States Meeting Transcript - 6th November 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

THURSDAY, 6th NOVEMBER 2014

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................7

1. The Minister for Treasury and Resources ...............................................7

1. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:..................................................................8

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................10
2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................10
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................10
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................11
5. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................11
6. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:.......................................................11
7. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John:........................................................11
8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................12
9. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................12
10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................12
11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:....................................................13
12. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................13
13. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:......................................................13
14. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................14
15. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................14
16. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................14
17. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................14
18. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................15
19. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................15
20. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:....................................................15

2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence:.............................................15

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................18
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................19
4. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................20
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................20
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................20
7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................20
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................21
9. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:.......................................................21
10. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:.....................................................21
11. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................22
12. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................22
13. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................22

14. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................23
15. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin:.....................................................23

2. The Minister for Health and Social Services............................................24

1. Senator A.K.F. Green:..................................................................24

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................26
2. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................27
3. Connétable M.J. Paddock of St. Ouen:..................................................27
4. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:..................................................27
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................28
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28

8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
9. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................29
10. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ..................................................29
11. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen : ....................................................29
12. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................30
13. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................30
14. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................30
15. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................31
16. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................31
17. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................31
18. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................31

2. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..................................................................32

1. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:......................................................34
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................34
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................34
4. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................35
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................35
7. Deputy P.D. McLinton: ................................................................35
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................36
9. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................36
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................36
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................36
12. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................37
13. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement:......................................................37
14. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37
15. Deputy P.D. McLinton:..............................................................38
16. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................38
17. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................38
18. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................38
19. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................39

3. The Minister for External Relations....................................................40

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache :................................................................40

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................41
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................41

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................42
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................42
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................42
6. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................43
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................43
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................43
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44

2. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................44

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................46
2. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................46
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................47
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................47
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................47
6. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................48
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................48
9. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................49
10. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ..................................................49
11. Deputy M.J. Norton: ................................................................50
12. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................50
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................50

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................52 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................52

4. ADJOURNMENT UNTIL 3.15 p.m. PROPOSED.....................................52

Senator I.J. Gorst :............................................................................52

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................53
2. Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour:.....................................53

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................54

5. The Minister for Transport and Technical Services....................................54

1. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence:......................................................55

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................56
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................57
3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................57
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................57
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................57
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................57
7. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................58
8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................58
9. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................58
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................58
11. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................59
12. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................59
13. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................59
14. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................59
15. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................60

16. Deputy P.D. McLinton:..............................................................60
17. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................60
18. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................60
19. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................61
20. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................61
21. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................61
22. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................61
23. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................62
24. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................62
25. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................62

2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :......................................................................62

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................64
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................64
3. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................64
4. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :...............................................64
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................65
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................65
7. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................65
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................66

9. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................66
10. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................66
11. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................67
12. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................67
13. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................67
14. The Deputy of St. Peter:.............................................................67
15. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................67
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................67
17. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................68
18. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................68
19. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................68
20. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................68
21. The Connétable of Grouville :........................................................69
22. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................69
23. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................69
24. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................69
25. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................69

6. The Minister for Home Affairs..........................................................71

1. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................71

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................73
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................73
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................73
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................74
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................74
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................74
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................75
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................75
9. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................75
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................75

11. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................76
12. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................76
13. The Connétable of St. Ouen : ........................................................76
14. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................76
15. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................77
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................77
17. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................77
18. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................77
19. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................78
20. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................78
21. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................78
22. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................78
23. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................79
24. The Connétable of St. Martin : .......................................................79

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................79

1. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................81
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................81
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................82
4. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................82
5. Deputy S. Pinel:........................................................................83
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................83

7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................83
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................84
9. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................84
10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................85
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................85
12. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................86
13. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................86
14. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................86

CONTINUATION OF MEETING BEYOND 5:30 P.M........................................87

7. The Minister for Economic Development ..............................................89

1. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................90

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................91
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................92
3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................92
4. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................92
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................92
6. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................93
7. Deputy S.N. Wickenden of St. Helier : ..................................................93
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................93
9. Deputy M.J. Norton:....................................................................93
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................94
11. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................94
12. The Deputy of St. Peter:.............................................................95
13. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................95
14. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................95
15. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:.................................................95

16. Deputy S.M. Bree of St. Clement:...................................................96
17. Deputy S.M. Bree: ..................................................................96
18. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................96

2. Deputy A.D. Lewis :......................................................................97

1. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................99
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................99
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................100
4. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................100
5. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:......................................................100
6. The Connétable of Grouville :..........................................................101
7. Senator P.F. Routier: ..................................................................101
8. The Deputy of St. Peter : ..............................................................101
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................102
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................102
11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ..............................................................103
12. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..............................................................104
13. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..............................................................104
14. Deputy M. Tadier :..................................................................105

9. ARRANGEMENTS FOR CONTINUATION OF MEETING ..........................106 ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................108

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

The Bailiff :

Before we start perhaps it would just help if I reminded Members of what is going to happen. The Chief Minister will propose his candidates, each nomination must be seconded. I shall then invite other nominations for the particular ministerial post. If there are not any then the Chief Minister's candidate will be appointed. If there are, and later seconded, then we will move into an election. When candidates are proposed and seconded, no speeches, it is just simply to propose and second them. The arrangement, if there is an election, is that the other candidates must withdraw. Now in the interests of fairness, I have directed that they should not have access to electronic equipment in the place where they will be because otherwise it would be possible for them to be informed as to the sort of questions which are being asked here and the whole point of them being in purdah is that they should not get any benefit by hearing what is going on. Then each candidate speaks for up to 10 minutes and then there will be questions for up to 20 minutes. There will be a bell after 9 minutes of a speech, and after 19 minutes of questions, and then a second bell after 10 minutes of a speech and after 20 minutes of questions and we are going to apply the University Challenge rules, so that there will be an absolute stop at that stage, no matter what state we are in, whether a question is halfway through or not. That is really again to be fair between all different candidates. In questions I will agree to each questioner if he or she wishes to ask a supplementary but it must be a genuine supplementary. I am not going to agree to a Member, in effect, having 2 questions on different subjects. It must be a supplementary to the first one. In relation to voting, if there is simply 2 candidates then we will vote electronically but if there are 3 or more it will be done by ballot with the Attorney, the Deputy Viscount and the Assistant Greffier acting as scrutineers. If there is any rejection of a nominated candidate put forward by the Chief Minister then the Chief Minister is entitled to rethink things either in the order he wants Ministers proposed or in the identity of any nominees, and if we need to adjourn for a few minutes for him to think about that, we will do so. I hope that clarifies the procedure. I begin by asking the Chief Minister to read out his declaration.

