States Meeting Transcript - 25th September 2012

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 25th SEPTEMBER 2012

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

1. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING BENEFITS ASSOCIATED WITH THE GRANT TO THE JERSEY RUGBY CLUB:..........................................................7
   2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN ISSUES BY THE FORMER COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL AND FORMER INTERIM TREASURER: ..........................................................................7
   3. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE MOVEMENT AND REMOVAL OF SEAWEED FROM THE ISLAND'S BEACHES:................8
   4. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING BACKGROUND CHECKS ON OFF-ISLAND COMPANIES AWARDED CONTRACTS FOR CAPITAL PROJECTS: ..................................................................8
   5. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE ELECTION OF JURATS:..........................................9
   6. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE IMPACT, IN TERMS OF NEGATIVE EQUITY, OF THE LOSS OF THE FINANCE INDUSTRY IN JERSEY:........................10
   7. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING POLICY CHANGES IN RESPONSE TO CHILD ABUSE ALLEGATIONS:.....................................................11
   8. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE WAY IN WHICH CUSTODIAL SENTENCES ARISING FROM CHILD ABUSE CASES WERE DETERMINED:......................................11
   9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING THE TEACHING OF MODERN FOREIGN LANGUAGES IN JERSEY SCHOOLS:...............................................12
   10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING ECONOMIC GROWTH FORECASTS:..........13
   11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE EFFECT OF ECONOMIC GROWTH ON POPULATION LEVELS:...............................................................................14
   12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ECONOMIC BASIS FOR THE INCREASE

IN PERSONAL TAX YIELDS AND THE REASONS FOR CERTAIN DEPARTMENTAL UNDERSPENDS FOR 2012:.....................................14

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................16

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade to the Minister for Social Security regarding access to Income Support for mature students:....................................................16 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................16

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................17
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................17
3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................17
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18
5. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................18

6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................18
7. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................18
8. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John : ....................................................19
9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................19
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................19
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................19

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the managed print service tender process:............................................................20 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................20

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................20
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................21

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson..................................................................21
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................21

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................22
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................22

3. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding alternative payments to bring pension increases for 2012 and 2013 closer in line with the cost of living:..................................................................................23 Senator F. du H Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................23

1. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................23
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
3. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................24
4. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................24
5. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................25
6. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................25

4. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding matters under discussion at the Liberal Democrat Conference by the Assistant Chief Minister:.........................25 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................25

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................25
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................26
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................26
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................26
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................27

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the transfer of current employees of Connex to the new bus service provider CT Plus:.....27 Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): .....27

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................28
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
   6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding further investigations into the fatal crash on St Clement's Coast Road:.................29 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................29

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................29
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................30
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................30
4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................30
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................31
6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................31
   7. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding staff conditions on the Condor Ferries route from Portsmouth: .........................32 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................32

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................32
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................33
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................33
5. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................33
6. The Connétable of St.John:............................................................34
7. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................34
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................34
9. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................34

8. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the proposed listing of private gardens:......................................35 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................35

1. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................35
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................36
3. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................36
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................36
5. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................37

9. Deputy R.J. Rondel of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the loan agreed for the Parish of Trinity to provide affordable' homes: ................................37 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):.............................................................................38

1. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................38
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................39

10. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the President of the Chairman's Committee regarding an investigation by Scrutiny into the establishment of a media ombudsman: ..............40 Deputy T.A. Vallois (President of the Chairman's Committee):..............................40

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................40
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................40
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................41
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................41

11. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the safeguarding of employment rights during the transfer of Connex employees to the new bus service provider CT Plus. 42

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................42

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Chief Minister regarding an extension of the time limit for the submission of applications under the Historic Abuse Redress Scheme: .............43 Senator I.J. Gorst :............................................................................43

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................43
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................44
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................44
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................44

13. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the proposed new charging system for Sand Street car park:............................45 Deputy K.C. Lewis (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):....................45

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................45
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
4. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................46
5. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................47
6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................47

3. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Housing....................47

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48 Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier (The Minister for Housing):..............................48

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48
   2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................48
   3. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................49
   4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

3.4.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

5. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................50
6. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................50
7. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................50
8. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................50

3.8.1 The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................51

9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................51

3.9.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................51

10. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

3.10.1 Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................51

11. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52
12. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................52

3.12.1 Deputy S. Power:....................................................................52

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Planning and Environment ...........................................................................................52

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................52 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................52

4.1.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................53

2. The Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................53

4.2.1 The Deputy G.P. Southern :.............................................................54

3. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement : ........................................................54
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................54
5. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................55
6. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................56

4.6.1 The Connétable of St. John:............................................................56 Deputy T.A. Vallois:..........................................................................57

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................57

5. Draft Taxation (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulation 201- (P.74/2012).....57

5.1 Senator I.J. Gorst (Chief Minister):.....................................................57

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................58
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................58
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................58
4. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................58
5. Mr. H. Sharp Q.C., H.M. Solicitor General:............................................58

6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................59
7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................59
8. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................60

6. Draft Banking Business (Depositors Compensation) (Amendment and Miscellaneous Provision) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.78/2012).......................................62

6.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................62

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................63
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................63
3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................63
4. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................63
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................64
6. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................64
7. The Solicitor General:..................................................................65
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................66
9. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................66
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................67
11. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..........................................................68
12. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................68

7. Draft Banking (Depositors Compensation Supplementary Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.77/2012)............................................................68

7.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................69

1. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................69
2. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................69

8. Draft Banking Business (Amendment No. 8) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.76/2012)..........70

8.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................70

1. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................70
2. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................71

9. Draft Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Amendment No. 6) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.79/2012)....71

9.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................71

1. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................72
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................72
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................73
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................73
5. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................74
6. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................74 Deputy T.A. Vallois:..........................................................................76

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................76

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1.1.  THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING BENEFITS ASSOCIATED WITH THE GRANT TO THE JERSEY RUGBY CLUB:

Question

Were any benefits, such as free dining at home matches, agreed when the £75,000 grant was made to the Jersey Rugby Club and, if so, who will enjoy such hospitality at the taxpayers' expense?

Answer

For the purposes of clarification, the £75,000 the Connétable refers to relates to a sponsorship initiative, not a grant. As is standard practise when entering into a sponsorship initiative, the sponsor gains benefits in return for financial support. In this case, the benefits accrued are significant marketing opportunities for both Jersey Tourism and Locate Jersey to bolster tourism in the off-season and to provide an exploitable platform for attracting inward investment and high net worth individuals.

The marketing opportunities secured through this sponsorship include the potential for a table at home matches. This will be used by Locate Jersey for business development purposes to exploit potential investment opportunities. A Departmental policy has been put in place so that there is a maximum of two hosts per table of ten, with the remainder being investors or potential investors. Local intermediaries will only be included in any corporate hospitality opportunity if they are accompanied by a potential investor.

