States Meeting Transcript - 30th June 2011

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT THURSDAY, 30th JUNE 2011

FAREWELL TO HIS EXCELLENCY, THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, LIEUTENANT-

GENERAL A.P. RIDGWAY................................................................3

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):..................................................3 His Excellency, the Lieutenant Governor, Lieutenant-General A.P. Ridgway: .................5

ADJOURNMENT.................................................................................8 STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY.........................8

1. Statement by the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the acquisition of Lime Grove House ........................................................................8

1.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.......................8

1. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:................................................9
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................10

3. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................10
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................10
5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................11
6. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:......................................................11
7. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................12
8. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary:.................................................12

9. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................12
10. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier:...............................................12

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption ..............................................................13

2. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011): third amendment (P.72/3011 Amd.(3)) - paragraph 3 - resumption...............................................................13

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................13

2. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011): third amendment (P.72/3011 Amd.(3)) - paragraph 5..............................................................................14

2.2.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................14

3. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011) - as amended................................15

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................15
2. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................16
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................16
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................18
5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................19
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................20
7. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................20
8. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................23
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................24

10. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................24
11. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................25

3. Valerie Band House: therapeutic workshop (P.80/2011)...............................27

3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28

4. Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme: Committee of Management – appointment of Chairman (P.83/2011)..................................................29

4.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................29

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................30
2. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................30
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................30
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................30 Senator A.J.H. Maclean:......................................................................31

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................32

5. Deputy J.B. Fox (Vice-Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):..............32

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................35

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

[9:30]

FAREWELL TO HIS EXCELLENCY, THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, LIEUTENANT- GENERAL A.P. RIDGWAY

The Bailiff :

As Members know, this is a special sitting to say farewell to His Excellency and Lady Ridgway after what all agree, I think, has been an outstandingly successful term of office. His Excellency has been a regular attendee at meetings of the States and so I am particularly delighted to welcome His Excellency and Lady Ridgway to the Assembly today. [Approbation] I now invite the Chief Minister to address the Assembly.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

It is my task today, and it is both an honour and a pleasure, to express the warm appreciation of Members for the 5 years of dedicated service given to Jersey by the Lieutenant Governor, His Excellency Lieutenant-General Andrew Ridgway, and to wish both His Excellency and Lady Ridgway well as they leave us today. Five years ago, when the previous Governor, Sir John Cheshire and his wife were leaving, many of us were of the opinion that they would be a hard act to follow. Today, as we bid farewell to Sir Andrew and Lady Ridgway, I can only say that in my view, they have risen to that challenge and succeeded in full measure. [Approbation] From time to time, some of us have a sense of frustration and irritation about the way we conduct our proceedings in this Chamber. The regular presence of His Excellency at so many of our sittings displays his strong sense of duty [Laughter] which I am sure is the case. However, what I believe it also demonstrates is a keen interest in Island politics and this reflects his keen interest in every aspect of Island life. Before taking up the post of Lieutenant Governor in Jersey, His Excellency's career took him to a number of demanding roles in some of the most challenging areas of the world, Northern Island, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Kuwait and Kosovo. He could be forgiven for thinking the 5 years in Jersey would be something of a rest. [Laughter] However, the energy and commitment shown by His Excellency and Lady Ridgway to their duties must surely have made their stay as active as many of those postings around the globe. Perhaps life at Government House may be a little less hazardous than the time he spent commanding U.N. (United Nations) Forces in Central Bosnia Herzegovina, but I would suggest it has been equally demanding in other ways. Since arriving in the Island aboard a Royal Navy fishery protection vessel, H.M.S. Tyne in 2006, His Excellency and Lady Ridgway have between them taken on the patronage of 88 different organisations. His Excellency has worked with the aid of a trust to find financial help for numerous charities and organisations, allowing them to expand their activities in ways they would not otherwise have been able to afford. For instance, the Friends of the Glass Church was established under the patronage of Sir Andrew to raise £1 million of that world-renowned building and to ensure its long-term future as an international centre of worship and healing. The funds will be used to complete an ambitious restoration programme which will bring this unique art deco building to its former glory. On a smaller scale, and perhaps closer to my own home patch, when the St. John's Youth and Community Trust needed to raise the money to build skateboard facilities at the Recreation Centre, Sir Andrew helped that Trust to secure funding. This money contributed to the provision of modern and functional recreation facilities for young people in the Parish of St. John and beyond. In his charity work, His Excellency has tirelessly devoted his own time, as indeed has Lady Ridgway, to finding out where help is needed and then enabling organisations to access the help that they need. I am especially aware of Lady Ridgway's involvement and commitment to Brighter Futures and, indeed, to the activities at the Bridge as a whole. However, there are many other such examples of their involvement, which I could also mention because there

are so many organisations and institutions in which they have taken an interest. I am sure that they have spent much time in the last few months in saying farewell to many of those bodies. However, I am sure that all those bodies would welcome the opportunity for me to express their thanks publicly for all the support that they have received from you, Sir, and Lady Ridgway. There are also a number of activities that they have done quietly and discreetly, and of which most people will be totally unaware but for all those whose lives have been touched and supported, may I, on their behalf, express their thanks. His Excellency has not been content merely to follow in his predecessor's footsteps. He has ploughed his own furrow and will certainly leave his mark, not least for introducing a new sport to the Island. In 2006, His Excellency challenged Islanders to produce a bobsleigh team. You may think that as we have a temperate climate, this may be a step too far but Jamaica has already paved the way for flat, non-icy countries to take part in that sport. [Laughter] The fact that Jersey had little ice and fewer mountains represented no barrier. His Excellency saw the enthusiasm with which Jersey people embrace every sport they tackle and he knew that there was potential. All you need, he told us, are people with the right attributes and he would organise the rest and he did. He has fixed it and now we have a fully fledged bobsleigh team, 2 of whose members were selected last year to represent Great Britain, both on the European Cup Circuit and the Junior World Championships and there are hopes that an Islander might even be selected to represent Great Britain in the next Winter Olympics. During his time in Jersey, His Excellency has also established a Jersey Army Cadet Force, raised more than £175,000 with the Swimarathon team and dedicated time and effort on a personal environmental project, turning a swamp area in the grounds of Government House into a small lake which is now home to fish, ducks and other birds. I should personally like to commend him particularly for his tenacity in promoting the Army Cadet Force. The results were there for all to see at the Armed Forces Day last Saturday. Of course, one of the important tasks performed by the Lieutenant Governor is opening Government House to welcome foreign ambassadors, dignitaries, representatives of various organisations and members of the public. This he has done, with the loyal support of Lady Ridgway, with enthusiasm and good humour. In the last 5 years, His Excellency and Lady Ridgway have entertained as guests the Princess Royal who has stayed there 5 times, as well as the Earl and Countess of Wessex, the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent. They have hosted visiting Ambassadors, High Commissioners and dignitaries across the world from Canada to China and numerous European countries. Sir Andrew's previous roles with the Ministry of Justice have provided Ministers, and me in particular, with an insight into the workings of the department which have been invaluable in developing a good working relationship with the U.K. (United Kingdom) Government that has responsibility for the Crown Dependencies. Earlier this week, I was asked by Lord Bach, who had responsibility for the Crown Dependencies in the last Government, to send his best wishes in this retirement week. When I was a young man, even when I was a reasonably young States Member, the Lieutenant Governor was a much more remote figure and Government House was regarded, rightly or wrongly, as hallowed turf reserved for the great and the good. Sir Andrew and Lady Ridgway have continued the excellent traditions established by some of their recent predecessors of interacting much more with all sections of the people of Jersey and again have set new standards of inclusiveness in the way that this has been achieved. Finally, I would like to add my personal thanks to His Excellency and Lady Ridgway and the team at Government House for their tremendous hospitality, be that at official dinners or the regular working breakfast, which he and I shared. I shall particularly remember the Annual Christmas Carol evenings with different choirs lining the stairs of Government House. His Excellency and Lady Ridgway have developed many friendships in the last 5 years, many of which, I am sure, will be sustained after they return to their home in Devon. These friendships have been made through their official connections with many different sections of the community and also with members of the public