1. The Minister for Treasury and Resources Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister Designate)

I should like to propose for the office of Minister for Treasury and Resources Senator Maclean. Thank you.

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for the position of Minister for Treasury and Resources?

Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin :

I would like to nominate Deputy Le Fondré for the position. The Bailiff :

Is that seconded?  [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Then we simply have 2 nominations. In which case therefore would Deputy Le Fondré please withdraw with the member of the Greffier staff who will look after him. We move on to the procedures. I will invite Senator Maclean to speak for up 10 minutes and no more.

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Before I start could I just seek clarification? Did you say there is a bell at one minute? The Bailiff :

No, 9 minutes, so one minute to go.

1. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

The responsibility and role of Minister for Treasury and Resources over the next 3½ years will be more challenging than it has probably ever been. The world economy is recovering but it is fragile with risks on the downside that could impact our revenues and recovery. Indeed we saw earlier this year how changing circumstances led to lower than forecast revenues and a £95 million budget deficit. I am not one to turn down a challenge, having served 2 terms at Economic Development Department during a period covering the most severe global financial crisis imaginable. I led the transformation of that department, reducing the headcount, delivering efficiencies and new ways of supporting the economy more effectively for less. We took a new approach to supporting business by largely outsourcing delivery to professionals with the right expertise. This led to the creation of Jersey Business to support and develop the vitally important small business sector, and Digital Jersey to develop and promote the exciting new digital sector. We established the brand Locate Jersey comprising an in-house team to drive inward investment so critical to the diversification of our economy. We created the £5 million Innovation Fund to stimulate innovation, creativity, job opportunities and business growth. Against stiff opposition we redesigned the beach lifeguard service, introducing the R.N.L.I. (Royal National Lifeboat Institution), reducing the cost to the public purse and improving the service. Ninety per cent of our beach lifeguards are now local, trained to the highest standards by the R.N.L.I. We undertook structural changes, integrating the harbours and airport, removing duplication and reducing operating costs by more than £1 million while improving services. We developed and guided through the States numerous complex new laws to boost financial services like Foundations as well as modernising the Intellectual Property Law and introducing a Financial Services Ombudsman. The Ombudsman Law was developed by working with Guernsey to deliver a pan-Channel Islands solution. I strongly believe that there are more opportunities for pan-Channel Islands co-operation that can drive further efficiencies and benefits for both Islands. The slightly redefined role of Minister for Treasury and Resources proposed by the Chief Minister principally involves responsibility for public finances, including domestic tax and expenditure, corporate procurement and States-owned utilities. A role that is perhaps more about economics than accounting and one that will require the desire, commitment and capability to reform the way we have approached and managed public finances. The next Minister for Treasury and Resources will have approximately 150 days to put together the next

Medium-Term Financial Plan. This will cover department spending for the period 2016 to 2019. In preparation for this I would ask for an immediate review of revenue forecasts and test the way in which they are compiled. In an environment where revenues are coming under increasing pressure and costs have continued to rise we will have to work harder together to find some innovative solutions to provide the quality public services at an affordable price. For the avoidance of any doubt I do not believe that raising taxes is an innovative solution. Indeed, any tax rises should always be the very last option, not the first, as is often the case with so many governments. If we want to have a competitive economy and deliver sustainable growth we must maintain a lower and simple tax regime. In the immediate future we face 2 key funding priorities at Health and Education. To deliver long-term sustainable funding for these and balanced budgets we will need to make some difficult decisions.

[9:45]

These will undoubtedly involve a combination of reprioritisation of existing resources, increasing revenues through a growing economy, improving productivity, driving efficiency savings and cutting out unnecessary costs and waste. Over the next 3½ years we will need to target investment

to support and develop growth opportunities for the economy. Aside from direct investment I would review a range of possible fiscal incentives, including tax breaks to attract investment and drive growth. Although economic growth is essential for job creation and revenues we also need to work much harder and faster to cut out unnecessary expenditure and waste. That is a key part of the focus of the public sector reform programme or modernisation, as I like to call it. A programme that must deliver a modern, efficient and cost-effective public sector. The foundation has been set and departments are embracing change with Lean methodology delivering better services for less. There are good examples in parts of Health and Social Security where the programme has been trialled. Lean must be rolled out faster across all departments. We must deliver eGovernment, modernise working practices, consolidate office space and streamline delivery. I will work tirelessly with all Ministers and all departments to modernise the public sector. Treasury also run corporate procurement and I want to review how this operates, especially contracts like travel. There are probably greater efficiencies to be delivered with a new procurement strategy. I would also like to see a simplification of the process to ensure more local businesses, whatever their size, have the opportunity to tender for more States contracts. I fully support Supply Jersey, the automated platform, a tremendous eGovernment initiative developed by the procurement team that should go live early next year. It should provide good opportunities for small local businesses and to deliver much better value at the same time. The States own or have substantial holdings in utility companies comprising J.T. (Jersey Telecom), Jersey Water and Jersey Electricity. These represent public assets worth hundreds of millions of pounds. The shareholder responsibility for these holdings falls to the Minister for Treasury and Resources, a responsibility to challenge these companies to ensure a fair financial return and good services for Islanders and businesses alike. I want to consider better ways to manage the shareholder responsibility and improve governance. One option could be to follow the U.K. (United Kingdom) or Guernsey models of establishing a single non-political board of experts to manage such holdings, although establishing a board would involve a cost. These are substantial and, in many respects, complex businesses that need professional oversight and a clear shareholder strategy. By managing them better with a professional board, improving their value and returns, any cost should be more than covered. On the subject of boards and panels across the States I do think we need an urgent review to ensure consistency and value, some could undoubtedly be consolidated. In terms of tax, tighter compliance should be a focus to ensure we collect what is owed. I would also consider a tax amnesty similar to those offered by other jurisdictions. There are clear opportunities for sharing of information between Social Security and Treasury to improve efficiency and compliance at both ends. I want to see greater co-operation and automation of processes. As part of eGovernment online tax assessments must be delivered as a priority. There are obvious symmetries between Social Security and Treasury. For example, I would like to see the collection systems brought together along with debt recovery and compliance. Why are both departments duplicating the same functions at great cost when they could operate as a single team from one office? As the economy

