States Meeting Transcript - 15th May 2012

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 15th MAY 2012

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

1. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REPLACEMENT AND COST OF SQUARE MANHOLE COVERS:......................................7
2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING JERSEY TELECOM'S FIBRE OPTIC EXPANSION:...........................................................................7
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE USE OF ZERO HOURS' STAFF:....................8
4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING ASH FROM LA COLLETTE:.........9
5. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE RESURFACING OF THE AIRPORT ROAD:.................................................................................11
6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE CONTRIBUTIONS SYSTEM:......................12

7. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING RENEWABLE ENERGY:..............................................13
8. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE FUNDING OF TOURISM DEVELOPMENT......................................................................14
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE USE OF ZERO HOURS' STAFF BY STATES DEPARTMENTS:..............15
10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDINGTAX REVENUES FROM ZERO RATED COMPANIES:..........................................................................16
11. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE MODERNISATION OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR:................17

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................18

1. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding the reasons for differences in the salary ranges advertised for public sector positions:..............18 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................18

1. The Connétable of St. Martin:..........................................................18
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................18
3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................18
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................19

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................19

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a Human Rights Audit of the Department's Laws, Regulations, Orders, Guidance Notes and Procedures before the introduction of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law 2000:...........19 Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment):.........19

2.2.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................20

3. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the retirement package for the Consultant of Obstetrics and Gynaecology who retired in March 2012:20 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................20

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................20
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................20
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................21
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................21
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................21
6. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................21

4. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the source of the compensation to be paid to the victims of historical chid abuse:........................22 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................22

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................22
2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................22
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................22
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................23
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
6. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................23

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding a comparison of figures for elective surgery between the first quarter of 2012 and the first quarter of 2008:............................................................24 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................24

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................24
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................24
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................24
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25
6. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................25
7. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................25
8. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................25
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................25

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Chief Minister regarding the re- introduction of the States Loan Scheme:................................................26 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................26

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................26
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................26
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................27
4. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................27
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................27

7. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the H.M Attorney General regarding potential conflicts of interest within the judicial system:......................................................27 Mr. T.J. Le Cocq Q.C., H.M. Attorney General: ..............................................27

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................28
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28

3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
4. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................29
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................29
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................29
7. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................29
8. Deputy T.M.Pitman....................................................................30

8. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Social Security regarding social security contributions paid by the employers of pensioners:.....................................30 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................30

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................30
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31
6. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................31
7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................32

9. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chief Minister regarding Jersey's participation in the Queen Elizabeth II Fields Challenge:..........................................................32 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................32

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................33
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................33

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the use of zero-hours contracts by employers in attempts to either avoid legal obligations to employees or to evade headcount quotas:................................................................34 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................34

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................34
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................34
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................35
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................35
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................36
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................36
9. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................36
10. Senator P.F. Routier:...............................................................36
11. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..............................................................37
12. Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................37

11. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding staff resignations highlighted within the Sharp Report:......................................37 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):............37

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................37
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................38
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................38
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................38

12. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Chief Minister regarding the possible economic consequences of implementation carbon trading and similar exercises:.................38 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................39

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................39
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................39

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................39
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................39
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40

13. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding instances of Personal Protection Insurance being mis-sold in Jersey in the past 5 years:.............40 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................40

1. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................40
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................40
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................41
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................41
5. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................41
6. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................42
7. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................42

14. The Connétable of St. John of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding tenders for States building contracts:............................................................42 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................42

1. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................43
2. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:....................................................44
3. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................44
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
6. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................44

15. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding conformity with the European Convention on Human Rights:..........................45 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................45

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................45
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................46
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
5. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................47
6. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................47
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................47

3. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Home Affairs ..............47

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................47 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................47

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................48
   2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48

3.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48

3. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................49
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................49

3.4.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................49

5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

3.5.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................50
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................50
8. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade:.................................................51
9. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................51

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................51

4. Draft States of Jersey Police Force Law 201- (P.182/2011) ............................52

1. Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): ...........................52

1. The Connétable of St. Martin:..........................................................54
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................57
3. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................58
4. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................60
5. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................61
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................61
7. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................62
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................62
9. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................62

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................63 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................63

2. Draft States of Jersey Police Force Law 201- (P.182/2011) - proposition of Deputy G.P. Southern for the matter to be referred back under Standing Order 83..........63

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................63
2. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................65
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................67

3. Draft States of Jersey Police Force Law 201- (P.182/2011) - resumption ..............69

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................69
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................70
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................71
4. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................72

4. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................78

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................79
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................80
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................80
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................80
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................80
6. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................80

5. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................84

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................85
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................86
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................86
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................86

5. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................87
   6. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................88

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................90
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................91
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................91
4. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................92
5. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:...................................................92
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................92
7. The Attorney General:..................................................................93
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................94
9. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................94
10. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:........................................................94

11. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................95
12. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................95
13. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................95
14. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..........................................................95

STATEMENT ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................103

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson, Chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel, will make a statement in accordance with Standing Order 79(4) regarding the scrutiny of the proposition entitled Tourism Development Fund: assistance to the private sector (P.26/2012)..............................................................................103

5.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:................................................................103

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................103
2. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................104
3. The Deputy of Grouville :..............................................................104
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................104
5. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................105
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :.................................................................105
7. Deputy J.M. Maçon:..................................................................106
8. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:..............................................................106

PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumption.............................................................106

6. Draft States of Jersey Police Force Law 201- (P.182/2011) - resumption ............106

6.1 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): ..........................106

6.1.1 The Connétable of St. John:...........................................................108

ORAL QUESTIONS - resumption.............................................................109

7. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Chief Minister.........................109

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:.................................................................109 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):.....................................................109
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................109

7.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................109

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:................................................................109

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:................................................................110
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:................................................................110

4. The Deputy of St. Ouen:..............................................................110

7.4.1 The Deputy of St. Ouen:..............................................................110

5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:..................................................................111
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................111
7. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:......................................................111
8. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................112
9. Deputy J.H. Young:...................................................................112
10. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................112

7.10.1 Deputy M. Tadier :..................................................................113

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

[9:30]

QUESTIONS

1.Written Questions

1. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REPLACEMENT AND COST OF SQUARE MANHOLE COVERS:

Question

Would the Minister advise how many square man-hole drain covers have been replaced with round ones in the last three years, why they have been changed, and at what cost?"

Answer

Approximately 230 square manhole covers have been replaced with circular ones in the last three years at a total approximate cost of £107,000.

They are being changed for a number of reasons. Some changes have been necessary as the existing covers have been damaged or have been showing signs of surface wear which is a hazard to traffic.

