States Meeting Transcript - 5th October 2015

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT MONDAY, 5th OCTOBER 2015

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................1

1. Former Member of the States – Mr. John de Carteret - Tribute ..........................2 The Bailiff :....................................................................................2

QUESTIONS......................................................................................2

2. Written Questions........................................................................2

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GAS SUPPLIES:.....................................2
2. DEPUTY G. P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REVIEW OF PATIENT TRANSPORT SERVICES:..............................................................................2
3. DEPUTY G. P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REVIEW OF DOMICILLARY CARE SERVICES:..............................................................................2
4. SENATOR Z. A. CAMERON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING TEMPORARY EMPLOYMENT:...........................2
5. SENATOR Z. A. CAMERON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING STAFF WITH RESIDENTIAL QUALIFICATIONS:.......2
6. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING DEPARTMENTAL VEHICLES:......2
7. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING FUNDING FOR CUSTOMS AND IMMIGRATION: ...................2
8. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING INVESTMENT IN EDUCATION: ...........2
9. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING E-GOVERNMENT:.....................................................................2

10. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING TELEVISION LICENCES:..............................................................2
11. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CORPORATE SERVICES SCRUTINY PANEL REGARDING THE ESPLANADE CAR PARK:.............................................................................2
12. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE REMAND OF CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS: ...........................2
13. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING CONTAMINATION ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED BY THE STATES OF JERSEY DEVELOPMENT COMPANY: ............................2

14. THE DEPUTY OF ST. OUEN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING INSURANCE COVER FOR DOCTORS:...................2

3. Oral Questions............................................................................2

1. Senator Z.A. Cameron of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding complaints made about staff by staff within Health and Social Services:.................2 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):..........................2

1. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..................................................................2
2. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..................................................................2

2. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the consideration of People's Park as the location of the new hospital:...................2 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):..........................2

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:......................................................................2
2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:........................................................2
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:......................................................................2
4. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:........................................................2
5. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:........................................................2
6. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:...........................................................2
7. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:.......................................................2
8. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:............................................2
9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:......................................................................2

3. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Social Security regarding the payment of Child Personal Care benefit:....................................................................2 Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):...........................2

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:......................................................................2
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................2
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:......................................................................2
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:......................................................................2

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the distribution of the proceeds of economicgrowth:...........................................................2 Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):...................................2

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2
3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:......................................................2
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2

5. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding taxpayers funding for the provision of the public service delivered by the taxi- cab industry:.............................................................................2 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):.......2

1. The Deputy of Grouville :................................................................2
2. The Deputy of Grouville :................................................................2
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
4. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2
5. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:......................................................2
6. Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2
7. The Deputy of Grouville :................................................................2

6. Deputy R. Labey of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding progress made in the prevention of the widespread abuse by non-residents of parking spaces specifically allotted to tenants of housing association properties:.....................................2

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):..........................2

1. Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2
2. Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the reasons for the fall in the standard of living in Jersey since 2007:..................................................2 Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):...................................2

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
5. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2
6. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2

7. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade:......................................................2
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2

8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding levels of tax revenue lost to the Treasury since Zero-Ten was introduced:............................2 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):..........................2

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
2. Deputy M.J.Higgins:....................................................................2
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
7. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary:..........................................................2
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
   9. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chief Minister regarding the commemoration of Reform Day' to mark the anniversary of the events in Jersey of 28th September 1769:................2 Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):...................................2

1. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
3. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2

10. The Deputy of Grouville of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the restoration of Jersey's historical fishing rights in Channel Islands waters:................2 Senator L.J. Farnham (The Minister for Economic Development):.............................2

1. The Deputy of Grouville : .............................................................2
2. The Deputy of Grouville : .............................................................2

11. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the impact of the removal of £40 per week from the lone parent component of Income Support:..........2 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):..........................................2

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
3. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................2
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the expenditure on the new police station: ...................................................2 Deputy E.J. Noel (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):...............2

3.12.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:................................................................2

13. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for Social Security regarding raising Jersey's minimum wage to ensure parity with the U.K:...........................................2 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):..........................................2

13. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
3. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ..................................................................2

14. Senator Z.A. Cameron of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the diversification of the Fiscal Policy Panel: ................................................2 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):..........................2

1. Senator Z.A. Cameron:................................................................2
2. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:..................................................2
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:................................................................2

15. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding discussions relating to the consideration of People's Park as a possible location for the new hospital with the Connétable of St. Helier::.......................................................2 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):..........................2

1. Deputy J.A. Martin: ..................................................................2
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:...................................................................2
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................2
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: ..................................................................2

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services....................................................................................2

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :......................................................................2 Deputy E.J. Noel (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):........................2

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :......................................................................2
   2. Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2

4.2.1 Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2

4.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2

4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ....................................................2

4.4.1 The Connétable of St. Mary:.............................................................2

5. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2

4.5.1 Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2

6. Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade : .....................................................2
7. Deputy A.D. Lewis :......................................................................2

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Chief Minister.............................2

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :......................................................................2 Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur)....................................2
2. Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................2
3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:......................................................................2
4. The Deputy of Grouville :................................................................2
5. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:...................................................2
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :......................................................................2
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2

5.8.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :...................................................................2

9. Deputy K.C. Lewis :......................................................................2
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................2
11. Deputy R. Labey : ........................................................................2

ADJOURNMENT.................................................................................2

[14:31]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. Former Member of the States – Mr. John de Carteret - Tribute

The Bailiff :

Members will have noticed that Mr. John de Carteret sadly died over the weekend. Mr. de Carteret was elected as a Deputy in St. Lawrence in 1975 and served one term of 3 years, as it then was, in that capacity. He was subsequently elected as a Senator in 1978 when he topped the poll. During his time in the States he was known as a fluent contributor in debates and he served on the establishment of the Gambling Control and Overseas Aid Committees. He retired from the States in 1984, although he obviously did not lose his enthusiasm for politics, standing again, unsuccessfully as it turned out, in the 1990s. I am sure Members would want to join me in expressing our sympathy to his widow and family and I ask Members to stand for a few moments in the customary way in his memory as a past Member of the Assembly. [Silence observed] May he rest in peace.

QUESTIONS

2. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GAS SUPPLIES:

Question

Will the Minister inform members when he intends to report to the States the results of the investigation by CICRA into the pricing of domestic and commercial gas supplies?

Answer

The JCRA committed to have the first stage of the Fuel Market Review completed by the third quarter of 2015 and I can confirm that the department received a draft of the report for comment on 30th September. Officers are currently reviewing the draft which covers some of the complex issues in the gas, heating oil and road fuel markets. The intention is to send comments back by Friday 9th October and it will be for the JCRA to determine when is the right time to publish the first stage of the review and whether it is necessary to progress any aspects to a second stage.

The terms of reference for the review are attached for information.

FUEL MARKET INVESTIGATION: TERMS OF REFERENCE Introduction

Previous reports by the JCRA have shown that there is a widening difference between UK and Jersey retail prices for  fuel  products. As a consequence, the Minister has asked the JCRA to conduct a market review into the supply, distribution and sale of fuel products in and to Jersey.