recovers we must start to build-up reserves again by allocating revenue to the Stabilisation Fund. Long-term planning is essential. The long-term capital programme has £35 million per annum allocated over the next 20 years but will need careful review and probably reprofiling to meet short- term pressures. Ensuring that we continue to deliver capital projects in the short term is key to our economic recovery and consistent with advice from the Fiscal Policy Panel. The problem has been getting projects started because under the Public Finances Law the full funding needs to be made available before commencement. This needs to be addressed so that projects can commence on time. In conclusion, I believe that over the last 6 years, as Minister for Economic Development, I have demonstrated the leadership and capabilities to deliver creative solutions to problems and to drive positive change. I ask Members for their support. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

We now have up to 20 minutes for questions to Senator Maclean. Any questions?

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

In preparation of today I was reading some ancient documents dated from 2005 and I found this statement: "Policy makers, States Members and Ministers have to be more questioning of simple platitudes of strategic policy aims and think more about design and implementation of the necessary resources to make them happen. Platitudes are easy, making things improve across the board is a bigger challenge." It came from one of our advisers on Scrutiny. The first statement under "Economy, Jobs and Growth" on the potential Minister's manifesto was: "Review and remove unnecessary red tape, regulation and legislation." Will the potential Minister tell us where that unnecessary red tape, regulation and legislation is and what he will remove?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Yes, it is very difficult to be precise at this time. We have undertaken, in fact I have commissioned a report before the end of this political term at Economic Development called The cost of doing business in Jersey Review, which is being undertaken by a major accountancy firm. They are specifically looking at the whole range of potential savings that can be delivered and, indeed, cost to business, looking at the whole supply chain, including legislation and barriers that might be presented by various pieces of legislation and regulation. Similar, I might say, to what has been going on with the coalition Government in the U.K. where they have looked specifically at small businesses and ways in which regulation, particularly areas around employment and health and safety in certain circumstances, impact on one man bands or 2-man bands, very small businesses. They looked at ways in which that can be mitigated so that those particular areas can grow into the future and develop greater employment opportunities. I think the answer to the Deputy 's question is quite simply when we have the result of the Cost of Doing Business Review that will identify the areas where most likely. But if he wants an example specifically around employment law I would identify the unfair dismissal 26-week period in Jersey. In Guernsey it is a year. In the U.K. it has been moved to 2 years. It provides an unlevel playing field and I think that is an area that we need to be perhaps considering but we will see if that is identified in the review when it comes forward.

2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Does the candidate acknowledge that in Jersey, like elsewhere in the world, the gap between the poorest in society and the wealthiest is growing and if he does, how does economic growth under the current model benefit those at the bottom rather than those at the top?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I do agree with that. It is a challenge but of course by growing the economy you create job opportunities and it puts more money into the economy, and that basically is supportive of all people within the Island community. I think that is a clear indicator.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

I will ask a supplementary. One cannot have it both ways. If the gap is increasing between the 2, putting more money in the pot only means that more money would be diverted to the top and not the bottom. How do we reverse that trend and what will the Minister do?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

The other area of course which is important is improving skills. The skills agenda is absolutely critical to ensure that people have an opportunity to improve their opportunity for getting jobs that pay larger sums of money but a successful economy again, as I have already said, puts more money ultimately into the economy and provides a better policy of living for all, and a higher standard of public services.

4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

The candidate mentioned his successes as Minister for Economic Development; does he consider the delay in bringing forward the review of the Licensing Law to be one of those successes? While we are on the subject of the Licensing Law, as Minister for Treasury and Resources would the Minister be interested in seeing a transfer of the administration of alcohol licences from Treasury to the Parishes, in the sense that I am sure he wishes to see a strengthening of the role of the Parishes who could use the income from such licences to defray the cost of the administration?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

The Connétable is never one to miss an opportunity to drive some more revenue. As far as the Licensing Law is concerned; yes, that is indeed something that is not a success as far as I am concerned. But I would say in mitigation that the responsibility has not fallen purely to Economic Development, and there has been a cross-departmental working group trying to drive a development of a new Licensing Law. It is critically important. Although Economic Development had responsibility for that law it is indeed Home Affairs and Health that have been instrumental and vitally important to feeding into that process. Now, I am pleased to say, that progress has been made and a draft law is at a position where it is ready to be lodged very soon. I think that is a positive move at last, Connétable . As far as the transfer from Treasury, although I accept his point, I think at this stage there would need to be a lot more work done if we were to move to that. I do support the principle of what Senator Ozouf has said a about fairer deal for St. Helier and I think as part of that we can consider very important issues around licensing and fees, as the Connétable mentioned.

5. The Connétable of St. Helier :

If I could just press the candidate please on the matter of strengthening the role of the Parishes. Is it not the case that in comparative jurisdictions this kind of function would not be handled by central Government, by local government, and is this not a perfect example of it, and will he agree to look into the possibility of delegating licensing administration to the Parishes?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think it is very reasonable to look into the matter. However, we are not very similar to many other jurisdictions so we have to look at it for a Jersey solution, but I am more than happy to look into it. I think that is a sensible route.

6. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier :

In his speech the Minister spoke about the possibility of a tax amnesty. Would he be able to elaborate on how this would work please?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

We have seen in other jurisdictions Guernsey and the U.K. where tax amnesties are offered. It gives the opportunities for businesses and individuals to come forward and clean up their tax affairs, and it has generated revenue. It is a revenue-raising opportunity and an opportunity to clean the slate as far as those involved are concerned. It is something I think should certainly  be considered.

7. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

Would the candidate agree to an independent forensic account of public finances before work on M.T.F.P. (Medium-Term Financial Plan) begins?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I see no reason why that option should not be looked at.

8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Would the candidate explain to Members what academic and professional qualifications he has and explain their relevance to the Treasury and Resources role and what particular analytical and questioning skills he has?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

If the Deputy is asking do I have accountancy qualifications then the answer is no, I do not. I have however been a politician for 9 years. I have been the Minister for Economic Development for a 6- year period. I stand on my record as far as the management and leadership of that particular department is concerned. I would also point out that as far as the history is concerned we can look at great former Ministers for Treasury and Resources who I would dearly wish to aspire to be anything like, such as the former Senator Cyril Le Marquand, Senator Ralph Vibert , Senator Pierre Horsfall, none of whom had qualifications with regard to accountancy, and indeed we can look further afield to the likes of George Osborne in the U.K. and Michel Sapin in France, although aligning to the French, looking at the fiscal position there, that is probably not quite so good. [Laughter] I would stand nevertheless on my record at Economic Development and, as I previously said, the role of Minister for Treasury and Resources is more aligned to economics than it would be necessarily to forensic accounting.

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Supplementary. The candidate did not explain if he had any academic qualifications or any professional qualifications. I also asked about analytical skills. For example, the Can-Be-Done Productions, for example. What analytical, investigatory and questioning skills, when he was Minister for Economic Development, did he apply to that?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Ministers are not supposed to have necessarily analytical skills along the lines that the Deputy is referring to. Clearly in the Treasury Department, or any Ministerial department, a Minister relies upon the advice of officers who are qualified, whether they be accountants or have analytical skills. A Minister's role is quite simply to be having the right ability to put together policies and strategies and assess the information that is brought forward by those that are employed by the department or, for that matter, externally. That is why professionals are brought in either within the department or from an external perspective to provide that advice that Ministers then have to deal with.

[10:00]

10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

In most countries the relationship between a Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Prime Minister or Chief Minister is regarded as fundamental. If it does not work then Government does not work. Can the candidate see himself develop that special relationship with the Chief Minister?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I would hope that I already have a special relationship with the Chief Minister on the basis that he has nominated me for this particular role. But clearly we have to continue to build relationships at all levels. I also wish to build much closer relationships with Members within this Assembly. If I am successful as Minister for Treasury and Resources, because it involves a solution over the next 3½ years, which are going to be challenging, which will need every single Member of this Assembly to be part of a team. But, yes, the Chief Minister and I, I am sure, will continue to build on our very good working relationship already.

11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

The candidate spoke of the challenging situation he faces and he also said that raising taxes should always be a last option, so the necessary implication there is that if the savings he intends to find cannot be found then there will have to be cuts to public services. Can I ask him: which service is top of his list to cut if he cannot find the money he needs to and if it does come to tax rises, which tax is top of his list to rise, if necessary?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I gave in my opening remarks a comment about tax. Yes, and that is absolutely right. I think any Government should be looking at tax raising options as the last option. Clearly it is damaging to the economy. It is not good for Islanders in a community to have more money taken out of their pocket. Consequently we have to make certain, first of all, that machinery of government is operating as efficiently as it possibly can. The reform programme, which has got a good foundation now, is beginning to deliver real benefit and real savings. We have got to roll that out much further and much faster. We can see more of those savings being delivered in different departments. Health and Social Security, in particular, have streamlined a number through the trial of areas and saved money and reduced cost. That exactly is what we should be seeking to do. It is only after one has been through that process, and also prioritising which services governments should be delivering. There are undoubtedly some as a Government that perhaps we should not be delivering, and that process is a process that we have to go through in order to arrive at the position of whether indeed in the long term there needs to be some adjustment to the tax system in terms of raising taxes.

12. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Supplementary. I do not feel as if the Minister answered my question. It was quite specific. He said that it is not good for people to have less money in their pocket, and that is undoubtedly true. But it is also not good for vulnerable Islanders to have to suffer cuts to the public services that they rely on. So could we be quite specific? If he cannot find the money he needs to which public service is top of the list to be cut? Is it grants to university fees for students wanting to aspire to higher education? Is it the subsidy to G.P. (General Practitioner) visits? What is it? What is the top of the list to be cut, if need be?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

It certainly would not be around education because, as I said also in my opening remarks, education and health are clearly a priority. There needs to be a priority. In the past the way that we have operated, particularly for example through the comprehensive spending review, was all departments were asked to make a cut across the piece. I do not think that is an efficient way forward. I think what we need to do is look at prioritising services across the whole of Government. Health and Education are clearly important. That does not mean that Health, for that matter, cannot be more efficient. They are doing it through the Lean programme, as I have already mentioned. But they also need to make certain that there is more investment and the right investment in key services. As far as giving a list to the Deputy , I am not going to stand here and give him a list. That is a process you have to go through and that is part of the reform programme.

13. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier :

The Property Tax Green Paper had pages ripped out of it during the last election theatrically by his predecessor. Would the candidate plan on stapling any of those pages back in? [Approbation]

Senator A.J.H. Maclean: No, I would not.

14. Deputy R. Labey :

Supplementary. Could he perhaps expand on his views on the property tax? Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think it was well known, and I made it clear at the hustings, that I was not a supporter of the timing of the property tax being brought forward. My view now is it is in the public domain. It is going through its process, we will review it when it comes back and make some decisions, but I think my points about tax have been fairly clear, and it applies to property tax as well. That has to be a last option. There is a lot of work to be done as far as reform is concerned, efficiencies through the public sector and prioritising the types of services that we want to deliver. That comes first before we get anywhere near considering possible tax changes.

15. Senator P.F. Routier:

Would the candidate comment on his commitment to providing sufficient funds for the growing social services needs within our Island, particularly people with disabilities and people with mental health problems?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Clearly this is an area that appears under-funded and I have already said that a priority, as far as I am concerned, is Education and Health; Health and Social Services for the avoidance of any doubt. We need to find the most appropriate solutions that are affordable but that deliver in an area that is clearly under-funded and under-resourced at the moment.

