States Meeting Transcript - 25th November 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 25th NOVEMBER 2014

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................7 The Bailiff :....................................................................................7

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor:..................................7
2. Welcome to His Excellency the High Commissioner for Nigeria to the Court of St. James, Dr. Tafida, and Mrs. Tafida......................................................7

3. Tribute to former Lieutenant Governor - the late Air Marshall Sir John Sutton:......7

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................8

2. Nomination of the Deputy of St. Mary as a member of the Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel........................................................8

2.1 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:................................................8 The Bailiff :....................................................................................8

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

3. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:.........................................8
2. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:.........................9
3. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND: ............9
4. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:..10
5. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCTAION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARD BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:.10
6. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING REGISTRATION CARDS:............................................................11
7. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE COST OF THE NEW POLICE STATION:..15
8. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING A SUBMISSION MADE BY THE FORMER CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:...................................16
9. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GRANTS MADE FROM THE INNOVATION FUND: .................................................................................17

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE SERVICE LEVEL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT AND LES AMIS:..................................18
11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE MINIMUM WAGE:.................................19
12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THJE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE DELIVERY OF GIGABIT JERSEY:........20
13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE DEKLIVERY OF GIGABIT JERSEY:......21
14. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING AN ALLEGED DISPUTE BETWEEN GIGABIT EMPLOYEES AND THE THEIR EMPLOYER:.......................................22

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................23

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Minister for Housing regarding securityof tenure for residents of lodging houses: ........................................................23 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Housing):....................................23

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................23
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................23
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................24
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................24

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources as shareholder representative regarding the contractual relationship between Gigabit Field Force and CH2M:.................................................................................24 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................24

4.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................25

3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26

3. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the disposal of Guernsey's waste:............................................26 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):......26

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................26
2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................27
3. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:..................................................27
4. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................27

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the department's Deputy Directors of Commissioning:.................................28 Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................28

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................28
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................28

5. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel regarding the implementation of recommendation 7.19 of the report of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel S.R.7/2009:..............................................28 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel):..................................................................................29

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................29

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................29
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
   6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the possibility of a structural deficit in States finances from2016:......................30 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................30

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................30
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................31
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................31
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................31

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32

7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................32

7. Deputy J.A. Hilton of the Chief Minister regarding the status of the Joint Safeguarding Board: ..................................................................................33 Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur)..................................33

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................33
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................33

8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for Treasury and Resources as shareholder representative regarding an apparent dispute with workers on the Gigabit project:......33 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................34

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................34
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................35

9. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the gap between the poorest in Jersey society and the wealthiest:........................................35 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................36

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................36
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................36
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................37
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................37
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................38
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................39

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the use of zero-hours contracts:...............................................................................39 Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................39

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40
3. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................40
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................41
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................41
7. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................41
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................42
9. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ............................................................42

11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Chief Minister regarding the proposed International Finance Centre:..................................................................................42 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................42

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................43
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................43
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................43
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................44
5. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................45
6. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................45
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................45

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources...46

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................46 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................46

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................46
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................46

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................46
3. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................47

5.3.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................47

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

5.4.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................48

5.5.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................48

6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................48

5.6.1 Deputy M. Tadier : .....................................................................49

7. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................49
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................49

5.8.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................50

9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................50

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Chief Minister............................51

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................51 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................51

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................51
   2. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:..........................................................51
   3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

6.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................52

6.4.1 Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................53

5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................53

6.5.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................53

6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................54

6.6.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................54

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................54

7. Draft Freedom of Information (Jersey Heritage Trust) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P. 146/2014).................................................................................54

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................54
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................55

8. Draft Freedom of Information (Schedule 1 to Law) (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.154/2014) - as amended............................................56

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................57
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................57

9. Freedom of Information: extension to companies owned or controlled by the States (P.149/2014)..............................................................................58

9.1 Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................59

1. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................60
2. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................61
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................62
4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................63

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................64
6. Deputy S.M. Wickenden:...............................................................65
7. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................65
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................66
9. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................66
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................68
11. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence:..........................................68
12. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................69
13. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ..................................................70

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................70 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................70

14. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................70

10. Draft Pet Travel Scheme (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.150/2014)......72

10.1 Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (The Minister for Planning and Environment):........73

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................74
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................74
3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................74
4. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................75

11. Draft Financial Services Ombudsman (Jersey) Law 2014 (Appointed Day) Act 201- (P.152/2014)..............................................................................76

11.1 Senator L.J. Farnham (The Minister for Economic Development):......................76

12. Draft Freedom of Information (Costs) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.155/2014).......76

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................77
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................77

13 Greville Bathe Fund: appointment of Jurats (P.159/2014).............................77

13.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):...................78

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................78
2. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................78

14. Draft International Criminal Court (Jersey) Law 2014 (Appointed Day) Act 201- (P.161/2014)..............................................................................78

14.1 Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations - rapporteur):.............79

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................79

15. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee): ............................................................................79

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................80

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

The Bailiff :

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor:

May I begin by welcoming His Excellency to our discussions this morning? [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

2. Welcome to His Excellency the High Commissioner for Nigeria to the Court of St. James, Dr. Tafida, and Mrs. Tafida

Members will also be aware that we have the honour of a visit at present from His Excellency the High Commissioner for Nigeria to the court of St. James, Dr. Tafida, and Mrs. Tafida, together

with a delegation from the High Commission. They have been attending meetings yesterday. We had the pleasure of hosting a dinner for them yesterday evening and they are attending further meetings tomorrow. It is a great privilege for us to receive them. The High Commissioner and Mrs. Tafida and the delegation are in the public gallery, and I welcome them on behalf of the Assembly. [Approbation]

Senator A.K.F. Green:

Could I just apologise to the Assembly? I will be absent for a while. I am meeting with His Excellency the High Commissioner, and my Assistant Minister, the Constable of St. Peter, will handle my questions.

