States Meeting Transcript - 16/02/2011

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

WEDNESDAY, 16th FEBRUARY 2011

PUBLIC BUSINESS – RESUMPTION..........................................................6

1. Minister for Treasury and Resources: Request to Chief Minister to Lodge Proposition for Dismissal - Petition (P.16/2011).......................................................6

1. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:........................................................6
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:................................................7
3. Senator B.E. Shenton:....................................................................8
4. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................11
5. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................12
6. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John : ........................................................13
7. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:...................................................15
8. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................15
9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................15

10. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................17

2. Projet 195, Ratification of the Agreement for the Exchange of Information Relating to Tax Matters between the Government of Jersey and the Government of the Republic of Turkey................................................................................21

2.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................21

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................22
2. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................22
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................22
4. Senator T.A. La Sueur:.................................................................22

3. Projet 196, Ratification of the Agreement for the Exchange of Information Relating to Tax Matters between the Government of Jersey and the Government of the Republic of the United Mexican States............................................................23

3.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................23

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................24
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................24

3. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................24

4. Projet 197, Draft Companies (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Regulations...............24

1. Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................24

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................25
2. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................26
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................26
4. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................29

2. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................32

4.2.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................33

5. Projet 199, Draft Gambling (Remote Gambling Disaster Recovery) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 201-................................................................33

5.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................33

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................36
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................37
3. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................37
4. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................38
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................38
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................39
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................39
8. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................40

6. Medical Appeal Tribunal Appointment of Members (P.11/2011)......................43

6.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst (The Minister for Social Security):...................................44

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
2. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................44

7. Social Security Tribunal Appointment of Members (P.12/2011) ......................45

7.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst (The Minister for Social Security):...................................45

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................45
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................46
3. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................46

8. Jersey Employment Tribunal Appointment of Members (P.13/2011).................46

8.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst (The Minister for Social Security):...................................46

1. Deputy E.J. Noel: ......................................................................47
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................47
3. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................47
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................47
6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................47
7. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................47

9. Manual Workers' Joint Council Employer-side Membership (P.17/2011)............48

9.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................48

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................48
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48
3. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................49
4. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................49

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................50 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................50

10. Cold Weather Payments, Amendment to Income Support (P.4).......................51

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................51

2. Cold weather payments: amendment to income support (P.4/2011) – amendment (P.4/2011 Amd)..........................................................................54

1. Senator B.E. Shenton: ...............................................................55
2. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................55
3. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................55
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................56
5. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................56
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................56
7. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................56
8. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................56
9. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................57
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ............................................................57
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:........................................................58
12. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen : ....................................................58
13. The Deputy of St. Mary : ..........................................................59
14. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ............................................................59
15. Deputy I.J. Gorst :.................................................................59
16. Deputy J.A. Martin: ..............................................................60
17. Senator B.E. Shenton:............................................................60

3. Cold weather payments: amendment to income support – as amended (P.4/2011)....61

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................61
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................62
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................63
4. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:................................................63
5. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................65
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:..................................................66
7. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : .......................................................66
8. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................67
9. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................68

10. The Deputy of St. Mary : ..........................................................69
11. Connétable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour:.......................................70
12. Senator F.E. Cohen:..............................................................70
13. Senator B.E. Shenton:............................................................71
14. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ...............................................................71
15. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:............................................................71
16. Deputy I.J. Gorst :.................................................................72
17. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:............................................................76
18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ............................................................76
19. The Deputy of St. John:...........................................................78
20. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : .........................................79
21. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:......................................................79

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................82

11. Statement by the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding fiscal stimulus allocations................................................................................82

11 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................82

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................83
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................83
3. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................83
4. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................84
5. Senator B.E. Shenton: ...............................................................84
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................84
7. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:..................................................84
8. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................85
9. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................85

11.2 Statement by the Minister for Housing regarding appointment of Assistant Minister. 86

Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier (The Minister for Housing):..............................86

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................86
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................86
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................86
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................86
5. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................87
6. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................87
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................87

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................87

12. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................87

1. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................87
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................88
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................88
4. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................88
5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................89
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................89
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................89
8. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................89
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................90 12.10 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................91 12.11 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................91 12.12Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................91 12.13The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................91 12.14The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................92 12.15 Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................92

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................92

[09:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. PUBLIC BUSINESS – RESUMPTION

Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Out of courtesy to the Assembly, could I just advise Members that Deputy S. Pitman and I will have to leave at some point later this morning due to attending the funeral of Mr. Emile Collins.

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Can I do the same and could I also propose the closure motion on this debate. The Bailiff :

I understand, Deputy Tadier , that you have already spoken; therefore you cannot propose a closure motion. Very well. Before we resume the debate on that, can I just inform Members of 2 matters which have been tabled. The first one is comments by the Minister for Social Security on Projet 4. That is the amendment to Income Support: Cold Weather Payments and secondly, a fourth amendment to the North of Town Master Plan lodged by the Deputy of St. Mary.

Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier :

Sorry, Sir, before we proceed, I too will be going to Emile Collins' funeral. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

May I take this opportunity before we begin to inform Members I will be withdrawing P.18 of 2011, Oral Questions Without Notice. It is down for debate for 1st March.

1. Minister for Treasury and Resources: Request to Chief Minister to Lodge Proposition for Dismissal - Petition (P.16/2011)

The Bailiff :

Very well. So now we return to the debate on Projet 16. Deputy Jeune .

1. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

I have said in this Assembly before who would be the Minister for Treasury and Resources? Whether he likes it or not, he has a duty to bring to this Assembly measures and budgets necessary to ensure we provide essential services yet balance the books. We charged him to do that and when he brought his budget to us, we approved it. We did not have to do that but we did, we, in this Assembly, in this case, being the majority of Members and that is democracy. The Deputy could have brought a vote of no confidence and perhaps in his summing up he would be good enough to tell us why he did not do that. Senator Routier is not alone in having the public stopping him, being very distraught, being angry, feeling they were duped into signing something that they had not been fully informed of the small print. While I respect that Deputy Tadier said he made it very clear to those who he spoke to, they certainly were not those persons who have spoken to me. The proposer, in my opinion, is extremely misguided in his belief and the understanding of the power of the Minister for Treasury and Resources who he seems to think says "Jump" and everybody does because that is far from the truth. As far as I am concerned, the Minister for Treasury and Resources does listen. We do discuss matters but the reality is we will not always agree on everything. But in going full circle, it all comes back to this Assembly. We take the responsibility. When we came into this Assembly, we knew that it was highly likely that there were very difficult decisions to be made and I believe the Minister for Treasury and Resources and many of us will not be derailed in doing what we believe is in the best interests of the people of Jersey and Jersey's future. We only have to look to the U.K. (United Kingdom) and know they have major problems.

