States Meeting Transcript - 22nd September 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

MONDAY, 22nd SEPTEMBER 2014

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................6

1. The Bailiff :..............................................................................6

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

2. Written Questions........................................................................6

1. SENATOR A. BRECKON OF TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING DWELLING HOUSES LOAN FUND WITHDRAWALS IN EACH OF THE LAST 10 YEARS:..................................................6
2. SENATOR A. BRECKON OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING WHEN PRESENTATIONS WERE MADE TO POTENTIAL INVESTORS REGARDING THE ISSUE OF A £250 MILLION BOND:...............7
3. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING WASTE DISPOSAL CHARGES APPLIED TO ALL THIRD SECTOR CHARITIES:........................8
4. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING CHARGES FOR PLANING APPLICATIONS FOR ALL THIRD SECTOR CHARITIES: ..............................................8
5. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE PROMOTION OF THE EMPLOYMENT OF OLDER SKILLED LOCAL RESIDENTS: ..................................................................8
6. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SPEED LIMITS ACROSS THE ISLAND: ................................................................9
7. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SEA DEFENCES AND THE MONITORING OF SEA LEVELS:..............................................11
8. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE DRAINAGE WORKS AT SNOW HILL:............................................................11
9. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE CHAIRMAN OF PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF MEMBERS' ATTENDANCE LEVELS:...............................................12
10. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING CLINICAL WAITING TIMES:..................12
11. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDR OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN THE INCOME FORECASTS COMPARED TO THOSE INCLUDED IN THE MEDIUM TERM FINANCIAL PLAN:

15

12. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDR OFTHE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING WHEN STATES MEMBERS WERE INFORMED OF THE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN INCOME FORECASTS:......................16
13. DEPUTY J.H. YOUNG OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE SUBSTANTIAL INCREASE IN THE BUDGET FORECAST IN STATES INCOME IN 2016 AND 2017 COMPARED WITH THE LATEST FORECAST FOR 2014: ................................................18

3. Oral Questions...........................................................................21

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the communication with complainants under the States members Code of Conduct:.......................................................................21 Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee): ......21

1. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................22
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................22
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22
4. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu of St. Helier:....................................................23
5. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................23
6. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................24

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the prosecution of cyber-bullies:...........................................................................24 Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):.............................24

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................24
2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................25
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................25

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the extension of the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011 to agencies like Andium Homes:......25 Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):.............................25

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................26
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................26
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................26
4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................27
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27

6. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................27
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................27
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................27
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................28

4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the use of the rental income from States' tenants:............................28 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):.............................................................................28

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
4. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................29
5. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................29
6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................30
7. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................30
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................30

9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................30
11. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................31

5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the worsening of the income position compared to the figures included in the Budget:.....31 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................31

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................32
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................32
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................33
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................33
6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................33

6. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the variances reported by the States Income Monitoring Reports for July and August 2014: ..........34 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................34

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................35
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................35
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................36

7. Connétable P.J. Rondel ofSt. John of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding hospital waiting times to see specialists in all departments:..................37 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................37

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................37
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................37
3. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................38

8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding whether the States had a structural deficit:.......................................................38 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................38

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................39
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................40
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................40
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................41
5. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................41
6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................42

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Social Security regarding measures to reduce the cost of G.P. services to residents:............................................42 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................42

3.9.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................43

10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the standard of treatment which stroke patients receive at Overdale:........................43 Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................43

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................43
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................44
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................44
4. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................44
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................45

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for External Relations.........45

1. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................45 Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations);...............................45

1. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................45
   2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................46
   3. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................46
      4. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................46
   4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................47
   5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................47

4.6.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................48

7. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................48
8. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................48

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Home Affairs ..............49

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................49 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................49

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................49
   2. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................49

5.2.1 Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................49

3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................50
4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................50
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................51
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................51

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................52

6. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2015).............................................52

6.1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................52

2. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.) - as amended..................................................................................59

6.2.1 Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................60

3. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.) – second amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.Amd.(2))................................................62

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................62
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................64
3. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................64
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................65

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................65 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................65

5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................66
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................67
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................68
8. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................68
9. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................68
10. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:...................................................69
11. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................70
12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................70

4. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.) - as amended..................................................................................73

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................73

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................73
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................75
4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................76
5. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................76
6. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................77

7. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................77
8. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................78
9. Deputy E.J. Noel: ......................................................................78
10. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................78

5. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): third amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.(3)) 81

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................81
2. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:.................................................................83
3. Deputy E.J. Noel: ......................................................................83
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................85
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................87
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................89
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................89
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................90

9. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................90
10. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................91
11. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................92
12. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................92

6. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): second amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.(2)) ...........................................................................................95

6.6.1 Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................95

7. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): second amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.(2))

– amendment (P.129.2014 Amd.(2)Amd.)..............................................96

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................96
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................99
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................99
4. Deputy J.H. Young:...................................................................100
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :.................................................................100

8. Draft Budget Statement 2015 (P.129/2014): second amendment (P.129/2014 Amd.(2)) - as amended.............................................................................102

1. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ......................................................102
2. The Deputy of St. Ouen:..............................................................103
3. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier:....................................................103
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :.................................................................103
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:.............................................................104
6. Deputy J.H. Young:...................................................................104

[9:31]

The Roll was called and the Greffier of the States led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Bailiff :

Well, on this the last meeting before the elections I am particularly pleased to welcome His Excellency to the sitting.  [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

2. Written Questions

1. SENATOR  A.  BRECKON  OF  TO  THE  MINISTER  FOR TREASURY  AND RESOURCES REGARDING DWELLING HOUSES LOAN FUND WITHDRAWALS IN EACH OF THE LAST 10 YEARS:

Question

Will the Minister provide details of the payments in and out of the Dwelling Houses Loan Fund in each of the last 10 years and state what the funds that were withdrawn were used for?

Answer

The following is a summary of the receipts and payment transactions into and out of the Fund, as published in the States Annual Financial Statements for the financial years ending 31 December 2003 to 31 December 2013. There are many borrowers whose residential dwellings are partly financed by way of loans issued from the Dwelling Houses Loan Fund.

In this response to the question, the following assumptions have been made:-

1. It is assumed that the question does not require details shown for each individual borrower payment/receipt to be summarised at an individual borrower level due to the volume of these transactions.
2. Information provided has been prepared with the best information available, but may be not wholly accurate due to the ability to extract historic information in a short space of time.
3. This reflects cash receipts and payments but does not include investment returns which may be either realised or unrealised.

