States Meeting Transcript - 26th September 2017

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 26th SEPTEMBER 2017

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................7

1. The Deputy Bailiff :........................................................................7

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................7

2. Resignation of Deputy Andrew David Lewis of St. Helier as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee......................................................................7

3. Appointment of Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee..........................7

3.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : ..............................................7

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

4. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING MEETINGS HELD WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE UNION OF MYANMAR: [1(495)]......................................................7
2. DEPUTY J.M. MAÇON OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE TREATMENT OF HIV: [1(496)]............8
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING RENTAL FIGURES FOR 1- AND 2-BEDROOM FLATS AND 3- BEDROOM HOUSES: [1(497)].........................................................8
4. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE RESOURCING OF THE LAW DRAFTSMAN'S OFFICE: [1(498)]..............9
5. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES OWNED BY STATES DEPARTMENTS: [1(499)]..................................................10
6. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ATTENDENCE AT POLITICAL PARTY CONFERENCES IN THE UNITED KINGDOM; [1(500)] ..................................................................12
7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING INITIATIVES FUNDED BY THE ECONOMIC AND PRODCTIVITY GROWTH DRAWDOWN PROVISION: [1(501)].....................................13
8. DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHAIRMEN'S COMMITTEE REGARDING THE BUDGET FOR THE SCRUTINY FUNCTION: [1(502)]..................................................................14
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING BODIES CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN THE DELIVERY OF HOME CARE SERVICES: [1(503)]............................15
10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE OWNERSHIP OF COMPANIES OPERATING IN JERSEY AND THE REVENUES RECEIVED FROM THEM IN TAX: [1(504)]......................15

11. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING HOSPITALS AND MEDICAL CENTRES USED BY THE STATES OF JERSEY PRISON SERVICE: [1(505)].........................17
12. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE MONITORING OF STAFF MORALE: [1(506)]................................................................................18
13. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE INVESTIGATION OF COMPLAINTS AGAINST SENIOR STAFF IN HIS DEPARTMENT: [1(508)]........................18

5. Oral Questions...........................................................................19

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade of the Chief Minister regarding the Chief Minister's policy position on a referendum for the role of the Speaker: [1(522)]...................19 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................19

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................19
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................20
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................20

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................20
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................20
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................21
7. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................21
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:.......................................................21
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................22

2. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen of H.M. (Her Majesty) Attorney General regarding contracts of sale and purchase passed before the Royal Court: [1(516)] ................22 Mr. M.H. Temple Q.C., H.M. Solicitor General (Rapporteur):................................22

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................22
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................23
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................23
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................23
5. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:.......................................................23
6. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................24

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding rent control measures: [1(520)]................................................................................24 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Housing):....................................24

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................25
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................25
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................26

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................26
7. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................26
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................26
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27

4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Infrastructure regarding a reduction in the cleaning of States roads: [1(515)]................................................27 Deputy E.J. Noel (The Minister for Infrastructure):...........................................27

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................27
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
6. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................28
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................29
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................29
9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................29
10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................30
11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:..................................................30
12. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................30
13. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................31

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for the Environment regarding the environmental impact of the residential properties planned for development around the Ann Court area of town: [1(524)].......................................................................31 Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (The Minister for the Environment):.........................31

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................32
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................33

6. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour of the Chairman of the States Employment Board regarding the continued employment of the former Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police: [1(512)] ........................................................................33 Senator A.K.F. Green (Chairman, States EmploymentBoard):...............................33

5.6.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................33

7. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the Jersey Electricity plc's Standby Charge: [1(510)]...................................33 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................34

1. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................34
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
4. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................35
5. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................35
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................36
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................36
8. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................36

8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the operational control of the States of Jersey Police: [1(514)]..................................................37 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter (The Minister for Home Affairs):............................37

5.8.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................37

9. Deputy J.M. Maçon of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the extensionofthe loan repayment period by the States of Jersey Development Company: [1(521)].37 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................37

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................38
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38
5. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................39

10. The Deputy of Grouville of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding Jersey Electricity plc's provision of a backup service to embedded generators: [1(511)].......39 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................39

1. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................39

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................40
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................40
4. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................40
5. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................41

11. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding proposals to adopt Jèrriais as one of the official languages of the States Assembly, alongside English and French: [1(523)].....................................41 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):...41

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................42

12. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the calculations of the annual and quarterly contribution factors in respect of claiming sickness benefit compared to other benefits such as the maternity grant: [1(519)]........................43 Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................43
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44

6. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Health and Social Services44

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................44 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................44
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................45
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................45
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................45

6.5.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................46

6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................46

6.6.1 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................46

7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................47

6.7.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................47

8. Deputy G.J. Truscott:...................................................................47
9. Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity :...................................................47
10. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................48

6.10.1 The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................48

7. Questions to Ministers without Notice - the Chief Minister............................48

1. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................48 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................48
2. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary:........................................................49

7.2.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................49

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
4. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................49

7.4.1 The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................49

5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................50
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50

7.6.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50

7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

7.7.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................51
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................52

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................52

8. Draft Education (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.56/2017)..................52

8.1 Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier (The Minister for Education):........................52

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................53
2. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................53

9. United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child: compliance of draft Laws and training of States of Jersey employees (P.63/2017) - as amended......................54

9.1 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................55

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................56
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................57
3. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................59
4. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................59
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................60
6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................60

10. Draft Act annulling the Motor Traffic (Cabs - Fares and Charges) (Jersey) Order 2017 (P.64/2017) .........................................................................62

10.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................62

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................66 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................66

Senator S.C. Ferguson: .......................................................................66

1. Deputy R.J. Rondel:.................................................................68
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................70
3. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................72
4. Deputy G.J. Truscott:................................................................74
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................74
6. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:.................................................76
7. Deputy E.J. Noel:....................................................................76
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................81
9. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................82
10. Deputy K.C. Lewis : ..............................................................84
11. Deputy S.M. Brée: ................................................................84
12. Senator I.J. Gorst : ................................................................85
13. The Deputy of Trinity : ............................................................87
14. The Deputy of St. Martin : ........................................................88
15. Senator S.C. Ferguson:............................................................88

11. Jersey Financial Services Commission: appointment of Commissioner (P.70/2017)..90 [Debate proceeded in camera] ................................................................90
    12. Draft Statutory Nuisances (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.71/2017)......................91

12.1 The Deputy of St. Martin (The Minister for the Environment):.........................91

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................92
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................93
3. Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour:..................................93
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................93
5. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................94
6. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................95

13. States Assembly: selection and appointment of Ministers, Committees and Panels - return to secret ballots (P.73/2017)......................................................97

13.1 Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:..........................................................97

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................102

[9:33]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Deputy Bailiff :

On behalf of Members I would like to welcome His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor to the Chamber this morning. [Approbation] In the Bailiff 's gallery above me, I would also like to welcome Mr. Akbar Khan, who is the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. [Approbation] That concludes matters under A.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Resignation of Deputy Andrew David Lewis of St. Helier as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee

The Deputy Bailiff :

In accordance with Standing Order 133(2), Deputy Andrew Lewis of St. Helier has given written notice to the Bailiff of his resignation as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

3. Appointment of Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee The Deputy Bailiff :

In accordance with Standing Order 119 I therefore invite nominations for candidates for the position of chairman of that committee.