2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN ISSUES BY THE FORMER COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL AND FORMER INTERIM TREASURER:

Question

Following the Chief Minister's statement on 10th July 2012 that he and the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee were "in the process of writing to the former Comptroller and Auditor General and to the former Interim Treasurer for further clarification of issues", would he update members as to the progress to date and agree to make available to members the details of that clarification?

In his e-mail circulated to all States members on 25th June 2012, the former Interim Treasurer stated "I'm informed that sections from your report are being quoted for political purposes" can the Chief Minister now tell us as a result of his research by whom the Interim Treasurer was informed' - and when - or, if not, will he find the answer and communicate it to members?

Answer

A joint letter from the Chief Minister and the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) has been sent to the former Comptroller and Auditor General and the former Interim Treasurer requesting further information and clarification on the issues raised. As soon as both responses are received I shall arrange to review them with the Chair of PAC, and a position will then be taken and communicated to States Members.

I am advised that the Minister for Treasury and Resources contacted the former Interim Treasurer on 13th June 2012 to clarify the accuracy of aspects of the former  Comptroller and  Auditor General's report attributed to the former Interim Treasurer, which would seem to be a reasonable course of action given concerns regarding the Report's accuracy.

3. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE MOVEMENT AND REMOVAL OF SEAWEED FROM THE ISLAND'S BEACHES:

Question

Does the Minister consider that, in most instances, moving seaweed from the high water mark to lower down the beach serves little purpose and, if so, why does his Department continue doing it?

What alternative processes, if any, is he currently considering for dealing with beach seaweed and does that include incineration?

Answer

The Department's cleaning regime is such that seaweed is normally only cleaned after a spring tide' so each day the high tide mark is lower than the day before, reducing the result of newly deposited seaweed at the top of the beach. The Department only does this type of seaweed removal when it is absolutely necessarily and then only for the top' of the beach.

The degree of effectiveness of moving the seaweed down to the low water line is, to a large extent, dependant on the tides and weather. It is not possible to say how much of the seaweed deposited at low tide actually comes back up the beach but some inevitably does return. However, if the seaweed is left too long at the top of the beach, especially in warm weather, it starts to smell and rot and by reintroducing it into the sea it seems to refresh it and reduces the problem.

Due to the exceptional amount of seaweed that was deposited on the shore this summer, I have tasked Officers with reviewing the existing beach cleaning operation and look at alternative options for dealing with seaweed in 2013. This report is due to be completed by the end of 2012.

With regards to incineration it is unlikely that this will be viable option due to the fact that in order to process the seaweed in the EFW it would need to be dried, and the sand removed, and could only be taken in very small quantities and mixed with higher calorific value material as seaweed itself is mostly water so will have a very low calorific value. If too much seaweed was sent to the EFW there is a risk of difficulties in maintaining proper combustion which could lead to emission breaches, loss of electrical production and increase of fuel oil and chemical usage.

4. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING BACKGROUND CHECKS ON OFF-ISLAND COMPANIES AWARDED CONTRACTS FOR CAPITAL PROJECTS:

Question

Will the Minister advise what background checks, if any, are carried out on off-Island companies before awarding contracts for capital projects, in order to be satisfied that the company concerned is a suitable choice?

Are enquiries made of people in the area in which such companies either reside or operate of the standing of these companies and, if not, why not?

Answer

The States of Jersey Accounting Manual has eight parts each of which consists of Financial Directions and/or other guidance documents. These Financial Directions provide mandatory requirements for the purchasing of goods and services.

Financial Direction 5.1 – Purchasing of Goods and Services and Financial Direction 5.6 – The Control of Capital Expenditure, advise on the requirements for background credit checks on all companies prior to their engagement.

A copy of Clause 2.1.14 from Financial Direction 5.1 is re produced below for information below:

Due diligence and award of contract

2.1.14. Prior to awarding the final contract the Accounting Officer (or their delegate) must ensure that appropriate due diligence has been undertaken on the supplier, including checks on creditworthiness, legal standing (including outstanding claims) and the provision of a performance bond if necessary. If the purchase exceeds £100,000 a formal credit check must be performed by the States approved Credit Checking Agency; contact your finance team to facilitate this. A nominal fee will be charged by the external agency. For values less than £100,000 consideration should also be given to a formal credit check where commercial risks are present (e.g. the supplier requires payment up front or stage payments' not associated with project deliverables or the goods or services are quite new or innovative to the market).

These procedures are followed for all Companies prior to the final award of a Contract

In addition to these financial checks, enquiries are made and references taken up to ensure the Company has the relevant skills, experience and standing in order to complete the capital project to the satisfaction of the Department

5. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE ELECTION OF JURATS:

Question

Will H.M. Attorney General advise whether the present election process for Jurats, whereby Jurats are elected by an electoral college of States Members and individuals from within the judiciary, is compatible with ensuring avoidance of a blurring' of lines between legislature and judiciary?

Answer

There is no difficulty as such in the legislature being involved in the process of appointment. In many legal systems, Judges are selected by the executive.

In any event, the question is not factually accurate in that the electoral college comprises not only, as the question states, States Members and some members of the judiciary but also all of the advocates and solicitors of the Royal Court. States Members are a minority in the electoral college.

The independence of the Jurats is secured by restrictions on their removal, at any rate without cause pursuant to Article 9 of the Royal Court (Jersey) Law 1948. It is only the Order of Her Majesty in Council on petition of the Superior Number of the Royal Court who may remove a Jurat from office. States Members have no role in that process. This security of tenure and freedom from external pressure from the legislature or executive is at the cornerstone of judicial independence and the good administration of justice.

6. DEPUTY T.M.PITMANOFST.HELIER OF THE MINISTER FORTREASURYAND RESOURCES REGARDING THE IMPACT, IN TERMS OF NEGATIVE EQUITY, OF THE LOSS OF THE FINANCE INDUSTRY IN JERSEY:

Question

Given the rapidly changing economic climate and growing international opposition to offshore financial centres or 'tax havens' will the Minister advise whether the Treasury has estimated the impact, in terms of negative equity, of a collapse or relocation elsewhere of the finance industry and, if so, would be provide details for members?

Answer

No. Whilst never complacent, the Minister is confident our financial services industry can and will continue to share in market opportunities presented by the growth in worldwide demand for financial services. The significant benefit the City of London, and thereby the UK and European economies, gains from Jersey's financial services activities should continue to be recognised and therefore is likely to continue to be supported by this UK Government as it was with the previous one. However, financial services in both the UK and the EU continue to undergo major structural regulatory reforms together with increasing competition from other global centres such as those in Asia, Latin America and the Gulf. Ministers continue to understand, research and identify opportunities including how technology will change these industries and secure opportunities for Jersey building on our strengths of stability, trust, quality and innovation.