2. SENATOR A. BRECKON OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING WHEN PRESENTATIONS WERE MADE TO POTENTIAL INVESTORS REGARDING THE ISSUE OF A £250 MILLION BOND:

Question

On what dates were the presentations made to potential investors regarding the issue of a £250 million bond?

What advice had the Minister received on these dates and was he fully aware of the Island's financial position at that time?

Answer

The presentations were made to potential investors on 27th May 2014 to 30th May 2014 in Jersey, Edinburgh and London, based on the public prospectus published on 27th May 2014.

The presentations were organised by the appointed joint book runners. They arranged the bond issuance, which included the presentations, from start to finish and provided advice throughout the process. The Treasury was also supported by its appointed legal advisers and financial adviser throughout the process.

The Minister acts upon the advice of officials and takes no part in the formal income forecasting process.

The independent Income Tax Forecasting Group (ITFG) meets each year and agrees the income tax forecast which then informs that year's annual Budget. A report is issued by the Economics Unit to assist in formalising the forecast position as decided by the ITFG.

The report written to inform the Budget 2014 was issued in September 2013 and included a projected downgrade in income tax forecasts for 2014 of £13 million and £26 million for 2015 compared to the MTFP figure.

A copy of this report was issued to States Members prior to the debate on the draft Budget 2014.

As explained, whilst the discussions of the ITFG continued, the Minister was aware of the income forecasts now included in the Draft Budget 2015 at the time of the roadshows, although they had not been finalised at the end of May and were still subject to dissenting opinion and requests for more work, because of the previous year's outturn. Those forecasts were formally agreed at the ITFG meeting of 30th June 2014, which was chaired by the Chief Executive at the request of the Minister for Treasury and Resources.

The Ministerial team, of course, takes a personal and active interest in the whole range of available statistics, constantly published locally and internationally, which inform them, their advisors, the public and commentators on the broad trends of economic activity, which can affect growth, jobs and income.

The Minister has included numerous statements throughout his term of office that the Government and States continue to need to focus and deliver on reforms to make further savings and boost income, which limits the need for tax increases.

3. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING WASTE DISPOSAL CHARGES APPLIED TO ALL THIRD SECTOR CHARITIES:

Question

Can the Minister inform members whether charges for the disposal of clinical waste, green waste and other waste disposal charges are applied evenly to all third sector charities and can he provide details of any charities that have exemptions for any or all of these charges?

Answer

There is no blanket exemption for disposal charges to charities. Some charges have been waived for charities and this has happened on a case by case basis following a request from the charity to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

The charges waived are:-

Jersey Battle of Flowers Green waste disposal following the Battle of Flowers.

Les Amis Green waste disposal for waste generated from domestic work on own houses. Jersey Hospice Care Green waste disposal for Christmas tree initiative and inert waste

disposal for crockery.

4. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING CHARGES FOR PLANING APPLICATIONS FOR ALL THIRD SECTOR CHARITIES:

Question

Can the Minister confirm if charges for planning applications are applied evenly to all third sector charities and can he provide details of any charities that have exemptions for any or all of these planning application charges?

Answer

I can confirm that charges for planning (and building) applications are applied consistently to all third sector charities and I have not approved any exemptions from these charges to any charities in my period of office.

5. DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE PROMOTION OF THE EMPLOYMENT OF OLDER SKILLED LOCAL RESIDENTS:

Question

Does the Chief Minister share my view that the employment, part-time or otherwise, of the so called "silver skillset", that is those people born here or living in Jersey who are of retirement age but who may wish to carry on some type of employment even in a part-time capacity, would help in some employment sectors to control net inward migration and, if so, is he working with the Minister for Social Security to promote the employment of these skilled local residents?

Answer

Our older population has much to offer and we need to make the transition from full time employment to part-time self-employment or retirement as flexible as possible. This will help older Islanders to stay active and maintain their standard of living.

This issue is highlighted by the Skills Board, one of whose aims is to ensure that older residents have the current skills and opportunities necessary to continue to be productive members of the Island's workforce.

Social Security, through Back to Work, has been concentrating on younger and long term unemployed islanders during a period of high unemployment. However, as our society ages we will need to focus on developing programmes for older people who are seeking work.

I support these initiatives and will certainly work with the next Social Security Minister if I am re- elected as Chief Minister.

6. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SPEED LIMITS ACROSS THE ISLAND:

Question

Given the number of different speed limits being introduced across the Island, would the Minister clarify the current policy and criteria used in calculating appropriate speed limits on roads under the department's control and further state whether the department monitors the success (or otherwise) of implementing 20 mph and 30 mph limits on those roads?

Answer

In accordance with the policy set out in P1/2004, the following broad speed limit categories are applied, subject to site specific reviews where lower  limits could be deemed appropriate and applied due to site specific road safety improvements and / or collision history.

• A 40mph speed limit on all roads not subject to a lower speed limit
• A 30mph speed limit for all vehicles with a laden weight of 3.5t or over on all roads with a 40mph speed limit
• A 30mph speed limit on all roads in the urban / built-up area, as guided by the Island Plan, and not subject to a lower speed limit
• A 20mph speed limit, to be considered on a case by case basis, for primarily residential roads on non-main routes, where pedestrian and cyclist movements are high, such as around schools, shops, markets, playgrounds, residential estates, tourist areas and other areas
• A part time 20mph speed limit, electronically signed, around schools not subject to a permanent 20 mph
• A 15mph speed limit for all roads designated with Green Lane status

In addition, TTS has a programme of village centre improvements providing traffic calming and streetscape improvements such as is currently under construction in St Aubin. Further village centre treatments are in development for St Mary, St John and St Lawrence. These schemes will make the areas safer, less car dominant and more pedestrian and cyclist friendly. Traffic speeds will be reduced principally through physical measures, rather than through enforcement and I have, as a complimentary measure, introduced 20 mph limits at St Aubin, St Mary and Ville es Renauds, Grouville as part of that process.

The above broad speed limit categories aim to ensure that speed limits are set in a consistent way that drivers understand and which promote road safety. It should however be noted that drivers have a responsibility to drive carefully and safely, in accordance with the prevailing conditions on any road, which can often mean travelling at speeds considerably lower than the posted maximum limit. A speed limit is not a target speed.

Guidance indicates that existing traffic speeds must be close to the proposed speed limit, to ensure compliance. If speeds are too high, then other measures may be considered to physically control speeds in exceptional cases where a speed limit reduction is recommended for safety reasons.