The rest of the world has major problems and we are no different. I have to say I have the advantage talking this morning inasmuch as I heard the radio and I heard a speaker on the Jersey BBC radio this morning making it very clear that what Jersey's Minister for Treasury and Resources and this Assembly are doing in Zero/Ten is definitely in the interests of this Island. I will not be supporting this matter.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

I heard the radio and the person saying it was in the best interests of the Island was of course Senator Ozouf himself. [Laughter] [Approbation] Admittedly, he was followed by a domestic chartered accountant by the name of a Mr. Murphy who obviously took a different view and maybe Deputy Jeune had tuned out at that point. I am not saying who I support but there were 2 very distinct views put forward. What I would like to say is I do think this is the wrong proposition, I am afraid. I do support Senator Le Gresley in that regard. If there was anybody who was going to be the target, it should have been the Council of Ministers. There is no doubt and I know it has been said to people: "Oh, yes, I did sign the wrong petition but now I realise it was about Senator Ozouf , I would like to sign 20 times." [Laughter] I have sort of picked up those comments but, in fact, it should have been a more general discussion about Council of Ministers' policy. Those of us who have been in politics probably for too long [Aside] [Laughter] have realised that the Jersey electorate - thank you for those kind words - have realised that the Jersey electorate holds some very paradoxical views. One of them is that they like a lot of their politics to be of the centre. They like their politics to be fairly conservative economically but with the people running the show to show a degree of compassion in the way they run the show. That basically is how they do not divide. I was very interested in Deputy Martin's analysis of left/right. They do not divide into that traditional left/right camp as easily as some of us think. What is concerning them is the fact that they think the Council of Ministers has lost touch with the electorate. Oddly enough and I have pursued this theme some time ago, it is the traditional voters who are feeling this in quite a considerable way and they really feel they do not like the way the Council of Ministers is working. I do not doubt if they were offered a referendum: "Do you support Deputy Southern 's economic policies or those of Senator Ozouf ?" it is quite clear which way they would vote. They would obviously support Senator Ozouf 's. That is the feedback I get from the electorate but they do not like the way that the Council of Ministers is operating. I will give you a case. I have to come back to this and I know the Minister for Health and Social Services will say: "Oh, no, not again" but we heard the salary for the future Director of the Hospital is £319,000 per annum if you pro rata it per annum. It is unbelievable. This is a hospital in a small society of 90,000 people run, I should add, by a very fine person; I have no doubt about that. But it is unbelievable how this high wage culture which was mentioned on the radio .. I tell Deputy Jeune , this morning, a gentleman called not Wilfred Pickles but Mr. Eric Pickles, the Minister for Local Government, went on and said any position over £200,000 in local government will now be subject to full approval by the Councillors

in that jurisdiction. [Aside] [09:45]

Oh, £100,000? £100,000, I thought it was £200,000, £100,000. He said there were I think about 15 positions over £200,000 and what he was saying is this whole culture of high wages at the top of local government has got totally out of control. [Approbation] We have been seduced by this and we are looking foolish, a jurisdiction of 90,000 people and we are paying people money that would run the finest teaching and biggest and complex teaching hospitals in the United Kingdom. In fact, it probably does not reach that. It is absolutely ridiculous and this is what people in society are complaining about. They are absolutely fed up and they cannot work out and I cannot work out and there are some figures in answer to my written question they cannot work out how the international office in Brussels has zoomed up to this unbelievable cost. The cost is obviously slightly neutered because we are sharing it with our fellow Island but if you still say it quickly, £800,000, it is unbelievable. Now there may be an office cat employed [Laughter] as there now is at 10 Downing

Street and here I pause for thought [Laughter] they may be taking up some of that expenditure because there is an awful lot that has not been explained. I do not know what an Ambassador to Bulgaria was earning before he became Assistant to our Foreign Minister. I do not know but it looks unbelievable and we have allowed this culture to take hold and the people out there are fuming. They fume when they see another announcement of cuts which, to be fair to the Minister for Health and Social Services, she has withdrawn in part, when they see another announcement of these pettifogging cuts to voluntary bodies, for example. They say: "How can you reconcile these 2 things that are happening in your organisation?" [Approbation] What I say to the Council of Ministers, yes, Senator Ozouf has been identified as having a particular style and unfortunately, rightly or wrongly, has been seen as having become entrenched in the Council of Ministers a Machiavellian style. There are Rasputin people on the fringes of that Council who are allegedly social friends I am told when I mentioned the Rasputin to one of them. He said he was a social friend and that I had got it totally wrong. There are these people involved and there is this feeling that decision-making has become concentrated to a very, very small inner circle of people [Approbation] and that they have lost touch with the wider feelings in society. As I said, a lot of it would be for the reinstitution of fairly small C conservative policies and conservative approaches to the way these policies are handled. Oddly enough, I had a fleeting thought that Deputy Southern might have been a good member of the Council of Ministers because he would have challenged them. [Approbation] He would have really put them to the wall and made them think about the direction in which they are going and to which they seem entirely oblivious and I really ask them, pull back. You are alienating the very people upon whose support oddly enough you depend. These people are very angry. They do not know which way to turn. I am afraid that, despite all the work and effort, they will not turn to the J.D.A. (Jersey Democratic Alliance) but they definitely want a different approach taken. They definitely want more compassion. They want more sense in the way we are handling policies and they want some of these immense contradictions, particularly this notion of a high wage culture, we are an independent nation and we will therefore finance and act as an independent nation culture, reined in. So I find I cannot vote for this because I do not think it is fair in that sense to blame Senator Ozouf although obviously there are enormous fears about what the new Council of Ministers is going to look like after the elections, and people feel they do not criticise the energy, the commitment, which is clearly there, what they criticise is the lack of checks and balances in the system. I was a great enthusiast and well still am for ministerial government but there is no doubt we are operating it without checks and balances. Those of us on scrutiny who still believe scrutiny has a role although it is becoming, it has to be said, more and more difficult to argue this, unfortunately that role has not come forward and it certainly cannot be the role of an opposition which is posing real problems. It is posing real problems and I ask the Council of Ministers to step back and look at how you are acting because people are getting

alienated. Your traditional supporters are alienated. They are fed up with the The Bailiff :

Deputy , through the Chair.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Yes, Sir, I ask you to ask them or I ask you. [Laughter] [Aside] I ask the Chair to kindly pass on my sentiments. So I say I cannot quite repeat that famous House of Commons comment I think before the war: "Go and do not return" or words to that effect but I do think the Deputy of St. Mary raised that very good point. There are major issues about policy, let there be no doubt about it, but it is the way that the Council of Ministers have lost touch with people which is the real issue and which, in a sense, should be the subject for debate.