When the G20 and other international bodies express concerns about "tax havens" those concerns are for what is described generally as non-cooperation in complying with the relevant international standards. Jersey has no reason to fear action being taken against non-cooperative jurisdictions because we are internationally recognised as a jurisdiction that has a high standard of compliance with the international standards for financial regulation, anti-money laundering and transparency and exchange of information for tax purposes. The recent report on financial services highlighted on page 69 of this week's Economist states that contrary to conventional wisdom, providers such as Jersey "were much more likely to comply with the standards than those from the OECD, a club of mostly rich countries."

The Minister will concentrate on giving support to the finance industry, from which residents benefit greatly, in its development of existing and new markets and products. He will also work to further enhance Jersey's reputation internationally as a cooperative, high quality international finance centre. In doing so the Minister trusts he will have the full support of all States members. In addition to all of this work, to ensure that Jersey diversifies its economy, significant effort is being applied to developing Jersey's digital economy, which will be complementary to ensuring new financial services business in Jersey's economy.

7. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING POLICY CHANGES IN RESPONSE TO CHILD ABUSE ALLEGATIONS:

Question

Will the Minister clarify what differences/changes in policy have been put in place with regard to reporting allegations of child abuse since the Victoria College incident and the subsequent Sharp Report and how does the policy both then and now comply with the Children (Jersey) Law 2002?

Answer

The ESC Department has a duty of care to children and young people in its care, and the Children's Service has a statutory duty to investigate all referrals relating to the possibility that a child is at risk of significant harm. Since 1990 investigations have been undertaken by the joint Children's Service and Police Family Protection Team, now known as the Public Protection Unit.

In addition, ESC has updated and developed its policies in this area in line with UK guidelines and best practice on safeguarding young people. These are regularly reviewed.

The policy requires all allegations to be reported to the Department, which takes a multi-agency approach and refers cases to the Children's Service where appropriate and if it is considered there is a risk to a young person.

The Senior Education Welfare Officer at the Department is the lead Child Protection Officer for the Service and each school has their own trained child protection co-ordinator. ESC abide by the Children (Jersey) Law 2002 and the Jersey Child Protection Committee procedures. We use the JCPC referral forms and thresholds.

All staff working with children and young people must have an awareness of child protection procedures. Training is in place in all schools and areas of the organisation and takes places regularly so that every employee understands their role and obligations in safeguarding young people in their care.

8. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE WAY IN WHICH CUSTODIAL SENTENCES ARISING FROM CHILD ABUSE CASES WERE DETERMINED:

Question

Given the variation in the custodial sentences arising from recent child abuse cases, will H.M. Attorney General clarify what is actually taken in to consideration by the courts when reaching such decisions?

Answer

As for all other cases, the appropriate sentence in a child abuse case will depend upon the particular facts of each individual case. The term "child abuse" covers both physical and sexual abuse and the circumstances of individual cases may differ greatly.

In all cases which are brought before the courts, the courts will be referred to and will take into account sentences given in previous cases which are relevant to the case before it in determining the appropriate sentence. In cases which are dealt with before the Royal Court, the Attorney General moves Conclusions, in other words advises the Court on the appropriate sentence, and will have regard to the relevant previous cases before determining what Conclusions he should move.

As already stated, each case will depend on its own individual facts but the types of matter which the court will take into account before determining the appropriate sentence will include the nature and duration of the abuse, the number of victims, their age and vulnerability, the impact which the offender's conduct has had, whether the defendant was in a position of trust and whether the defendant has pleaded guilty and spared the victims the ordeal of giving evidence. The court will also have some regard to the age and state of health of the defendant and matters that may be contained in reports prepared for the court by probation and other services.

9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING THE TEACHING OF MODERN FOREIGN LANGUAGES IN JERSEY SCHOOLS:

Question

Following the broad support in his response to questions on 11th September 2012, for the improvement of access to modern foreign languages (MFL) in Jersey schools, will the Minister agree to produce a report on the teaching of MFL in schools to include for the period 2002-2012 –

1. the range of languages available in Jersey schools to GCSE and A/A2 levels
2. the numbers of classes and of students taking GCSE and A/A2 level in MFL
3. the number of students going on to study MFL at degree level
4. a breakdown of results at GCSE and A/A2 level
5. an analysis of what policy decisions have contributed to the trends revealed by these figures?
6. what policy measures might contribute to increasing/improving the teaching of MFL over the period of the Medium Term Financial Plan to 2015 to include a review of the use of modern language teaching assistants and the removal of class size restrictions on class size at exam level?

Answer

The Education Sport and Culture Minister is required by law to establish a balanced and broadly based' basic curriculum for children of compulsory school age. Modern foreign languages are included. French is compulsory from Key Stage 2 in primary school to the end of Key Stage 3 in secondary school. French is not compulsory at GCSE but has to be offered by all schools and approximately 60% of pupils take it to exam level. Schools have the flexibility to offer a range of other languages and this is driven by student demand.

The Jersey Curriculum, which is based on the UK National Curriculum but tailored to Jersey requirements, is constantly under review by the Curriculum Council, which I chair and which comprises head teachers, teachers, Professional Partners and ESC officers. Work is already under way on a broad curriculum review, which will look at other jurisdictions and will have to take into account the changes to the UK exam system, particularly the proposed introduction of the English Baccalaureate. This work will include all subjects.

I do support an increase in the uptake of modern foreign languages but want to avoid taking a piecemeal approach to curriculum change, especially at a time when the UK exams system is undergoing such fundamental change. I would like to look at modern foreign languages in the context of an overall curriculum review.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING ECONOMIC GROWTH FORECASTS:

Question

Will the Minister include the Office for Budget Responsibility's figures for growth in the UK economy for 2010-2015 missing from Table 1 in his answer to written question 7053 on 11th September 2012 and state why he did not include these figures in the answer?

If the Fiscal Policy Panel advise that his forecasts for real growth in GDP/GVA are optimistic will the Minister reduce spending in the Medium Term Financial Plan or maintain spending through borrowing?

Answer

The figures requested were not included in Table 1 simply because that summarised the data used in  Chart  1 which covered IMF  forecasts for  a number  of  key regions  of  the world  and the equivalent assumptions  used  in the  MTFP  for  Jersey. The  Office  for  Budget  Responsibility forecasts and the assumptions used in the MTFP were summarised and described in the next section of the answer and the supporting chart. It was explained that although Jersey is forecast to grow at a slightly higher rate in 2012, the UK is forecast to grow more quickly in 2014 and 2015, meaning that by 2015 there is little difference in the rate of growth over the period as a whole. The data requested is provided in the table below.

If the Fiscal Policy Panel revise down their existing forecasts for Jersey real economic growth then the Minister will listen to their advice on what it means for the balance of fiscal policy over the life of the MTFP and in particular whether a different course of action is recommended. This will be given full consideration by the Minister and the Council of Ministers and if necessary amendments will be brought to the MTFP to reflect that advice. The Minister does not want to second guess possible revisions or recommendations from the FPP. He will await their report, which is due to be published on October 1 2012.

