States Meeting Transcript - 11th July 2022

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT MONDAY, 11th JULY 2022

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS ........................... 8

1. Selection of Ministers ....................................................................... 9

1.1 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter (The Chief Minister designate): 9

2. The Minister for Treasury and Resources ................................................ 9

2.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst : .......................................................................... 9

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 11
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 11
3. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 12
4. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 12
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier South : .................................................. 13
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 13
7. Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier North : .................................................. 14
8. Deputy S.G. Luce of Grouville and St. Martin : .......................................... 14
9. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 14
10. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 14
11. Deputy L. Feltham of St. Helier Central : .............................................. 14
12. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 15
13. Deputy M.R. Ferey of St. Saviour :.................................................... 15
14. Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : .............................. 15

3. The Minister for Children and Education ............................................... 16

3.1 Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier North : .................................................. 16

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 18
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 18
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 18
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 18
5. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 19
6. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 19
7. Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat of St. Helier North : ............................................ 19
8. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : .......................................... 19
9. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 20
10. Deputy M. Tadier : ..................................................................... 20
11. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 21
12. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 21
13. Deputy M. Andrews of St. Helier North : .............................................. 21
14. Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity : .................................................. 21
15. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 22
16. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 22
17. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 22

4. The Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture .............. 22

4.1 Deputy K.F. Morel of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : .............................. 23

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 25
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 25
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 26
4. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................... 26
5. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................... 26
6. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : ................................................ 27
7. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................... 27
8. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 27
9. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 28
10. Deputy R. Kovacs of St. Saviour : ..................................................... 28
11. Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 28
12. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 29
13. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 29
14. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 29
15. Deputy C. Curtis of St. Helier Central : ................................................ 30
16. Deputy M. Andrews : .................................................................. 30
17. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 30
18. Deputy M. Scott of St. Brelade : ....................................................... 31

5. The Minister for the Environment ........................................................ 31

5.1 Deputy J. Renouf of St. Brelade : ......................................................... 31

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 33
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 33
3. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 34
4. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 34
5. Connétable K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour : ................................................... 34
6. The Connétable of St. Saviour : ........................................................... 35
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 35
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 35
9. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 36
10. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 36
11. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 36
12. Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat : .............................................................. 37
13. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 37
14. The Connétable of St. Helier : .......................................................... 37

6. The Minister for External Relations and Financial Services ........................... 38

6.1 Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf of St. Saviour : ..................................................... 38

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 40
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 41
3. Deputy H. Jeune :.......................................................................... 41
4. Deputy H. Jeune :.......................................................................... 41
5. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 41
6. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 42
7. The Connétable of St. Helier : ............................................................ 42
8. The Connétable of St. Helier : ............................................................ 43
9. Deputy L. Farnham : ...................................................................... 43
10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 43
11. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 44

12. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 44
13. Deputy M. Andrews : .................................................................. 45
14. Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary : .................................................. 45

7. The Minister for Home Affairs............................................................ 45

7.1 Deputy H. Miles of St. Brelade : .......................................................... 45

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 47
2. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 47
3. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 49
4. Deputy H. Jeune :.......................................................................... 49
5. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 49
6. Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 49
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 50
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 50
9. Deputy L. Feltham : ....................................................................... 50
10. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 51
11. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 51
12. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 51
13. Deputy S.G. Luce : ..................................................................... 52

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED ................................................... 52 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT .................................................................. 52

8. The Minister for Housing and Communities ............................................ 52

8.1 Deputy D. Warr of St. Helier South : ..................................................... 52

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 54
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 54
3. Deputy A. Curtis of St. Clement : ......................................................... 55
4. Deputy A. Curtis : ......................................................................... 55
5. Deputy M.R. Ferey : ...................................................................... 55
6. Deputy M.R. Ferey : ...................................................................... 55
7. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ........................................................ 55
8. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ........................................................ 56
9. Deputy H. Jeune :.......................................................................... 56
10. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 56
11. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 57
12. Deputy T. Coles of St. Helier South : .................................................. 57
13. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 57
14. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 58
15. Deputy M. Scott : ...................................................................... 58
16. Deputy M. Scott : ...................................................................... 58
17. Deputy M. Andrews : .................................................................. 58
18. Deputy M. Andrews : .................................................................. 58
19. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 59
20. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 59