Previous JCRA Market Reviews include:

• Marine Fuel Market Study 2014

• Aviation Fuel Market Study 2014
• Heating Oil Review 2012
• Road Fuel 2011

The aims of the market investigation are twofold:

1. To conduct a review of all stages of the supply chain, starting with the ex-refinery wholesale market, of fuel to Jersey and the supply chain in Jersey and identify whether there are reasonable grounds to suspect that a feature or a combination of features of market/s for the supply and acquisition of fuel for supply in Jersey are not acting in the best interests of consumers.
2. Depending on the results of the first stage, the JCRA will focus on areas of potential concern in more detail. This may provide recommendations on changes to legislation or government policy, or suggest customer behaviour that might promote the functioning of the market.

Stage 1: Diagnostic Assessment (3-6 months)

The JCRA will conduct a high level assessment of trends in gross margins at key stages in the supply chain of the fuel markets to and in Jersey – including road fuel, heating oil, and gas. Where gross margins demonstrate unexplained trends, providers will be requested to substantiate and explain the evidence found. This will inform whether there are reasonable grounds for to suspect that a feature or a combination of features of the market/s for the supply and acquisition of fuel in Jersey are failing to work in consumers' interests. The key stages examined will be:

The JCRA will conduct an assessment of:

- Whether there is prima facie evidence in gross margins and/or unexplained trends over the past three years to suggest competition is not working effectively in the fuel market. This will consider the separate fuel markets as well as the conduct of particular firms.

- Consider whether any specific aspects of the supply chain suggest further examination is justified and the appropriate means to carry out more detailed market assessment

- The review will also consider any possible structural issues and the conduct of customers

Step 1 will help to identify more detailed work required during the second stage and ensure that resources are utilised appropriately and targeted. It is not at this stage anticipated that formal information powers will be required. With full co-operation from the companies concerned, this work is likely to take approximately three months to complete but we suggest a 3-6 month time period is more realistic formally commencing in Q2 and concluding in Q3 of 2015.

Stage 2: Detailed Investigation

It is likely that the Stage 1 Review will identify areas for more detailed investigation by the JCRA. As a result of this more focussed work, the JCRA may provide recommendations on, for example, the implications of States contractual agreements, legislation or customer action that may better support competition and choice. Any breaches of the Law will be investigated appropriately.

Formal investigation under the Competition Law

Recommend changes to legistlation (ncluding future regulation if appropriate)

Recommendations for future government policy Encourage changes in consumer behaviour

The length of time and resources which may be required for this stage of the review are clearly dependent on the results of the first stage.

2. DEPUTY G. P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REVIEW OF PATIENT TRANSPORT SERVICES:

Question

Will the Minister detail for members what changes are involved in the "review of patient transport services" which appears on page 83 of the Annex to the draft Medium Term Financial Plan 2016 -2019?

Answer

The review' will be just that and will encompass the following challenges:

• Who are we transporting and why?
• When and where do we transport patients and is there room for greater efficiency?
• Are our criteria for patient transport fit for purpose'?
• How do we reduce aborted journeys'?
• Should the user pay a contribution – for example, if the journey is to a private institution or if they receive long-term care benefit?
• Could the voluntary sector undertake any of the activity?

• Would any changes in the patient transport service have an impact upon the front-line ambulance service?
• Is it possible to make a saving on the current running costs?

The Health and Social Services Department has to deliver savings and a range of schemes is being considered, including reviewing the provision of patient transport services. As yet, no changes have been agreed for this area.

3. DEPUTY G. P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REVIEW OF DOMICILLARY CARE SERVICES:

Question

Does the Minister accept that the "review" of domiciliary care services has resulted in the cessation of this service on the part of Family Nursing and Home Care and will result in increased costs for those concerned to replace this service?

Answer

I assume the Deputy 's question relates to FNHC's decision to stop providing domestic support (cleaning services). In its news release, FNHC said: FNHC has a long history of providing care in the community and this change will mean that we will continue to focus on what we do best, the delivery of high quality care to those who have more complex needs, those who require district nursing and those who require personal care such as assistance to wash and dress and take medication.'

Domiciliary care' covers a range of personal care and support services such as helping people to get into and out of bed each morning and evening, ensuring that medicines are taken at the right time, or assisting with bathing and getting dressed.

There are a number of companies in Jersey who provide cleaning services. Individuals are able to choose from these providers, and it is likely that people will not make their choice based on price alone, but will also consider issues such as quality of service, personal recommendation and convenience.

4. SENATOR Z. A. CAMERON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING TEMPORARY EMPLOYMENT:

Question

Over the last 12 months how many members of staff were employed by the Health and Social Services Department on a temporary basis or stayed for less than a year and in what capacity were they employed?

Answer

113 staff (4.7% of the workforce) were employed on temporary contracts. The majority of these (37%) were civil servants (therapists, social workers, scientists, admin staff), junior doctors (32%) or nursing staff (15%).

Of these staff, 35 left after less than 1 year – the majority were junior doctors (24) rotating back to the UK as part of their planned training. Civil servants accounted for 7 of these staff.

In terms of permanent staff, 24 stayed for less than a year, mainly in nursing (10) and civil service (10) pay groups.

5. SENATOR Z. A. CAMERON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING STAFF WITH RESIDENTIAL QUALIFICATIONS: Question

What percentage of staff employed by the Health and Social Services Department over the last 12 month had local residential qualifications?

Answer

In the year to August 2015, the HSSD workforce mapped across to the 4 categories of residential qualifications as follows –

Entitled - 63%

Entitled to work - 18% Registered - 2%

Licensed - 17%

6. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING DEPARTMENTAL VEHICLES: Question

1. Could the Minister inform members ofthe number of vehicles used by States departments which run on diesel?
2. Could the Minister reveal what the department's policy is on reducing polluting emissions from States vehicles and what measures, if any, have been taken in recent years touse more electric vehicles?
3. How many electric vehicles are in use at the moment and what plans, if any, are there to expand their use?

Answer

1. As of 30th September 2015 the States fleet comprised of 724 road registered vehicles, the breakdown of which is a s follows:

520 Diesel road registered vehicles (cars, vans, heavy goods vehicles).

42 Road registered items of plant running on duty free diesel (gas oil).

144 Petrol road registered vehicles (cars, vans, motorcycles)

17 Electric powered road registered vehicles (cars, works trucks, motorcycles). 1 L.P.G. road registered fork lift truck.

2. The Department's Fleet Management policy for States vehicles includes a nominal 8-year replacement period for owned vehicles; this provides a balance of purchase cost, environmental improvements in vehicle technology, maintenance cost and residual value and is in line with current industry standards. As a result, all commercial vehicles in the fleet exceed the Euro 3 emission standard with the majority being Euro 4 compliant or better.

In the case of cars contracted on a short term lease-hire arrangement, these are replaced annually by the supplier and comply with the latest emission standards, the vast majority being rated at less than 100 g/km of CO2 (the current accepted criteria for Ecofriendly' recognition).

In 2011 the department procured an electric works truck to operate within the town parks area and specifically in the Millennium Town Park both as a trial of electric vehicle capability and to generate minimum emissions within this enclosed and populated area.

In 2012 the department included a requirement for a trial batch of 10 leased electric cars in the tendering of leased cars for use by the States for the period 2013 to 2015. These cars are in use by three departments (TTS, Environment and EDD) who agreed to sponsor' the additional cost of leasing these EVs in support of their own departmental environmental policies. The lease cost of these cars is more than double that of petrol/diesel equivalents and is only partially offset by lower fuel and maintenance costs. 6 of the original 10 electric cars will continue to be leased for the period 2016 – 2018 to enable a longer term evaluation; however changing departmental requirements will result in 4 being returned to the supplier in early 2016.