However, there is also an ongoing long term programme to phase out the use of the square covers due to the difficulty and risk to personnel that exists when these covers need to be opened. The existing square covers are very heavy and require at least two men to lift them and as a result pose an injury risk to those operatives tasked with this operation, particularly as many of the covers are jammed' into the frame and require a significant effort to release them.

The decision to use the circular covers currently being installed was based on their method of opening and the fact that this could be achieved by just one operative with little risk of injury to the operative involved. These covers also incorporate a neoprene seal in the frame which will reduce the risk of the cover becoming jammed over time.

The approximate cost to replace one manhole cover in isolation is £575. However, approximately 70 manhole cover replacements included in the total given previously have been incorporated into the current road resurfacing programme which has reduced the overall unit replacement cost to approximately £465.

2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING JERSEY TELECOM'S FIBRE OPTIC EXPANSION:

Question

With regard to the Jersey Telecom (JT) fibre optic expansion, would the Minister, as the representative of the shareholder, advise Members –

1. whether this new infrastructure will result in higher prices and, if not,how it is intended JT will recoup its outlay;
2. whetherthoseJT customers whowereoffered a free trial will face an increaseof£60 a month for their broadband;
3. why the recent offer of new jobs was handled by outside consultants and at what cost;
4. how many additional people have been employed as a result of the expansion?

Answer

1. JT's price for existing broadband speeds will not change, so the current price offering of the 2/4/8/16 Mbit/s products remains the same. However, these products will be offered across a fibre network instead of a copper network which means that the qualityof the product will be far superior. The new higher speeds of 100 Mbit/s and 1 Gigabit/s are offered at £44.99 and £59.99 respectively, prices which rank at the lowest per megabit in the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development).

Based on the superior quality of the product and the phenomenal increase that telecom operators are seeing in user demands for increased download and upload speeds, JT's independent Board of Directors is confident that the investment will be recouped through the numbers of customers opting for the higher speeds. The investment also ensures that the company will continue to provide for the communication needs of a modern finance industry while providing a huge opportunity to diversify the economy with Digital Jersey.

2. The customers offered the free trail havethechoiceof remaining on whichever service they wish to. These details, as well as further information, are publically available onwww.gigabitjersey.com.
3. The recruitment programme for the "100 jobs" was run through JT working closely with theteam at the Social Security Department and the two companies that specialise in the provision of the engineering workforce for such a specialised programme of work, CH2MHill and Total Technical Solutions. As JT already uses CH2MHill onan outsourced agreement to provide JT with a flexible engineering workforce, the cost of this extra effort (which is commercially sensitive) was negotiated as an overall price to provide the services.
4. So far 75 roles have been offered to local unemployed people and, currently, we are looking to recruit a further 25 from the local labour market.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE USE OF ZERO HOURS' STAFF:

Question

Will the Minister explain the discrepancy between the response to written question 6833 (2 staff on zero-hours contract as at 31/03/12) and that given by the department to me on 30th April 2012 ("27 staff employed through temporary agencies (who) would normally use zero hour contracts to employ temporary staff")?

How does his statement that genuine zero hours contracts are necessary and appropriate' apply to his department's use of zero-hours contracts and is this "casual or irregular work" where no number of hours or times of work is specified?

How frequently will Income Support will be reviewed to ensure that the benefit is adjusted in line with actual earnings in respect of those working zero-hours?

What discussions, if any, has the Minister had with the Head of the Jersey Advisory and Conciliation Service regarding the latter's reservations concerning "non-genuine" zero hours contracts, which enable employers to avoid holiday, overtime and sickness pay?

What costs are involved in the use of temp agencies in recruiting staff to positions within his department compared with normal recruitment and were agencies required to tender?

What additional training was involved in recruiting staff (themselves unemployed) to the sensitive area of working with the unemployed?

Answer

Both answers previously given to the Deputy are correct.

The Social Security Department does employ directly 2 cleaning staff members on zero-hours contracts (Question 6833) to cover planned or unforeseen absence in the cleaning team.

The Department does also engage Recruitment Agencies to supply temporary staff to work in the Department. These temporary staff are not employed by the Department – they are employed directly by the Recruitment Agencies. Their contractual arrangements are a matter for the Recruitment Agency and the individual. Recruitment Agencies do though typically use zero hour contracts for the staff they supply to the Department. Temporary staff are used in the Department to cover short-term fluctuations in workloads or where permanent funding is uncertain.

Income Support Claimants are required to notify the Department of fluctuations in income. For claimants working sporadically on zero hour contracts then we would normally expect to be notified once every 5 weeks to ensure that benefit levels are set appropriately according to the needs of the claimant or household concerned

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING ASH FROM LA COLLETTE:

Question

Following the report compiled by Capita Symonds in April 2011 "La Collette Energy from Waste (EfW) Residues: Technical Options and Disposal Sites", what further investigation, if any, has the Department conducted into potential treatment methods for the two forms of residue from the EfW plant, Air Pollution Control residues (APC) and bottom ash?

Will the Minister outline for members what the current practice is for the treatment of both APC and bottom ash?

In light of the possible acceptance of Guernsey's waste, what new technologies, if any, have been investigated for the treatment of the more hazardous components, APC residues and, in particular, what assessment has been made on technical and cost grounds of the potential of Accelerated Carbon Technology for the treatment of Jersey (and Guernsey) APC residues?

Answer

The Planning permit for the new EFW required TTS to produce an ash strategy to set out how the residues from the plant will be dealt with. This was submitted in October 2010. The strategy described the continuation of disposal via engineered cells at La Collette and committed to a detailed review of leading practice in ash management in other jurisdictions.

This work commenced with the technical assessment by Capita Symonds and continued through 2011 including officer visits to UK facilities where IBA is being successfully recycled as a construction aggregate. The review team also visited a facility chemically treating APC and met with companies offering hi-tech solutions such as plasma-arc vitrification.

With regards to the specifics of carbonation technologies for treating APC, these are currently being assessed by the Department's technical advisors and will form part of the options assessment.

Alternatives to disposal in cells clearly exist but none of the options are immediately available. Local recycling of IBA into an aggregate requires a detailed characterisation of the material produced by the new plant which is currently being carried out. The product, once processed, is low grade in construction terms so work will be required to build confidence within the industry in accepting its use. As a government we will also need to be confident that the material is safe to use locally where our water catchments are all classified as sensitive' in environmental terms.

For APC, which is classified under European standards as hazardous', local treatment will be difficult to achieve efficiently with such low volumes. Export for treatment is an attractive option but would require permission from the receiving authority under the terms of the Basel Convention. The negotiations for this have been initiated.

There are a number of workstreams underway on this subject. Some will take time to produce the results required to inform decision making so the Department has created a roadmap' to set out a way forward and ensure ash management policy evolves effectively for our Island setting. The Environment Scrutiny panel has now commenced a review of the emerging strategy.