3.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : Could I propose the Connétable of St. John ?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? If there are no other nominations then I declare the Connétable of St. John has been appointed as the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

4. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING MEETINGS HELD WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE UNION OF MYANMAR: [1(495)]

Question

What communications or meetings, if any, have taken place over the last five years between government of Jersey members and officials and representatives of the government of the Republic of the Union of Myanmar?

Answer

There have been no communications or meetings over the last five years between the Government of Jersey, its members, officials and representatives of the government of the Republic of the Union of Myanmar.

2. DEPUTYJ.M.MAÇONOFST.SAVIOUROFTHEMINISTERFORHEALTHAND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE TREATMENT OF HIV: [1(496)]

Question

Following the decision of NHS Scotland to pay for pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) as an effective preventative treatment of HIV, what review, if any, has been undertaken into Jersey adopting a similar policy; and if there has been no such review, will the Minister explain why not?

Answer

Jersey has not adopted a similar policy to Scotland.

The Director of Infection Prevention and Control/Consultant for Infectious Diseases has reviewed the position in Jersey which can be summarised as follows:

PrEP stands for pre exposure prophylaxis. It means an HIV negative person taking anti HIV drugs before exposure to HIV to prevent acquisition of HIV. The only drug licensed for this is Truvada. The license is only for continuous use rather than on demand/ad hoc use.

NICE has summarised 4 trials. These show an efficacy of 44-86% compared with placebo. All trials were part of a package including early treatment of HIV, additional risk reduction including condom use and regular screening of those receiving prophylaxis.

Side effects include gastrointestinal symptoms, headache, dizziness and after 2 years the potential for bone and kidney problems.

The NHS is recruiting 10,000 individuals in a £10 million real-life study to look at uptake, adherence, drug resistance, sexual behaviour, prioritization for prophylaxis and cost-effectiveness. Concern about altered sexual behaviour is likely to be mitigated by the ongoing support and regular screening for sexually transmitted infections including HIV.

We interact closely with England at population and medical levels and are closely following this expanded study with a view to pursuing any recommendations at its conclusion.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING RENTAL FIGURES FOR 1- AND 2-BEDROOM FLATS AND 3- BEDROOM HOUSES: [1(497)]

Question

Given that a recent update to the website of Andium Homes showed the average rent for 1-bedroom flats, 2-bedroom flats and 3-bedroom houses as being £167.42, £215.74 and £313.41 respectively, and further to answers previously provided by the Minister, in which it was stated that the average rents shown are based on a mix of pre-2014 tenancies and post-2014 tenancies (and that, overall, the average rent levels paid by Andium tenants are 77 per cent of the market value), will the Minister request from Andium Homes confirmation of what the average rents are for pre- and post- 2014 tenancies, if they were to be treated separately, for these three types of unit?

Will the Minister also request and provide figures for the maximum private sector rent levels for these three types of unit (and what the 90 per cent rent level for these units are) in order to show how they compare with the maximum rent levels shown on the website for these units of £254.07, £303.79 and £439.80 respectively?

Answer

The average weekly rents for Andium Homes' pre- and post- 1 July 2014 tenancies (in respect of one and two bedroom flats, and three bedroom houses) are as follows:-

It should be noted that the average rent for a three bedroom house is £274.26 and not £313.41 as indicated in the Deputy 's question. The £313.41 figure relates to the average rent for a three bedroom bungalow.

The Statistics Unit publishes the Jersey Private Sector Rental Index on a quarterly basis, which is based on advertised rents rather opposed to what tenants might actually pay following negotiation. In Quarter 2 2017, the average rents for qualified rented accommodation were as follows:-

Jersey House Price Index –

Type of property Average weekly rents for private

rented accommodation (Quarter 2 2017)

1 bedroom flat £228.46 2 bedroom flat £399.23 3 bedroom house £496.15

When comparing average private sector rent levels to the Andium Homes maximum rent levels, it must be noted that those quoted on the website relate to individual properties and are skewed by outliers, where the rental value will be affected by such factors as the size or location of an individual property and will not, therefore, reflect average rents in the private rented sector.

Andium Homes would welcome an opportunity to meet with Deputy Southern in order to explain how rents are determined and answer in detail any questions he might have.

4. DEPUTY S.Y. MÉZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE RESOURCING OF THE LAW DRAFTSMAN'S OFFICE: [1(498)]

Question

Following reports in the Independent Jersey Care Inquiry Report' (R.59/2017) of claims that, historically,  finance-industry-related  legislation  was  prioritised  above  legislation  relating  to children's  services,  what  consideration,  if  any,  has  been  given  to  the  resourcing  of  the  Law Draftsman's Office and what plans, if any, does the Chief Minister have to ensure that adequate provisions  are  in  place  to  enable  Jersey  to  develop  finance  legislation  simultaneously  to  the advancement of important social legislation faster than has been done previously?

Will the Chief Minister advise what consideration has been given to requiring the Law Draftsman's Office to record how much time it spends on different categories of legislation?

Answer

There is a substantial programme of social legislation underway, dealing with housing and care standards, charities, marriage reform, mental health and capacity, and criminal justice. There are more policy officers employed to develop the various strands of social legislation than financial and the  resources  of  the  Law  Draftsman's  Office  are  monitored  to  ensure drafters  can  respond effectively and quickly to prevailing policy priorities.

Legislation  can  take  longer  than  expected,  generally  because  of  the  time  required  to  resolve technical and legal complexities, challenging policy issues, or changing priorities. Developing draft legislation is a collaborative effort that requires sufficient policy capacity as well as law drafting resources.

The establishment of Community and Constitutional Affairs has improved the coordination of policy development across government by combining different policy officers into one department. Building this capacity is a more effective way to deliver both social and financial legislation than using a time recording system.

The Care Inquiry recommended that the Island should develop a more effective mechanism for developing legislation, policy and practice for children and young people. The policy capacity of government  is  likely  to  need  to  expand  to  address  this  need,  and  this  will  feature  in  the Government's forthcoming response to the Care Inquiry's main recommendations.

5. DEPUTY  S.Y. MÉZEC  OF ST.  HELIER  OF THE  MINISTER  FOR INFRASTRUCTURE  REGARDING  RESIDENTIAL  PROPERTIES  OWNED  BY STATES DEPARTMENTS: [1(499)]

Question

Will  the  Minister  provide  the  total  number  of  residential  properties  owned  by  each  States Department, and state how many are currently unoccupied?

Answer

The Public owns the freehold interest of 185 residential properties.

These properties are owned by the Public, rather than individual departments, and are held on the balance sheets of the Department for Infrastructure and relevant Special Funds.

