States Meeting Transcript - 31/03/2009

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 31st MARCH 2009

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

1. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE CONTROL OF STATES EXPENDITURE:........8
2. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINIISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE MONITORING AND REGULATION OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT AND ALL THE OTHER ACTIVITIES AT LA COLLETTE: ............................................8
3. THE DEPUTY OF GROUVILLE OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE RECIPROCAL HEALTH AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM:....................................10
4. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE DEMOLITION OF ANN COURT:...............................................11
5. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE IMPORTATION OF TASAR STUN-GUNS FOR USE IN JERSEY:...............................................................................12
6. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING TALKS BETWEEN THE RED ENSIGN GROUP AND UNITED KINGDOM AUTHORITIES:..........................................13
7. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT CONTRACT:13
8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING STATUTORY NOTICE PAYMENTS TO EX- WOOLWORTHS EMPLOYEES: ......................................................14
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE STIMULUS OF THE ECONOMY:...............................15
10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING INCOME INEQUALITIES CONTAINED WITHIN THE STRATEGIC PLAN:..................................................................................15
11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE WITHDRAWAL OF TRANSITIONAL BENEFITS TO HOUSEHOLDS RECEIVING INCOME SUPPORT: ..............................16
12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING

REGARDING THE LIMITATION OF INWARD MIGRATION:......................17

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................18

2.1 Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the recent appointment of the new Head of La Moye School:................18 Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..............18

2.1.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................18

2.1.2. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................18

3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................18
4. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................19

2.2. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding licences for land reclamation, bio-remediation, ash disposal, aggregates recycling, green waste composting, and storage of asbestos at La Collette:.............19 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment - rapporteur): .........................................................................................19

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................20
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................20
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..................................................................20
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................20
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:................................................................20
6. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................21
7. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................21
8. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................21
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................21
10. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : ............................................21
11. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier : ..................................................22
12. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................22

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding changes to inheritance legislation:..............................................................................22 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................22

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................23
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
4. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................23

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the transfer of thousands of tonnes of heavily contaminated landfill from the Castle Quay site to La Collette Reclamation site:.......................................24 Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): .........................................................................................24

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................24
2. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................24
3. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................25
4. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................25
5. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................25
6. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................25
7. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................26
8. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John : ........................................................26
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................26

5. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Economic Development regarding Jersey fishermen landing their catches directly at St. Malo: ..............................................27 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................27

1. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................27
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................27
3. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................27

6. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s regarding postal voting:..................................................................................28

Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s):...................28 2.6.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the discharge permit application for the "treated brackish water" from the excavation pit at la Collette:................................................................................28 The Deputy of Trinity (Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment - rapporteur): ......28

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................29
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................29
4. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................29
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................30
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................30
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................30
8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................30
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................30

8. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding his confidence in the Minister for Health and Social Services:................................................31 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................31

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................31
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
5. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................32

6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................32

9. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the behaviour of cyclists:32 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................33

1. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................33
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................33
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................33
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................33
5. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................34
6. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................34

10. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the potential impact of the loss of the Reciprocal Health Agreement with the U.K. on tourism:................................................................................34 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................34

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:..................................................34
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................35

3. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................35

2.11. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the sale of alcohol to people under age:.......................................................................35 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................35

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................36
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................36
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................36
4. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................36

12. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the relevance of the Nolan Test to Article 39A of the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002: ..............................................................................37 Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):.....37

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37

13. The Deputy of Grouville of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the compilation of responses to questions on G.S.T:........................................37 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................37

1. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................37
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................38
3. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................38
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................38

14. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the appointment of an Acting Deputy Chief of the States of Jersey Police:..................................39 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................39

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................39
2. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:...................................................39 The Deputy of St. Martin:....................................................................39
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier : .......................................................39
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................40
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................40
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................40

15. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding changes in legislation to make parents more responsible for their children's behaviour:..........................40 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................40

2.15.1 Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................40

16. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Attorney General regarding alleged breaches of the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002:...........................................................41 Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:............................................41

2.16.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:................................................................41

17. Deputy A.T. Dupré of St. Clement of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the impact of his recent comments on those with suicidal tendencies or coming to terms with bereavements: ............................................................42 Senator J.L. Perchard (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.........................42

1. Deputy A.T. Dupré:.................................................................42
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................42 The Deputy of St. Martin:....................................................................43 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................43
3. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................43
4. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................44
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................45
6. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................45
7. Deputy A.T. Dupré:.................................................................45

18. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the provision of more capacity on public transport during the morning rush hour:......45 The Connétable St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):............45

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................46
2. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................46
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................47
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................47
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................47
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................48

3. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services..................................................................................48

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................48 The Connétable of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):.........48

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................48
   2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................48
   3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................49

3.3.1 Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................49

4. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................49

3.4.1 Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................50

5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................50

3.5.1 The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................50

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................50

3.6.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................51

7. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................51

3.7.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................51

4. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources..52

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................52

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52
   2. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................53

4.2.1 The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................53

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................53

4.3.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................54

4. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................54

4.4.1 Deputy S. Pitman:......................................................................54

5. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................55

4.5.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................55

6. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................55
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................56

4.7.1 Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................56

8. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................56

4.8.1 The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................56

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................57

5. Statement by the Vice-Chairman of the Heath and Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel regarding the Williamson Report Review Sub-Panel..................57

5.1 Deputy G.P. Southern (Vice Chairman, Health and Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel):..................................................................................57

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................57
2. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................58

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :........................................................................58

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................58

6. Ministerial government: review (P.181/2009)..........................................58

6.1 The Deputy of St. John:................................................................58

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................60
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................61
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................61
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................62
5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................63
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................63

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................64

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................64 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................64

PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumption..............................................................64

7. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................65
8. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................66

9. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................67
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................68
11. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................69
12. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................69
13. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................71
14. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................71
15. The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................72
16. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................73

7. Draft Royal Court (Amendment No. 12) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.19/2009)..............74

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................74 Senator S.C. Ferguson (Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel).......................75
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................75

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................75
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................75
   3. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................75

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................75
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................75

8. Goods and Services Tax: exemption or zero-rating for foodstuffs and domestic energy (P.28/2009)...............................................................................76

1. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................76

2. Goods and Services Tax: exemption or zero-rating for foodstuffs and domestic energy (P.28/2009) – amendment (P.28/2009 amd.)............................................80

1. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................80
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................81
3. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................82
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................82
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................83
6. Deputy T. Pitman: ......................................................................83
7. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................83
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................84

9. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................84
10. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................85
11. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................86
12. Deputy A.T. Dupré:.................................................................86
13. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence : ..................................................86
14. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................86
15. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................87
16. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................87
17. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................88
18. Deputy A.K.F. Green:...............................................................88

Goods and Services Tax: exemption or zero-rating for foodstuffs and domestic energy

(P.28/2009) - continued..................................................................89

3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................89
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................91
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................92
6. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................97
7. Connétable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour : ............................................97
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................98
9. The Connétable of St. Peter:..........................................................100
10. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................100 The Deputy Bailiff :..........................................................................101

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................101

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE CONTROL OF STATES EXPENDITURE: Question

What tools, if any, does the Treasurer of the States have at his disposal to control overall States Expenditure?