3. Senator B.E. Shenton:

Before I start my speech, I would just like to comment on the speech of Deputy Le Hérissier. It was the speech of someone who does not seem to realise that he is in the Chamber. He is a politician. It is his job to make sure things do not go wrong and it is his job to push things. It is his job if he is not happy with the salaries at Health to do something about it. Do not make a speech as if you are not in the Chamber, and if you are in the Chamber take some responsibility for what you have been elected to do. [Approbation] It is very easy to sit on the fence and criticise. How about rolling your sleeves up and doing something about it? [Members: Oh!] [Aside]

The Bailiff :

Through the Chair, please, Senator, through the Chair. Senator B.E. Shenton:

I am speaking on this proposition out of courtesy to those that signed the petition that knew what they were signing. There are, as far as I can see, 2 issues here. One relates to the economic situation that the Island finds itself in and the other relates to the frustrations of the less leaning Members of this Chamber who fail to realise that their own political impotence is largely of their own doing. In respect of the economy, Jersey is entering a new paradigm, a new phase in its existence, in the investing world, a totally new way of doing things that will have a huge effect on business. The ramification of this change is that the golden days of the finance industry subsidising every aspect of society, the days when we were so awash with funds that tax and benefit fall took low priorities, the days of the light touch examination are well and truly over. If we want to keep States spending around current levels, personal taxation will need to pick up the shortfall. There will be a fine tightrope which we will have to walk in order to award the entrepreneurs and the hardworking while protecting those that are in genuine need. There will be no room for excess baggage and those that seek to play the system will have to deal with the ramifications that we will have to put in place. We cannot support those that make a lifestyle choice to live off the State. The line: "You do not know what you have until it is gone" may have some resonance over the coming years. Aspects of the income support system are extremely generous. Indeed, without the strong tax flows from the finance industry over decades, the social welfare provision would be much lower on this Island. Over the past 30 years, the Island has made great strides in social welfare. The J.D.A. associates should acknowledge this fact rather than continually running down an Island that I am very proud of. Margaret Thatcher was famously quoted as saying that: "Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money" and there is much truth in that. The principles of looking after the less fortunate, providing support and opportunity and trying to make Jersey a more inclusive society are prevalent in the Council of Ministers, despite what opponents may think. However, this must all be funded. There has been much talk about Zero/Ten yet few outside the finance industry really understand what it is. The old tax system, the one that brought the Island such prosperity to the extent that we had money coming out of our ears, has been judged to be unfair or, to put it another way, illegal, the reason being that we had 2 tax rates, 20 per cent for the locals and zero per cent for overseas companies. The zero per cent for overseas companies attracted them to the Island and built up our finance industry while the 20 per cent local rate helped keep our coffers full. So it was ruled that the rate for both local and overseas companies had to be the same. This caused a dilemma. Charge everyone 20 per cent and say goodbye to the finance industry or charge with a few considered exceptions zero per cent. If we took the road suggested by the J.D.A. of taxing everything, we would lose the finance industry, face massive unemployment, severe cuts to all social benefits, rising income tax and rising G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax). I sat with Danny Blanchflower, who is often quoted by Deputy Southern , at a seminar and I found most of his arguments severely flawed. By taking the latter route, the Zero/Ten route, we protect our prosperity and if we can identify a method to force overseas companies trading in Jersey to pay more, which may be possible, we have a near perfect solution. So who should we be having the vote of no confidence in? Senator Ozouf , on his road to prosperity, or Deputy Southern on his road to bankruptcy? As Winston Churchill said: "There are 2 places only where socialism will work: in heaven where it is not needed and in hell where they already have it." Turning to the second aspect of my speech concerning the frustrations of the left, may I offer them some friendly advice. Cut out the vitriol; knock the chips off your shoulders and start working with your elected colleagues to build a better Island.

The Bailiff :

Through the Chair, please, Senator. We cannot have personal remarks addressed to other Members, please, Senator. [Aside] Deputy Pitman, we cannot have personal remarks addressed to other Members. I just said that and you have just made a personal remark addressed to another Member.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I am sorry, Sir, I do apologise. The Bailiff :

I have just ticked off Senator Shenton for doing it. I do not expect another Member to immediately disobey a ruling of the Chair so please stick by rulings of the Chair, Deputy . [Approbation] Now can we please keep tempers calm? This is a debate about policy and should be confined to that.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I voted for Deputy Green to be Minister for Housing. Yes, I believe that Deputy Southern made a much more compelling and researched speech and I did not vote against him because he is Deputy Southern or because he is a member of the J.D.A. I voted against him because I did not believe he could work with the Council of Ministers. I did not believe that he would treat them with respect.

The Bailiff :

Senator, I am sorry, this surely is rather drifting off the subject. This is, at the moment, a proposition as to whether the Chief Minister should dismiss Senator Ozouf , not whether he should dismiss

Senator B.E. Shenton:

It is the reason the proposition has been brought. The Bailiff :

Well, please make sure that what you say is relevant to the proposition as opposed to a criticism of other Members.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

Okay; and I do not believe that he would get that respect back from the Council of Ministers. I could also not put my faith in someone that brings votes of no confidence at the drop of a hat. Yesterday Deputy Pitman asked to be considered as Assistant Minister and yes, he probably would have  much to contribute should he be chosen  as Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. Yet how could the Executive work with someone who  makes vicious personal and political attacks at every opportunity? [Aside]

The Bailiff :

Well, Deputy Pitman, you had made an attack when I particularly said that it could not be done so nevertheless, can we please not attack other Members.