The properties can be classified by departmental use as follows:

Community and Constitutional Affairs 19 EDTS&C - Sport 3 Education 15 (4 Vacant) Health and Social Services  82 (12 Vacant) Infrastructure 2 (1 Vacant) Office of the Lieutenant Governor 7

Infrastructure Other

Freehold interest in 99 Year Leaseholds 42

Let to Health and Social Services Clients  9

Let to Community and Constitutional Affairs Clients 1

Let to third parties/staff accommodation  5 (2 Vacant) Total 185

Details of these properties are set out in the attached table.

There are presently 19 residential units that are unoccupied and can be classified as follows: Awaiting imminent disposal 7

Awaiting refurbishment 4

Currently being refurbished to be re-let 3

Future educational use under consideration 2

Recently vacated, pending re-let imminently 3

6. DEPUTY  S.Y. MÉZEC  OF  ST.  HELIER  THE  CHIEF  MINISTER  REGARDING ATTENDENCE  AT POLITICAL  PARTY  CONFERENCES  IN  THE  UNITED KINGDOM; [1(500)]

Question

Will  the  Chief  Minister  confirm  what  arrangements,  if  any,  have  been  made  to  have  Jersey represented at the U.K. political party conferences this year, including which members of the government will be attending; how much has been spent on acquiring any tickets to dinners and other exclusive events; and, where such tickets have been bought, which conferences they relate to?

Answer

The Government of Jersey will be represented at the UK political party conferences this year, as follows:

Note:

* The Minister for External Relations was scheduled to attend both the Liberal Democrats and Conservative party conferences.

**  Jersey has an exhibition stand at the Conservative Party Conference, this is reflected in the

number of officials in attendance.

7. DEPUTY  G.P.  SOUTHERN  OF  ST.  HELIER  OF THE  CHIEF  MINISTER REGARDING INITIATIVES FUNDED BY THE ECONOMIC AND PRODCTIVITY GROWTH DRAWDOWN PROVISION: [1(501)]

Question

Further to the response to Written Question 1(429) on 18th July 2017, will the Chief Minister detail for members the initiatives (whether through States Departments or private-sector bodies) which have  received   funding  from  the  Economic  and  Productivity  Growth  Drawdown  Provision (EPGDP); who signed off the funding in each case; and what criteria are used in assessing the success or failure of each initiative?

Answer

The initiatives which have received funding from the EPGDP The following initiatives have received funding:

- Data Protection

- Digital Jersey Hub

- Financial Services Review

- Brexit

- Skills Strategy

In addition, the following initiatives have been recommended for funding by the Economic Policy Political Oversight Group and are either awaiting ministerial decision by the Treasury Minister or have yet to draw down funding:

- Jersey Business High Growth Pilot

- Skills Jersey

Who signed off the funding in each case?

Consistent with the process for any allocation from Central Contingencies, the Treasury Minister ultimately signs off all EPGDP projects. In doing so, he takes into account the recommendations of the Economic Policy Political Oversight Group and the EPGDP Officer Group.

What criteria are used in assessing the success or failure of each initiative?

Each project is required to provide details of success criteria as part of the application process. These criteria are bespoke for each project and set out in detailed business cases but, as far as possible, are linked to impacts on GVA, employment or productivity.

Where direct links cannot be made due, for example, to a lack of available data, success criteria are focused on outputs and a demonstrable economic rationale. The potential impacts are assessed by the Economics Unit as part of the approval process. Projects related to Brexit are assessed by reference to the delivery of the work that is required to ensure the Island responds adequately to changes required by the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.

8. DEPUTY  J.A. MARTIN  OF  ST.  HELIER  OF  THE  PRESIDENT  OF  THE CHAIRMEN'S COMMITTEE REGARDING THE BUDGET FOR THE SCRUTINY FUNCTION: [1(502)]

Question

Will the President inform the Assembly of what the Scrutiny budget was at the start of the Scrutiny function in 2005 and what that budget is now; and will he indicate how the initial and current budgets compare when taking into account inflation?

Answer

The Scrutiny Panels (initially four) and the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) began work under the new system of Ministerial Government in December 2005. The above table shows that the budget allocated to the Panels and PAC for discretionary spend on review work (for example adviser fees, research, hearing transcripts) in 2006 totalled £419,000. Adjusted for inflation this would  be  equivalent  to  £556,988  in  Q1  2017,  and  compares  to  a  budget  of  £389,000  for discretionary spend in 2017.

With additional fixed costs included, such as for staff and associated office accommodation rental fees, the overall budget allocated to the Scrutiny function was £939,058 in 2006 (adjusted for inflation this is equivalent to £1,248,315 in Q1 2017) and £1,285,044 in 2017.

The following might also be noted for context:

• A fifth Scrutiny Panel was established late in 2006, with the remit of the then Social Affairs Panel being shared out between the Education and Home Affairs Panel and the Health and Social Security Panel.
• Both elements of the budget have been subject to the influence of States wide Comprehensive Spending Reviews in intervening years on the States Greffe's budget (2011 -2%, 2012 -3%, 2013 -5%)
• In all years, Panel/Review actual spend has been within budget at year end.

9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING BODIES CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN THE DELIVERY OF HOME CARE SERVICES: [1(503)]

Question

Following his policy decision to open home care funding to market competition, will the Minister list the names of the bodies currently engaged in the delivery of home care services locally, showing for each one their status as either a non-profit-making, charitable or private sector business; whether they are in local or other ownership; and the size of the organisation (as indicated by the number of staff employed)?

Will the Minister further set out a schedule for consultation on the delivery of an ethical care charter for these bodies engaged in the delivery of care in the home?

Answer

Details of the range of charitable and private sector organisations providing homecare in Jersey can be found on the Jersey Online Directory at www.jod.je

Health and Social Services does not hold information regarding the ownership details of the homecare providers nor the number of staff they employ.

Work is continuing on the consultation arrangements around a Jersey Ethical Care Charter and the first meeting with home care providers is scheduled for next month.

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE OWNERSHIP OF COMPANIES OPERATING IN JERSEY AND THE REVENUES RECEIVED FROM THEM IN TAX: [1(504)]

Question

Will the Chief Minister provide members with a breakdown, by local / non-local ownership, of the companies in the eleven sectors of the economy listed in Table 1 of the publication Measuring the Jersey Economy: GVA and GDP 2015'; and, if not, will he explain why not?

Will he, following consultation with the Minister for Treasury and Resources, also state what tax revenues are generated in total by the companies in each sector, again differentiating between local and non-local ownership, either directly from taxable profits or through Income Tax charged on local beneficial owners?

Answer Answer Part 1

The allocation of "business entities" between the eleven sectors of the economy is based on sectorial information held by the Population Office. For the avoidance of doubt the term "business entities" is broader than just companies (e.g. it also includes sole traders and partnerships). Table 1 below therefore sets out:

1. the total of "business entities" in each sector
2. the number of companies in each sector; and
3. the tax rate applied to companies in each sector

Table 1 – sectorial analysis of business entities, companies and applicable company tax rates

Note 1: "Construction" includes property development and general building. Profits from property development are subject to tax at 20%. Companies engaged solely in general building are subject to tax at 0%.