who appreciated the genuine interest they have shown in so many aspects of Island life. [9:45]

I am sure I speak for all in the House and throughout the Island when I say how pleased we were to hear of the recent announcement in the Queen's Birthday Honours of his knighthood, a fitting conclusion to his term of office here in Jersey and an honour which many of us would say was long overdue. [Approbation] I am sure Members will all join me in wishing Sir Andrew and Lady Ridgway all the very best in their next ventures. I hope they will remember their time here with fondness, as I am sure we will remember their contribution to Island life. Sir, this Island is proud of its traditions and I should like to conclude by asking Members to show their appreciation to His Excellency and Lady Ridgway in our traditional manner. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Chief Minister. His Excellency has sat through many long debates and has had to hold his tongue. Now is His Excellency's opportunity. [Laughter] I invite His Excellency to address the Assembly.

His Excellency, the Lieutenant Governor, Lieutenant-General A.P. Ridgway:

Mr. Bailiff , thank you. May I thank you especially for convening this Special Sitting of the States Assembly. It is a great honour for me to be given this opportunity to address the Assembly and it is very much appreciated. I am, however, conscious that you have been sitting for much of the past 2 weeks debating the Island Plan and, indeed, will be continuing to debate the North of Town Masterplan after I have finished so I will therefore be brief. [Laughter] But if you will permit me, after a 5-year wait for this opportunity, not too brief. [Laughter] It has been said that a week is a long time in politics. This may well be true but as I look around the Assembly this morning, one thing is very certain and that is that 5 years in politics in Jersey certainly is a very long time. On 15th June 2006, my welcome address in the Assembly was given by Senator Syvret. Of the 10 newly appointed Ministers of the day, only one, Senator Cohen, remains in the post held at that time and even his title has changed. Many of the original States Members have moved on and been replaced by a new crop and the Bailiff , Deputy Bailiff , Attorney General and Solicitor General are all new in post. Only the Dean, among the non-elected of the Assembly, provides a measure of stability and if I may, I would like to congratulate him on the quality of his thoughtful interjections at key points in many important debates. [Approbation] If the composition of the Assembly has changed greatly over the past 5 years, so have the challenges to be faced. I note from my first speech that I congratulated the Assembly on the way that it was addressing the significant challenges that it faced at the time rather than ignoring the most difficult issues. I am pleased to say that the States has continued so to do. The range of issues then facing the Island, including diversification of the economy, increasing unemployment, ageing population, protection of the environment, control of population increase and many others, remain just as important today but they have been compounded by the biggest international financial crisis since the 1930s and the requirement to restructure the corporate tax regime which has all put further strain on the Island's resources. I still believe that it is very much to the credit of this Assembly that these issues have been addressed head-on and, in most cases, workable solutions found. A further challenge for the States in my early years in post was Haut de la Garenne. It very quickly became clear that a number of Islanders had been subjected to appalling abuse over a period of years and that some of the perpetrators of these crimes were still living in the Island and elsewhere. All available efforts

should then have been focused on caring  for the victims of this abuse and in bringing those responsible to justice. Unfortunately, some individuals in the Island chose to exploit the situation for their own personal political ends and diverted attention to fanciful claims of mass child murder and institutional cover-up. The international media were happy to oblige them and, as a result, it will take decades for Jersey to lose its association with child  murder. However, much more important is the way this action diverted attention away from the real priority of caring for the abused and bringing the guilty to justice. [Approbation] There is, I believe, still much to be learned from this episode. While, as I have said, it is much to the credit of the States that it continues to address the many difficult issues that it faces, this is not to suggest for a moment that

agreement on the selected courses of action has been forthcoming; far from it. Members of the Assembly will remember the intensity of the debates over everything from waste disposal through public sector wage freezes to G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax). This is entirely proper and, indeed, is democracy in action. However, the intensity of many of the debates and the vociferous public opposition to some of the action has prompted some to question the effectiveness of our political system. While holding the Council of Ministers to account is an important function of this Assembly, and the absolute democratic right of every citizen, it is perhaps worth putting the performance of those charged with fulfilling the functions of government over the years into context. The Island is now emerging from the recession with no debt, with substantial financial reserves, and having been able to support the economy financially through the difficult last few years. This is the consequence of sound financial planning over many years and very few jurisdictions in Europe are in this happy position. It is perhaps also worth reflecting that the community here in Jersey enjoys a broadly similar level of public services in terms of Health, Social Services, Education, Social Security and so on to that of most European nations. There are, of course, some differences here and there but the general level of service is broadly the same. The difference is that most European nations contribute some 50 per cent of their income in taxation, and in some Scandinavian countries the level is over 65 per cent. It does rather put 20 per cent income tax with 5 per cent G.S.T. into context. The Island also benefits enormously from its enduring culture of honorary service and the powerful charitable sector within the economy. Together, these features of Island life make a huge contribution to the wellbeing of the community at large but, despite all this, there has been widespread criticism of our current form of government. I do believe that we should remember that Ministerial government is very new here. It has been in place for less than 6 years. It would be astonishing if it did not warrant some modification at this stage. It, after all, took centuries for the system in London to evolve to its current state. The question of reform of the States is a subject that has attracted lengthy discussions in this Assembly and I have sat through many of them. I do not believe that these debates have always been the Assembly's finest hour. [Laughter] All too often, we seem to have been preoccupied with relatively minor adjustments to the composition of the Assembly without addressing the really important issues. In military terms, we have been preoccupied with tactical issues while ignoring the strategy. Among the big issues are questions like what is this States Assembly for? Before I arrived in Jersey, I read the Guide to Ministerial Government and I had discussions with the then Bailiff and the then Chief Minister. It seemed entirely clear to me that the States Assembly was the legislature responsible for making laws and holding the Executive to account. However, having spent some time in the Island, it became clear that many members of the population considered the States Assembly to be the Executive. Rather more worrying, having spent some time sitting through debates in the Assembly, it became clear that many States Members also thought that the Assembly was the Executive. Even more worrying still, it rapidly became clear that several of the Ministers also felt unable to make key decisions themselves and felt the need to bring relatively minor issues back to the States for Executive approval. It would seem to me to be vitally important to get the role of the Assembly agreed before addressing its composition. I believe that there is a similar question over the role of Scrutiny. Again, my pre-deployment preparation led me to the view that Scrutiny was required to fill several very important roles. Crucially, these included the detailed review and amendment of draft laws rather in the way that the Committee stage of a Bill at Westminster is prepared for Third Reading and subsequently for passage to the amending Upper Chamber. However, this function appears to have been largely neglected in favour of Scrutiny's function as the equivalent of Westminster's Select Committees. Indeed, just to show that I do read these things, I spotted in an edition of Scrutiny Matters the statement that Scrutiny Panels were the direct equivalent of Select Committees. Now, I understand there has even been an initiative to change the name of our Scrutiny Panels to Select Committees. This is all absolutely fine as long as someone is carrying out the vital task of review and amendment of proposed legislation. Now, I have noticed some satisfaction in certain sections of the Assembly that after lengthy debate, decisions were finally taken of reducing the number of Senators in the Assembly and doing away

