States Meeting Transcript - 13th May 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 13th MAY 2014

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................7

1. The Bailiff :..............................................................................7

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

2. Written Questions........................................................................8

2.1 THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING TAXATION RECEIVED FOR 2012 AND 2013:........8

3. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING LEGISLATION REGARDING ENTRY TO RESTAURANTS AND PUBS FOR A PERSON ACCOMPANIED BY A GUIDE DOG:......................13
4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING STATISTICS OF THOSE FAILING TO ACTIVELY SEEK WORK:................................................................................13
5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING RESULTS OF OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS (O.N.S.) DATA ON ZERO HOURS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM:....................................16
6. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE MONITORING OF TRAWLING: .........................................................................................17

3. Oral Questions...........................................................................18

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Chief Minister regarding the number of parking spaces provided at Cyril Le Marquand House: .................................18 Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):.............................18

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................18
2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................18

2. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding Le Geyt Centre Day services:....................................................................18 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................18

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................18
2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................19
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................19
4. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................19
5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................19
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................20
7. Deputy J.A.Hilton:.....................................................................20
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................20
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................20

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3. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the serving of disconnection notices by Jersey Water following non-payment of utility bills: .........................................................................................21 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):.............................................................................21

1. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................21
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................22
3. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John : ....................................................22
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................22
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................22
6. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................23

4. The Connétable of St. John of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the impact of the recent Royal Court decision in the action between the Minister, the States of Jersey Development Company and Harcourt and others on the development of the Esplanade Quarter: .....................................................................23 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................23

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................24
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................24
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................24
4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................25
   5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence of the Chief Minister regarding the publication ofthe Dame Heather Steel report:......................................................25 Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):.............................26

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................26
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................26
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................26

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................27
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................27
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27
7. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................28
8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................28

6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Chief Minister regarding the introduction of the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011 in the Island from January 2015:.......................29 Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):.............................29

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................29
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................29
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................30
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................30
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................31
   7. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the consequences of the loss of the proposed anchor tenant of the Jersey International finance Centre: .........................................................................31 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................31

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................32
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................32
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................32
4. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................33
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................33
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................33

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7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................34

8. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the potential adoption of the United Kingdom's approach to zero-hours contracts for those job seekers on universal credit: .....................................................................35 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................35

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the amount oftax paid by non-finance and utility companies: ......................................37 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................37

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................37
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
5. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................39
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................39
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................39

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding the transfer of £1 billion housing stock from the States to Andium Homes.......................................40 Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier (The Minister for Housing):..............................40

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................41
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
5. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:..................................................41
6. Deputy T.A. Vallois:................................................................41
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42

11. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s regarding revised procedures for Senatorial hustings meetings: ...........................................42 Connétable J.L.S. of Gallichan of Trinity (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s):..............42

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................42
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................43
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................43
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................44
5. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................44
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................44
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
9. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................45

12. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the introduction of a charge on properties connected to the main drainage system as a means of financing the cost of replacing and updating the public sewer network:..............45 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................46

1. Deputy J. H. Young:.................................................................46
2. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................46

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Home Affairs ..............47

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1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................47 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................47

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................47
   2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................48

4.2.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................48

3. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................48
4. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:...........................................49

4.4.1 The Connétable of St. Martin:..........................................................49

5. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:......................................................49
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................49

4.6.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................50

7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................50
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................50
9. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade:.................................................50

4.9.1 The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................51

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources...51

1. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................51 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................51
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................51

5.2.1 Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................52

3. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................52
4. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................52
5. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement : ........................................................53
6. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................53
7. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................53
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................54

5.8.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................54

9. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................54
10. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................54

5.10.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................55

11. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................55

5.11.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................55

12. The Deputy ofSt.Martin:..............................................................56
13. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................56
14. Senator L. J. Farnham :..................................................................56
15. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................56

5.15.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................57

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................57

6. Draft European Union Legislation (Implementation) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.164/2013) ...........................................................................................57

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):.........................57

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................58
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................59

3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................59
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................60
5. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................60
6. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................61

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7. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................62

2. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................63

7. Health and Safety Appeal Tribunal: re-appointment of Chairman (P.25/2014)......64

7.1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ........................64

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................65
2. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................65

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................65 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................65

8. Draft Passports (False Statements and Forgery) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.14/2014) ......65

1. Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): ...........................65
2. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................67

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................68
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................68
3. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................68

3. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................69

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................69
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................70
3. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................70

9. Draft Jersey Mutual Insurance Society, Incorporated (Alteration of Rules) (No. 7) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.27/2014)...........................................................71

9.1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):..........................72

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................72
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................73
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................73

9.2 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................74

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................74
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................74
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................75

10. Draft Financial Services Commission (Amendment of Law No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.29/2014)..........................................................................75

10.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):..........................75

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................76
2. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................76
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................76

11. Chief Minister election: Island-wide vote (P.45/2014)..................................77

11.1 Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................77

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................80
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................81
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................81
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................83
5. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................85
6. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................87
7. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:....................................................88
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................90
9. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................92

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10. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu of St. Helier : ..............................................93
11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :..............................................................94

12. Chief Minister and Ministers for External Relations and Treasury and Resources: Island wide mandate (P.44/2014) - as amended........................................99

12.1 The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................99

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:................................................................101
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................102
3. Senator P.M. Bailhache :............................................................102
4. Deputy S.Power:..................................................................103
5. Deputy J.A. Martin: ................................................................103
6. The Deputy of St. Ouen:............................................................104
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................105
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ..............................................................105
9. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John : ....................................................107
10. The Connétable of St. John : .....................................................108
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...............................................................109
12. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:.......................................................110
13. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:........................................................111
14. Deputy J.H. Young: .............................................................112
15. The Connétable of St. Mary : ....................................................112
16. The Deputy of Grouville :........................................................113

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................114

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[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Bailiff :

On behalf of Members, may I welcome His Excellency to this sitting of the Assembly. [Approbation] Secondly, I would like, if I may, publicly to thank and pay tribute to all those who helped in the preparation for Liberation Day this year. As Members know, a lot of people put a lot of work into the preparation for Liberation Day, very often doing it in their own time and on a voluntary basis, so I really do appreciate it and I hope that Members felt it went well, and I certainly would like to express my thanks to all those who gave so much time. [Approbation] Then finally, under A, as Members know, Lisa-Marie Hart has been appointed as Deputy Greffier of the States to replace Mrs. Anne Harris . Before she can take up the office, it is necessary for her to take the oath in the States, so I would be grateful if Mrs. Hart would step forward. Before she takes the oath, I know that her appointment has been announced to much acclaim in the Assembly on a previous occasion, but I just want to repeat how much all Members value the service you have given as Assistant Greffier; they, I know, have great confidence in your ability to perform the duties of Deputy Greffier, and I am sure they join me in wishing you every success during your term of office. [Approbation]

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Sir, could I just raise a point in terms of the order of the States. The fact the Chief Minister is not here means that, although there are certain items that have been dealt with by one of his Deputy Assistant Ministers, if we were, par impossible, to get to P.33, which of course is major item, it would have to be put back to start tomorrow so that he can, indeed, be there.