Note 2: Companies licensed to run part or all of a public telecommunications system under the Telecommunications (Jersey) Law 2002 are subject to tax at 20%.

Note 3: The term "financial services company" is specifically defined within the Income Tax Law. Prima facie companies that fall within the definition are subject to tax at 10%. However not all the companies categorised as "finance services entities" by the Population Office will be within the definition  of  "financial  services company"  for the  purposes  of  the  Income  Tax  Law.  Those companies that fall outside the definition in the Income Tax Law will be subject to standard 0% rate.

Note 4: This component of GVA comprises actual rent, paid by households living in private sector rental  accommodation  (entitled  and  registered)  and  also  an  imputed rent  for  owner-occupier households. Companies paying income tax at 20% on any profits from actual Jersey property rental activities.

Note 5: The States of Jersey are exempt from tax under Article 115(e) of the Income Tax Law.

A list of the names of the companies in each sector has been provided to the Taxes Office. The Taxes Office will subsequently undertake an exercise to analyse the companies shown in Table 1 into two further groups namely:

1. those companies where a Jersey resident individual ultimately owns more than 2% of the ordinary share capital; and
2. all other companies

This is a manual process and will take some time to complete. The analysis will be provided to States Members as soon as it is available.

Answer Part 2

Table 2 below sets out the amount of income tax from those companies which are charged at a positive rate of tax for the year of assessment 2015.

Table 2 – analysis of 2015 company income tax based on company activity

When undertaking the additional work in relation to Part 1, the Taxes Office will also analyse the figures shown in Table 2 between:

1. those companies where a Jersey resident individual ultimately owns more than 2% of the ordinary share capital; and
2. all other companies

The total income assessed on individuals from distributions from Jersey companies for the year of assessment 2015 was £178,823,973.

It is not possible to specifically identify how much personal income tax has been paid on these distributions. Distributions are just one component of a number of components which make up the calculation of an individual's income tax liability (e.g. the individual may have other sources of income such as employment income). In addition some individuals receiving distributions will be entitled to a credit to reduce the personal income tax payable, this is because the profits out of which the distribution has been paid have previously been taxed in the company.

11. DEPUTYM.R.HIGGINSOFST.HELIEROFTHEMINISTERFORHEALTHAND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING HOSPITALS AND MEDICAL CENTRES USED BY THE STATES OF JERSEY PRISON SERVICE: [1(505)]

Question

Will the Minister advise what hospitals or other medical centres in the United Kingdom, if any, are used by the States of Jersey Prison Service and how many prisoners have been referred to any such places over the last five years; and will he also state the purpose of any such referrals, the duration of the treatment provided, and what monitoring of the quality of the treatment takes place?

Answer

Prisoners requiring referral to the UK for specialist care that cannot be provided on-island are referred by HSSD consultants to the most appropriate care centre in the same way as any other Islander.

In the last five years, eight prisoners have received specialist care that cannot be provided on- island. The duration of this treatment is determined by their treatment team, with that treatment monitored according to the standard arrangements in place for any off-island treatment. Given the small numbers involved, it is not appropriate to give details of their treatment as this would risk identifying individuals.

12. DEPUTYM.R.HIGGINSOFST.HELIEROFTHEMINISTERFORHEALTHAND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE MONITORING OF STAFF MORALE: [1(506)]

Question

Will the Minister advise members how his Department monitors staff morale, if at all, and whether staff attitude surveys are used? If so, will he publish the results of these or similar surveys for the last five years?

Answer

Most members will be aware that my Department undertook a large-scale staff attitude survey in 2015. This was based on the long-established NHS staff survey, suitably adapted to the Jersey context, enabling us to benchmark against appropriate peer organisations.

The results of the survey were published and available to all HSSD staff on the States intranet. There were also media briefings and the results were shared with the Scrutiny Panel.

A cross-section of front-line staff, trade union representatives and managers have worked together in a series of focus groups and workshops to produce an action plan based on the survey.

Staff have continued to be involved in monitoring this work through our Staff Partnership Forum where the CEO and her senior team meet regularly with staff representatives. This group has driven even more staff engagement throughout 2017 and there are some very positive developments that will be appearing later this year.

My officers are aiming to repeat the survey at an appropriate time in 2018.

13. DEPUTY M.R.HIGGINSOFST.HELIEROFTHEMINISTERFORHEALTHAND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE INVESTIGATION OF COMPLAINTS AGAINST SENIOR STAFF IN HIS DEPARTMENT: [1(508)]

Question

Given that in certain services such as the military or police, complaints against senior officers can only be investigated by an officer of either the same or a superior rank, will the Minister advise whether such a policy applies to investigations of complaints against senior staff undertaken by his Department's governance team or whether members of the governance team can undertake such investigations regardless of their own level of seniority?

Answer

Health and Social Services has a mix of internal and external policies and procedures under which investigations relating to senior staff may occur. These include, for example, raising serious concerns, individual grievances, bullying and harassment, and complaints policies, which are available on the Internet or intranet as appropriate.

In the case of a senior officer, a more senior officer would commission any investigation and then make a decision on the basis of the facts presented. Where appropriate or necessary, independent investigators will be appointed from outside Health and Social Services.

5. Oral Questions

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Just as a point of order, it appears that I only appear to be asking one question because it looks like on the Order Paper my question has been repeated.

[9:45]

The Deputy Bailiff :

Yes, I was aware of this. Your question under question 3 and question 12 are in identical terms. In fact there is a Supplementary Order Paper, which substitutes the second of those questions for another question asked by you of the Minister for Social Security. So you do have 2 questions on the list and yours will be the last question.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Thank you, Sir. Could you arrange for the Usher to give me what my question is? [Laughter] The Deputy Bailiff :

It is contained in a Supplementary Order Paper and I am sure the Supplementary Order Paper can be handed to you, Deputy .

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence :

I have just noticed that on the Written Question number 5 from my department it appears that in the printing only part of the attached schedule has been included in the packs for Members.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you, Minister. Then you are informing the Assembly that the documentation that they have been provided as the answer to your question is incomplete and presumably the complete answer will be circulated to Members as soon as possible.

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade of the Chief Minister regarding the Chief Minister's policy position on a referendum for the role of the Speaker: [1(522)]

Is it the Chief Minister's policy position that the question of the States Assembly electing its own Speaker should be put to a public referendum; and, if not, why not?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The decision as to who should serve as a speaker of the States Assembly is, in my view, one that should be taken by the Members of this Assembly.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

Is it then the case of the Council of Ministers that this should be put to a referendum given the fact that one of his most senior Ministers has lodged an amendment, albeit not to his proposition but to mine, saying that there should be a referendum on this issue? Is the Council of Ministers divided on this fundamental issue of democracy?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Council of Ministers is made up of independent Members of this Assembly and it is divided on many, many issues. It should not come as a surprise to any Member of this Assembly. It is on the public record that I hold a particular view on this matter and how it should be decided. It is also on the public record that other senior Ministers hold a completely contrary view.