3. Tribute to former Lieutenant Governor - the late Air Marshall Sir John Sutton: The Bailiff :

Still under A, Members will know that Air Marshall Sir John Sutton, who was Lieutenant Governor of the Island from 1990 to 1995, passed away last Friday at the age of 82. Sir John was of an age when he had to do National Service and he did this at the age of 20 and having done so he chose to enlist in the Royal Air Force. As he put it, and I quote: "Flying jet fighters and being paid for it was very obviously a wonderful experience for a young man and so I decided to stay on in the R.A.F. (Royal Air Force." He eventually served for some 39 years, mostly flying jet fighters such as Meteors and Phantoms but also having a spell on Canberras. He had a distinguished career gaining promotion to the very highest positions. His final posting was as Air Officer Commanding- in-Chief at R.A.F. Support Command from which post he retired in 1989 before becoming Lieutenant Governor in 1990. As Lieutenant Governor he was soon faced with a difficult and challenging time when Mr. Vernon Tomes was dismissed as Deputy Bailiff for failing to produce judgments in a timely manner. Although this raised strong passions on both sides of the argument at the time it did not affect the respect and affection in which Sir John was held. He was a very approachable and unstuffy person and he and Lady Sutton took a great interest in Island life. They carried out their roles with great charm and an ease of manner. After his retirement as Lieutenant Governor he continued to take an interest in Island life and, indeed, he made a submission to the Carswell committee a few years ago. His life was however touched by tragedy in 2013 when his son, Mark, hit a mountain ridge after jumping in a wing suit from a helicopter and was killed. Sir John was proud of his son's achievements as a stuntman and was comforted by the fact that Mark had died doing something that he loved. Sir John was in the Island only a few weeks ago to attend a dinner to mark the retirement of Colonel Woodrow as Chief of Staff at Government House; Sir John, having been responsible for Colonel Woodrow's appointment in the first place. Something he felt he had got absolutely right. His death therefore has come as a tremendous shock and so at this time our thoughts are with his wife, Lady Sutton, and their 3 surviving children as well as other

members of the family. So I ask for Members to rise with me for a few moments in his memory. [Silence] There are no other matters under item A.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Nomination of the Deputy of St. Mary as a member of the Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel

The Bailiff :

I understand that the chairman of the Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel would wish to nominate an additional member, if he were here.

2.1 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Apologies, Sir. I would like to nominate the Deputy of St. Mary .

The Bailiff :

I think you first of all need to tell us how many members of your panel you wish to have? The Connétable of St. Helier :

Three, Sir, including myself.

The Bailiff :

The chairman wishes to increase it to 3 and to nominate the Deputy of St. Mary. Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for the vacancy? Then I declare the Deputy of St. Mary is duly elected as a member of the Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions

1. DEPUTYM.TADIEROFST.BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:

Question

Will the Minister detail for members how he will deliver those measures to balance the Consolidated Fund that apply to the Chief Minister's Department and are listed on page 56 of the accompanying report to P.129/2014 Draft Budget Statement 2015'?

Answer

Proposed reduction in 2014 carry forwards of ALL departments

Due to tight controls on spending in 2014 the Chief Ministers Department will be able to offer underspends that will not be requested to be carried forward. The exact figure is not known at this time as savings will continue to be made in the later part of the year.

Proposed savings from ALL departments 2% pay and gross non pay budgets As part of the 2015 Budget it was identified that additional savings would be required from all Departments as part of a range of measures necessary to manage the consolidated fund balance in 2015.

The quantum of savings allocated to the Chief Ministers Department amounts to £486k.

The Department is fully committed to meeting this savings target and discussions are ongoing with Budget Managers regarding the range of detailed measures which will contribute towards the overall saving.

2. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:

Question

Will the Minister detail for members how she will deliver those measures to balance the Consolidated Fund that apply to the Home Affairs Department and are listed on page 56 of the accompanying report to P.129/2014 Draft Budget Statement 2015?'

Answer

Due to the short time period between the publication of P129/2014 and 1 January 2015 the Home Affairs Accounting Officers identified funds which could be made available to Services on a one- off basis if recurring savings proposals cannot be implemented immediately; this was agreed with the previous Minister. This will allow time for Home Affairs officers to review statutory obligations and consider sustainable options for recurring savings of 2% to be delivered from 2015 and future years.

Once the Home Affairs officers have identified savings proposals I will review them with my Assistant Minister and Accounting Officers alongside my top eight priorities for the Department.

During the CSR process all areas of non-staff expenditure were reviewed and the requirement for further savings will mean that, regrettably, it will be difficult not to impact upon staff numbers given that over 80% of the Department's expenditure is on staff costs.

Services delivered by the Home Affairs Department are, in the main, front line public facing services which require a critical mass, eg number of firefighters on a watch, number of prison officers, police officers and customs and immigration officers per shift. Due to the nature of the business any change in the critical mass would be significant and could require services to be ceased or delivered differently.

I will do my utmost to protect these services and the role they play in ensuring public safety as the alternative may not be acceptable politically.

3. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND:

Question

Will the Minister detail for members how she will deliver those measures to balance the Consolidated Fund that apply to the Social Security Department and are listed on page 56 of the accompanying report to P.129/2014 Draft Budget Statement 2015'?

Answer

The Social Security Department is required to identify a saving of £330,900 in respect of its 2015 cash limit.

The Department is committed to making further improvements to Customer Service and will therefore achieve this savings target without any impact to the frontline services it provides to the public.

The Department may also be affected by the possibility of the deferral of contributions into the long-term-care fund. This will have no impact on the operation of the fund itself. It would however reduce the potential to build up a working reserve in the fund in the first few years of its operation.

4. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND: Question

Will the Minister detail for members how he will deliver those measures to balance the Consolidated Fund that apply to the Treasury and Resources Department and are listed on page 56 of the accompanying report to P.129/2014 Draft Budget Statement 2015'?