In 2014 TTS – Jersey Fleet Management purchased 3 electric cars for use by a section of Home Affairs which were being offered at a discounted rate and therefore combined the environmental benefits for town/urban use with acceptable economic implications.

3. As of 30th September 2015 the States Electric Fleet comprises of 17 road registered vehicles, the breakdown of which is as follows:

13 Small Cars

2 Small Works trucks

2 Motorcycle Scooters

The current electric vehicles used by the States have been procured to test their usability and viability. Although they can be operationally effective the high initial purchase cost (generally twice the cost of their petrol/diesel equivalent), do not out way the lower fuel cost and environmental benefits. As a result there are no plans to increase their use during the current financial climate. As explained in answer to question (b); the current leased electrical vehicle fleet of 10 cars is to reduce to 6 in 2016.

7. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING FUNDING FOR CUSTOMS AND IMMIGRATION:

Question

Following the admission in a scrutiny hearing that the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service is currently under-resourced, what bids, if any, for extra funding will the Minister be making to ensure that further savings made from 2017 onwards will not risk the Service's ability to function properly?

Answer

Due to previous spending reviews there was an associated reduction in resources in the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service. However, for a number of years the Service has examined and successfully introduced methods of working that have increased efficiency and effectiveness within available budgets without adversely affecting the functions of the Service.

More recently, using the LEAN methodology, the Service has augmented controls at the borders and reduced overtime through an increased use of the multifunctional system of working of Officers.

Currently my Officers from both Customs and Immigration and the States of Jersey Police are examining ways for further collaborative working.

Increased collaboration will result in further efficiencies and will mitigate any risk to the Service's ability to function properly should further savings be required from 2017 onwards.

It is therefore not my intention to make any bid for extra funding for the Customs and Immigration Service.

8. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING INVESTMENT IN EDUCATION:

Question

Following the admission in a scrutiny hearing that the budget of the Education, Sport and Culture Department is actually being reduced next year by £263,200 once changing demographics have been factored in, how does the Minister intend to proceed from 2017 onwards to ensure that the Council of Minister does not continue to be in breach of its Strategic Plan commitment to increase investment in education?

Answer

Since last November, the Council of Ministers, the Corporate Management Board and department teams have spent a considerable amount of time working on a sustainable solution to tackle the deficit. The importance of education has been recognised throughout the discussions, which have been lengthy and difficult at times.

We have reached a position where Education, Sport and Culture's budget for 2016 is £111.4 million – an increase of £2.8 million on the previous year. This means the department is in a position where it is still able to meet its statutory duties and provide education to the increased number of students in our schools.

If the issue of changing demographics is separated out – which is not the approach taken by the Minister or department – the investment may not be obvious in the revenue budget. However, it is clearly apparent once the capital expenditure is added:

• £40 million for Les Quennevais School
• £10 million for Grainville Phase 5
• £5.5 million for St Mary's School refurbishment

The Minister will continue to play a full part in Council of Ministers' ongoing discussions about investment and will continue to champion the case for supporting education.

9. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING E-GOVERNMENT:

Question

Following the decision earlier this year to temporarily take a break from implementing e- Government, could the Chief Minister outline at what stage this is at now and state how much money has been spent on what in the intervening period?

Answer

eGov is a complex programme established to transform services across the States of Jersey. Services are being reengineered both within and across existing departmental boundaries.

The programme aims to:

• Reorganise services around customers and move services online
• Deliver a more efficient public sector
• Stimulate the local digital industry.

A briefing will be arranged for States Members to explain progress in detail. In summary, progress to date includes: -

Business change

A Design Authority is being established to create the layout for, amongst other things, systems and data architecture. This will help the States of Jersey adopt organisation-wide, rather than departmental, solutions. This will improve customer service and internal efficiency. We are currently out to tender for this work.

A portfolio governance function is also being established to manage the complex interdependencies of the Reform and eGov programmes and to ensure benefits are clearly identified and realised.

Technical developments

Business requirements for online authentication have been established and we are in the advanced stages of negotiation with industry bodies.

Foundations

We are working on publishing open government data, a natural extension to our approach to Freedom of Information. We are also expanding our ability to take online payments across the States of Jersey.

Processes

A broad range of services are being simplified and moved online. This is being done both within and across departments, the latter under the banner of Tell us once'.

This will make it easier for Islanders to inform government of changes in their circumstances so that eventually they will need to give information to just one department.

Several of these improvements have already been delivered:

• new epayments (Social Security);
• Health Screening appointments in some areas (HSSD)
• rate payment (parishes);
• several more are due later this year and early next year, including GST payment (HA); pensions applications (SSD); fault reporting (TTS)

Tell us Once

Four services - registration of new residents, new businesses, births and deaths - have been joined up across multiple service providers including States departments, parishes; Jersey Financial Services Commission, GPs and funeral directors. This demonstrates designing services around customers extends beyond the boundaries of the public sector.

The Tell us Once programme has now started work on change of details (e.g. address, email, telephone); and the combined return (manpower, ITIS and contributions).

Expenditure

Expenditure from 1st January 2015 – 30th September 2015 has been £870,000. This is within budget, and includes £576,000 on eGov implementation and staff costs, and £161,000 on Tell us once.

10. DEPUTY S. Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING TELEVISION LICENCES:

Question

What discussions, if any, have taken place with the relevant authorities to investigate the possibly of the BBC funding free TV licences for the over 75s in a similar arrangement to that which has been announced in the UK?

Answer

The BBC has agreed to take on the cost of free television licences for over-75s in the UK. This will be phased in from 2018/19 with the BBC taking on the full costs from 2020/21, at which point the BBC will decide on the future of free TV licences for over-75s in the UK.

Jersey Government officials are in contact with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) on this matter. In early discussions it was established that the agreement between the UK Government and the BBC regarding over-75s licences only applies to over-75s in the UK and not to the Crown Dependencies. This is partly due to the fact that the social security systems of the jurisdictions are separate.

There has been further correspondence between Jersey Government officials and the DCMS to explore the options available for a similar agreement between the BBC and the Government of Jersey.

Discussion with DCMS and the BBC are continuing on this issue, as well as on the future of the BBC and the renewal of its charter.

11. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CORPORATE SERVICES SCRUTINY PANEL REGARDING THE ESPLANADE CAR PARK:

Question

Will the Chair advise when he proposes to present to States Members and the public his Panel's completed report into the Esplanade car-park site and, in the event of further delay, the reasons why?

Answer

The Panel's advisers Ernst and Young are presently finalising their report to us, which we anticipate receiving within a matter of days. Once this process has been completed, the Panel intends to publish the adviser's report, along with our own interim report on the matters it raises, without delay.

It should be noted that the Panel, along with its advisers, have encountered significant delays in accessing important relevant information, from the States of Jersey Development Company (SoJDC) in particular, during the course of our Jersey International Finance Centre Review.

On 12th March 2015 the Panel made a specific request for a copy (in confidence) of the un- redacted BNP Paribas valuation letter, a redacted version of which had been forwarded by SOJDC in its submission to the Panel.