16. The Connétable of St. Martin :

Could the candidate tell the Assembly if he believes in reality whether anything can be done about non-local non-finance companies not paying tax on the Island?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think it has been problematic for some time. I would simply say that, of course, it is the shareholders that are the issue with regard to these particular businesses, and I think we need to continue to look at options that might be able to deliver some greater equity in this particular area. At the moment it is not particularly good. However many of these businesses do indeed employ people who pay tax and so there are contributions into the local economy that cannot be underestimated.

17. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

In a previous answer the Minister referred to not wishing to outline where he might make cuts but he did allude to that he believed that there were services being provided currently by Government that maybe should not be. He has obviously given this some consideration. Could he please enlighten Members as to what services he believes are being provided at the moment by departments that maybe should not be?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think this issue about cuts is something that gets misunderstood on many occasions. I gave again in my opening remarks an example of the R.N.L.I. That was a service that we could not afford within budget to manage at the time so we looked for a new solution. We appointed a new service provider in terms of the R.N.L.I. We cut the cost of the service but improved the quality of the actual outcome, plus 90 per cent of the lifeguards are now local people whereas before 100 per cent were imported. That is an example where you drive efficiencies not necessarily cuts. There is a difference between the 2. All I was making the point about was that we need to prioritise and

prioritise from the top. There are clear priorities, Health and Education being 2 areas specifically that need to be prioritised. There will be things further down. I do not know what they are. Maybe non-essential services. It will undoubtedly be non-essential administrative type functions that could be looked at or managed in a different way either within Government or outside of Government. But I cannot give specifics at this stage because I do not know. That is part of the States Assembly and all Members working as a team to understand the challenges and solution.

18. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Which one of the 3 questions I have got? What part does privatisation or outsourcing play in his version of cutting down costs in the delivery of public services?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Privatisation does not particularly feature, as far as I am concerned, and if the Deputy is referring in particular to the proposed incorporation of the ports, it is incorporation not privatisation. There is a clear distinction although that gets lost by some people. There may be opportunities to outsource some services. In fact at Economic Development we have done exactly that. I have mentioned Jersey Enterprise that we used to have in-house and we had Jersey Business Venture that we grant- funded. We brought those 2 together, outsourced the service with a professional group of people providing support to small and medium-sized businesses. I think that is a good example of an outsourced service that created job opportunities.

19. Deputy G.P. Southern :

If he does have to resort to outsourcing services will he do so in full negotiation and consultation with the employees concerned?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Of course. Absolutely.

20. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

We are hearing again that he is a high-spend low-tax Minister, which is varied from the old conservative ranks. What I would ask him: how is he going to achieve keeping Health, Education and Social Security budgets without raising taxes and will he commit to not having across the board cuts in those 3 areas like his previous Minister did? Millions of pounds asked to be saved. How is he going to achieve this?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

That is exactly what I undertook a moment ago, when I talked about Health and Education being a priority. I made the point that both those departments, Health in particular can ..

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Senator, I have to cut you off at the knees, to quote a former Connétable of St. John , and I will now ask you to retire and the Chief Usher will bring back Deputy Le Fondré. I need to ask the Greffier which cellar .. [Laughter] [Approbation]  Very well, Deputy Le Fondré, when you are ready and gathered your papers you can start and have 10 minutes, and there will be a bell after 9 minutes.

2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

It is the first time I have ever been welcomed and people have been looking forward to a speech of mine. Technical competence, teamwork, transparency: a fresh approach from a professional who can hit the ground running. That is what I offer Members as a Minister for Treasury and Resources. The Minister needs to be numerate, have good analytical skills, have focus and, given the technical nature of parts of Treasury, have experience of taxation and of finance. As a chartered accountant worryingly of some over 20 years' experience in the finance industry, both here and internationally, and with 5 years in Treasury, I am the candidate with the most experience in these areas. I believe my blend of analysis, careful, calm and reasoned decision making, combined with totally open approach is essential for the Island's next Minister for Treasury and Resources.

[10:15]

With me States Members would have a Minister who knows the ropes. The finance industry would have confidence that the person they are dealing with understands both their language and their business. Before I continue I think it is appropriate to address myself through the Chair directly to Senator Ozouf . Members will be aware that he and I have had disagreements over certain matters. I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge all of his hard work in what has been a very difficult period to be Minister for Treasury and Resources. I do recognise his commitment to Jersey. But for the record, we have agreed to leave past history where it belongs and while accepting we have a different perspective on certain matters, looking forward all of us in this Assembly will have to work together to meet the challenges ahead. [Approbation] I started my speech by focusing on technical competence; why is that so important? Fundamentally it is about tackling the deficit and growing the economy. Good news is out there. There are green shoots. However, the latest economic advice is that recovery is taking far longer than expected and Jersey remains in a financially delicate position. Pressure on the public finances will continue for the foreseeable future. We must have a serious debate over what we spend and what we tax and it has to be done properly. What are the other issues? Defining long-term tax policy, assessing the outcome of the property tax review, and we must ensure throughout that we both respect and protect the independence of the Parish rating systems. No question. We have an Interim Treasurer and we have got a retiring Comptroller of Taxes, and as an external review action in the profession it might be an opportune time to look at the structure of the Tax Department. The T.T.P. (Tax Transformation Programme) has slowed, partially due to long-term care. Not only is that all about modernisation, it is also about dealing with the demands of F.A.T.C.A. (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act), U.K. and U.S. (United States) and the C.R.S. (common reporting standard) of which we are early adopters, extending filing online, possible self-assessment, the debate on independent taxation, the margin rate, non-local non-finance companies, even the impact of F.O.I. (Freedom of Information) are all challenges facing this department. Externally pressures or possibly even opportunities, depending on your viewpoint, include B.E.P.S. (Base Erosion and Project Shifting), changes in the Swiss Forfait system, the impending visit of Moneyval and also the changes in the Gibraltar tax regime. I apologise if I might be using too much technical jargon but the point is that the Minister will need to have a clear understanding of these issues; any number of which have the potential to impact upon this Island, its economy and our base tax revenues, including Zero/Ten. It requires professional experience allied to proven financial acumen to know when to challenge the tough and searching questions. So how do I match up to the requirements of the job? I am a chartered accountant. I have been professionally qualified since 1993. I trained and qualified with one of the biggest accountancy firms in the world, including some time in a competitor jurisdiction internationally. In the document I sent to Members yesterday I set out examples of how I can resolve complex situations and then work collectively to deliver solutions, and that is all about teamwork. To establish, for example, the siting of the new dairy and facilities for Acorn Industries I led a team through 3 years of very careful negotiations between groups with conflicting views. That achievement helped secure the viability of the dairy and our precious dairy industry. I do not entertain short-term political fixes. I can also propose creative, simple solutions. The so-called Le Fondré proposals, which I always found embarrassing