Current Disposal Practice Incinerator Bottom Ash (IBA)

The non-hazardous IBA generated from the new EFW plant continues to be managed within lined cells at La Collette. The cells are constructed above the Mean High Water Spring level within the site and are engineered to a high standard through a rigorous construction quality assurance process to ensure no hydraulic connectivity with the surrounding environment.

To provide further re-assurance of the integrity of this method and of historic cells, TTS has recently completed a 6 month baseline water quality monitoring survey of the site and surrounding marine waters. The results indicate that the ash cell system is doing its job. A quarterly, continuous monitoring programme is now in place to provide ongoing surveillance.

Air Pollution Control Residues (APC)

The new plant has a state-of-the-art emissions control system which collects potentially harmful substances from the exhaust gasses. These more hazardous residues form only around 20% of the ash from the plant and are collected separately in the process. APC is placed in large bags and currently placed in a high specification lined cell. The cell can provide a secure method of disposal for this material or act has a safe holding store should the ash strategy review lead to a decision being taken to export APC to off-Island treatment facilities.

In summary the Department has a reliable and tested solution in place for managing EFW residues. However with EFW now a mainstream waste technology in Western Europe alternatives for dealing with ash outputs are rapidly evolving. TTS is assessing these for technical applicability in Jersey including financial appraisals of the options.

5. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE RESURFACING OF THE AIRPORT ROAD:

Question

Will the Minister confirm that the road surface at the Airport was in better condition than expected and, if so, was the decision to resurface it justified, particularly when many roads across the Island are in a very poor condition?

What was the cost of the Airport road resurfacing contract?

What action, if any, has the Minister taken to persuade the Council of Ministers to provide extra funding to make a proper difference to the roads across the Island?

Did pressure from St. Brelade politicians influence the decision to resurface the Airport Road? Answer

The road surface along Avenue de la Reine Elizabeth II was in a poor condition and was visibly deteriorating. The funding that will be used to extend the works along Avenue de la Commune was money held in contingency against the prospect of the underlying asphalt layers being in a worse

condition than expected. Fortunately after the top surface course was planed off, these underlying layers were in better condition than expected.

The original cost of the Airport Road resurfacing project was approx £738,000 and the extended works will cost £105,000 which will be met within the overall budget allocated.

The road resurfacing budget has increased in recent years due to continued efforts from TTS to highlight the condition of the Island's road network. These budget increases have allowed TTS to carry out major resurfacing works to the following roads:

La Route de la Haule – St Brelade and St Peter

St Peter's Main Road – St Peter

Mont Fallu – St Peter

Victoria Avenue – St Lawrence and St Helier Mont Millais – St Helier

Le Mont de Ste Marie and Les Chenolles – St Mary Commercial Buildings – St Helier

La Route d'Ebenezer - Trinity

In recent months a Business Case has been developed requesting funding for additional projects to reduce the backlog of resurfacing required which is currently being considered by Treasury. TTS is hopeful that funding will be available but this is very much dependant on Treasury support and ultimately States Assembly approval.

No pressure has been exerted on the department's officers by current or previous St Brelade politicians. Decisions on which road to resurface are dependent on the road condition surveys, utility company activity and streetworks coordination.

6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE CONTRIBUTIONS SYSTEM:

Question

In the light of his predecessor's decision to increase the Social Security contributions from the self employed by 2% on earnings above the upper limit (circa £45,000), what progress, if any, has the Minister made in developing a more flexible system for contributions to replace the simplistic two contribution classes of Class 1 (employees) and Class 2 (everyone else) which has been in place since 1974?

Will the Minister bring proposals to the Assembly to modernise the Social Security contributions system to accommodate today's employment conditions and, if so, when?

Answer

In line with the agreed Fiscal Strategy Review, my Department worked extremely hard last year to develop and implement a new 2% contribution rate in respect of employers and the self-employed on earnings above the standard earnings limit.

During 2011 it was acknowledged that a number of aspects of the contribution system would need to be reviewed but that it would not be possible to address all these issues in advance of January 2012.

Given the need to concentrate on the Back To Work programme and other major projects such as the introduction of a Long-Term Care benefit and Discrimination legislation, the Department will not start work on a review of the contribution system in 2012 but this will commence during the period of the current Strategic Plan.

7. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING RENEWABLE ENERGY:

Question

Given the commitment within the Council of Ministers' Strategic Plan to position Jersey as a low carbon jurisdiction that uses resources efficiently and wisely, can the Chief Minister assure members that, with regard to energy requirements, support will not be given by the Council of Ministers to controversial schemes such as wind-farms and instead all relevant Ministers will be encouraged to give assistance where possible to schemes that harness tidal power?

Answer

The Minister for Planning and Environment holds the lead responsibility for Energy Policy and will shortly be bringing forward for consultation a Draft Energy White Paper which will cover the question of renewable energy in the context of an energy policy. In addition since 2008, a parallel work stream has been underway and led by the Renewable Energy Commission who have been providing advice to the Minister.

The Renewable Energy Commission is chaired by Constable Murphy and was mandated under MD-PE-2011-0043[1]. They recognise that the deployment of renewable energy can bring many benefits to Jersey in the long term including a sustainable source of low-carbon energy, opportunities for economic diversification and an increase in security of supply.

However, the challenge in currently deploying all forms of offshore renewables is that the power they generate will be significantly more expensive than traditional electricity or hydrocarbon fuels. This would be particularly true of tidal power since this is a technology at its very earliest stages of development and commercial arrays are still at least a decade away. But, over time the cost of renewable energy generation is likely to drop and as well, it is expected that hydrocarbon energy prices will rise significantly. Thus the feasibility of a future project of whatever renewable technology (e.g. wind, tidal stream, wave energy) can be assessed at the point at which a project is more economically feasible.

The Commission have recommended to the Minister for Planning and Environment that currently all work about renewable energy concentrates on the technology blind' steps. These include the following areas of work:

• Drafting of renewable energy legislation to ensure any future project takes full account of the environmental, health and safety and navigational risks of an installation;
• Working with the UK and EU to assess Jersey's eligibility to subsidies to generate renewable energy;
• Working with other Channel Islands to promote joint working wherever possible and to present one voice' in external negotiations (for example our work within two British Irish Council workstreams that cover renewable energy);
• Resolving issues regarding the ownership of the seabed which currently lies with the Crown in the Right of the Duchy of Normandy;
• The development of a Marine Spatial Plan to categorise the surrounding waters into areas that may or may not be suitable for renewable energy installations because of their environmental, economic and navigational sensitivity.
• Consideration of the funding models and commercial arrangements that would need to

underpin any future project.