with a separate Senatorial Election Day. I can only observe that it might have been better to identify the future role of the Senator before deciding how many, if any, were needed. [Approbation] It does seem that in the absence of political parties, the Senatorial Election is the only opportunity that the Island-wide population has to let politicians know what policies they want to be followed during the next term. Successful Senators are thus the only Members of this Assembly with any sort of Island-wide popular mandate. Equally, unsuccessful Senatorial candidates know that the policies that they have proposed are not supported by the population at large. One might have hoped that this might have reduced the number of rather futile propositions brought before the Assembly. The Members of this Assembly have, of course, the absolute democratic right to vote for whatever constitutional changes they see fit. It just seems a pity that having decided to establish a Commission to address these issues from top to bottom, certain decisions have been allowed to prejudge the outcome of the review. I could go on and on about the dual role of the Bailiff , the important role of the Connétable s in the Assembly and the inequity of some members of the population being able to select 2 or 3 Deputies to represent them where the majority of the population can only have one but I will not. There are clearly many important issues to be addressed and the Review Commission will have an absolutely vital role to play. I would just offer 2 words of counsel. The first is for this Assembly to select the right person to lead the review and, crucially, be sure that it is someone who has a deep understanding of Jersey and secondly, to ensure that the population is fully engaged in the process. This is not a subject for the States Assembly to decide upon behind closed doors but I am sure that I am preaching to the converted. The future composition of the States is not, I believe, the only issue to be addressed. There is also a need to consider some of our working practices and the way business is done. People often report to me that they are frequently disappointed by the quality of the debate in the Assembly. Some States Members have suggested that courses in public speaking should be made available. There may well be some merit in this. However, my own view is that the quality of the debate would be dramatically enhanced if all States Members observe the basic level of common courtesy one to another. [Approbation] I would simply ask that if any Member is about to get to his or her feet and plans to be patronising, derogatory, insulting or condescending, then please stay seated and think again. Such behaviour goes down very badly with the public at large. It demeans the individual, it demeans the States as a whole, and it demeans the whole political process in the Island. It was interesting a couple of years ago that following a particularly vitriolic debate in the Assembly, the children of one of our primary schools sent around some basic rules to be adopted by States Members. I kept mine in my States folder. It says: "Do listen; do be kind; do be honest; do be gentle; do look after property; and do work hard" and it was signed by Patrick. Out of the

mouths of babes. [10:00]

I would like to finish, Mr. Bailiff , by offering some words of thanks, firstly, to the States Members for allowing me to sit in on their debates over the past 5 years and to speak on this occasion. I have found the debates invariably interesting and stimulating and they have provided me with a most valuable insight into political thinking within the Island. Secondly, to my staff from Government House. I am pleased that they have been able to attend today's sitting and are up in the gallery now. I would like to pay a special tribute to Charles Woodrow and the team in the office, the team in the House and in the grounds. They have provided us with unparalleled support and I cannot begin to imagine how we would have managed without them. Thank you. [Approbation] I would like to make a special  mention of Peter Lewin, the Receiver General. He is responsible  for managing the Crown Estate in the Island and he has worked tirelessly behind the scenes to increase the value of the Estate. The Crown Estate provides a range of benefits to the Island and, for example, recently purchased a unique 15th century Edward IV Royal Charter, which now resides in the Jersey Archive. The document is dated 10th March 1469 and refers to a period of French occupation of the Island from 1461 to 1468. It would have been tragic if such an important

document had been lost to the Island for ever. But in addition to this sort of activity, during my time in office, we have handed over to the States Treasurer the income from the Crown Estate of some £1.5 million which should make everyone realise what a cost-effective operation Government House really is. [Approbation] Next I would like publicly to pay tribute to my wife, Valerie. She could not have supported me better throughout my time in office, as well as throughout my military career. This appointment is definitely a team effort and I would like to think that we work well together for the benefit of the community. I am enormously grateful to her for everything that she has done. She now embarks upon a new career as a lady of leisure and pleasure [Laughter] [Approbation] while I work relentlessly to keep her in the style to which she has become accustomed! [Laughter] Finally, I would like to offer our most sincere thanks to the community in Jersey. Right from the start, we could not have been made more welcome. We have been made to feel part of the community throughout our stay. We have made many friends here and very much look forward, after a decent interval to let our successors settle in, to returning to this beautiful Island. We will only be 100 miles away across the sea and, as Sadie would have said, I suspect that our hearts will "regularly turn in longing to thee" and the memories you awaken will certainly be bright. We will never forget our time in beautiful Jersey, a true gem of the sea. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, your Excellency. That concludes this Special Sitting I invite Members, after we rise, to make their way into the Royal Square where His Excellency and Lady Ridgway will depart in due course and the Assembly will convene at 11.00 a.m. Very well, the Sitting is adjourned.

ADJOURNMENT [11:00]

The Bailiff :

I think for the sake of good order, the most appropriate way of proceeding is that we will have one roll call now because some Members came back for the Special Sitting but have now had to go again. We will not have prayers again and then we will proceed. Very well, I invite the Greffier to call the roll.

The Roll was called.

The Bailiff :

Before returning to the debate, the Minister for Treasury and Resources has given notice he would like to make a statement. It seems to me convenient that we deal with this at the beginning of the Assembly so I invite the Minister to make a statement.

