States Meeting Transcript - 15th November 2016

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 15th NOVEMBER 2016

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................6 The Bailiff :......................................................................................6

1.1 Filming of proceedings on Wednesday, 23rd November 2016 – retirement of H.E. The Lieutenant Governor.....................................................................6

PETITIONS.......................................................................................6

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier – presentation of a petition in relation to the funding of Family Nursing and Home Care..............................................6

2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................6

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

3. Written Questions........................................................................6

Deputy G.P. Southern :.........................................................................6

1. DEPUTY J.M. MAÇON OF ST. SAVIOUR OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE TAKING OF BREAH SAMPLES FROM PERSONS UNDER THE AGE OF 18: [9700]......................................................................7
2. DEPUTY P.D. MCLINTON OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING A SCHEME FOR THE REPORTING OF MOTOR COLLISIONS WITH DOMESTIC CATS: [9701].............................7
3. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDRÉ OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION REGARDING THE PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT AND PRIVATE-SECTOR NURSERY PROVIDERS: [9702].........8
4. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDRÉ OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING TRAFFIC DATA FOR CERTAIN ROADS IN ST. LAWRENCE: [9703]................................................................9
5. THE DEPUTY OF GROUVILLE OF THE MINISTER FOR EXTERNAL RELATIONS REGARDING THE BREXIT WORKING GROUP: [9704].............25
6. SENATOR S.C. FERGUSON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE DEPARTMENT'S USE OF AGENCY SOCIAL WORKERS: [9705]....................................................................26
7. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING TELEVISION LICENCES FOR RESIDENTS OVER 75: [9706]......................30

8. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING THE SITE OF THE FORMER SWIMMING POOL AT FORT REGENT: [9707]....................................................31
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING APPLICATIONS FOR INCOME SUPPORT PERSONAL CARE COMPONENT LEVEL 4: [9708] ..............................................34
10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING MEASURES TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF OVER- AND UNDER-PAYMENTS IN INCOME SUPPORT: [9709].........................34
11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE RESPONSE TO RECOMMENDATION 10 OF LIVING ON LOW INCOME' (S.R.4/2016): [9710]...................................36
12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE DEGREE OF SUCCESS IN REDUCING POVERTY: [9711]..................................................................................37
13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE FUNDING OF HOME CARE: [9712] 39

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................40

1. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen of the Minister for Social Security regarding the provision of information relating to people with a zero-hours contract: [9717].......40

Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................40

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................40
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................41
3. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................41
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................41
5. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................41

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture regarding the grant provided to the Jersey Rugby Club: [9713] ........42

Senator L.J. Farnham (The Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture):

.........................................................................................42

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................42
2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:.......................................................42
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................43
7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................44

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the level of personal information required of Islanders by Jersey banks: [9718]............................44

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):................................44

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................45
2. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:..................................................45

3. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John:........................................................46
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................46
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................47
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................47

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding statements made during a Scrutiny Panel hearing in relation to the use of food banks: (9719) .........48

Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................48

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................48
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................48
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................49
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................49
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................50

5. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the site being proposed for the new Hospital: [9699] ...........................................50

Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................50

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................50
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................51
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................51
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................52

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding progress towards making the incitement of racial hatred a crime in Jersey: [9715]................................52 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter (The Minister for Home Affairs):............................52

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................52

2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................53
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................53
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................53

7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Chief Minister regarding the potential publication of registers of beneficial ownership of companies: [9716] ................................54

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................54

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................54
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................54
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................55
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................55
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................55

6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................56
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................57

8. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the laundry services at the Hospital: [9714]................................................57

Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................57 4.8.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................57

9. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding he effect of recent changes in benefits policy on the use of food banks: [9720]............................58

Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................58

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................58
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................59
3. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................59
4. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement:......................................................59

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................59
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................60
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................60

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for External Relations.........60

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................60 Senator P.M. Bailhache (The Minister for External Relations):...............................60

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................60
   2. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................61

1. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................61
2. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................62
   3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................62

5.3.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................62

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................62
5. Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade : ....................................................63
6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................63
7. Deputy S.M. Brée:......................................................................63

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Chief Minister............................64

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................64 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................64
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................64

6.2.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................65

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................65

6.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................66

4. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................66
5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................66
6. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................66
7. Deputy G.J. Truscott:...................................................................67
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................67

6.8.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................67

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................68

7. The Assistant Chief Minister - statement regarding television licences for people aged over 75 ...................................................................................68

7.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Chief Minister):.......................................68

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................68

8. Bailiff of Jersey: cessation of dual role and appointment of an elected Speaker of the States (P.54/2016) - as amended.........................................................68

1. Bailiff of Jersey: cessation of dual role and appointment of an elected Speaker of the States (P.54/2016) - reference to the Privileges and Procedures Committee under Standing Order 77A.....................................................................69

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................69
2. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement:.................................................70
3. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................70
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................71
5. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................72

6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................72
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................72
8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................74
9. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................74
10. Deputy S.M. Brée: ..................................................................74
11. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................75
12. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................75
13. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................76
14. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................78