9. The Minister for Infrastructure .......................................................... 60

9.1 Deputy T. Binet of St. Saviour : .......................................................... 60

1. Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 62
2. Deputy L. Feltham : ....................................................................... 62
3. Deputy L. Feltham : ....................................................................... 63

4. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 63
5. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 63
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 63
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 64
8. The Connétable of St. Mary :.............................................................. 64
9. Deputy L. Stephenson of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter : .............................. 64
10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 64
11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 65
12. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 65
13. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 65
14. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 65
15. Deputy A. Curtis : ...................................................................... 65
16. Deputy A. Curtis : ...................................................................... 66
17. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 66
18. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 66
19. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 66
20. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 66
21. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 67
22. The Connétable of St. Saviour : ........................................................ 67

10. The Minister for Health and Social Services............................................. 67

1. Deputy K. Wilson of St. Clement : ........................................................ 68

1. Deputy B. Ward of St. Clement : ...................................................... 70
2. Deputy B. Ward : ...................................................................... 70
3. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 70
4. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 70
5. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 70
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 71
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 71
8. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 71
9. Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 72
10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................ 72
11. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................ 72
12. Deputy R. Ward : .................................................................... 72
13. Deputy R. Ward : .................................................................... 72
14. Deputy M.R. Ferey : ................................................................ 73
15. Deputy M.R. Ferey : ................................................................ 73
16. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ................................................... 73
17. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ................................................... 74
18. Deputy T. Coles : .................................................................... 74

2. Deputy A. Howell of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : ................................ 74

1. Deputy B. Ward : ...................................................................... 76
2. Deputy B. Ward : ...................................................................... 76
3. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 77
4. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 77
5. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 77
6. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 77
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 78
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 78
9. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 78
10. Deputy L. Feltham : ................................................................. 79

11. Deputy L. Feltham : ................................................................. 79
12. Deputy T. Coles : .................................................................... 79
13. Deputy T. Coles : .................................................................... 79
14. Deputy M. Tadier : .................................................................. 80
15. Deputy M. Tadier : .................................................................. 80
16. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ................................................... 80
17. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ................................................... 80

11. The Minister for International Development ............................................ 82

11.1 Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville and St. Martin : ......................................... 82

1. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 84
2. Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 84
3. Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 84
4. Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 85
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 85
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 85
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 85
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 86
9. Deputy M. Scott : ...................................................................... 86
10. Deputy M. Scott : .................................................................... 86
11. Deputy K.F. Morel : ................................................................. 87
12. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................ 87

12. The Minister for Social Security .......................................................... 87

12.1 Deputy E. Millar of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : ................................. 88

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 90
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 90
3. Deputy M.R. Ferey : .................................................................... 90
4. Deputy M.R. Ferey : .................................................................... 91
5. Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 91
6. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 91
7. Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 92
8. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 92
9. Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 92
10. Deputy L. Feltham : ................................................................. 93
11. Deputy L. Feltham : ................................................................. 93
12. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................. 93
13. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................. 94
14. Deputy M. Andrews : ................................................................ 94
15. Deputy M. Andrews : ................................................................ 94
16. Deputy M. Scott : .................................................................... 94

ADJOURNMENT .................................................................................. 95

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Greffier of the States led the Assembly in Prayer. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour :

May I ask a point of order? I think it is a point of order before we begin. I have noted, and I think you will also have noted, that there is an inequality in the Standing Orders whereby the male Members in the Assembly are not permitted to remove their jackets and I also note that the temperatures today are expected to reach the high 20s. I wondered whether you would consider raising that particular Standing Order to temporarily address that inequality given the heat today, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that proposition seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak on that proposition? Deputy L.J. Farnham of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter:

Only, perhaps the air-conditioning could be turned on.