However, the desire for lower speeds has to be balanced against the need for reasonable journey times and the position of the road within the roads hierarchy. TTS aim to set speed limits that take the above factors into account and allow vehicles to travel at an appropriate speed for the main use of the road. Therefore in addition to the broad speed limit categories a number of site specific factors are taken into account in the assessment of a road or area for a speed limit as it is noted that broad categories are not appropriate for all roads. These factors include:

• General character of the road or area
• Type and extent of roadside development
• Traffic composition
• Accident history
• Current traffic speed
• Enforcement
• The frequency of junctions
• Presence of amenities that attract pedestrians and cyclists
• Environmental impact such as increased journey times, vehicles emissions, and the visual impact of the signing.

To be effective and influential a speed limit depends on drivers responding to these factors, particularly those with a visual impact. The speed limit should provide a key indication of the nature of the road or area and the activity of motorised and non-motorised road users. In this sense, the speed limit should fit the location so that the majority of drivers keep to the limit with minimal police attention.

Vehicle speed data is regularly collected for roads where concerns and issues are highlighted or where they form part of a specific improvement study enabling further detailed investigation and the determination of suitable speed limits and management features.

The department has an ad-hoc programme of vehicle speed and volume data collection and there are a number of examples whereby before and after surveys have been conducted to monitor the impact of speed changes.

A road safety strategy is nearing completion and a review of speed limit policy is to be included in that document. The speed limit policy will be subject to a separate public consultation in advance of the strategy being finalised.

7. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SEA DEFENCES AND THE MONITORING OF SEA LEVELS:

Question

Given the recent fears that rising sea levels could require significant investment in sea defences, could the Minister state whether his department currently monitors sea levels and, if so, to what degree the sea has risen in the last 30 or so years?

Answer

Monitoring of sea levels on the Island is carried out by Jersey Harbours and not Transport and Technical Services. Since 1993 this information has been recorded digitally and shared with the UK National Oceanography Centre who collate this information on behalf of the UK.

Since 1993 sea levels have increased in Jersey by an average of 2.3mm/year. This equates to a 3.5cm rise in the period. These rises can be compared to other areas of the English Channel which have experienced sea level rises of between 0.8 to 2.3mm/ year and the global average for the Twentieth Century of 1.7mm/year.

8. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE DRAINAGE WORKS AT SNOW HILL:

Question

Would the Minister state when the drainage works at Snow Hill were initially due to be completed and advise of the current estimated completion date? Would he also state whether the contract for the work contained any contingency clauses (such as encountering unforeseen ground conditions) and, if so, whether that could have the potential to affect the fixed price he has alluded to in the past?

Answer

The works at Snow Hill were originally programmed to be complete at the end of October 2013 and are now programmed to be completed by the end of October 2014.

The Contract is a standard Engineering Contract for this type of work which includes Clauses which can be activated if unforeseen ground conditions are encountered. In this instance, these standard Clauses have been modified to be more definitive and remove potential for subjective interpretation by Contractors pursuing claims.

The construction of the below ground shafts and tunnels has been a highly technical and very challenging project which is now nearing completion with all works successfully completed and the project planned to be fully demobilised by the end of November.

Whilst the works have been prolonged, the Contractor has so far failed to provide any technically supported claims for additional monies due under the Contract and the fixed price Contract sum is currently unaffected.

9. DEPUTY G.C.L.BAUDAINS OF ST CLEMENT OF THE CHAIRMAN OF PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF MEMBERS' ATTENDANCE LEVELS:

Question

Does the Chairman consider that the publication of figures showing members' attendance levels is a useful guide for members of the public seeking to determine the conscientiousness of their representatives and, if so, would he agree that PPC should publish these figures in future instead of relying on publication by individual members?

Answer

The Terms of Reference of PPC in Standing Order 128 include a requirement for the Committee to publish an annual report on the work of the Assembly and also make the Committee responsible for the provision of information to the public about the work of the States. A number of different statistics about the work of the Assembly are currently collated by the States Greffe throughout the year and used for the annual report. These cover matters such as the number of questions asked, the identity of those who have answered them, the number of statements made and those who have made them, the number, type and length of debates and amount of time spent on all aspects of the Assembly's business.

PPC has stressed on a number of occasions in recent years that it is important for members to comply with their oath of office and the members' code of conduct by attending meetings of the Assembly conscientiously to represent their constituents. I have myself on 2 occasions at the end of the term of office of an Assembly published a list showing the level of attendance of members at recorded votes during the 3 year period. In common with the questioner I believe that this information is useful for the public but I would stress that the lists have been collated and circulated by me in a personal capacity and not produced by the States Greffe or PPC.

I consider that there may be scope to increase the type of official statistics that are produced and published about the work of the Assembly and although there has not been time to raise this issue with PPC I am willing to undertake to place this matter in the legacy report from this PPC so that the new Committee elected in November can consider it. Whether or not the collation of statistics on attendance at votes should be included in the States Assembly annual report in future will be a matter for the new Committee to decide.

10. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING CLINICAL WAITING TIMES:

Question

Will the Minister give details of current waiting times for appointments in all clinical areas of the Hospital? Will she also give details of any staffing problems in various departments such as the eye clinic, for hip replacements, or in any other department that are impacting on waiting times?

Answer

The average waiting times for outpatients and procedures (Appendix 1) are now published on the States of Jersey website ( www.gov.je/Government/Departments/HealthSocialServices  ) and will be updated monthly to allow the public direct access to this information.

It is important to note that these figures relate to the average wait for all patients including all urgent', soon' and routine' categories. The greater the number of urgent' cases by specialty, the longer the wait is likely to be for routine patients within that specialty, as urgent' cases will always be prioritised above routine'.

Improvements in figures for patients waiting over 12 weeks have been made since the beginning of the year, with 70% of all patients referred to Outpatients being seen within 12 weeks, and 81% of all patients requiring surgery, receiving it within 12 weeks.

The main pressures for surgical waiting times sit within Orthopaedics. Encouragingly, there has been a month on month reduction in the number of patients waiting more than 12 weeks for surgery in this field, but we acknowledge there is a great deal more to do.

Significant improvements have been made to reduce waiting times for a first Outpatient appointment in Orthopaedics. In January there were 1283 patients waiting for an orthopaedic

opinion, with 650 patients waiting in excess of 12 weeks. As of August 31st, there were 558 patients waiting, with 33 patients waiting over 12 weeks.

Oral surgery has also noted significant improvements in Outpatient and surgical waiting times. The Department currently has just three patients waiting longer than 12 weeks for procedures, while Outpatient waits have also been reduced, with no more than 25 waiting longer than 12 weeks.

