken to extend the ban into areas such as children's playgrounds within the next year. Currently having asked the Medical Officer of Health there is no plan to do so. I find it remarkable that we can bring in a smoking ban recognising the damage it does and allow adults to smoke within the confines of an infants secure playground. The children run around not only risking themselves of injury from the lit cigarette but also inhaling the exhaled tobacco which people know is a carcinogenic attributory factor. At the same time the infants toddle around picking up cigarette butts. Will the Minister undertake this morning to

commit to introducing this ban to children's playgrounds where they are provided for use for the public by the States and seek to ensure that other departments within the States and the Constables also sign up to this so that I will not be forced to bring a proposition on this issue which should be a matter of common sense.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I call upon the Minister to reply.

14. Senator B.E. Shenton:

Deputy Le Hérissier said he had 3 points and then mentioned 4. The Reciprocal Health Agreement, the U.K. (United Kingdom) Government is looking - I think as a cost saving measure - to extract itself from the Reciprocal Health Agreement with all the Crown dependencies. This is very much I believe a political move by the U.K. We are obviously trying to resist it for 2 reasons; one reason is financial but the other reason is because it is just another chipping away of our relationship with the U.K. which obviously we are not too keen on. We as an Island have a very close relationship with the U.K. This is my personal view. When you look at the way Jersey has been treated differently to Bermuda, for example, on university funding it is just another chipping away. We are in negotiations. We are working very closely with the Chief Minister's Department on this. There is very little else I can say at the moment but I did speak to the Deputy very briefly about it yesterday. New Directions. We are kicking off very shortly the Health for Life Strategy which is the first part of trying to make people have a conscious look at their lifestyle, the way they eat, the way they exercise and so on and so forth. Having said that, we have also done some work in the schools. We are looking at making the school meals healthier. We are working with the Education Department. There is a healthy schools initiative going forward. There is still work to be done. I did pay a visit to a canteen of one school - I will not name it - but there were slightly too many chips and too many cans of Coke lying round the canteen. The management structure and implementation plan - and Deputy Ferguson also touched upon this - within Health and Social Services we are treating these in 2 slightly different ways. Within Health it is very much a softly, softly approach where we are looking at positions to see whether we have got duplication in any area. We are also utilising the reorganisation of the wards and so on and so forth to look at staff levels. Within Social Services there is a little work to be done. Senator Perchard has been working very closely with the department on this. We should be in a position over the next few months to come forward to the Assembly or at least to all States Members with a sort of scoping document on how Social Services will be structured going forward but there will be changes with regard the structure because at the moment there are areas - and there is certainly within the Children's Executive - that lack accountability of a single Minister. As a result of that no one takes responsibility when things go wrong. Greenfields. Again Williamson had concerns with the Children's Executive - Greenfields under the Youth Action Team - that the line of accountability was not there. Again this will be addressed very much in the scoping document which will be coming forward in the next couple of months. I sort of joked about it yesterday the fact that Senator Perchard and I were not going to get caught up in elections and States sittings, but it is going to be a very useful time for us because the work has to be done and it has to be done in the next couple of months. It is not something that we can let slip because it is too important to do that. We are working very closely with the Deputy of St. John on a new licensing law. It is trying to weigh up the balance because we do not want to turn the whole Island into Methodists, teetotals or whatever as perhaps some health people who advised us would like. It is trying to find a balance with regard the licensing law because there is very much still a social aspect to drinking. It is trying to find that balance. We are working also with the Economic Development Department on that. M.M.R. There was I would say a media frenzy about M.M.R. a number of years ago and whether it is safe or not. I think the person behind the frenzy was largely discredited but there is still doubt in some people's minds, which is why the take up is slightly lower than we would expect. We spoke about it at Health last week because there is quite a large measles outbreak in London which was partly attributed to the fact that people had not been inoculating their children as they should. The perceived wisdom of the medical community is still very much that the triple vaccine is the most effective. We will be pushing ahead on that. What is quite nice is the coverage is increasing after hitting a low point at the height of the frenzy. So we are making progress there. The H.P.V. vaccine, this is a vaccine that the U.S. (United States) Government has introduced, the U.K. Government has introduced and many other governments have also introduced. Obviously none of them spoke to Deputy Baudains before they did so. It is a fairly new vaccine. There are 2 companies producing it. These vaccines go through years and years of trials. It is proven to be a positive benefit with regard to cervical cancer. The only criticism we have had with regard its implementation is why have we not done it sooner. We are very pleased to be rolling that out to 13 year-olds. The question of why 13 year-olds is because you have to catch the client before they become sexually active for the vaccine to work most efficiently I would like to thank Deputy Fox for his support, not only for what he said in this debate but also the support of the Education Department. Deputy Ferguson has been asking for an updated copy of an organisational chart for many months. The organisational chart should include all the changes I believe with regards the Children's Executive and Alliance and so on and so forth. I think I should really make a commitment to make sure she has that before the end of the life of this Assembly. The Deputy of St. Martin: prostate cancer. A very, very important issue that has certainly been raised in the consciousness of people over the last 6 or 8 months; if I am totally honest more due to the work of