STATEMENT ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY

1. Statement by the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the acquisition of Lime Grove House

1.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I wish to inform Members that I presented a report under Standing Order 168 notifying the Assembly of the intention to purchase Lime Grove House in Green Street for use by the States of Jersey Police. This is an important and significant acquisition and I wanted to make a statement to set out the background and overall reasoning and to provide Members with the opportunity to question me. Members will be aware that the project to relocate the States of Jersey Police has a long history. Work began in the 1990s with plans for a new facility on the Esplanade Car Park site. Since then the project has been through much iteration, including 2 feasibility studies, the evaluation of more than 20 sites and consideration of a scheme on the Summerland site. The Assembly has already voted a total of £18.1 million to the Police Capital Project with further allocations proposed within the Capital Programme of £2 million in 2012, £1 million in 2013 and £1 million in 2014. The need to relocate both the operational and administrative sections of the police has now become critical. In addition to having use of buildings that far exceeded their economic life, with significant maintenance problems, existing facilities do not meet Home Office guidelines and are not suitable for a modern police service. Considerable work has been done to ensure that Lime Grove House meets the needs of the States of Jersey Police. The building will accommodate around 180 office-based staff, including the Criminal Justice Unit, C.I.D., (Crime Investigation Department), Joint Financial Crimes Unit, Scenes of Crimes Unit, Special Branch, Control Room, and Directorate. Through acquiring a modern, open-plan building and by implementing modern office standards, we will achieve real efficiencies in the use of the space. The proposed acquisition of Lime Grove House forms a 2-part solution. Firstly, Lime Grove House will accommodate all office-based staff currently based on the Summerland and Rouge Bouillon sites. The second phase will be the demolition of the old school building and the refurbishment of the remaining facilities on Rouge Bouillon site to create a small operational police station, including a custody suite. In approving this first phase, Members should be aware that I have taken some convincing that this is the right and the best value option for the States of Jersey. The proposed acquisition has been the subject of lengthy negotiations and the agreed price is supported by independent valuations and the proposals form part of the most beneficial options for meeting the needs of the States of Jersey Police. Members can be reassured that the Treasury has carried out a thorough evaluation of all available options, including a full financial appraisal. Through a combination of moving to modern office accommodation and vacating inadequate, poorly utilised space, this project will reduce floor space by up to 30,000 square feet, free up the Summerland site for housing, allow implementation of modern office space standards and enable the States of Jersey Police to improve its working methods. I am now convinced that Lime Grove House forms the central part of an option which represents the least development costs, enables police requirements to be met quickly, and frees up the Summerland site for future housing, something which we have, of course, been debating in the Island Plan over the past few days. This option has the full support of the Minister for Home Affairs and the States of Jersey Police. As with normal arrangements under Standing Order 168, the commercial details of the proposed acquisition, including the agreed price, must remain confidential until the transaction has been completed. Members should be aware that considerable work has been undertaken to ensure that these arrangements do represent value for money. This project represents the first step in a major office rationalisation strategy which is designed to deliver greater efficiency in the occupation of States buildings, reduce the number of sites occupied and improve collaboration between departments. My Assistant Minister hopes to continue progress with the other phases of the strategy over the next 6 months. Finally, I would like to thank the Minister for Home Affairs and his team at the States of Jersey Police, in particular the Chief and Deputy Chief of Police, not only for their patience, but for their considerable support in bringing this project to a successful conclusion. I would also like to thank the Constable of St. Peter who, in his role as Assistant Minister with responsibility for property, has provided me with wholehearted support in bringing this matter to a conclusion. I must also recognise the role played by the Acting Chief Executive and Assistant Chief Executive in bringing

this matter to a conclusion along with, of course, the support provided by Jersey Property Holdings. After many years of living in inadequate and inappropriate accommodation, I look forward to welcoming the States of Jersey Police into their new home.

The Bailiff :

Very well. So Members have an opportunity to ask questions.

1. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

While I welcome this letting of an empty building on an important site and the new home to the States Police, would the Minister reconfirm to the Assembly that he supports, in principle, that the States should pay rates on their properties? Does he recognise that this move will lead to a loss of about £5,000 per annum to St. Helier ratepayers and the housing that he talks about will, of course, not produce any rates for a considerable period of time? Under those circumstances, would he be willing to make sure that Treasury continues to remit that relatively modest sum of money to the Parish in the meantime?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Constable has risen on a number of occasions in the last week wearing almost 2 different hats. On the one side, he wants us to save money; on the other hand, he wants to not see development apparently now on Esplanade Square. I want the Parish to maximise their rates value by exciting commercial development across town. There is an issue of the States paying rates but that also must be a burden shared by all taxpayers and no doubt will be the subject of future debates in this Assembly. He knows my own position is we have to find the money, we have to find the solution, but it has to be fair to all Parishes as well.

2. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Can I just follow up; I did not really get an answer. I did ask the Minister for Treasury and Resources whether he was willing, in the short term, to make sure that the Parish did not suffer a loss of about £5,000 from the letting of this building to the States body.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am not prepared to confirm that at this moment. I need to take advice in relation to the full liability and the other consequential benefits that the releasing of other land will have to the Parish.

3. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

Three little sub-questions. The first one is: there is reference to a reduction in office space by 30,000. What is the gross floor area of the new building? In relation to provision of official parking for States of Jersey Police and their officers and staff, how will that impinge on Green Street Car Park? How is he proposing to relate the occupation of this building by the States of Jersey Police with the residential units adjoining it?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think that I will send a note, if I may, about the actual precise square footages of the different sites because I probably cannot do justice within 10 minutes of it but I will give the Deputy , if I may, the full breakdown. Regarding the parking, an arrangement is being made in order to allow the States of Jersey Police special access to the underground parking on Lime Grove House which meets all of their security requirements, and I cannot remember the third question, I am sorry.

Deputy S. Power: The residential units.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I understand that the Minister for Home Affairs and his team and the Deputy Police Chief, who has done an enormous amount of work on this, is entirely satisfied that the residential units next to an office space police station is entirely appropriate.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Can the Minister tell us what are the plans for the Rouge Bouillon site and what is the extent of the footprint for the much smaller police station that will be developed on that site? Given it will be smaller, what is happening to the rest of the site and the fire service?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

A very good question. First of all, the real prize in this, which is the reason why I have been convinced, is that the Summerland site currently occupied by the States of Jersey Police in frankly terrible accommodation is going to be available to deployment for housing and, I very much hope, affordable housing. There is a related transaction in relation to this to secure the whole of that site. In terms of the Rouge Bouillon site, the old St. Helier Girls' School is going to be vacated and we are looking at the ambulance station and the whole of that site about having a unified ambulance, fire service and operational police station, and that is going to be a subject of a further rationalisation, and I hope releasing some land by efficient use of all the blue light services together, and that is going to be funded by the subsequent capital allocations that this Assembly will consider, one of which is in the Business Plan.