Some patients may wait longer than 12 weeks and there can be a number of reasons for this. Occasionally it is because a patient does not want to accept the initial appointment offered to them, because they may be on holiday or for another personal reason.

In terms of waiting lists for a procedure, in some cases a patient may not be considered physically fit enough to undergo the procedure for a variety of reasons, or the Consultant may have indicated that the patient needs to take some action before undergoing surgery.

All of these situations can contribute to far longer waiting times for some patients.

Reducing waiting times for patients remains a key priority for the Hospital. The Department continues to successfully use LEAN methodology to review its current practices and apply learning across all areas, where it is relevant. Outpatient waits in Pain and Gastroenterology services have been identified as the next areas of targeted focus.

There are currently no specific or extraordinary staffing issues directly impacting on waiting lists. All Consultant vacancies within the hospital have now been filled.

In Ophthalmology, the latest appointment started in post on September 15th, bringing the number of Consultants in this area to a full complement of three.

Within Orthopaedics, we have been using Locum staff. This is assisting with the improvement in waiting times for orthopaedic patients.

I would urge any States Member who is approached by a member of the public with concerns about their waiting time to advise them to speak to the Department directly, as they will know the accurate details of the individual case and be able to address any issues.

Appendix 1

Acute Services Average Waiting Times – @ August 31st 2014 Average Wait for First Out-Patient Appointment

Average Wait for Procedure

In some services there was an increase in average wait times in August, compared to the previous two  months.  This  was  not  unexpected  as  essential  planned  theatre  maintenance  is  generally undertaken during August, which allows for staff to take holidays during this peak time in the school break. Inevitably, however, this does result in a reduction of surgical activity and a small increase in waiting lists.

It is expected that this level will even out again throughout September.

11. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDR OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN THE INCOME FORECASTS COMPARED  TO  THOSE  INCLUDED  IN THE  MEDIUM  TERM  FINANCIAL PLAN:

Question

Was the Council of Ministers formally informed of the significant reduction in the income forecasts (of approximately £70 million) as compared to those included in the Medium Term Financial Plan that was identified in the report of September 2013 and, if so, when?

Answer

The independent Income Tax Forecasting Group (ITFG) meets each year and agrees the Income Tax forecast, which then informs that year's annual Budget. A report is issued by the Economics Unit to help formalise the forecast position as decided by the ITFG.

The report written to inform the 2014 budget was issued in September 2013 and included a projected downgrade in income tax forecast for 2014 of £13 million and £26 million for 2015 compared to the MTFP figure.

The Council of Ministers was briefed on the Budget 2014 proposals and background issues at its meetings on 10th July, 18th September and 27th November 2013. The Council receives regular financial monitoring reports which include figures on updated income, expenditure and forecasts.

12. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDR OFTHE MINISTER FOR TREASURYAND RESOURCES REGARDING WHEN STATES MEMBERS WERE INFORMED OF THE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN INCOME FORECASTS:

Question

1. Other than the contents of R.149/2013 that was presented on 3rd December 2013, where, when and to what degree were States members informed ofthe significant reduction in income forecasts (as compared to the Medium Term Financial Plan), of approximately £70 million, that was identified in the report of September 2013?
2. When was the amount quantified in figures and were those figures notified to States members in numerical form and, if so, when?

Answer

R.149/2013 Fiscal Policy Panel Report: response of the Minister for Treasury and Resources is attached for information and was emailed to all States Members on 29th November 2013. A copy of

this email is attached. This email also attached the Minister's response to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel's report on the Draft Budget 2014 (S.R.13/2013). A copy is attached for information.

1. The Deputy asked a similar oral question atthe last sitting. The Minister believes the Deputy is referring to the Supplementary Note on Income Forecasts for the Budget 2014 and the separate Income Tax Forecasting Group (ITFG) paper. The information has been provided as follows:

The ITFG detailed report was initially provided to the Fiscal Policy Panel in September 2013 in preparation for their Annual Report on the draft Budget 2014.

The ITFG detailed report was also provided to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel on 25 October 2013 in preparation for their Report on the draft Budget 2014.

The Corporate Services Scrutiny Report on the Annual Budget 2014 (S.R.13/2013) tabled a summary of the revised income tax forecasts. The report and both of the Scrutiny Advisor's reports also referred to the revised forecasts being lower than the MTFP by £9 million in 2013, £13 million in 2014 and £26 million in 2015. The Scrutiny report was published on 26 November 2013.

The Treasury Minister's response to the FPP (R149/2013), referred to in Deputy Le Fondré's Question, was published on 3 December 2013 and emailed in advance to States Members on 29th

November  2013  by  the  Minister. The  response included  the Supplementary  Note on  Income Forecasts for the Budget 2014.

The Supplementary Note to the 2014 Budget, included in R149/2013, was also provided to States members separately at the time of the Budget debate, on 3 December 2014.

The ITFG Report was circulated in hard copy to States Members at the time of the Budget 2014 debate,  on  3  December  2013,  rather  than  being  published  as  it  contains  granular  detail  not appropriate for wider circulation.

The Supplementary Note and detailed ITFG Report were included in the information supporting the Amended Budget 2014 and Update to the MTFP Department Annex for 2014 circulated to States members by the Treasury Minister on 21 January 2014.

The detailed ITFG forecasts were not part of the published documentation for the Amended Budget 2014 and Update to the MTFP Department Annex for 2014 as they contains granular detail not appropriate for wider circulation.

2. The  second  part of the  Deputy 's  questions  refers  to the  initial  Supplementary  Note  in R149/2013, 3 December 2014, which illustrated the revised forecasts in a series of graphs (on pages 16, 17 and 18), highlighting the lower forecasts being used in the Long Term Revenue Planning process for General Revenue Income.

The graphs clearly illustrated the overall position and also showed the position on income tax and stamp duty, which had the most significant variances.

The detailed ITFG figures were provided in hard copy at the time of the Budget 2014 debate, 3 December 2013.

A full analysis was then provided in the Supplementary Note and detailed ITFG Report as part of the information supporting the Amended Budget 2014 and Update to the MTFP Department Annex for 2014 circulated to States members by the Treasury Minister on 21 January 2014.

R.149-2013.pdf

Email to all States Members 29th November 2013

From: Philip Ozouf

Sent: 29 November 2013 16:59

To: All States Members (including ex officio members)

Cc: Laura Rowley; John Richardson (CMD); Dougie Peedle; David Le Cuirot; Steve Le Marquand Subject: Budget 2014 - Comments and Responses

Importance: High

Dear colleagues.