* The falls in total GVA (3% in 2008, 6% in 2009 and 5% in 2010) were driven by the performance of the Finance sector. These should be put in the context of strong growth in 2006 and 2007 (5% in each of those years), and growth in years subsequent to 2010. The drivers for the period of negative growth were the worldwide financial services crisis and interest rates.

11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE EFFECT OF ECONOMIC GROWTH ON POPULATION LEVELS:

Question

Given that the Treasury forecasts for real growth in GDP/GVA for 2012 – 2015 range from 1.4% to 2.5% over and above inflation this means growth at or above 5% over this period, what measures, if any, does the Chief Minister have under consideration to ensure that such high growth rates are not accompanied by population increases such as were seen during the 2006 – 2007 when growth was at similar levels?

Answer

Growth in 2006 and 2007 was well in excess of that forecast in any year of the Medium Term Financial Plan (MTFP). The 5% real growth in 2006 and 2007 compares to real growth assumptions in the MTFP that average just less than 2% over the 2011-2015 period and never exceed 2.5% in any one year.

The Economic Growth and Diversification Strategy agreed by the States in July sets out how we will deliver economic growth without recourse to significant net inward migration. That is by focusing on encouraging innovation and improving competitiveness, growing and diversifying the financial services sector, creating new business and employment in high value sectors and raising the productivity of the whole economy while reducing the reliance on inward migration.

The 2012 Strategic Plan sets out that we will agree population and immigration policy in July 2013 once we have time to assess the implications of the new population model which was published ahead of schedule last week and to undertake wide public consultation on the basis of the most up to date information.

In the meantime and in line with the actions set out in the Strategic Plan we are already taking action to control inward migration. We are granting permission for non-locally qualified staff only when thoroughly justified and issuing J-cats only where high economic value is demonstrated, where local staff are not available and where employment is safeguarded or created. The Population Office has been reducing spare capacity (particularly for non-locally qualified staff) as Regulation of Undertakings licences expire.

The introduction of the new Control of Housing and Work Law and Register of Names and Addresses Law in January 2013 will improve the effectiveness of our migration controls, meaning that we are better able to achieve whatever policy is decided by the States next year.

12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ECONOMIC BASIS FOR THE INCREASE IN PERSONAL TAX YIELDS AND THE REASONS FOR CERTAIN DEPARTMENTAL UNDERSPENDS FOR 2012:

Question

Following the publication of the half year corporate report 2012, will the Minister explain to members what he believes to be the underlying economic basis for a £13.7 million improvement in personal tax yield over expectations?

Will the Minister account to members for the Treasury and Resources £1.2 million underspend attributable to the timing of restructuring provision  funding  for  Procure to  Pay' and explain whether this represents a failure to deliver policy objectives in a timely manner?

Answer

The question consists of two unrelated elements which will be answered separately. Part one

The figure the Deputy has extracted from the Half-Year Corporate Report appears to be the £13.7 million favourable year to date variance on General Revenues income (as opposed to Departmental income). The full year forecast provides a more complete picture. At the start of each year the budgets for income and expenditure are allocated across months in which they are expected to occur.  If that income or  expenditure  occurs  in a different  month than  expected  there can  be variances which do not necessarily represent underlying increases or decreases. However, the year to date data does provide useful information from which full year forecasts can be revised.

To answer the first part of the question, the £13.7 million favourable income variance at the end of June was made up of the following:

The year to date favourable variance on tax revenues was therefore £14.1 million. Of this personal tax accounted for £13.6 million and company tax £0.5 million. The personal tax figure was based on a similar number of completed assessments at this stage of the year to 2011. As detailed in the MTFP there are two main elements to forecasting personal tax revenue:- total taxable income and the yield derived from that taxable income.

Company  Budget GVA profits Exemptions measures

Taxable Income forecast

Forecast

= Income receipts

Tax

X Employment Interest rates

Judgement

Average  Allowances earnings

Analysis suggests that the £13.6 million improvement in personal tax is due to improvements in the yield from the forecast taxable income, rather than an improvement in the total level of taxable income itself. (It should be noted that personal tax includes sole traders and partnerships). It is therefore too soon to attribute any changes to underlying economic factors that are affecting the level of personal tax receipts.

Part two

The Procure to Pay system will improve the requisitioning and payment processes for buying goods and services from corporate contracts. Whilst the current plans for the delivery of CSR savings do not rely upon the delivery of the Procure to Pay system, the system when implemented will be a major step forward in putting us in a position to have States wide data and information on contracts that will help us aggregate spending by departments and help identify future savings. The aim is to deliver  long  term  improvements  in  procurement  processes  and  the  short  delay  regarding  the purchase of the system does not represent a failure to deliver a policy objective in a timely manner. The underspend  relates  to  restructuring  funding  drawn down  but  not  yet spent. Any  unspent funding at the end of the project would be returned to that budget.

The tender for a Procure to Pay system has been completed and a supplier selected. This supplier is currently completing the proof of technology stage of the procurement process and the final system specification is being developed.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade to the Minister for Social Security regarding access to Income Support for mature students:

Will the Minister advise what criteria, if any, exist for allowing mature students to maintain their Income Support allocation while studying in further education and confirm whether some potential students are more at risk of having their Income Support cut if they go on to study than others and if so, why?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security):

The  Income  Support system  is  based  on  working  age  adults  supporting  themselves  through employment as far as possible. Income Support can also be provided if the individual has little prospect of employment with their current skills and a period of full-time education would be likely to provide them with relevant work-related skills and increase their prospects of finding employment locally. As well as courses at Highlands College, adults aged over 19 can receive support through the Advance Plus scheme, which combines work-related training with work placements. The Income Support team liaises closely with the Back-to-Work team, specialist Workwise advisers, career advisers and Highlands College to ensure that each individual job seeker receives advice and guidance to undertake appropriate education or training to develop work- related skills. The application process for courses at Highlands includes advice on financial support at an early stage to ensure that students understand their benefit entitlement. I can confirm that an individual who voluntarily leaves employment to take up full-time study is unlikely to receive support through Income Support benefit and may therefore suffer a cut. A move of this nature would only be supported if the potential student had compelling medical or personal reason, which affected their existing employment. A mature student over the age of 25 wishing to undertake a full-time 3-year degree level course would, as a general rule, not be eligible for Income Support benefit. Exceptions can be made in specific circumstances or for a course which combines studying and paid work experience, such as a nursing degree course.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