people like Deputy Hill and some colleagues of his who have been working very hard in this area. We do need to raise the profile even higher. We do not have a screening test that is totally accurate at the moment. There are hopes that one will become available within the next 2 years. Obviously if a reliable screening test does become available we will introduce it, but at the moment we do not have one so it is a case of just raising the knowledge and educating people about prostate cancer and the dangers of prostate cancer. We are obviously delighted to meet with the Deputy on a regular basis to discuss this. He mentioned about well men clinics. I am a little bit disappointed that there are not more well men clinics over here or something of a similar nature especially as there was a scheme at the hospital many years ago - which I used to attend myself - just to make sure that you were healthy and so on and so forth. We have been in talks with a private operator about setting up over here. I will chase up on that because we had some very interesting and enthusiastic meetings and then it went a little bit quiet. We sent them off to have a word with Regulation of Undertakings and they never came back but we will chase up on that one. Sexual health strategy. Our relationship with Brook has improved considerably over the last 12 months. There were certain tensions - I think it would be fair to say - to start with. They are working now more closely with the department. I think they could work even more closely if I am totally honest but it seems to be working better and as long as we keep getting better. It is a very, very important area. Brook is a very important part of the sexual health strategy because young adults can go there with confidence. We are pleased at the way that is developing. With regard to the Williamson Report, a scoping document is being produced. We have a very senior person at Health and Social Services working on making sure that we can pull everything together in a timely manner. This is