2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Given that the Assembly has previously expressed its view that a referendum on this most important issue is appropriate why is the Chief Minister not willing to let the public express their view on this most important matter, which is a constitutional change and wipes out 800 years of history?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy well knows that those people who do not wish to see this Assembly electing its own Speaker want a referendum. It is the democratic norm around the globe that parliaments elect their own Speaker, whether that be one of their own Members, which is the majority positon, or a member outside of the Assembly. That is what I am proposing. That is why I do not think there needs to be a referendum. The States well know that the questioner has a different view.

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Supplementary. The Minister did not clarify why he did not think the public should have the right to support this change as opposed to the individual who may or may not eventually be elected.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The public will. We are elected to this Assembly to make decisions. I hope that Members of this Assembly in due course, later this year, will agree to elect their own Speaker. Those Members who vote for that proposal will then have to face an election in May of next year, and the public, I have no doubt, in making their vote during that general election will consider how Members voted on a whole range of issues, not least the election of a Speaker to this Assembly.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Will the Chief Minister explain why he has not spoken on this matter with Guernsey, our representatives in London, the Privy Council and even our own Bailiff ?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It is a matter for this democratically elected Assembly to decide who it elects as Speaker. That is the democratic norm around the globe. Members cannot ignore that fact. Of course they can say that they are not prepared, do not want to make that change, because they think tradition and history outweighs that global democratic norm, but it is us, it is we who are elected who ought to make that decision, not push it off to some other consultation with some other body outside of this Assembly. [Approbation] That is not what we are elected for. We are elected to make decisions in the best interests of Jersey and that is what I am asking this Assembly to do in due course.

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Would it not be at least polite to speak to these people about what he intends to do rather than just issue a diktat, as he has done.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Democratic norms across the United Kingdom, across the Commonwealth, across the globe, cannot be considered when presented to this democratically elected Assembly as a diktat. It is a question that the Assembly needs to ask itself and address which of those 2 outweighs the other; the global democratically accepted norm or our traditions? That is the question we are going to have to face. I support this Assembly democratically electing its speaker in future.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Would it not be polite, Chief Minister?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Senator, you have already had a supplementary.

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

Does the Chief Minister agree with me that when the Island is facing so many challenges the question of who presides in this Assembly being put through a referendum, when it frankly will not capture the imagination of most of the public, would be an imprudent waste of money when this Assembly is more than capable of deciding who presides over this Assembly?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

This Assembly has a woeful record when implementing the results of referendum. The only time we have implemented it, I think in recent history, is when the referendum asked members of the public whether they wish to retain Constables in the States. That required no change, so of course we accepted that result, we did not have to do anything. But when the public asked us to make a change and do something we put it into the "too difficult to do" box, and we did not make a change. Let us not make that mistake again. Let us get on and be masters of our own destiny in line with the global democratic norms that we see. As I said, not only in the United Kingdom but across the Commonwealth.

7. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Is it not ironic, Chief Minister, that those who have used the words "democratic" a number of times in the words used today refused to recognise that it might be the ultimate test of democracy to take it to the public, particularly when this Assembly has already expressed the view there should be a referendum on this matter? Why is the Chief Minister ignoring that particular vote?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The questioner, I am surprised, persists in such a question when he himself voted against the results of a public referendum when it comes to electoral reform. [Approbation] He knows he did. Now he is trying to say: "Let us have a referendum" and I fear if we have another referendum Members of this Assembly will simply ignore it because it will not agree with their preconceived ideas on the issue.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Point of correction, I did support the results of the last referendum. The Deputy Bailiff :

There are no points of correction.

8. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

On this question, would the Chief Minister, as he says he wants to support full democratic norms, would he also support the full principle of full party politics, which is also a peculiarity of our Assembly?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think that goes outside the ambit of the question that is asked which was specifically about a Speaker, so I do not allow that question.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

That is a shame because that was going to be the gist of my last question, which I think I can relate. But let me start off and see at which point it falls out of order. The Chief Minister will be familiar, no doubt, with the quote from Abraham Lincoln, given that their political biographies are so closely intertwined [Laughter] when he said: "A House divided against itself cannot stand" and given his admission in the first answer that he gave to the Assembly, that the Council of Ministers is deeply divided, not just on this issue but on many issues, does he agree that in order to provide proper leadership in the future, whoever the Council of Ministers are, should stand on a political party ticket to make sure that the public can have confidence?

The Deputy Bailiff :

That is the point it dropped out of being relevant, Deputy , I am afraid. [Laughter] Deputy M. Tadier :

That on the issue of the separation of powers, which is what we are debating, and on other issues, they can have full confidence in whichever government ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , I cannot allow that. If I did not allow the first one I cannot allow that. Deputy M. Tadier :

I will withdraw that and simply thank the Chief Minister for his answers.

2. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen of H.M. (Her Majesty) Attorney General regarding contracts of sale and purchase passed before the Royal Court: [1(516)]

When presenting a contract of sale and purchase to be passed before the Royal Court, is it permissible for an individual or private company to omit reference to the amount of consideration payable under the contract on the grounds of commercial sensitivity, in the same way as recent contracts passed by Andium Homes Limited for the purchase of properties adjacent to the Town Park?

Mr. M.H. Temple Q.C., H.M. Solicitor General (Rapporteur):

I am grateful to the Deputy of St. Ouen for this question. All contracts relating to Jersey land must be registered in the Public Registry of Contracts. This requirement was first laid down by an ordinance of the States in 1602 for the establishment of our land registry. The requirement was confirmed by the Code of 1771, which still requires the Judicial Greffier to record the details of all such contracts, including the price, the prix d'argent, payable under the contract in respect of the property concerned. It is not clear what the precise effect may be of an omission to record the price in a land transaction in the public registry and the Judicial Greffier is considering raising this matter with the Court for determination, but the requirement contained in the Code of 1771 remains in force.

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Will the Attorney General or Solicitor General be taking or speaking, giving any advice to Andium Homes to correct and publicise the prices it has paid under these contracts?

The Solicitor General:

In relation to these contracts the Law Officers' Department did not act for Andium Homes. But as I have said, the Judicial Greffier intends to raise this matter with the Court for determination and as part of that process I anticipate writing to the firms concerned who advised Andium in relation to these contracts, and will draw their attention to this matter and seek an explanation for it.

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Is the Solicitor General aware of any other contracts that have had the price consideration not disclosed in the contract that is passed before the Court?

The Solicitor General:

The ones that I am aware of all concern Andium Homes.

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Just as a point of record, would the Solicitor General note that the consideration was disclosed to the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel in a public forum yesterday.

The Solicitor General:

I am grateful for that.