[10:00]

Senator B.E. Shenton:

There is, within this Chamber, I believe, an "us and them" mentality which I largely, to some extent, blame Senator Ozouf for but I do believe that it is time that this came to an end. If this did come to an end, then we would not have these votes of no confidence and the Assembly would encompass a wider range of political views. I believe that this proposition has been brought about because of the frustrations of some Members of the Assembly and I believe it is time for those outside and inside the Executive to take a long look at the way we all try and achieve our aims. If we do not, then our voices will never be heard and Members within this community will never fully be able to utilise their talents or achieve what they wish. I have no doubt that Deputy Southern knows that this proposition will be heavily defeated and when it is heavily defeated, I believe he should ask himself what he has achieved, what influence he has failed to bring on policy because of his constant criticisms, the bright ideas that may have been ignored because of his constant attacks and ask himself what his style of politics is achieving. If he wants to be listened to, then Deputy Southern has to start talking and listening to politicians like Senator Ozouf and if Senator Ozouf wants to be Chief Minister, he needs to start talking  and listening to politicians like Deputy Southern .

4. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

The previous speaker, Senator Shenton, made some good points. He made a number that I did not agree with and, in fact, it goes to the heart of this particular proposition, the personal nature of the proposition in question. I was disappointed when Senator Shenton, for example, said of Deputy Le Hérissier it is easy to criticise. If ever I have heard a kettle and black [Approbation] springing to mind [Laughter] then that would perhaps be it. I thought that was very disingenuous to Deputy Le Hérissier. [Laughter] I am merely observing and using as an example some criticism that is going on within this Assembly, which I do not support. I also noted earlier on Deputy Le Hérissier himself was referring to some radio commentary in relation to, I think, comments that Deputy Jeune had made and, just briefly to comment, I also heard the exchange this morning. There was one U.K. accountant who has a particular beef against Jersey giving his view on our business tax position in Zero/Ten. There was a local accountant very supportive. Jersey Finance is very supportive. The industry is very supportive and Members will not be surprised that I know the majority support this, that the policy taken on Zero/Ten is absolutely right for Jersey, and I was pleased to hear Senator Shenton also supporting that position. It brings to mind, certainly for me, I was in the U.K. last week at an event British-Israeli Chamber of Commerce event. I also had a meeting with the Financial Times and it very much brought to my mind the fact that there is a small minority of people within the Island who are continuously criticising the Island and what is occurring here. Yet, from an external point of view, the viewpoint is entirely different. The view from business people, from large sections of the media in the U.K., is that there is a great deal of admiration for Jersey and the way in which we conduct our affairs [Approbation] and I think we can all be proud of that. That does not mean that there are no problems locally, of course there are problems that this Assembly clearly has to deal with. Deputy Le Hérissier referred in particular to some disquiet among the public, what he called sort of "Middle Jersey" I think he was probably referring to. They do not like the way in which the Council of Ministers is operating. I am not sure whether it is the case that they do not like the way the Council of Ministers is operating or that they do not like what they read or hear in the media. I say that because there is a disconnect often between what is happening, the reality, and the way in which at times it is reported. Now I have to say it is not only the media that should be blamed for that. It is. We need to communicate better and I think we need to communicate better both internally with Members of this Assembly and I think we need to communicate a lot better with the public because fundamentally there is an awful lot of good decision-making going on, both with the Council of Ministers and, of course, with this Assembly where ultimately the final decisions are made. Returning, as I am sure you will be keen to hear me do, directly to the proposition, I do struggle to understand the purpose of this proposition. It does strike me as being nothing more than a personal attack on a particular individual. It is what I consider to be destructive and unnecessary and the way in which it was undertaken with unsavoury posters in the middle of St. Helier and other comments, I do not think there is a place for that personally in Jersey politics. If the issue is about G.S.T., if the issue is about policies, then I fail to see why this proposition has been targeted at solely Senator Ozouf . It is, as other Members have already said, a matter that the Council of Ministers have had to deal

with. The Council of Ministers considers proposals brought forward by the Minister for Treasury and Resources for the budget, for example, for the Business Plan, and there is and I can assure Members of this, robust debate among members of the Council of Ministers. There is no question that it is just a unanimous decision on a number of issues. I am seeing one Minister nodding now and smiling ruefully because he and others have challenged decisions that have been proposed and put forward as part of the Business Plan. Senator Ozouf has to fight his corner but at the end of the day, it is a collective decision, not necessarily a majority decision, but a collective decision and that is exactly as it should be. After all, once that process is concluded, this Assembly then debate and either support or reject a Business Plan or a budget. The Business Plan and the budget have been through this Assembly and have been supported after a great deal of debate and so quite frankly it gives little purpose and point to this rather disjointed proposition. In fact, the proposition is curious. It refers in some parts that the Council of Ministers has taken a number of actions. In other parts it refers to "his" policy in terms of Senator Ozouf . Indeed the petition itself refers to the Council of Ministers. It does not refer to Senator Ozouf . It is entirely confusing when you read it and clearly the public who signed it, or certainly a number of them, I would suggest, have been misled by the way in which it was presented to them. Senator Ozouf - and I was delighted and pleased to hear that other Members have made these comments - has been recognised for exactly what he is. He is hardworking, dedicated and widely respected for the energy he puts into his role. The way I would summarise quite simply the considerable contribution that the Senator has made to politics in the Island is that at the centre of what he does is his complete and utter dedication to get policies and decisions right for the Island of Jersey, for this Island, and I believe that he has at heart everybody's consideration wherever they sit within the Island. It is not a question of just supporting or favouring one section of the community above and beyond the other. The world, as Members will know, has changed considerably since 2008 when obviously there were major banks failing, banks threatening to fail, countries close to collapse, financial systems threatened and it is curious as part of this proposition that Senator Ozouf is criticised although I understand the rationale behind it. It is an easy criticism that he changed his mind. He changed his mind with regard to an aspect of G.S.T. and frankly I was not surprised because of the significant changes that have occurred since then. It is, after all, a thinking man who reacts to the circumstances that are occurring and unfolding and the circumstances we have seen in the world in the last 2 years alone, more disruption and change than we have seen probably in more than a generation and it is right to react to those changes and to deal with the very difficult challenges that the Island has had to face and will continue to face as we move forward: the need to balance our budgets, the need to cut our costs, the need to ensure that revenue streams are where possible protected and we look at opportunities for economic growth to help fill our fiscal deficit. All of these issues are difficult issues and some of the solutions, as Members know, and members of the public will be aware, are not easy solutions. They are very difficult solutions and they are unpopular solutions in areas, certainly in the short term. But longer term, I have absolutely no doubt that these difficult decisions that have had to be made will lay a strong foundation for the future prosperity of this Island and I think it is important that we focus on the long-term and not the short-term. In the short-term it is very easy to make populist decisions and other neighbouring jurisdictions have perhaps made such populist or easy decisions. We have taken the more difficult road but the long-term road that will lead to long-term prosperity for the Island. I would urge Members to reject this proposition. I really do not see there is going to be a lot of support. I think Members recognise that this is a personal attack on one particular Member. I think it is unjustified, it is unfair. If there is going to be an attack on policy, it should be the policy of the Council of Ministers and, indeed, the decisions

that have been taken by the wider States and this Assembly.