not a small change. We are not fiddling about at the edges. This is a big change and we have to get it right. It is not only important from Jersey's point of view but obviously it is important because going forward the eyes of the world are still on us because of what has happened and we have to get it right. I would just like to use this opportunity to thank all the staff at Social Services for their hard work over this exceedingly difficult period [Approbation] and just say to them just keep hanging in there. Ignore what you read in the media. You are doing a very, very good job. What happened in the past happened in the past. Today we have a very good service and some very good workers [Approbation]. The Deputy of St. John mentioned about health promotion. As I said, we are working with healthy schools in an accreditation. In fact, in the summer I turned up at one of the parks to present an award to one of the schools about healthy eating and recognition. It was 5 and 6 and 7 year-olds. They all did yoga before the lessons and so on and so forth. It was quite nice and made me feel totally unfit but there you go. The health for life strategy is in the process of being launched. We have a very enthusiastic Medical Officer of Health and her team. They have a very difficult job to do because people unfortunately are getting a little bit larger. It is just trying to make sure that we can take the public along with us. I do not think we will get anywhere if we start preaching to the public. We have to very much take the public along with us. With regard to the cost of dentistry, this is something that again will come into the New Directions strategy but it will also come into the use of the House Insurance Fund which is a liaison project with the Social Security Department. Again on the licensing law I would like to thank the Deputy of St. John for his hard work on the licensing law because he sat in the middle. On one side he has had the "let us drink 24 hours a day" crowd and on the other side he has had "let us not drink at all and let us not let anyone else drink" crowd. It is a difficult line to go through. The Deputy of Trinity mentioned about sexual health strategy and she also mentioned A.C.E.T., the AIDS charity. For the first time this year they have received funding from Health and Social Services. When Senator Perchard and I took office they were not receiving funding and the relationship with the department was not the best. It has improved considerably. Again what we are doing with Brook in other areas, we are trying to move forward on that. Care home consultation, as Members will know, we have been out for consultation on the care homes. We are looking at bringing in laws. There is a lack of rigorous inspection of care homes. There is a lot of work to be done in this area. A new law should be with the new Assembly in the New Year. We have also been making sure that we speak to all the interested bodies on that through the consultation process. Also we are looking to make sure that at the moment our own public sector do not require inspection. We have been talking to Guernsey and we are also looking at the U.K. to get independent inspection. It is very important that we have independent inspection of everything we do [Approbation]. Deputy Breckon mentioned about New Directions. When we took office we had a New Directions framework that had not been

costed and obviously you cannot bring to the States something if you do not know the cost of it. We have done the costings to it but now we need to break it down into pieces because it covers not just health but also many other departments with regard to education, social security and so on and so forth. There is a lot of cross-departmental work to be done. We have decided to put it off a month or 2 ago simply because there was more work to be done but also because we were coming towards the end of a 3-year term within the parliament. We felt that it was something that we need to launch with the new Members in the New Year and the new Ministers, whoever they may be, of the various departments. Long-term care of the elderly. I would like to take this opportunity of thanking Scrutiny for launching their review of this very important topic. It is one that with all fairness Deputy Breckon has been crusading for a very long time. I think it is about time we stopped talking and put into place something so that people do not lose their homes and do not lose what they wish to pass on to their children [Approbation]. This is something that I feel as a House we need to give a commitment that this will be done in the next period of parliament. He also mentioned about the liaison with Planning. Again this is greatly approved. Also the liaison with the Housing Department as well where we have a number of clients living within the community in housing properties. Again there used to be a case of where the developers would build care homes or build residential homes without discovering whether there was a demand or requirement on the

Island. Now if someone says, "We will build you a housing set and we will give you a nursing home", Planning make sure that they write to our department and get a letter from us to confirm that there is a need for that type of care before they go and give the planning consent. There is a greater understanding there. Deputy Lewis mentioned about smoking and drinking and underage and so on and so forth. Again the new licensing law, we are looking at all sorts of measures to make alcohol less accessible to those underage. The smoking strategy has been very successful but there is more we can do. We are introducing the pictures on the smoking packets. We are also looking to perhaps ban the sale of these very small packets of cigarettes where you can just buy a few cigarettes at a time because these tend to be prevalent with the kids that do not have a great deal of cash. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Deputy Scott Warr en who has been very supportive of Health and Social Services since Senator Perchard and I took office. There are shortages in special needs without a doubt with the recruitment of staff. In fact we have recruitment problems right across the whole social spectrum. This is not due to financial shortcomings. It is very much a recruitment problem. We are hoping that the re-launch through the Williamson Report and so on and so forth might bring a new feeling and a new freshness to the department and solve some of these problems. Deputy Power gave thanks to the department for getting him fit so quickly. I am not sure if some of his parishioners will be quite so thankful when he is fit enough to stand again. But I thank him very much for that and the Constable of St. Peter . I would just like to say something on this. Quite often we have a good news story at Health and Social Services and the T.V. or media phone me up and say, "Will you come on and speak about this?" I tend to direct them to the people who are responsible for the good news story because it is very much down to the staff. It is very easy as a politician to take all the credit for the hard work of the staff under you but it is the staff that are doing all the work. I sometimes feel like a fraud if I am standing and taking the credit for something I have had absolutely nothing to do with. We do have some excellent staff. I do occasionally receive the odd complaint but the amount of praise I receive far, far outweighs the number of complaints. The Constable of St. Peter mentioned about the liaison with the architects. Yes, obviously I have been up to the premises up at Overdale without the lifts and the ramp up the sides so that the patients get soaking wet if it is raining. I am not quite sure what went through the minds of the architects when that was designed. Certainly you