Answer

The control and approval of States' expenditure is, in the main, governed by the Public Finances (Jersey) Law 2005.

The prime tools available to the Treasurer to control States expenditure are Article 34 of the Public Finances Law, the power to issue financial directions, and Article 36, to request the Chief Internal Auditor to undertake audits of departments.

2. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINIISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE MONITORING AND REGULATION OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT AND ALL THE OTHER ACTIVITIES AT LA COLLETTE:

Question

Can the Minister inform the Assembly exactly how the monitoring and regulation of the construction of the Energy from Waste plant and of all the other activities at La Collette is being carried out?

Could the Minister advise the Assembly of the checklist of areas of violations of working practices that inspectors look for, by whom and when this list was drawn up, and the scale of penalties for non- compliance?

Answer

The monitoring and regulation of construction at the La Collette Energy from Waste facility is carried out by the following agencies:

CSBC ( Jersey) Limited

The Contractor has primary responsibility on site for the monitoring and regulation of all activities relating to the construction of the Energy from Waste facility in accordance with Jersey Health and Safety at Work law and regulations, the Planning Consent and, in addition as a contractual requirement, due to the size and complexity of the project, the UK Construction and Design Management 2007 regulations are being utilised to monitor this project.

Fichtner Consulting Engineers Limited

The Department has contracted Fichtner Consulting Engineers Limited to project manage the delivery of the Energy from Waste Facility in accordance with the agreed Contract which follows the Institute of Chemical Engineers red book standard form of contract. This requires the Project Manager to monitor and oversee the management of construction on site in accordance with the Contract. As such, Fichtner have a presence on site during the construction period.

Transport and Technical Services

The Department' Waste Strategy Team carry out monitoring of the construction on site and have recourse to a Construction Design and Management Coordinator to ensure that coordination of health and safety activities is carried out by the Contractor in accordance with the requirements of the Construction Design and Management Regulations 2007.

Planning and Environment Department

The Development Control section will monitor and regulate the implementation of the Conditions associated with the granting of the Planning Permission for the Energy from Waste Facility including the Construction Management Plan.

The Building Control section will monitor and regulate the Building Control Permission from application to building completion and consent for occupation.

The Environmental Regulator will monitor and regulate the implementation of the Construction Management Plan and other areas of the Planning Permission and specific activities requiring consent from that Department during construction, for example Discharge Consents, Waste Management Licences and other pollution control measures required in relation to the development.

Health Protection Service

The Health Protection service will monitor and regulate the implementation of the Construction Management Plan and Air Quality Monitoring programme for the construction. The Department ensure that no Statutory Nuisance occurs in contravention of the Statutory Nuisances (Jersey) Law 1999.

Health and Safety Service

The contractor is required under Jersey law to work in accordance with the Health and Safety at Work (Jersey) law and associated regulations which are enforced by the Health and Safety Inspectorate from the Employment and Social Security Department.

The above regulators (Planning and Environment, Health Protection and the Health and Safety Service) all perform similar roles in relation to regulating activities at the La Colette site.

The regulators are making regular visits to the site to determine compliance with the construction management plans and to ensure that the conditions of any permit or consent are being adhered to. The inspectors will work with the contractor to ensure that any breaches of practices are corrected. The penalties for breaching consent or permit conditions are set out in the relevant legislation, they could include two years imprisonment or a fine. It is not, however, expected that breaches significant enough to warrant enforcement action will arise.

3. THE DEPUTY OF GROUVILLE OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE RECIPROCAL HEALTH AGREEMENT WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM:

Question

Following the expiry of the Health agreement with the United Kingdom on 1st April 2009, would the Minister explain -

1. how the decision that the agreement should not be renewed was arrived at, and the consequence that Jersey residents should in future take out their own health insurance before travelling to the United Kingdom (UK)?

Answer

On 15th May 2008, Senior Health and Social Services Officers travelled to the Department of Health and were informed that providing free emergency healthcare for UK visitors to the Channel Islands was no longer the policy of the UK government and have given notice to that effect. This notice is operative from 1st April 2009 for Jersey and Guernsey and 2010 for the Isle of Man. It is the policy of the UK Government that all its citizens who fall ill or sustain an injury whilst travelling overseas, should take out appropriate travel insurance which should include medical evacuation.

Importantly, the final letter from Rt Hon Dawn Primarolo dated 25th February clearly states that the reciprocal agreement is "to terminate on 31st March 2009". Obviously it is now impossible for Jersey to have a reciprocal agreement where the UK does not wish to reciprocate.

Question

2. what steps, if any,theMinisterhastakentoresearchand introduce an All Island Collective Travel Policy for Islanders which would covercosts of treatment and admission in UK hospitals and repatriation where necessary and, if not, why not?

Answer

As Minister for Health and Social Services my primary task is to ensure high quality health

and social care for islanders within available resources. The Health and Social Services Department does not have the expertise, nor can it envisage the circumstances whereby it possess the expertise, to manage a travel insurance business which involves commercial risk taking, underwriting and knowledge of the local and global insurance market. For this reason, Jersey is adopting the same approach as the Isle of Man and Guernsey which is to allow the travel insurance market to create cost effective and competitive policies for Jersey residents.

Question

3. whether family members, who were born and brought up in Jersey and come back to the Island to visit their relatives, are entitled to free treatment in Jersey's hospital?

Answer

If an individual is ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom, by definition they cannot be considered ordinarily resident in Jersey as well. By defining themselves as ordinarily resident in the UK they enjoy the benefits of "free" healthcare via the National Health Service rather than free healthcare via Jersey Health and Social Services. In the circumstances described, individuals born and brought up in Jersey, who then choose to

reside overseas but then come back to the Island to holiday or visit their relatives will not be entitled to free healthcare as they are not ordinarily resident in Jersey.

Question

4. what provisions, if any, are being made by the Health and Social Services Department for those persons over 80 years old, if insurance companies do not cover them?

Answer

No provisions are being made by the Health and Social Services Department for those persons over 80 years old regarding travel insurance.

Question

5. what would happen if a Jersey person was taken ill in the UK, repatriated to Jersey and then had to be sent back to the UK by Jersey General Hospital for treatment that was not available here?

Answer

A Jersey person, falling ill in the UK would receive free care in the Accident & Emergency department of the UK hospital but would then be liable for further treatment costs up to and including repatriation to Jersey. In the unlikely event that they were then required to be sent back to the UK for further specialist treatment, this would be free to the individual as Health and Social Services pay for treatment at specialist UK centres where the patient has been referred by a Health and Social Services consultant.

4. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE DEMOLITION OF ANN COURT:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether the tender to demolish Ann Court has been accepted, how the process was advertised and whether he has been contacted since its acceptance, with a considerably lower offer to do this work and if so, by how much?

Will the Minister advise whether all the debris from the demolition will be taken to La Collette for recycling in controlled conditions, and, if not, why not?

Answer

The Minister for Housing approved the demolition of Ann Court on 4th March 2009, subject to approval by the Minister for Treasury and Resources, which is awaited. The Minister has, on the basis of advice from the Project Management team at Transport and Technical Services, accepted a tender in the amount of £349,540 for the demolition from D B Cummins Ltd.

The tender process for the demolition contract was undertaken by Transport and Technical Services and was conducted in accordance with the procedures set out in Financial Direction 5.6. A notice for expressions of interest was published in the Gazette on 6th, 7th and 8th November and expressions of interest were subsequently received from four demolition and building contractors. All of these interested parties were invited to tender. Three tenderers submitted prices. The tender from D B Cummins Limited was the lowest tender.

An e-mail from a demolition contractor was received by the Minister for Housing on 19th March advising that they had submitted a price for the demolition works as a subcontractor to one of the unsuccessful tenderers. The e-mail did include information about the sum which the subcontractor had submitted to the unsuccessful tenderer. Details of unsuccessful tender figures are confidential and as such cannot be released prior to the signing of formal contracts with the successful tenderer. However, I would be more than happy to release details of all the tenders received once contracts have been signed.

The demolition debris will not be taken to La Collette for recycling. The successful tender recommended for acceptance by Transport and Technical Services provides for recycling demolition debris on site. The tender and evaluated method statements include meeting all environmental protection standards set by the regulators.

5. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE IMPORTATION OF TASAR STUN-GUNS FOR USE IN JERSEY:

Question

Would the Minister advise the Assembly whether talks with the United Kingdom on importing TASAR stun guns for use in Jersey have stalled and, if so, why?

Given that the Isle of Man Police now have this equipment, does the Minister consider that the use of TASARs in Jersey is appropriate?

Answer

Talks with the United Kingdom on importing Tasar stun guns for use in Jersey have not stalled; the matter is still actively being pursued.

Without Tasar in its armoury, the States of Jersey Police has a tactical shortfall with regards to less lethal technology that leaves the organisation (and its officers) vulnerable to both moral and legal challenge, should the Force ever have to take the life of, or seriously injure a subject.

The Conflict Management Model, contained within the ACPO Personal Safety Manual of Guidance sets out the process by which a measured and appropriate response can be made to any situation involving conflict.

The acquisition and deployment of such a technology is therefore vitally important in order to provide all available use of force' options for front line operational officers.

ACPO policy highlights that TASAR is not a replacement for existing personal safety tactical options, but is a technology that should be considered alongside all other considerations i.e. Negotiation, use of baton, C.S spray and dogs. These options do not constitute a hierarchy of lawful force however should be viewed as a range of approved options from which the most proportionate and appropriate should be selected, according to circumstances, and in accordance with the conflict management model that sets out the process by which a measured and appropriate response can be made to any situation involving conflict.

Tasars have been recommended to the States of Jersey Police by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary in order to meet their obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights (Article 2 - right to life).

6. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING TALKS BETWEEN THE RED ENSIGN GROUP AND UNITED KINGDOM AUTHORITIES:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether members of the Red Ensign Group have been meeting with United Kingdom Authorities in recent times and, if so, would he outline the nature of the talks and where the Island stands on any negotiations?

Answer

Yes – members of the Red Ensign Group have met on a number of occasions in recent times, as follows:

1. Wednesday 1stOctober2008 – meeting concerning legislation applicable to serious crimes committed in British ships. This took place in Southampton and was attended by UK officials as well as representatives from a number of the Red Ensign Group -

Bermuda, BVI, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar, Isle of Man , Guernsey and Jersey.

2. Thursday 2nd October 2008 - meeting ofthe Red Ensign Group Technical Forum. This also took place in Southampton and was attended by UK officials as well as the same representatives from the Red Ensign Group. The Forum firstly dealt with the terms of reference ofthe group before addressing technical matters such as lifting gear in ships, passenger ship stability, radar performance standards and procedures for notification of alternative design arrangements.
3. Thursday 30thJanuary2009 – meeting of the British Certification Committee concerning small commercial vessels. The focus of the meeting was between certifying authorities, district councils, the UK ship registryand its Maritime and Coastguard Agency. As a member ofthe Red Ensign Group Jersey was invited and its surveyors, MECAL (Jersey) Ltd, attended on its behalf. Matters covered included progress towards a harmonised safetycode for small craft and a voluntary codeof conduct for operators of rigid inflatable craft.
4. Regarding negotiations, Jersey is an equal member of the group of 12 jurisdictions andalltryto secure the best standards for British shipping worldwide. The word negotiations' is not perhaps quite appropriate.

7. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT CONTRACT: Question

Given that the Treasury were aware of funding for the Energy from Waste Plant would be required in Euros in July 2008, would the Minister explain why the pre-purchase of euro funds was not put in place at an early stage?

Answer

This matter has been considered and reported on in some detail by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his recent report. As I have already reported to members, a disciplinary process is underway concerning matters arising from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and I can not comment further at this stage.

8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING STATUTORY NOTICE PAYMENTS TO EX- WOOLWORTHS EMPLOYEES:

Question

Will the Minister give a further update on, and explanation for, the figures he gave to the Assembly in a written response to a question asked by Deputy S. Pitman on 10th March regarding Statutory notice payments to ex-Woolworth employees, and, in particular, will he state why only 43 employees out of 84 were eligible to claim?

Answer

As at Friday 27th March, of the 43 former Woolworth's employees who were entitled to statutory notice, the employment data and notice payment entitlements of 38 former employees have been validated and confirmed.

Of those 38 employees, 32 individuals have assigned their right to the States. Cheques representing statutory notice pay due have been posted to 30 of those individuals totalling £116,306, which represents more than three quarters of the total amount due.

The two further assignments were signed very recently. When the Department receives those assignments, the payments will be authorised as quickly as possible.

Payments have so far been sent to the former employees within one to two days of the Social Security Department receiving each employee's signed assignment.

Assignments have been prepared for a further six individuals who have not yet come forward to sign their assignments, despite being notified by their legal representative. Cheques representing statutory notice pay will not be issued until individuals have assigned their right to the States.

The Department is awaiting further documentation to validate continuity of employment for the remaining five individuals. The employees' legal representative has requested the required information from those employees.

