States Meeting Transcript - 3rd November 2015

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 3rd NOVEMBER 2015

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................6

1. Message received from Her Majesty the Queen in response to congratulations from the Island on becoming the longest serving monarch....................................6

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

2. Written Questions........................................................................6

1. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE VALUATION OF THE JERSEY INTERNATIONAL FINANCE CENTRE:..............................................6
2. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING DISCUSSIONS WITH THE U.K. GOVERNMENT IN RESPECT OF JERSEY'S ABILITY TO ACCEPT REFUGEE FAMILIES:........................................7
3. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING JERSEY'S LOW INFLATION RATE:...............7
4. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING THE USE OF POPULATION PROJECTIONS TO DETERMINE THE CAPACITY OF LES QUENNEVAIS SCHOOL:..............8
5. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ALCOHOL ADVERTISING AND PRODUCT PLACEMENT: ........................9
6. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY SCRUTINY PANEL REGARDING THE ALCOHOL STRATEGY:...........................................................................10
7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF EGOVERNMENT POLICIES: ........10
8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SERVICE DELIVERY AND OUTSOURCING: ......................................................................11
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION OF NURSING STAFF: ................................................................12
10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE LOSS OF INCOME FOR THOSE RECEIVING LONG TERM INCAPACITY ALLOWANCE:........................................13
11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BENEFIT CUTS:..........................................14

12. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING ASSESSMENTS FOR THE RECEIPT OF LONG TERM INCAPACITY ALLOWANCE: ........................................................15
13. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE HISTORIC ABUSE COMPENSATION SCHEME: ..............................18
14. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES REGARDING THE LOI (1804) AU SUJET DES ASSEMBLÉES PAROISSIALES:......................................................19
15. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL

REGARDING TELECOMMUNICATIONS LEGISLATION:.........................20

3. Oral Questions...........................................................................20

1. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s regarding welfare payments for vulnerable members of the community:................20 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s) .................20

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................20
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................21
3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................21
4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................21
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................21
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................22
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................22
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22
9. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:.......................................................22

2. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the impact of Income Support cuts upon the mental health of vulnerable residents:...................23 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................23

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................24

4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:.................................................................24
5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................25
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................25
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................25
8. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................25
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25

3. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding requirements for drivers to report accidents involving animals to the police: ..................................................................................26 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):......26

1. Deputy P.D. McLinton: ................................................................26
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27
4. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary:........................................................28
5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................28
6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................28
7. Deputy P.D. McLinton: ................................................................28

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for Social Security regarding the information provided to benefits recipients by the Social Security Department: .....................29 Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................29

1. Deputy S.W. Mézec :....................................................................29
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................30
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................31
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................31
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................31

5. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding projected profits in respect of the Jersey International Finance Centre: .................32 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................32

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................32
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................33
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................33
4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................34
5. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement:......................................................34
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................35
7. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John : ....................................................35
8. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................36
9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................36

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding mobile roaming charges:................................................................37 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur)..........37

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................38
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................38
3. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................39
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................39
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................40
6. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:..................................................40
7. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................41
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................42

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Social Security.............42

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................42 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
   2. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen:........................................................43

4.2.1 The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................44

3. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................44
4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:.................................................................44

4.4.1 Senator Z.A. Cameron:.................................................................45

5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................45

4.5.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................46

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................46

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - the Chief Minister............................46

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................46 Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):..................................46
2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................47
3. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................47

5.3.1 The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................47

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................48
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................48
7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................48

5.7.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................49

8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................49
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49

5.9.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................50

10. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50
11. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................50

PERSONAL STATEMENTS....................................................................50

6. Personal Statement by Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John regarding resignation as Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources........................................51

6.1 Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John:........................................................51

6.1.1 Senator A.J.H. Maclean:................................................................51

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................51

7. Ratification of the Agreement between the Government of Jersey and the Government of the Republic of Korea on the exchange of information relating to tax matters (P.93/2015) ......................................................................51

7.1 Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):.........................52

8. Draft Taxation (Exchange of Information with Third Countries) (Amendment No. 13) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.108/2015)..................................................52

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):.........................52
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................53

9. Ratification of the Agreement between the Government of Jersey and the Government of the Republic of Seychelles for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income (P.95/2015)..........53

9.1 Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):.........................53

10. Draft Taxation (Double Taxation) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.109/2015)..............................................................................54

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):.........................54
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................54

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................54
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................54

11. Draft Honorary Police (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.110/2015) ..55

11.1 The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s):..................55

1. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : ........................................55
2. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................58
3. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................59
4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..............................................................59
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................59
6. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................60
7. Deputy P.D. McLinton:..............................................................61

8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................61
9. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:.................................................61
10. Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour:................................62
11. Deputy M. Tadier :................................................................62
12. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:.........................63
13. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin:..................................................64
14. Deputy K.C. Lewis : ..............................................................64
15. Deputy G.P. Southern : ............................................................64
16. The Connétable of St. Clement:...................................................64

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................67

12. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):....67

1. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade:.....................................................67

1. The Connétable of St. Clement:......................................................68
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................68
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................68
4. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................68
5. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................69
6. Deputy M.J. Norton: ................................................................69

2. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................70

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................71

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. Message received from Her Majesty the Queen in response to congratulations from the Island on becoming the longest serving monarch

The Bailiff :

Members will remember that I read to the Assembly a copy of my letter to Her Majesty the Queen to congratulate her on becoming the longest reigning monarch. I have had a letter back that I will just read: "Dear Bailiff . The Queen has asked me to thank you for your kind letter sent on behalf of the Lieutenant Governor of the States and people of Jersey on the occasion of Her Majesty becoming the longest reigning monarch of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth Realms on 9th September. The Queen has been greatly touched by all the messages of support she has received and appreciates your thoughtfulness in writing, as you did. This message comes to you with Her Majesty's very best wishes. Yours sincerely." And it is signed by the assistant private secretary to the Queen. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

2. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE VALUATION OF THE JERSEY INTERNATIONAL FINANCE CENTRE:

Question

The Minister recently released some limited information relating to the DTZ valuation on what would be the completed Jersey International Finance Centre development at some time in the future. Can the Minister advise:

1. what the cost of the valuation was;
2. whether the Treasury statement that The latest DTZ valuation was undertaken in accordance with the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors' regulations and attributes an estimated aggregate value of £332 million tothe completed office development' means that it was carried out as a redbook valuation in accordance with standard RICS standards;
3. what average rent figure was used and what yield percentage was used to achieve a valuation of £332,000,000 valuation on the completed development of 470,000 square feet; and
4. whether the full report will be published immediately to ensure transparency?