can make a mistake once but you have to make sure you learn from it. I am pretty certain that that will not happen again. With regard to the future of the Overdale site, we gave a commitment at the very beginning that Overdale would always  stay within the Health and Social Services remit because it is such a fantastic site. We did do a short presentation to the scrutiny panel to outline our long-term plans for Overdale. There is still concern. It does not matter how many times you tell the general public that Overdale is going to stay in Health, there are always people with concerns. On the back of that I think it is probably about time that Senator Perchard and I got out there and publicised the long term plans for Overdale in a more open manner so people can see exactly what we are going to do up there because if they see it then they will not just have to take the word of a politician. Deputy Le Claire, finally, smoking in playgrounds. We have been in correspondence with the Constable of St. Helier on this issue. We as a department have no plans to bring in yet more legislation to outlaw smoking within playgrounds because it is within the parishes' powers to put up signs and ban smoking within the playgrounds under existing legislation. I would just hope that the Deputy works with the Constable of St. Helier in order to achieve this in the not too distant future. I think it would be worthwhile to do that but I would be a little bit hesitant to have yet more legislation go through the Assembly.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

While as a Deputy of St. Helier I can lobby quite strongly for the concerns of St. Helier and the parish of St. Helier through the Constable, as a Deputy for St. Helier I cannot necessarily go and start knocking on the doors as ably as the Minister for Health and Social Services for the other parishes where playgrounds exist.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I think this is one of those cases where you will probably get a domino effect. I think if St. Helier banned smoking in all its playgrounds, I think the other parishes will follow suit fairly quickly, to be honest with you.

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

I think really the Senatgor's comments should be directed towards the Education Department because certainly most of the other parishes have not got responsibility for playgrounds at all.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I take that on board. I will raise it with the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. With that, I would like to put forward the Health and Social Services Business Plan, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well. The matter before the Assembly is paragraph (a)(iv), the Objectives of the Health and Social Services Department. The objectives are adopted.

4. Annual Business Plan 2009 (P.113/2008): Objectives of the Home Affairs Department The Deputy Bailiff :

We come next to (a)(v), the Objectives of the Home Affairs Department.

1. Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

The revenue budget for Home Affairs in 2009 is £45 million and 80 per cent of our budget is staff. I would like to pay tribute to them; to all the men and women who work with such dedication in achieving the department's objectives. There are some factors which have given rise to funding pressures in the Home Affairs area and, in particular, the full implementation of improvements at the prison will require additional funding. The department will be receiving additional funding over the period as a result of the resource allocation process. If Members wish to turn to the department's key objectives on pages 22 and 23 of the Business Plan, I will draw their attention to the very important overall objective for the department which is to work towards a safe, just and equitable society. We will continue to deliver improvements in public safety, protection and security by providing around-the-clock response to calls for assistance and by addressing particular areas of concern. Funding has been allocated to deliver a sex offenders law in 2009 and to provide for the setting up of a vetting and barring scheme. In addition, the annual policing plan identifies where resources are to be focused to deliver tangible improvements in community safety and public confidence in the services will be measured through regular public surveys. This information will continue to be used to further inform policy and service delivery in 2009 and beyond. Policing of offences that pose the greatest threat to our community's safety will be addressed through effective anti-smuggling controls designed to disrupt the availability of illegal drugs in the Island and through the policing of offending behaviours including repeat offending, street violence and anti- social behaviour. These will be measured against previous year standards and against the 3-year average to further deliver the downward trend in overall crime we have achieved over the past 3 years. These actions will be underpinned by implementing key policies such as the highly successful Building a Safer Society and the criminal justice policy. Our efforts to protect the public through reducing re-offending will again be particularly concentrated upon the prison and its ability to contribute to this important task through sentence planning and resettlement, improved facilities and assistance to prisoners to integrate back into society. From 2009 the prison base budget will be increased by £1.5 million. At Objective 5, frontier protection is essential for the Island's security and economic integrity and the confident business environment we enjoy. This must be achieved through the maintenance of controls at the Island's ports of entry. Some of the funding pressures on Customs and Immigration have been recognised with additional funds of £250,000 in 2009. While I have drawn out a few examples by way of illustration of the objectives, other service areas will continue to meet the department's objectives and we will play our full part in our contribution to efficiency savings. I am also grateful to the input of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel in helping us to finesse our department's objectives for 2009. I propose the objectives.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are they seconded? [Seconded]