The Bailiff :

That, of course, is a matter for Members, but I would have thought the prospects of getting to Projet 33 today are not that high.  [Laughter]

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I did say "par impossible", Sir. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :

If it helps, Sir, I will be asking for my debate on Grouville School parking to be delayed until after a planning application is dealt with.

The Bailiff :

Very well. Sorry, deferred how long, Connétable ?

The Connétable of Grouville :

Until that planning application is decided upon, Sir.

The Bailiff :

Very well, so you are deferring it for the moment.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Sir, may I do the "possible" and raise the défaut on the Connétable of St. Saviour ? The Bailiff :

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Does the Assembly agree to raise the défaut on the Connétable of St. Saviour ? The défaut is raised.

QUESTIONS

2. Written Questions

1. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING TAXATION RECEIVED FOR 2012 AND 2013:

Question

Would the Minister Provide figures for the amount of taxation received from each area of the economy for the years 2012 and 2013?

Answer

Figures are provided below for (i) Income Tax and (ii) GST. (i) Company Income Tax

Sector 2012 2013 Financial Sector 59,275,000 69,778,000 Real Estate 12,238,000 11,644,000 Transport and Communications 2,421,000 2,041,000 Other Business Services 2,575,000 1,775,000 Construction and Quarrying 1,092,000 1,152,000 Agriculture and Horticulture 358,000 739,000 Hotels and Restaurants 714,000 675,000 Wholesale and Retail Distribution 538,000 553,000 Other Community, Social and Personal Services 59,000 146,000 Health and Social 45,000 65,000 Manufacturing 17,000 21,000 Total 79,332,000 88,589,000 Adjustment for accruals and year of assessment basis 157,000  9,893,000 Corporate Income Tax 79,489,000 98,482,000

Notes to Income Tax figures:

The above analysis is only for corporate entities, It does not include partnerships or self-employed.

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The industry classification is on a Taxes Office basis. This classification is in the process of being revised to bring it into line with the classification used by GST and other States Departments, in order to provide more consistent reporting.

The classification above is based on the primary activity of the business, which may not be the main source of tax income (for example, many businesses receive rental income, which is taxed at 20%, whilst their primary income from a trade is taxed at 0%)

In order to be able to report on tax revenues by industry, information is only available based on year of assessment, rather than financial year. Year of Assessment 2012 is almost exclusively recorded in financial year 2013, and Year of Assessment 2011 is almost exclusively recorded in financial year 2012.

There are two primary reasons for differences between Year of Assessment basis and Financial Year basis - accrual adjustments and amendments to assessments relating to other years. The net impact of these is shown separately. The main reason for the £9.9m 2013 figure is exceptional one- off revenue of £10.2m, representing UK source property-related profits from a previous Year of Assessment.

1. Personal Income Tax

It is not possible to analyse Personal Income Tax by area of the economy as a significant element of personal income is unearned, and cannot therefore be allocated to an industry. The comparable figures to the company tax data above are:

Financial Year 2012 £353,993,000 Financial Year 2013 £356,666,000

Amounts are as at 31 December 2013 and are as shown in The States of Jersey Financial Report and Accounts 2013, Revenue Note (9.5).

2. GST

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Notes to GST figures:

The table reflects the accrued revenue position that reconciles directly to the States of Jersey accounts (New Basis). Previously it has only been possible to produce industry information based on the period end of returns- a single return can span two years - with a separate adjustment to account for accruals. The written answer to States Question reference 1240/5(7867) by Deputy Vallois, tabled on Tuesday 8th October 2013, presented figures on this previous basis. These figures are reproduced in this answer.

Negative values are repayments (i.e. the business has paid more GST on its expenditure than it has on its sales, normally because it is making some zero-rated sales and is therefore entitled to a GST refund).

It is important to note that these figures are not directly comparable to other measures such as retail sales figures, for the following main reasons:

· GST includes both revenue and capital spend, so major capital projects can distort return values.

· Not all businesses are GST registered (turnover below threshold).

· Some sales will not have GST applied (e.g. zero rated/exempt sales such as domestic house building and export of goods)

The industry analysis is a modified version of the UK 2007 Standard Industry Classification.

2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING SUPPORT FOR LOCAL FISHERMEN:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether he intends giving support to fishermen who have suffered as a result of this winter's weather and, if so, would he describe the means by which he will achieve that?

Is he considering interest-free loans or grants and, if so, would he explain how that will be administered and how he will achieve fairness?

Furthermore, should the support be, for example, funding to replace lost or damaged pots etc, how will he ensure claims are genuine?

Answer

My Assistant Minister, the Deputy of Grouville , wrote to commercial fishermen on 14th April 2014 outlining a package of measures designed to support them following the recent sustained period of bad weather.

The package comprises:

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• The Economic Development Department (ED) covering the remaining Harbour Dues and / or commercial moorings (Ports of Jersey already discount Harbour Dues by 50%) of commercial fishermen for 2014 (ED will pay Ports of Jersey who will reimburse dues already paid).

• ED, supported by the Chief Minister, are working with Treasury & Resources to secure funding to be able to provide grants to commercial fishermen covering up to 80% of the cost of replacement or 20% of the cost of repairing, pots lost in the recent bad weather. If funding is secured from Treasury & Resources, grants will be awarded based on information provided to the Department that warrants that the losses have been incurred and that any grant monies awarded have been used for the purpose for which they were intended. All grants will be subject to published criteria.