The Deputy Bailiff :

It has been turned on. This is the best it gets, I am afraid to say. The building's air-conditioning is poor. I am told there is a part on its way from somewhere but I am not quite sure where that is and when it is due to arrive. But, yes, thank you, Deputy . Male Members may remove their jackets if they wish during the course of this meeting of the Assembly.

Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

I wonder if this matter will be opened for debate. The Deputy Bailiff :

You want a debate?

The Connétable of St. Helier :

Yes, I have decided to express my opposition to the move. If the Chair can suffer the heavy robes that go with your office, I do not see why we should not suffer our jackets.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak?

Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter :

Only to say I understand the temperature that we may be experiencing later in the day. It is still, as far as I can sense, relatively mild and pleasant in this place, though having this conversation at lunchtime would not go amiss. But I do think that when we are speaking it would be appropriate to wear our jackets and perhaps you might make a nuanced decision.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that an amendment to the proposal? Deputy I.J. Gorst :

No, Sir, this is obviously a decision for you that when not speaking gentlemen could remove their jackets.

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier Central :

The only reason I am speaking is because one of the issues we have in this Assembly is trying to attract new people into a modern forward-thinking, forward-working constructive Assembly, regardless of differences in political opinion and some of the discussions and debates and, let us be quite frank, arguments that will happen in here. I think talking about jackets is something from the past and we need to look to the future. There is no reason you should not be comfortable in your workplace. I certainly would have said that when I was a teacher to my students that: "It is too hot, do not wear your ties, it is absolutely fine." I would rather you be focusing on what we are doing, the content of what you are doing, the content of your work, the content of your speeches and the overall thought that you put into the job that you do. If taking your jacket off helps you to do that then I would urge that that is what we do.

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier Central :

I raise the issue that my Constable raised, equality of suffering is I think something we should go for. The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on this proposition? If no Member wishes to speak I call upon Deputy Doublet to reply.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think common sense should prevail, and I do not know if it is in Standing Orders about your attire but I think again common sense should prevail in terms of comfort and the heat.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I do not have the relevant Standing Order in front of me but as a matter of good practice the Chair should not simply raise Standing Orders, so it is a matter for the Assembly to vote on in the usual way. Those who wish to support the proposition will vote pour, those who are against it will vote contre, and I ask the Greffier to open the voting. The proposition is that male Members be permitted to remove their jackets owing to the temperature today.

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Can I raise the défaut on Deputy Carolyn Labey before the vote please? The Deputy Bailiff :

The vote has begun so sorry, it is too late.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I do it immediately after?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Yes, you can. All Members have cast their votes, I ask the Greffier to close the voting and I can announce that the [Interruption] .. Members please be of good order while I announce the result. The proposition has been adopted.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Now we have got to grips with the burning issues of the day, I am glad this was our first vote in the new Assembly, can I raise the défaut on Deputy Carolyn Labey please?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Do Members agree the défaut should be raised? The défaut is raised. APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS The Deputy Bailiff :

There are several items under F, Appointment of Ministers, Committees and Panels, on the Order Paper, and the process is set out and described in the Order Paper. The first item is the selection of Ministers, and in accordance with Standing Order 117(2)(e) I invite the Chief Minister designate to read out her declaration.

1. Selection of Ministers

1.1   Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter (The Chief Minister designate):

My chosen Ministers for the Assembly to decide upon today will be firstly the Minister for Treasury and Resources, my nomination will be for Deputy Gorst . Then  Children and Education, the nomination will be Deputy Gardiner . Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture is Deputy Morel . Environment is Deputy Renouf . Then External Relations and Financial Services is Deputy Ozouf . Health and Social Services is Deputy Wilson . Home Affairs is Deputy Miles . Housing and Communities is Deputy Warr . Infrastructure is Deputy Tom Binet . International Development is Deputy Labey . Finally, for Social Security is Deputy Millar . I hope you will find, and the Assembly will agree, this a balanced and very capable slate of Ministerial appointments.