Deputy Southern 's Propostion "Woolworths employees: redundancy payments" (P.2/2009) notes that, "There are some 84 staff in total {34 full-time (32 – 45 hours per week) 10 part-time (8 –

30 hours) and 40 Saturday staff}"

When validated, the employee data provided by Woolworths confirmed that 41 of the 84 employees were contracted to work less than 8 hours a week so were not entitled to a statutory minimum period of notice, or pay in lieu of that notice, under the Employment (Jersey) Law 2003. Most of these 41 employees were young Saturday staff.

I would like to take this opportunity to advise Members that plans will shortly be publicised setting out the criteria that will be applied in cases where employers have become insolvent and have not given employees' their statutory period of notice on termination of employment, as required by the Employment (Jersey) Law 2003.

As I stated during the debate of P.34/2009, the system will be very closely based on the UK's insolvency scheme, and to that effect, the payments in lieu of notice will be calculated based on the employee's actual losses suffered. Any income received from employment and some benefits received during the period of notice will be offset against statutory notice payments, therefore reducing the period remaining to be paid in lieu by the States. Employees will be expected to attempt to minimise their losses by actively seeking employment during any period of notice in which they are not working. In particular, employees turning down the offer of employment, by either the employer or administrator of the insolvent business, without good reason, will not be entitled to any payments under this scheme.

I have become aware that a period of notice was given to the employees of Poundworld and in some cases that period will be sufficient to meet the requirements of the Employment Law. Only statutory periods of notice which have not already been worked by employees will be paid by the States.

9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE STIMULUS OF THE ECONOMY:

Question

In view of the fact that in his written response to a question on 20th January 2009, the Chief Minister promised to share with members the economic analysis of the economy to be discussed during February at the Council of Ministers, and the package of stimulus measures to be completed in the first week of March, would he advise whether he is yet in a position to share this information with members?

Answer

The new economic forecasts that were seen by the Council of Ministers in February have already been shared with States members at the workshops on the Strategic Plan. The preliminary central estimates are that while real GVA growth remained positive in 2008, GVA will contract by 4% this year and a further 2% in 2010. Given the lack of data on the Jersey economy and the unusually uncertain economic times there are, however, significant uncertainties around these forecasts.

In terms of when information on the fiscal stimulus package will be shared with Members the Deputy is referred to the answer of the Treasury and Resources Minister to the Deputy 's written question on 10th March 2009, in particular that  "The Fiscal Stimulus package is still being developed and the intention remains that it will be lodged alongside the Strategic Plan on 8th April 2009 ". There will then be ample time for discussion with States Members and Scrutiny before the debate in June.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING INCOME INEQUALITIES CONTAINED WITHIN THE STRATEGIC PLAN:

Question

What specific and concrete measures, either fiscal or otherwise, does the Chief Minister propose to reduce income inequalities for his 5-year vision for Jersey contained in the Strategic Plan?

Will he further comment on the growing inequality in earnings over the last decade, as revealed in Table A5 of the Jersey Economic Digest 2008, between the Financial Services sector and all other sectors of our economy, and will he work with his Ministers for Treasury and Resources and Economic Development to address this widening gap?

Answer

In order to measure income inequality, it is necessary to analyse income levels by households, not by sectors. The Jersey Income Distribution survey provides such information in terms of the Gini coefficient, the most commonly used indicator of income inequality. In 2002, the Gini coefficient for Jersey was similar to that of the UK. The Statistics Unit will shortly be launching the 2009/10 Household Spending and Income Survey. This survey will provide robust household-level income data and will enable an updated measure of the Gini coefficient and household income distribution analysis.

Table A5 of the 2008 Jersey Economic Digest presents average weekly earnings by sector. However, this table does not provide evidence of income inequality across Jersey's households; firstly, the table does not take into account the sectoral distribution of workers in households and, secondly, it does not include unearned income. Furthermore, the ratio of average earnings in the Finance sector to that of all other sectors has remained substantially constant over the past 5 years.

Nonetheless the draft Strategic Plan sets out how we intend to support the Island community through the downturn with a particular emphasis on supporting local employment. The Plan also sets out our medium-term objectives to maintain a strong, sustainable and diverse economy. I will certainly work with other Ministers in addressing these issues. However, economic policy alone is not enough and the Strategic Plan also focuses on how we can assist people to fulfil their potential and make the best of their opportunities. Where inadequate income is seen as a barrier to this, programmes, particularly income support and skills provision are available to help.

11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE WITHDRAWAL OF TRANSITIONAL BENEFITS TO HOUSEHOLDS RECEIVING INCOME SUPPORT:

Question

Will the Minister inform members what sum of money, if any, he will be withdrawing from the benefits of households currently in receipt of £22.5 million worth of protected payments on 1st October 2009 when the transitional period for the introduction of the Income Support system comes to an end.?

Will he further state how the overall sum will be divided between households in the 5 groups mentioned in his previous oral response (on 10th March 2009), namely

(a)those with moderate to severe disability (0%)

(b)those with a pensioner or DTA recipient (25%)

(c)those where income exceeds IS entitlement by a factor of 3 or more (100%) (d)those with the biggest percentage reduction in income (20%)

(e)all other households (33%)

and how many households each group contains?

Has the Minister given any consideration to postponing this action, given the impact of the recession on the economy and, if so, what success, if any, has he had in negotiations with the Minister for Treasury and Resources and his other colleagues to maintain protected payments?

Answer

I can confirm that the protected payments available under the Income Support system will not come to an end in October 2009. The first reduction in protected payments is due to be implemented in October 2009.

The analysis requested by the Deputy cannot be completed by 30th March and will be provided at a future States sitting.

I have given consideration to postponing the first reduction in protected payments. A proposal to that effect is included in the package of economic stimulus measures that is currently being reviewed by the Fiscal Policy Panel.

12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE LIMITATION OF INWARD MIGRATION:

Question

Will the Minister inform members how he intends to meet the stated target of limiting inward migration to 200 heads of households (420  in total) given the figures  for the numbers of J' category applicants, showing totals of 498 and 523 approvals (and only around 60 refusals) in 2007 and 2008?

What consideration, if any, has been given to new criteria for new approvals or is the Minister relying on the recession to reduce recruitment and thereby requests?

What policy, if any, will he apply and at what level following the end of any recession in, for example, 2 years' time?

Answer

By  nature, 1(1)(j) employees tend to be highly skilled and highly mobile, and therefore  it is somewhat spurious to link gross approvals with net inward migration.

The Strategic Plan proposals relate to net inward migration of 200 heads of households per year, and is a 5 yearly measure designed to ensure that migration can be managed over the economic cycle. As to 1(1)(j) employees, while it is correct that 498 applications were approved in 2007, the numbers working in the private sector in Jersey increased by just 100 in that same year, and this was a particularly buoyant year economically. Manpower figures for 2008 are due in April, but it is expected that net changes will be significantly lower than the gross numbers quoted. By way of comparison, 2009 is showing 1(1)(j) approval numbers down by around a quarter and there is some expectations of numbers continuing to reflect the changing economic conditions.