Answer

1. The valuation fee was £10,000.
2. The valuer confirms that the valuation was prepared in accordance with the appropriate sections of the RICS Professional Standards, RICS Global Valuation Practice Statements, RICS Global Valuation Practice Guidance – Applications and United Kingdom Valuation Standards contained within the RICS Valuation – Professional Standards 2014 (the "Red Book"). The valuation is prepared on the basis of Special Assumptions set out in the valuation report.

3. The rent figures and yield percentages areassumptions that the valuer has utilised in reaching the valuation. This data is regarded as commercially sensitive and would not ordinarily be publicly released.
4. The report will be provided to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel under the usual confidentiality agreement for its consideration as part of the ongoing scrutiny process. The Minister will consider whether it is in the public interest to publish the report in full more widely.

2. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OFTHE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING DISCUSSIONS WITH THE U.K. GOVERNMENT IN RESPECT OF JERSEY'S ABILITY TO ACCEPT REFUGEE FAMILIES:

Question

Could the Chief Minister update the Assembly on what progress, if any, has been made during discussions with the U.K. Government on Jersey's ability to accept refugee families? Could he further inform the Assembly when he believes those discussions will be concluded and the full details announced to the public?

Answer

Officials in the Chief Minister's Department and the Home Affairs Department are still in discussions with the UK Government, as well as Guernsey. We are not in a position to confirm when those discussions will be concluded, but we will provide an update as soon as we are able to.

3. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING JERSEY'S LOW INFLATION RATE:

Question

What plans, if any, does the Minister have to prevent Jersey's low inflation rate from turning into deflation? Answer

It is good news that RPI inflation in September was at 0.1% - its lowest level for six years. Underlying inflation, as measured by the change in RPIY, was 0% - its lowest level since this measure was introduced in 2007. RPI Low Income was also unchanged and RPI pensioners fell by 0.6% - meaning that average retail prices for pensioner households were lower than a year earlier. These developments should be welcomed as it eases pressures on the cost of living.

Annual falls in the price of fuel and light, food, clothing and motoring costs will be welcome for islanders.

• Fuel and light costs fell by 10% over the twelve months to September, driven by the fall in domestic heating oil and a fall in the cost of gas.
• Food fell by 2%, with lower prices for fresh fruit, vegetables, potatoes and some dairy products.
• Motoring costs fell by 2%, driven by falls in the price of petrol and diesel.

It is encouraging that Jersey is seeing the benefits of lower trends in global commodity prices (food and energy) and we want to ensure that inflation remains low because:

• Low inflation has meant that there has been real earnings growth in each of the last three years 2013, 2014 and 2015.
• Low inflation is good for competitiveness and is a key element of the Strategic Plan priority to optimise economic growth.

If downward pressure from global commodity prices were to result in Jersey's inflation rate turning negative, this would continue to be good news due to the impact this would have on the prices islanders pay for essential items. This in turn could mean that more money is available to spend on other goods and services, which would be further good news for some sectors of our economy.

When negative inflation is imported through lower global commodity prices, this is often known as good deflation'. If there was a sustained fall in prices caused by a fall in demand in the economy, then this could be considered bad deflation'. There are no signs that Jersey is currently at risk of the latter type of deflation

- private sector wages increased by 2.2% in the year to June 2015, employment is growing, and responses to the Business Tendency Survey do not suggest a significant number of companies operating below capacity.

The best way to mitigate any risk of deflation caused by falling demand in the future is to follow the advice of the Fiscal Policy Panel by ensuring that fiscal policy is counter-cyclical. For example, the past Fiscal Stimulus programme was designed to support projects which could inject demand into the economy in a timely manner.

4. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND  CULTURE  REGARDING  THE  USE  OF  POPULATION  PROJECTIONS  TO DETERMINE THE CAPACITY OF LES QUENNEVAIS SCHOOL:

Question

Will  the  Minister  provide  the  concrete  population  projections  for  both  the  Island  and  the  new  Les Quennevais School intake which are being used to determine the capacity of the new Les Quennevais School, including figures for the opening date and each 10 years thereafter until 2057?

Answer

As noted in my response to Deputy Tadier 's question on 20th October, the projections for pupil numbers at Les Quennevais School are based on birth numbers and the analysis of demographic trends, including net migration. This work is carried out in close consultation with the States Statistics Unit, and the figures for net migration take into account both the States' population policy and actual population numbers. The projections also take account of the number of pupils in the school system, and are updated annually to reflect changes over time.

The school population at Les Quennevais currently stands at 688 pupils, and the projections for the period up to 2029 are as follows –

2027 153 743 2028 170 762 2029 157 743

Deputy   Tadier has  asked  for  concrete'  population  projections  for  both  the  Island  and  the  new  Les Quennevais  School,  but  it  will  be  appreciated  that  it  becomes  more  difficult  to  make  more  detailed projections when looking at a longer term, as the number of variables may increase over a longer time span. Pupil projections for the period after 2029 would therefore be more provisional in nature, and would be subject to review on a continuing basis.

The planned capacity for a new secondary school at Les Quennevais is 750 pupils, with the ability to take up to 850 pupils without having to build extra accommodation. The plans for the new school will allow room for expansion beyond this figure, should this become necessary. As already noted, pupil projections are kept under continuing review, and the department would therefore be able to give at least several years notice of any such requirement. Consideration would also be given to other  options, including whether there is capacity in the other secondary schools to take additional pupils.

Deputy Tadier has also asked for population projections for each ten years after the projected opening date until 2057, and projections beyond 2029 will be to a lesser degree of accuracy for the reasons explained above. Any such projections will be subject to change over time, and will therefore need to be seen as very provisional at this stage. Assuming an opening date of 2019 for a new school, the provisional figures are as follows –

Note: The projections for the total Island population take into account both the current States' population policy and actual population numbers. The projections also assume that any increases in housing to meet the increased demand for accommodation will be spread evenly across the Island, although in the current Island Plan there is a strong emphasis on building new residential accommodation in St. Helier . If this emphasis is maintained in future Island Plans, then the total number of pupils in the Les Quennevais catchment area could be significantly less than the totals shown for the years 2039 onwards.

5. DEPUTY  M.  TADIER  OF  ST.  BRELADE  OF  THE  CHIEF  MINISTER  REGARDING ALCOHOL ADVERTISING AND PRODUCT PLACEMENT:

Does the Chief Minister have any plans to restrict the advertising and product placement of alcohol, as has been the case for tobacco, and if not, why not? Furthermore, when can members expect to see a cohesive alcohol strategy being published?