Following my email yesterday, please find attached:

1. Comments to all Budget amendments

2. Response to Fiscal Policy Report

3. Response Corporate Service Scrutiny Panel

I am indebted to the combined work of the Treasurer and teams at Treasury, Income Tax, Agent of the Impôts, Economics and Communications for their assistance in preparing these papers for members. The Greffe will process hard copies in the usual away.

If any member has any questions or queries in relation to any Budget matters, please do not hesitate to contact Eddie or myself over the weekend.

Best wishes, Philip and Eddie

Senator Philip Ozouf | Minister for Treasury and Resources

Treasury and Resources Department

Cyril Le Marquand House | PO Box 353 | St Helier | Jersey | JE4 8UL

t. +44(0)1534 440287 | e. p.ozouf@gov.je | w. www.gov.je  | f. +44(0)1534 445522

Ministerial Response - Draft 2014 Budget -

13. DEPUTY J.H. YOUNG OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND  RESOURCES  REGARDING  THE  SUBSTANTIAL  INCREASE  IN  THE

BUDGET FORECAST IN STATES INCOME IN 2016 AND 2017 COMPARED WITH THE LATEST FORECAST FOR 2014:

Question

Will the Minister provide a detailed breakdown of each of the following forecasts of General Revenue Income included in Figure 12.8 on page 64 of the draft Budget Statement 2015 together with the economic and fiscal assumptions which underlie each of these forecasts -

1. Forecast 2014 -£652 million
2. Forecast 2015 - £685 million;
3. Indicative Forecast 2016 - £707 million;
4. Indicative Forecast 2017 - £742 million;

and  explain  the  rationale,  including  the  economic  and  fiscal  assumptions,  for  the  substantial increase in the budget forecast in States income in 2016 and 2017 compared with the latest forecast for 2014? What is the degree of reliability and error evaluated by the Income Tax Forecasting Group on these forecasts and have they been reviewed by external advisers?

Answer

The breakdowns of the forecasts of General Revenue Income for 2014 – 2017 in Figure 12.8 are provided in the following table. The figures for 2013 are actuals from the Financial Report and Accounts and the figures for 2014 and 2015 are based on the forecasts as lodged in the draft Budget 2015 in July. The figures for 2016 and 2017 are an extract from those provided in Figure 1 of the Long Term Revenue Planning Review progress report R136/2014 in September.

The forecasts from the Long Term Revenue Planning period 2016 and 2017 are based on the latest ITFG forecasts and latest forecasts of other States Income. The 2016 and 2017 forecasts do not yet include the financial impact of the tax and duty proposals in the draft Budget 2015 on the basis they are not yet approved.

The economic assumptions underpinning the forecast out to 2017 are shown in the table below. All figures are percentages.

May 2014

2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017

OUTTURNS

The ITFG only advise on the Income Tax forecasts to 2017. As explained on numerous occasions there is significant uncertainty around the forecasts which should be borne in mind when using them. As a result officers advise the use of a range with upper and lower levels based on 5% either side of the central forecast and therefore a total range of 10%.

The forecasts in the Long Term Revenue Planning Review progress report (R136/2014) have been extended out to 2020. These include even further uncertainty and would require an even wider range.

The full ITFG paper explaining the assumptions and forecasts out to 2017 was shared with the FPP in preparation of their July 2014 Annual Report and with the advisers to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel for their review of the Draft Budget 2015. It has been provided to States Members by the Chief Minister on 12th September 2014.

Note: these forecasts are not Ministerial figures, they are compiled by officers only, as explained above.

2.14DEPUTY J.H.YOUNG OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE RELIABILITY OF THE FINANCIAL FORECASTS:

Question

Would the Minister provide an explanation of the words "comparable basis to the existing financial forecast" used in his reply to my written question (No. 8476) of 9th September 2014 which stated that on this basis, the draft 2015 Budget presented to the States indicated a forecast breakeven position in revenue income over expenditure in 2016 and 2017; and inform the Assembly whether he has become aware of any further information since these forecasts were produced which effects their reliability; whether these forecasts take account of the downturn in 2014 tax revenues; whether they are considered to be reliable by his internal and external advisers and whether there is any qualification or limitation placed upon the forecasts?

Answer

The words "comparable basis to the existing financial forecast" mean that they are based on the same set of economic assumptions and ITFG forecasts as used for the draft Budget 2015 forecasts for 2014 and 2015. The presentation of a forecast breakeven position assumes that the next MTFP will continue to follow a strategy of balanced budgets, but this will be a decision for the next Council of Ministers and States Assembly.

The Minister has published, in R136/2014: Long-Term Revenue Planning Review and in the answer to the Deputy 's written question No.8516, the detail of the indicative income forecasts for 2016 and 2017.

These indicative income forecasts are based on the latest information in respect of economic assumptions and incorporate the forecasts from the Income Tax Forecasting Group. The forecasts therefore take account of the revision in 2014 tax revenues.

The Minister continues to remind Members that the indicative forecasts are a central forecast and, as with all longer-term forecasts, there is significant uncertainty around the indicative forecasts to 2017. As a result it is advisable to use a range with upper and lower levels based on 5% either side of the central forecast and therefore a total range of 10%.

The Minister also wishes to remind the Deputy that the Treasury is now providing much longer- term forecasts than previously, which, subject to all the caveats relating to uncertainty associated with all long-term planning, provides States Members with information which, if used appropriately, is designed to improve transparency and provide better information, which in turn offers more options and better decision making as we move away from short-termism.

3. Oral Questions

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the communication with complainants under the States members Code of Conduct:

Does the chairman consider it satisfactory that complainants under the States Members Code of Conduct are not, as a matter of routine, contacted by the committee to discuss their complaints or advised of the progress of proceedings and, in the absence of such communication, how does the committee ensure that all elements of complaints are fully understood and dealt with?

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):

P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) investigates complaints in accordance with the procedures set out in Standing Orders and successive committees have adopted similar processes since the current Standing Orders were introduced in 2005. If the nature of the complaint is clear from the complaint received and P.P.C. decides that there are grounds to investigate, it is not necessary to contact the complainant during the course of the investigation. It is only necessary to contact the complainant if the exact nature of the complaint is not clear from the initial request and

in particular if it is not clear to which part of the Code of Conduct for elected Members the complainant  believes that the Member  may have breached. It  is important to stress that the responsibility for investigating and adjudicating on any complaint is the responsibility of P.P.C. and it would be wrong for the process to be driven or directed by the complainant. In addition, P.P.C. has always made clear that in common process with other parliaments the investigation is not undertaken in an adversarial way and there is no scope for complainants to question or cross- examine the Member who is the subject of the complaint or  vice versa. P.P.C. ensures that complainants are made aware of the outcome of the investigation. This is normally done by email or letter, although in the case of a complaint submitted by a States Member the outcome might, for example, become known through the publication of a report to the States.