This was pursued on various occasions subsequently, and on 17th April 2015 the Panel set a deadline and made direct reference to its ability to use the powers and processes available to it under the Code of Practice for Scrutiny Panels and PAC (this being the power to summons information).

On 28th April the Minister stated to the States Assembly "With regard to the projected return, this has been independently verified by BNP Paribas and although this is being supplied to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel as part of their current review it will not be made public due to highly sensitive commercial data"

On that same day a letter was sent from the Minister stating the following : ".I have included with this letter a second redacted version with more information made available. Having spoken with JDC, before sending the CSSP the un-redacted version, JDC asks for written confirmation from the CSSP that the content of the document will be kept confidential to its members (Deputies Le Fondre, Bree and K. Lewis and Constable Taylor ) and its officerand will not be disclosed by any of those individuals under any circumstance and to any party either by sight, verbally, in writing or by copy.''

This was communicated to the Panel on 29th April and the condition agreed on 30th April. Verbal agreement to this was communicated that same day, and formalised in writing on 1st May.

Despite the undertaking by the Minister, and despite the Panel having agreed to the specific condition (bearing in mind it had always stated it would treat the information in confidence), the requested information did not arrive. Therefore the BNP letter was again, subsequently, pursued by officers and the Panel.

On 18th May, a requirement was received from the States of Jersey Development Company for the Panel Members and relevant Scrutiny Officers to individually sign a highly restrictive Non- Disclosure Agreement that was entirely disproportionate to the usual trust based process for receipt of confidential documentation by Panels. It was not in accordance with the proportionate terms of confidentiality offered by the Minister for Treasury and Resources and already agreed to by the Panel at the end of April.

This agreement had postponed the Panel's agreed need, in the absence of reasonable co-operation, to pursue summonsing the States of Jersey Development Company to provide the documentation. The requested documentation was eventually received on a confidential basis but without the requirement of a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) on 29th May 2015 (ie a further delay of one month from the date of the Minster's correspondence with the Panel and indeed his response made to the States Assembly).

During June, the Panel became further frustrated at being denied access to the following documentation that was crucial to its ability to properly fulfil its role in undertaking the Review:

1. The pre-let agreement between SoJDC and UBS
2. The funding agreement between SoJDC and HSBC
3. The construction contract between SoJDC and Camerons

The Panel requested the documentation from the States of Jersey Development Company (SOJDC) on 8th June, who refused to provide it on the grounds that they had entered into a confidentiality

agreement with the respective third parties. It was also relayed to the Panel that the third parties had also refused to forward their respective documents on the same grounds regarding commercially sensitive information. This was despite the Panel's confirmation to the Chief Minister, Minister for Treasury and Resources and SoJDC of its offer to receive the information on the same terms of confidentiality as it had agreed to in order to receive the BNP Paribas Real Estate documentation on 1st May 2015.

It had been confirmed, however, by SoJDC that there was again a requirement for the Panel to individually sign a high personal liability Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). A similar NDA would be required for its advisers Ernst and Young LLP to receive the information. Whilst such NDAs were noted as being common in commercial activity, and as such were acceptable to Ernst and Young LLP, it had been agreed by the Panel, discussed with its advisers and relayed to the Chief Minister and Minister for Treasury and Resources that as a matter of principle the information must be received by the Panel and its advisers on the basis that they could have free and unfettered discussions between them about the content.

Due to the impasse, on 29th June, the Panel agreed that in the first instance the Panel's adviser, Ernst Young, should proceed to sign a non-disclosure agreement to allow them to receive the outstanding confidential information from the States of Jersey Development Company in order to be able complete their report. It should be noted that this was an attempt to unblock the log-jam' of failure to be provided with the requisite information, and that the Panel remained concerned that this might impede the flow of information between it and its adviser.

Once that report, redacted as necessary within the terms of the non-disclosure agreement, was received by the Panel it would consider own requirement to obtain the confidential documentation as outlined.

On 12th August 2015, the Panel issued a Summons requiring the States of Jersey Development Company (SoJDC) to provide it with the pre-let agreement between SoJDC and UBS, the funding agreement between SoJDC and HSBC and the construction contract between SoJDC and Camerons, together with any side letters and other documentation pertaining to these agreements. The Summons has been formally challenged by SoJDC and the matter in presently subject to due process through the Privileges and Procedures Committee.

12. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE REMAND OF CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS:

Question

Can the Chief Minister inform Members whether he is intending to review the legislation relating to the remand of children/young persons without charge for an unlimited time and if not, why not?"

Answer

The Police Procedure and Criminal Evidence (Jersey) Law 2003, Part 5, contains the relevant provisions in Jersey law which govern the granting of bail to persons under  investigation on suspicion of having committed a criminal offence or offences.

Article 31 of the Law is reproduced below. These provisions do not distinguish by age and do not include time limits.

Article 31 - Bail on arrest

Where, following a person's arrest for an offence, it appears to the custody officer that the inquiry into the offence cannot be completed within a reasonable period he may release that person on bail.

In May 2015, I made a Ministerial Decision which instructed the Law Draftsman to prepare a new draft Bail Law, which will include statutory provisions relating to pre-charge bail. The new provisions will include a limit to the duration of pre-bail, beyond which there will be a requirement to satisfy the Magistrate's Court that the investigation is being carried out efficiently and effectively.

These new provisions will take account of similar proposals currently being considered in the United Kingdom. The draft Bail Law should be lodged with the States Assembly during 2016.

13. DEPUTY J.A. HILTON  OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER  FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING CONTAMINATION ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED BY THE STATES OF JERSEY DEVELOPMENT COMPANY:

Question

Further to his response on 22nd September 2015 that he had written to the States of Jersey Development Company (SOJDC) after his meeting with them on the 3rd September 2015, specifically addressing the effects the contamination issue might have on the financial viability of the scheme, would the Minister advise whether he has received a reply, and if so, would he inform the Assembly?

Given that the cost of dealing with contamination is excluded from the fixed price construction contract sum, would the Minister advise whether, in the three months SOJDC have been on site, they have been able to give him any information on the first 90 days costs with regard to contamination issues?

Does the Minister believe that financial viability as distinct from financial profitability is an issue? Answer

The Minister has received a response to his letter.

The excavation commenced on 19th August and is still underway and therefore SOJDC does not have final out-turn costs for this elements of the works. Furthermore, as these works will feature in all six buildings on the JIFC it is not in the commercial interests of SOJDC to publicly disclose how much has been expended on dealing with the contamination on Building No.4 as this will disadvantage the Company on future tenders.

SOJDC has confirmed that the project remains both financially viable and financially profitable. SOJDC is forecasting a net receipt of £7.5million from Building No.4.

14. THE DEPUTY OF ST. OUEN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING INSURANCE COVER FOR DOCTORS:

Question

What arrangements, if any, are made by the Department of Health and Social Services to provide professional indemnity insurance cover for doctors working within the hospital service at levels of consultant, middle grade and junior?

If there are doctors who work within the public hospital service but individually arrange their own insurance cover, what are the reasons for this?

In such cases, does the Department make any contribution to insurance premiums and how are such contributions calculated?

Also in such cases, how does the Department monitor the adequacy of insurance cover, whether cover is withdrawn or restricted during the term of insurance and whether cover is renewed on a timely basis?