I thank the Minister for that full answer. If I read some contact that I have had with a constituent who said she was initially told that Income Support were very supportive of her taking on further education and then said: "Within a month I received a letter saying that if I do not leave Highlands by Friday I would have my support removed" and that there was 10 days' notice with 4 removed already by letter date. She goes on to explain - I believe the Minister has probably seen the correspondence - that she did not receive much success from the department and was treated in what she felt was an unsatisfactory manner. But the question is, does the Minister accept that since the date that Social Security and Income Support were implemented there has been a vast increase in unemployment so there are more people chasing fewer jobs. Also that there needs to perhaps be a review of the policy given that those who cannot find jobs because they do not exist or they do not have developmental training need to be given a level playing field so that they can access a higher education without having obstacles put in their way?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Obviously I cannot go into the circumstances of an individual case but I hope in my original answer I made it clear to Members that where we assess that taking on an educational course at Highlands College or other suitable training would assist people with finding a job, which of course is what we are all about at Social Security, then they will be encouraged to do that and assisted to do that but the maximum time would be a one-year course. We would not normally be encouraging people to do a course longer than one year.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

As a corollary to this, will the Minister confirm that mature students will receive credits for pension contributions while they are undertaking a degree course?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

There is a scheme whereby people attending a university degree course are entitled to credits and this would of course normally apply to people under the age of 25, but I will check that and confirm to the Senator whether that applies to mature students.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Will the Minister state whether receipt of an education grant for a particular course is regarded for Income Support calculations?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

The provision of what I think the Deputy refers to is the maintenance grants for a local student attending a degree course at the university centre at Highlands College, would be available to somebody under the age of 25 but the majority of students in that category will be living at home and therefore the grant would replace effectively the personal component of Income Support.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

For an independent student, not at home, would receipt of an education grant be regarded for the Income Support calculation?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Yes, it would.

5. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour :

The Minister mentioned in his first answer relative working skills. Could the Minister therefore advise who determines exactly what "relative working skills" are?

[9:45]

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Yes, I would confirm that this is through a meeting of the people who are relevant to this decision, which would be careers advisers, Highlands College tutors, the individual concerned at the Back- to-Work team, and the people who look after Income Support. So it would be looked in the round by all the relevant people.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Is it not a fact that somebody who may be in finance at the moment who is then unemployed or wishes to change career, if they want to go into, say, a caring profession, not nursing, just say a healthcare assistant, then Income Support will not support them because they look at it as they are downgrading? Whereas if it is the other way round people will be supported. As Deputy Vallois says, who says what is relevant to somebody's own circumstances and what is needed in the Island?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I keep going back to my original answer to Deputy Tadier 's question. If somebody chooses to leave full-time employment to go into studying then we are very unlikely to assist them with Income Support benefit. That applies whether they want to go into a different type of profession - which the Deputy suggests may be lesser paid - or whether they want to improve their employment chances by doing a totally different course. But the point that Members need to understand that Income Support benefits are to support people who are actively seeking work and are fit to get into work. We are not substituting our benefit for education grants.

7. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

The lovely Deputies on my right and left have stolen my thunder a little, however I would just like to continue the theme and ask the Minister, was it not a comparatively short time ago that Deputy Southern put forward the very sensible idea of having a designated selection of courses that might have been very helpful in this so people could know where they stood, and is there any work being done in developing that?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Department officers will have their own list, if you like, of courses that they would feel would be appropriate but of course each individual is different and their needs are different, and we would not want to be so specific that we make a list of courses which people might choose as an option rather than actively seek work.

8. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :

What availability is there within Social Security for a person being retrained in the trades, which takes 4 to 5 years? What kind of support is there within Social Security for the long-term training given somebody who is totally inexperienced going to be a plumber, for instance, or electrician, where the first 2 years are basically paid at a very low rate? Is there support for these people being retrained?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Yes, I can confirm to the Constable that in those circumstances where somebody is in work and learning a trade and perhaps on a low.. they would have to of course be either on the trainee rate within the minimum wage or the minimum wage itself. If they were self-supporting, in other words if they were renting their own accommodation, we would certainly consider them for Income Support benefit to top up so that they could afford to live a reasonable standard of living.

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Can the Minister tell me whether there is any strategy at all within the Council of Ministers between Education and Income Support to deal with training? Because we seem to talk about university courses as if it is the only form of training there is. There are many people in this Island who want to develop skills which would be for the benefit of the Island and the economy and they are not getting assistance from Education; they cannot get grants for it or they are not getting money from Income Support. If we are going to deal with the unemployment situation and provide the workforce we need for the future, does the Minister have a strategy and, if not, when is he going to get one?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I would say to the Deputy that there is.. in fact we had a meeting yesterday of the Skills Executive which is chaired.. the Chair rotates but the 3 Ministers sitting on that is myself, the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture and the Minister for Economic Development, and the Skills Board reports to us and it is their role to make sure that we are joined up in the provision of training and skills training across the Island.

10. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Can I just ask a supplementary? You mentioned a meeting yesterday but is there a strategy in place and how long is it going to take? Obviously there is not, but how long will it take?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

There are numerous strategies starting from age 14 upwards to mature students and I cannot tell you that there is one strategy across all groups but there are individual strategies for different groups of people. There is a lot of work going on particularly with apprenticeships and a launch of a new apprenticeship scheme which is very relevant to getting people back into work.

11. Deputy M. Tadier :

I have had information from a professional at Highlands College who says that several students have approached her and said that they are too scared to approach Social Security and tell them that they have not got a job, so they are paying for their own study. Does the Minister not think it is a strange situation that Social Security will pay somebody who cannot find work to maybe not find work and not have anything meaningful to do with their day or pay them the same amount of money so that they can better themselves in the context of a higher education or further education college? Will the Minister undertake to review what seems to be a discretionary system so that proper policies, if they do exist, can be put in place so that people are not made to feel as if they are being pushed from pillar to post?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I am not quite sure where the Deputy was going with that particular question but the important thing perhaps to make clear is that if somebody on Income Support, particularly if they are actively seeking work, wishes to study at home then we do encourage that to increase their qualifications and we will provide assistance with the cost of courses and materials in those circumstances. I know the Deputy would like me to be more specific as to regard the policy but we do have a policy. I am happy to provide the Deputy with a copy of that policy and, at the moment, I do feel it is sufficient for the current circumstances under which we are working.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will he circulate that policy to all Members?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I would have to check with officers but I see no reason why I could not do that.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the managed print service tender process:

Does the Minister believe that the managed print service tender process was well handled and that the contract entered into with Danwood represents the best value for the Jersey taxpayer and, if so, would he please explain to the Assembly why?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Yes, this process I believe has been well handled. A competitive tender process began in 2008 with adverts appearing in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) and the Official Journal of the European Union, which is the official notification system for public procurement projects. Supplies were shortlisted using a pre-qualification questionnaire which required tenderers to have a Jersey-based support. A thorough procurement process followed, including site visits, detailed site surveys and installing a trial device at a pilot site. Suppliers were scored on 3 elements: their technical response, user feedback and commercial arrangements, of course, including price. On this criteria Danwood Jersey offered the best value and was selected as the preferred supplier. This is one of the important procurement savings which is designed to deliver £6 million worth of savings for the Assembly by 2013. The States were spending £1.6 million on printing, we think, and the target is to deliver £250,000 worth of saving. The aims of the arrangements are also to reduce the amount of printing devices in the States. There are currently 2,600 devices and the aim is to reduce them to around 1,000, also to reduce the number of the types of device from currently 700 devices to a standardised number of 12. Also to provide better information and to reduce pay per use, quite apart from time and energy costs. Early indications show that print volumes themselves are falling. I saw a report yesterday which showed that in certain sites they are down by 39 per cent for mono printing and 65 per cent for colour. There are, of course with all changes, a number of individual sites where the benefits are not yet fully being realised, but these will be resolved with staff training and working with the supplier.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Will the Minister tell the Assembly whether an internal or external report has been carried out into this contract by the Treasury and, in particular, into copy charges and capital outlay, following concerns in States departments who say that savings have been deducted from their budgets but no savings have been proved? Will he please tell the States what this internal survey has revealed?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Treasury, of course, carries out monitoring of reviews of all important areas and indeed the whole procurement area is an important aspect whereby we are trying to remove £6 million from departmental budgets and sometimes departments. The experience of other transfers of money from setting up corporate departments of course has revealed that sometimes departments are unwilling to give up those budgets. Treasury has to prove that those savings are realised. Yes, there has been a report and I reviewed a draft of it with the Treasurer last night, and I am very pleased with the process and the progress of this whole project. It is reorganising the way that printing, which is an expensive commodity in the States, is being delivered. Yes, there are going to be some departments that do not agree but, frankly, the amount of devices in the States, energy saving costs, paper saving costs, enabling users to understanding what they are spending in terms of their printing, is the way that we are delivering savings. Actually the £250,000 target I think is probably a lot bigger when taking management time and all the other costs associated with it.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

The Minister is aware that Danwood is a local subsidiary, somewhat manufactured of a U.K. (United Kingdom) firm; why was no action taken to encourage local suppliers to join in a consortium?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

As I understand it, as with all procurement, there were. Indeed there have been some excellent working relations with Economic Development and Procurement to raise the game of local suppliers in order that they may sometimes join forces and deliver their opportunity of delivering the public better value for money. On this occasion a local supplier was not chosen.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson

Supplementary, Sir? Given that up until recently the Treasury had no idea of the cost of printing, will the Minister supply and circulate an analysis of the overall transaction to demonstrate that it is value for money, because there are grave doubts about that.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am afraid to say that I think Senator Ferguson doubts quite a lot of the things that I say, but I am afraid [Laughter] to say that I am very confident about the ability of the procurement and the Treasury to deliver savings. Let us just consider again the States of Jersey had 2,600 printing devices. We are reducing that to 1,000. We are cutting the amount of devices from 700 different types of printers and fax machines and copiers to 12. That is saving huge amounts of effort and time of individuals of their departments. I would imagine that the Senator should be encouraging the Treasury to deliver this kind of savings and no, we did not know the full cost of savings because of course you do not know how much Health or T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) is going to be spending on management time wasted on printer devices, energy costs of printers left on, et cetera. But we do now have a handle on it and I would hope that she would celebrate such a marvellous successful project so far.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

I would like the evidence.

4. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I am still shocked that anyone would doubt the word of the Minister for Treasury and Resources. The Minister mentioned a figure of a drop of 39 per cent, I think. Could he advise the Assembly on this because is it not a fact that, certainly from what I have been fed back from within E.S.C. (Education, Sport and Culture), the reality has been that the company has not been able to supply some services and materials that it should have done, which has left schools struggling. If that is what is contributing to this 39 per cent drop, that cannot be a good thing. I would ask and hope that the Minister agrees with me.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I completely agree. Hopefully I have saved on some printing costs myself and used for the first time an iPad to answer my question this morning, so perhaps it is through technology that we can stop printing. But we do need to save paper. It costs money. I think the target of removing 20 per cent of the costs of the number of prints that are done certainly can be easily achieved.

[10:00]

Certainly, as our schools become more involved in I.T. (information technology) as we roll out new technology with the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture and his team, there are going to be huge savings that are going to be taken for that. The Deputy is right, some schools have struggled with some of the new arrangements but the best endeavours of the Procurement Department are being put to help those schools deal with it and also to remove their own costs, which is better for everybody.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

There has been in the last few years an outbreak of very glossy publications extolling the weaknesses.. sorry, the achievements of our many government agencies. These have clearly cost a lot of money. Is it the Minister's intention to persuade people to move more of these to the internet and, secondly, how many Jersey jobs have been created by this Jersey-based company?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I do not know the answer to that last question but I will endeavour to find out. I would not want to stop printing of glossy publications when they are as good as the St. Martin 's magazine [Members: Oh!] that has been put in Members' desks and all the parishes that do their magazines. They are great because not everybody has got a tablet. But of course the Deputy is correct when he says that there has been a rooting out of States departments doing glossy self-promotion, and I think there has been far less of them that are appearing in the boxes that we pick up in our areas but of course we all need to be moving to tablets because it is a lot cheaper.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can I just clarify that Danwood is the beneficial owner and non-local and therefore it is zero-rated and is generating no tax for the States of Jersey?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Yes, that is correct, and there is nothing new about that. I will be making some proposals in relation to non-financial services in the Budget, as I promised a number of months ago. There is no scoring of points in relation to that, and the States of Jersey must get best value having regard to customer service and all other matters. We should not be protectionist. That is the way that we will not deliver our savings.

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I was very pleased to see the Minister for Treasury and Resources so confident about this particular contract. I hope that the Minister for Treasury and Resources will give an undertaking that if it is discovered the tender process was seriously  flawed, and if this contract is not generating the savings that he believes it is creating, that he will resign?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Let us be clear on a couple of things. Ministers and this Assembly set policy and it is for our departmental officials to implement policy. I expect the highest standards in all of my departments, with my Assistant Minister and I am confident in the Procurement Department. If there are issues that would come to light in relation to any aspect of our administration we would take action. In

this case, for once, I would ask the Deputy to say: "Is it not a good thing that we are trying to save money and deliver better value for money" rather than simply carping at me and asking for me to resign.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does that mean another civil servant will go? Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Can I ask the Deputy to withdraw that? I think that there was a personal remark in relation to me which was inappropriate.

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, I did not quite hear it. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Minister was so confident in this thing here he says he sees no need to resign. I just asked if that would mean another civil servant will be going because there are flaws in this contract.

3. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding alternative payments to bring pension increases for 2012 and 2013 closer in line with the cost of living:

As the Social Security (Jersey) Law 1974 requires pensions to be increased in line with the Jersey Earnings Index, would the Minister advise whether he is looking at alternative payments to bring pension increases for 2013, and indeed 2012, closer in line with the cost of living?