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Could the Minister please update us as to what is happening in relation to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme? Is it still coming out of the Home Affairs' budget? Is it still part of the Home Affairs remit? Does she agree with me that the recent case highlighted in the report by the oversight of this fund highlighted - I mentioned it before - the individual's compensation for having his life destroyed was derisory and the awarding officers lamented the ceiling that had been kept for this individual recognising that he would have to go through the rest of his life with a diminished quality of life? Has something been done about this? Has the ceiling been raised? Has more money been apportioned? Has that been stripped out of the Home Affairs budget? Is it really right for the Home Affairs budget to be targeted in this way or should it not be a set aside scheme that is provided from the central resources?

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I am delighted that the Minister is bringing forward the Sex Offenders Register which should be with us in the not too distant future. Also public safety and perception of safety in St. Helier at night has improved. I am delighted for that. I have a question regarding the Royal Engineer Squadron prepared to deliver individual reinforcements or a formed group to support U.K. operations. Will the number be the same, increased or decreased of troops going out to Iraq and Afghanistan? I would just like to also point out that in my 3 years in the States most of my questions and points and comments have been aimed at Home Affairs. I hope the Minister sees them as constructive comments.

4. Deputy J.B. Fox:

The Home Affairs Department in all its responsibilities has gone through some very testing times and has moved great strengths in improving in many areas that have been challenging to them. But first of all I think that it is very important that we think about our Royal Engineer Squadron that has been contributing to the British armed forces out in Iraq and Afghanistan and places like that. We should say thank you to them for their commitment as part of our international commitment to the U.K.'s defence. I think that it is very important that we remember that one [Approbation]. I suppose as a retired policeman it would be remiss of me not to just bring a couple of points. Design against Crimes, Kill by Design are areas that are just about to go national both in government and police service terms. Crime impact assessments similar to what we have in things like the environment traffic, et cetera, will come to the fore in designing it out through our designs. It is an area that we particularly need to take up now because by the end of the month we will have lost a very significant opportunity with the review of our Island plan so it is something I would seek for the Minister to ensure. I have already spoken with relevant Ministers in relation to planning and officers in the need to make sure that we are fully updated. Obviously I know that the Minister will support this, as will the Chief of Police and others. But there is one question that I really should ask before the Minister retires and that is in relation to that we still have common law larceny which is based on the 1916 Larceny Act. Although we have nothing to do with it, we seem to have based it on over the years but bearing in mind that I have been retired for 10 years. I think we have had about 4 Thefts Acts since then; since 1968, 1971 and I have lost count of the one subsequently. Where are we on this? I know that we did not have offences like to obtain fraud by various means but I gather that we have stated cases from the Attorney General that have alleviated us of some of the pressures that might otherwise be a necessity. I think it is about time that with all the legislation that the Minister is bringing forward especially on the social aspects and covering the I.M.F.