Would the Minister provide figures for the years 2010 - 2014 showing the amount of insurance premiums or contributions paid by the Department to provide professional indemnity insurance cover for doctors working within the hospital service at levels of consultant, middle grade and junior and, in each case, state the number of doctors covered within each grade?

Answer

The Department of Health and Social Services provides professional indemnity insurance for its staff including nurses, therapists, junior doctors, middle grade doctors, locum doctors and some consultants. This is arranged annually (through appropriate financial processes) with an international insurer as a corporate policy.

Consultant medical staff are contractually obliged to have personal indemnity insurance in place at all times. This is standard practice and recognised by the General Medical Council. In the UK this is usually just required to cover their private practice and also to provide them with medical defence union cover as NHS Trusts participate in a scheme run by the NHS Litigation Authority.

In Jersey it is acknowledged that consultants require indemnity insurance for both their public and private activity. HSSD has a system for reimbursement to recognise the public element of this activity. In 2014, 67 reimbursements were made to consultants. In 2013, the figure was 54; in 2012, 52; in 2011, 53; and in 2010, 39.

The system can be summarised as follows: if a consultant earns more than 10% of their annual public salary in additional income from private practice then we will reimburse 50% of their insurance premium; if they earn less than 10% then we reimburse all of their insurance premium (minus the basic subscription charge which the consultant will pay). There are only 8 hospital consultants who have all of their premiums reimbursed; this represents about 12% of the consultant body.

There is an exception to the rule that consultants are expected to source their own indemnity insurance for 3 of the 4 obstetric and gynaecology consultants. This is due to changes a few years ago to the premiums for consultants seeking indemnity cover who do not work on mainland UK being dramatically increased. It was agreed at that time that the corporate policy would cover these consultants  as part  of the overall  policy. These  consultants  make a contribution to  HSSD to represent their private activity cover.

All consultants are obliged to provide the details of their cover to the medical staffing department and this is part of the reimbursement process. There are a limited number of medical defence unions and medical indemnity insurers and all the consultants are insured with these well known and respected bodies. It is a contractual obligation for the consultant to have valid cover in place and any lapse would be treated as a breach of contract. Medical staffing run checks to ensure all cover is up to date. If a consultant has any difficulty obtaining cover for whatever reason they would be immediately suspended from undertaking clinical activity until the situation is rectified.

The  number  of  non-consultant  medical  staff  for  whom  HSSD  paid  professional  indemnity insurance in the period 2010-2014 was as follows:

The cost to HSSD of providing professional indemnity insurance in the period 2010-2014 was as follows:

3. Oral Questions

1. Senator  Z.A.  Cameron  of  the  Minister  for  Health  and  Social  Services  regarding complaints made about staff by staff within Health and Social Services:

Over the last 12 months, how many complaints have been made about staff by staff within Health and Social Services and how many of these have led to disciplinary hearings?

Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

Over the last 12 months, 27 formal complaints were registered, of which 2 led to disciplinary hearings.

1. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

Has the department considered introducing a culture of collaboration rather than competition and buck  passing, where  staff  are  encouraged  to  sit  down  together  and  discuss  their  differing perspectives and points of view in an environment that encourages challenge in order to learn and improve the system?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

We are working on improving the culture. The Senator implies there is not a culture of working together. I am able to say that 25 of the complaints were settled by mature discussion.

2. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

It is just a shame that those complaints were necessary in the first place.

The Bailiff :

The question? Is that a question?

Senator Z.A. Cameron: Is it not a shame?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

Well, yes, it is, but it is the real world and I do not always agree with my wife. Unfortunately, she does not have a procedure for complaining about me. [Laughter]

The Bailiff :

Some things are beyond even the States, Minister, I think. [Laughter]

2. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the consideration of People's Park as the location of the new hospital:

Can the Minister inform Members when People's Park was put forward for consideration for the location of the new hospital and by whom?

Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

I am pleased to say that the Minister for Treasury and Resources kindly agreed that I could answer this question on behalf of the M.O.G. (Ministerial Oversight Group) about the development of Health and Social Services' transformation. The People's Park was first put forward as a location for a new hospital on 22nd July this year. The site arose when Ministers and the Ministerial

Oversight Group discussed what alternatives could potentially offer a good performance, as good a performance as the 4 previous shortlisted options, and requested a planning policy opinion on different alternatives. It was discussed, I think answering the Deputy 's question, on 22nd July and no particular person put it forward. It came forward as a part of our discussions, our brainstorming, in the Ministerial Oversight Group.

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Can the Minister inform Members why this particular site was not considered in the extensive rounds of sites that were considered 2 years ago? My understanding is that the senior officer group looked at 22 sites around the Island, which was whittled down to 10 and then 3 were put forward. The 3 top runners were put forward for consideration. So I am just wondering why it was not put forward 2 years ago when they started the process.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

The very simple answer to that is that while it was not considered as an option for a hospital, it was considered as an option for a car park that might support a hospital. That is because the site at the time, on the information that the Ministers had available to them, was just not big enough. But further work in reducing the size of the hospital - for example, providing more care in the community, providing more changes around primary care - meant that the size of the hospital was somewhat reduced and it did fit on the site. I think it was right to ask the question was it now a viable option.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Following on from that, Deputy Hilton asked when and we have just been told 22nd July. When will this Minister cut-off new sites? Because it was only about 8 or 9 weeks ago he said a new site is imminent. Now, which is true? Is this really being taken seriously and all the scoping being done and we might get an answer next year?

[14:45]

Senator A.K.F. Green:

That is somewhat disingenuous of a former Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services, who knows how difficult this job is and knows how important it is that we get the biggest project the States will ever undertake right, not just right for the people of St. Helier , but right for the people of Jersey. This is a hospital for the next 75 to 100 years and I make no apology for taking a little bit longer to think outside the box and look at the options before coming forward with our plan.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Sorry, the Minister did not answer; a lot of abuse there. I want to know when he is going to put the close date on and when this site will be considered properly.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

When the work is completed. When I have seen all the reports, when I have discussed it with my Ministerial colleagues and when I have taken it to the Council of Ministers.

4. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

As a former Deputy of the District, it will be no surprise to the Minister that there was a public outcry about this matter. Based on that and his own experiences in the District, would he consider withdrawing this as an option at this stage or not?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

No, because there will be an outcry wherever I put it. There will be an outcry if we put it in the People's Park. There will be an outcry from the residents up around Overdale. There will be an outcry if we go to the Waterfront. There will be an outcry from me if we stay on the same site and take 11 years to build a new hospital.

5. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

I am disturbed to learn that the Council of Ministers might be following the Joni Mitchell school of politics where they pave people's parks to put up a parking lot. That is what we have heard this morning. Perhaps the Minister can tell us helpfully what the minimum ballpark figure is that he is looking at for the new hospital site.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I have been asked that question so many times you would think I would remember it. I am sorry, I cannot remember the square meterage but I will let Members have it. But I like the song.

6. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier :

The Minister says he is thinking outside the box. Is he still thinking outside St. Helier when in the U.K. (United Kingdom) when new hospitals are built in out of city centres, like Derriford Hospital in Plymouth, Addenbrooke's in Cambridge, the new Royal Infirmary in Edinburgh, they are all about 4 miles outside of town, about the same distance as St. Saviour 's Hospital is from St. Helier .