5. Senator J.L. Perchard:

After the 2 previous contributions, there is not a lot more to say but I just want to say a little something about petitions. I saw the well-wrapped up people collecting signatures in King Street yelling like barrow boys for signatures. They reminded me of walking through the West End and

seeing Cockney lads selling onions, 2 for £1 or 5 for £10 or whatever. It was a sales pitch and it was very attractive. I stopped to talk. I just wonder about the value of petition. If I asked Members this morning would it be nice next Christmas morning to wake up with a blanket of snow covering Jersey, I think most of us would subscribe to that. Perhaps the Minister for T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) would not. Should we have a roast dinner on Sunday? Would you prefer it hot or cold? There are some obvious answers to certain questions. Would you like your government to reduce public spending? I think most people would say yes. Would you like G.S.T. to go up or do you want G.S.T. to go up? I think it is a pretty safe bet most people would say no. The answers to these questions, particularly the questions about tax and spend, are very complex and I think it is unfair to expect the people of Jersey to make an informed decision without knowing the facts. Senator Shenton and Senator Maclean previously touched on the very important issues of Jersey's competitiveness in what is an international finance sector. Recently we entertained officials and the Premier of the Cayman Islands. Members may not know this but in the Cayman Islands, there is a zero rate of corporate tax. There is a zero rate of income tax and there is a zero rate of G.S.T. and V.A.T. (Value Added Tax). They have a 22 per cent levy on all products. Now we are competing with jurisdictions like this and if the intention is to load our corporates or individual higher earners, they will simply leave these shores and go to shores where they can operate and trade more efficiently. Jersey has to offer a competitive environment for our business sector. Our business sector maintains the lifestyle which we have come to enjoy. We have a wonderful health system, a very good educational system. We have a wonderful safety net for those less privileged among us and, quite frankly, this is not a bad place to live. I am fairly well travelled and I am always pleased to come home to this wonderful Island. I think it is very difficult to govern by petition. It is without those signatories on the petition being party to the full information and understanding the consequences of their signature, and I do feel we must take petitions as an indication of public feeling but not necessarily as an instruction. A petition is not a

referendum.

[10:15]

6. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

I follow on from the previous speaker re petitions. This petition in particular having named a specific Member I think is out of order, totally out of order.

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Sir, it does not name. It labels the Minister for Treasury and Resources. The Deputy of St. John :

I am not giving way. I am not giving way, Deputy . Having identified the Minister for Treasury and Resources in the way it has been done I think is totally wrong. The Council of Ministers and their Business Plan, and I hope the Chief Minister and the Council are listening, should in future be delayed, not brought to this Assembly so it can be debated and amendments brought. The Council of Ministers should stand or fall by their Business Plan. That way then you could have a petition that we could debate and, at the end of the day, we could say: "Yes, the Council have made a mistake here. They should fall by it." But it is our Business Plan because we are allowed to bring amendments and within those amendments we are monkeying, for want of a better word, or stirring the pot and making it, in a lot of cases, unworkable for the Council of Ministers. I am not a big supporter of the current system because you have got too much power in too few hands and the Council themselves do not help themselves by not trying to be more open with the full 53 Members and, in fact, with the public. Middle Jersey are the people who are now suffering the most and that has been mentioned by 2 or 3 other speakers over the last few hours. We have seen things happen like we have had an Assistant Foreign Minister appointed and we see him being very high profile in a number of areas. We even see a new flagpole in his garden carrying the Union flag. Well, if he is our Foreign Minister, should he not have the local flag alongside the Union flag?

The Bailiff :

I think that is addressing personal The Deputy of St. John :

I am not giving way, Minister. Senator F.E. Cohen:

I was hoping that the Deputy of St. John might offer a new flag for me. He indicated that yesterday, thank you. [Laughter] [Aside]

The Deputy of St. John :

Yes, if the Minister has a problem. I did advise him yesterday evening where he could purchase a flag. [Laughter] [Aside] But whether he has bothered to just walk up New Street to see whether he could purchase one or not I do not know. He has probably arrived too late this morning to go there. But getting back to the Council of Ministers. The Council of Ministers have brought a lot of this upon themselves by not being open. To have 9,000-odd signatures re G.S.T. .. but I would suspect a lot of the people who signed did not read in its entirety what they were signing and if, as has been described by Senator Perchard, the Members who were getting people to sign the petition, were acting like barrow boys and consequently people would go across and nobody wants to pay more G.S.T. than they have to, consequently people would sign. They would not necessarily look at the entire document they are signing because they all see a lot of other names: "Oh, I will sign that" and they go ahead. But it is middle Jersey who do not understand what is happening within our government because we get these press releases given by the press corps within the Chief Minister's Department. It is pre-prepared where historically you would see a President of the day being interviewed and it would come out naturally and other Members would be fully au fait on what was going on and that does not happen any longer. We get these press releases. We had one yesterday from the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture on a question that I asked him an hour earlier and so that is obviously all pre-prepared. I hope this is a wake-up call to the Chief Minister and his fellow Ministers that they have to be far more open with the people of Jersey, far more open. They have to be far more open with the Scrutiny Panels they visit. It is all well and good for the Ministers who come in front of me and say: "Yes, you can have all the information." Then you find out that the Minister himself has not been, in some cases, fully informed by his officers or the information that the Minister has got is being held up because it is the A.G.'s (Attorney General) office or some other office and therefore they cannot give us the information and we cannot get on with our business. It is not only the Ministers and their various ministries that have got to make this Island operate. The remainder of us in our various spheres, like in my case in scrutiny and as a Chairman, we have things that have to happen within a certain period of time. It is all well and good us putting our reports out but if we cannot put our follow-up reports out because we have not had information back from the Council because things are being held up in another department, in the Legal Department or wherever, these are the things which the Chief Minister's Department need to get their heads around. We could all benefit by a rethink. I sincerely hope we do before the end of the term of this particular government. Look at bringing an outside body in to look at the