as a label, were approved by this Assembly back in 2008 as an alternative to exempting food from G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax). I came up with a simpler solution that used our existing systems to distribute monies and target them appropriately rather than clock-up greater bureaucratic costs by exempting food from G.S.T. That avoided spending between £200,000 to £300,000 per year. But equally importantly it targeted help to those who most needed it. During my time at J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings) we achieved many successes, most of which passed under the radar. We delivered £400,000 of annual savings in the retendering of maintenance contracts and £11 million to £12 million on property disposals; a figure which at the time was bang on target. I represented the Island and this Assembly on the international stage at both the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly and also at the Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie. These are both prime opportunities to promote Jersey to national politicians from a number of different jurisdictions. I am delighted we have secured the regional conference of the A.P.F. (Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie) to take place next year. On a personal level I have redeveloped the El Tico. As Honorary Secretary of Le Vaux Housing Trust for 18 years I have helped deliver many projects and we have just announced the next step in the £25 million to £30 million redevelopment of Troy Court. Returning to my very first days in Treasury I was involved in the implementation of Zero/Ten, 20 Means 20, G.S.T., incorporation of Jersey Post, creation of the Stabilisation Fund, the Fiscal Policy Panel and the Common Investment Fund, as well as various budgetary measures, including the first increase in child allowance for quite some time. So I do have the foundation and the knowledge there and I do know the roots of a lot of the base of our present tax structure. I know many of the teams in Treasury and I still have a good and trusting relationship with them. If you chose me for Treasury today there will be little lead-in time. I can hit the ground running and that is vital considering the challenges we face. Successful teamwork requires both trust and transparency. We need to generate consensus, not risk further division, and that starts with this Assembly. The Code of Conduct requires Ministers to be as open as possible. I undertake throughout my tenure to hold regular one-to-one and small group surgeries in order to improve the information flow to States Members. Members must understand more about the income we receive and the money we spend. Transparency is not just lip service. In my profession it is actively encouraged. It is all about having a questioning mind about ethics, governance and having an independent approach. It is what we in the profession call professional scepticism. It is about giving more quality information to stakeholders, i.e. us, States Members in this instance, to allow them to make more informed decisions. That means more certainty and fewer surprises. Not only is it incumbent upon us but it is what the public expect: teamwork, trust and transparency demand far, far more and I undertake to address that, if elected. If appointed, within the first 100 days taking office I will work with the Chief Minister to produce a very clear statement of the present and future financial position of this Island for Members. Sir, as you reminded us on Monday, we are an Assembly of independent Members and that is one of our strengths. On at least 2 occasions Members have clearly stated they wish to keep the right to appoint Ministers themselves. The Dean in his sermon made the point about putting the right person into the right job. That is what today is about. My professional background along with my years in Treasury and J.P.H., my time in the Chief Minister's Department and T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services), my time on Scrutiny

and on P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) in my view makes me the right person for this role. Even under extreme pressure my approach is one of careful, calm and reasoned deliberation with independent thinking, leading to a clear decision. I have been asked why I want to take on this role and the answer is simple. I am passionate about Jersey. I want to be constructive in helping our Island community through the financial challenges ahead. I want to do this not because it is going to be easy but because it is going to be hard, and that does play to my skillset. But that has to apply to every Member in this Assembly, each and every one of us. Grappling with the deficit in States finances will be hard and hard for all of us. Our Minister for Treasury and Resources must be someone who will be able to carry the States with them and can demonstrate the ability to build consensus, irrespective of political viewpoints, someone with common sense and financial sense, a safe, prudent pair of hands with a strong financial background. I hope I have demonstrated I have the right blend of technical competence, teamwork and transparency, and for all those reasons I would like to end by asking Members to consider supporting me with their vote. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

We now have up to 20 minutes for questions. Deputy Kevin Lewis .

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

If successful what does the candidate see as his major challenges and objectives at Treasury? Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think we need to split that between the internal challenges and the external challenges. Externally, there are a lot of pressures. Even in the headlines today Luxembourg and its tax situation is under pressure, so there is always going to be continuing pressure on the offshore finance centres. Gibraltar has got another investigation underway because it has just changed its Zero/Ten policy. All of those things impact down to our base tax structure, put pressure on it and that has an impact on Treasury. Internally we have still only got, I believe, an Interim Treasurer. We have the Comptroller of Taxes is retiring. That is, I think, 39 years of experience going out and leaving that department. We have things like the Tax Transformation Programme needs to come through. There has been a slowdown because of long-term care. There are various internal processes going on. There are some opportunities out there. One of the big programmes that is coming through at the moment is all to do with transfer pricing and base erosion of profit shifting. The point is that is an opportunity for Jersey because it could require more business to come into Jersey because of having more substance and that can be a positive. But those are all the type of challenges, they are of a technical nature, and some of my problem is I have got the knowledge but trying to express it concisely is always a problem. They are of a technical nature. But my base and the point of view I have got 20 years of experience in the accounting world. In fact I worked out my degree was 30 years ago, which is a bit worrying. I understand the language. I am in the position to be able to communicate well to the finance industry on those types of issues but I am also in the position to have the technical discussions with the officers and then translate them so hopefully Members can understand.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The candidate almost lost my vote in the first sentence because I want to remind him that platitudes are easy, making things improve is the bigger challenge. However, given that he has still got my vote – just - does the candidate expect that the shortfall in tax revenues uncovered in the 2015 Budget will remain present in 2016 and if so, what is his Plan A' to deal with that and, secondly, what is Plan B', if that does not work?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The short answer is we have, I think, extremely challenging times ahead. So, yes, I do expect there to be some level of deficit going forward. The problem we have is that we do not know the size of the deficit and we do not also know whether it is structural or temporary. As Members may have picked up, I have given an undertaking that within 100 days, if you do appoint me to post, I will issue a very clear statement, working with the Chief Minister as to where we are. That is also about communication and the transparency and the teamwork. To go to a second part of that one, how do we try and tackle the problem? We can all talk about public sector reform and e-Government and Lean and all that sort of stuff. The issue around there is we are going to need to do all of that. I want to give a flavour of thought processes. It is a long answer because it is a long question.