Answer

The Council of Ministers' Alcohol and Licensing Strategy was published in September 2014 (R139/2014). That strategy does not include restrictions on advertising and product placement but does include development of safe drinking messages and point of sale information.

Restrictions on alcohol advertising and product placement are difficult to achieve as Jersey has no jurisdiction over UK print and broadcast media. In addition, bill board advertising, which is commonly cited as being the most pervasive in relation to alcohol promotion, is not generally a feature of the Island.

Further consideration may be given to point of sale restrictions (for example, screening) but the benefits would need to be fully assessed in light of on-going media advertising.

6. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY SCRUTINY PANEL REGARDING THE ALCOHOL STRATEGY: Question

Does the Chairman consider that the lack of a current governmental alcohol strategy should be of concern to this Assembly and, if so will he outline the reasons why? Also, does his Panel consider that any above inflationary increases on alcohol duty should be opposed until a cohesive strategy is produced?

Answer

The Panel is aware of the Alcohol and Licensing Strategy for Jersey presented to the Assembly on 23rd September 2014 (R.139/2014) and has no immediate plans to review its implementation. It is willing to receive a submission from the Deputy if he wishes to suggest that the Panel should conduct a review into the Strategy. However it is noted that the Strategy has been developed as a joint approach between Health and Social Services and at least four other departments. The Panel looks forward to learning the results of further work on the Strategy by the Alcohol and Licensing Policy Group, including a pricing review investigating the role that pricing mechanisms could play in reducing the harmful effects of alcohol. The Panel will make enquiries concerning the progress of this work.

7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF EGOVERNMENT POLICIES:

Question

Will the Chief Minister, as Chairman of the States Employment Board (SEB), outline the options under consideration by SEB to enable the implementation of eGovernment policies and, in particular, the potential outsourcing of over 50 jobs in Information Services? Will he further clarify the statement made by the Chief Executive of the States that: "Their jobs are not formally at risk yet – we are just market testing. We are just seeing what the market can offer us"?

What impact has the response of the SEB and its officers to a leaked document had upon public sector employees across all departments and has this resulted in increased anxiety among employees? In this regard, will the Chief Minister assure members that future plans for restructuring will be subject to open and transparent consultation with States employees and their representatives at the earliest opportunity in line with good employment practice?

Answer

Information Services is important in enabling reform across the public sector through eGov and other transformational work. The department needs to re-structure to focus on reform and e-government activities and to ensure it can deliver the IT services required to meet the demands of the business through this, and further periods of change.

It is not unusual for organisations to outsource their technical infrastructure services (servers, network, data centre,  desktop,  Service  Desk  etc.),  as  the  technology  and  economies  of  scale  allow  commercial organisations to offer these services profitably.

As a result of an initial review of Information Services' core activities the technical infrastructure services have been selected for market testing. The team responsible for technical infrastructure has been informed of work underway to establish whether this approach is viable. Team members were briefed at an early stage in an open and transparent manner.

Unions have been made fully aware of this project, and will be consulted on a regular basis until the service review is completed.

At each stage team members have been informed of the reasoning and how the change may affect them. Understandably this communication may have caused concern for some. There is work underway to increase engagement during this period of change.

8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SERVICE DELIVERY AND OUTSOURCING: Question

Will the Minister list for members the current services delivered by his department to the public or other departments and indicate whether he intends to reduce, cease or outsource any of these services as part of his commitment to the delivery of the targets set by the Medium Term Financial Plan (MTFP)? Will he also inform members what reduction in staffing numbers through natural wastage/voluntary release have been achieved by the department in delivering the MTFP so far and what further reductions are being targeted?

In relation to the foregoing, will he further state whether his department has given notice that it intends to withdraw from the contract to service gardens/public space for Andium Homes, and if so why? Is it also the intention to withdraw from a similar contract with the Education Department, and will he state the reasons which underpin this decision?

Answer

The Transport and Technical Services Department is in the process of comprehensive reviews of both its Technical and Non-Technical Services that will enable them to continue to provide these essential public services to the Island and manage the finances in a sustainable manner in the long term. The majority of these reviews will be complete during 2016 and only on completion will the Department be able to say whether it intends reduce, cease or outsource any of the services it provides.

Shown below is a list of services delivered by the Transport and Technical Services and the staff savings that have been achieved by the department to date. At this time, the Department is unable to say what future manpower reductions will be made until it has completed the service reviews.

* Departmental support contains areas such as Directorates, Chief Executive, Corporate Resources and Stores, which support the entire department.

Due to the current vacancies in the Parks and Gardens Mobile Gardening Team the Department made the decision to  give notice to Andium Homes that it would be terminating the  majority of its Landscape Maintenance Works Service Level Agreement on 31st December 2015. The reason why the Department chose to terminate the Andium Homes contract was that they already have existing gardening contracts in place and would be very easily able to get alternative contractors to undertake the work for 30% - 50% less than the Parks and Gardens Mobile Gardening Team can do.

It is the Department's intention to withdraw from the Parks and Gardens Mobile Gardening Contracts, including the Education Mobile Gardening Contracts, as and when vacancies become available.

9. DEPUTY G.P.  SOUTHERN  OF ST. HELIER  OF THE MINISTER  FOR HEALTH  AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION OF NURSING STAFF:

Question

Does the Minister accept that the inability of the General Hospital to recruit and retain nursing staff revealed in the answer to question 9014, tabled on 20th October 2015, shows that his department is no longer capable of delivering a full health service which meets the reasonable needs of residents?

To what extent has the need to close beds on safety grounds due to lack of staff been brought about by the need to meet 2015 spending reductions, for example, by deferring recruitment for some posts, and if so, can the Minister assure members that he has measures in hand to ensure that staffing is brought up to full complement in 2016, and if not, why not?

In particular, what measures does the Minister have under consideration to reduce the waiting time for initial orthopaedic appointments along with the waiting time for procedures, other than to prioritise relatively minor procedures that do not require bed occupancy in order to cope, and if none, why? With medical and orthopaedic beds closed what measures does the Minister have in hand to prevent a crisis in the health service this winter?

Answer

The Minister does not accept that the current nursing staffing position means that the department is no longer  capable  of  delivering  a  full  health service  which  meets the reasonable  needs  of residents.  No operations have been cancelled due to lack of bed availability. All theatre sessions are still in operation and there have not been any changes to our admission criteria for medical patients – all patients requiring admission have been appropriately accommodated.

There has been no deferment of recruitment to clinical posts that are currently vacant. Active recruitment is continuously undertaken and a number of staff have been successfully recruited and are due to commence work. 5% of the budgeted registered nursing posts remain vacant as of October 2015 – this is the lowest figure in the last 4 years, yet the budgeted establishment is the highest in the last 4 years. There will always be turnover of staff in any organisation with the number of employees we have and the level of unfilled vacancies at 5% would not be considered an outlier in comparison with UK hospitals.