Answer

The Treasury and Resources Minister will present the Update to the MTFP Department Annex for 2015 to the States on the 25th November. This document identifies the approach being taken by

departments to address the 2015 budget measures.

The total value of savings allocated to the Treasury and Resources Department (including Jersey Property Holdings and the Taxes Office) amounts to £778,800 and the Department is fully committed to achieving this target by a mixture of one-off and recurring savings. The detail is not yet available.

Within the Taxes Office provisional proposals are currently under consideration and work will continue over the coming months in order to implement the required measures. Emphasis is being placed on minimising the impact on revenue-generating areas.

5. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCTAION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARD BALANCING THE CONSOLIDATED FUND: Question

Will the Minister detail for members how he will deliver those measures to balance the Consolidated Fund that apply to the Education, Sport and Culture Department and are listed on page 56 of the accompanying report to P.129/2014 Draft Budget Statement 2015'?

Answer

The revised MTFP departmental Annex for 2015 sets out the level of savings to be achieved by each department to which the Minister's introduction refers as follows:

2015 Budget Measures

The proposed measures to balance the consolidated fund in 2015 – 2% cuts – would put significant pressure on our budget and is likely to have a direct impact on our ability to maintain frontline services. This is a particular concern in relation to standards, demographic pressures and the plans for Trackers, however we will continue to work on the effective delivery of these services within the constraints of the budget cut.

Due to the short time period between the publication of P129/2014 and 1 January 2015, the ESC department has reviewed its expenditure and made temporary plans to manage within the budget for 2015 and try to minimise the effect on front line services for 2015.

6. DEPUTY  M.R. HIGGINS  OF  ST.  HELIER  OF THE  CHIEF  MINISTER REGARDING REGISTRATION CARDS:

Question

Will the Chief Minister set out for members the number of people who have applied for registration cards under the new Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law 2012, breaking down the numbers into the nationality and country of origin of all those who have applied during the following periods:

1. 1st April 2014 to 30th June 2014; and
2. 1st July 2014 to 30th September 2014.

Answer

The figures below show all those people applying  for registration cards under the Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law 2012 during the requested time periods.

Applying for a registration card does not mean people are new to the Island, as everyone needs a registration card when moving house or changing jobs.

When issuing cards we ask for an applicant's nationality, not country of origin.

7. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE COST OF THE NEW POLICE STATION: Question

Will the Minister advise members:

1. the cost of the new police station at the time of the States decision to proceed with the Green Street car park site;
2. details of all subsequent amendments to the design and construction of the building and the site together with their associated costs and the reasons for the amendments and changes.

Answer

1. The decision to proceed with the construction of the new Police station on the Green Street site was taken by the Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources under delegated authority on the 19th September 2014, when approving the drawings and accepting the lowest tender under paragraph 1(d) of Standing Order 168 (decision reference: MD-TR-2014-0106).

At this time, the total costs of the project, which includes both the development of the new Police Station and Headquarters and the extension to Green Street car park, were identified as £24.37m. This is in line with the available budget of £24.371m which comprises £22.871m for the Police Station and £1.5m for the extension to the car park.

Members will recall that, when answering an oral question from Deputy Le Fondré on the 3rd June 2014, the Minister for Treasury and Resources set out the project cost estimate and stated his intention to seek a contribution from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund to

meet the costs of  identified  items within the scheme. On the 19th September  2014,  the Minister  for  Treasury  and  Resources  agreed  by  public  ministerial  decision,  following consideration and endorsement by the Council of Ministers, to the application of £1.81m

from the Criminal Offences Confiscation Fund to the Police Station capital budget (decision reference: MD-TR-2014-0105). This sum forms part of the overall project budget.

2. Since the above decision, there have been no amendments to the design and construction of the building and no associated cost implications. A contractor has been appointed, construction work has started on site and the Minister fully expects the development to be delivered within the current budget allocation.

8. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING A SUBMISSION MADE BY THE FORMER CHIEF OFFICER OF THE STATES OF JERSEY POLICE:

Question

Will the Minister advise members whether she will be publishing to members a redacted copy of the submission of the former States of Jersey Police Chief to the Wiltshire Police (Operation Haven) which her predecessor advised the Assembly would be published after the release of the Wiltshire Report?

Answer

On 11 September 2012, in response to an oral question by the former Deputy Shona Pitman, when asked about the publication of the affidavit submitted to the Wiltshire investigation by the former Chief of Police, my predecessor said the following:

As a follow-on from previous answers, I needed to obtain specialist legal advice on the issue of libel. That advice was that, as I was not under any legal duty to make the statement - it is a statement, not an affidavit - public, the risks of a libel action were substantial. As a result of this, it became clear that there would need to be substantially more redaction of the document, probably with whole sections being redacted. Indeed I wondered whether it might be better to ask the former Chief of Police to rewrite his statement so as to explain his position while omitting the potentially libellous references. However, during the summer there was a further development with what purports to be the majority of the statement being placed with minimal redaction on a blog site. In the light of this I cannot now properly proceed with this task as originally envisaged because any person reading a fully redacted version could then find elsewhere the full text, which would completely defeat the whole purpose of redaction. I have to say that throughout this process, including the disciplinary process, I have constantly faced a situation in which confidential documents have been put into the public domain and this is yet a further example of that.

In response to the follow-up question he then added:

I must make the position clear. In relation to this situation, I was not under a duty to do this piece of work. I was urged to do so by the former Scrutiny Panel. I decided so to do, so that alongside the Wiltshire Report could stand, for posterity, the former Chief Officer's statements in a redacted form. Redaction was incredibly important because there were all sorts of allegations contained there that should not be in the public domain: references to individuals. I have to think about fairness to the other individuals involved. Now, the fact is that purported versions of the document now do exist on another website. Frankly, I cannot go ahead. It would simply be totally unfair to the people who should have the benefit of the process of redaction. I do, however, still leave open the possibility of going back to the former Chief Officer, as I have mentioned, and saying to him: "Look, we cannot now do this as originally intended because this has been cut across by the irresponsible actions of people who have put an unredacted form into the public domain but would you like, as an alternative, to have the opportunity to produce an alternative statement which takes out the potentially libellous matters?" That, I think, is the very best I can do.