5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

The Minister tells us in his statement that he has taken some convincing that this is right and best value option for the States of Jersey. Without breaking any confidences under Standing Order 168, would the Minister be able to assure the House that indeed the acquisition price, whatever it is, does not include a substantial premium over and above what independent valuations have arrived at?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

That is a very good question. I have taken some convincing and I have been, as Members would expect, pretty difficult in relation to being convinced of the acquisition of a piece of land by the States when we have so much. I have been convinced that the purchase price does represent value for money. It was supported by valuations and there has been intense dialogue over the last few months to improve upon the overall package that we have now reached. I am satisfied that this represents an appropriate value. I have been very difficult with Property Holdings in relation to the evaluation method in relation to this site and I am happy to brief any Member confidentially on my reasoning and now my justification for being satisfied. No, there is not a premium in relation to the issue and I am satisfied that red book valuations have been carried out, but I have been extremely difficult and I am grateful for the Minister for Home Affairs bearing with me while I have been difficult but achieving value for money.

6. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

So am I to understand from what the Senator says is that the reason for it taking so long and for the Police Department to have been working in inadequate and inappropriate accommodation is because the Minister has needed to be convinced, question number one, and 2

The Bailiff :

Well, just one question, Deputy , because a lot of Members want to ask questions.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

If I may say, I think that the police have been poorly treated by the central departments responsible for bringing capital projects to a conclusion.

[11:15]

This has taken far too long. There were original problems with quite frankly crazy proposals for police stations with bomb blast walls on the Esplanade but we have moved on from that and it is up to the corporate department of Property Holdings to serve the interests of departments in an efficient way, in a timely way, to deal with their issues. We are now making significant progress on doing that. I have taken a few months to convince but we have improved the overall package. We now have an implementable package and I look forward to the States of Jersey Police being in this building within 12 months in order to deliver the efficiencies which the Minister is also asked to do in terms of his police force.

7. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

The Minister said he had taken some convincing that this was the right and best value option for the States. What were the doubts that he had that this was the right and best value for the States?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The original package, which had a whole series of options in it including a whole series of other consequential moves involving other States properties, was not, frankly, going to be able to be possible. A plan that could be implemented, which would not have cost overruns, was properly planned and appropriate prices for the various different constituent part of phase 1.

8. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary :

This, on the face of it, is a good solution. I just wanted to ask about whether the Minister can elaborate on any possible problems with operating from 2 sites. We are always told that it is good to operate from one site, so I would just like clarification that this issue is resolved and a little explanation what the issues might be.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am conferring with my friend, the Minister for Home Affairs, because we regard this almost as a common statement, as a common policy. The Minister advises me that his staff are operating out of 5 sites at the moment and it is their preferred option to be operating out of a back-office office site and a front-office operational police station, which will be at Rouge Bouillon .. hopefully at Rouge Bouillon. We will look at the details of that with their custody suite. This is the police's preferred option and is going to accrue significant operational efficiencies as a result of operating out of 2 sites strategically located in town.

9. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Finally, common sense prevails, congratulations. The reduction of 30,000 square feet I can understand, but can we make sure that we have looked at the long term and we are not going to want to hive off departments as legal requirements or policing requirements progress over periods of time? This is essential. Designing out crime also applies to a police station.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I have full confidence in the new Police Chief and his Deputy under the oversight of the Minister in terms of making sure that there is a long-term solution, but we have got more work to do on the Rouge Bouillon side and the custody suite and the operational side and that is phase 2 that we are going to turn our considerable attention to now.

10. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

I would like to congratulate the Ministers and the Chief of Police who, in my opinion, is doing a wonderful job. I would just like to ask, if I might, the Minister in response to this opportunity to question him on such an important issue. I, for example, would like to suggest at this stage that rationalisation of more parking be made at Green Street, which would be much more cost effective than Snow Hill car park to accommodate these cars. But given His Excellency's speech this morning and given these issues have been around for some time, what exactly is the role of this Assembly and what is the role of the Executive? How does Scrutiny impart its view, given this extensive

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I am sorry, these are no doubt very important questions but I think not for questions in relation to this particular matter.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Succinctly, Sir, does he not think that if we do have a role in questioning this that perhaps it might command a proposition to this Assembly or is it just something that has been decided upon behind the scenes?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

If I may answer, this Assembly's job is to hold me accountable for the decisions that I am recommending. Standing Order 168 sets out an arrangement whereby I notify Members or normally the Assistant Minister, but because of the scale of the transaction, this is being done together, notify Members of the transaction. Members have 15 working days in order to consider it and then I undertake, if there was a proposition to block it - I hope there is not going to be - then I would effectively not instruct officers to proceed with the acquisition. I am making a statement to give Members the opportunity of holding me to account and that is the appropriate role, I think. I asked leave of you, Sir, to make a statement and I thought that was the right way and the right balance of explaining, of holding me to account and, of course, I stand available with the Minister to undertake further answers in the next 15 working days. I would say that I am happy to answer any Member's questions in relation to this matter by email or meeting with a group of Members with the Minister in order to deal with any questions Members may have.

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption

2. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011): third amendment (P.72/3011 Amd.(3)) - paragraph 3 - resumption

The Bailiff :

Very well. Then now we return to the debate on the Masterplan and, in particular, the amendment lodged by the Deputy of St. Mary concerning the Jersey College for Girls site and the next speaker I have seen is Deputy Southern .

1. The Deputy of St. Mary :

Before we resume this debate, I would like to say a few words and then, with the permission of the Assembly, withdraw this, so I think if you would like me to speak first on that basis.

The Bailiff :

Very well, yes. I suspect Members will be more than happy to accommodate you, Deputy .

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Obviously, I have thought about this overnight. I have sensed the gist of all the speeches so far. I think one of the main prods, if you like, to bringing this amendment was in the well, it cannot have been, because it is the comments of the Minister for Treasury and Resources. Nevertheless, there is an issue though and it has been covered in the debate where he says in his comments: "The site has been approved for disposal by the States Assembly. The resulting capital receipt will support the current and future capital investment programme." Now, we have heard, at several junctures in the debate, a commitment to using this site for social rented or affordable housing or certainly for the benefit from the site to go in that direction. So that is one aspect of the commitments that we have heard in the debate and I learned from one of the speakers, who is yet to speak, if you like, that there was a point made about how long this has taken, how long it has taken to get the J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) site up and running which again, of course, led indirectly to my amendment. But he pointed out that, in fact, (a) sorting out all the problems inherent in the site, particularly the listing and so on and (b) making sure that we got maximum value because if we had rushed ahead with this, we might have sold this site for £1.7 million, that sometimes festina lente, make haste slowly, is better. I think what we are faced with now does seem to be a good solution and so I withdraw this amendment with the leave of the House.

The Bailiff :

Does the Assembly agree to give the Deputy of St. Mary leave to withdraw the amendment?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

A number of Members have raised the issue of the listing on the building and I just thought I would make a very brief comment on that.