Senator F. du H Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security):

I can confirm that I am looking at a variety of methods to provide targeted supported to local pensioners. This was clearly set out in our States debate earlier this year on "triple lock" and more recently the Minister for Home Affairs confirmed that this matter would be investigated. I will be meeting interested Ministers in approximately 4 weeks' time to discuss a number of possible proposals, which are currently being drawn up. Members will recall that a new cold weather bonus to support pensioners with fuel costs has already been introduced earlier this year and the second bonus payment in respect of October to December will be made next January. I do not favour a pension increase linked to the cost of living as it will disadvantage pensioners in the long term. Over the last few years we have experienced low rises in the earnings index due to the global economy and relatively high increases in the retail price index partly due to the introduction of G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax). Despite this, the historic linking of the old age pension to the earnings index continues to ensure that the value of the pension has risen substantially above the increase in prices over the last 12 years. As I have previously stated, I do favour providing targeted support to pensioner groups, subject to agreeing with fellow Ministers, the source of this additional funding that will be required and I will be pursuing this area actively over the next few months.

1. Deputy R.J. Rondel:

I thank the Minister for that reply but I just wondered if he could give a clearer timeline on when he may be able to advise Members on other benefit schemes for the pensioners and, just out of interest, whether the Minister would be able to inform the Assembly what percentage of pensions are paid locally as opposed to off-Island?

The Bailiff :

I am not sure that last question arises out of the question. I do not suppose the Minister will have the information at his fingertips.

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

The meeting that I mentioned is scheduled for 30th October and so between now and then we will be drawing up proposals for the Ministers to consider and announcements will be made after that meeting. I have the information the Deputy is seeking. We have 16,000, approximately, local pensioners of which there are 1,570 pensioner households on Income Support.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister must be aware that at a time when pensions are going up by 1.5 per cent, States housing rents will be going up by 3.5 per cent, I believe many pensioners will be worse off before he has his meeting about what he plans to do about this. What is he going to do about this?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I may have misheard what the Deputy said, but the rise in the rents in the States sector of 3.5 per cent is matched by a rise in the rental component within Income Support. I accept that there are some States tenants who do not claim Income Support. That is not to say that some of them perhaps may be entitled but they have never come and asked for Income Support. However, it is a fact, and I cannot deny it, that rents are going up in the public sector, which if somebody is not on Income Support the pensioners will have difficulty in finding the extra money.

3. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :

Will the Minister be looking at the "triple locking" system as part of his review of the pensions? Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

No.

The Deputy of Grouville :

Could he expand on that and tell us why not?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Because we have had a States debate. The proposition was proposed by Senator Breckon, the proposition was lost and I do not propose to go and look at "triple lock" again.

4. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter :

My question was related to that of Deputy Southern 's but I would like the Minister to elaborate slightly, if he could, because there are States tenants who do not claim Income Support currently who are very concerned about this rise in their rent. I would like to know from the Minister what communication has taken place with those tenants in order to reassure them about the future costs, because many are already concerned by the increased cost of food.

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

We are talking about, I assume, pensioners who live in States housing who do not claim Income Support. I do not know, and my department do not know, who those people are and therefore any communication would have to come from the Minister for Housing.

5. Senator L.J. Farnham :

Just a clarification: I think the Minister has acknowledged that pensioners have suffered extraordinarily over the last 2 to 3 years given the unique economic circumstances, and States policy such as the one-off hit from the increase in G.S.T. Will he just confirm to give pensioners in the meantime the peace of mind that he will be proposing some form of increase for pensioners and that it will be backdated accordingly?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I cannot confirm what the Senator is asking me to confirm. I would like to draw Members' attention to what is happening in Guernsey. Members may be aware that the Minister for Social Security in Guernsey has proposed a 3.6 per cent increase in old age pensions. The Minister for Treasury and Resources in Guernsey is opposed to this because the fact is that their social security fund will be running out of money very quickly. They are currently running deficits of £7.67 million per year, which will increase with the proposed increase in the pensions. I am not prepared, as Minister for Social Security, to damage the prospects of people currently in work receiving a fair pension and therefore I will not be doing what the Senator proposes.

6. Deputy R.J. Rondel:

I would just ask the Minister, and indeed the Council of Ministers, to make it a priority to communicate as much as possible with the pensioners as to what they are planning to do because there are a lot of them who are very concerned about prices, such as of food, and are struggling. So I think it is important, we owe it to them to liaise and communicate as much as possible.

The Bailiff :

So the question is would the Minister agree to that? Deputy R.J. Rondel:

Would the Minister agree? Thank you.

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Yes.

4. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding matters under discussion at the Liberal Democrat Conference by the Assistant Chief Minister:

Will the Assistant Chief Minister be discussing our justice system when he attends the forthcoming Liberal Democrat Conference and, if not, why not?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The Assistant Chief Minister is, as the questioner says, currently at the Liberal Democrat Conference and is holding a number of discussions with Liberal Democrat M.P.s (Members of Parliament) and Lords. He will no doubt take the opportunity to discuss a wide range of issues in relation to Jersey.

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

The U.K., of course, has a Justice Ministry and a priority when that was set up, if I can read it, was to ensure that: "Law-making is transparent and accessible, safeguarding civil liberties and enabling citizens to receive the proper protection of the law." What I would ask the Chief Minister is that given the sort of lax casual approach that was taken in this Island when Ministerial government was set up, we have no Justice Ministry - that seems to me just sort of cosy little groups - would it not have been wise to have some approach to the U.K. for assistance in developing that into a more formal footing?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not sure how that arises out of the question relating to the Liberal Democrat Conference, and I do not believe or accept the premise of the Deputy 's question with regard to our justice system. But if he feels that it should be administered in a different way with a special ministry oversight then of course that is for him to bring forward that proposition or we can consider what it is that he has in mind. But I do not, at this point, see the need for it.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I note with interest the Assistant Minister stating at the Liberal Democrat Party Conference that Jersey is not a tax haven. Will the Chief Minister encourage his Assistant Minister to go further and invite as many wealthy Lib Dem donors to move to Jersey to benefit from our wealth management expertise and our guaranteed confidentiality?

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I think it is hard to see how that one arises out of the original question.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the Assistant Chief Minister be able to discuss with the Liberal Democrats why U.K. M.P.s appear to have a greater ability to speak openly about matters, including Jersey matters, without censorship on their Hansard when we States Members do not enjoy the same level of privilege in our own Island Assembly?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Once again I refute that we do not enjoy that same parliamentary privilege in this Assembly. We do. When it comes to parliamentary privilege in the United Kingdom House of Commons, that of course is a matter for them.

[10:15]

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the Minister clarify that? I was particularly talking about the point about censorship of our Hansard. For example we had an incident which was curious this week where 2 weeks ago Deputy Trevor Pitman made a comment only for a name to be removed from our Hansard, only later on for a Mr. Hemming M.P. to name in a different way in the Assembly in the House of Commons. That is what I am referring to. Does the Minister still maintain that we have exactly the same level of parliamentary privilege that they enjoy in the U.K.?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not see how the Deputy 's comments would indicate otherwise. As I said, with regard to naming of individuals and parliamentary privilege, that is an issue for the House of Commons. A ruling was made in this place. I was not here so I do not know the details, but a ruling was made and that is right that we stand by that ruling.