Senator A.K.F. Green:

There are a number of questions there. Addenbrooke's Hospital might be 4 miles out of town, but it is actually built in the middle of a park. I have spoken to the chairman of the authority only the other day about this. St. Saviour's Hospital just is not big enough as a site. Not only would you need a site that is completely clear, if you go outside of town you will need to provide car parking similar to the size of Patriotic Street Car Park. Now, you can do that underground, if the topography allows it, or you can take up field after field after field of surface car parking. But even if you were able to do that, a hospital needs infrastructure. It needs mains sewerage, it needs proper electrical supplies, and all these things are considered when looking at a site.

7. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

Is the Minister committed to building the new hospital, if it is a new site, within the St. Helier ring road or thereabouts?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I am committed to find a site that works, that is affordable, that provides a sustainable, affordable and first-class hospital for the people of Jersey.

8. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin :

Could the Minister tell us if any incentives have been given to the Constable or the Parish of St. Helier for the possible use of the land?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I have to be fair to the Constable. We have had a telephone conversation and a meeting with the Chief Minister, so no formal negotiations have taken place, just that - in principle - we would like to look at it. We did indicate to the Constable that obviously if it did turn out that that was the best site, if that was the way to go, then obviously we know that we would need to provide an alternative park and amenity space.

9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

The Minister in answer to one of the questions said he believed that there would be an outcry wherever the new hospital was located, but I think we have seen by the outpourings of the public when the suggestion that the People's Park was under consideration that the people think that that is absolutely wrong and it should not happen. It is important green space for St. Helier, St. Helier needs more green space, not less. My question to the Minister is: the Waterfront was one of the top 3 ranked sites for the new hospital. In fact, I believe it was number one out of the top 3. Can the Minister .. sorry, Sir, I have forgotten what I was going to say. Will the Minister confirm that .. oh, I am sorry, Sir, I have completely lost my thread. I am sorry.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Social Security regarding the payment of Child Personal Care benefit:

Given that the Personal Care benefit is now determined by the child's disability rather than the parents' household income, can the Minister provide the number of children who, since 1st January 2015, have received Child Personal Care benefit level 2 and level 3 and state whether this is an increase on previous years?

Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):

I can provide the Deputy with the number of claims of Child Personal Care benefit and payment at the end of September this year. The department is currently supporting 37 claims at level 2 and 97 claims at level 3, a total of 134 claims. This is an increase of 46 on the figures for August last year before the recent changes to the law. At that time, there were 20 claims being paid at level 2 and 68 claims at level 3.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Can the Minister confirm the extra children, or the families who are claiming for the children on level 3, were getting nothing before the Assembly approved that it was on the children's disability and not the household income? I make that about 30-odd families that the department did not know about or that were receiving no money. Is that correct?

Deputy S.J. Pinel:

I do not know the exact figure of the numbers on level 3 before this came in, but the amendments to the law brought by Deputy Martin only affected level 2 claims.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

I do not believe that to be true, that last statement. However, what I do want to understand is that prior to the change in law brought by Deputy Martin, the acceptance of a level 2 or level 3 claim was based on Ministerial discretion. How many of these 97 on level 3 were subject to Ministerial discretion previously?

Deputy S.J. Pinel:

There have been a higher number than expected claims for Personal Care level 3 element, which has produced 20 entirely new claims. That is representing a £75,500 increase in cost from January to June this year.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

The Minister did not answer my question to Deputy Southern . So there were 20 children out there before the Personal Care level 3 - can she confirm this - that the department did not know about, because it was based on the household income and not how severely disabled the child was. 20 children in 9 months, is that correct?

Deputy S.J. Pinel:

That is the correct figure and these people are not necessarily on income support, so it is very difficult to know the exact numbers of households that do not come forward to claim. We only know the ones that do of Personal Care level 3 children.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Will the Minister not agree this is why we took this benefit out of income support? It is based on the child's disability. How is this Minister advertising, or talking to Health, when children with a disability are born? They should be given this information, that there is a benefit there for them. Is she not doing this?

Deputy S.J. Pinel:

The change to the law mentioned by Deputy Martin has been very widely advertised through Health and in all the schools and playgroups, nurseries. It has been very widely advertised and I think that is why there has been quite a good take-up.

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the distribution of the proceeds of economic growth:

Following the publication of the latest Measuring Jersey's Economy report, which shows that the economic standard of living in Jersey has fallen by almost a fifth since 2007, what measures, if any, will the Government be introducing to ensure that the proceeds of economic growth are fairly distributed?

Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

The latest economic figures are an indication of further recovery. Employment is growing, earnings are growing, our economy is growing. This comes after a difficult economic time with profits being hit by the global banking crisis. We now need to ensure that our recovery is sustained with standards of living rising for all Islanders of all walks of life. For me, this means supporting the strategic priorities we have outlined, the balance of budgets proposed in the Medium Term Financial Plan, more investment for health, education and a focus on jobs, productivity, innovation and enterprise. This is the best way to support our community, to ensure that we all benefit.

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Is the Deputy Chief Minister aware that, in the same period of time, the number of Islanders earning above £1 million a year has quadrupled and, if he is or is not aware of that, does he agree that it is a bad sign that Jersey is becoming a more unequal society? What does he believe the Government should be doing to rectify this?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I think the Government's role is to ensure that we have an economy that supports growth. Those people with the high earnings that the Deputy refers to are the very people that supply employment. They are the very people that ensure that we have jobs for our children, for our grandchildren. I have no problem with people working hard to improve their situation, to increase their income. Everybody should do that.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Income Distribution Survey of 2009-2010 brought out the fact that the lowest 20 per cent of the population claim 7 per cent of the income, whereas the top quintile, the top 20 per cent, claim around 50 per cent of total income. Does the Minister have any up-to-date figures on what distribution of income is involved on the Island today?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I know those figures exist, but I do not have them with me. I am quite happy to ensure that the Members get them.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

The Minister has stressed the importance of economic growth. Can I ask the Minister: bearing in mind the figures from 1998 to the present time show that we have had negative growth over that period of time, taking peaks and troughs into account, what makes him believe we are going to do better over the next few years or the next 5 years?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

My good friend the Deputy is right that we have been through a difficult time. That was not of our making. That was a global banking crisis. He fails to mention that in 2014 we saw a 10 per cent increase in benefit from the finance industry and a 5 per cent increase overall for our economy. That is a good sign. It does not mean that we are out of it yet. We have a lot of work to do, but it is a good sign, the best in Europe.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Minister did not answer the question. He chose to choose from 2008, when we went into recession. I mentioned the figures from 1998, which shows from that time, taking peaks and troughs together, Jersey's economic growth has been negative. What makes him believe it is going to be any better this time?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

As I said, we know that it was negative and lots of other economies went through the same difficult patch, but we know that 2014 are the first green shoots of economic improvement.

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

My question was actually about inequality and I do not think we have heard many answers on that subject. Could I ask him, therefore, if we accept the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel's figures that the tax rises which are going to be introduced over the next few years are going to leave families £1,000 a year worse off, could he explain how that is conducive to reducing inequality in Jersey?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I do not see how they can say that at the moment. We have not done those sums ourselves, but we do know that there are more jobs. Productivity is improving, income is increasing and we are heading in the right direction for the improvement in the economy. The best way to help people improve their situation is to reward hard work.

5. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding taxpayers funding for the provision of the public service delivered by the taxi- cab industry:

In accordance with Standing Order 106(2) and (3) I declare an interest in that my husband drives a taxi.