The decision to close beds rather than use off-island, costly agency nurses has been carefully considered and is an appropriate decision in the current economic climate. Should the need to increase capacity arise, these beds would be re-opened using on-island temporary staff where possible, supplemented with off-island agency staff if necessary. As set out in the answer to States Question 9014, the orthopaedic beds will be re- opened in January which is traditionally the time of year when there is a seasonal increase in admissions.

Should Jersey experience an episode of illness that would constitute a crisis', for example, a serious outbreak of winter flu or vomiting, the 6 closed beds would be re-opened. However, this alone would be insufficient to manage such a crisis and we would have to take decisions to cancel elective surgery and manage our in-patient capacity to accommodate any such influx of islanders who were unwell. This would include closing wards to admissions if the ward had an infection outbreak, stopping discharges to nursing and care homes from any ward with an outbreak, nursing infectious patients together and managing infectious patients in their homes where safe to do so. The current configuration of the hospital, with largely 6-bedded bay accommodation, reduces operational efficiency as a whole bay will close for one infected patient. In the future hospital, the single rooms for patients will assist with such management by increasing flexibility, reducing bed closures and reducing the risk of the spread of infection between patients.

Orthopaedic waiting times are constantly reviewed and changes are made to processes and systems to strive for maximum efficiency. These actions will continue as processes can always be improved. No new investment is planned for the orthopaedic service during 2016 due to the financial constraints upon all public services. However, even if funding was available, the lack of theatre capacity would prevent any significant reduction in waiting times until the new temporary theatres become operational in 2017.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE LOSS OF INCOME FOR THOSE RECEIVING LONG TERM INCAPACITY ALLOWANCE:

Question

Given that the Minister's response to written question 9012, tabled on 20th October 2015, fails to point out that, although the most common award of Long Term Incapacity Allowance (L.T.I.A.) is 20% (approximately £40 per week), this represents only 8% of claims, can the Minister provide the average loss of income for those receiving L.T.I.A.?

Can the Minister also advise whether, given that the average L.T.I.A. award of those who also need Income Support is some £5,900 annually or £110 weekly, this results in an average loss from the removal of Income Support disregard not of £2.40 but of close to £7.00 weekly?

Is the Minister's statement that the Department has not in any way decreased the income support to those with disabilities' correct given the above figures?

Answer

I have been very clear regarding the changes that have already been debated and agreed by members as part of the Social Security MTFP proposals. The Long Term Incapacity Allowance (LTIA) is a contributory benefit that compensates a working age person in respect of a loss of faculty, judged on a percentage scale. The value of LTIA has not been reduced it has increased annually. The value of this contributory benefit went up from £196.42 to £199.99 (by £3.57 per week) on 1 October 2015; and this will continue to increase over the next four years.

The most common award of LTIA is at 20% of the standard rate of benefit, or approximately £40 per week. At the end of 2014, about 511 people (13% of all claims) claimed LTIA at this level - out of the 3,958 people in total who claimed LTIA. The median average percentage rate of assessment for LTIA claims by those who also claim Income Support was 40% of the standard rate of benefit, or about £80 per week in 2014. In other words, half of those claiming LTIA and Income Support at the same time were assessed at 40% or below and the other half at 40% and above. Looking specifically at a 40% LTIA claim, if the person claims Income Support, removing the overlap will mean they receive £4.80 a week less in Income Support.

As I confirmed in my previous answer to written question 9012, and included in my propositions that were agreed by the States, the approval of my spending plans has allowed the Department to maintain the level of benefits paid to people with disabilities. The impairment component of Income Support contains three separate elements that provide additional financial support to assist with the cost of personal care, mobility, and the cost of extra visits to the GP (General Practitioner). The impairment component is available to Income Support claimants of all ages, including pensioners and children. The elements that comprise it have not been reduced. The package of changes approved by Members concerned the treatment of the overlap between Income Support  and LTIA benefit  income, and resulted  in the  removal  of an additional  6% disregard against LTIA income within the Income Support calculation. This extra allowance was not aimed at any specific need or additional cost. This has now been brought in line with the treatment of other contributory benefits, such as Short Term Incapacity Allowance, which have never received an additional income disregard. The removal of this extra disregard simplifies the calculation of Income Support and ensures that all benefits claimants are treated fairly.

11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING BENEFIT CUTS:

Question

Can the Minister advise whether attempts to cut benefits in an equitable manner by spreading the cuts over large groups to minimise individual impact' have failed because they have concentrated on the interaction between the benefits system and Income Support which only apply to a minority of recipients (1,700 out of 17,500 local pensioners and 1,500 of 4,500 who have an Long Term Incapacity Allowance claim)? Can targeting those on Income Support who are the least well-off be considered to comply with the intention to be fair'?

Will the Minister also inform members how many recipients of Long Term Incapacity Allowance are also in receipt of personal care, clinical care and mobility components and are therefore protected from the full impact of the changes as per her previous answers?

Answer

My proposals, as agreed by the States Assembly, hold the benefit budget broadly flat over the next four years at about £83 million a year. Page 97 of the Annex to the Medium Term Financial Plan includes the following graph, which shows the growth in the original budget against the impact of the benefit changes.

I reiterate that the proposals were designed to improve the overall fairness and reduce complexity in the benefit system. In particular, we were guided by three criteria: to promote financial independence, to improve targeting and to minimise impact on individuals.

Specifically, the benefit changes minimise the impact on individuals by ensuring that a significant element (57%) of the £10 million target by 2019 will be achieved by:

1. Maintaining most of the Income Support component rates at 2015 levels for two years : £4.1 million saved by 2019
2. Closing the Christmas Bonus scheme from 2016 : £1.6 million saved by 2019

As a comparison, removing the 6% disregard for LTIA and certain other contributory benefits in the Income Support system contributes £0.6 million of the £10 million savings by 2019, i.e. just 6% of the total.

As at 30 September 2015 there were 1,221 Long Term Incapacity Allowance claimants who were also part of an Income Support household.

531 of these 1,221 individuals (43%) also had an award of one or more of the impairment components of Income Support. This breaks down as follows:

• 237 (19%) had a personal care component award
• 167 (14%) had a mobility component award
• 454 (37%) had a clinical cost component award

Individuals can receive more than one type of impairment component at the same time.

As I have previously stated, the impairment components are not subject to any reduction in the package of benefit proposals. It should be noted that all Income Support households will see the majority of component levels held at the 2015 level until October 2017.

12. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING  ASSESSMENTS  FOR  THE  RECEIPT  OF  LONG  TERM  INCAPACITY ALLOWANCE:

Question

Will the Minister:

1. complete the table below showing the number of people claiming long term incapacity benefit from the department according to their assessed degree of incapacity over the time period together with the cost of the benefit;
2. advise members how the degree of incapacity is calculated and by whom;
3. advise  members  how  mental  incapacity  is  calculated,  by  whom,  and  the qualifications  of  the assessors?

Answer

Please note that the dates used in the table have been slightly amended from the original request in order to align to annual accounts.

For the years 2012 onwards this information is publically available through the departmental Annual Report. See

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyReports/2013/R.134-2013.pdf http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyReports/2014/R.123-2014.pdf http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyReports/2015/R.111-2015.PDF For 2010 and 2011 historic data has been analysed[1].

Long Term Incapacity Allowance is paid under Article 16 of the Social Security Law to people who have a loss of physical or mental faculty which is likely to be permanent. Decisions regarding the extent of a loss of faculty are made by a medical board comprising one or two qualified medical practitioners who are publically appointed by the Social Security Minister (these being registered doctors).

Details of individual appointments are provided in Ministerial decisions, available at http://www.gov.je/government/planningperformance/pages/ministerialdecisions.aspx

The law requires that the loss of faculty should be expressed as a percentage and the principles governing how incapacitation is assessed are given in the Social Security (Assessment of Long Term Incapacity) (Jersey) Order 2004. The medical board doctors receive training in how these percentages should be discerned and their decisions are guided by examples set in law. For example absolute deafness has a degree of incapacitation of 100% and loss of two fingers on one hand has a degree of incapacitation of 20%. The law allows for circumstances where the percentage degree of incapacitation can be flexed considering the individual circumstances of the case.

In the course of an assessment the medical board will consider GP reports and other medical documents, will interview and, with the claimant's permission, conduct a physical examination if appropriate.

Mental incapacity is calculated in the same way, by the same pool of medical practitioners who serve on these medical boards.

The Law provides that a medical board  may call for the opinion of an expert to assist them in their considerations where there are complex issues to be considered in making a determination.

13. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE HISTORIC ABUSE COMPENSATION SCHEME:

Question

With regard to the Historic Abuse Compensation Scheme, will the Chief Minister advise members:

1. how many claims were made;
2. how many have been settled;
3. how many remain outstanding;
4. how many claims were rejected;
5. how compensation payments were calculated and how many claims were made and settled within each category;
6. how much money has been paid out in total;
7. how much money has been paid to States lawyers to date; and
8. how much money has been paid to lawyers representing claimants to date?

Answer

The Historic Abuse Redress Scheme (the "Scheme") has been established by the Council of Ministers to enable financial compensation to be assessed and paid to the victims of historic abuse suffered when in the full-time residential care of the States from 9 May 1945 to 31 December 1994. Claims under the Scheme that contained elements  of abuse suffered in foster care were subsequently agreed by the COM to be admitted under the Scheme. Since the launch of the Jersey Care Inquiry, a number of new claims have been received. The COM has considered establishing a further compensation scheme for abuse suffered in foster care and intends to finalise its decision and treatment of the new claims once the Inquiry has issued its final report.

Responding to the questions in turn:

1. 132 individuals submitted claims to the Historical Abuse Redress Scheme.
2. To date, 116 individuals claims have been settled in their entirety
3. claims remain outstanding
4. 4 claims were rejected in their entirety and 3 were withdrawn by the claimants.
5. The Scheme Lawyers, together with representatives of the Health & Social Services Department, review and consider  each claim and then make an assessment and recommendation of financial compensation with reference to:

1. the nature, severity and frequency of abuse suffered; and
2. any physical and mental injuries and any medium or long-term effects.

With reference to the above-mentioned factors, a claim will fall into one of four "Compensation Bands" arrived at based upon specialist advice from leading UK barristers and the factors above will, taken together, also determine where within a Compensation Band a claim falls.

The table below sets out the Compensation Bands and the number of claims settled within each Band:

6. To date, total spend in respect of the Scheme is £5.11m of an approved budget of £5.8m with a remaining balance of £0.69m. Of this, £2.0m has been paid to claimants and in addition £130,000 is held on accountofthe costs of therapy for certain claimants. The original budget was fixed on the basis of 100 claims being received and did not take into account claims received for abuse suffered in foster care.
7. To date, the Scheme Lawyers and counsel have been paid £2.2m in total for the years 2011 to 2015 in advising on the setting up and administration of the Scheme and related matters.
8. To date, lawyers representing claimants have submitted invoices for over £1m and interim payments on account have been made pending taxation by the Judicial Greffier. However, 30 claimants at various stages were unrepresented and required support and assistance from the Scheme Lawyers.
9. To date, professional and hired services,including Scheme psychiatrists who compiled reports to assist in the assessment of claims, have been paid a total of £250,000.

14. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES  REGARDING  THE LOI  (1804)  AU  SUJET  DES  ASSEMBLÉES PAROISSIALES:

Question

Will the  Chairman  advise  members  whether the  Articles  of the Loi  (1804)  au  Sujet  des  Assemblées Paroissiales:

1. are still relevant in 2015 and whether consideration should be given as to whether they should or should not be repealed in part or in their entirety; and
2. whether there are any plans to amend or repeal Article 3, which allows Deputies in the States the right to attend Assemblies of the parish they represent, but not vote at them?

Answer

1. The Articles of the Loi (1804) au Sujet des Assemblées Paroissiales are still relevant as it is this law which sets out the rules for calling and conducting a Parish Assembly.
2. There are no plans to amend or repeal Article 3 of the Loi (1804) au Sujet des Assemblées Paroissiales which, in translation, reads:

Deputies of the States shall have the right to attend, but not to vote, in the Assembly of the Parish that they represent or in which the constituency that they represent is situated, as the case may be.

If this Article is repealed it will deprive a Deputy who does not live in a Parish but who is elected to represent the constituents of a parish, or district within a parish, of the right to attend and address the Parish Assembly. This would place the Deputy at a disadvantage compared to a Deputy who lives in the parish.

A Deputy who lives in the parish and who is registered as an elector in accordance with the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002 is entitled to attend and to vote at a Parish Assembly.

15. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING TELECOMMUNICATIONS LEGISLATION:

Question

Will H.M. Attorney General advise members whether the Telecommunications (Jersey) Law 1972 or the Telecommunications (Jersey) Law 2002 limited, or limits, the rights of employees of Jersey Telecoms to sue their employer for breach of contract or tort?