Thus I would like to reassure the Deputy that all our current work on renewable energy does not favour any one technology over another, the Renewable Energy Commission and the Minister for Planning and Environment advise that it is not yet time for us to pick winners'. In the longer term the economic feasibility of a particular project will be considered in the context of the economic, environmental and social consequences. This future point will be the time for the Island to decide the most suitable type of installation for Jersey in the context of environmental, health and safety and navigation constraints. In the meantime, work concentrates on the enabling steps for deploying renewable energy when the conditions are right for Jersey.

8. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE FUNDING OF TOURISM DEVELOPMENT

Question

With regard to the Tourism Investment Fund, what assurances, if any, can the Minister give that future payments will be restricted to investment in tourism related activities that are likely to see a measurable benefit to the economy, rather than appearing to act as a fund of last resort for diverse projects, some of which have very tenuous connections with tourism?

Answer

I will assume that the Deputy refers to the Tourism Development Fund (TDF) in the answer to this question, which replaced the Tourism Investment Fund following a States decision in 2001 (P170/2001).

Over the last few years, we have strengthened the application and assessment procedures and moved away from consideration of applications as and when they arose to a pro-active and structured biannual application process. There are a number of ways in which these procedures ensure that awards are granted to tourism related activities that are likely to result in a measureable benefit to the economy:

• The process is led by an independent panel that is tasked with evaluating which projects will bring the most benefit to the Tourism industry. The Panel comprises of members of the private sector, some with experience within the Tourism sector; and others with broader business experience;
• The Panel scrutinise each application to evaluate the anticipated immediate and  future impact on visitor numbers or visitor experience, how sustainable the impact is likely to be and whether the project leverages others sources of funding;
• The Panel scrutinise the application material submitted by the applicant in great detail; regularly request additional information to be provided and in addition, the Panel or a Panel Member often meet with applicants for further evaluation;
• Applications for over £5,000 have to be supported by business plans; and
• When a decision is made to award a grant, contracts are issued and 5% of grants are retained until a report is delivered which illustrates how the project met its stated aims.

The Fund seeks to support projects that without a grant would be unlikely to go ahead or would be significantly less successful without the additional funds. If this is what the Deputy means by a fund of last resort', then it should be viewed in this way. If organisations have other methods of funding projects, it is not a good use of taxpayers' money to step in. That is why some very worthwhile initiatives have applied to the Fund in the past and been refused – because they have been able to run an equally successful event without the additional funding they applied for.

In the last round of applications, twenty six applications were received and only five were awarded funding – precisely because of the level of scrutiny applied. In future, we expect this level of scrutiny to continue and if the proposition to allow private sector organisations to apply to the Fund is passed by the States, additional procedures will be put in place - as referenced in the Safeguards' section of P26/2012.

9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE USE OF ZERO HOURS' STAFF BY STATES DEPARTMENTS: Question

As the response of the Chief Minister to question 6833 of 1st May 2012 revealed that the vast majority (1,127 of 1,157) of zero-hours contracts issued by States departments were in the Education and Health departments, will he seek a breakdown of the use of these contracts from the Ministers responsible to confirm that zero-hours are only used to meet genuine needs for flexibility and are not a used in cases where a fixed-term contract with defined hours and other terms and conditions would be far more appropriate, and, if so, will he undertake to report his findings to members?

Answer

States current systems do not allow for the easy analysis of individual zero hour contracts. However, zero hour contracts are used to provide flexible resources to cover various operational needs such as the absence of permanent employees due to sickness, special leave, or training.

An employee may have been deployed within numerous roles during any one month and may have provided ad-hoc cover for permanent staff absent due to sickness or special leave or training courses, or to cover a specific short term need or vacant post.

The Education, Sports and Culture Department employs individuals on zero hours contracts in four main groups: Highlands College Lecturers, Adult Education Tutors, Teaching and Non-Teaching supply. The flexibility afforded by these types of contracts is essential as it enables the Department to maintain a bank of appropriately qualified and skilled staff to meet the demands of fluctuating pupil and student numbers.

Within Health and Social Services it is essential to have flexible capacity in the workforce to provide essential services with unpredictable peaks and demands. The use of a blend of full time, part time, fixed term and zero hours contracts in Health and Social Services is considered to be appropriate and minimises the risk to patients.

The table below shows the deployment of zero hour contract staff within Education Sport and Culture and Health and Social Services during March 2012.

Employees who work for the States of Jersey on a zero hour contract provide a valuable source of flexible labour. The States of Jersey is confident that each department regularly reviews the use of zero hour contracts to ensure that they are utilised appropriately.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND  RESOURCES  REGARDINGTAX  REVENUES  FROM ZERO  RATED COMPANIES:

Question

Will the Minister assure members that he will keep his promise to bring forward in his fiscal policy for 2013, and beyond in the Medium Term Financial Plan, measures that will deal with the absence of a contribution to Jersey's tax revenues from zero-rated companies?

What lessons, if any, has he learned from the experience of Gibraltar in attempting to raise revenue from such companies without breaching European Union regulations?

Answer

The Minister remains committed to bringing forward measures to deal with the issue of non- finance, non-locally owned businesses. However, the Deputy 's question is fundamentally flawed when it states that there is an "absence of a contribution to Jersey's tax revenues from zero-rated companies". As has been stated many times, those companies which are subject to tax at 0% contribute significantly to tax revenues either through taxes and Social Security paid by individuals they employ, GST or contributing to the taxable profits of the finance industry.

In accordance with P157/2010 the Minister has committed to bring forward measures provided that to do so would not jeopardise the integrity of Jersey's business tax regime or its international competitive position'. There is a further and  very important issue to consider. The economic climate has deteriorated since that proposition was approved. Jersey is facing rising unemployment and the non-financial services industry in particular is feeling the effects. As well as ensuring Jersey's international position is protected, it is just as important that measures are not taken to worsen the employment position.

A significant amount of work has been done on this and the fact that is has taken so long to deal with illustrates that this is not a simple issue and there is no perfect solution.

Members will be fully briefed on this issue before the Budget debate. A report will be issued in the summer and proposals will be brought forward in the Budget Statement.

The Deputy rightly mentions the recent Gibraltar case. This highlights two issues. Firstly that the international world is constantly changing and Jersey needs to act accordingly. Secondly, assuming the Code of Conduct Group takes a similar position as that taken by the European Court of Justice, it will not be possible to tax the majority of companies in Jersey and maintain a compliant regime.

Jersey chose to implement zero/ten as that was in its best interests to protect its economy. It more recently chose to maintain zero/ten for the same reason. No action will be taken to jeopardise that position. Similarly no action will be taken which jeopardises employment when the economy is so fragile.

11. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE MODERNISATION OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR:

Question

Given the Council of Ministers' aim to create a better structured and more efficient public sector, would the Chief Minister describe the mechanisms by which he hopes to achieve this and give an indication of the timescale involved?