• ED covering the Jersey Fishermen's Association's contribution in 2014 and 2015 to the annual Marine Stewardship Council (MSC) audit for the accreditation of the lobster fisheries and providing the minimum order quantity of bands carrying the MSC logo.

• ED have arranged for fishermen to discuss with Social Security means to be exempted from contributions liability during times when businesses are suffering from reduced incomes with the previously supplied dedicated points of contact.

• ED will arrange for officers from Social Security to meet the JFA and other commercial fishermen to explain Income Support and/or discuss any problems fishermen may be experiencing in accessing the scheme. The Income Support scheme is available to self- employed people on low incomes, subject to their other family circumstances and can adjust to variations in earnings.

• The structure of contributions, particularly for the self-employed, including share fishermen, will form a significant part of the fundamental review of the Social Security contribution scheme from 2015 and officers of ED will be involved in proposing new structures and schemes.

• ED will arrange individual and collective business support as appropriate, in particular for marketing and export activity, by Jersey Business Limited.

• ED will facilitate discussions between the JFA and the Genuine Jersey Products Association with a view to promoting the consumption of local fish and shellfish.

• ED working with the JFA, and other industry representatives, to commission and deliver a long term business development strategy for the fishing industry in Jersey.

• Strenuous efforts being continued by Government at political level, to assist fishermen with the territorial challenges they currently face with Guernsey.

Officers are working with the JFA to establish a set of criteria in addition to Financial Directions for the proposed grants which will ensure any grants made are equitable, proportionate, and made to genuine claims only. This will involve the establishment of a panel comprising members of the JFA to review all submitted claims.

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3. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING LEGISLATION REGARDING ENTRY TO RESTAURANTS AND PUBS FOR A PERSON ACCOMPANIED BY A GUIDE DOG:

Question

What current legislation, if any, exists to prevent restaurants and pubs refusing entry to a person accompanied by a guide dog?

Answer

There is no legislation in Jersey to prevent restaurants and pubs refusing entry to a person accompanied by a guide dog

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING STATISTICS OF THOSE FAILING TO ACTIVELY SEEK WORK:

Question

Will the Minister provide members with a breakdown of the reasons behind the 500 warnings issued to jobseekers for failing to actively seek work?

Would the Minister also provide a breakdown of those who were subject to sanctions (withdrawal of personal component) for a second or third breach along with the intervals between such breaches?

How many of these cases were appealed and found to be incorrectly applied? How many have been subject to complete withdrawal of benefits?

Will he also supply a suitably anonymised list of the71 "insufficiently good reasons" for leaving work which were also sanctioned and the length of employment in that job?

Will he further give details of those 10 cases where the application of sanctions was found to be invalid?

Does he believe that a 15% failure rate on these cases is satisfactory?

Do his departmental rules categorise the turning down of a zero-hours contract as reasonable for a jobseeker?

Answer

The Back to Work programme provides significant support to locally qualified jobseekers to both help them find and then stay in work. In 2013 Back to Work supported jobseekers to secure 1818 paid jobs.

It is simply not right that people should be able to rely on the taxpayer to fund their living costs when they are unwilling to uphold their end of the bargain and take reasonable steps to find work. This is why in October 2013 I introduced changes to Income Support legislation to strengthen the

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department's ability to sanction people who fail to look for work and a sanction to deter people from giving up work.

The Departments Determining Officers will issue a Warning Notice in accordance with Income Support legislation and internal guidance when a jobseeker has not actively sought work. Between 15th October 2013 and 30th March 2014 506 warnings were issued. The most common reasons for Warning Notices to be issued is as detailed below;

1. Failure to attend a prearranged appointment with the department.
2. Failure to attend a prearranged training event organised by the department.
3. Not producing enough evidence of Actively Seeking Work (ASW).

All of our employment support remains available throughout every stage of the process

Since the Income Support legislation was amended in October 2013 the following breach one, two and three ASW sanctions have been applied.

1. Confirmation of ASW breaches by breach type

2. Intervals  of the breaches  listed  by  breach,  the  3  columns  being  independent  and therefore do not reflect the history of any claim in the proceeding column:

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21 – 24

weeks 1

To date no ASW sanctions have been appealed and found to be incorrectly applied.

The total number of claimants who have not complied with Actively Seeking Work and have progressed to a breach 3 is 30. Under the previous sanctions regime we would have expected to see in the same period approximately 50 claims closed (average of 9 per month).

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I am firmly of the view that people should not believe that they can give up paid employment without good reason and rely on public funds to support them. In October last year I introduced a new sanction for people who leave work without good reason. This sanction removes the Income Support adult component for 13 weeks, although payments for rent and children are still available.

From mid-October 2013 to the end of March this year, 71 people have been subject to the new sanction. The reasons and lengths of employment prior to the giving up work sanction being imposed is as follows;

Not all of the individuals leaving work without good cause will have been placed into positions by Back to Work. However, to put these figures in context, over the same period between mid-October 2013 and March 2014, Back to Work supported jobseekers into nearly 1000 paid positions.

In 10 cases where this new sanction has been applied, claimants have subsequently provided further evidence (from the employer and/or the claimant) that was sufficient to change the outcome of the sanction decision. I do not see this as a failure rate – officers can only make decisions on the evidence presented before them at the time. This sanction only applies to the adult component and therefore other parts of the claim can still be paid once the claim is active.

I can advise that the Department does not apply different rules in relation to turning down an offer of  suitable  employment  if  that  employment  is  based  on  a  zero  hour's  contract.  Employment enhances  and  develops  skill  sets,  increases  socialisation  and  is  good  for  the  individual  and economy. Any employment opportunity is therefore encouraged and claimants are always better off financially in work.

5. DEPUTY  G.P.  SOUTHERN  OF  ST.  HELIER OF THE  CHIEF  MINISTER REGARDING RESULTS OF OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS (O.N.S.) DATA ON ZERO HOURS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM:

Question

Has the Chief Minister considered the latest Office for National Statistics data which estimates that there are 1.4m zero-hours (or no guaranteed hours) contracts in existence in the UK, up from 200,000 in 2011, along with the Resolution Foundation research which shows that zero-hours contracted workers are paid a lower hourly rate than other equivalent workers and that younger workers are disproportionally affected by these contracts?

In the light of these factors is he prepared to accelerate his own efforts to deliver his report on the local situation before the end of the year?