4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Would the Solicitor General also explain why it seems that such a fundamental part of a contract, the purpose of contracts being passed before the Royal Court, is that they are public? Could he also, when explaining to the Judicial Greffier, when he returns back or replies to this question explain why the contract itself was accepted without the consideration being paid, because it just seems to me such an extraordinary element of a contract not being included in a public court?

The Solicitor General:

Yes, the purpose .. so the Code of 1771 is clear that the public registry is intended to be exactly that. It is meant to be available for inspection, details of contracts are available for inspection by members of the public and that does include the price. In relation to the second question that the Senator asked, could he just remind me of what that question was?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Why was the contract accepted in Court? [10:00]

Is it invalid if it does not contain important elements that the Court requires? That is the purpose of it, the Court can say no.

The Solicitor General:

The practice, as I understand it, of the Judicial Greffier is that contracts .. there are many contracts obviously that are presented on a Friday afternoon and the practice of the Greffier is that they can only scrutinise the contents of those contracts when it comes to listing them for inclusion in the Registry, which takes place 2 or 3 days subsequently to the Friday on which they are passed. So that is the reason why this has not been picked up.

5. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier :

Is the Solicitor General aware that probably quite a significant number of contracts have been passing through Court over the past few months that have the private agreement sort of statement in without any numerical figure against them, whereas there never used to be?

The Solicitor General:

I am aware of 7 contracts and, as I said, those all concern Andium Homes. I am not aware of other contracts. There may well be other contracts but the only ones I am aware of are 7.

6. The Deputy of St. Ouen :

As it is the view of the learned Solicitor General that the contracts have breached the legal provision in the ordinance and the code, can he explain the nature of the Judicial Greffier's proposed reference to the Court? Is it for the Court to make a general ruling as to whether the omission of the consideration would be permissible in future or is the intention to seek directions as to how the contracts that have been passed by Andium Homes should be corrected?

The Solicitor General:

It may well be that a benefit of referring this matter to the Court is to raise this matter publicly and give directions to firms generally concerning this matter. One possible remedy that might be sought would be simply an order that revised contracts are passed which do contain the consideration or the price that is paid under the contracts. But we are only just starting to think about the form of the representation and the relief that we will be seeking, so this matter is at a very early stage.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding rent control measures: [1(520)]

Will the Minister inform Members of her estimate of the increase in average rent levels over the period 2014 to 2017 in the private sector and in relation to Andium Homes and the housing trusts for one-bed flats, 2-bed flats and 3-bed houses; and will she state what measures she can take or is considering to control such rent levels?

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Housing):

The Statistics Unit has only recently begun collecting data on private sector rents, so it is not possible to provide an accurate figure of the increase in private sector rents between 2014 and 2017. However, we know rents in the private sector have increased on average by 3.3 per cent each year between 2012 and 2016. The States rental policy stipulates that social housing rents may be adjusted by R.P.I. (retail price index) plus 0.75 per cent annually until they reach 90 per cent of market rent. So Andium and the housing trusts would have increased their rents within these parameters. Since Andium was incorporated rents have increased by an average of 2.1 per cent each year between 2014 and 2016. I recognise that affordability of housing is a challenge for many households and a consistent supply of new homes will help reduce or put pressure on rents and house prices. In order to prevent unreasonable rent increases during this I am also considering re- establishing the Rent Control Tribunal so that people can challenge rents that they feel are unfair and do not reflect the market price.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister agree that the net effect is that we do not know currently by how much private sector rentals are increasing and yet we are pegged to 90 per cent of private sector rentals? Is there not a formula for a massive growth in rental levels and does she believe that the Rent Tribunal had, at the time, and will have, enough teeth to control the private sector?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I think there are 3 questions in there, so I will try and answer them. The price control of the rental sector, that as I said is the independent Statistics Unit who did record it from 2007 until 2012 but they stopped following the change of law with the Population Office. They no longer recorded that

data. But since 2012, as I said, they have been collecting data and that is the figure that I have given. The States policy of 90 per cent rent was debated and approved by this House so it is an Assembly decision, and it is ordered that the benefit of it is that all our social housing can now be upgraded up to a fit and decent standard that we like to think that all our residents can live in. So that is why that was in, to be able to pay back the £250 million bond. I have forgotten what the third question was.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will the Rent Control Tribunal, as was constituted, have enough teeth to control rents? The Deputy of Trinity :

It has not met since before 2009. I think it only had 3 queries before that so I am looking at it and shall take it from there.

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Would the Minister, while understanding the background to the reason why the Deputy is asking the question, agree that the only way to deal with rising rents is to put the right supply in place providing of course there is an immigration policy that works, and it is only supply and not a Rent Tribunal that is going to effectively control rents for private sector?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Indeed. I have said that many times, that the way forward is we know that there is a long list of people waiting on the Gateway for one, 2 and 3-bedroomed homes and we need to provide them. But also there is a group of people who are over-occupying who need to move down, either the family have left home and so they can move down to a 2-bedroomed home or even to a one- bedroomed home, of which there is very, very little supply. So yes, we do need to build more. Andium are set to build 1,000 homes on target, provided they go through the planning process, by 2020 with a view of building another 1,000 by 2025.

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Could the Minister confirm that social housing rents are up to 90 per cent of market not 90 per cent of market, as the Minister previously stated? Therefore it is at the discretion of the directors of Andium or the trustees of the relevant housing trust, using their professional skills and knowledge, to determine at which level they set their rents up to that level, so it is within their discretion not to set rents at 90 per cent if it is appropriate, in their opinion?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Indeed. I am very pleased to confirm that. Why Andium is set at 90 per cent is because it was a States decision and the other housing trusts can do more or less how they feel is appropriate, which I know the Deputy does with his housing trust.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

The Minister no doubt has a longer memory than I do, and I cannot remember the last time in Jersey when rents were not going up and when rents were not expensive or when supply was outstripping demand. Maybe the Minister can. But does she think that maybe the supply issue has got something to do with population? What is the population policy of her Government and what effect is that having on supply and demand in the housing market, including affordable rents?

The Deputy of Trinity :

There is an interim population policy and there is one going to be lodged fairly soon in the next couple of months or so. But we are an ageing society and whether population or not, we are all ageing and we need to be housed. However we would like to get around it, it is an ageing population but do not forget if somebody comes into the Island and begins to work they cannot access social housing trusts, income support or social housing until they have been here for a period of time, which the good Deputy knows.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I ask the Minister: what is the point in building 1,000 homes over a period of the next few years if the population is going to go up by more than 1,000 new families in the Island? Does that stack up in her mathematics or that of the Council of Ministers?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I have just said, we are an ageing society so we have got to look after them. We are all living longer and we all wish to stay in our own homes so we have got to deal with that. Yes, there is an incoming population policy but also they have to, as I have said, be here for a period of time, but we also need them to be able to pay for our pensions and also be able to reinvest in other services, especially in health and education.

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Much has been said about the supply of housing having a correlation with the affordability of rents, so what is the Minister doing to get the empty residential properties in the Island back on to the market and what is she doing to incentivise landlords not to hoard properties that they are not managing properly?