The Bailiff :

Well, the matter has been withdrawn now. Could you not circulate that perhaps to Members afterwards?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

I could do so, thank you.

2. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011): third amendment (P.72/3011 Amd.(3)) - paragraph 5

The Bailiff :

Very well. So then we move to the next amendment which is paragraph 5 of the 3rd amendment lodged by the Deputy of St. Mary . I will ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Greffier of the States:

Third amendment, paragraph 5 - After the words "an agreed development framework." insert the words "To deliver the Masterplan, the Minister shall, in consultation with the Constable of St. Helier and the Deputies of all the affected districts, set up a body or bodies of officers and politicians to steer the process, and this body or bodies shall engage in genuine consultation with residents of the area of the Masterplan to establish the detailed priorities for improvements to the public realm, and for such other improvements that the consultation process comes up with, to be funded from the funding streams in mentioned in paragraph 4, and from other funding which may be made available."

The Bailiff :

Now, Minister, will you be accepting this amendment?

Senator F.E. Cohen: I will be accepting it.

The Bailiff :

Very well, Deputy of St. Mary. Perhaps  you could propose this amendment which is to be accepted?

2.2.1 The Deputy of St. Mary :

I thank the Minister for accepting this. I note that in his comments, he says more or less this is good practice and we do this anyway. I think that is a very important issue. I re-read my copy of EDAW recently, the study in St. Helier in, I think, 2007 and probably consultation is mentioned twice in the whole document. I am very concerned, and in the Hopkins Report before us today, the mechanism of how it will be decided what the priorities are, which public realm improvements will happen and so on, who will decide again is not set out. So that is why this amendment suggests this approach with politicians or officers and then also the full involvement of the community. I do suggest a focus on residents' car parking, which an obvious place that residents should be involved in those decisions and in working out innovative solutions, as I have suggested in other speeches. I do think this is important; that the community is in the driving seat, the community is really listened to about what happens in their area where they live. I list some consultation techniques and I do not think these have been used. I have never heard of a Planning for Real Conference or Community Planning Forum Conference being held in this area and that is the way I think that we should go. That was the intention of this amendment and I hope that the Minister is accepting the amendment in that spirit.

The Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak on the amendment? Very well. All those in favour of adopting the amendment, kindly show? Those against? The amendment is adopted.

3. North St. Helier Masterplan (P.73/2011) - as amended

The Bailiff :

So that completes the amendments to the proposition of the Minister and therefore we return to the debate upon the proposition to approve the Masterplan. Does any Member wish to speak?

1. The Connétable of St. Helier :

I will be brief because I have been perhaps wrongly criticising some Members for being prolix. I just want to, if I may, set the record straight because I think the Masterplan document, in its latest version, P.73 of this year, rewrites history and I think that should not be left on Hansard and I would like just to correct the rewriting of history because I think these things matter. I want to take the Assembly back 3 years when we had, thanks to Deputy Southern 's intervention, secured the funding for the Millennium Town Park. We had a problem with parking and it was to find a solution to the parking problem that the Minister proposed doing a Masterplan and looking at other sites in the area. It was supposed to take, I think, 3 months. It took the best part of 2 and a half years. Now, I am not going to complain about that because I think the net result is positive and it is good and it is going to be good for town, but I do think it is important to recognise that what was seen as a short-term solution to solving a parking problem and probably which did not solve the problem - well, it will eventually but it has not yet, we have at least got that parking on Ann Court which is very useful in the short term and we have had a lot of debate about parking - but let us not rewrite history. When I look at the introduction to this document on page 3 and it says: "Since 1995, there have been repeated calls for a town park", let us give credit where it is due. It was then Deputy Stuart Syvret, who was, I think, one of the people who came up with the idea of the Millennium Town Park. Let us put his name on the record. Let us put Deputy Southern 's name on the record for getting that crucial funding which allowed the park to get delivered. I think the opening paragraphs.. [Aside]

Deputy S. Power: And Senator Maclean!

The Connétable of St. Helier :

I am sorry; I left out the famous ring-binder. [Laughter] But these opening paragraphs, let me just pick out a couple of examples. The second paragraph says that all of these previous schemes failed to address fundamental principles about how the new park will be stitched into the existing fabric. Not true. That stitching in was part of the previous Island Plan and it is ironic that we have now lost one of the key routes through to Belmont Road because nobody, despite 10 years of talking about it, purchased the property and that is still something which is waiting to happen. Paragraph 3: "The Masterplan is a first attempt to put the new park into its proper urban context." Not true. The Millennium Town Park has been part of our strategic planning for St. Helier for more than a dozen years. Later on, there is the computation of open space and it says on page 6:  "The Masterplan seeks to deliver over 9 vergées of new public open space." Not true. The town park, which this Assembly has on many occasions approved, delivers 7 vergées of those 9. Belmont Gardens, of course, is currently a very important car park for the market traders and I have not been asked to take the matter to a Parish Assembly to take that away from them. That is down here as public space and the site opposite the old fire station is a very important car park administered by

the Parish of St. Helier. I have not been asked to call a Parish Assembly to turn that into open space. So it is not true to say that the Masterplan has delivered all this open space. What the Masterplan has done is the job of master planning and that is important.

[11:30]

I see the Minister for Treasury and Resources is looking irritated. I simply want to get the history correct. The Masterplan has a role to play. It is going to guide our planning in the future but it is not the Masterplan or, indeed, Hopkins that has given us the town park. It is the actions of politicians and, more importantly, it is the hard work of the community that has delivered the town park, the signatures and the hard work of the Millennium Town Park Group which continues to this day to create a park that will meet the aspirations of the community. So while I welcome the Masterplan, I do not think that the Minister should be seeking to give credit to this process when, in fact, the credit should be given elsewhere and that is the only point I want to make.

2. Senator A. Breckon:

I think that the Minister for Planning and Environment made reference to the Le Seulleur building in his introduction, and I would just like to make reference to that because I was involved with Social Security and Health and somebody else and this is an example of us making a real mess of a property transaction. There needs to be community facility and it is probably full of pigeons. The other thing, this proposition was lodged before, towards the back end of last year, and then withdrawn and it has taken a great deal of time. With other Members, I have been to a number of presentations of people who have property in the area who have expressed a wish and have already committed some time and effort and are willing to put in a great deal of money. I am thinking of the Ann Street building site and Le Masuriers and round about that in the public area, and they have put a great deal of time and effort in. Now, whether Members agree with everything is another matter but the fact is they have gone to that and it is their money and, in the current state of the economy, we should be encouraging this to regenerate a part of town that certainly needs it. So in that respect, I hope this debate will give perhaps some confidence and a signal to those people and others that things will happen and this tired part of town will be regenerated. I know the Odeon is an issue but it is something that the Minister has said something and then he has also said something else so hopefully if not now then in the future, there will be an indication of what may happen. I can see Deputy Lewis looking at me. He has not got a torch on me but he is looking at me and I know he had an interest in that but, having said that, if it is just going to stand and fall to bits like the Le Seulleur building, then that is not acceptable either if people are expected to invest around it so that is something that needs to be cleared up. Finally, in saying my few words, I would also like to recognise again, through the Minister for Planning and Environment and the department and the advisers they have had, the tremendous amount of work that has been put in and have produced booklets through presentations and things like that and made this understandable but it needs now .. hopefully after this debate there will be some confidence with the Minister for Planning and Environment, the department, and those who wish to invest to get on and do something because round the town park. I believe these things can happen and it will regenerate