government because it is not working. It is not working as it should. But I get somewhat frustrated when I see former Senators and the like and Deputies making comments about the way the Assembly is run at the moment, given they were around and brought to this Chamber Clothier, as it was, and I will mention the name of the former Senator Horsfall who brought Clothier to this Chamber. I can recall asking that particular Senator when we debated Clothier to put the meat on the bones. He said: "No, accept it in principle and we will put the meat on the bones later." That never happened because that particular Senator left office at the end of that particular term and left us with what we have today. If there is a fault anywhere about what we have, I do not want to be dictated to by former Senators who did not do the job that they were supposed to do and they have left it to the current membership to sort it out. I think these people should step aside and look from

the sidelines and see if they came back into the Assembly and see if they could do anything better. Yes, we have to do something and I think we have to bring an outside body in to instruct us how this is to be done because 10 years after Clothier, I think things have moved on plus we are in the middle of the biggest recession since the Second World War. As a point as far as government is concerned, as far as I am concerned, I would be happy to open up this Island to a 10 or 15 per cent tax. We would have money coming in from everywhere. This Island would benefit, not go the way the proposer would like to go, put taxes up to 25 or 30 per cent. We would have people willing to move to this Island to pay tax in large numbers. There are different ways of looking at how we can collect our tax and we can bring a lot more tax in by dropping our tax to 10 or 15 per cent. We will have a lot of people wishing to invest in Jersey or through Jersey. That is a way of filling our black hole, not go down the route the proposer wishes in the way he has been speaking and the like and pushing taxes up. I would prefer to see us bring them down so we bring the investment in from outside and make Jersey what it has been in the past and hopefully will be in the future, a really successful place. A lot of our problem is lack of communication and we have had too much dictatorship in the last 4 or 5 years. That has to change, Chief Minister. I am not supporting this proposition but I have to say what I have said because I believe the Ministers themselves and all of us, whatever position we are in in this Chamber, need to work as a team but we expect you to be far more open with us. How can we help make things happen if we are not kept within the loop?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

Point of information. As the Deputy has a particular interest in my flagpole, I would like to extend an invitation to him to raise the Jersey flag on my flagpole this weekend for the first time. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. John :

I would be delighted to do it but I cannot do it this weekend. I will be off Island. [Members: Oh!]

7. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John :

I am not sure how many more people are wanting to speak but I would like to invoke the closure motion, Sir.

The Bailiff :

At the moment, I simply have 2 more. So do you wish to propose the closure motion? Has the Constable of St. John spoken? Yes, you have to give 30 minutes' notice though so they all get a chance to

The Connétable of St. John :

Yes, that is what I meant, sorry.

The Bailiff :

Very well. Deputy Fox.

8. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

I was going to propose the closure motion. I think everything has been said and I shall not be voting for this proposition.

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

I personally wish that this was a motion of no confidence in the Council of Ministers rather than just the Minister for Treasury and Resources. Why? Because in my view, the Council of Ministers lacks vision. What have they done to inspire or to improve the life or situation of the people of Jersey? I personally can think of nothing over the last 3 years. They also appear to lack sympathy for, or have any empathy with, the ordinary men and women of this Island who are struggling through these difficult economic times. They are responsible, through their policies, for widening

the divisions in this Island between the rich and the poor. The inequality gap, I think, is getting wider. The divisions between the young and the old; those who own their own homes and those who do not; those who are in employment and those who do not have jobs; and those who see their future in the Island and those who cannot see a future for them or their children in the Island and they are leaving. But to use an expression which is often used in this Assembly and one I personally dislike, we are where we are and as the Minister for Treasury and Resources is - as the Deputy of St. John often quips in this Assembly - the "real Chief Minister", the man behind the throne, the man who orchestrates the Council of Ministers' policies and like Machiavelli works behind the scenes to persuade or cajole Members of this Assembly, I will concentrate on this one Minister. I, like many others, recognise his tremendous energy and acknowledge that he is constantly rushing from one thing to another. In fact, the Minister for Treasury and Resources is like a whirlwind. Unfortunately, like a whirlwind, he is not directed and focused and leaves a chain of destruction behind him no matter which direction he has been travelling. For example, while he has been in this Assembly in the various roles that he has had, he approved the award-winning carbuncle on the Waterfront, the Radisson. He was responsible for reducing maintenance spending in the departments in which he was a Committee President or Minister which has resulted in us having to use economic stimulus money to deal with some of the serious and expensive messes he left behind. I find his contribution to industrial relations in the Island appalling. I disagree with his gung ho and macho approach to industrial relations and collective bargaining in which he has not only destroyed the goodwill that existed in the public sector but he is also in danger of driving States workers into work to rule and to strikes. His negotiating style is to get everybody's hackles up right from the very start with the result that he even unites groups who were not united before they went into the negotiations. I disagree and dislike his use of spin and the use of smoke and mirrors including the current spin on Zero/Ten. But my main criticism and concern is over the way I believe he may implement economic policy in the months ahead. Now he has pushed through economic policies which, yes, while they have the approval of the majority of the Members of this Assembly, could cause greater problems for the Island than we have at the present time. We are moving from a situation where we have agreed economic stimulus of £44 million to try and keep people in work and to keep the economy going, following that with £65 million of cuts on the public sector which is going to lead to loss of staff and also loss of work for the private sector because obviously the public sector employees and an awful lot of companies in this Island provide

goods and services for the people of this Island. [10:30]

So not only will public sector jobs be lost if these cuts are implemented too quickly or too sharply, so will private sector jobs. Now my main concern is that at the present time we have no knowledge of the state of the Jersey economy. We know we are in recession. We have seen no indicators to indicate that we are coming out of recession. The usual economic response to recession is to stimulate the economy, to keep money in to try and keep the level of demand up because the level of demand determines the employment in the Island. But we are now moving to the phase of cuts. We have started already public sector cuts. We have identified people for redundancy. Those people, when they come out of the public sector, are not going to find it easy to find private sector jobs because it is unlikely the private sector will be generating many jobs because of the level of demand in the economy. Now the Jersey economy is an open one. It really depends on providing service to the rest of the world. We are seeing local demand depressed but we are also seeing global demand depressed. If we look at the world recovery, it is very patchy. In Europe and the United States, they are just about out of recession and starting to move forward. In the Far East,