2. Bailiff of Jersey: cessation of dual role and appointment of an elected Speaker of the States (P.54/2016) - resumption.........................................................80

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................80

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................83 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................84

Deputy M. Tadier : ............................................................................84

2. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................90
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................91
4. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:...........................................92
5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................93
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................95
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................97
8. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John : ....................................................98
9. Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour:.....................................98
10. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................99
11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................99
12. Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity :...............................................104
13. The Deputy of St. Ouen:............................................................105
14. The Connétable of St. Helier:......................................................106
15. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..............................................................107
16. Deputy S.M. Brée: .................................................................110
17. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ..............................................................112
18. Senator P.M. Bailhache :............................................................115
19. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.............................................................116
20. Deputy J.M. Maçon:................................................................116
21. Deputy D.P. McLinton of St. Saviour:..............................................117
22. The Connétable of St. Mary : .......................................................118
23. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:.....................................................120
24. Deputy M. Tadier :..................................................................122 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):....................................................126

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................127

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

The Bailiff :

1.1 Filming of proceedings on Wednesday, 23rd November 2016 – retirement of H.E. The Lieutenant Governor

First of all, under A, I perhaps could ask if the Assembly would kindly agree to filming of the Assembly's proceedings on Wednesday in just over 2 weeks' time. That will be the occasion when the States will be sitting for the last occasion with His Excellency and it would be appropriate to have the film crews in the Chamber, if Members agree. Thank you. I might also note that following the special meeting on that day His Excellency and Lady McColl will move to the Royal Square where there will be a guard of honour. They will say farewell to States Members and members of the Court and indeed the general public. So anyone who is listening to the broadcast now, all are very welcome to come to the Royal Square in order to say farewell to His Excellency and Lady McColl.

PETITIONS

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier – presentation of a petition in relation to the funding of Family Nursing and Home Care

2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

It is a great pleasure to present this petition which is designed to protect those recipients of home care. It may not be needed in the long run. It may all work out well, nonetheless I present it. There will be a proposition following it.

The Bailiff :

And you make the proposition with it, Deputy ? You have lodged a proposition, have you? It has not yet been lodged? I am told by the Greffier it has been lodged, in which case it probably ought to be referred to the Minister for a report within the next 8 weeks. It is so referred.

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions Deputy G.P. Southern :

Sir, if I may, could I ask for clarification of the Chair as to why my question to the Minister for Housing about the actions of Andium was not allowed to be asked even though it fitted the criteria, I believe, of an urgent question. I understand that your ruling was there is nobody responsible in this department for running our social housing through Andium.

The Bailiff :

My understanding, Deputy , was that you had accepted that the Minister was not responsible for operational matters, which was the subject of your question, and that was why the question was disallowed. Not that it was not regarded as an urgent question but just that the Minister for Housing did not have responsibility for operational matters in relation to Andium.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

In which case, I would ask for clarification as to who in this Assembly is responsible for the provision of social housing and the regulations that bind it? Who should I be asking who has the responsibility for what Andium does, because that is our supply of social housing. Now if no one is accountable for their actions I have no ability to question what is going on.

The Bailiff :

Depending on how you frame your question it may be possible to get a question allowed for the Chief Minister.

1. DEPUTY J.M. MAÇON OF ST. SAVIOUR OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE TAKING OF BREAH SAMPLES FROM PERSONS UNDER THE AGE OF 18: [9700]

Question

Will H.M. Attorney General explain under which Law, Regulation or Order it is lawful for the States of Jersey Police to take a breath sample from a person under the age of 18 with no responsible adult being present?

Answer

The power to require a person to undergo a breath test is found in Article 29 of the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law, 1956. This provision includes roadside breath tests. Article 30 of the same Law gives a police officer investigating a suspected offence under Articles 27 (driving when under influence of drink or drugs) or 28 (driving or being in charge of a motor vehicle with alcohol concentration above prescribed limit) the power to require a person to provide either two specimens of breath, or one of blood or urine. Requirements under this provision must be made at a police station. In the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law, 1956, "person" is undefined and therefore has its normal meaning, which includes persons under the age of 18 years.

The protection afforded to persons under the age of 18 when they come into contact with the police derive from the Codes made pursuant to Article 63 of the Police Procedures and Criminal Evidence (Jersey) Law 2003. Code C regulates the detention, treatment and questioning of persons by police officers. It applies only to persons in police detention, defined as those persons who have been arrested and taken to a police station, and those who have been arrested while at the police station (introduction to Code C). Code C does not, therefore, apply to roadside tests under Article 29, or to any tests under Article 29 or 30 that are required prior to a person being arrested.

Where a juvenile has been arrested and is in police detention for the purposes of Code C, certain protections apply. Paragraph 1.5 of Code C provides that "If anyone appears to be under the age of 18 then he or she shall be treated as a juvenile for the purposes of this Code in the absence of clear evidence that he or she is older." The protection afforded to juveniles includes the right to have an appropriate adult present during interview (Section 13 of Code C). However, procedures under Articles 27 or 28 do not constitute "interviewing" for the purposes of Code C (Note 6D) and therefore the requirement that an appropriate adult be present does not apply. (Articles 27 and 28 are referred to as Articles 16 and 16A in the Code as the Code has not been updated to reflect the renumbering that occurred when the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law, 1956 was revised, the renumbering details may be found in the table at the end of the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law, 1956.)