(International Monetary Fund), et cetera, I think this is one that seems to have been left in the wilderness. I just wonder when we are going to be looking at that again. I think most of the other areas will be brought up by other speakers so I think I will leave it there. Thanks to all the staff in the various sections of the Home Affairs Committee. They do a sterling job. They have had very trying times at times - sometimes internally - but that is the very nature of the department being at the front line so they should be congratulated.

5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

The Minister will be aware that the Chief Officer of Police is not an accounting officer and, therefore, has no legal accountability for his budget. How does the Minister expect to achieve Objective 8 without this? Furthermore, we are told that the customs and police units of the Intelligence Unit are still housed in separate offices. When does the Minister expect the previous sharing of offices to be reinstated? If this is the case, is it really the most efficient use of resources to run 2 separate offices? Is the sharing of offices really the most efficient use of resources? There is a small point that the Audit Department of the police does not report into the Chief Internal Auditor, which it should. How does the Minister in all these objectives - particularly Objective 8 - intend to address that?

6. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:

I will be speaking under Objective 3. I am extremely pleased that at long last the prison will be receiving more realistic funding. I just wondered if the Minister could give 2 updates to Members; one is regarding the situation of young people in their teens going to prison, particularly the women's wing and teenage girls. I presume teenage girls may still be placed in the women's wing of the prison. Also I wanted to ask whether there is any measurable success rate yet regarding the rehabilitation of offenders with the improved measures?

7. The Deputy of St. Martin :

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to Objective 1. I would certainly like to join in with those who have congratulated the police, et cetera, on the work they do. I know they have a difficult job and they do a good job well. But I am concerned about the high levels of public confidence in the service that is provided by Home Affairs Department that that is maintained. What I would like to draw the Minister's attention to are those people who are arrested but are not charged. There are a number of occasions that people are brought in for questioning for all sorts of reasons and they are not charged. It may well be because there is insufficient evidence, et cetera, but it does not mean to say they are guilty any more than they are innocent simply because there is not sufficient to charge. What I am concerned about - and it was a question I raised 2 or 3 times through Question Times and I never really got a satisfactory answer - is what steps are there at Rouge Bouillon? Indeed, possibly I cannot ask about the public parish halls, but the same thing, just to allay a sense of grievance for those people who are brought into custody and are not charged. I think it is very important that people who are brought into police stations are seen to be treated fairly and it is explained to them afterwards, you know: "We are sorry we brought you in but you understand why." I think those little steps are so important because they do inspire public confidence and we must not always think about the people who generally have no involvement at all with police. It is the way police deal with the public, particularly when they are brought in for questioning. That will raise me to Objective 3: as I said before, I would very much welcome a lay visiting scheme. No doubt it will not be in this Minister's time but I am laying a marker for future Ministers for Home Affairs that I will be looking to see the introduction of a lay visiting scheme. I would like then to draw the Minister's attention to Objective 4, and it is a pity that Deputy Fox is not in these Chambers at the moment but I know he would support what I am saying about prevention being very, very important. I would like to ask what sort of steps are being taken by the Fire Service, particularly as we have had the problem at Broadlands where a fire spread very, very quickly. I am not going to go too deep into the ins and outs of it and who was responsible, et

cetera, but it would appear that it was very much like a tinderbox and it did not take long for the whole place to spread. I understand it was a registered lodging house and what I would like to know - it is just as well the Minister for Housing has come in as well because he may well be able to come back on this one himself - is what steps are taken by the Fire Service in ensuring that all houses, all properties which are registered as lodging houses are actually checked regularly? Are there any sorts of forms that have to be filled in, boxes ticked, et cetera, to ensure that they have met the satisfaction of the Fire Service and, more importantly, that there is a regular check on these registered lodging houses?