China and India did not suffer as much as the rest of the world because they were not as reliant on the banking system as Europe and the United States. But the Jersey economy is a mono-economy. It is based on finance and we know that banking is depressed because people have not been placing their deposits here partly because the banks are not offering high interest rates because they know they cannot place that money elsewhere to earn a return themselves. So we are finding that banking is somewhat reduced. So my concern with the policy of the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Council of Ministers is, yes, if they take heed, do not rush into it and take a measured sort of approach, then we may not cause further problems. But my big fear is that the energy of the Minister for Treasury and Resources is such that he races into things, not always thinking before he does so and can cause tremendous damage. My concern is that these cuts will be imposed on the Island at a time when they will add to the recession rather than bring us out of it. Now as I have said from the start, I would have preferred it to have been a proposition motion of no confidence in the Council of Ministers because I believe collectively they have blame. There are some members of the Council of Ministers I have respect for. The inner cabal I have no respect for. They are the ones who are running this Island. All you have to do is speak to Members of the Council of Ministers who tell you they did not even know about some of the decisions that were being taken, for example, the appointment of the new Foreign Minister. They were not aware, for example, of different people being offered positions. So there is even secrecy within the Council of Ministers. It is not just the Members of this part of the Assembly who have no idea what they are doing; they do not even know themselves in many cases. So what I would say is I believe I will probably support the proposition, not that it is a vote necessarily against Senator Ozouf because I am taking it as a proxy vote against the Council of Ministers as a whole.

The Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak? Very well, I call upon Deputy Southern to reply.

10. Deputy G.P. Southern :

As a start, may I state clearly that the vast majority of the 10,413 people who signed this petition knew exactly what they were signing and the atmosphere in which they were signing it was by and large, the most common thing I heard from people coming up to sign was: "Thank you for doing this. Somebody has to keep up the fight." Thank you for doing this because people out there are disillusioned and angry and disappointed and feel that they cannot influence the Minister for Treasury and Resources. They cannot influence the Council of Ministers in the system that we have. So when I am accused of being undemocratic by bringing this particular proposition, having in several ways to divert this Minister for Treasury and Resources from his clear political aims, I am accused of being undemocratic. There was a strange speech from Senator Le Gresley yesterday where he said how can a party bring a petition as it is undemocratic in some way. No, a party can listen to its members, can listen to members of the public and respond appropriately and many people ask me: "Why have you not brought a motion of no confidence? That is the way forward." Well, the fact is yes, I could have brought a motion of no confidence in the Council of Ministers. I believe at the heart of that Council of Ministers is a particular driving force, a particular dynamo and we all admire him for his energy. But there is also a political philosophy that he has which is driving this Council of Ministers and that is where I believe the majority of the problem is in order to represent the people out there who feel that they cannot have an influence in that, hence the petition. Hence the petition directed in this peculiar way because it is the way we are set up. If I do not bring a motion of no confidence in the entire Council of Ministers I await with bated breath such a  motion  from Deputy Le Hérissier  or   Deputy Le Claire  who  was also  suggesting that yesterday and was saying it was unsatisfactory because it was not quite the right proposition. This is the proposition we have. In this peculiar way because of the way we are set up, it requests the Chief Minister who appointed, and who is the only person who can appoint and dismiss, the Minister for Treasury and Resources to do just that, to dismiss the Minister for Treasury and Resources. But the focus should be, quite rightly, on the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the decisions in particular that he makes and the promises that he has made. I would argue to Senator Routier who suggested I did not have a real view of life. I suggest that, on the contrary, I do have a real view of life. I am in greater contact with the ordinary public, the ordinary working man and woman on the Island than he is and this is a reflection of the real view of life. The reflection of the real view of life is that people are angry and disappointed and disillusioned and

they are angry because they see G.S.T. going up at a time when their wages are frozen or even reduced. They see G.S.T. go on essentials of life like food and heating. They see prices going up inevitably, commodities going up, food particularly up, up, up. Budget spending, income static or down. They see us offering zero per cent to companies on the High Street, Boots, Norman's, you can all name them, trading for free in the Island while little Jersey suffers 20 means 20 and they have seen their tax bills go up. They have seen their tax bills go up while this Minister for Treasury and Resources brings down the tax rate on 1(1)(k)s and that makes them very angry. There was no difficulty in achieving those 10,400 signatures at all. People were queuing to sign up in some very, very nasty weather. That is the reality out there. That is what the real worldview among Jersey residents is and anyone who pretends otherwise is fooling themselves. Deputy Le Claire yesterday made a very good speech in the middle when he stopped quoting the expert and spoke from the heart and he was quite right to do so and he was quite accurate when he talked about creating a fairer society. Let us not forget however reluctantly this Council of Ministers signed up for creating a more equal society as part of our strategic aims. Ask yourself if the actions that we have seen in terms of cuts, in terms of tax rises, in terms of G.S.T., in terms of Zero/Ten, in terms of not taxing local-based companies, are we moving towards that fairer society? No, absolutely not. We are moving very rapidly in the other direction. The document that came out saying we had met lots of our strategic targets was completely silent on that one. Why? Because we are singularly failing to improve equality in this Island at the moment. I would argue the chief cause of that is the economic policies and fiscal policies pursued and driven through by this Minister for Treasury and Resources which brings me to Senator Le Main's speech yesterday. What can I say? Perhaps that is enough. A man who cannot speak 3 words without using unparliamentary language. Deputy Noel and Deputy Tadier have both pointed to the facts around the economic situation and said: "Well, the facts have changed." Deputy Noel used it to excuse the change of mind by the Minister for Treasury and Resources from December 2008 to now when he is putting up tax although he assured us, he gave us a categorical assurance, that that would not happen. But what facts have changed? The essential facts in terms of our economic and fiscal policy is is there one single piece of evidence that we are yet even coming out of recession? The Deputy of St. John said and he corrected himself when he said we are in the middle of a recession. That is key. Austerity and cuts and tax rises in the middle of recession, as we have seen, been warned about in the U.K., is the wrong direction to take. So no evidence that it is safe yet to pursue the policies that are being pursued. Deputy Martin said yesterday the debate was of a fairly low standard but then she gave a gem of a speech and lifted the whole thing and I would just like to say any time she wants to give that speech about a proposition of mine, she is welcome to do it again. [Laughter] But the core of the debate where it has been good I think time and time again, and he is going to be very embarrassed, and I am going to do it again, time and time again, I feel as if I am learning when I listen to the Deputy of St. Mary. Sometimes I wish that he had brought the proposition and given

the prime speech and if I can find my notes on him, I will continue to embarrass him. There it is. This is a man with a moral streak about that wide running right through his core and he talked about style, the style in which this Minister for Treasury and Resources does things. He mentioned the categorical assurance and he used a word that I did not use. He talked about whether information, whether decisions that were made and the information was presented honestly. As he did so, I realised that is the core of this proposition. Is it done honestly? He pointed out that, for example, the Minister for Treasury and Resources appears to be able to hold 2 completely contradictory beliefs at the same time and he said: "Can he honestly believe those 2 things at the same time?" Can he say, for example, we are pleased at the decision of the E.U. (European Union) on business tax? Pleased? Hardly, and it confirmed our expectations. Our expectation must have been then, he pointed out, that we were going to fail with the distribution and be declared a harmful tax regime and yet that is not what we were told. We were told that it was of course perfectly okay, it is a matter of personal taxation and therefore outside the remit and there was no problem. When it became increasingly clear there would be a problem, what did we get? "Oh, it is only a minor

problem. We can soon sort it." Hang on. We have chased this goal for 5 years. If it is so unimportant, why have we stuck out for 5 years? Where is the reality? Where honestly is the reality? And now we are being told