The Bailiff :

Well, not too long please, Deputy , because Members wish to ask questions. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Not too long, 3 seconds. Three areas that I would like to look at. One is looking at the corporate structure and the Zero/Ten rate from the point of view, is there scope to get more revenue out of that area? Within the profession of the majority of people I speak to there is a view that there is some scope. Number 2, if we look at things like the Social Security Department and Treasury, there are efficiencies and synergies between the operational levels of those 2 departments. I think we should be looking at those. I do not want to get into involvement on policy, benefits, something along those lines, but you do have, for example, contribution collection and you have tax collection. In other parts of the world they do look at their department. We should at least have that discussion. Number 3, Treasury looks after 3 property sections. It has Property Holdings, it has S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) and it has Andium now. There are synergies and overlaps between all of their operations. Number 4, and finally, one of my passions for example is about the office modernisation strategy. That could potentially save us £10 million a year and it has also got the advantage possibly of achieving urban regeneration in St. Helier. That gives a flavour because none of those are about front line services. That is my focus. If it is worse then I think everything is in. The only way you can square things is grow the economy, cut the expenditure and for me, the last resort, but it may well be something we have to be honest about, there may well be tax rises coming.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

May I be specific? The candidate has suggested that there was something he could do about the Zero/Ten structure. Is he prepared to say what scope he has discovered there because it has taken the previous Minister for Treasury and Resources 3 years to come up with nothing?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The problem with Zero/Ten is that things keep moving at the moment. As I said, I made reference to Gibraltar. They have changed their system and they are under investigation by the E.U. (European Union). The issue there is that if the E.U. considered that as compliant then that gives us scope for more flexibility but we do not know the situation.

[10:30]

Even Guernsey slightly expanded its regime recently. I think it is on the peripheral. There is a view within the industry which has changed in the last 5 years that there is scope to tackle better the issues around U.K. companies operating over here because the regime has changed. They used to pay tax in the U.K. and therefore economically it was always an argument that they pay tax in the U.K. and they are not paying tax here, that is fine. That has changed. They do not pay tax in the U.K. now and they do not pay tax here. The professional view, for example, is that there is scope to use those measures to challenge that from our perspective. What I would say is that there are lots of views. There are some professional views saying that you cannot touch it. At the very least - and I am not aware of this having happened, maybe it has - we need to get all those people round the table and pin this down because things are shifting. There are officer views that there may be some scope around concept pricing to get some more revenue but it is a bit patchy. We need to bring the people together. That is about the team-working exercise. That is what I am saying, that hopefully I believe that with my knowledge of the industry and with the people I speak to I think we have to try a different approach to resolve that problem. Make no mistake, we do have to resolve that problem, both from a revenue point of view - it is not going to be Paris here, there is some scope I believe - but also from the political point of view. It is not acceptable out there in the public domain that we have not been seen to address it.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I was going to ask my question on qualifications but he answered that and also my question on Zero/Ten has been answered, thank you.

4. The Deputy of St. John :

Would the candidate agree to an independent forensic account of public finances before work on the M.T.F.P. begins?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Absolutely. My view is, as an accountant, one is coming into a system where there have been some changes which we are all aware of and I believe, and in fact I have always understood it was one of the Scrutiny recommendations from their review of the 2015 Budget. So absolutely. I would really hope if I was appointed that the Deputy of St. John would be able to participate, possibly even as the Assistant Minister.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

The candidate threw us an interesting scrap of information saying there may be tax rises coming. Can he elaborate on that saying which tax rises are likely and which he prefers?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

What I caveated my response with is that we do not know the magnitude of the deficit. But if the inferred question is what is my view, for example, on G.S.T., I do not want to see a raise in G.S.T. If it helps I would absolutely no way support an increase in G.S.T. The issues there are the economic climate at the moment, I think it would damage business; and equally I think it would be unacceptable because I do not think the public perception is that they do not see we have done the public sector reform enough. I think from that point of view my history in terms of focusing on not doing increases because they are easy, I hope, will support that. My background as an accountant is that I think there are other ways within the existing tax system if we need to, but firstly let us focus on the corporate side.

6. Deputy M. Tadier :

A supplementary. If tax rises are required, which section of society is most able to pay those taxes? Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I have to say I am very much in favour of simple and broad-based and that does mean that a tax goes across everywhere and none of us like paying it. However, it has always been very clear that we make sure we protect the people who are less well-off in doing so.

7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am grateful for the candidate's remarks about letting bygones be bygones but I will please, if I may, still press him. We need, as he says, to deliver economic growth. We need to find £50 million in healthcare costs for the next 5 years. That requires certainty on tax. Does the candidate really believe that I can be successful in bringing in economic growth to Jersey from Financial Services when effectively he has made a statement that we no longer have certainty on Zero/Ten?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I did not say we did not have certainty on Zero/Ten. I said the world on Zero/Ten is changing and that we do not necessarily know what the position is going to be over the next few years. But as that world changes we have to consider whether there is an opportunity to increase our scope for Zero/Ten to bring in greater revenue. One always has to make sure that the message we send out to the world is that we are a stable, secure and sound location and jurisdiction, which I fundamentally believe we are. I have worked in the finance industry for over 20 years and certainly the message I want to see is that I am proud of Jersey. I am very supportive of the finance industry and I believe we have a good reputation.