On first consideration the concerns that my predecessor expressed in 2012 appear to me to be as valid today as they were at the time of his statement in this Assembly. Even were I, after further advice, to consider it otherwise I would also need to consider whether or not it would be appropriate now to publish a redacted copy of the submission in the light of the terms of reference of the Independent Jersey Care Inquiry.

9. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GRANTS MADE FROM THE INNOVATION FUND:

Question

Will the Minister advise members of each and every grant/loan that has been made from the Innovation Fund explaining:

1. to whom the grant/payment was made;
2. the purpose of the grant/loan;
3. the amount paid;
4. the conditions, if any, attached to each grant/loan;
5. the return or benefit, if any, that the Department would expect to receive from the recipient for the grant/loan and the average timescale set for this;
6. what due diligence, if any, was carried out on the recipients; and,
7. whether the number of employees working for the recipient in the Island is a consideration when applying the grant, and if not why not?

Answer

The Jersey Innovation Fund became operational at the beginning of 2014, since when the Advisory Board has met on a monthly basis to discuss applications for funding:

1. To date, the Minister for Economic Development (the Minister) has approvedtwo loans from the Jersey Innovation Fund (the JIF). The recipients of these loans are:

• Stumpydog Innovations Ltd
• Total Billing Solutions Ltd

2. The first of these recipients requested a loan to support the development of a product entitled BabyHub': an innovative, portable play-pen for babies.

Such a loan will enable Stumpydog Innovations Ltd to secure initial stocks of product, support product selling-in in the UK and international markets, and secure distribution deals in key markets.

The second, requested a loan to support the development of a product entitled MediBooks': an innovative billing system that has the potential to play an important part in the reforms currently going on in the Health services of both Jersey and the UK.

Such a loan will enable Total Billing Solutions Ltd to pursue a combination of further product research and development, but also to expand its sales & marketing activities within the UK and international markets.

3. Total funding released from the JIF to date is £410,000
4. This information cannot be shared, due to its commercial sensitivity
5. The amount of the loan, plus interest. Both loans are repayable over a five year period
6. In making any recommendation to the Minister, the JIF Advisory Board (the Advisory Board) confirm:

1. That their assessment has been undertaken in accordance with the assessment framework, as detailed within the Operational Terms of Reference (P.124/2012 Amd.)
2. That the assessment and due diligence has been appropriate for the loan of that level and nature
3. That the assessment and due diligence has been appropriate to inform the recommendation
4. Whether any other external expert opinion, assessment or diligence is required and has been sought

7. The States of Jersey Economic Advisers Unitundertake a comprehensive Economic Impact Assessment (EIA) against each application before the Advisory Board makes a recommendation to the Minister.

One of the factors fundamental to any such EIA is the number of full time equivalent employees (FTE) based on-Island and the forecast growth of local employment as a result of receiving JIF support.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE SERVICE LEVEL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT AND LES AMIS:

Question

Will the Minister release the terms of the Service Level Agreement between the Department and Les Amis covering the provision of group home, outreach and respite care services and state how service levels compare with UK or international standards, in particular in the terms and conditions and training of care workers?

Answer

The Service Level Agreement forms a commercial contract between Health and Social Services and Les Amis and, as such, the department could not share details of the document with any States Member, or other third party, without the express consent of Les Amis.

In any event, it would not be appropriate for details of the SLA to be discussed in a public domain, as the contract contains commercially sensitive information. My Department and the Management at Les Amis would, however, be prepared to meet with Deputy Southern privately to discuss any specific issues he may have with the agreement.

The terms and conditions for staff working for Les Amis is an operational issue, and is a matter for Les Amis. It does not form part of the SLA and the information is not shared with the Health and Social Services Department

11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE MINIMUM WAGE:

Question

Will the Minister advise –

1. What mechanisms, if any, are in place to check that employers are paying at least the minimum wage and what conditions apply in order to engage such mechanisms?
2. On how many occasions, if any, have employers been investigated for allegedly failing to pay the minimum wage and in how many cases have prosecutions taken place?
3. Whether any complaint has been registered on behalf of Gigabit Field Force (GFF) employees relating tothe conditions placed on hours worked on Gigabit Jersey by CH2M, with only hours worked on successfully completed connections being registered for payment, and how this relates to the application of minimum wage requirements?

Answer

1. The Employment (Jersey) Law 2003 provides that the Minister for Social Security may appoint officers or assign responsibility to officers toact for the purposes ofthe Law. The powers of the assigned officers of the Social Security Department's Contributions and Enforcement team include thepowerto visit premisestoinspectand require an explanation of records kept in relation to the Employment Law, and to require the production ofany other information that might reasonably be required in orderto establish whether the Law has been complied with. The exercise of these powers may be triggered by an affected employee orany third party advising the Social Security Department of a suspected breach of the minimum wage provisions. Officers would take into account any information provided and consider whether to undertake an inspection of that business.

An enforcement officer may visit a company and ask to inspect the employer's wage records or require them to be produced on reasonable notice. An employer who fails to comply with the minimum wage provisions may be served with an enforcement notice requiring that the Law be complied  with. In accordance with the Department's Business Plan,  employer surveys are also carried out routinely for new employers that registered in the last 12 to 18 months to check that all documents are in order.

Social Security Enforcement officers and officers of the Jersey Advisory and Conciliation Service (JACS) routinely advise employers of their obligations under the Employment Law. If an employee who is not being paid the minimum wage makes contact with JACS, JACS officers will support the employee to make enquiries of the employer and to assert their right to the correct wage, or, with the permission of the employee, JACS officers will contact the employer directly to provide advice on the correct wage and how to calculate it.