Answer

The challenge of Public sector reform is one of the most significant issues faced by the government of Jersey in the coming decade. It will provide an opportunity for a fundamental reappraisal of how public services are provided to our citizens in a manner which is both cost effective and focussed on service outcomes and delivery.

It is in the early stages but the approach is to concentrate on Service redesign, Cultural change and Workforce modernisation.

If this programme, which involves large numbers of people and significant changes, is to be successful, it must be supported by strong leadership, adequate resources (in terms of people and funding) and appropriate scheduling.

Such a significant programme of reform will take time to ensure it is both enduring and sustainable. Hence, it is anticipated that the changes will occur during the next six years in such a way that allows the change to be embedded without disruption to the services the public expect.

2. Oral Questions

1. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding the reasons for differences in the salary ranges advertised for public sector positions:

Will the Chief Minister detail the reasons for the considerable differences in salary ranges being advertised for public sector positions, with some recent examples indicating a £30,000 difference between the minimum and maximum salary available, another with a £20,000 range and another at over £10,000 difference?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

There are sometimes considerable differences in the advertised salary ranges for public sector positions because the employer does not wish to limit the number or type of people who might apply for the posts on offer. A difference between the minimum and maximum salary available will take into consideration the need to attract either a candidate who can grow into the position and develop the necessary experience, knowledge and skills working in the role while also not putting off a candidate who already has the requisite skills to undertake the role successfully.

1. The Connétable of St. Martin :

Can the Chief Minister advise the Assembly who decides the grade or indeed the commencement salary to be offered to the successful candidate following the interview?

[9:45]

Senator I.J. Gorst :

That will be, as I tried to indicate, decided in line with the experience and skills that the person who is offered the job has and therefore they will be slotted into what is, some might say, a rather structured salary banding range.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Would the Chief Minister acknowledge that some of the salary ranges are attempts to emulate business sector practice without the disciplines of the business sector?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Not in this instance, no I would not. Sometimes that does happen and it is something that we must guard against. But, for example, the first difference which the Connétable raised was to do with a consultant and it quite clearly, while £30,000 seems a large differential, could be a newly-qualified specialist which is appropriate to appoint to the job or it could be a specialist which has been in post for 10 years, fully qualified and experienced and therefore the banding has to allow for either of those 2 eventualities.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Does the Chief Minister think that there should be a relationship between the highest and lowest salaries and that salaries of senior civil servants should not exceed over a certain figure because of the disproportionate higher salaries?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

While it is in interesting question, I am not sure it arises out of this question, which is a salary band for a sole job. Having said that, of course, there has been much publicity around the salary ranges for senior staff members and the States Employment Board is undertaking a piece of work to ensure that the salaries at the highest levels are appropriate, but also that there is a proper performance management process in place to ensure that where salaries which might be considered to be large are offered, they are appropriately monitored, reviewed and to ensure that the taxpayer is getting good value for money.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given the public concern and given the recent U.K. (United Kingdom) move to reduce the numbers of exceptionally high salary earners in local government, because of the feeling that the results were never obtained that were promised. Would the Chief Minister outline how many of the salaries have indeed been revised as a result of this intensive monitoring to which he has just referred?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I did not refer to intensive monitoring; I referred to a piece of work the States Employment Board has instructed to be undertaken. Once that has been undertaken then I will be in a position to answer his question more fully.

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Is the Chief Minister aware of research carried out by everyone's favourite economist, Ha-Joon Chang, that demonstrates that inflated salaries do not lead to better performance and is that considered when we have these quite wide differences on salary bands?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I said in answer to an earlier question, performance monitoring is absolutely critical. There is no point appointing someone to a job and offering a large salary if there is no way of monitoring to ensure that the performance that is expected for that salary is being delivered.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a Human Rights Audit of the Department's Laws, Regulations, Orders, Guidance Notes and Procedures before the introduction of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law 2000:

Will the Minister explain whether or not the Planning Department conducted a human rights audit of the Laws, Regulations, Orders, Guidance notes and Procedures before the introduction of the Human Rights (Jersey) Law 2000; detail on what dates these documents and procedures have been reviewed since then and advise whether he will publish the policy in force as of 26th November 2010, and, if not, why not?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

To the best of my knowledge, I am told that some audits were carried out in preparation for the Human Rights (Jersey) Law in 2000. As the Deputy knows, Article 16 of this law places a mandatory statutory requirement on all Ministers to make a statement of compatibility when legislation is lodged au Greffe. All projets of law, therefore, since the introduction of the Human Rights Law are vetted for human rights compliance by the Law officers prior to lodging and it is only after considering that specific advice that Ministers are able to sign a compatibility statement. I will publish the policies in force as at 26th November and will do that in due course. If there are any convention rights that the Deputy believes are challenged by my department, I will be grateful if he would draw them to my attention and seek either his own advice from the Law officers or bang on my door.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I do not wish to encourage you, Minister or Deputy Higgins, but that last part is going to arise out of question 15. This question is only about the audit that was or was not conducted some time ago, whether the procedures have been renewed and whether the policy will be published and you said it would. Deputy Higgins?

2.2.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Yes, I will come to the question of whether they are following procedures later. The point I am trying to make here and I have been asking repeated written questions and I have been told that the matter has been referred to the Law officers, what I have been trying to find out is whether an audit was carried out. Now, we have been told, to the best of the Minister's knowledge that some audits have been carried out. Will he please advise the House what audits were carried out and what was not carried out and what does he also mean by "due course"?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I mean that the advice will be published as soon as I am able to do it. In reply to a written question and an oral question at a previous occasion, I did say that I was waiting for some further advice from other departments and until that advice was forthcoming, I was not in a position to publish. When that advice is available to me, I will publish it as soon as is possible.

3. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the retirement package for the Consultant of Obstetrics and Gynaecology who retired in March 2012:

Would the Minister detail the retirement package which the consultant for Obstetrics and Gynaecology received when he retired in March 2012?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The consultant retired in line with normal hospital practice. Prior to retirement, the States Employment Board resolved an outstanding legal claim from the consultant. A settlement, totalling £448,000 was reached in relation to the net losses suffered by him, including in relation to loss of private income. It also included a contribution to his re-training and legal costs. So it is hoped that we can now place these sad events behind us.

1. The Connétable of St. John :

I have deep concerns as to how the hospital managed to keep out of work one of the most gifted and eminent surgeons for over 5 years at great cost to us all on the basis of fact or process. What is the cost to the taxpayer and the Island, excluding the package that we have just been told about?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Let me be clear, it was not a package, as the Connétable is referring to; it was the settlement or the resolving of an outstanding legal claim from the consultant. However, the Connétable is absolutely right, that is only part of the picture. It is my understanding that the cost of the period of time from 2006 until retirement is in the area of £2.5 million. That does not include the settling of this claim.