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Answer

Reporting on zero hour contracts in Jersey requires statistics from the Manpower Survey and Jersey Annual Social Survey, which will be available at the end of 2014, as planned. The Social Security Minister will then be in a position to consider and react, as necessary, to the use of zero hour contracts.

This timescale is in line with P.100/2013, as amended, and with the Social Security Minister's responses to previous questions (in particular, 8194 on 18th March 2014).

The results of these two surveys will provide a range of information, for example on the age profile of people on zero hour contracts, the industries in which they work, their household incomes and their views on zero hours contracts.

This information will enable us to compare Jersey data with that available in the United Kingdom. That includes data from the Resolution Foundation and the Office for National Statistics, the results of which have been noted.

6. DEPUTY  G.C.L.  BAUDAINS  OF  ST.  CLEMENT OF THE  MINISTER  FOR ECONOMIC  DEVELOPMENT REGARDING  THE  MONITORING  OF TRAWLING:

Question

Would the Minister describe whether his department monitors the night time trawling that takes place to the south and east of the Island, to ensure all relevant Laws and Regulations are being complied with and, if so, how and by what means?

Answer

By using modern technology, we monitor all trawling activity around Jersey to ensure that access arrangements are being adhered to. This is now done in more detail than ever before.

The primary form of monitoring involves officers using the European-wide Vessel Monitoring System (VMS). All trawlers over 12 metres in length are fitted with tamper proof satellite monitoring devices and officers monitor the information from this system on a daily basis.

Officers also utilise Automatic Identification System (AIS) to monitor trawler activity and have discrete access to a locally based version of the system showing all the access zones. Unlike VMS, this system is not mandatory, so is of less benefit.

Jersey Coastguard radar also gives coverage of areas to the south east of the Island and Fisheries Officers work closely with Jersey Coastguard to utilise this facility, which coupled with VMS, creates a very useful surveillance system.

Through agreements with other jurisdictions, Fisheries Officers are able to access electronic and paper logbook sheets from foreign vessels to check catch composition and gear type. Trawlers are routinely inspected at sea to ensure that fish sizes, trawl equipment etc. are compliant with local regulations.

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3. Oral Questions

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Chief Minister regarding the number of parking spaces provided at Cyril Le Marquand House:

How many parking spaces are provided at Cyril Le Marquand House and, if they are used by States Members, would the Chief Minister specify who is permitted to use them?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

There are 24 such parking spaces: 4 are allocated to Ministers, that is the Chief Minister, the Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Minister for Economic Development and the Minister for External Relations. Two are allocated to staff fleet cars and 18 are used by senior staff from the Chief Minister's Department, the Treasury and Economic Development.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I have no further questions and I thank him for the answer.

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

How many parking spaces are available for use by Ministers, Assistant Ministers, Chief Officers or other civil servants within the St. Helier Ring Road, and are they provided free of charge?

The Bailiff :

I do not think that relates to the question; it is far too far removed. I think you need to ask the question in advance on that, Senator, if you wish to.

2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister consider publishing not just for his department but also liaising with the Chief Minister so that a list of all public parking spaces for public sector employees can be made available, so that we know exactly which staff benefit from free parking as part of their terms and conditions, et cetera, and that we know that those who do not? So if a comparison could be made between all the different departments.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am loath to commit the Chief Minister on that, but I will pass on that request for information to him.

2. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding Le Geyt Centre Day services:

Will the Minister advise whether new referrals to Le Geyt Centre Day Services have been stopped and, if so, can she explain why and state how the department proposes to meet the future needs of people requiring access to day services?

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

The simple answer is no. I can assure the Assembly that new referrals to Le Geyt Centre have not been stopped and no referrals have been refused.

[9:45]

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the Minister respond to concerns of a constituent who states that: "I have had problems getting support for my daughter over the summer months, and this is due to staffing problems at Le Geyt

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basically struggling to cope with the amount of people requiring their service." Can she confirm whether or not there are staffing issues, resourcing issues and, over the summer period, whether parents and other carers have been told that the normal allocation has been reduced for that period?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I understand it, there is no particular change. It would be totally inappropriate for me to go into details of the specific client and family issues. All I can say is that the family are very welcome to come and talk to the staff, as happens very regularly. These are very challenging adults and the service will continue to raise demands because of their needs. These people, like everybody else, are living longer with their complex needs.

2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister inform the Assembly what priority this particular service carries within her budget and whether she has plans for the future to expand it to meet the needs?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Every service that we provide within Health and Social Services is a priority, because you are talking about health needs; whether it is an acute hospital or a community setting, it is all top priority. The budget within the Le Geyt Centre is just over £1 million, and there are 62 adults and their families that we look after. We regularly talk to the service users, because there is a special needs advisory panel, of which service users act as a voice for that body, and obviously officers are on that panel, as well as a service user forum, which comes under the auspices of the Assistant Chief Minister.

3. Deputy J.H. Young:

Would the Minister accept that resources for support services is, in fact, an action for which giving priority is very cost effective because, if there is any failure in this area, it would ultimately result in long-term costs falling upon the public? Would she accept that the support services, particularly day care for all adult groups, is very important in the long run?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Indeed. As I said, all services within Health and Social Services are our top priority; that is the whole emphasis of the White Paper: more care in the community. When you think back, 5, 10

years ago, most of these clients were perhaps in institutional care. Was that right? No, that was not right; it is important that they are part of the community and continue to be part of the community.

4. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

Would the Minister confirm that the Le Geyt Centre Day Service is able to provide the necessary support to all those in need?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I said, we have not refused any new referrals, and that demand will increase because we are an ageing population and, as with everyone else, their needs are there for the rest of their lives.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

The Minister has twice now said that all services supplied by her department are top priority. Surely at budget time there is some prioritisation and there are some bids for funding which do not succeed. You cannot have all services at top priority, surely. Would she reconsider that statement?

The Deputy of Trinity :

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Because we provide the health and social care for all Islanders, be it an old lady waiting for eye cataract treatment, be it in the community, like the Le Geyt Centre, and the good work that they do there, as well as services for young children, regarding the business plan, all requests for further involvement are sorted out as a business plan, and there is a business plan to do that.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can the Minister then account for the lack of prioritisation given to community dental services by her department?

The Bailiff :

No, that is drifting rather too far off the Le Geyt Day Centre, I think.