The Employment Law also provides that, if an employee has reasonable grounds to believe that he or she has not been paid the minimum wage, the employee has a right, following reasonable notice to the employer in writing, to inspect and to copy relevant employment records. If the employer does not allow access to records within 14 days, the employee may lodge a complaint with the Tribunal. If the Tribunal upholds the complaint, it may instruct the employer to pay the employee the minimum wage pay that is owed as well as a sum up to 80 times the current minimum hourly wage.

2. During2013, a totalof372 employers weresurveyed.Ofthese, 5 employers were found to have not paid thecorrect minimum wage to a totalof 5 employees. An enforcement notice was issued to one of the employers. All minimum wage issues were resolved.

During 2014, a total of 339 employers have been surveyed to date. Of these, 7 employers were found to have an issue relating to the minimum wage in respect of a total of 19 employees. All issues have been resolved without the need for an enforcement notice.

Since the Employment Law came into force in 2005, there have been no prosecutions in relation to non-payment of the minimum wage.

3. If the Social Security Department receives a complaint aboutthe employment practices of a particular business, officers will consider whether toundertake an inspection. The Minister cannot report to the States Assembly as to whether a complaint has been received or whether any particular business has been inspected.

12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THJE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE DELIVERY OF GIGABIT JERSEY:

Question

Will the Minister update members on the previous and current targets for the delivery of Gigabit Jersey home and business connections by Jersey Telecom through its subsidiary Gigabit Field Force (GFF), including what proportion of -

1. homes; and
2. businesses

have so far been connected along with how many remain to be completed? Answer

The previous and current target for broadband connections remain the same and the current status and year end targets of the three separate phases of work involved in the programme are as follows:

The original target date for the completion of switchover of all broadband subscribers was 31st December 2016.

The Core network equipment' relates to equipment installations in the JT network, most of which resides in the various exchange site across the Island.

The Premises Passed' element is the spine of the fibre cable network that runs throughout the Island.

The Premises Connected' element relates to the final metres of fibre cable that connect the spine of the Gigabit network (the Premises Passed' piece) directly into the individual premises.

The Minister is advised that the programme did not distinguish between homes and business as it was replacing copper connections with fibre connections irrespective of whether it was a home or a business.

The Minister is advised that the delivery of the programme is currently subject to a review, which will be completed by 30 June 2015.

13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE DEKLIVERY OF GIGABIT JERSEY: Question

Will the Minister inform members of the latest predictions for tax revenues for 2016 given the forecasts for economic growth in the UK, Europe, and the world, which have emerged from the latest G20 meeting, and what regard, if any, is being given to this when considering the budget for 2016?

Answer

The Treasury are in the process of updating the States income forecasts to ensure that work beginning on the new MTFP 2016-2019 and Strategic Plan are as up to date as possible. This work is being informed by new economic assumptions to 2019 provided by the States Economics Unit which take account of the latest information on the global economic outlook, including that highlighted by the OECD ahead of the G20 meeting. A further full update of all States income forecasts will be carried out in February/March 2015, following the provisional 2014 outturn figures.

Ahead of these revised figures, the current forecast of tax revenues for 2016 was provided in R136/2014, Long-Term Revenue Planning Review, alongside the 2015 Budget debate. These figures have been updated for the tax and duty proposals agreed at the budget debate in September.

14. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING AN ALLEGED DISPUTE BETWEEN GIGABIT EMPLOYEES AND THE THEIR EMPLOYER:

Question

Will the Minister, as the shareholder representative, advise:

1. Whether he has investigated any dispute between Gigabit employees and their employer Gigabit Field Force, a wholly owned subsidiary of Jersey Telecom, concerning the accuracy ofthe recording of hours worked by Gigabit employees, and if not will he doso?
2. What steps, if any, he has taken to resolve anydispute, and if none, what steps will he take to bring about resolution?
3. Whether he considers the use of zero-hours contracts to be appropriate to the delivery of Gigabit connections and if so, can he offer a justification for this?

5. Whether he considers that, when employees work between the hours of 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. and their place ofwork may be anywhere on the Island, non-payment for travel time, waiting time (while the owner of a property is contacted)or hours worked when a connection is not completed, constitutes best employment practice?

Answer

(a)The Minister has met with the CEO and senior officers from JT to gain an understanding of the

circumstances and facts around this issue, and has emphasised the importance of resolving them fairly, recognising that JT is as interested in ensuring the accurate recording of hours as the workers and the sub-contractor, CH2M Hill. The Minister has made it clear that he expects full and speedy resolution of any issues in line with the requirements of the Memorandum of Understanding with JT.

(b)The Deputy understands that it is for the independent board of directors to run the company, but

in the Minister's role as shareholder representative he has emphasised the points made under (a) and highlighted the role of the company in terms of the Memorandum of Understanding between JT and the Minister. The Minister is, however, in no doubt about the seriousness with which JT are treating this matter.

(c)Zero-hours contracts are just one form of engagement used by the company and the majority of

the 104 contractors are on a minimum guaranteed 30 hour per week contracts. The Minister believes that there is a place for zero-hours contracts in the market generally. In the case of delivering Gigabit connections where the work requirements fluctuate and there is no guarantee of work from day-to-day or week-to-week, the Minister believes it an appropriate basis for employment but would restate the importance of clear terms and conditions that are fairly applied.

(d)Taking the items listed at face value the Minister would agree that it would appear not to

constitute best practice. However, the Minister is advised that to get to the truth of these issues, JT and CH2M Hill have been holding helpful surgeries with workers over the last two weeks where concerns (such as those listed) were more clearly laid out and GFF/JT/CH2M requirements were more clearly understood.