As to the ability to manage numbers, these mechanisms are by definition flexible, and have coped well for decades though successive States targets and varying economic conditions, and will continue to do so.

Furthermore, through the creation of the Population Office and Migration Advisory Group we now have a new opportunity to apply the 1(1)(j) permissions and the non locally qualified licences under the Regulation of Undertakings and Development Law in wholly co-ordinated and pragmatic manner, to suit the economic climate, and to meet over the medium term whatsoever targets to States approve.

2. Oral Questions

2.1 Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the recent appointment of the new Head of La Moye School:

In the light of the recent appointment of the new Head of La Moye School, will the Minister confirm that due process was observed by the department and will he inform Members of the measures in place to promote home grown talent to top positions?

Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

I can confirm that I am satisfied that due process was observed by my department during this appointment. I am also satisfied that a robust appointments procedure is in place that ensures selection is made against a clear set of professional criteria. To ensure that, insofar as it is possible local candidates are properly prepared to compete, a number of leadership development programmes are in place. These include Leading, Learning and Teaching; Leading from Experience; The Established Leaders' Programme; The National Professional Qualification for Headship, The Leadership Programme for Serving Head Teachers; and The Consultant Head Teachers' Programme. In addition, deputy head teachers may also be offered a secondment or a period as acting head teacher in order to develop their skills further. The success of this strategy is particularly evident in the primary school phase where we have not appointed a head teacher from off-Island in over 20 years.

2.1.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Would the Minister outline whether his department has experienced previous difficulties with the appointment of principalships from outside the Island and what lessons were learnt on those occasions?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I do not, as I said in my response, believe that we have faced any difficulties within the primary school phase. There have, as I understand it, been issues in the secondary schools, however, I do believe that they were unfortunate incidents and did not reflect the failings in the process.

2.1.2. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister be prepared to state, with the benefit of hindsight, whether the manner in which the Education Department communicated the appointment of the new proposed head teacher at La Moye was done in the correct way and if it were to be done all over again would he change the way it was done?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Communication with hindsight is always questionable. Certainly my view is that the procedure and the process was handled correctly. However, I suppose the department - and it was quite fortunate in some respects - did not expect the amount of support that the deputy head teacher was shown by the parents, which we celebrate and are encouraged by it. That was the only area that, I think, perhaps in hindsight, if we had known of those feelings, we could have perhaps dealt with the matter in a better manner.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

There seems to have been widespread confusion and perhaps some misinformation in the media so could the Minister clarify the residential status of the new teacher who has been appointed, in fact, whether they are from the Island or from the U.K. (United Kingdom)?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

The new head teacher has lived in the Island since 2002. She has a family and a daughter that has been born on the Island and, as such, she is quite entitled to apply and be considered for the position.

4. Senator B.E. Shenton:

The Minister admitted that he was surprised by the reaction of the parents. Would it not have been a good idea to find out what the parents thought of the acting teacher when you are going through the interview process? Does this not show a complete failing by the department to do their job properly?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Not at all, we would expect, in fact, all teachers to be supported by the parents. In fact it would be ridiculous to believe otherwise. In this particular case the issue was more about concerns over how the teacher was dealt with than the support that the parents were offering. The teacher himself has been totally embarrassed by the whole issue and certainly believes that at this time a line should be drawn under this unfortunate issue.

2.2. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding licences for land reclamation, bio-remediation, ash disposal, aggregates recycling, green waste composting, and storage of asbestos at La Collette:

Could the Minister explain why licences for land reclamation by a bio-remediation, ash disposal, aggregates recycling, green waste composting and storage of asbestos at La Collette have still to be issued under the Waste Management (Jersey) Law 2005 which came into force in 2 stages in November 2006 and February 2007.

Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

The Assistant Minister, the Deputy of Trinity , has special responsibility for the environment and the Deputy of St. Mary has kindly agreed that she may answer this question.

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment -

rapporteur):

The Waste Management (Jersey) Law 2005 included transitional provisions that allowed existing waste management sites to continue to operate until they are awarded waste management licensing, provided that they (a) have existed prior to the Law coming into force and (b) applied for waste management licence in the period stipulated in the Law. My department is currently assessing the very many licence applications made, including those from operators based at La Collette, before they determine them later this year. Members must realise that this is not a quick process. I am sure the Deputy is aware that the waste management licensing process is extremely complex. Its introduction has changed the face of the waste management industry in Jersey. It applies both to public and private sector operators and to all types of facilities. The ultimate goal is to reduce the impact of waste sites on the environment. Considerable care must therefore be taken to ensure that licence applications are reviewed and determined in an appropriate and robust manner. Best practice has to be considered in relation to every type of recovery and disposal process and unfortunately that takes time. I can assure the Deputy that my officers are making good progress with this matter. In the meantime the sites operating under the transitional provision allowances are under increasing pressures to conform with good environmental practice.

1. The Deputy of St. Mary :

I thank the Assistant Minister for that answer and about the stress she puts on the fact that care must be taken and best practice followed. But it does concern me that the Law was passed by the States in the middle of 2004 - on 8th June 2004 - which means that T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) knew from then that they would have to apply for a licence and the Law was registered in March 2005. That is a long time ago. Could the Minister tell the House when T.T.S. submitted the application for the licences? Particularly for land reclamation and ash disposal.

The Deputy of Trinity :

Taking the second part of the Deputy 's question first, I am sorry, I have not got that information at hand but I will certainly get it and come back to him and to other Members if they wish it. As I said, this Law is very complex and it does take an awful lot of time but the most important thing is that when it did come into force - in 2006 - they had to apply under the transitional licence that had existed prior to the Law coming into force. We realise that there is some work still to do and that is what we are undertaking and hopefully well within this year T.T.S. should have the appropriate licences.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

There is a phrase I believe: "Justice delayed is justice denied", similarly licences delayed are licences denied. The Assistant Minister stated that some of the organisations concerned are coming under increasing pressure to perform to best practice. What that effectively says is that we are not achieving best practice and we are achieving slack old standards that have been made illegal without a licence under this Law. When is she going to apply this Law? It has taken 2½ years now already.

The Deputy of Trinity :

I totally disagree with the Deputy . It is good practice and we must all aspire to having good practice and over the last years that practice has increased and we must meet the E.U. (European Union) as well. The department is working with all the relevant operators, both in the public and private sector to make sure that they all fulfil their obligation and come up to the standard required.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Assistant Minister accept that between 2 and 2½ years to administer and grant a licence is an extremely and outrageously long time to be considering anything?