2. The Minister for Treasury and Resources The Deputy Bailiff :

The first matter is the selection of the Minister for Treasury and Resources. Members have received notice of the designation. Deputy Moore , would you wish to make the nomination?

Deputy K.L. Moore : Yes, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for Minister for Treasury and Resources? Accordingly, I invite Deputy Gorst to speak for up to 10 minutes, after which there will be a question period of up to 20 minutes.

2.1   Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I am grateful to the electorate in St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter for the support they gave me on 22nd June and for returning me to this Assembly. In that election Deputy Moore was clear that if successful she wished to serve as Chief Minister and she topped the poll in my district, securing more votes than anyone in this Assembly.

[9:45]

As Chief Minister designate, Deputy Moore has the clear support of the public and the States Assembly, and has set out her vision for the next 4 years; one that I wholeheartedly support and would be committed to deliver if the Assembly were to appoint me as Minister for Treasury and Resources. I particularly relish the call to action that the vision represents, underlined by 18 commitments for the first 100 days. I am honoured to have been nominated for the role as Minister for Treasury and Resources where I will retain political responsibility for financial services. Today, I set out my vision for how I will seek to undertake this most important role. I am aware of the responsibility that is inherent in the role of the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the opportunity it provides to improve the lives of people across our community. I have twice served as an Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources, most recently during the last Government to assist with COVID support packages and to take forward our work on international tax, but also when Senator Le Sueur was the Minister for Treasury and Resources. It is a role and portfolio with which I am familiar and for which I hope to now take on full responsibility, hitting the ground running. Over the next 4 years, the Treasury and wider Ministerial team will need to focus on the many challenges facing our community and concentrate on the issues that matter to Islanders. These were made clear to us by the public during the election campaign. Government must shape its policies to support a strong economy, ease the pressure on family budgets in these exceptional times, and ensure our success can be shared across the community. If I am elected, one of my first actions will be to prepare and deliver an early mini-Budget so that we can immediately take some measures to help