[9:45]

4. Oral Questions

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Minister for Housing regarding security of tenure for residents of lodging houses:

Does the Minister have any plans to bring forward proposals to improve security of tenure for residents of lodging houses?

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Housing):

All rented accommodation in Jersey that is self-contained is already covered by the Residential Tenancy Law, which gives tenants security of tenure. This does include a significant majority of lodging house tenants. However I am keen to see what more can be done for the minority of occupants who do not have this protection. For this reason, one of my first acts as Minister has been to ask officers to undertake a review of this area. I will be reporting on this in the first quarter of next year.

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

That is good to know. Is there any particular thing you may anticipate that would be useful to progress with to improve tenure for residents? Any specifics she thinks might be a good idea?

The Deputy of Trinity :

One thing too is about increasing the minimum standards. I think that is important, as we have discussed here before, but it is the security of tenure, especially for the minority of occupants who are not covered. But I am very happy to work with the Deputy . If he thinks of any specific area that should be covered then I am very happy to talk to him about it.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Could the Minister inform Members what distinguishes those who already have some protection and those who do not? Could she delineate between the 2 groups? She said some have protection, some have not.

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, it depends on many factors, which includes the type of accommodation that they are living in and what the law says. Self-contained means that only the occupants use it so it must contain all of the following: a bath, a shower, wash hand basin, a kitchen or kitchenette, a place to sleep or toilets. If it is not part of the self-contained then my understanding is that it does not fall into the Residency Tenancy Law.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Supplementary, if I may. Has the Minister any idea of what proportions, what numbers, she is talking about who are not covered by this protection?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, about 600 fall under this category and 25 per cent of that 600 do not fall into the Residential Tenancy Law.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Can the Minister confirm that there is a political at will to end this discrimination and this apartheid, if you like, about those who are caught outside of the regulations?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I think that I made that very clear in my original answer, and I am very happy to work with Deputy Tadier as well.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

Supplementary question. Will the Minister confirm that there is talk already in her department from officers about whether or not the unqualified sector and the qualified sector is the optimum situation, i.e. should we just be having one type of residential status for rentals rather than 2?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I cannot confirm whether that is or is not. That is something that I need to look at and get further information about.

The Bailiff :

Do you wish a final question, Deputy Mézec ?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

No, thank you. Just to thank the Minister for her helpful answer.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources as shareholder representative regarding the contractual relationship between Gigabit Field Force and CH2M:

Will the Minister, as shareholder representative, examine the contractual relationship between Gigabit Field Force and CH2M to establish whether the latter can deliver broadband connections at a profit without being required to reduce overheads such as the wage bill for its workforce?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

With the greatest of respect to the Deputy , CH2M HILL are a specialist global American company with 26,000 employees and assets in excess of 3 billion dollars. There is no basis on which I can accurately assess whether this company can deliver broadband connections at a profit other than to say they are clearly not short of experience, they are in business to make a profit, and freely entered into a contractual arrangement with J.T. (Jersey Telecom) to install the Gigabit Jersey infrastructure. However, what I am concerned about is that they live up to all the obligations that they freely entered into in Jersey and one of those obligations is the payment of wages for works completed. This is not a matter of making reductions elsewhere to ensure that a profit is secured, but a matter of CH2M paying legitimate obligations as they fall due, one of which is workers' pay.

4.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :

Under the Memorandum of Understanding between the Minister for Treasury and Resources and Jersey Telecom, Jersey Telecom has the objective of being a good employer in its business operations. Will the Minister state what his criteria are for being a good employer and whether he considers that Jersey Telecom, through the Gigabit Field Force, has succeeded in its objectives.

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think, in summary, a good employer is one who meets all his legal obligations; that is an absolute minimum. With regard to the Gigabit project and whether indeed CH2M HILL have managed to fulfil all their obligations, there have clearly been some teething problems and I am pleased to say that having called the Chief Executive and staff from J.T. into my office, we now appear to be having some progress, and I am delighted that all parties are working together and seeking to resolve the misunderstandings and difficulties that have been the case in recent times.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

Can the Minister confirm whether he considers that when employers work between the hours of

0. a.m. and 7.00 p.m. at their place ofwork - wherever that may be - non-payment for travel time, waiting time, et cetera, at the owner's property for hours worked when a connection is not completed, does this constitute best employment practice?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think the Deputy is referring in particular to those employees of the 104 - about half, 49 I believe - who are on zero-hour contracts. On those contractual arrangements the terms are simply for work undertaken. What one needs to focus on is what employees have been paid, on average around £36,000. Up to July of last year, the average employee has received the highest it has had, £48,000, and more than double the minimum wage has been paid to employees for the work undertaken.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Listening to the Minister one would think that everything is rosy and there are no problems with Gigabit and their sub-contractors and the employees, whereas we know the reality is very much different. Can the Minister answer specifically that whether on a zero-hour contract or not, when driving between one job, when waiting at a premises for an owner to turn up, that all constitutes work and that work should be paid for, especially when the fall-back guarantor is the States of Jersey as the shareholder of Jersey Telecom?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I would first of all say, and make it absolutely clear, that all is not rosy in the garden, that is patently obvious. There have been problems on all sides and I have no doubt whatsoever about that. With regard to the arrangements of payment for driving time or waiting at a premises, that should be contained within the contractual arrangements which are undertaken and the employees are made aware of it before they start the project.

The Bailiff :

Do you wish a final question, Deputy Southern ?