The Deputy of Trinity :

How long is a piece of string, Deputy ? Yes, you can say that but the most important thing is that to have the best practice in place, if it takes longer to get what we need in place, that is more important. That is aim of this Law.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Could I ask the Assistant Minister if treated water that contains toxic ash has been released into the marine environment from La Collette, and has there been any effect upon the marine environment from this, especially the oyster fisheries?

The Deputy of Trinity :

That is a very detailed question and I am not able to give the Deputy that full information. I am quite willing to do that.

5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Assistant Minister has been appointed the Minister in charge de facto because of a decision by the States not to have an Environment Minister. If she is not able to answer this specific question about contamination about oyster fisheries today, is she really in charge of this brief? Is anybody really in charge of the environmental brief?

The Deputy of Trinity :

That is a very specific question about the water contamination affecting the oyster farms and I would rather have more information behind that and give the right answer.

6. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

The Assistant Minister just answered saying: "How long is a piece of string?" when asked how much time is given to work on the particular Law. Can the Assistant Minister inform the House how much time really is being devoted on this Law or is it just done part-time when that person has time?

The Deputy of Trinity :

No, we have staff who are very professional in their work who do do this Waste Management Law and I have every faith and confidence but, as I said, it is a very complicated Law and it is not only in the private sector but it is public sector operators too and it needs to be right.

7. Senator S. Syvret:

The answer to the question asked by Deputy Le Claire, as far as the discharging of the contaminated water into the marine environment is concerned, is, yes, it is occurring and it has been analysed. Does the Deputy not recognise that what we are seeing here is a gross failing of the States of Jersey - yet another one - in its ability to properly regulate itself and respective departments? [Approbation] There is probably, I think it is fair to say, going to be no greater ever case of the handling of toxic waste, toxic land, toxic material being moved around and relocated in the history of Jersey. If the Law - that we knew was going to come into effect since 2004 - has not yet been properly replaced to deal with this mass dumping of contaminated toxic waste that is happening now then frankly what is the department doing?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The Law is in place and, as I have said a couple of times, it does take time to get all the operators up and working. We have as a report to your proposition back in 2008, Senator, I did give a paper about what different type of laws are in place and staff at Environment, as I said, they are very professional and they are doing a job but it does take time.

8. Senator S. Syvret:

Just a supplementary on that. Does the Deputy not accept that at present the States of Jersey are committing criminal offences, under a variety of heads of legislation? [Approbation]

The Deputy of Trinity :

No, I do not.

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

When the Assistant Minister investigated the matter, did the Assistant Minister accept the explanation that it was complex or did she find that there were some very clear and specific reasons for the delay?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I think the most important thing here is that, as I said, best practice needs to be done, and by E.U. waste management law too. So it is each section is so complicated and we need to make sure, as I said, that we have it in place and it is robust and that it is fit for purpose.

10. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Has the Assistant Minister seen the photographs taken by Save our Shoreline showing pools of toxic water in both the Castle Quays site and the La Collette site which are able to permeate through to the sea depending on the tide? Is this best practice and would it be acceptable if it was happening in Trinity ? [Approbation]

The Deputy of Trinity :

No, I cannot comment when I have not seen those particular photographs. Perhaps he would like to pass them on to me.

The Connétable of St. Helier :

I will happily do so.

11. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier :

Would the Assistant Minister give us an assurance that from today no discharge of this as described brackish water will take place until we are sure that it is safe to do so?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, I can. I would like to hope I can. Yes, I can be sure.

12. The Deputy of St. Mary :

I find it very concerning, and I think we all may do, that a law that is passed to protect the environment and the people of Jersey takes 4 years for anything to happen and on the basis that this is a major, major pollution issue what is going on at Castle Quay and La Collette, bearing in mind that what is being taken to La Collette from Bellozanne is regular consignments of toxic and very light fly ash which is liable to fly away in the wind, it really concerns me. My final question to the Assistant Minister is whether in the interests of open government and in view of the sensitivity of this issue and the importance of the various considerations that Members have raised today, will the Minister publish to Members the applications in full for the licenses for ash dumping and land reclamation from T.T.S. and the ensuing correspondence and minutes and, in particular, the conditions which are going to be imposed by the Minister for Planning and Environment?

The Deputy of Trinity : Yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary : I did not hear the answer. The Deputy Bailiff :

Yes, she said. Then we come to a question which the Deputy of St. Martin will ask of the Chief Minister.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding changes to inheritance legislation:

In view of the fact that on 11th November 2003 the States agreed to abolish discrimination on illegitimate offspring and to make proper provision for dependents of the deceased and further to his written response to a question on 20th January 2009, will the Chief Minister inform Members why the necessary legislation has not yet been lodged?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

Yes. The Deputy will recall that in my answer to the previous written question which I answered on 20th January this year and to which he refers, I stated that and I quote: "It will be for the new Legislation Advisory Panel to decide whether it is minded to recommend that the draft legislation already drafted is presented to this Assembly for approval in due course." I can advise Members that the Panel held its first short introductory meeting last week. The next meeting of the Panel, which will be its first substantive meeting, is due to be held in May 2009. I confirm that the Draft Wills and Successions (Amendment) (Jersey) Law 200- and the Draft Inheritance (Provisions for Family and Dependents) (Jersey) Law 200- will be on the agenda for that meeting. I will of course advise Members of the outcome of the Panel's discussions on this issue.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

As we heard with the last question how long it takes for a law to become implemented, will the Chief Minister explain why if this particular law was approved to be changed in 2003, which we know was outdated and certainly not human rights compliant, why was it not audited prior to the Appointed Day Act for the Human Rights Law a couple of years ago? In other words, should it not have been audited to ensure that it was correct and human rights compliant before we had the Human Rights Law Appointed Day?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The draft laws in question were drafted last year and they were referred to the Royal Court and to legal advisers for their fitness for purpose. At that time it was advised to us that there were some questions which needed answering about the drafting of the law, including perhaps whether it was fully human rights compliant. In order to ensure that the law when presented to the States was fit for purpose the Panel agreed to have further discussions with the parties concerned to resolve those issues. Those discussions are being held. The issues are being resolved and when they are resolved they will come to the States for approval.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the Chief Minister reiterate his lack of commitment to human rights by once more pledging not to sign up to various U.N. (United Nations) and E.U. conventions including the U.N. Convention for the Rights of the Child and the U.N. Convention for the Elimination of Discrimination against Women which the U.K. have been signed up to for 25 years?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I regard that as a totally improper and unnecessary question. I am committed to human rights. This law is implementing the human rights of the child in this respect. But with all these things they do not happen overnight. They happen once they are properly researched, properly drafted and then agreed by this House. That process is going ahead in compliance with our human rights obligations.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

I would venture that the question is perfectly proper and in order. I would ask the Chief Minister whether he thinks that overnight - a period of 25 years, for example - is perhaps misleading the House?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I do not believe I have misled the House at all. As my answers to the previous question said, this matter is being dealt with in accordance with the Convention for Human Rights and will be brought to the States for discussion.