Answer

Both Laws include Articles which relate to the exclusion or limitation of liability.

The Telecommunications (Jersey) Law 1972 (now repealed) prohibited proceedings in contract or tort against the Board for a failure to provide services, delays in providing services, interruption or restriction of services or an error or omission from a directory for use in connexion with a service. No civil liability could arise, except at the suit of the Board, against officers or servants of the Board for any loss or damage in the case of which liability of the Board was excluded.

The Telecommunications (Jersey) Law 2002 provides that the States, the Minister for Economic Development, the Chief Minister and a person carrying out activities on behalf of one of the Ministers, are not liable for damages for anything done or omitted in the discharge of functions under the Law unless it is shown that the act or omission was in bad faith.

Neither of these limitations on liability limited or limits the rights of employees of Jersey Telecom to sue their employer for breach of contract or tort.

3. Oral Questions

1. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s regarding welfare payments for vulnerable members of the community:

Will the Chairman advise what discussions, if any, have taken place with the Social Security Department following the suggestion by the Connétable of St. Peter in the States on 6th October 2015 that a welfare payment for vulnerable members of the community could be introduced in conjunction with the Parishes, and outline what consideration has been given to the assistance that would be provided and how people could apply?

Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Comité des Connétable s)

No discussions have taken place with Social Security, but the Comité des Connétable s remain ready to offer assistance to that department, should they need it, to meet their obligations. I would like to point out that welfare is not simply about providing money and the real strength of the Parishes is in offering practical assistance, advice, guidance and support to the most vulnerable in our society and it is in this area that the Connétable s, Parish staff and community support teams dispense such an invaluable service.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

So the Chairman is saying either before the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) cuts or after there have been no discussions collectively between the Constables how to offer welfare assistance? Is he saying that he does not think that as the Constables do offer this or could offer some assistance, how many Constables does he know or has he himself called a Parish Assembly to discuss the effect of the cuts on the elderly?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I am not aware of any such meetings.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Just one more supplementary. If he cannot answer for anybody else, is he intending in his Parish to hold an assembly to discuss the cuts? Because the concern for the Constable of St. Peter was he knew that there would be 20 to 25 per cent of the elderly who would be affected by the cuts and he was hoping that this may help them. But obviously the Constable is now saying nothing has been done collectively, what is he intending to do himself?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

The Constable of St. Clement is going to continue working for and on behalf of all the residents of St. Clement and will be offering support through the community support teams for our charitable trust to the most vulnerable in our society. Where people need help and guidance with income support we will direct them to the appropriate department and people within that department. Where people need help in other areas, whether it be simply someone to talk to, someone to give them guidance, someone to give them advice, we will do that as well. We support the parishioners of St. Clement, and I am sure the other Parishes do, in a very practical and sympathetic way. As I said in my answer, welfare is not simply about doling out money. It is about doling out support, advice and guidance.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

In light of that response, will the Constable table an issue for his next meeting of the Comité des Connétable s to discuss any rise they may have detected in complaints of hardship because of the cuts to income support?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

Should that scenario arise of course we will.

4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

The Constable has said that welfare is not simply about doling out money but doling out support, advice and guidelines, so on the latter, what support, advice and guidelines will this Connétable and the Comité be doling out to their parishioners who are finding it particularly difficult with the barrage of often multiple cuts that they will be facing this Christmas and throughout the next few years?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

In the Parish Hall s each parishioner is dealt with as an individual. Each family is dealt with and each have their own special circumstances and they will be guided by the community support team, by the Parish staff, or by the Connétable himself as is required to sort out their needs and requirements. Proper professional advice and guidance will be offered.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

What specifically can the Comité des Connétable s offer to perhaps individual, single parents who are facing a loss of £2,500 per year in their incomes or to disabled people who are facing in the region of £600 a year loss of income in their particular situations? Will they be able to go to the Parish Hall and seek welfare in all its forms?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I think that the Deputy must have forgotten, but in 2008 the financial side of welfare, the monetary side of welfare, was transferred to the Social Security Department, to the States, to the taxpayer, and that part of it named income support. It is up to the States to decide whether they wish to increase, decrease or change the income support criteria. What the Parishes will do is in special circumstances or in circumstances which they consider appropriate will give guidance and support to their parishioners. But the financial side of income support is absolutely with the Social Security Department.

[9:45]

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:

In hindsight, would the Chairman not say that all the Constables - that at least this should have been put on the agenda? When the cuts were mooted in the M.T.F.P. the body of Constables could have acted like their House of Lords in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and they could have looked at maybe saying no - maybe looking at .. we do know that 20 or 25 per cent of our parishioners, elderly, will be affected. They could have asked them to maybe target it, maybe means test it. Does the Chairman of the Constables not say, in hindsight, next time cuts are brought by the Council at least they should be discussed on the agenda by the Comité?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

Certainly they were discussed and we were pleased to welcome a delegation from the Social Security Department and indeed the Minister and Assistant Minister to a meeting of the Comité and at the end of the day every Constable voted and spoke as he or she felt on the proposals that were being made in the Medium Term Financial Plan.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Supplementary. The Chairman started his answer to the first question saying they have never discussed this. Now, which one is the truth? I am sorry, Constable.

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I answered the question absolutely truthfully. "Will the Chairman advise what discussions, if any, have taken place with Social Security following the suggestion of the Constable of St. Peter in the States on 6th October." We met the Minister and the team well before 6th October.

8. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Could the Constable give that date on which they received a delegation from Social Security? The Connétable of St. Clement :

Not off the top of my head, no.

The Bailiff :

The final supplementary has taken some time and that is my excuse for saying that I overlooked Deputy Andrew Lewis . If he would like to ask a question he certainly may. He was already on my list.

9. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

My question to the Constable was: he mentioned 2008 changes and perhaps the urban Parishes are the most to benefit from the changes in centralising welfare. However, one of the big changes that

was talked about was the less consultation with parishioners and whether the Constables of the Parishes have had as much of a handle on what was happening in their Parishes with regard to welfare as they had before. Does the Constable feel that anything has changed significantly and does he fully understand his parishioners now that welfare and the benefit system has been centralised in the way that it has. Does he have a full handle on his parishioners needs for benefits?