2. DEPUTY P.D. MCLINTON OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING A SCHEME FOR THE REPORTING OF MOTOR COLLISIONS WITH DOMESTIC CATS: [9701]

Question

What progress, if any, has been made towards the introduction of a scheme (whether in law or as a public awareness campaign) asking motorists to report to an authority if they are involved in a collision with a domestic cat; and will the Minister provide a timeline for this work and an expected completion date?

Answer

My officers have undertaken a significant amount of work looking into this matter and assessing how best cats might be protected and catered for within the available legislative instruments. This work has involved discussion and consultation with Law Drafting Officers, the States' Police, States' Vet and the Jersey Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, as well as, reviews of the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law 1956, Animal Welfare (Jersey) Law 2004 and the Highway Code, and UK legislation. At present neither the Highway Code nor the Road Traffic Law provide for any action to be taken in the event of an accident to a cat. I believe for any meaningful action to taken, the changes must put the welfare of cats and their owners at the centre and avoid unnecessary burdensome bureaucracy or liabilities over the control of cats.

The outcome I seek is that motorists be made aware of their responsibility to report an accident, so that veterinary care can be provided as soon as possible and records are made so that owners can be reunited with their pet. Unfortunately, achieving this is not as simple as adding cats to the list of animals in the existing law, because that would bring with it an unnecessary burden on owners (in terms of controlling animals) and on the States and honorary police who would be obliged to attend incidents. Such a change in legislation would neither respect the nature of cats to roam without liability, nor provide any additional welfare protection as the police are not in the position to offer veterinary care or track owners without a register of cats. It could also be counter productive should a motorist be reluctant to contact the police.

However, the relevant Articles of the Highway Code, which is referenced in Road Traffic Law, will be amended to include a provision that if a motorist is involved in an accident or incident causing harm, damage, injury or death to a cat that they should inform the Animal Shelter without delay. This would allow a pet ambulance to be dispatched to the scene as quickly as possible, to allow veterinary care to be provided and records to made so that the owner can be reunited with their pet. This would support existing provisions of the Animal Welfare law, "to avoid cruelty and unnecessary suffering to animals" in which a definition of cats is included.

My officers have prepared a suitable amendment to the Highway Code, and are proceeding with ordering a stock of the amended code. Once the Code is distributed, this will be accompanied by an Island-wide publicity campaign. These actions will be completed before the end of this year.

3. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDRÉ OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION REGARDING THE PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT AND PRIVATE-SECTOR NURSERY PROVIDERS: [9702]

Question

Will the Minister advise whether it has been agreed by the Department with private-sector nursery providers that the Partnership Agreement is no longer fit for purpose and that a new Partnership Agreement will need to be negotiated and in place by the end of 2016 and, if so, will the Minister confirm whether or not negotiations between the Department and private-sector nursery providers have started and, if so, on which dates meetings have taken place; and if they have not started, will the Minister explain the reason for the delay?

Is it still the intention of the Department to have a new Partnership Agreement in place by the end of the year?

Answer

Meetings with private sector nursery representatives were delayed because of the Medium Term Financial Plan and the impending debate of Amendment 4. The meetings, which are discretionary, have been rescheduled and the first is due to take place on 17th November. One of the items to be discussed is an update of the Nursery Education Fund partnership agreement. The agreement is essentially still fit for purpose although some revisions are required to reflect recent changes in early years.

4. DEPUTY J.A.N. LE FONDRÉ OF ST. LAWRENCE OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING TRAFFIC DATA FOR CERTAIN ROADS IN ST. LAWRENCE: [9703]

Question

Will the Minister provide the hourly traffic flow data for the following roads (in both directions) between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. (splitting between week days and weekends where possible); or, if hourly data is not available, the data that is?

1. Bottom of Mont Felard
2. Grande Route de St Laurent (in the vicinity ofthe Parish Hall )
3. Grande Route de St Laurent by Carrefour Selous
4. Les Chenolles de Six Rues (by Six Roads)
5. Top end of Rue de la Frontière
6. Top end of Rue de la Mare Ballam
7. Rue des Buttes (West end)
8. Route de St Jean (in the St John's Village area)

Where data is available based on different times in the year, will the Minister also provide data for different seasons and, where possible, during and outside of school holidays?

Where there is no match for the specific location indicated, will the Minister provide data that is nearest on the road requested to the location identified?

Answer

The Department holds traffic count data for permanent monitoring sites on La Grande Route de St Lawrence by St Lawrence Church and on La Grande Route des Issues on the east side of St John's Village. As each data sheet provides one week's data and at St Lawrence the data for each direction is separate, those two sites alone for two directions of travel would total 156 pages of data. I have therefore provided sample data for a winter school term time week and a summer school holiday week. Other sample data is provided where it is available, in the form of speed and volume counts that have been recorded with mobile temporary counters. Should Deputy Le Fondré require a more comprehensive list I would ask him to contact me at the Department for Infrastructure and I will arrange for the data to be provided electronically.