2. The Connétable of St. John :

The Minister has said that the investigation against the consultant [name omitted in accordance with Standing Order 160(3A)] was found in his favour, including the huge personal damage to the consultant's reputation and his family as well as the huge cost to the Jersey taxpayer. Has the Minister got an explanation? Was the problem caused by envy from fellow members within the department or senior management of the hospital, and has any discipline or dismissal of senior staff within the hospital taken place? Will there be a further report following the previous one?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

There were a number of questions there, I shall endeavour to pick them up and answer them where I can. The Connétable will be aware that this extremely sad and distressing incident happened a number of years ago and the management at the hospital is no longer the same. The Minister in charge of the department is no longer the same. There have been a number of reviews around hospital practice and performance. I think the review that dealt with this particular suspension case was the GoodwinHannah review. The Connétable will know that the hospital has implemented many changes in light of the recommendations of that review. There are still some which are required to be undertaken. I think that Members will acknowledge, as the Council of Ministers acknowledge, that this is one of the reasons why reforming the Health Service and the Social Services is a top priority of this Government and this Assembly over the next 3 years. We propose to invest in the hospital. We propose to improve the delivery of health care to all members of our community.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Is it correct that the consultant's personnel file now contains a note absolving the consultant of blame in the particular case?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am sure that Members would not expect me to have sight of individual staff members' personnel files and therefore I cannot answer that question.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

When the Chief Minister mentioned that there is new management, can he outline some of the steps that have been taken to avoid repetition of the situation?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Question time is never a good place to go into detail, but as I tried to indicate, if the Deputy were to look at the conclusions and recommendations of the GoodwinHannah report, he would be able to see that those issues have been done or are being addressed and, of course, one of the critical improvements is the memorandum of understanding which takes places across agencies to ensure that these incidents, we hope, will not occur again.

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

You might rule this as too wide of the mark, but because Verita was quite a long time ago, can the Chief Minister just clarify for me, with all this debate, is it correct that the consultant was not in the hospital at the time when his patient did sadly pass away?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

These, as I have said, extremely sad incidents occurred in 2006. I was not involved at that time and cannot easily bring back to memory exactly the details of all the cases, but if memory serves, I understand that the consultant was not present at the hospital at the time of the incident but that is from my own memory. I cannot be more definite than that.

6. The Connétable of St. John :

Over many months and years in researching this case, I spoke to the consultant on a number of occasions. Is the Minister now telling the House that the case is now closed?

As the Connétable knows, the consultant has now retired. The States Employment Board, I believe, absolutely appropriately resolved the outstanding legal claim. The hospital is moving forward, as I have said, there is new management and there is a new Minister. We are coming forward with prioritising improvements and transforming the healthcare delivery to all members of our community and we will be proposing to put considerable investment into the Health and Social Services over the course of the next number of years. It was an extremely difficult and sad incident and I hope that we can now start to move on.

[10:00]

4. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the source of the compensation to be paid to the victims of historical chid abuse:

Could the Chief Minister confirm whether any compensation paid to the victims of historical child abuse will come directly from an insurance fund rather than from the public purse?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The funds to be paid to victims of historic child abuse will initially come from reserves held by the States. The process of addressing the historic child abuse claims is at an early stage and I cannot give details at the present time over the exact financing of those claims, but intend to do so at their conclusion.

1. Deputy S. Pitman:

Could the Minister confirm that the compensation will not be just for those abused at Haut de la Garenne and that it will include care leavers from other parts of the institution?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes, I can. If any Member wishes to have their mind refreshed about the terms of the scheme, then either they can contact me and I will forward the detail on to them or they are available online as well.

2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

The Chief Minister said they would come initially from reserves of the States, will he state which reserves they will come from initially and the word "initially" obviously implies that somehow they will be replenished. So, after that, what is the course of action that is intended to be taken to reimburse that money?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

My understanding, and I look to the Minister for Treasury and Resources to nod or not accordingly, is that initially they will be coming from contingencies. Of course, the question asked of me in regard to insurance, as one would expect the States does have insurance policies, but equally, as one would expect, insurance companies require confidentiality because they do not want to give rise to claims elsewhere in other jurisdictions that they might also insure.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I have asked this question before and I would like to know what the follow-up is now. Will the Minister advise whether those abuse victims who are experiencing financial hardship are being allowed to have some money in advance of the payment or is there some mechanism to assist them? Some of them are in desperate economic circumstances.

The redress scheme is now open and operational. I think, as I answered the Deputy last time, that we were indeed, at that point, very close to announcing the redress scheme. It is now operational. Obviously I do not have the details at this stage, as you would not expect me to because it is out of the political arena but if the Deputy knows of anyone who is suffering, then they should make a claim to the scheme right now.

4. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Could the Chief Minister advise, and I know he gets asked this regularly, but perhaps if we had some news when will this Committee of Inquiry finally take place because it does seem that even an Electoral Commission can be rushed ahead but this is something very important and it just seems to drag on and on and on.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Sorry, I disallow that question. It does not arise out of the question which has been given. Any further supplementary questions? Deputy Tadier ?

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

Would the Chief Minister advise or remind Members what the overall budget roughly is for compensation and how it compares to the budget for the Committee of Inquiry?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

That is a very difficult question to answer. When we launched the scheme, I suggested that there were around 100 people who had asked for subject access requests, which might indicate that there was that number of people who would be making claims. Of course, those claims will then have to be allocated a band and payments made in line with that. So, to some extent, the total amount would be determined by the number of people claiming and the band at which they are entitled to receive a payment.

6. Deputy S. Pitman:

What consultation took place with care leavers informing this compensation scheme and what were the views held by them?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

There was indeed consultation with the care leavers, undertaken by the Health and Social Services Department. I believe that they did an excellent job and they should be congratulated for this piece of work. There was also consultation undertaken with the legal representatives of many who I expect will be making a claim under this scheme, not only in Jersey but in the United Kingdom as well.

Deputy S. Pitman:

The Chief Minister has not answered the second part of my question which was does he know what the views were of the care leavers on this scheme?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As far as I am aware, they are indeed supportive of it, unless the Deputy is going to tell me something different, that is my understanding.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding a comparisonof figures for elective surgery between the firstquarterof2012 and the first quarter of 2008:

Will the Minister inform Members how the figures for elective surgery compare for the first quarter of 2012 and the first quarter 2008 in respect of the number of operations performed, the number on the waiting list and waiting times and explain any marked differences these reveal?