6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

The Minister has just said in answer to a question that no referrals have been refused, but can she confirm that referrals to day services are turning into care for service users?

The Deputy of Trinity :

It is difficult to say that no new referrals have been refused. Each package of care is a bespoke package of care for that individual. We are talking about high-level young adults and older adults with complex needs, so therefore each package is a bespoke package of care and it does come at a price, too.

7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Can the Minister confirm in writing to Members the service-users who have been refused care in day services because of lack of resources, please?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I have just said that we have not refused anyone, so I cannot understand why a letter .. because it is a bespoke package of care and every client has got their own specific needs.

8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

If there is a question of shortage of funds for the Le Geyt Day Centre, why is the Minister wasting resources on projects which cannot be policed, such as smoking in cars or energy reviews in private houses?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The budget for Le Geyt is just over £1 million plus, if there is anyone with a particular bespoke package of care, that will have to be put in place. As I said, each bespoke package of care, including Le Geyt, can cost well over £100,000 per client. As I said before, if they were in institutional care, obviously that cost is lower because being in institutional care comes at a cheaper price. That is not the way to go forward because they are part of the community and need to be treated as such.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

It seems that the message coming from clients I have spoken to is that there are issues going on with respite, to do with reduction in services, difficulty in getting referrals. This issue about respite care, particularly as children move into adulthood, is an issue that comes up time and time again, and has done during this Minister's tenure. Will she take decisive steps so that these constituents, who are not by nature prone to complaining and who deal, as the Minister has said, with very challenging circumstances, can have security going forward to know that respite will be invested in? If new funds are needed to provide these services, will she approach the Minister for Treasury

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and Resources and the Chief Minister and make sure that a long-term package for respite is put forward which can be workable?

The Deputy of Trinity :

There was some investment within respite within the White Paper for Respite Care, and that is being worked through and about to be delivered. As I said it is important that there is a users' forum and it is talking about those specific issues that the Deputy raises, within that forum, because the voices of the people that need the care is important, so together we can plan the future needs.

3. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the serving of disconnection notices by Jersey Water following non-payment of utility bills:

The context of this question is that I am a committee member of the J.S.P.C.A. (Jersey Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals). In light of the receipt by the J.S.P.C.A. of a disconnection notice from Jersey Water dated 28th April 2014, which was sent in relation to an invoice dated 27th March 2014, would the Minister, as representative of the shareholders, state whether all States- owned or controlled utilities send disconnection notices after 30 days and, if so, is this appropriate when certain consultations have to take place before any disconnection is allowed?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Sir, I am asking my Assistant Minister to answer this question; he is in charge of credit control.

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):

We are unable to comment specifically with regards to utilities' individual client situations. Jersey Water would be unable to share this information with us for data protection reasons, however, I am advised that Jersey Water have attempted to make contact on a number of occasions since the 30- day notice with the J.S.P.C.A., and indeed with Deputy Power, and have not been successful to date. I am further advised that at Jersey Water there is a robust procedure in place for debt recovery; further, that in no circumstances would an account be disconnected when just 30 days overdue without further efforts by Jersey Water to contact the account holder and establish the reasons for the late payment. With regards to the other utilities, none of them disconnect after 30 days and they all have varying terms of credit control.

1. Deputy S. Power:

The Assistant Minister may not be aware of it, but the Chief Executive of the J.S.P.C.A. and myself have spoken to Jersey Water briefly. Would the Minister agree that there is an element of aggression now creeping into payment collection within States utilities and that that is not appropriate in the case of certain bills served on people who are not on the same scale of operation as the J.S.P.C.A.? Does he not think that the serving of a disconnection notice within 30 days is utterly inappropriate?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

With all due respect to the good Deputy , if people paid their bills on time then 30-day notices would not be issued, but I must reiterate the utilities do not disconnect .. for example with Jersey Water, their policy is very successful in the sense that the amount of actual disconnections out of the 120,000 users on their database is a mere 170 per annum, which is 0.01 per cent. So their systems are robust, they have been like this for some time, and it really is up to their customers to

21

ensure that, if they have difficulties in making payments, they contact the various utilities to discuss effective ways of paying their account.

The Bailiff :

I will come back to you, Deputy . Deputy Baudains?

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

The Assistant Minister spoke about people paying their bills on time, but if I look at these dates, I notice the invoice was dated 27th March, so the organisation would not have received it possibly until the end of the month. As a businessman, I am used to paying my accounts at the end of each month, so that would have rolled over; in fact, it would probably only have just been paid by the time that the utility was sending the disconnection notice out. Does the Assistant Minister think that is reasonable?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

As I have explained, the system is a robust system, it allows an adequate notice, and therefore customers can pay in a timely fashion.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Is the Assistant Minister familiar with business? Deputy E.J. Noel:

Probably more so than the Deputy .

3. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :

Given we are talking about a quango, call it what you will, it being one of our responsibilities, do the States themselves - their departments - pay their accounts within the 28-day period?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

All States departments operate within the terms and conditions they have with the utility suppliers.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

When somebody has their water cut off because they do not have enough money to pay the bill and then they are asked to pay an additional sum in order to get reconnected, how does that help the individual get out of their debt and also be able to drink, wash and feed their children with water?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

The Deputy makes a good point but, in reality, that circumstance is highly unlikely to happen because the utilities, and particularly Jersey Water in this case - providing there is a willingness to pay, on even on a structured payment system - would not cut-off those individuals. There is protection there, they are not going to see Islanders, with families or without families, cut-off for the inability to pay. There is a safety net there.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

A supplementary: I certainly know of cases, as I am sure we all do, where that has happened and families have called us up and had to borrow water off neighbours, et cetera. Will the Minister answer a more fundamental question as to whether he thinks access to clean water, drinkable water, is a basic human right?

[10:00]

Deputy E.J. Noel:

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Of course I agree it is a basic human right, no one would say otherwise, but what the Deputy is neglecting to mention is that we have an income support system and part of those income support payments are to cover people's utility bills. There is a safety net there; Islanders should be encouraged to use it.