The Connétable of St. Clement :

I would like to think I do and I like to think that we do. I came into office as Connétable in 2008 and I did recognise that contact had been lost undoubtedly with some members of the community who needed support. As I say, not just financial support. That is the easy bit in many ways. That is the easy bit. Just give them £50, £100, whatever it is. But it is the contact, the advice, the guidance, the warmth that a community can provide to each other, particularly to the most vulnerable in society. That is why at that time I set up the St. Clement community support team, which has been followed by other Parishes who probably felt the same thing. It is not just about money. It is about support, advice, guidance and practical assistance. Sometimes when a lady of a certain age is living by herself, changing a lightbulb can be major thing and that is where we have volunteers who will just go round and do that for them. But people are suffering from perhaps a temporary invalidity situation. They need to get to the hospital or to a doctor or even do some shopping in town. We have people who volunteer and take them in their own cars to do that or do the shopping for them. That help, it is immeasurable how valuable that is. It is not simply a matter of money. It is a matter of support and advice and I do think that we have got more of a handle now than we did perhaps when income support was first transferred on helping these people. Judging by the number that we are able to help I am very proud of our community support team.

The Bailiff :

Just for the sake of Hansard, a note that although he was out of the Island about 8 minutes ago Senator Ozouf has arrived, and I have no doubt by helicopter.

2. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the impact of Income Support cuts upon the mental health of vulnerable residents:

Can the Minister advise whether the mental health of some of Jersey's most vulnerable residents has been exacerbated by the realisation that their income support is being cut, and if so, what steps, if any, does the Minister propose to take to alleviate this?

Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

At the present time I am not aware of any adverse impact on mental health of people using our mental health services following the proposed changes to income support.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

I can certainly vouch for the fact that people who are already in a vulnerable position for whatever reason facing challenges, whether that is Anne from St. Helier , Fiona from St. Lawrence, or Leslie from St. Martin - who was in the media the other day - who already does suffer from mental health issues, has had his problem and those have had their mental health issues exacerbated by the stress and the unclarity that has been caused by the letters that have gone out from the Social Security Department. So I would ask the Minister, given the fact that we can only expect that such people do exist and that their problems will be particularly felt at this time, to ask what mechanisms and what support he can offer to those individuals who may have particular issues caused by this particular government's austerity project.

And the question, Deputy ? Deputy M. Tadier :

I think I asked the question. Sorry, it may have been lost  in the .. is to ask what support mechanisms the Minister could roll out for them.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

The names the Deputy reeled off, if they are known to the service, or if they are not known to the service, if they have got concerns I suggest that they make contact with us and we will help them. I think it is forgotten what these changes are about. It is not about austerity. This is about investing, allowing the investment, particularly in health, but in mental health. We have got £1.1 million gone into Talking Therapies. Because of the changes, £2.4 million next year going into delivering additional community-based mental health services and a further £2.1 million the year after. This is what this investment is about.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister said that he was not aware, which is very convenient, the question must be: has he asked whether? Has he asked and if not will he ask the practitioners at the chalk face, at the frontline, whether they have noticed an increase in anxiety and worries from those with mental health over the cuts to their benefits adding to the difficulties in leading a decent life?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

Does the Member think that I would come to this Assembly to answer that question without first asking the people on the coalface that very question; yes, I have asked.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I think it goes further than asking the people on the coalface. What consultation has been done with the Social Security Department when they are coldly sending out these letters, and I do not mean in the word "coldly". They are just randomly sending them out. An issue of mental health, is it being discussed with the department? What scale on the mental health scale are they? Some of these letters could be sending people over the edge. Is there any discussion between the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Minister for Social Security?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

There are no discussions on a named basis, because the exchange of names would not be allowed under the data protection. But I am aware that some people, and a very small number, are seeing some change. Change is stressful. But what we are trying to do is support people in the community to allow them to be able to live in the community, to be supported by the new services that we are going to be providing. I will be taking Members through the Mental Health Strategy on Friday. Rather than just doling out money, we will be supporting people and helping them to recover.

4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

I would like to also ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to discuss with frontline staff the impact of the changes. The link between poverty and mental health problems are well known and it is interesting to note a significant increase in the number of people needing to claim income support and long-term incapacity, and perhaps if he could guarantee that there was some further investigation into this. Certainly, as a frontline G.P. (general practitioner) working over there, I can vouch that in the last 2 or 3 years there has been a significant increase in distress caused in this way.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

The original question was: were the changes in social security causing more mental stress for some people? Change does cause stress in some people. I accept that. I am always prepared to go back and ask again, but the whole emphasis of the changes that we are making, not just in social security but throughout the States, is to allow the investment of £40 million a year by 2019 in health services. Much of that is to improve mental health services.

5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

The Minister will be well aware that a lobby group in the U.K. made a lot of noise yesterday about increased services in mental health in the U.K. and the U.K. Government has pledged £3.5 billion into mental health, which is a sizeable part of the N.H.S. (National Health Service) budget. Is he satisfied that what is being proposed in the budgets going forward in Jersey is adequate enough, understanding fully more now the needs of the mental health requirements of Jersey and perhaps other jurisdictions? Is he satisfied that it is enough now and would he be looking to put more into this area when it is possible in the future?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

We have a mental health strategy that we are launching on Friday and Members are able to come along and take part in that discussion. But proportionately, if you look at the new investment that we have already planned for, proportionately it is very similar to that in the U.K. So I am satisfied we are moving in the right direction. Absolutely satisfied. £3.5 billion in the U.K. is roughly equivalent to £3.5 million over here.

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I think it was in response to a question from Deputy Martin, the Minister referred to this as affecting a small number of people. Could he give an indication to the Assembly exactly what he thinks the number of people there are out there with mental health problems, who will be facing cuts to their support?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I am afraid I do not have that information.

7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Therefore, how can he say it is a small number of people? Senator A.K.F. Green:

Based on the information I have from Social Security, not about named individuals, a particular set of circumstances have to occur for this change in this particular area and I am told that is a small number.

8. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour :

Would the Minister consider changing the system slightly so that there was a single point of contact, a named person within the Income Support Department that people could discuss their details with when they are going through changes like this or anything of income support? As I believe there is some evidence that having to share confidential and sensitive information with lots of different people within the department can be quite distressing and affect mental health.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I understand where the Member is coming from and I am certainly happy to discuss that with the Minister for Social Security, but it would be under her remit. But certainly happy to do that.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

I think the question has to be: does the Minister for Health and Social Services recognise not just the human cost that is being inflicted on thousands of individuals across the Island - who are receiving these letters being informed of a material cut in their income every month - but also the economic cost to us; because when people's mental health and other health deteriorates that becomes a false economy; and I say it is much better to make sure people do not have mental health issues in the first place - in this case caused directly by government policy - than to use some of their money to build a mental health service for them so that they can receive services for a problem that the Government has created. Does the Minister not agree with that point?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I agree with much of what the Member has said. It is right to invest in mental health services to prevent the problem becoming a major problem in the first place. That is why we invested £1.6 million in Talking Therapies, for example. When you get in there early, you can sometimes prevent a problem. All these changes are about investing in the economy, about investing in health and about investing in education. If we carry on doing the same thing you always get the same outcome.