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I have been beaten to the post by the Deputy of St. Martin on a couple of issues. I want to see if the Minister could outline the numbers under Objective 3 to the success rate; from what success rate are we moving, number wise, and to what success rate do we seek to move, number wise? I did not get the answer, despite a comprehensive set of answers from the Minister for Health and Social Services about the issues of these young people who fall through the cracks, as to whether or not they are, indeed, going to go to Greenfields as convicted young adults. Could the Minister tell us where those negotiations, which have been interminable, are at the moment? I would support the Deputy of St. Martin on this issue, which I raised also, of dramatic early morning arrests which we were told are sometimes necessary because of the element of surprise. But they can do an awful lot of harm to individuals on a small Island, as we well know, unless they are very carefully handled and there is real cause for such arrests to take place. I would like the Minister to talk about how she followed up this issue when it was raised in the States, as well as the Deputy of St. Martin's concern about no charge. The last point is the lay visitor's scheme. This has been going on for years and years without any real result. We were told at one point it depended on the provision of a new police station. Where is the Minister at with this idea and is there any hope that this can be implemented in the foreseeable future?

9. Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:

The aim of the Home Affairs Department is to work towards a safe, just and equitable society and it is in the context of justice that I wanted to say just a few words. There are in essence 3 pillars to providing justice in criminal cases and I thought it might be helpful to say a few words about them. The first of them, of course, is the police, which have the responsibility of preventing and arresting crime and to have, of course, the duty to investigate fairly, which I am sure they do. The second is the prosecution, which has the responsibility for deciding whether to charge and, if so, for what; for presenting the cases in court because it has taken decisions on whether to charge and for what, and before presenting the cases in court it is inevitable that prosecution lawyers will be advising the police in connection with those cases as the investigation proceeds. Finally, the judiciary are responsible for holding the reins of justice in court to ensure that there is a fair trial or hearing at that time. That structure of criminal justice provides for checks and balances which between them ensure that justice is done. It is inevitable that because there are 3 different agencies, the police, the prosecution and the judiciary, with their different functions to perform that from time to time the possibility of tension between those agencies may arise. But I say to Members that when that does arise, it does not show the system is breaking down, it shows quite the opposite. It shows that the checks and balances are working properly. I am pleased to reassure the Assembly and the Minister that the relationship between the police and the prosecution is very good, each recognising the need for both to work together and the need to maintain their own operational independence in performing the functions which they do. The second matter which I wished to touch upon briefly was Objective 6, which is the Financial Crimes Investigation Service and, in particular, the need for the Joint Financial Crimes Unit. It is absolutely essential that that unit is staffed and maintained adequately to fulfil its functions. The Joint Financial Crimes Unit is primarily an intelligence gathering and intelligence dissemination service. We are required to have a financial investigation unit, what we call the Joint Financial Crimes Unit, by the Financial Action Task Force

recommendations, and it is without a doubt one of the absolutely essential services that we must provide and it must be adequately staffed. The unit works very closely and very satisfactorily with my department in the conduct of serious fraud investigations, and I just mention some in case it should be of interest to Members. In connection with the Abacha frauds in Nigeria; that approximately £170 million, so far, has been returned to the Government of Nigeria arising from those frauds. Secondly, we have had 3 really very major money laundering cases in the last 4 or 5 years which have resulted in convictions upheld in the Court of Appeal. Much of that is down to the very close liaison between the Joint Financial Crimes Unit and my own lawyers. The last thing I wish to say in relation to the Home Affairs Department and the aims of the Business Plan is that there is a need for close policy contact between the Minister for Home Affairs and the Attorney General insofar as the delivery of criminal justice is concerned and I just wish to take the opportunity of congratulating the Minister on her care and attention to the need for that co- operation.