1. The Connétable of St. Mary :

Notwithstanding what the chairman has said, which of course I am fully conversant with, does the chairman not accept that in several cases there are possibly interpretations to complaints which are not understood? For example, I recently made a complaint where I outlined a specific area that I wished to be looked at, yet I see no reference to that area in the complainant's report. Furthermore, does the chairman think that it is acceptable for the complainant to hear only through the media when things are being progressed?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

To take the questions apart in reverse order, obviously a complaint against perhaps a States Member is ideally seen as an initial disciplinary process and as much as possible not for the media to be aware of as it is effectively a personnel matter. Therefore during recent times one has tried to reduce the media awareness of the complaint for the particular reason the Constable raises. With regard to the other aspects, if the Constable could just repeat that part of the question, please?

The Connétable of St. Mary :

It is just I wonder how the chairman would respond if a complainant said that the aspect of the complaint they wished to be addressed did not seem to have been addressed in the report?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

P.P.C. considers whether a breach of the Code of Conduct has been made and complaints relate to the breaching of the Code of Conduct, not necessarily every single argument which is made which the complainant might feel have been transgressed, although I am happy to speak to the Constable in order to make our legacy report a better process for this particular aspect.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Is the chairman aware that there is substantial overlap between the powers of the Chief Minister and the powers of P.P.C. in investigating complaints against the Minister and what steps has he taken or, should he be returned to the House, will he take to make sure that this is cleared up and areas of responsibility are clearly defined in our rules?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, this matter was considered greatly when we were considering the introduction of the Commissioner for Standards for the better conduct of States Members and in some areas there is an overlap. I believe that a piece of work which is being undertaken by the Council of Ministers currently is to review the Code of Conduct for Ministers so that it is much clearer, because at the moment there is replication between the Ministerial Code of Conduct and the Code of Conduct for elected Members. Pending the outcome of that review P.P.C. will review the situation.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the chairman aware of when that review started and when it is likely to come to a conclusion and publish its results?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, it did commence last year, I believe. I am not aware of its outcome and I am happy to seek the conclusions of that.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

If I may, is the chairman saying that it has taken 10 months to produce a report on responsibilities of Ministerial Government?

The Bailiff :

That is a third question.

4. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu of St. Helier :

Could the chairman confirm that the current procedures under the Members Code of Conduct relating to complaints are not Article 6 compliant, Article 6 being Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights to which this Island is committed, which concern fair trial, the right to examine and cross-examine witnesses by the accused, which is standard procedure in any criminal procedure in any court in this Island? Secondly ..

The Bailiff :

That is the question. I think we will have one question at a time. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:

There is a supplementary, Sir. There is an additional part.

The Bailiff :

One question at a time.

Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:

I will come back when he has answered that.

[9:45]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

A complaint made against a States Member for investigation is not a criminal procedure and therefore the same standards do not apply. This is an internal disciplinary matter, and P.P.C. has always sought it to be a non-adversarial process, as is common with other parliamentary democracies in the world.

5. Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:

Supplementary? I am sure the chairman is not a lawyer, unfortunately, but he should be aware that the European Convention on Human Rights Article 6 does not simply apply to criminal matters. It applies to all disciplinary hearings, and is therefore relevant in this case. Could I also remind him that in 2012 the Greffier of the States produced an excellent report of 36 pages which has been gathering dust, one that related to this very subject? Parallel is the fact that States Members ..

The Bailiff :

Sorry, Deputy . You are coming to a question? Deputy N.B. Le Cornu:

The question is, is he aware of that, because this procedure under his tenure as the chairman has not been looked at. He has had a wonderful report and he has done nothing about it. Why? When States Members pay is dealt with ..

The Bailiff :

That is the question, Deputy . Thank you very much. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I am aware of that report. Of course it did come out some time before I became chairman. That is not an excuse, just an observation. With regards to the ongoing process, again the States Assembly has approved and there are law drafting instructions going ahead for a Commissioner for Standards in order to deal with this matter and if there is a concern over the processes through the disciplinary proceedings against States Members complaints then there is an opportunity to inform the shaping of that particular process.

The Bailiff :

Connétable , do you wish a final question?

6. The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, Sir. I appreciate the difficult position that the chairman is in, probably more so than anyone else in this Assembly. However, the other concern I had was that it is always important to consider what is said publicly, especially by members of the P.P.C. Will the P.P.C. chairman leave a legacy report with tighter guidelines? I was quite concerned to see that some Members were not able to sit on the complaint because of having made comments publicly beforehand, which of course is their right but which can put the chairman in a difficult position. Will he issue guidelines for the future?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, again it was a very difficult process, but yes, I give the Constable that undertaking.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the prosecution of cyber-bullies:

Will the Minister advise Members whether the States of Jersey Police have failed to prosecute an alleged cyber-bully who has been making death threats and, if so, would he advise why?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

Firstly, as the Deputy well knows, the States of Jersey Police do not prosecute anyone. They investigate complaints and, where appropriate, produce a file for a prosecutor to make a decision. Secondly, I have in one case met with the complainant and in the other case exchanged emails with the complainant, and I do not recall anything that could seriously be considered as a death threat. Thirdly, in accordance with my normal practice in such matters I have forwarded the information provided to me on to the police leadership. The complaints are very clearly an operational matter and that is a matter for the States of Jersey Police.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

A supplementary? I am pleased the Minister mentioned his response to my last question last week, because again I was surprised that he expressed a lack of knowledge of death threats and also attempts to ruin the careers of members of the public, yet he was given not only copies of a blog but also an audio tape of some of the alleged threats. I would ask the Minister first of all why he did not mention this last week in his answer and, secondly, why he does not take it seriously? The police have had this information for quite some time.