Deputy M. Tadier :

On the back of the poor.

3. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding requirements for drivers to report accidents involving animals to the police:

Following recent publicity regarding the alleged cruel treatment of a cat which had been run over and euthanized at the side of the road by the driver, would the Minister consider extending the law to require drivers to report accidents involving cats to the police, putting cats on a parity with dogs, and if not, why not?

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

I understand the concerns of the Deputy and those supporting the petition about animal welfare, and in particular the current provisions in Jersey that protect cats against cruelty or unnecessary suffering. I can confirm that all domestic animals, including cats, are protected from cruelty under the Animal Welfare (Jersey) Law 2004. It is this law that makes it a criminal offence to cause unnecessary suffering to an animal without reasonable cause or excuse.

[10:00]

The police are using these powers to investigate the incident that has led to this oral question and to the petition. I would, therefore, like to invite the Deputy and the organisers of the petition to meet with myself, the Minister for Planning and Environment and the States Vet to consider how the laws relating to this might be strengthened.

1. Deputy P.D. McLinton:

Again, I thank the Minister for the invitation to meet with the people behind the petition, which has reached some 3,000 people now. However, in the Minister's answer I was hoping to hear the words "be made illegal not to call the police in the event of striking a cat with a motor vehicle". That was really the simple question and so can the Minister now state in this Assembly that he would see through legislation or would make it against the law to drive off having struck a cat?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

The provisions within the Road Traffic Law and the Highway Code relate to the duty of owners to prevent farm animals from straying onto the highway and to keep animals under control when being led or herded. In this instance, dogs are also included in that provision. The legislation relates to animals which are likely to stray and pose a risk to road users and the liability to their owners. The function of the requirement to report an accident is to allow the question of responsibility for damage or injury to be settled and permit the police to take action to bring the animal back under control of the owner; and for these purposes, I have already mentioned dogs are required to be registered and licenced. The reason cats are excluded, and not licenced, is that the owners are not expected to keep their cats under the same level of control. Cats are considered to be free agents and owners are not usually liable for their behaviour. Cats cannot realistically be fenced in. While it is not impossible to include cats in the Road Traffic Law, its benefits to animal welfare would be limited and indirect; and as a cat owner myself, if you could actually ever own a cat, I personally would like to be informed if they were involved in a road traffic accident, and the mechanism for that is something that we need to explore further. However, I do not currently think it is appropriate that that should be covered under the Road Traffic Law but something that we can extend the Animal Welfare Law to include.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Is the Minister not making heavy weather of this? The Road Traffic 1956 (Jersey) Law says that, basically, if you hit an animal or a person you have to stop and report it. The problem is that in part 3 of the Article it says an animal means a horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep, pig, goat or dog. Can we not simply add "cat" to that list, see how that works and take it from there?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

In simple terms, that sounds like a solution. But in reality, those animals that are included in those laws are to trace the owner and to apportion responsibility for the accident and, therefore, farm animals are traceable and so are dogs. In this instance, I believe a better mechanism is for the law under the prevention of cruelty to animals to be the place where we put that condition in. I do believe that the people that should be reported to is the animal shelter or the vet fraternity in the Island and not the police. One of the reasons for that is that members of the public might be less inclined to contact the police if they have the misfortune of having an accident involving their vehicle and a cat, whereby they are more likely to contact the animal shelter and, therefore, either help given to the injured animal or at least the owners are informed of what has happened. So I believe that there is a gap currently in the legislation, but the appropriate law to amend, I believe, is the Animal Welfare Law and not the Road Traffic Law and I am happy to work with Deputy McLinton and the organisers of the petition, along with the Minister for Planning and Environment and the States Vet, to bring that about.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

There is a gap in the law and it is a 3-letter word, it is called "cat". [Approbation] That is what is missing from the law. To listen to the Minister speak: saying that if we put "cat" in the law then there might be fewer people phoning the police, if and when they do hit a cat, is frankly nonsensical. Does the Minister accept that this part of the law is not about the police's response to the practicalities of finding the owners? It is about the responsibility of the driver to stop and inform the police in the event that they do hit what is a much-loved pet in this Island and what we would hope people would do anyway, but it does provide that back-up in law.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

As I said, the Road Traffic Law is probably not the place to put such a stipulation in. For example, in a road accident now the driver of the vehicle is not allowed to move that vehicle until the police give them permission to do so. It is the wrong tool to solve the problem. The problem is that the public need to take responsibility when involved in such incidents and also the owners and the veterinary services need to be able to help that animal if it has been injured. The best way, I believe, to do that is not changing the Road Traffic Law but to change the Animal Cruelty Law.

4. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary :

Again, to revert to the basic question: a member of my family unfortunately hit a cat some years ago in the early morning; was quite distressed about it, stopped, no cat there, as often happens. When the Parish Hall was open he took the trouble, through me, to notify the Parish Hall of what had happened and they immediately were able to locate the owner. Is that not the nub of the problem? That too often we see in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) and hear on radio notices as to stray cats or whatever. It is the owners who want the comfort of knowing what might have happened and a simple amendment to the law, whether it is the Road Traffic Law or under the environmental legislation - I do not think anyone minds - but could at least the 2 Ministers liaise and get the word "cat" put in that law to avoid this problem?

The Bailiff :

Minister, could you liaise and .. Deputy E.J. Noel:

I have already offered to work with the Deputy and the organisers of the petition, along with my colleague, the Minister for Planning and Environment, to bring this about into legislation. It is just that the appropriate legislation is the Animal Welfare Law and not the Road Traffic Law.

5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I have, unfortunately, lost 3 cats on Jersey's roads in recent years. On each occasion the J.S.P.C.A. (Jersey Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) were excellent and they notified us immediately, because the cats were chipped. Could it not be made mandatory that all cats are chipped? It is a very simple, painless process and as a result you have the satisfaction that you know what has happened to your cat, both for the driver and for the owner. The J.S.P.C.A. helps them as well because they often get a call and cannot identify the cat. So, simple legislation that would allow all cats to be chipped could have all sorts of benefits. Perhaps it is one for the Minister for Planning and Environment. Perhaps the Minister would be prepared to comment on it.

The Bailiff :

I was going to say, Deputy , it is not a matter for the Minister for Transport and Technical Services. Deputy E.J. Noel:

I am quite happy to comment on it. I agree with much of what Deputy Lewis of St. Helier has said. The appropriate place for this is under the Animal Welfare Law, not under the Road Traffic Law and I am willing to work with the Minister for Planning and Environment to bring that about.