6. Deputy S. Power:

The Assistant Minister should have told Deputy Tadier that Jersey Water cannot disconnect without the consultation of local Constables and the Health Department. My final question is this: the Assistant Minister stated that if people paid their bills on time they would not be served final notices or disconnection notices. As Deputy Baudains pointed out, this was served on Thursday, 28th March, which was at a weekend, and we did not receive it until later. Does the Minister not agree that serving a disconnection notice within the 30 days of a month-end is inappropriate? Would he not agree that this aggression in States utilities is utterly inappropriate? Answer the question, please, Assistant Minister.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I do not believe it is aggressive, it is good business and perhaps, if the body that the Deputy is a trustee of would care to switch to a direct debit basis, then they would not have this problem.

4. The Connétable of St. John of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the impact of the recent Royal Court decision intheactionbetweentheMinister, the States of Jersey Development Company and Harcourt and others on the development of the Esplanade Quarter:

The Bailiff :

Very well. Now, the next question arises out of a Royal Court decision which I personally gave, so I think it would be easier for everyone if the Greffier would just preside for that question, so I will ask the Greffier to take over briefly.

The Connétable of St. John :

In light of the recent Royal Court decision in the action between the Minister, the States of Jersey Development Company and Harcourt and others, would the Minister state whether this creates a conflict for the States when dealing with potential clients for the Esplanade Quarter and, if so, who is now representing the States interests and will this decision prevent the development from moving forward before the case is settled?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Standing Orders say that matters ought not to be raised when there is an issue of an ongoing court case, so I have obviously taken advice in the answer, but you will direct me or stop me where I am going too far in answering, if this is appropriate. But I have got to, of course, attempt to answer the Connétable 's question.

The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):

You did pre-empt what I might have needed to have said, Minister, which is clearly the questions about the manner in which the States will be represented. Now, it is not about the merits of the court case; you cannot go into matters that are before the court.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Indeed, Sir, but what I will say is the Royal Court's recent decision was, effectively, a preliminary decision on the degree of weakness of the case and, therefore, it does not create any problems for

23

the continued development of the Esplanade Quarter, as I am sure the Connétable has read from the judgment, and the court's decision is clear. In his summing up, the judge said that he saw the plaintiffs having considerable difficulty, so I do not say anything else apart from repeating what is in the judgment. As the Royal Court's decision is referred to and we are appealing that, I should not be commenting on the case any further than that. Suffice it to say that it is not an impediment for the Esplanade Quarter in continuing the good work that it is carrying on.

1. The Connétable of St. John :

Will the Minister consider asking the J.D.C. (Jersey Development Company) to sit around the table with himself and Harcourt and try and resolve the issue and see if they could not move forward? Possibly that way the taxpayers' money and time might be saved as, in these types of scenarios, the only people who generally win are the lawyers.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

This is an interesting question because I do not feel that I can discuss ongoing court cases and the merits, but I can say it is curious that the plaintiffs, perhaps through the Connétable in his asking of questions, feel they need to raise this issue in the States Assembly prior to an appeal, prior to hearing of the case, and suggesting that they are worried about what might happen in the actual claim in the further courts. These issues are best dealt with by the courts. The Treasury's position is clear: we have a strong case and it has no particular concern personally for me, but I do not think it is appropriate to be having discussions with counterparties, and that is certainly the advice that I have received.

2. Deputy J.H. Young:

The Minister in his answer criticises the question, suggesting almost that there is some motive. That troubles me. I know nothing about this case, but will the Minister not accept that this judgment is now in the public domain and these questions have been raised? He says it is not an impediment; surely will the Minister not reflect that if there is now going to be a full-blown court case, that carries costs, that must impact on the development? Surely he accepts there is an issue there to be dealt with that has potential consequences?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I would encourage the Deputy .. I am more than happy to answer questions on these issues, and Deputy Maçon sent the judgment round for Members to read. If Deputy Young has not had an opportunity of reading it, perhaps he should. The Royal Court described the plaintiffs' case as weak, but not sufficiently weak that it could be struck-out at an early stage of proceedings. As I have said, the decision is subject to an appeal and the Court of Appeal will be invited to reconsider whether this claim should survive an application to strike it out. That is the position. I would say that, notwithstanding the likelihood or otherwise of the success of the litigation, frankly, that has got nothing to do with S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) continuing to .. and I think I have got other questions from the Deputy on the exciting possibilities of delivering S.o.J.D.C.'s aspirations: delivering quality office space to increasing demand to secure Jersey's economic future. That is the job they have been given, let them get on with it. This case will run its course through the courts.

3. Deputy J.H. Young:

I take the Minister's advice that I have not had the opportunity to go through the judgment, but he says he relies on it and that the judgment says that the plaintiffs' case is weak. Having had some background in working for law firms, I know that, notwithstanding whether a case is strong or weak, legal costs mount up and potentially that may result in some cost to the taxpayer. Surely that is a matter which the public are entitled to know about?

24

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Yes, and I wish the court case was not being brought and, clearly, that the Minister for Treasury and Resources was not in a position to have to defend what is a weak case. There would be a situation that there would be an attempt, if it were a strong case, for one to settle it, but that is not in the interests .. we are not bringing the litigation, the other party is. It is interesting that they want discussions before the matters go forward; Members can read into that for themselves. I just do not think it is appropriate to deal with a litigious entity that is trying to take a matter to court, we have to defend ourselves and I have to do what is in the public interest, and the public interest is to defend robustly. If I may say, the Minister for Treasury and Resources is being given legal advice by the Solicitor General, and I have full confidence in the Solicitor General's abilities to be able to defend the States interests and the interests of the Minister for Treasury and Resources.

4. The Connétable of St. John :

It has been publically reported that the amended Order of Justice submitted by Harcourt goes on to plea that W.E.B.'s (Waterfront Enterprise Board) breach of contract was induced by the Minister. Clearly, this is a serious allegation that the developer would not make lightly, and it is surely of great concern to the Assembly that one of its Ministers has been put in this position. What is the Minister's response to this?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

This is extraordinary. The Connétable is reading from a script, he is not a lawyer; presumably he is getting this information from somewhere, so perhaps it is up to him to reflect .. clearly he has got some typed notes, but it is a matter for him. This issue is a legal issue being raised in the courts. I have properly been advised, S.o.J.D.C. has been properly advised; let the courts decide on the merits of the case. This should not be an issue of politics and me having to, effectively, try to get politics involved in settling what is, for me, a strong position that the States has. Moreover, the suggestions of discussions of getting around the table; I have been asked to get around the table with the plaintiffs on a number of occasions and, clearly, the advice that I have had is that would not be appropriate and to leave it to the experts. The Connétable of St. John is not an expert; I do not know where he is getting his information from. Leave the courts to decide.