The Bailiff :

There you are. Those are your 2 questions, Deputy . Thank you. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

That is not fair at all. I always take such matters seriously. In fact I passed it on to police and have monitored the situation to a degree demonstrating I do take it seriously. I am simply saying there was nothing that I heard on the tape or anywhere else that could seriously be considered as death threats. There were other matters. The questions I was asking last week quite frankly did not go into this level of detail.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

This is a bit wider than the question. The question is, and I have asked the Minister before, the Minister now absolutely satisfied that the police and then the Law Officers do have the right powers in law to follow up if this was serious or even cyber-bullying in general? Is the Minister now satisfied?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

There is Harassment Law, which can cover this area, and that is what they have to work under, but there is a potential gap, which has been identified some time ago and I have said that it was identified really by the Law Officers. I was initially asked to do some work on it and then subsequently it was taken away from me and went to Economic Development. I have previously said that I regret that, because it would have been a higher priority within the Home Affairs Department than it is within Economic Development, but the proposed amendment falls within a law which is within the E.D.D. (Economic Development Department) arrangements.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

One of the reasons why I am pursuing this particular matter is that the individual concerned was a star witness in the data protection case against former Senator Stuart Syvret. He has been claiming ever since that he has immunity from his actions. One of the complainants that the Minister is aware of went to the police station and the police sergeant or the police officer concerned laughed at the complainant and said: "You do not really think anything is going to happen on this?" So when you have the perpetrator of the cyber-bullying attacks claiming he has immunity because of what he did in the past, and when you get police officers laughing at complainants and saying: "You do not really think anything is going to be done?" does the Minister think that is acceptable?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Nobody has immunity in Jersey, not even the Bailiff if he were to transgress the law, which I am sure he does not. Nobody has immunity, not even the Minister for Home Affairs. Any claim of immunity is complete and utter nonsense. I am aware of the allegation that an officer laughed in terms of whether this was sufficiently serious and so on. That is one of the matters that I referred on to the police senior officers in case they considered that that was improper conduct. That is a matter for them and not for me.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the extension of the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011 to agencies like Andium Homes:

Does the Chief Minister consider that agencies like Andium should be subject as soon as possible to the full provisions of the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

I am Acting Chief Minister at this moment, so I will answer the question. Members may recall that originally the plan was to bring in the Freedom of Information Law with effect from the end of 2015. This process was, in fact, accelerated forward by the Chief Minister with a view to bringing as much as possible in by 1st January 2015. Members may also recall P.81, which the States passed, in which it amended the categories or the definition of the categories because of ambiguities. Now, one of the effects of that was, in fact, to make it clear that groups like Andium would not be in from 1st January. However, it is the intention of the Chief Minister, if he is still Chief Minister after the 2-stage elections, first of all to bring a proposition to the States to extend to the Parishes from September 2015 and then to phase-in the other such items, including Andium, which potentially lie within the law as soon as is reasonably possible. But there are a number of different organisations potentially caught by the ambit of the law. The way the law is structured is that these are brought in in regulations and any particular group can be brought in by regulations at any time, but there is a need for phasing.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if the Acting Chief Minister could define what he means by "as soon as reasonably possible." Can he give a target date?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am slightly embarrassed by that question because I have written instructions and I spoke this morning to be briefed in relation to this. I thought that these were telling me that Andium was by September of next year, but on reading them carefully there is an ambiguity in the notes, so I am not sure about that. It is not clear as to whether this applies to Andium. I think that each organisation is going to have to get itself up to speed to be ready to deal with this. I am sorry I cannot give a more precise date, but I think the Deputy does need to recall we are working early in any event. We are a year ahead on the initial stuff.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Can the Acting Chief Minister then advise? Up until Andium became Andium and was Housing, any tenant could - and I have been with them - go in and see every record about themselves. Is the Minister saying this is now going to change and it is going to be put off for another 2 years? Why the backwards step if this is so? It is their information.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I am not saying it has been put off for 2 years. I did not give a date because the notes I have are not clear on that. I think the Deputy is right; if there had not been this change then the housing administration would have been brought in the initial start, but Andium will clearly need to get itself up to speed and organise itself so that it is ready to go. It is open to any Member to bring a proposition to the States to add .. well, yes, I know a proposition has been brought by the Deputy of Grouville , but there could be a more specific proposition in terms of an amendment to the law saying Andium will be in from a certain date. That is open to any Member at any given time to do that because it is within the control of this Assembly as to when specific entities are added.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Sorry, supplementary: it was clear up until Housing became Andium any tenant, with myself or any Member or another friend who they wanted to take in, could see all this information. Is this now denied to the tenant? That is a straightforward question. Until supposedly this comes under a new law, what has changed down at Housing, except for the name? The information is there.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Unfortunately, I cannot give the details of the law. If the information remains at the Housing Department and the information has not been handed, it would still be available prior to the handover. But if it has been handed over under the law, then the availability - under the law, I hasten to add, as opposed to voluntary information given - would have to wait until Andium has been added as an entity within the schedule.

4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

If and when Andium will be covered by the Freedom of Information Law, will it be retrospective? In other words, in the period between now and when the F.O.I. (Freedom of Information) applies to Andium will the information be made available on request or not?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

That must be right because the effect of bringing in an entity does not just bring in information that comes into existence from that date. It is to bring in all the information they have from the past as well.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will there have been sufficient time for Andium to make sure that their records are in sufficient condition for an F.O.I. Law which does not currently apply to them?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

That is the whole point in relation to Andium and any other organisation. They need time to get their records up to scratch and into a state where they can respond reasonably. The same thing applies to any other organisation. I do not know because I am not the Minister for Housing as to how far the Housing Department went in terms of preparing its records with a view to this.

6. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade :

Could the Minister for Treasury and Resources not use powers of direction to require the new company to comply voluntarily with this new law? In fact, could Andium itself not decide that it comes within the public interest that it would do so?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

It is open to Andium to start complying, as it were, providing the information voluntarily. It is open to any organisation without operation of the law. The other question, I am afraid, would have to be addressed to the Minister for Treasury and Resources. I am afraid I lost the vote for Minister for Treasury and Resources 3 years ago. [Laughter]

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Just to try and dispense with some of the confusion on this, I am surprised that the Minister has not mentioned it. The Freedom of Information Law does not mean lack of information for residents. Residents can still get their information under the Data Protection Law. If they file a subject access request, any personal information they are entitled to get. So that information is still available, but I agree that the Freedom of Information Law should be brought to deal with all other aspects of the Housing Department as soon as possible, or Andium Homes as soon as possible. Does the Minister not agree that personal information can be obtained under the Data Protection Law?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Yes, I thank Deputy Higgins very much for that intervention. Yes, he is absolutely right. Of course he is right. Freedom of Information is in addition to the ability for people to obtain personal information by personal subject access.

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Does the Acting Chief Minister not agree we are making a mountain out of a molehill and that, as a recently released Civil Service department under the excellent leadership of the still current Minister for Housing, Andium will be up to speed and could very quickly move to full Freedom of Information? Does he not believe we are making a total mountain out of a molehill?

[10:00]

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Well, I hope that is right. I only heard half the question because the person who succeeded in the election 3 years ago whispered in my left ear that he was quite prepared to instruct them to do it as soon as is reasonably possible.