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

In order to answer this question, I must refer to some information which I sent to States Members earlier this morning. The information circulated shows that 179 more elective procedures were undertaken in the first quarter of 2012 than in 2008, yet there are 396 more people on the waiting list than in 2008. It also shows that 15 per cent of those on the waiting list in 2012 have waited more than 3 months, compared to 7 per cent in 2008. In other words, we are undertaking more procedures but our waiting lists are growing. This is in line with a trend of increased demand across Health and Social Services and as we know, we are an ageing society and this trend, I am sure, will continue.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister believe that these figures reveal that she is maintaining frontline services for, in this case, elective surgery?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, it does. But I think it does show increasing demand and, as I said, we are an ageing society and there are challenges ahead and we need to look at the way we are doing this and see if we can be more effective. That is part of the White Paper, which will come out later this month.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Has the hospital looked at the reasons for the demand and analysed them? Is it the result of an increased population or what?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Over the last few months, Health and Social Services have raised different issues; it is not just one thing. It is several things. We are an ageing society, we are living longer, therefore we need more hip replacements, knee replacements, and also we offer a very hospitalised service. If we can put more care in the community, people might be discharged that little bit earlier or in fact not even need to come into the hospital, which in turn will release more beds.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Does this mean that a proper analytical review has not been done of the reasons for the increase in demand?

The Deputy of Trinity :

If I mention to the Senator, KPMG did an awful lot of work and there is a 700-page evaluation of all Health and Social Services and it is in there.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Yes, but the actual demographic analysis has not been done in that report. Have the Health Department done that?

The Deputy of Trinity :

If she is asking for a specific piece of work it would be good if she could tell me what piece of work she is asking for and I will see if we have got it.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think the question is whether or not a demographic analysis has been done of those who have been taking elective surgery in 2012 compared with 2008?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I am not too sure of that. I will look into that and come back to her.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Notwithstanding the excellence of some of the KPMG work, would the Minister indicate whether or not her department has looked at the Guernsey scheme where a lot of the work is contracted out to a surgical group in order to deal, much better it seems than we do, with the peaks and troughs of operations so that we do not have these massive waiting lists and we do not build up, with all the associated costs, a massive cadre of surgeons on the Island.

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, we did look at Guernsey and we continue to look at how we can work with Guernsey. Guernsey has a totally different health system to us. That is just how it has evolved. Regarding waiting lists, as I said, it is always a challenge and that is part of what is in the White Paper, going forward. But we are an ageing society and where, if I just take hip and knee replacements, we are living longer, so those replacements will need to be replaced and we are looking at more consultants doing contractor services, to bring them over to do some pieces of work once or twice a month or whatever.

6. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Is the Minister aware whether the public waiting lists are being affected by the loss of tax relief on private health insurance?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Not that I am aware of.

7. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

The Minister has made various claims about the ageing population as the reason behind the increase in elective surgery. Could the Minister provide this Assembly with evidence that indeed that is the case?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Proper evidence has already been supplied with the KPMG executive summary but also all of the analysis behind it.

8. The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I did ask specifically for a particular analysis to support the evidence that we are facing the issue of an ageing population and it directly resulting in the increases as described by the Minister. I do not and have not required the whole KPMG report or any other analysis that they have undertaken.

The Deputy of Trinity :

That is a similar to question to what the Senator asked and I will ensure that is given to you too.

9. Deputy G.P. Southern :

It is a 2-part question. Will the Minister explain to Members to what extent the increase in both the waiting list and waiting list times is due to staffing problems in the department and in particular, what measures does she have under consideration to bring these  increased waiting times and numbers down?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As you see, the numbers have increased but if you look at the figures in 2010, there was a huge increase in the waiting times. I would also like to stress that, if it were an emergency operation, there would be no waiting times. Regarding the staff challenges, they continue to be a challenge and will always be a challenge, but we try hard with the consultants to bring down those waiting list times and if it means extra clinics, we will do that from time to time. Extra appointments in outpatients, obviously, have a knock-on effect to people needing more theatre time too.

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Chief Minister regarding the re- introduction of the States Loan Scheme:

Could the Chief Minister advise whether the Council of Ministers intends to re-introduce the States loan scheme as a matter of urgency in order to assist homebuyers if banks are less inclined to loan?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The Council of Ministers have outlined in the Strategic Plan and the Achieving Decent Homes White Paper that achieving decent and affordable housing is an urgent priority. The Council intends to produce a housing strategy to support these objectives. Tools such as shared ownership schemes and deposit schemes are being considered.

[10:15]

The Minister for Housing and the Minister for Treasury and Resources intend to jointly announce a possible deposit scheme in the medium-term financial plan.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

It does sound to me that the Council Ministers have the best intentions but it could be some time before anything really happens. Is it not the case that the States Loan Scheme could be introduced almost immediately? After all, it did expire, if that is the right term, simply because it had got out of kilter with the bank's interest rates at that time and became less popular. Now it is the other way around. The case is today even millionaires with collateral cannot seem to get a £10,000 bridging loan.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I could not possibly comment on millionaires with collateral and their ability to secure bridging loans. Perhaps he needs to advise his parishioner, whoever it may be, to change financial institutions. The Deputy raised a very pertinent point about speed, which is why I indicated that I believe it is the intention of the Minister for Housing and the Minister for Treasury and Resources to come forward with a scheme in the medium-term financial plan. It would of course therefore need to be, in effect, approved and this Assembly give it support and that is not acting slowly. It is acting extremely quickly. If we understand what is happening in the housing market, it does appear that financial institutions are prepared to lend. The problem is the loan to value ratio and therefore, a deposit scheme should alleviate that problem.

2. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

What I would like to know and I think the Chief Minister has probably indicated his feelings on this, does he agree with me that the States Loan Scheme should never have been abandoned because it was a great incentive and assistance to many local people and with the benefit of hindsight it would have been better if we were not where we are today?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I try not to indulge in the benefit of hindsight. We, as a previous occupant of this post, used to say: "We are where we are." We need to understand the problem in the marketplace and bring forward measures to deal with that and I believe that such a scheme as I have outlined will do that.

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Would those initiatives include controlling the actual value of land because that is the key to everything really? Would the Minister not agree?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Price control is a very difficult area and has many unintended consequences and it is not something that I would wish to encourage.

4. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister confirm that the proposals under consideration are going to be focused on assisting first-time buyers to return back to the market?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It will be a scheme that is brought forward by the Minister for Housing and the Minister for Treasury and Resources but I believe that is their intention.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I made the comment about wealthy people unable to obtain even small loans as part of their collateral simply because it seems to indicate that was an actual case. It tends to indicate that the banks are unwilling to loan. Will the Chief Minister agree with me that in fact the banks are increasingly reluctant to loan and therefore, this scheme to assist homebuyers is in fact a priority?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The scheme is a priority. Perhaps, in the strange economic world in which we now live I might say a word in defence of bankers. Banks are being asked to strengthen their balance sheet and capital requirements and yet at the same time, politicians the world over are expecting them to loan and ease the credit market. It is difficult to say that in Jersey banks are not prepared to lend. The problem appears to be, as I said right at the start, the loan to value issue and if we can bring forward a scheme that deals with that concern then I believe that we can alleviate the credit market in that respect.

7. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the H.M Attorney General regarding potential conflicts of interest within the judicial system:

Given the small size of Jersey's community, what checks and balances, if any, are in place within our justice system to ensure that no conflict of interest arises or that a fair hearing is compromised due to those sitting in judgment having close past links through the practice or friendship.

Mr. T.J. Le Cocq Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:

The principal check on possible judicial bias or lack of independence in Jersey or elsewhere is the high standards of integrity of the judges and other persons acting in a judicial capacity, but in addition to that, a party to any judicial proceedings has a right to challenge the judge or the presiding person if a lack of independence, real or apparent, is suspected. All courts and tribunals

in Jersey, whether criminal or civil, are public authorities and are obliged to conform to Article 6 of the E.C.H.R. (European Convention on Human Rights) which guarantees the right to a fair trial. Furthermore, every member of the judiciary subscribes to a code of conduct which at paragraph 15 states that: "They shall not sit in a case where they have a financial or other interest or where the circumstances are such that a fair-minded and informed observer, having considered the given facts, would conclude that there was a real possibility that the member was biased." In all other cases, they are bound not to abstain from their duty to sit. If a judge and I include Jurats, has a financial or other interest in the outcome of a case, he will disqualify himself and decline to sit to determine that outcome. Similarly, if in his view, a fair-minded and informed observer would conclude that there was a real possibility that the judge was biased, he will also disqualify himself. As I mentioned, any party has the right to apply to a judge to disqualify himself and the judge will consider that application by applying the correct legal tests. If the judge declines to disqualify himself, then that decision can be challenged in the case of a judge at the Royal Court by an appeal to the Court of Appeal.

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Obviously, I am not aiming this at anyone in particular, but I have to ask the Attorney General. Am I right in thinking that a scenario could not happen, or would not happen, where perhaps a commissioner or a judge is overseeing a case with a background in one company? Perhaps the Attorney General, but certainly not the present one, would have a background in that former company and then perhaps even a Jurat or perhaps their spouse could be from that company. What I am trying to explain is that I am sure the Attorney General would agree justice has to be seen to be done as well as be done. Would that sort of scenario be avoided?

The Attorney General:

Relationships, either past or present, professional relationships or friendships between judges themselves or between judges and counsel, in cases they are presiding over or considering on appeal, has never been viewed as affecting the independence or impartiality of the court. They do not amount to a conflict or any suggestion of bias. Judges and counsel are expected to fulfil their oaths of office and exercise their functions of Ministers of Justice impartially and professionally. Relationships such as the one that the Deputy has suggested would not amount to a personal interest in the outcome of the case. In fact, that matter was considered by the Royal Court and the Court of Appeal in the case of The Attorney General v Barra in the Royal Court. The Court said: "There is no doubt that in every jurisdiction judges are closely acquainted with counsel and indeed, with appellate judges who sit in judgment upon their decisions at first instance. None of these relationships affect in the generality the independence or impartiality of the Court." The Court of Appeal upheld the judge's decision not to recuse himself in those circumstances.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

How often are fair-minded and informed observers called upon in order to decide on whether there is a conflict?

The Attorney General:

The use of the formula, a fair-minded observer, is a reference to the test that a judge applies when he, himself, considers whether or not he should disqualify himself from presiding over a case. If he is wrong and if a party feels that they have suffered an injustice as a result, it is open to the party, if they have applied to the judge to recuse himself and he refuses, to appeal to the Court of Appeal. The Court of Appeal will, itself, apply the fair-minded and reasonable person test.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

In other words, the Attorney General is saying that the judge uses this as a mental exercise. He creates in his mind a fair-minded and informed observer for himself and then applies the test in his own way although that can be challenged subsequently.

The Attorney General:

As I mentioned, the reference to a fair-minded person is the reference to the standard that the judge measures any perception of conflict against. That standard has been defined within case law and it has a more refined definition and I have used the simple formulated expression of it. For example, the individual that one would refer theoretically against would be reasonable. He would not be unduly suspicious. He would not be unduly naïve. He would be fully aware of all the material facts including the oath that the judge takes and the training that judges get and also, the legal obligations on the judge under Article 6 of the E.C.H.R. There are a number of different factors that go up to make the composite of the fair-minded in a reasonable individual and it would not be possible in the context of an answer to an oral question to give a full explanation.

4. Deputy J.H. Young:

The Attorney General referred to both courts and tribunals and the training for achieving fair hearings. Is the Attorney General able to confirm that all those people sitting in judgment receive training and follow the Codes of Practice that apply in the United Kingdom published by the Judicial Studies Board particularly for tribunals?

The Attorney General:

It is my understanding that all judges of the Royal Court undertake proper training. I cannot talk to the training, if any, that is undertaken by members of tribunals in general.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I would like to thank the Attorney General for his explanations which are very interesting. It has also brought to mind something that has been referred to me. Because of my interest in the legal profession, I have had many people come to me with different matters. One was the fact that a judge in a divorce case denied knowledge of this woman's husband but then it turned out that he knew him rather more closely than he had indicated. What is the remedy for this particular person in those circumstances because it appears that he denied initially having any major contact with him but papers came to light later which appeared to show that he did have a much closer relationship?

The Attorney General:

As I mentioned, if the judge should have recused himself and failed to do so, then that decision can be reviewed by an application to the Court of Appeal. If there is no appeal as such because the judge has not made a decision, an application may be made, I think, to the Royal Court or to the Court of Appeal again to review the matter on the grounds that the judge should have disqualified himself.

6. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Obviously, the person concerned does have no means to bring an action before the Court of Appeal. How can a person challenge the situation if they do not have the funds to be able to do so?

The Attorney General:

In Jersey there is a legal aid system, a tour de rôle and in the event that there is a proper legal basis for a claim and the person cannot afford to bring that claim, then that claim should be brought on their behalf by a legal representative appointed under the tour de role.

7. Deputy J.H. Young:

If I may follow up the Attorney General's answer. Is it not correct that for a person to succeed in bringing an appeal under legal aid they would need to have a greater than 50 per cent chance of success in their case?

The Attorney General:

I am unable to answer that question. I am not sure if there is a de facto percentage applied when legal aid is allocated. I would have to make inquiries to find out the answer to that.

8. Deputy T.M. Pitman

Deputy Higgins really asked my question. I thank the Attorney General for his answers but I think we have to remember that people in the legal profession are human too. Perhaps he agrees that I am sure Sir Alex Ferguson would say he could quite conveniently put his feelings aside and referee the Manchester derby but I think most people would not agree. My other question goes to the Jurat side and with the jury system; obviously the recruiting and vetting process is quite long and intricate. How is that replicated in Jersey with the Jurat system? Is it the same process?