8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Can I follow up that? He did not nail it. Zero/Ten in Guernsey has been extended to our scope. He must be aware of that. The Gibraltar issue is an entirely different matter. What is the scope for increasing Zero/Ten revenue, which he is going to say that is not going to destabilise getting the economic growth into Jersey? He has not explained it.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Sorry, I thought I had covered that in one of the other answers. My understanding, for example, is that U.K. branches over here do not pay tax in the U.K. Professionals I speak to - senior professionals in the tax world - are of the view that we can use tax measures that the U.K. use themselves, apply it to Jersey, to get some of that income. I have also made it very clear that that is a majority view, it is not a universal view. What I have said is that one needs to look at it and have that discussion because if a professional who has been in the industry for 40 years and is at the senior level says to me: "I believe that it is possible" I think we should look at it. That is all I am saying. Bear in mind that if we are talking about the non-local non-finance companies then we are not talking about the finance industry, we are talking-up the margins. It is not going to destabilise. The people we are talking about have been embedded in the finance industry for a long, long time. They are some of the spokesmen of the industry and they are saying that they believe there is scope to do some changes. They do have to say you have to do it carefully, you have to at the very least look at it. That is not changing the base of zero or the base of 10. It is saying: "Can you extend?" If you extend the number of companies that are charged at zero and you then extend the companies that you can tax at 10 per cent. We have already done it, by the way, in terms of we redefined companies like oil companies as utility companies, as an example. We have changed things in the past and the world did not end. It was the right thing to do. In fact I think Senator Ozouf did that. It is that type of approach that is using the industry expertise that we have available ..

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I am sorry, I think I am going to have to ask you to be a little bit more concise so that all Members can ask their questions. Deputy Andrew Lewis .

9. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

Would the Deputy be prepared to work collaboratively with other competing jurisdictions when under attack from the likes of the E.U. and the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development)?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The short answer is, absolutely. The longer answer is that we obviously already do because we obviously work within the Crown Dependencies. Is there scope to widen it? In certain cases I believe there is.

10. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter :

Could the candidate explain how he would organise his time and other commitments in order to focus on this very challenging role?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I was an Assistant Minister in Treasury for 5 years and so I am fully aware of the work that is involved and it is perfectly manageable. I am not quite too sure .. it is a responsible job but obviously I have the background and the knowledge as an accountant of, as I said, 20-plus years that gives the deeper understanding to enable me to do it properly.

11. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

In a previous answer the candidate referred to his preference for G.S.T. being simple and broad- based. Can we take it from that comment that if G.S.T. was to rise that he would support G.S.T. on food being increased?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

My fundamental principle on G.S.T. and food exemptions has always been to try and avoid them if possible, and I know the Deputy disagrees with me on that front. The principle we have always espoused is to try and use our existing systems to protect those who get hit worst by any tax increases. The measures I have promoted and we have put in place, which was basically increasing tax exemptions, increasing the G.S.T. bonus and increasing income support was specifically designed to protect those people who are least able to pay and to afford. What turned out is that the measures basically I recommended and were adopted have proved that we can put more money into those people's purses rather than the benefit they would receive from exempting food. So that principle holds and that principle holds at whatever point the rate starts at. I hope that answers the question.

12. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Supplementary. Does the candidate not accept that generally speaking it is those at the least wealthy end and those most wealthy who are looked after and continuously it seems to me that it is middle-Jersey being squeezed and squeezed and facing [Approbation] any potential increases? That is why I am so against increases in G.S.T. on food because it affects everybody across the board.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As a principle I agree entirely with the fact that I think middle-Jersey is struggling and that every time we put taxes up from this Assembly they are the ones who pick up the tab. The difficulty I have is that in terms of exempting food, I do not think they will see the benefits that the Deputy thinks it will achieve. One can tweak things by tweaking the exemption levels that does assist middle-Jersey, and those benefits go all the way up. You can be earning £80,000 or £90,000 and still be on the marginal rate so you do capture people defined as middle-Jersey by the proposals we put through. It does require some understanding from a technical point of view and again that is what my background is.

13. Senator P.F. Routier:

Can the candidate explain his commitment to providing funds for the growing needs of social services, specifically people with disabilities and the Children's Service?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Sorry, can he repeat the question. There was some muttering. Senator P.F. Routier:

Sorry, could the candidate explain his commitment to ensuring that sufficient funds are given to Social Services; that is the shortened version?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I  am sure when  we  produce  the Medium Term  Financial  Plan all the  priorities that will  be established will be in there. I am sure we will all be supportive of that level of priority.

14. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The outgoing Minister in his role as Minister for Treasury and Resources visited some countries with some of the worst human rights records on the planet, including Saudi Arabia, the country with the second-worst human rights record on the planet; only North Korea being worse. If elected what would the candidate's attitudes to visiting these appalling countries be?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As a precept, the Minister for Treasury and Resources going forward for the next 3 years will have to be a lot more focused on what I will call the financial role of Treasury. The marketing role is going to be, and I think ably, in the hands of Senator Ozouf and the new Minister for Economic Development. To be honest, I do not want to blur those roles. I want to be very clear and very focused on the roles of the 2 Ministers and make sure we do not overlap.

15. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

Could the candidate indicate his support or not for overseas aid contributions from Jersey and whether he sees there is a need for change?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

In the ideal world I would like to .. The Bailiff :

He will never know, I am afraid, Deputy . [Laughter] I shall ask for Senator Maclean to be brought back and then we will move to the vote.

[10:45]

We will move to the vote. This will be an electronic vote as there are only 2 candidates. If you wish to vote for Senator Maclean you vote pour, that is P. If you wish to vote for Deputy Le Fondré you vote contre.  If you wish to abstain you abstain. So to remind you: pour Senator Maclean, contre Deputy Le Fondré, or abstain. The Greffier will open the voting.