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, I did not hear that, Deputy .

The Deputy of Grouville :

I am sorry. In accordance with Standing Order 106(2) and (3) I declare an interest in that my husband drives a taxi.

[15:00]

How much did Jersey taxpayers pay towards the provision of the public service delivered by the taxicab industry and how much has the recent review of the taxi-cab service cost the taxpayer in U.K. consultancy fees, officer time and any other fees and expenses?

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The review of taxi-cab regulations was a requirement of the States contained within the 2010 Sustainable Transport Policy, or S.T.P. Previous to my appointment, some £57,514 was spent on consultants to investigate, review and consult upon the regulatory options with the public, the industry and specialist interest groups. In finally delivering the States S.T.P. requirement, the department has spent a further £12,143 during  my time as Minister. For Members' interest, maintenance of the taxi rank facilities is funded from general maintenance budgets and is relatively low. Routine administration of the taxicab regulations is funded by the various fees paid by the taxicab operators to D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) and so is at a net no cost to the public. While not readily quantifiable, an estimated additional £65,000 worth of unproductive officer time per year is spent in dealing with internal industry quarrels and petty complaints about one another. This is equivalent to a Grade 13 officer salary for a year. What we have done is provide a regulatory framework which addresses the customer need as identified in the 2012 Green Paper and provides a sustainable basis for the industry to move forward.

1. The Deputy of Grouville :

So there is no direct subsidy to the taxi-cab service from the public purse, unlike the bus service which costs the taxpayer £2 million. Why then does the Minister believe he can dictate and impose extra burdens and costs to an industry of self-employed people? It is surely akin to telling all banks what fare structure they have and, by the way, they all have to paint their buildings blue.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Just to pick up on the amount of subsidy that currently is paid for the bus service, it is not £2 million, it is £4 million per annum, which equates to a pound per journey. Currently, there are just over 4 million journeys carried out per year. With regard to why my department regulates the taxi service industry, that is something that the general public wants us to do. We carried out extensive consultation back in 2012. Three key areas were identified by the public. They found the current 2-tier system confusing. There was a perception that all taxi-cabs were too expensive. However, we have benchmarked the rank taxi fares and they are in line with the U.K. The third thing that the public had a concern about was the availability at peak times from both the taxi ranks and from the private hire side of the industry. During my tenure in office, we have discovered a fourth area that needs addressing and that is accessibility for those with mobility impairment. That is why we have been tasked by this Assembly to regulate this industry and that is what we are doing. We are moving away from what, historically, has been a quantitative regulation basis, i.e. restricting the numbers who can operate within the industry, and gradually moving towards a qualitative basis, thereby providing the public services that our Islanders demand.

2. The Deputy of Grouville :

Was it not the case that the U.K. consultant that was employed to do this review knew very little about the industry and identified the issue was the private hire in that they were not offering, sometimes, in some cases, the door-to-door service? I still fail to see how the Minister's proposals are going to improve a service of getting a passenger, for example, from Grouville to St. Mary , including passengers who are in wheelchairs. With his proposals they will be required to wheel themselves to the nearest rank.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

There are a number of issues there as opposed to a number of questions. To go back to the Deputy 's comment about the U.K. expert, that expert has not only provided advice to us in Jersey, he has provided advice to many local authorities, including London, in the U.K. You do not have to be a taxi driver to be able to understand the industry. With regards to making the industry more productive, which is what we are aiming to do, thereby creating greater capacity at peak times to allow individuals, for example, at 10.30 p.m. at night to get a cab from a residence in Grouville to a residence in St. Mary, we are providing that capacity by bringing the industry away from a 2-tier system that is a hybrid - because they interact and mesh against each other in a way that causes friction - to one where it will gradually migrate to a one-tier system whereby taxis will be available from ranks, taxis will be able to be hailed and taxis will be able to be called either via the phone or an app or some other device to wherever the passenger is that needs to be collected.

3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Is the Minister aware that the Taxi Drivers Association has been holding emergency meetings because of their dismay at the proposals that the Minister has come forward with? Will he agree to meet with them to talk about what elements of his proposals he may be willing to reconsider so that we can avoid any industrial action, which is something that is currently being spoken of at the moment?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I am afraid I have already beaten the Deputy to it. I have already invited the president or chair of the Taxi Drivers Association, together with other representatives, to meet me. In fact, this is a call out now to all taxi and private hire firms, drivers, et cetera. My door has been open for the last 9 months. It continues to be open. Come and see me.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Following on from the answer given by the Minister for Health and Social Services, my question to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services relates to the size and colour of the vehicles and his preference. Would he envisage, perhaps, big yellow taxis as his preferred option for Jersey?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I hope the Deputy read the paperwork that was issued a week ago. He will note that, over time, we are looking to limit the range of colours to be used by the industry to that of metallic silver, metallic greys and black. That is to provide some branding and some quality images for the Island, so our visitors know that they are getting into a taxi and that our locals know that they are getting into a taxi. It is about branding it and improving the quality of the overall service.

5. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

Looking at the review, can the Minister confirm if it did or did not happen that vehicle emissions were taken into review? I know that in the recent London review they have made it that every taxicab has to have a certain level of emissions, which is causing quite a ruckus. Was that included within this review and, if not, why not?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

No, it has not been included in this review. We put that back for a future date, mainly because we needed to make sure that there is still an adequate range of vehicles for drivers to purchase, because the majority of the drivers in this industry are owner-drivers. There are some company vehicles as well, so we are aware of the fact that we are dealing with some 400 individuals and their lives and their families' lives, so we must make the transition one that is affordable and sustainable. We have not imposed a system whereby we are looking at carbon emissions, for example, on the vehicles, but that is likely to come in due course as technology changes, as we use more hybrids or maybe all electric vehicles. That is something that will come in the future.

6. Deputy R. Labey :

As 50 per cent of cars are silver on the Island, how are the new taxis going to be distinctive? Is the idea that every taxi should be wheelchair enabled not somewhat excessive as the demand is not there?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

If I can deal with the first matter first, we are also going to be bringing forward a bonnet wrap for the vehicles to give some distinctive branding for that. We are also freeing-up the regulations whereby cab drivers can get sponsorship for their vehicles and generate some additional income for them in that respect. I am afraid I have forgotten the last part of my good colleague Deputy Labey 's question.

Deputy R. Labey :

About enabling all cabs to be wheelchair enabled is excessive because the demand is not there.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Thank you. This is something that has come up in our research since I became a Minister and, indeed, at the Members' briefing a week ago, the Deputy of St. Mary commented that one of his parishioners had mentioned to him that they tried to book a disabled taxi to take them to an appointment and the earliest they could get was just before Christmas. We have many examples over the last 9 months of feedback from the public that shows that the accessibility is not working. There are only around 10 per cent of the current taxi fleet, both private hire and rank taxis, that are wheelchair friendly. Let us remind Members that by the end of 2018, under Social Security, we will be bringing forward the final tranches of the Island's anti-discrimination legislation and what we are proposing is to ensure that all our Island taxis conform to the spirit of that legislation and, therefore, are 100 per cent accessible for all Islanders. Currently, those disabled people, who wish to have a taxi to pick them up from their home and take them to an appointment, have to effectively get a private hire vehicle. Those fares are higher than rank fares currently. That is not right because by the mere fact of being disabled you are being penalised by having to book the most expensive part of the industry's offering and that is not right. It does not look like we will get drivers in sufficient quantities to volunteer to have disabled vehicles and, therefore, it is only fair that we have a blanket requirement across the piece, so no drivers are advantaged or disadvantaged.