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

A supplementary: could you give the date by which you will be seeking its full implementation? Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Well, I will not be here to do that, of course, as the Deputy well knows. The Chief Minister may not be here either. I am sorry there is an ambiguity in my notes. I thought on first reading the note said September 2015. On reading it now, I see it is referring to the Parishes. This has left me in a position where I am afraid I cannot answer that. I will endeavour to get the Chief Minister to put out a note to all colleagues to tell them what the target date is. I think that is the best way forward.

10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Will the move to the Parishes cover Parish housing schemes? Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

It will cover all matters administered by the Parish and so if they are Parish houses the answer is yes, but if they are administered by some separate entity the answer is no.

4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the use of the rental income from States' tenants:

I note with some degree of sadness that my question has been redirected away from the Minister for Housing. I hope we are not going to be going into the problems we had with Jersey Telecom and other incorporated companies. Given the anticipated rental income from States tenants at £50 million per annum and the £28 million returned to the States, together with £12 million per year average maintenance spend, could the Minister as the shareholder representative advise what the balance will be spent on?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

The good news is that the Assistant Minister is going to answer the question.

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):

I will endeavour to do so to the satisfaction of Deputy Baudains. In 2015, Andium Homes' rental income is projected to be £43.8 million. This is after taking into account the gradual implementation of the rent policy on new tenancies and rent losses on properties undergoing major refurbishment. Rental income is expected to build-up to £50 million, as noted in the Deputy 's question, by 2017. However, if I may use the 2015 year as an example, this forecast rental income of £43.8 million will be used to fund the annual return to the States of £28.5 million, maintenance expenditure of £10.2 million, staff costs of £3.7 million, other income and expenses netting to £2.3 million, and financial costs of £1.7 million. This will result in the forecast operating loss of £2.6 million, which will be funded from other cash flows. Of the other income and expenditure of

£2.3 million, I can advise the Deputy that £1 million is for foncier rates and non-rechargeable electricity costs such as for street lighting. Other expenditure relates to items such as buildings insurance, surveyors'  fees, legal fees, bad debts, audit fees, postage and stationery,  et cetera. Andium Homes has developed a robust business plan that requires approval by the guarantor and will improve the condition of the housing stock and deliver much needed further affordable homes while also delivering value for money.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Moving from the Minister for Housing to the Minister for Treasury and Resources to the Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources, the information seems to have got corrupted somewhere along the way. I wonder if the Assistant Minister could tell me where he got his information from because the figures I have came from the Minister for Housing via the department and are completely different from the figures he has just given me.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I am afraid that the Deputy 's figures must be out of date. These figures came directly from Andium Homes.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is it not the case that the continuation of the return to Treasury element repeats the history of the Housing Department where funding was skimped in order to have the return to Treasury continually?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

It is good to see that Deputy Southern is at least consistent in his questioning. These questions have been asked numerous times before and in the proposition that was brought to this Assembly by the Minister for Housing. The £28.5 million return to the States is a reasonable sum that was agreed and Andium are happy with that. It is within their business case. They can afford it and one has to remember that they received some 4,000 units of accommodation from the States at no cost.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

A supplementary, if I may. Is it not the fact that the reason why the business plan is set at 90 per cent of market rents is that the return to Treasury takes out a good chunk of their income?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

No, it is making things a lot more transparent and the correct process. Those tenants paying rents at 90 per cent of market are paying it at the correct level. It is not for the housing provider to provide hidden subsidies. That is for our social security system and our income support system.

4. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour :

Could the Assistant Minister advise whether any consideration has been given to consolidating the Andium Homes accounts into the accounts of the States?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Andium Homes will be treated as all States-owned utilities such as Jersey Telecom, Jersey Post, et cetera. There is no reason to treat it any differently.

5. Deputy T.A. Vallois:

Could the Assistant Minister explain exactly what that treatment is, then? Deputy E.J. Noel:

Their annual accounts are audited and they are published along with the States accounts.

6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

It is just an idle question trying to work through the figures that the Deputy has given. The interest on the bond is for 2015 projected. Is that going to be included in those figures? I notice he said finance costs of £1.7 million. Does that mean there is only a small allocation of the bond that has gone into Andium? What is the timing going through that?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Andium has set out in, I believe, our budget documentation from last year that they will be drawing-down on the £207 million borrowing for their refurbishment and build programme over a period of 10 years. Hence they will not be drawing-down that money, all of it, in the beginning of 2015. The finance figures in the figures in the information I have given this morning include that financing of that borrowing that they will be drawing-down.

7. Deputy J.H. Young:

That answer raises a question. Where is the interest on the whole borrowing being met from then? This £2.6 million loss, where is that going to be picked up as well?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Andium Homes will be funding both the capital repayments of the money they borrow from the States and the interest charge from their rental stream. The £2.6 million deficit for 2015 - and there is a further one in 2016 and a breakeven from 2017 and surpluses afterwards - comes from other assets.

8. Deputy J.H. Young:

Does that mean that the interest charges on the £250 million bond we have taken are only incurred when we draw-down monies from that sum? Can he confirm that or put us right?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Andium will only be paying interest on the money that they actually borrow. I think I have already explained when I answered Deputy Le Fondré's question that they will be borrowing down in tranches to match the actual capital projects that they will be investing in.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

First of all, on behalf of the Andium tenants of St. Brelade No. 2, may I congratulate the Assistant Minister on his recent re-election as Deputy ? The same tenants, of course, have seen their rents go up in recent weeks and months to pay for a historic States neglect of maintenance of their properties. Can the Assistant Minister confirm in this forum to them that what we are seeing is a stealth tax on the most vulnerable tenants in our society to pay for essentially a deficit in the Treasury budget for something that should have never been there in the first place?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Deputy Tadier is very consistent in his questioning about Andium Homes and the 90 per cent rents. I have already been very, very clear. This is about making it a level playing field. It is about putting the money that people need if they require a subsidy through the right channels, which is via social security and the income support system. I believe that the 90 per cent rents are only taking place for those with new tenancies and there is a gradualisation of rent increases over a long period of time for those who currently do not pay 90 per cent. [Interruption]

10. Deputy M. Tadier :

A supplementary: does the Minister accept that what we have seen with this funding mechanism is that the tenants themselves are paying for the properties over a lengthy period of time, yet they themselves will not be the beneficial owners of those properties, it will be the States, it will be the wider society, the taxpayer, but not the actual individuals in those properties who are being punished with higher rents despite the fact that they have paid in often for decades living in substandard accommodation?