the area and it is much needed.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is interesting this week if we look back from the start of the Island Plan to what will be the end of the debate on this session, we will see a lot of things have emerged as we have conducted the business, not only a number of amendments that have been introduced by the Minister on the fly to accommodate issues, rightly so, but also we have seen emergence of some significant statements from the Executive in relation to the re-housing of the States of Jersey Police. Now, obviously, the overall plan of town, as part of a masterplan, has to take into account some of the arguments and you do try to wrestle them down. In my mind a minute ago, I was trying to grasp - because I do

believe it is a good move to Lime Grove - but I was trying to wrestle down the argument in the back of my mind that was being made yesterday that we need officers not on the ring-road but within the heart of town. I managed to do that by thinking about it is not such a far walk to the north end of Colomberie, which is my district which needs revitalisation, so 180 more people there conducting their work and their business is going to be great. If that frees up that part of town, it will generate business and it will be a great thing. The reason why I am mentioning this is because I think it is linked to some of the parking issues that are significant in relation to the whole of this plan and also working into the Esplanade, which I will not go into, but in relation to this plan we have had discussions I was criticised for not approving a housing development during the Town Hall within St. Helier but yet prepared to bring one at field 1248 and how was it possible that I could say no to a housing development for social housing? The one I said no to, as it turned out when I questioned the criticiser, was the massive car park proposed for Ann Court with a few apartments stuck in the back end of it, which was going to obliterate the townscape and obliterate the quality of life that people would have had but it would not have been living accommodation. It would have been a big, massive car park as we see in the U.K. We had Laura Storey present those images for us to look at, which Hopkins used to demonstrate how ugly and obscene that would have been so I am very glad that I did not support that and I am very glad that we have taken on board Deputy Martin's proposals, and those have been supported by the Minister. But let us think about the opportunities that now represent themselves because we have been told that accommodation can be built there and we do not need to worry about the relocating of States offices on that site and there is a caveat. I wanted to try to address this to the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Minister for Planning and Environment, so I will try to put this across. There is a bit in there that Ann Court should only be done if we cannot find the parking elsewhere within town, and that was something to do with the Deputy of St. Mary's proposal. Yet this morning we are talking about relocating 180 people from just up the road, which obviously will free up a significant number of car parking spaces. I do think and I have spoken to and congratulate the Constable of St. Peter who I think has been instrumental in helping the Minister for Treasury and Resources in this regard in considering building up the back of Green Street to accommodate those vehicles down there on the open space that exists. It could be done sympathetically. It certainly can be done according to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services much more cost effectively than a Snow Hill car park scheme and it could also lead to a reduction of cars in and around these areas of town and it might help us alleviate the pressure that is bearing upon our considerations with Ann Court. So if we do the thinking in the round and we support what the Minister for Treasury and Resources is doing in relation to Lime Grove, then we are going to free up a significant amount of car parking. I would just like to touch upon car parking in relation to the underground issues at the town park because when the town park was coming, and I would also like to commend the Constable of St. Helier for his work, he pulled me on to the Town Park Steering Group, I think, in 1997 or something like that, with former Deputy Bridge and we had many hours over at his School of English across the Square here trying to put together these ideas. So it is Constable Crowcroft as well that needs to be recognised, the Constable of St. Helier and his sterling commitment to this town park. One of the issues we were told in relation to the underground car parking was that there were going to be significant costs incurred if we dug down into the car park, and those were predominantly based around the fact that the car park itself was built upon a watercourse. Not only was there soil to be remediated but there was a lot of water to be considered. Much to my surprise, when I went on top of the car park when the work was being conducted, because I was getting complaints about some of the odours from the neighbours, I went

to go and look at the site. I looked at it and I found the Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment, Deputy Duhamel, and I said: "You know, I am looking at this site from the air and I cannot see any water at all" and there right down deep there, Deputy Duhamel came with me, we looked at it and we took note of the odours and obviously he went back and spoke to his officers and the Transport and Technical Services people, but I am sure that he will agree with me that there was a recognition then at that stage that there was no water involved. We could have very easily

sunk a car park under that site. I said to Deputy Duhamel: "Bring an amendment then, even at this stage, if that is the case, if it is not going to cost so much bring an amendment. Get the Minister for Planning to bring an amendment." Then we have seen Deputy Dupre, who has been chastised for trying to make us look at this recently because everybody wants to press on with this park, and I do. So I said this morning in a response to him by email that I would completely ascertain what the position is because I understand the Chamber of Commerce is also concerned. I had spoken to the Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services and he had told me that the membrane had already been laid, and I have now had that confirmed to me by the Minister from an email from the department and the Minister knows as well. So we have missed the opportunity. We have missed the opportunity to put underground car parking in the town park site and yet we were being told at the time we could not do it because there were water course issues and it was going to be very expensive. We have now been informed that we could have imported French prefabricated concrete moulds and dropped it in and created the spaces for £35,000 a space or something like that, or even cheaper. So we have missed a significant opportunity there and we have missed a significant revenue opportunity, an ongoing capital amount of money that could have maintained this park. Again, I am sorry to say the States has done its usual; put it off, put if off, put it off, put it off until it is panic time and then it is get on with it, get on with it, get on with it, get on with it; and we just hash it together. So while there is a lot of applause to be done as usual at the end of these debates I would say those who had the opportunity to bring an amendment when they recognised there was no water are the ones that should be questioned. Deputy Duhamel and the Minister himself and the Minister for Transport and Technical Services, the Executive had the opportunity to reappraise it. Even if the Deputy of St. Helier and the Constable of St. Helier and I were keen to get on with it I am sure that a rational debate based upon new information could have been considered. The lost opportunity in respect to the Odeon development has now moved on to the concern I have with the other development in town as to how that is going to progress based upon the challenge it is facing in respect to our own competition against it. It is wrong - I have been told - for the States to utilise its position against its people, its monopoly of power. I was told that by the current Deputy Bailiff when he was the Attorney General in a committee meeting that it is wrong for any state in the world to utilise its power over the community in that regard. I am concerned that is what we are going to do with developing the waterfront; we are going to dismiss and remove a wonderful car park that exists at the moment just to get something going on the waterfront and that will undermine possibly the private investment of a company that is willing to put £450 million worth of private investment into this economy at a time when it is direly needed. I am also terribly disappointed that the other plan that they have got, which is equally important to the community and of equal standard in relation to the Odeon, was not warmly embraced by the Minister and others in relation to what it would have delivered and what it could have done in relation to the connectivity that Hopkins talked about in relation to the whole of the North of Town Masterplan. So it seems to me in some circumstances the States are utilising their officers, their power and their own ideas about what we should be doing and their own vested interests against the private initiatives of those that would come forward and invest in Jersey. I am sorry to say if we continue to do that, not only do I believe that is unlawful fundamentally, but I also believe that we are going to drive away the investment. If someone is putting £500 million on the table to redevelop key areas of town from the private sector what are we doing? Why were there not supporting statements from the Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Minister for Economic Development? Where are these people? Where were these supportive comments when these kinds of projects come forwards? All we hear are the people who want to preserve the Odeon and, in my mind, if somebody was to give me permission I would go up there with a coal hammer this afternoon and start the job myself. So let us all congratulate everybody.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