Islanders with the cost of living and act before the winter months arrive. This mini-Budget will be lodged in the next few weeks to help Islanders as quickly as possible. We will take action through the tax system to reduce the burden on Islanders, especially to ensure taxpayers keep more of their own money in their own pockets. We will support an increase to the minimum wage, above £10 an hour, moving to the living wage by the time we end this term of office. Our mini-Budget will include measures agreed by the Council of Ministers giving support for all Islanders while prioritising support for the most vulnerable and those on fixed incomes. The election campaign also highlighted, if we needed reminding, the need to deal with the housing crisis and to give Islanders hope of a secure future in Jersey. As the Minister for Treasury and Resources I will play my part in delivering for local families. As shareholder representative representing the public, I would ensure that current and future Jersey Development Company schemes deliver more than the planned 15 per cent of affordable homes. This may of course impact on current projects and might make less money available in the short term for improving other parts of our public realm but, we must be clear, it is a crisis and needs to be dealt with as a crisis. The message needs to go out clearly from this Assembly, as it came through clearly to us during the election campaign, our priority is affordable purchases for first-time buyers. We will maximise first-time buyer properties on publicly-owned land to restore hope, retain the talents and skills of young Islanders and keep our community diverse and vibrant. In addition, as I have set out in my manifesto, I will do what I can as the Minister for Treasury and Resources to support affordable purchases, be those through deposit schemes, shared equity or deferred payment options. In all of these areas, building homes and helping first-time buyers, I will continue to stand firmly in support of Andium Homes. The cost of living and the housing crisis will be Treasury's number one priority, closely followed by getting a grip on the Government and States finances. During the election campaign the voters who I spoke to were clear in their view that States spending had increased to an unsustainable rate, driving borrowing up too high. If elected, I will work with my colleagues to address these concerns. As Minister, and as a Government, value for money must be our watch words and spending, particularly on consultants, must be restrained. States spending will be brought back under control and focused on the priorities of Islanders. We will need, of course, to invest in key areas: the health service, mental health, children's services, education and skills training. We will support our public infrastructure and modernise the public estate, keeping and improving the buildings that we need and selling those that we do not so that proper use can be made of redundant sites, in particular for housing. As the Minister for Treasury and Resources, I will focus on ensuring that not only is spending directed to where it is needed most but also in ensuring that projects which spending is allocated for are delivered on time and not allowed to drift. Construction projects which are funded by the taxpayer need to be delivered when they are promised. We will ensure that we have a modern Government which is responsive to taxpayers and delivers value and efficiency for the public. Islanders are rightly concerned at the increase in borrowing that occurred under the last Government. My position on that has been clear and is evidenced through amendments I brought to the last 2 Government Plans. We have committed, I believe, too much public debt, as Islanders told me regularly on the doorstep, and we need to return to prudence and live within our means. As the Minister for Treasury and Resources I do not propose to permit further borrowing beyond any that might be required for the new hospital. We will start to pay down our debts beginning with those accrued during COVID, which can be fully repaid by 2026. On tax, I remain consistent in supporting low, simple and competitive taxes. I want to see the marginal rate reduced by at least 1 per cent for all Islanders as a permanent measure, putting money back in the hands of taxpayers. Treasury will of course need to play its role in designing schemes to fund the climate emergency response and also to help change behaviour, but I remain clear that our work in this respect must be proportional and based on public consensus. My position on G.S.T. (goods and services tax) is also clear. It should be broad, simple and low with any necessary mitigating support for low- income households being provided through the income support system. As Minister for Financial Services, a role I will be pleased to retain, I will continue to promote the industry across our key markets, ensuring we remain competitive and open to new opportunities, working hand in hand with

those that this Assembly will elect today or tomorrow. We will implement our new financial services strategy, working with industry and the regulator. We will continue to modernise our statute book. We will conclude Jersey's participation in the new global tax rules, ensuring they are fair and in our long-term interest. Importantly, I hope to steer us through the MONEYVAL assessment in 2023, which is crucial for the well-being of our economy and to protecting jobs in the Island. I will work to continue to ensure Jersey is a green, digitally-enabled and entrepreneurial finance centre, which can be confident of its future providing jobs and prosperity for Islanders for years to come. I have probably outlined enough challenges and priorities to help 4 years pass very quickly. Within the Treasury Department itself of course we have challenges to meet in improving our service to Islanders and businesses. I will do what I can to tackle these head on and improve our level of service. I have been in the States since 2005, I know to expect the unexpected and that Government will need to be nimble and flexible in responding to the challenges of the future.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to a period of 20 minutes of questions. I remind Members that any supplementaries must be connected to the original question, and the first question is from Deputy Southern .

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I rise to my feet to praise the Minister for at least being honest about what he intends. In paragraph 4 of his comments, he says: "I will seek to ensure we prioritise our investment in the key public services, including our health services, especially mental health, children's service and education." So far so good. This is a generous Minister for Treasury and Resources. But he then goes on: "The rate at which overall States spending increased over the past 4 years is not sustainable and must be brought under control. We must focus and target our spending." What does this mean? The Minister for Treasury and Resources, I am sure, will quibble with my words. It means cuts, cuts and more cuts to public services. We have seen this leopard before. In 2014 to 2018 he made those very cuts and he intends to do the same again. Is that not the case, Minister?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

No.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

He obviously has access to the magic money tree and will not say where he is going to make some cuts. If he is going to reduce spending he must admit that this comes with cuts in public services. There is no 2 ways about it. Will he say which cuts he shall make to which services? Will it mean extra waiting times for the hospital? Will it mean larger class sizes? What will it mean?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