Senator L.J. Farnham :

Sorry, Sir. May I just say I could not help but feel rather uncomfortable during that exchange. I am not sure if the Minister for Treasury and Resources is suggesting that the Constable was getting his information .. or acting on behalf of another party. Would the Constable be prepared to confirm that he is not acting directly on behalf of Harcourt? I am sure he is not, but I think that needs to be quite clear.

The Connétable of St. John :

I am not acting on behalf of anybody other than the public of Jersey. I have read the court findings ..

The Greffier of the States (in the Chair): Very well, you have clarified that.

5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence of the Chief Minister regarding the publication of the Dame Heather Steel report:

25

Further to his response of 4th March 2014, does the Chief Minister have any further information as to when the Dame Heather Steel report is likely to be released into the public domain, in relation, obviously, to the Dean.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

The Bishop of Winchester has very recently received the finalised form of Dame Heather Steel's report and should now, in accordance with paragraph 10 of the terms of reference, supply a copy of the report to anyone against whom disciplinary action is recommended and to the Bailiff , the Dean, and the Ministry of Justice. He should also provide a report fairly shortly to Bishop John Gladwin, who is conducting an inquiry in relation to the adequacy of safeguarding arrangements in the Church of England in Jersey. I have to say, it is understood that the Bishop is not intending to bring any disciplinary action against any clergy in Jersey. Under paragraph 13 of the terms of reference: "After the conclusion of any recommended disciplinary proceedings, the Bishop of Winchester is obliged to publish the report or a summary of its findings and conclusions although, where necessary the report may be summarised and/or redacted for legal reasons or to protect the identity of any person who features in the report who has provided relevant information to the investigation." That is a quote from paragraph 13 of the terms of reference. I am unable to say how soon the Bishop of Winchester will fulfil that obligation or in what precise form the information will be provided.

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Thank you to the Minister for his response, and I think my question is in the event that things do not progress swiftly. Very recently, the Archbishop of Canterbury publicly stated that: "Any time the Church does not serve people in the way it should have done, it has to be very open about that." He also stated: "In order to understand the details surrounding the position of the Dean, one would have to look at the legal reports that have been made." I think, on that basis, one might express some concern that one might only ever see a summary of the findings. Given those statements, and this commitment of the Archbishop of Canterbury to open this, on behalf of the Chief Minister, will the Minister commit that he will write to the Archbishop of Canterbury if we do not see a summary or the report soon that, as the worldwide head of the Anglican Church, he will seek an undertaking from the Archbishop of Canterbury that he will adhere to those commitments and therefore will ensure that the Dame Heather Steel report is placed into the public domain soon?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Again, I am always loath to commit the Chief Minister in his absence; I am sure Members will understand that. I know that the Chief Minister is of the opinion that it is important that the details of the report are made public; that is my own view also. I have in detail quoted paragraph 13 of the terms of reference, which do enable a certain amount of redaction and the production of a résumé. If, of course, that, when produced, was unsatisfactory, then I have no doubt that the Chief Minister will be urging the appropriate authorities to ensure that the essential information is made public.

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

Connected to some of the same issues as the Dame Heather Steel report is the Glenys Johnston report. Does the Minister know if that will be released into the public domain at any point soon?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

No, I am afraid I do not. Obviously, I have been briefed specially in relation to such matters and my briefing did not go into the date as to when that is anticipated.

[10:15]

3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

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Will the Minister acknowledge that the woman known as H.G. was not interviewed for either the Dame Heather Steel report or the Glenys Johnston report and, given that fact and how central she is to the story behind these reports, would he agree with me that the reports cannot be worth the paper they are written on if she was not interviewed?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Frankly, I do not know whether or not she was interviewed; I have not been intimately involved in relation to the preparation of either of these. It is, I think, a matter for those who are producing the reports to determine whether it is necessary to interview a particular person or whether they have sufficient information from other sources.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

In addition to the request of Deputy Le Fondré that the Chief Minister try and get the reports published, will the Chief Minister also be asked to press for Dame Heather Steel to honour her commitment that she would provide a transcript to former Deputy Bob Hill, who met with her regarding her investigations and also which she has reneged on, and therefore the suspicion is that her report cannot be independent if she will not give the information that she promised to give. So in other words, the transcript of her meeting with former Deputy Bob Hill; would he press for that to be released as well?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Well, I can give no such assurance because that is entirely a matter for the Chief Minister, but I think we are going into difficult areas here because the Dame Heather Steel report was not a report that was commissioned by the Chief Minister, it was commissioned by the Disciplinary Board on behalf of the Bishop of Winchester. So it is as little bit difficult to see how the Chief Minister has control of such matters.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Would the Minister also agree that the conduct of all parties so far, with regard to reports and information and transparency, reflects very badly on the Church of England and the whole process of the investigation?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am personally highly critical of the approach which has been taken by the Bishop of Winchester in relation to this matter, I think he is very seriously at fault in relation to the way he initially dealt with the matter, but I do not think I am prepared to criticise the Church of England as a whole in relation to the matter.

6. Deputy M. Tadier :

There is an issue in that Deputy Higgins asked the Deputy Chief Minister simply if he would seek to contact Dame Heather Steel to see if she could give the information that she said she would give. Simply because the Chief Minister is not here does not mean that the Deputy Chief Minister is not acting for him. So will he acquiesce to that very simple request to send an email, either himself or via one of the officers or the Chief Minister, to ask what is going on and whether there is any truth in this suggestion that the information has not been released?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

The Chief Minister is, of course, back tomorrow. I do not think it is appropriate for me to start blundering around in the midst of this, but I will ..

Deputy M. Tadier :

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The Minister is doing very well already blundering around during this question time. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am doing my best to achieve some information and some light, but I will happily ensure that the requests of Deputy Higgins and others are passed on to the Chief Minister for his consideration.

7. The Connétable of Grouville :

There seems to be a lot of secrecy over this issue, for example, the agreement that transfers the ecclesiastical oversight of the Deanery of Jersey from the Bishop of Winchester to the Bishop of Dover clearly has constitutional implications for the people of Jersey. Would the Assistant Minister ask the Chief Minister if he could publish this agreement, or perhaps find some other way of presenting it to the House?