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Following up the remarks of the Attorney General it is apposite perhaps because I was going to speak on these 2 issues myself. First of all, the Financial Crimes Unit. Certainly in the past 12 months I believe that many of the most experienced officers have left and moved over to the Financial Services Commission. I wondered how recruitment was going for their replacement and whether that was prioritised in the coming year, or years, to make sure that the Financial Crimes Unit is kept fully staffed because I am aware there have been problems  in the past, I think. Secondly, in the light of what the A.G. (Attorney General) was saying about the separate roles of the police and the prosecution, I wondered whether he has thought that in the coming year there will be opportunity to examine in detail the potential overlap, the potential conflict in the A.G.'s role in his being head of the Honorary Police and also head of the Prosecution Service. There is an overlap there and the potential conflict that exists I believe still needs examination, and whether she is considering initiating such an investigation in the coming year.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I call upon the Minister to reply.

11. Senator W. Kinnard:

Deputy Le Claire asked me a question in relation to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme and whether or not it was still within the Home Affairs budget. The C. & A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) and external audit agree that the scheme should not be part of the Home Affairs budget any longer. In fact, from 2009 the scheme is going to be funded from outside of the Home Affairs cash limit. We are awaiting a decision from the Treasurer to the formal arrangements for it but at this point the maximum limits have not been reviewed because of the difficulties of maintaining it within our budget and the stresses on the budget. But, of course, at the point that it is outwith the budget of Home Affairs, it seems to me that that would be an appropriate moment for the maximum limits to be reviewed should Members wish to support an increase in those maximum limits in the future.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Is the Minister able to tell us how we would proceed to recommend the uplifting of that limit? How would that be done exactly, please?

Senator W. Kinnard:

It would be a matter of, I think, persuading either the new Council of Ministers or bring a proposition to the House in the normal way. The scheme was set up by a proposition to the States of Jersey and it would be a matter of amending the scheme by that means, I believe. Deputy Lewis welcomed the - hopefully soon - introduction of the Sex Offenders law. He also made very positive comments about the Jersey Field Squadron, which indeed I very much endorse, for the huge effort

that they have put into, on our behalf, the war going on in Afghanistan and elsewhere. He also asked whether the numbers were going to be likely to be significantly different going out to these arenas of war. It looks in the future that there might be slightly fewer going than we have had in the recent past and the result of that, in fact, for us, from the Home Affairs perspective in terms of the budget, is that that may well mean that the budget is more strained with the likelihood of more of the members of the Field Squadron being in the Island. It is a sort of budgeting complication. That is obviously being looked at in terms of the inter-governmental agreement and we are in discussions with the Ministry of Defence over that to try and get some certainty to the budget for the future and those discussions are going very well indeed. Deputy Fox again made very positive comments about the Jersey Field Squadron, with which, again, I entirely agree, and also he congratulated the staff of the Home Affairs Department on some of the difficult tasks that they have had to deal with in the last few years. Again, I completely reiterate his sentiments there. The Deputy is very keen on Design Against Crime from his previous life and, indeed, I share many of his ideas in this area. I would say that the States of Jersey Police certainly work closely with their colleagues in the Planning Department, particularly in the area of what is going to be happening down on the waterfront. I know that there has been very close discussions about how crime can best be designed out in the design of buildings and the way in which that area is going to be developed. He also asked a particular question about the offence of larceny as to why indeed we still have it as an offence in Jersey. It is one of those strange things that I am often asked about what does "larceny" mean and why do we not have a "theft" act. I have to say that I have never had any particular pressure brought to me from either the States of Jersey Police or the Attorney General to change that law, so I am not in any particular hurry to do so but, no doubt, that might be something that the new Minister for Home Affairs might consider in the future. I was asked by Deputy Ferguson about the arrangements for the accounting officers in terms of Objective 8. I would say that the Home Affairs Department is the only department with 2 chief officers and they are both members of the Corporate Management Board, but there is one accounting officer. The chief officer of Police gives an annual assurance to the accounting officer in order that he can sign off the statement on internal controls for the annual accounts and financial advice for the States of Jersey Police is provided by the Home Affairs finance team. That is how we deal with that. She also asked a further question about the Audit Department of the States of Jersey Police. Within the