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister, as shareholder representative, have the ability to call an extraordinary general meeting of Jersey Telecom and, if so, will he do so in order to discuss the treatment of its G.F.F. (Gigabit Field Force) employees and to examine the ability of CH2M to deliver its targets for completion of Gigabit Jersey in budget and on time?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

In extreme circumstances, yes, I would have that ability. But frankly my first port of call has been to first of all call into my office the Chief Executive of J.T. and its senior team. I have done that. My intention very shortly is to speak to the board and have a general update, which I will do on a regular basis anyway. I expect J.T. to act in an appropriate manner with regard to this matter, and I believe they are now doing and making every effort to put these issues right.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Final supplementary. Can the Minister give a brief résumé of what his conversation was about yesterday and what solutions were offered by the representative of J.T.?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think the Deputy knows what the conversation was about. It was solely about this particular issue. I was interested to know how indeed the matter had arisen in the first place and how it was going to be resolved satisfactorily, and indeed the true extent of any problem that existed. I was given a clear outline from J.T. about the problems that had existed, the reasons for them. It would take me far too long if I were to outline the full extent of my 2-hour conversation here, but I am satisfied that there is progress being made by all sides and I am satisfied with what I have been told but I have been monitoring it and expect to hear an update next week.

3. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the disposal of Guernsey's waste:

Can the Minister state whether the department has been unable to provide the States of Guernsey with a competitive quote to provide temporary services for the disposal of Guernsey's waste using the Energy from Waste plant, and if so why?

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The Transport and Technical Services Department supplied Guernsey with indicative costs for the processing of waste in the La Collette Energy from Waste plant in August 2013. These costs were provided in response to an expression of interest request for the transport and treatment of residual waste from the States of Guernsey. The T.T.S. Department took care to point out to our Guernsey counterparts that while indicative costs could be provided the principle of importing waste into Jersey is still subject to States of Jersey approval and waste regulation. We are happy to continue to work with our Guernsey colleagues to develop a solution, which is beneficial to both Islands, however it must be remembered that the Jersey plant is relatively quite small and it is unlikely that it will be able to compete on a commercial gate fee basis with much larger European plants.

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

In the recent process the States of Guernsey asked 5 E.f.W (Energy from Waste) plants for expression of interest for disposal of Guernsey's waste. Of the 5 Jersey's gate charge was by far the highest. Does the Minister agree that the acceptance of waste for disposal from Guernsey would not only greatly assist the other bailiwick, tangibly demonstrating meaningful co-operation, but also provide vital income anywhere between £2 million and £4 million a year for which there is currently no other revenue source?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I agree with the Deputy of St. Helier that in an ideal world it would be beneficial for the Islands to work together and, indeed, we are. I can advise Members that the Guernsey Public Services Department are due to visit Jersey to continue with talks prior to Christmas of this year just on this very topic. However, I would also like to point out to Members that although we could offer Guernsey a cheap short-term solution to their waste problems we should not do so using Jersey taxpayers' money to subsidise such an activity.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

The Minister's answer has encouraged me. I just want to check that the price did include the capital depreciation of the cost of the actual plant and that is why it may be so high?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Yes, I am happy to confirm that is the case.

3. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier :

All over Europe countries are bidding on a commercial basis for waste as a fuel for Energy from Waste plants. Can the Minister assure the House that he has sufficient fuel for the Energy from Waste plant to generate the electricity for the C.I. grid that the business case for the E.f.W. plant was partially predicted on?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Yes, Jersey is producing currently some 70,000 tonnes per annum. The capacity in pure tonnage terms is 105 tonnes per annum but that is dependent on the calorific value of that tonnage. So it is not a straightforward matrix of weight. It is a matrix of the calorific value of that. But we do have sufficient waste to put through the plant for it to be running at reasonable efficiency and to create the energy that is required.

Deputy M. Tadier :

In his conversations with our Guernsey cousins will the Minister undertake to analyse what scope there is for recycling  in Guernsey  so  maybe Guernsey could avoid the disaster of having an oversized monstrosity on their shores, which we cannot now do.

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I am sorry too far off the subject of the original question. Any other questions? Deputy Lewis do you wish a final question?

4. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Can the Minister assure the House that he and his officers will do everything they can to maximise his potential opportunity for mutual benefit for both Islands?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Absolutely, but I am not going to do so at the detriment of Jersey taxpayers subsidising Guernsey taxpayers. There must be a win-win situation, which I am confident that we will be able to deliver.

[10:00]

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the department's Deputy Directors of Commissioning:

Will the Minister confirm whether both Deputy Directors of Commissioning have left or will be leaving the employ of the Health Department shortly, and outline what steps, if any, have been taken to fill those roles given that the officeholders were undertaking key pieces of work, including the Mental Health Strategy and Service Review?

Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services -

rapporteur):

It is neither the Minister's nor my intention to discuss or make statements in this Assembly on any personnel matters that relate to identifiable individuals other than to reassure Members that appropriate procedures are in place for dealing with all matters relating to the recruitment of staff within Health and Social Services. Both the Minister and I would be happy to meet with the Deputy privately outside of the Assembly to discuss any specific concerns or issues she may well have. I can however reassure the Assembly that the key work around the mental health strategy is on track.

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

One of the Deputy Commissioners was heavily involved in the primary care review, which is already delayed. Can the Assistant Minister tell me whether or tell the Assembly how this piece of work is going to be progressed in the absence of that key member of staff?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

The work is continuing on. It is being shared for the moment. We will, if required, bring in interim staff to assist us to further that work for the primary care review and community services review. G.P.s (general practitioners) are already involved within the primary care system and are working with us on the community services section of that as well. It is not our intention to seek to bring staff in from the U.K. (United Kingdom) but I am sure the Deputy will recognise that sometimes it is useful to bring an external view in to ensure that we are working in the best possible way going forward, and this may well give us an opportunity to do that in this particular case.

2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Can the Assistant Minister confirm that the mental health strategy and service review is going to be on schedule? My understanding was that the Minister for Health was going to report back to the Assembly with a timeline as to when this is going to be delivered. Can he assure us that there is not going to be any delay involved in that?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I can do that. I had a briefing earlier this morning that confirmed that that strategy is on schedule and continuing to go forward. I cannot give the timeline - I did not address the actual timeline this morning - but certainly the officers assured me there will be no delay in delivering that project.

5. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chairman of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel regarding the implementation of recommendation 7.19 of the report of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel S.R.7/2009:

Will the panel press for the implementation of recommendation 7.19 of the report of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel S.R.7/2009, namely that: "The Minister for Home Affairs should implement a new system, enabling independent members of the public to sit on the Board of Visitors."

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny

Panel):

The short answer to this question is we have no plans to at the moment. Can I give a brief background on this for new Members? There was a report published in 2009 by the Scrutiny Panel about the Prison Board of Visitors, which is comprised of 7 Jurats and they visit the prison regularly to ensure that it is being run efficiently, that there is good use of public funds, that there are no abuses and prisoners are treated fairly. The report produced was very well-evidenced, it was comprehensive and as a panel we do not feel that we need to rescrutinise this area. We did discuss the matter, as a panel, and we felt that this was perhaps a matter for the Minister given that Scrutiny have already looked at this issue.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

There was of course no suggestion that the area should be rescrutinised, and I am grateful that the current chairman thinks that that report was effective. The underlying question is a very basic one. Does the chairman and her panel - and I am sure they have had the time to discuss it - agree with the recommendation of that previous Scrutiny Panel that independent members of the public should sit on the Board of Visitors?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Personally, I do agree with that but the fact is the report has been done. The recommendations have been made by a different Scrutiny Panel and it has been passed on to the Minister, so I feel it is for the Minister to answer.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I do agree with the chair of the panel that it is down to the Minister. Unfortunately we have been waiting since 2009 and the actual recommendation does not bar Jurats, it just could be a mixed panel. Would the chair not consider, as she is a new chair, and we do also have a new Minister for Home Affairs, to meeting up and finding out whether this can be brought forward because it is very important. The people visiting to make sure that everything is okay are the same people who sit, not necessarily on each case, but they are the people who are putting the people in the prison. There is some sort of conflict there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

All I can say is we have discussed it as a panel; that was our decision. I can bring it up for discussion again with the panel.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

This proposition came to the States and was rejected by the Chamber on a tied vote. Will the chairman engage with the Minister appropriately to bring back a proposition to this effect to the House, and if the Minister does not agree to doing that will her panel bring a proposition to the House so that this House can resolve this issue once and for all?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

As I already stated, we have no plans to do that at the moment as a panel and I am certain that any Member could bring a proposition of this nature if they wished.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is it not more appropriate that a proposition which the chairman and presumably her panel's support is not brought to the House with their weight behind it rather than by a Back-Bencher should it prove necessary to resolve this issue?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Possibly but, I will state again, my answer is as a panel we have decided not to pursue this matter at present but I would invite Deputy Tadier , possibly, to come and talk to us about it if it was something that he feels to be important.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

I am quite happy as a member of a different Scrutiny Panel and also Back-Bencher to come and meet the panel and chairman, but it does seem that we have a potentially strange scenario where the chairman of the panel and seemingly all of the members of that panel support the recommendation, agree that the report was a very good one and it was well-evidenced and that we do need to get to a situation where the Board of Visitors is not solely and entirely comprised of Jurats but the panel themselves do not wish to take any action to achieve that goal, even though they have got a readymade Scrutiny Report there to be launched in the Assembly. Can I ask the chairman to give an undertaking that she will seriously think about who is best placed to lodge this potential proposition, if a proposition is necessary, whether it is her panel with the evidenced work already done or a member of a different Scrutiny Panel and a Back-Bencher?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I will speak to my panel about this again but the fact is that we are currently setting our work programme at the moment and we do have other priorities. This was something that was carried out by a previous Scrutiny Panel. We are a new panel and we have new priorities. So we will have to see where this comes on our priority list.

6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the possibility of a structural deficit in States finances from 2016:

Will the Minister outline his definition of what constitutes a structural deficit in States finances and state whether he believes there will be one going forward from 2016 based on the current figures and projections available to him, giving his reasons for this?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

There are of course a number of different definitions of structural deficit. I would describe a structural deficit as a permanent mismatch where expenditure is greater than revenue over a defined period of time. Whether there is a structural deficit going forward from 2016 is a complex question requiring extensive analysis and where there is no simple answer. I listen to expert advice on such important economic and fiscal questions. The Fiscal Policy Panel in their 2014 annual report stated that there is a risk of an underlying structural shortfall between States income and expenditure. Let us be clear. There is a risk but we do not know the answer and perhaps more critically the scale of any structural deficit, if indeed there is one. The F.P.P. (Fiscal Policy Panel) have stated that they will advise us further on the underlying structural position in the next report they produce. This is due to be published at the end of January to assist in the preparation for the next Medium-Term Financial Plan.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does the Minister not accept that when we have a tax system whereby the only companies that pay tax are financial services firms who pay 10 per cent and utilities who pay 20 per cent and no other companies are paying any tax whatsoever, and that the only people paying tax are employees of those companies .. the owners do not pay it because the deemed distribution rules were deemed unacceptable to Europe and discriminatory. So therefore does the Minister not accept that he has a problem? He will not be able to get sufficient revenue from companies, any companies that he brings into the Island. The only people who are going to be paying tax will be their employees, so therefore does he not accept that unless we change our tax system we will be going forward with a structural deficit because there simply will not be enough money to pay for all the services we provide?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I do not choose to view this as a problem. I choose to view it as a challenge. Yes, of course there are challenges. Jersey is not the only place that is suffering and has seen, due to the economic climate over the last 7 or 8 years', extremely difficult climate where revenues have fallen. Tax receipts have fallen. Our structure is, in many respects, quite unique but it had to be produced for a competitive environment that we were living in and I believe that although there needs to be adjustments, and there have been over the last few years, that it meets the needs that we have at the moment. That does not mean that we are not going to suffer from continuing challenges to our revenue line and continuing challenges to expenditure. As such, we are going to have to ensure that we drive for even greater efficiencies through States departments; that is going to be absolutely essential for all planning.