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I was not in the Chair when the Deputy of St. Mary was speaking yesterday, so I do not know. You are not allowed to question the honesty of another Member. You are allowed to question the accuracy of what was said of course and whether people have changed what they have said about matters. Those points you are making are perfectly correct but you are not allowed to suggest that another Member has been dishonest. That is quite clear.

[10:45]

Deputy G.P. Southern :

In which case, Sir, we are either faced with the prospect that the Minister for Treasury and Resources does not believe these 2 mutually exclusive positions in which case - and I say this hypothetically because I am going to present the alternative - the suspicion must be that he is not being honest when he presents it; or he genuinely believes 2 mutually exclusive things and he presents it honestly and it is completely false. It does not bear a great connection with reality. Now I am told I cannot say one but I can suggest that the alternative is the other and that is where we are. So where do we go now under the leadership of this Minister for Treasury and Resources when, hand in hand with his Chief Minister, he says that now we have not got deemed distribution on Zero/Ten, which was their decision to go to Zero/Ten. We have not got that but it is not a problem. It is a cash flow problem. It is £10 million we will get back sooner or later. As I hear it, I am thinking no. The rate of tax on all companies other than finance and the utilities in Jersey is zero. There are lots of ways of doing it but one particularly would be roll-up. Roll up your profits, roll up your dividends in the company and sell it on. We do not have capital gains tax. At the end of the profits in the company, roll up the profits and the company. Thank you for correcting me, Minister for Social Security, you know more about it than I do because you are an accountant and you are used to handling these concepts. You are an honest accountant. [Aside]

The Bailiff :

Through the Chair, please, Deputy , you know the rule. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Thank you, Sir.

The Bailiff :

Do not address another Member directly.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I got carried away a little, sorry, Sir. We do not have capital gains tax so that is one way that we can see a big hole, a further hole, in our coffers because what we decided is the rate of tax is zero on all non-finance companies in Jersey, whether they are locally owned or not. Whatever we do to chase that from local ownership, if we do and we succeed in it, it is highly likely that yet again we will be breaking the E.U. code on business tax by ring-fencing the foreign owners and giving them a privilege. That is the reality. We are at a hard place and it is no good pretending that this is not a problem. It is. Either one or the other. Either we have got a big hole in our tax revenues and we have got a big problem or if we manage to try and scrape back and fill in that hole with some extra revenue, we have got a problem again because we come bang up against E.U. code on business taxation and ring-fencing. So we are in a serious problem. What do we believe? We believe somebody who can say: "We are in a fantastic position [meaning a fantastically good position] compared to most other economies. Therefore I am going to drastically cut spending." The 2 do not match. We are either better off than everybody else and we do not need to cut or we are not and we are cutting. Or: "I am not afraid to make bold moves to cut spending and keep Jersey working." Again, a new dichotomy. Cut spending, remove jobs and at the same time keep Jersey working. It does not ring true. Either one or the other but not both and this is the Minister for Treasury and Resources that we are supposed to have faith in. Yesterday, again just to remind us, for those who believe that the proposition should attack the Council of Ministers, should put no confidence in the Council of Ministers, I just remind people of what the Minister for Treasury and Resources said yesterday and it reminded me very much of Tony Blair or Henry V, Part 4, I think, at Agincourt. We heard a string of words from the Minister in his speech when he said: "I will be helping. I will be redesigning. I will be transforming. I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with Ministers. I will provide solutions. I will be supporting. I will be working with. I will be expanding, exciting, providing essentials, promoting, optimistic delivery, more just and fairer." This is one Minister for Treasury and Resources. Where is the need for the other Ministers if he is going to do all of that and I missed about half a dozen at the beginning before I decided I was going to try and get it down and my shorthand was not good enough. So this proposition is here because of the actions of the Minister  for  Treasury  and  Resources.   Do  we  believe  that  deemed  distribution  is  perfectly acceptable because it is personal tax? The Minister even yesterday was still saying that it is personal in his view and the E.U. is wrong. Do we believe that deemed distribution is a minor matter? Do we leave it until the States in June to resolve the issue, which was a fortnight ago? Are there plenty of alternatives do we believe? Do we believe that G.S.T., as the Minister for Treasury and Resources has argued on occasion, is not regressive? Do we believe we are out of the recession? Do we believe his statement on the hustings: "I will oppose a rise in G.S.T."? Do we believe a categorical assurance that in the event of a recession, he will not be putting up G.S.T.? Do we believe, above all, that we will not be cutting any frontline services, another assurance that we were given despite £65 million? Again, either one or the other. I do not think you can do both. Penultimately, just a quick word to Senator Shenton who appears to think that he has been talking to Danny Blanchflower and not David Blanchflower.  [Laughter] He was talking to Danny Blanchflower and he saw plenty of wrong with his arguments but I do not know what they were talking about, probably Bill Nicholson's W formation and the role of a halfback in modern football. [Laughter] Perhaps the offside rule, which I believe Danny Blanchflower would probably get right. But actually it was David Blanchflower, the economist, and not Danny. Finally, I turn to

Joseph Stiglitz, another U.S. (United States) economist and Nobel prize-winner, yet another one, yesterday where it says Britain is embarking - and for Britain I will transfer these words identically which start Jersey - "Jersey is embarking on a highly risky experiment. More likely than not, it will add one more data point to the well-established result that austerity in the midst of a downturn lowers G.D.P. (Gross Domestic Product), increases unemployment and excessive austerity can have long-lasting effects." I urge Members to support this proposition and I call for the appel.

The Bailiff :

The appel is called for then in relation to the proposition of Deputy Southern . I invite Members to return to their seats and the Greffier will open the voting.