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Deputy Tadier has rather led the way in what I was going to ask, however on that same theme, is it not a concern to the Chief Minister when he is sending his Assistant Minister away, that having heard the Assistant Minister's speech where he referred to what is certainly, in several cases, hard evidence fact that Mr. Hemming brought up, as being of dubious sources not official reports. Would it not be beneficial, in hindsight, that the Minister ensured his Assistant stuck to the facts? That has to be better for our reputation long term; would the Chief Minister not agree?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not accept that what was said in the United Kingdom House of Commons was in actual fact accurate. I have not heard the reporting of my Assistant Minister's comments but I have no doubt that they would have been factual and appropriate, as we would expect from Senator Bailhache . Perhaps I could just revisit parliamentary privilege. If any Member feels that it is inappropriate that people named should not be struck from Hansard then of course it is for this Assembly to change that rule to allow it to be otherwise, but I believe, as I said, that the Chair was right and made a ruling in line with the rules that govern this Assembly, and it is encumbered upon every Member to be careful not to abuse parliamentary privilege.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Could I have a final supplementary relating to what has been said? The Bailiff :

Yes.

6. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I must ask, given that answer from the Chief Minister, has he read the Sharp Report, which I did ask him to do about 3 months ago, and if so is he making that statement in light of having read that report because I think that proves what Mr. Hemming said?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I have not read that report. I do not see that Mr. Hemming referred to that report in his comments in the House of Commons.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the transfer of current employees of Connex to the new bus service provider CT Plus:

Following CT Plus' confirmation that current employees of Connex will be required to attend an interview prior to their transfer, what steps, if any, has the Minister taken to deliver the assurances he gave to Members on 12th June 2012, that he would use his "best endeavours to transfer all staff to the new company" and will the transfer of staff and their terms and conditions follow T.U.P.E. (Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment)) principles?

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

I can confirm that I am and continue to use my best endeavours to facilitate the transfer of all staff in accordance with the conditions of the existing contract. I can also assure Members that positions exist within the new contract for all of the eligible staff on the same substantive terms and conditions as they presently enjoy. While not required by the contract, I have, as far as I am able, endeavoured within the tender to follow the principles of the U.K.'s T.U.P.E., however, as is made clear in the existing contract, to facilitate this I am reliant on the full co-operation of Connex and the union to provide employment information. I must advise Members that the detailed information which would reasonably be required by T.U.P.E. has not been provided and therefore could not be incorporated into the tender process. At present, Connex, due to internal issues, have been unable to provide such information as names and addresses of staff so they can be used to invite them to meet their new employer, CT Plus, and discuss the move. I am delighted to inform Members that progress is being made to resolve this. In conclusion, I would reiterate that I am indeed using my best endeavours to facilitate the move of all staff and can confirm that positions exist for all the eligible staff. CT Plus is a social enterprise and a very credible and professional bus operator. One of their strengths is staff engagement, based on the fairness and equity, which they apply to run an organisation that is efficient and focused on the customer.

The Bailiff :

Deputy , do you wish a supplementary?

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I was very interested to hear that praise for CT Plus. Is the Minister aware that in Guernsey, CT Plus refused to recognise the representation from the unions there that have been recognised by the previous bus company?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

My information is that they have recognised the union in Guernsey and much of the recent problems they have had are due to the bus fleets which do not belong to the company.

2. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

There seems to be a trend today; the question I want to ask gets asked. However, the Minister has referred to trying to adhere to the principles of T.U.P.E. and would it not - this is not a criticism - have been far more helpful to him if he could have helped push to get that T.U.P.E. in place, then we could have something firm and structured and he would not have to be endeavouring to apply to principles?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Not quite sure where the Deputy is going with that, but to get anywhere near a T.U.P.E. agreement, all relevant information must be provided to the new operator and so far, that information has not been forthcoming, such as names and addresses of staff et cetera, length of employment and the rest.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Is the Minister saying that his agent, so to speak, for managing the bus service, Connex, is refusing to give basic information which it is in possession of?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

In a nutshell, yes, but there has been, over the last few days, a great deal of movement on that and I am hopeful a resolution will arrive shortly.

The Bailiff :

Deputy Tadier and then a final question from Deputy Southern .

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

In the absence of T.U.P.E. legislation, how good are the Minister's best endeavours, and would he find it easier if there was T.U.P.E. legislation in place to follow?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

There will be definitely a T.U.P.E. style agreement in place, and as I say, I am extremely hopeful and I feel very positive that an agreement will arrive shortly regarding the missing information.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Minister aware that myBus has placed its employees as identified as being at risk of redundancy, and this is a very stressful position to be placed in when this is a relatively straightforward transfer that he is in charge of from one bus company to another?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Yes, I am indeed aware of that, which is why I am still using my best endeavours to alleviate that stress. As soon as the information is forthcoming regarding employees' names, addresses, job specification et cetera, we will move forward on that.

The Bailiff :

Very well. We will come next to a question which Deputy Baudains will ask of the Minister for Home Affairs. Deputy Baudains.

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding further investigations into the fatal crash on St. Clement 's Coast Road:

With regard to the crash on St. Clement's Coast Road, which claimed the life of the Latvian lady passenger, would the Minister advise whether the States of Jersey Police consider that the case is now closed and, if so, will he be requesting an outside police force to review the case following the removal of the death by dangerous driving charge and, if not, why not?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs):

This is of course a very tragic case involving the loss of life of a young woman. The role of the States Jersey Police is to investigate crime and to provide reports to prosecutors, who make the decision in relation to charges. The initial charge in this case was one of causing death by dangerous driving, but on 10th July 2012, there was a hearing in the Royal Court in relation to the admissibility of 3 pieces of evidence; 2 of those pieces of evidence were held to be inadmissible, and as a result of that evidence no longer being available, the prosecution decided to reduce the charge to one of careless driving. The criminal case is completed but an inquest will follow, and of course there is also the possibility of a civil claim. I am unaware of any failure in this case on the part of the States of Jersey Police and therefore any basis for either a review of the case or for a disciplinary investigation.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I appreciate that this question really falls between 2 areas of accountability, but I want to focus on those the Minister is accountable for or responsible for. As he so rightly said, many people are expressing concern at the leniency of the penalty, and presumably that includes the family of the Latvian lady as well. So my first question is this: the Minister, I presume, confirms the reason that the charge of death by dangerous driving failed is because insufficient evidence was available. Given the level of public concern and the appalling message sent out, in my view, by the lenient sentence would the Minister agree that a review by an outside force is not uncommon in such cases, where they would be able to confirm that our States Police did in fact gain all the information and evidence that they possibly could in order to allay public concern?