With regard to the town park I know that the Constable of St. Helier has been a proponent for a long time and one must acknowledge the work he has done. Not simply him but also the many town Deputies past and present; and also those members of the public who have been working diligently, I have certainly been receiving the emails and know what is going on and it is good to be kept in the loop. I also know that the Constable is a keen supporter of urban art where that art is good and where it can enhance the town.

[11:45]

I would ask him to consider whether it would be worth erecting a plinth in the town park with the sculpture of a ring binder on it so that everybody, for posterity, can take a walk there. If I could suggest perhaps a little poem to go on the side of the plinth which says: "Ring, ring, what a strange

thing. If you seek a strange story you will find her in the story of a town park funded by a ring binder." [Laughter]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

If the Deputy would give way on a point of clarification; one of the approved sculptures for the town park is a bit like a ring if that is of any consequence.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Members will be interested to know that did not take me many hours, that I just wrote that in a couple of minutes, so there you go, it can be worked upon; it is not binding, if you excuse the pun. I think the serious point does need to be made though because a lot of joking is made about this, and the Deputy of St. Mary reminded me that it is easy to dismiss this vote and the £10 million that was funded to start the town park work early. We have to remember that in fact there was much resistance and it was not an easy battle for that to be won and if that actual vote had not gone through we would not be in a position now where we have got construction of the town park starting. Every time I walk past the construction site it is with anticipation and with a small amount of pride because I know that every vote that took place and was counted during that day was vital for that £10 million to be successful. So it would be wrong to forget and dismiss this as simply an arbitrary act of an inanimate object because it recognises the fact that there were many specifically talking about the town park who had lobbied for much time. It was a hard battle to be fought but it was a battle which was won for the people of St. Helier. As has been pointed out in the past by former Senator Syvret, he said that it will be the only example of a town park which has been created for and paid for by the States of Jersey where all other parks in the Island have been either usually donated by benefactors, for which we are grateful, but surely this is - I would hope - going to be the centrepiece of the new rejuvenated north of town which has been long overdue. So I look forward to the development; I hope that the States can all get behind it now and that we can expect an exciting rejuvenated and vibrant north of town which will extend to the rest of St. Helier, which can be of benefit to the whole Island.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

I suppose I rise to my feet to remind Members that this is the first step on a route of regeneration and the town park was the first step which has kicked into action this magnificent plan to restructure the whole of the north of town and to revive the whole of the north of town. I suppose I warn Members that from time to time it may be an expensive business. The theory is that once we have got the park in place regeneration will occur. Most of that will be private funding; private sector development, et cetera. But from time to time part of the cost will still have to be borne by this Chamber. We have to put in the seed money to invest in order to get that generation for the benefit of the population of St. Helier and the whole Island. So I suppose it is a plea. Bear in mind that I or someone else will be back from time to time asking this Chamber to spend money, and we are currently in very strained times and that is a difficult thing to do. But unless we are prepared to invest in the future it may well be that even this magnificent plan we may not see and that would be a pity. One question I have of the Minister; when I learned yesterday that he had withdrawn at the last minute a set of amendments which I have been looking at and thinking: "These are sound, this is a good way to go, this is an improvement on what was being proposed." Yet yesterday we learned that we had had a last minute change of mind and those, what I saw as very valid and very good improvements to the North of Town Masterplan, had been withdrawn. So I would like the Minister in his summing up to tell us what caused that change of mind that what I saw as final improvements to the plan were at the last minute suddenly withdrawn. It seems to me that there must have been some sort of serious change in mind that amendments could have been drafted and then at the last minute pulled. I think that is a very strange process to have happened and I would like a proper explanation of how it did happen. But I commend the plan overall as it stands at the moment and I wait to hear what that change was, what the difference was.

6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Constable of St. Helier spoke of history and the importance not to rewrite it. So Members may recall the wonderful BBC Radio Jersey series on the Clement Hemery dairies that were broadcast a number of years ago that spoke of the life of Clement Hemery and his wife Portia who died, I think, in the 1870s. He lived in Windsor Crescent and obviously society has moved on in terms of fairness, meritocracy and all sorts of other ways; but those diaries spoke of an elegant life around Windsor Crescent and in this north part of town. In the period since Clement Hemery died it is fair to say that there has been much architectural vandalism in this particular area of town, it has been unloved. To the great credit of the Minister for Planning and Environment, he has been determined to put in place regeneration and a resetting of standards of design in this area, harking back to its original era. I do not believe that it is fair for the Constable of St. Helier, if I may say, to say that the Minister is claiming responsibility for the town park; I do not think there is anything in the document that says that. But the Minister can quite rightly claim credit for setting out a policy that will raise the standards of architecture, of living space, of urban design in this area. Politics is about standing and making a difference and I would encourage Members to vote in favour - I am sure they will in terms of this North of Town Masterplan - but also when they are doing so to think forward 10 years time, 2 Governors later, the year is 2021. Imagine the elegant mixed used tenure of housing that will be created on the Ladies College site or in Belmont Gardens; the improvements around the gas works and potentially the reuse of that site; the redesign of Ann Court with a mixed tenure development hopefully looking after elderly citizens at that stage; the hundreds of units of accommodation that will have been created; I hope the Constable's consultation at David Place will work, the new elegant David Place, which will see the expansion of the pavements that we have already done in York Street and Broad Street. I thank the Constable for having been nice in terms of our joint working in terms of the campaigning that we did for Broad Street and York Street and the Minister's own involvement with that before he was in the States. We can achieve elegance; we can achieve a great place to live, a great place to work and a great place to relax in this North of Town Masterplan. It would not have happened and it will not happen, that new world that we can imagine in 2021, which will happen because of investment; both public investment and private investment and the urban generation steering group, under which S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) sits, will achieve this. So it is a combination of measures; a framework, the delivery mechanism and encouraging private investment together with the tariff. I think this is about politics that makes a difference and I think this North of Town Masterplan will make a difference and the history books in 2021 will say that this Assembly made a good decision and this