4. Senator B.E. Shenton:

The failure of the States to implement this law is causing considerable distress in a number of cases at a human level. Will the Chief Minister give an undertaking to try and speed-up the legislative process but also give an undertaking that when laws are passed by this House, they are implemented?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am happy to confirm that I shall do my best to encourage the process to take place as speedily as possible. Once the law is drafted it should be enacted and enforced as soon as possible.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Would the Chief Minister inform Members why in a letter dated 17th July 2007, we state via the Bailiff that we do not wish to have the protocol the U.N. Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment extended to Jersey. Can he state why this should be so?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , that is not related to a question about illegitimate offspring. Deputy of St. Martin, do you wish to ask a final question? No, okay. Very well. We come to question 4 which Deputy Higgins will ask of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

4. Deputy M.R.HigginsofSt.HelieroftheMinisterforTransportandTechnicalServices regarding the transfer of thousands of tonnes of heavily contaminated landfill from the Castle Quay site to La Collette Reclamation site:

Can the Minister give the Assembly full details of the transfer of thousands of tonnes of heavily contaminated landfill from the Castle Quay site to La Collette reclamation site in recent weeks and advise under which permits, regulations and laws these movements are being carried out?

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical

Services):

The first excavated material from Castle Quay was transferred to the La Collette reclamation site on 8th January 2008 under the Waste Management (Jersey) Law 2005. A pre-notification consignment note number 01531 was received and accepted by the waste regulator. To date - that was of 27th March - 133,132 tonnes of landfill waste has been received at La Collette and treated as follows: 119,557 tonnes has been received as reclamation landfill; 10,990 tonnes of incinerator ash has also been encapsulated into 2 lined bays; 2,585 tonnes has been recovered as stone for recycled aggregates. On a point of clarity, 107,000 tonnes received related to the Les Pas Holdings Agreement and were received at no charge. The full La Collette gate fee was charged for the remaining amount.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Could I ask the Minister what precautions have been taken to protect the public with the transfer of some of this material? We know that drivers are wearing masks and that vehicles are being washed down far more than is normal but what measures have been taken to protect the public - including at La Collette - because we believe that large clouds of dust have been generated on this movement?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The vehicles transporting the materials from Castle Quay to La Collette are enclosed vehicles. All sensible precautions are taken. When any ash is put into the ash pits of La Collette they are lightly covered with sand to prevent any toxic ash going towards the Havre des Pas area.

2. The Deputy of St. Mary :

The problem with covering the ash when it has been dumped is that as it is falling off the lorry the wind takes it and casts it all over Havre des Pas. I wanted to ask the Minister whether he regrets the fact that the Waste Management Law which he mentioned does not apply to these consignments because it has not been implemented.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The disposal of these wastes being accepted at La Collette was done under the Planning Permit registration number 17742A. The reclamation site at La Collette is permitted to receive these wastes under the agreed conditions. All sensible precautions are taken. The department does not wish to prejudice either its staff or the public in any way whatsoever.

3. Senator S. Syvret:

The Minister just said all sensible precautions are being taken. I would like to know what his standards of sensible precautions are given that the resultant dumping of rubble which is contaminated with ash is taking place down the tipping faces of the site. This is causing pollution to the water. It has been filmed and photographed by members of the public. Is the Minister seriously trying to tell us that is acceptable standards?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I do not agree with the Senator's allegations that any toxic materials have been dumped in the water. The subject of water being pumped out of the excavated bunker pit is the subject of another question. That water is being purified. The analysis produced by the Deputy of St. Mary alluded to the analysis of silt removed from that area and was not in connection with the water that is pumped out and is purified. I am confident that the processes undertaken by my department comply with all regulations and the regulations set by the Environmental Department are of an adequate level to protect the general public and the staff working down there.

4. Senator S. Syvret:

Can I ask a supplementary on that, Sir? Does the Minister not appreciate the difference between water that is deliberately pumped out and, as he alleges, purified - although it is greatly doubtful that it is in fact pure - and the fact that very huge volumes of contaminated sea water daily move in and out of the site twice because of the actions of the tide?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

While I would dispute the Senator's allegations about toxic water being pumped out into the sea, I would agree that the water does in fact flow in twice a day as per nature. His allegation, as I understand it, is that toxic water is flowing in and flowing out. That is not the case. Effectively we have clean sea water filtering into the excavated site and the same is working back. The sea water is flowing back out again. There is no indication of any toxicity in that water whatsoever.

5. Senator B.E. Shenton:

Under the terms of the Les Pas deal, the States of Jersey taxpayer was committed to pick up the tab for moving the toxic waste from Castle Quay. In fact the developer with this in mind increased the depth to which he was going to sink and increase the number of floors with the knowledge that the taxpayer was going to pick up the cost. Would the Minister be able to come back to this Assembly to give us a total cost to his department of undertaking this disposal paid for by the taxpayer on behalf of Les Pas?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes. In fact I am quite happy to come back to the Assembly with those figures. But referring to my answer, the tonnage if you like was 107,000 tonnes. That is the amount involved. Of course the loss to the department if you could call it that would be the loss of gate fee pertaining to that particular figure. But I can certainly transfer that into a monetary amount for Members and I shall do so.

6. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Does the Minister agree that an independent regulator we all want to be in place in the Island would do much to reassure the public that all the proper measures are being taken with regard to the ash disposal?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We already have a regulator. The regulator operates from a completely different department from mine. I see that as a perfectly adequate measure for safeguarding the public of the Island. I think if the public are not satisfied with the present regulation in place, they need to address that particular department who will take measures to address it.

7. The Connétable of St. Helier :

A supplementary, Sir. Could the Minister be more specific about where the regulator operates from?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The regulator operates from the Environment Department.

8. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

Yes, a point of clarification. Could the Minister please try and clarify for me because I am hearing from a member of my Scrutiny Panel that everything in reference to the ash is tipped and it can fly into the atmosphere. Would the Minister confirm or not whether this ash is damp and, therefore, would not be flying in the atmosphere given that it is buried below ground and given that the natural conditions of anything below the surface generally would be moist. Would there be a problem with ash flying or would it be a moister movement of materials?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I have no evidence of ash flying around at La Collette. Indeed I would think commonsense would dictate that the soil being removed from the Castle Quay site will be damp because it has been there for several years. From personal experience of working in the La Collette area has indicated that I have not noticed any or none has been drawn to my attention. I am at a loss as to where the evidence the Deputy of St. Mary used is coming from.

9. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Minister content that after 4 years his department is still operating a dumping policy without a license to reassure that it is achieving best practice?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

My department is operating under licenses, the numbers of which I quoted earlier on. I am perfectly satisfied that we operate best practice and have no wish to operate in any other manner whatsoever.

10. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Really it is following on from the Deputy of St. John. Photographs have been taken of the plumes of dust at La Collette by Save our Shoreline. We will make sure the photographs are circulated.

The Deputy Bailiff : So your question? Deputy M.R. Higgins:

My question for the Minister is if the material is damp, why is the ash flying and if it is flying will he please give an undertaking that they will dampen it down in future for movement?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes.

5. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Economic Development regarding Jersey fishermen landing their catches directly at St. Malo:

Will the Minister explain what action, if any, he intends to take in negotiating the removal of the ongoing ban on Jersey fishermen landing their catches directly at St. Malo when they are allowed to do so freely at St. Brieuc and Roscoff?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):

I would like to ask my Assistant Minister, the Constable of St. Clement, to answer this question. He has delegated responsibility for agriculture and all other fishy matters. I have spoken to the Deputy following last week's incident and the Deputy has agreed.

Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Assistant Minister for Economic Development -

rapporteur):

I am pleased to advise the Deputy that there is no ban on Jersey fishermen landing their catches at St. Malo. There were some difficulties experienced in early 2008 but diligent work by the Economic Development Department negotiating with many parties, including the St. Malo Customs Service, resulted in a convention being drawn up as a result of which for the first customs clearance only one copy needs to be signed by the French merchant receiving the catch and the St. Malo Customs. Thereafter, no further administrative action is required. This arrangement will be in place imminently.

1. Deputy S. Power:

That sounds very plausible but it is simply not what is happening. Can I ask the Assistant Minister that under E.U. Accession Treaty Rules Protocol 3, Jersey is entitled to free access to the E.U. markets for all agricultural and fishing products. This is not happening in St. Malo. Can the Assistant Minister explain why for over a year convention agreements are required in St. Malo when they are not required in Granville, Cherbourg, St. Brieuc or Roscoff?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

The Deputy is absolutely right. I agree. My interpretation is that under Protocol 3 of the Accession Treaty, Jersey is treated as if it were a member of E.U. for trade purposes. What we are dealing with here is an administrative procedural matter with the St. Malo Customs and probably worst of all their new computer system which is causing the difficulties. These difficulties as I say have now been resolved. The convention is in place and normal service should be resumed effectively almost immediately.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Is the Assistant Minister aware that Jersey importers from France do find that particular port totally standing outside the system in terms of how matters are handled? If so, what steps is he taking to ensure that there is smooth and speedy importation of goods through that?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

Obviously I am aware that there have been some difficulties, as I have just explained, over the last 12 months. Negotiations have been going on between the Economic Development Department, our office in Caen, many other agencies and, as I have just explained in my answer under supplementary, those difficulties should now be resolved and problems should no longer exist.

3. Deputy S. Power:

Would the Assistant Minister not agree with me that the Chambre de Commerce in St. Malo are in effect creating an embargo on Jersey fishing products in St. Malo, that this is absolutely discriminatory and it must stop immediately?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I have no evidence whatsoever of an embargo and indeed the St. Malo Chamber of Commerce is one of the parties involved in the negotiations of getting this difficulty resolved. Yes, it should be resolved immediately. As I say, the hard work of officers of the Economic Development Department and the Jersey Office in Caen those difficulties have been resolved.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern oftheChairmanofthe Comité des Connétable s regarding postal voting:

Is the chairman satisfied that at the last election for Deputies, postal ballots were free from any of the following offences: bribery, treating, undue influence, secrecy, impersonation, multiple voting and proxy voting, and that the traditional standards of propriety observed at polling stations were carried through to the postal voting context?

Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s):

I am not in a position to answer that question. The role of the Connétable s at election time is merely to facilitate at the taking of a poll. The postal ballot is entirely handled by the Judicial Greffier. Those postal ballots which are collected by him are handed to the returning officer prior to the election and the returning officer handles them throughout.

2.6.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the chairman aware that I asked a very similar question of the Attorney General last week and he said it was not his responsibility and he was not going to answer it? So who is responsible for the conduct and the propriety around postal voting in elections on the Island, do you know?

The Connétable of St. Ouen :

I do not. As far as I am concerned it is handled by the Judicial Greffier.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the discharge permit application for the "treated brackish water" from the excavation pit at la Collette:

Can the Minister assure the Assembly that D.P.(B) 2009/03/01 - the Discharge Permit application for the treated brackish water from the excavation pit for the incinerator at La Collette - will be treated on its merits and in accordance with the law and not be influenced by possible delays to the construction of the energy from waste plant?

Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

Deputy Le Hérissier has kindly agreed that the Assistant Minister with special responsibility for the environment may answer this question.

The Deputy of Trinity (Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment - rapporteur):

I can assure the good Deputy that the Discharge Permit application to which he refers will be treated on its own merits and, more importantly, in accordance with the law. Contractual delays are not a matter which will be taken into account. The application will be determined under the Water Pollution (Jersey) Law 2000 by my Environment Division officers in their regulatory capacity. Once they have considered all the pertinent environmental factors, they may refuse the application, award a Discharge Permit which could potentially have conditions attached restricting levels of chemical determents, expended solids or hydrocarbons. If a consent is granted, it is aimed to ensure that any discharge does not harm the receiving aquatic environments. It will not be driven by considerations relating to the construction of the energy from waste plant.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Assistant Minister outline the Chinese walls that are in place in the Planning and Environment Department to ensure that there is total independence and separation of decision- making in this instance.

The Deputy of Trinity :

In this instance it comes under the Water Pollution Law in the Environment Division which is separate to the Planning Department because it is one particular Law. By law, that Discharge Permit application has to be advertised in the Jersey Gazette which was done.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I have a question, Sir. It is quite succinct. But procedurally I am asking if it can be directed to the Minister rather than the Assistant Minister.

The Deputy Bailiff :

If the Minister seems to be happy, yes. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

As the Assistant Minister has no knowledge or is not willing to express knowledge of any oyster contamination at this stage, is the Minister aware of any oyster contamination and any block on sales of oysters in the Island at present? If so, what is the information behind that?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

I am not going to answer this question in the States publicly. What I will do is to circulate a confidential note to States Members later in the day. This is an ongoing sensitive matter and there are many issues that need to be considered that may relate to oysters and the sale of oysters.

3. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Would the Assistant Minister agree with me that the perception of an independent regulation for this process would be greatly enhanced if the regulator were to operate from a different set of buildings than is currently the place where we have Jersey civil servants it would appear both regulating and organising these matters?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The Environment Division operates out of Howard Davis Farm. It is a law under the Water Pollution (Jersey) Law and they have to abide by the law which the States have put in place. They have to abide by that and they have to go through due process as well as the applicant has to go through due process which at the moment they are going through.