7. The Deputy of Grouville :

Does the Minister realise that making it one system, as well as having C.I.C.R.A. (Channel Islands Competition and Regulatory Authorities) issues, is going to exacerbate the lack of cabs - because I think the Minister is getting confused between the 2 - offering door-to-door service in country Parishes as everyone will be waiting in town at peak times?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Just simple economics tells you that if all of the vehicles currently, be they taxis or cabs, congregated on the ranks it would spread those existing businesses too thinly. By creating one industry we are providing greater flexibility and allowing for greater productivity to come out of the industry. What C.I.C.R.A. would like us to do was to deregulate completely. I had a long telephone conversation with the chairman over the weekend and his opinion was that we should not have any .. that taxi drivers should be treated the same way as hairdressers are, or any other shop retailers, or whatever, there should not be any barriers to entry. I believe that is not right, I believe that we should have some quality barriers to entry, we should have our drivers D.B.S. (Disclosure and Barring Service) checked, they should be in the appropriate vehicles and with the appropriate training for the people that they carry in those vehicles. They should also be our ambassadors for picking up people from the airport and from the harbours. So, I believe that we should have a quality regulation, but I do not support the other side of the coin where C.I.C.R.A. believe that we should just open up and take away all boundaries to the industry. I think that would kill off the industry and adversely - seriously adversely - affect those 400 individuals that are currently working within it.

6. Deputy R. Labey of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding progress made in the prevention of the widespread abuse by non-residents of parking spaces specifically allotted to tenants of housing association properties:

Will the Minister update the Assembly on any progress made with the initiative he announced in June for powers to be put in place to prevent the widespread abuse by non-residents of parking spaces specifically allotted to tenants of un-gated housing association properties, including those of Andium Homes?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I did advise Members in June that the Home Affairs Department was looking at this issue. As such, this question would really have been better addressed to my colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs. Having said that, I am informed that good progress has been made between Home Affairs and T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) and that law drafting instructions have been approved to make wheel clamping illegal and to introduce a form of civil penalty notice system where a car has been parked on private land without authorisation. Beyond that, I feel that any further detail or information should most appropriately be provided by the Minister for Home Affairs. Thank you.

1. Deputy R. Labey :

I am interested to know if the Minister for Treasury and Resources is in favour of a new civil penalty system with all that that would entail, new legislation, more expensive bureaucracy, potentially more civil servants to administer it, rather than another solution, quicker solution, which might be a tow truck or the installation of card or code barriers or sit-up, lie-down, bollards?

[15:15]

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

The Deputy will know that the Minister for Treasury and Resources is not keen on extra layers of bureaucracy or cost, of course, and the detail will need to be fully assessed. I am sure the Minister for Home Affairs and the department have been looking very closely at the proposals they are bringing forward. The Deputy raises the point about additional barriers. There are a significant number of premises, some of course do already have, as I understand it, roller shutter doors, some have barrier systems, but to introduce such systems across all premises would, in itself, be a significant cost as well. I am sure that Andium Homes raised that as a point. Certainly, it is nothing that they have raised with me in a recent meeting that I had with them as being of particular concern.

2. Deputy R. Labey :

When tenants have provision of a parking space in their tenancy agreement, should the landlord not be doing something to ensure that that space is kept for them? A civil penalty system is not going to help chasing down foreign vehicles, who are the main offenders here, and I would just like to point out to the Minister that the situation has got worse, I am told, since June when I first brought it up with him.

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

On the final point the Deputy makes, that is of interest, because I did specifically ask officers whether indeed there had been any deterioration or whether there are any updated figures with regard to offences, and I was told that there had not been an increase in numbers, although it was raised as a point with me that Andium felt in particular that it was not helpful this point had been raised in this forum, because now anybody thinking about abusing the system is now freely of the knowledge that there is no effective way of policing such matters. So that, in itself, is a point that they had been concerned about. With regard to civil penalties, yes, there are certain drawbacks but, as the Deputy has pointed out, under the tenancy arrangements, providing the vehicles are those belonging to tenants, there are certain provisions and powers that do exist in order to be able to remove the vehicles or certainly encourage their removal and ensure there is not a misuse of the spaces available and allocated.

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the reasons for the fall in the standard of living in Jersey since 2007:

What explanation does the Chief Minister have for the results given in table 8 of the Statistics Unit's publication Measuring Jersey's Economy: G.V.A. (Gross Value Added) and G.D.P. (Gross Domestic Product) 2014 which shows that the standard of living in Jersey has fallen by 19 per cent since 2007, and why Guernsey in particular has done so much better over the same period?

Senator A.K.F. Green ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

That is a really interesting question and it is quite natural, I think, to compare ourselves with our neighbours, Guernsey, but our economy is not the same, nor are our finance sectors. We have a large banking sector and, therefore, our headline economic statistics have not performed well during the banking crisis. However, if you exclude the financial services profits and just look at the earnings across our economy and non-banking profits, our economy has performed in line with both Guernsey and the United Kingdom. As alluded to earlier, with short shoots-of-green shoots, last year we did significantly better. We are now seeing economic growth. We are seeing earnings grow and we are seeing employment grow. Our task, as I said earlier, is to make sure that our recovery is sustained, delivering improvements in standards for all Islanders, and to do this we need to support our strategic priorities in the Medium Term Financial Plan.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Surely it is not a matter of stripping out the banking sector, the standard of living in Jersey has fallen by almost 20 per cent. What he has not addressed is the fact that the standard of living has fallen over this period, whereas Guernsey's has gone up.

Senator A.K.F. Green:

The Deputy asked me to explain how our figures were different to Guernsey and I did that. I did that very clearly. When you look at the economy, outside of the finance sector, we performed very well with our competitors. We are in a different finance sector to Guernsey certainly and that is why we were different. But 2014 we performed better than our competitors.

The Bailiff :

Sorry, Minister, did you say "short shoots-of-green shoots", did I hear that correctly?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I was trying to weave short and shoots together, Sir. Short green shoots.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Minister is missing the point; the point is living standards in the Island have fallen by almost 20 per cent. That means that people in this Island are worse off because of, you could say, the recession, but our recession has been longer and part of it has been caused by government policy. The question is, how can he explain why people in Guernsey are better off? The people in Jersey are 20 per cent worse off, not just because of banking. There are a whole host of reasons why they are worse off and the policies that are being pursued by the Council of Ministers are making it worse. Does the Minister agree and explain why, please, at the same time?

Senator A.K.F. Green:

I have already explained why I do not agree. I was asked to explain the difference between our figures and Guernsey's. I have clearly explained that and, as I said, if you look at 2014, 10 per cent growth overall, 5 per cent consolidated, far better than anything that anybody else in Europe has done.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

A supplementary? The Minister is using some of the stats in a way that confuses. The economic growth figures for 2014 could well be a one-off. The Fiscal Policy Panel has said that going forward it expects economic growth to be zero. Right, so in other words we are going to get the first boost out of the recession 2014, but there is a danger of it going further down. Also, can the Minister explain whether it was any one-off banking items caused the particular banking figures to be higher and therefore the economic growth to be higher?