The Deputy of Trinity :

That is a very good question of vacant properties. I know I have had with my officers long discussions about how to get vacant properties or empty home properties back into circulation.  I have said it before, we have talked to the Constables about understanding the whole remit, how many homes are empty, but that would need a change in the Rates Law. We have talked to the electricity company and J.T. (Jersey Telecom) about triangulating electricity not being used or no landline not being used. We have also talked with Andium at a very high level about whether .. somebody like Andium or other housing trusts or other developers might do a bit of partnership: "Well, we will do it up if we have the rent." These things are still going round. We need to do something, try and find a way forward of bringing vacant properties, understanding the reason, understanding how many and bringing them back into use.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Interesting to hear the Minister says she is promising 1,000 homes by 2020 and then popped out that we are going to have another 1,000 homes by 2025. Can she identify if these homes are already in the areas where they need to be built or have got planning permission? A very simple answer: what is she basing this population figure on? What is she building to? She is the Minister for Housing and if she does not have a figure we might as well all go home.

The Deputy of Trinity :

I have not got that figure here. In the Housing Needs Survey all that work was done and it was published and it is in the public domain. I am quite happy to make sure that the Deputy has that report. But we know we will need .. and Andium will be on target to deliver that by 2020. But we also need to look forward. As I said, the ageing population, et cetera. We still need to look forward. We cannot just stand still because that has been the trouble before is we are standing still and not developing.

8. Deputy J.A. Martin:

That was a simple question: does the Minister for Housing have a population figure that she is basing her housing supply on? It may be in a lot of papers. I need the figure. 100,000, 150,000, 125,000, what is the figure?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I can tell you, as I said, it is in the Housing Needs Survey and I am happy to give the Deputy access to that report, which is in the public domain.

[10:15]

9. Deputy G.P. Southern :

It is hard to know where to pull on the depths of ignorance on this subject. However one can note, as fact, that we have seen a 10 per cent increase over the past 3 years in the private sector which leaves private sector 3-bed house rental at around £500 a week and the fact that in pursuing the 90 per cent level of the private sector, rents for one-bedroom flats at Andium have gone up by 30 per cent. Does the Minister accept that it is no good building 1,000 houses, 2,000, 3,000 houses if people cannot afford to pay the rents to live in them? Is that not the case of her policy?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I said before, the way to bring down rents is to bring on more supply. We know there is a waiting list on social housing providers but also Andium tenants paying 90 per cent rent; 29 per cent of Andium tenants pay 90 per cent rents. Overall the minimum rent charged is 76 per cent of market value.

4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Infrastructure regarding a reduction in the cleaning of States roads: [1(515)]

Has the Minister ordered a reduction in the cleaning of States roads and, if so, is this a temporary measure?

Deputy E.J. Noel (The Minister for Infrastructure):

I have not specifically ordered a reduction in the cleaning of States roads, however the Deputy will recall that my department was required to make significant budget savings as part of the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan) 2, and as a result a service review of the Department for Infrastructure cleaning services was carried out in 2016, which did result in this particular section making efficiency gains and optimising the resources that we have available. The mechanical sweeping and highways cleaning teams saw a reduction in direct staff numbers, mainly through to the outsourcing of all road cleaning works within the Parish of St. Helier boundaries by the Parish itself, and we are grateful for the officers of the Parish and indeed the Constable for working with us in this end. Some reorganisation of working times and practice will also present significant savings.

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I think that was a yes. I refer not only to the litter in the road, but the leaves that are coming. Winter is coming on, leaves are coming off the trees and we have had minor flooding in St. Saviour and other parts of the Island, more serious flooding in St. Ouen where there was several feet of water. Will the Minister ensure that all storm drains are kept absolutely clear to avoid any flooding incidents this winter?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

That is a different area - that is not about the cleaning of the roads - it is about making sure that our drains are not blocked. We have not seen any changes to that team that go round. They work on a rotation basis and do target black spots where there are issues but when you have the level of rain that we saw 2 Saturdays ago, you are going to unfortunately get blockages from time to time.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

That was a strange answer from the Minister. He said that he had not specifically ordered a reduction in the cleaning of the roads. So has he ordered it in a non-specific way, is the first question?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Ministers are to be held to account and we are to answer the question that is put in front of us. The question that was put in front of us was: "Had I ordered a reduction?" No, I had not. I had authorised for a service review to take place to make sure we are carrying out our services to the public efficiently, which is what our department strives to do day-in day-out.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

Did the Minister also say and admit that they had outsourced the service of cleaning the roads to another party and that is why there is a reduction in the service?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

No, I did not say that. What I did say is that for the Parish of St. Helier, the Parish now .. the Constable is not with us at the moment, and I am grateful to him and his team for agreeing to take on cleaning of the roads for the entire Parish of St. Helier. That has freed up our staff to concentrate on the rest of the Island, and the Parish themselves do an excellent job within their Parish.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does that mean then that the Minister has failed to establish a service level agreement with the Parish to ensure that we have the same standard of cleaning with the same regularity as previously?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

We have an excellent working relationship with the Parish [Interruption] .. if the Deputy would let me give him the answer that he is looking for, it might not be the answer that he wants. That we do have a service level agreement with the Parish and it has been therefore a considerable amount of time and it is refreshed regularly.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Minister satisfied that the standards produced by the Parish are satisfactory and meet that service level agreement?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I am satisfied with the work that the Parish does on behalf of my department. To date I do not believe that we had any complaints from the public for the condition of the roads in St. Helier since the review in 2016, nor have we had any from anywhere else in the Island, to my knowledge.

6. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Last year I notified the Minister on behalf of the residents of First Tower that all the drains in the area appear to be blocked and very quickly his department came out and cleaned them. We were very grateful for that. However, a year has passed and they do not appear to have been attended to again. He mentioned the fact that there was some kind of rota and a process whereby these things are taken care of. Would it be possible for him to either publish that or let us have a sight of it so that we can inform our residents that these things are taking place on a regular basis and when they might be?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I am most happy to do that. The Island is split into 4 sections that we deal with and they are done on a rota basis of those 4 sections in turn. But in particular, as I said, the road sweeping in St. Helier is done by the Parish but the gully collection on our roads I believe is still done by my department but I am happy to provide that information to the Deputy , and indeed to the public.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy Martin.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Would the Minister agree therefore that the natural conclusion of the .. The Deputy Bailiff :

Actually, Deputy , I called on Deputy Martin. You are next on the list.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I think I was going to go in the same direction. Did the Minister not stand up in this House many times when questioned by other States Members on when he was cutting costs and staff in his department and say that services would remain the same? Today we are hearing he did a service review after he cut the staff. Is that not the case? Or is my memory fading because I am sure the Minister did tell us service would stay the same.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

The service review was carried out in 2016 and the staff that were not required after that service review left after that, not before. Just to correct Deputy Martin there. We have maintained the level of service that we provide for road cleaning. What we have done is move away from our 7- day shift patterns to 5-day shift patterns, therefore saving costs of work being carried out at the weekend. Also one of the things we did receive complaints about was our road sweepers being out early Sunday morning, so we have listened to that and therefore that is one of the reductions we have done. It means that they are now out Monday to Friday throughout the day.

8. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Has the Minister been in town on a Friday or Saturday night to see the rubbish that is around the roads?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

As I have already explained, we have a service level agreement with the Parish of St. Helier for cleaning the roads within the Parish. I have not, to my knowledge, had any complaints about that but if it is an issue we will take that up with the Parish to ensure that they are complying with the service level agreement.

9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Is it not now clear that the natural conclusion of the M.T.F.P. and this Minister's policy was that Islanders are now simply going to have to put up with living in an Island or in St. Helier, a Parish that is more messy than it was before, and that the concerns that were expressed by the workers at the time, the workers who he refused to meet at the time when he was threatening to outsource their jobs, were accurate and that the service has gone down?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Absolutely not. I do not agree with the sentiments of Deputy Mézec there. The M.T.F.P. reductions were voted on by this Assembly. It is this Assembly that set our cash limit and we said that we would have to make significant savings. Our savings target was some 23 per cent of our cash limits. We also had a reduction of over 20 per cent of our staff across the board. Those were difficult things to do but we did them, I believe, with respect for the workforce and took the workforce with us through those difficult periods. We need to make sure that the services that we provide to the public are efficient and we need to optimise the resources that we have got available to us. My department, along with every other States department, have not got a bottomless pit of money. We have our cash limits and we have to use those monies as effectively as possible to provide the services to Islanders.

10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

It may well have been an Assembly decision to adopt the M.T.F.P. but in his election for Minister for Transport and Technical Services, at the time, he specifically said he wanted to do the opposite. So given the issues that have now arisen is he now happy to prepare to admit that the promise he made in his election speech for Minister for Transport and Technical Services was an irresponsible promise and that the Assembly made the right decision, or would he, even if he does agree with my sentiment, at least agree with the facts that the service has gone down as a direct result of this frankly ill-informed and dangerous, I would say, outsourcing of public services?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

No, we have made the services more efficient, and I believe the Deputy is referring to a question by his colleague, Deputy Southern , back in I think it was November 2014 for the elections of ministerial posts where he asked if I was going to reduce the headcount of my department. The truth of the matter was is that it was my intention to increase it because I was bringing 2 departments together. I was bringing Property Holdings to join Transport and Technical Services and therefore at the time that is how I answered him, in that vein.

11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Does the Minister accept that part of the policies of the Council of Ministers have caused a reduction of service and an increase to the problems he faces? To give one example, the number of gardeners were cut, they were privatised, and put out to private agencies. Those same private agencies, if you wander through St. Helier and you see them doing the gardens, their idea of cleaning up the gardens is using a blower, which blows all the leaves and all the rubbish into the road, which blocks the drains. So does the Minister accept that he needs, first of all, to try and speak with his colleagues and make sure the gardens are done properly, and they reduce the amount of rubbish that is going to the drains and causing blockages?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

An interesting question from Deputy Higgins because the gardens in St. Helier were outsourced to the Parish of St. Helier, in particular the maintenance of the Town Park, apart from the mechanical side in terms of the fountains, et cetera, again under an S.L.A. (service level agreement). If the Deputy is telling me that his Parish are not living up to that S.L.A. then I will take that up with the Parish.

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

No, I am not saying it is the Parish. I am talking about Andium Homes and the gardeners that are used there. I live right next door ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , that is a response, not a supplementary question. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Okay, fine. Will he take it up with Andium Homes and the others then to try and get the gardens done properly, number one? Secondly, stop blocking the drains.

Deputy E.J. Noel:

Andium Homes does not come under my remit as the Minister for Infrastructure. If Andium Homes are not maintaining their properties to the satisfaction of Deputy Higgins then I suggest that Deputy Higgins takes it up with Andium Homes.

13. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

My questions are relating also besides debris, also to leaves. Last time I looked storm drains were in the roads so that does apply to my question. We have had some incidents in St. Saviour, there are people walking in the road because there are too many leaves on the pavement and it is very slippery. We used to have the roads and the pavements cleaned 3 times a week, now we are lucky if we see it every 6 weeks. As I say, winter is coming on, the drains are being blocked. When we had the recent storm the drains were, in my area, 7 of them, cleaned by me .. you can take the boy out of T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) but you cannot take T.T.S. out of the boy.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , we have to come to a question.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Will the Minister agree to look at this again and improve the cleaning regime? Deputy E.J. Noel:

As I have already explained, I am not sure how the particular road outside Deputy Kevin Lewis is cleaned 3 times a week or previously cleaned 3 times a week. I find that quite difficult to take on board when we work on a rota basis and the Island is split up into 4 separate rotas, and those are done one after each other. We continue to look at the services that we provide and we continue to look for producing a more efficient and effective service with the resources that we have. So I am quite willing to look at that again because that is what we do day-in day-out.

[10.30]

That is what my department does on all of its services day-in day-out; we look at ourselves to make sure: "Is there a better way of doing it, is there a more efficient way of doing it, to provide more services to the public for the money that we are given."

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for the Environment regarding the environmental impact of the residential properties planned for development around the Ann Court area of town: [1(524)]

What work, if any, is being done to consider the environmental impact of the residential properties planned for development around the Ann Court area of town; and, if no such work is being done or planned, will the Minister agree to implement a study of this matter to ensure that quality of life is maintained for the residents of that part of town?

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (The Minister for the Environment):

The applicant, Andium Homes, has submitted a comprehensive environmental impact statement with this planning application, which is published and available on the States of Jersey website under Planning reference P.2017/0730. A non-technical summary is also available. In addition, planning officers will assess the application in the light of the comments received and in accordance with the policies set out in the Island Plan before making a recommendation to the Planning Committee. Members will know that these policies are comprehensive and include among many other issues a requirement that the development does not unreasonably harm the amenities of neighbouring residents.

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Since the vast majority of the housing planned for this part of town will be undertaken by a States- owned body, this obviously provides the States a very good opportunity for comprehensive planning for the entire district. Would the Minister agree to engage with not only other States departments, such as the Education Department, which will have to provide school places for the children that live in these houses, but also the constituency representatives around the area who will be hearing concerns raised by people who are already in the area to do with things like traffic and pollution and the education for the people in that area, and make sure that there has been a much wider consultation than there so far has been before any final decision is taken?

Deputy S.G. Luce :

There are a lot of questions in that question but what I can tell the Deputy is I, like him, see the opportunity for a co-ordination of housing in this North of Town area. The North of Town Masterplan was implemented in 2011, went through this Assembly, and it envisages housing on a number of sites in the North of Town. The fact that we have one developer now in charge of 3 of those significant sites I see as a really good positive step forward and the opportunity to co- ordinate, as the Deputy says, a lot of issues which can make the life of people who live in that part of town better.