The Bailiff :

I think that is straying a little bit outside the question. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am very happy to answer that one, Sir; I did anticipate that one and I think it would be helpful. I can inform Members of the Assembly that on 28th April the Chief Minister wrote to the Bishop of Dover urging him indeed to take a more transparent approach in relation to the terms of that agreement. I have a copy of it before me. The Chief Minister is of the opinion there really is nothing very secret in it and that there is no reason it should not be made public, so he is certainly urging the appropriate authorities to also take the same view.

The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

Sir, may I give a point of information, which may help the Assembly? The Bailiff :

Well, it is question time ..

The Dean of Jersey:

Well, fine, okay. That is fine. I have the report of the .. not the report, I would love to have the report. I have the agreement, it is not secret. Should any Member wish to come and see me, I will gladly let them read it.

8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

That is interesting, given the transparency issue. Given the very rapid release of the Korris Review in full, and on particular online, just to put it in context, versus the perceived delay relating to the Dame Heather Steel report, does the Deputy Chief Minister agree that there may be a perception, if there is further delay or lack of full disclosure of the report, that pressure might have been applied in order to water down the contents of the Dame Heather Steel report?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Under the terms of reference, it is quite clear under Article 13 that the Bishop now has a period of time in which to consider the manner in which the information contained in the report should be put out in the public domain. I do not think it is unreasonable that he be given that time. If there were excessive delay, I think it is fair to say that there would be strong suspicion that he had something to hide.

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6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Chief Minister regarding the introduction of the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011 in the Island from January 2015:

Does the Chief Minister consider that adequate progress is being made by States departments to introduce the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011 in the Island from January 2015, and is he satisfied that it, together with the proposed amendments to the Data Protection (Jersey) Law 2005, will lead to greater transparency in the public sector?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

Very good progress is being made and both the Chief Minister's Department and various States departments are treating this as a high priority and are reasonably confident that the January 2015 date will be achievable for most of the bodies set out in the first schedule. However, it is right that I indicate to the Members of the States that it is not going to be possible to achieve that for all the bodies set out in the first schedule and that the Chief Minister will fairly shortly be bringing Regulations to the States to remove certain items from that schedule, for the time being, so that the January 2015 date can be achieved for the vast majority. I am happy to take further questions and go into details on that. I am expecting that there will be greater transparency in accordance with the law, partly because departments are likely in the future to put much more information which they have into the public domain and partly because members of the public are likely to be more aware of their rights to obtain information.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I would like the Minister to give us a bit more detail about what is going to be omitted, or suggest it be omitted in a moment, but is the Minister aware of the fact that some departments are shredding data and that advice is being given: "If you do not want it going out there, get rid of it." Recently, at a meeting of Deputies in St. Helier, we were advised that this is the information that some departments had been advised to do. In other words, go through their information, get rid of it. Is that a way of achieving transparency or is it just hiding some of the problems of the past?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

There is no secret of the fact that the records of many departments are not in very good order and that they are having to get their records into proper order. In so doing, decisions have been made as to what will be kept and what will not be kept. Now, the method that has been adopted has been by means of what are called retention schedules which are agreed with the archivist as to which documents should be retained. That is the process which has been adopted in relation to that. There is nothing wrong with that. My own former department of Judicial Greffe had huge amounts of information going back to the year dot, in the times when I was Greffier, all over the place. I know things have much improved since then but, in reality, you have to concentrate on what you need to keep and what is important to keep. In relation to the first half of the question, schedule 1 deals with the following matters ..

The Bailiff :

Minister, I am sorry, but how long is this? I think probably it would be better to circulate it in writing. Would you be happy for that?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I would be very happy to do that, yes, Sir.

2. Deputy J.H. Young:

Would the Minister remind us whether or not there is a responsibility for government departments under the Public Records Law to ensure that records do get safeguarded for the long term, and is he

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satisfied that we are fully meeting that obligation and there is no danger of stuff disappearing before it gets there?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am afraid that the Public Records Law is one of those laws which the States passed in a moment of enthusiasm without providing the necessary resources to put it into effect. I think that all Members know that, in fact, it has never effectively been put into effect, but what is now happening as part of the Freedom of Information process, is departments are now determining what it is appropriate for them to keep in consultation, as I say, with the archivist. I think that will be very much of an improvement. There is no point in having masses of information you have no idea where it is, or you cannot access it.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Sir, can I clarify: does that answer mean that we can, as it were, kiss goodbye to public records, as what he has said in the future for history purposes?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

No, that is the whole point of ensuring that that which should be kept, is being kept.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

Does the Minister accept that, if we are having a judgment call as to what information will be kept and not, then the issue is that we do not know, in the future when we have a full Freedom of Information Act, what information will be requested. Simply for someone to turn up and say: "I am afraid that bit of information was shredded 5 years ago because someone took the decision that it was not relevant" is not really satisfactory, especially if you are being told to shred things by somebody higher up the command chain. So will the Minister really look at the issue and find out.. nowadays in the electronic era, we should really be able to put most things in an electronic format; unless, of course, they really are pieces of information which are very unlikely to be called upon in the future.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am perfectly happy with the arrangements which are being proposed but, again, I am very happy to pass on the concerns of the Deputy to the Chief Minister.

4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

The Minister said that the Public Records Law was brought in without being followed up properly. Is he aware that, as long ago as 10 years ago, the Archive Department was working with Parishes and other authorities already building retention schedules and examining carefully, not haphazardly as some Members have said, what needs to be retained and what does not, and that this good guidance has been followed through to this day?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

No, I was not aware of that and I am very grateful to the Connétable for providing Members with that information.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Can the Minister tell us what safeguards are in place and what betting there is going on to make sure that inappropriate material is not being shredded? By "inappropriate" I mean things that could be potentially embarrassing for Ministers or departments. Who is safeguarding the process of destruction of documents to make sure that inappropriate documents are not shredded?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

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My understanding is that matters have been agreed with the archivist; it is therefore up to departments to ensure that they are going to deal with matters in accordance with the retention schedules. Obviously, if there was information in any individual department that that was not happening, that information should be passed to senior officers, or indeed to the responsible Minister in order that they may ensure that what is happening is in accordance with the arrangements agreed.