Perhaps I could also answer his earlier question. He is incorrect. I know it is good politics to suggest that previous Governments were austerity Governments and made cuts right, left and centre. But the Deputy knows that during the 2014 to 2018 Government expenditure was controlled and it grew only slightly. During the 2018 to 2022 Government expenditure has increased quite magnificently. Islanders were clear to me on the doorstep that they do wish to see a Government that takes back control of spending. My opening position would be that we must look at that increased expenditure that was approved by this Assembly and make sure that for every penny and pound that we are spending that we get value for money from it. We now have over £200 million extra spend that Government is spending from 2018. Surely, when we put all that together, £1 billion of revenue expenditure, we can allocate it to those areas that need appropriate funding; as the Deputy and I agree on health, getting down the waiting lists, on education and skills. There is a programme in both of those departments which need to be properly funded but we should not assume that every pound we spend is spent well and is achieving value for money. In fact, his own leader has said that they, in

Reform, are against wasteful spending. Perhaps we can be aligned across this Assembly and being against wasteful spending and allocating the spending where the public want to see it.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

I am glad that the Minister for Treasury and Resources is proposing Reform Jersey's policy on reducing marginal rate income tax, even if he has not costed it, but the question really relates to getting Jersey back on track. I know this was a slogan for the Better Way candidates, official and unofficial, in the election and it remains one of the key pledges: get Jersey back on track. Does the Minister for Treasury and Resources believe that when it comes to the new hospital project we need to keep the new hospital project on track or is it his intention to try and derail it?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

Let us not argue about whose policy it is to reduce the marginal rate. He knows that previous Governments I have been in have had the policy intention to reduce marginal rates. We reduced it from 27 to 26 and we said at that time that we would support reducing it further. So perhaps it was Reform Jersey that have picked up a jolly good policy and we support it together. My intention is this: Islanders need and deserve a new hospital but I was very clear during the election that there should be a short period so that we can, once and for all, put into the public domain the expected costs of a hospital at Overdale, the costs that have been spent or the monies that have been spent to date.

[10:00]

If we are to look at other options then we must be open and transparent about what they cost as well. Because we are looking at a cost that is now 3 years old. We know what has happened in the market with regard to inflation. If we go back to previous iterations we are looking at costs which were 6 years old. We need to look at those costs and then find a way forward because I think most people in the community believe that £800 million is too much to spend on a hospital but we are where we are. We do need to keep in focus that we need a new hospital. The Deputy of course knows it is not the Minister for Treasury and Resources' job to decide on the hospital. It is the Minister for Infrastructure's job to deliver a hospital. and the Chief Minister designate has been quite clear that she will appoint an individual to do that very review.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

While it is not the Minister for Treasury and Resources' job, the Minister for Treasury and Resources is in a very strong position to either help or hinder that project in coalition with his Better Way Government. The question I would ask the Minister, if he is talking about messages on the doorstep, is that the message to me was very clear. They said: "We do not like particularly where the hospital is. We think it should have gone on the waterfront, and this is a mess that was made by the Gorst / Ozouf -led Government of 2014." But the hospital should go there now, we should stop wasting any more time and money, and it is much more important about what services go in the hospital rather than pursuing personal vendettas from the previous Government about site selection. Does the Minister not agree that that is also a message he heard in his big district of St. Ouen , St. Mary and St. Peter ?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

It will not surprise the Deputy to hear that the electors of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter were not quite so critical, as he might like to have been, of the past. But putting that to one side, the electors that I spoke to were very much split. They really do want a new hospital and they had story after story of the difficulties that they were encountering across the health service and they want that to be addressed probably as more of a priority than the new hospital. But we know that to retain and get new staff we do need a new hospital. I do not want to hinder the delivery of a hospital and if it does, when we have done all of that publication of the details and the costs, if that does show that we must

keep going at Overdale I believe there are still some other things that we can do to reduce the cost of what is currently proposed. There is some redesigning, I am not sure that you really need all of that upper floor, and I still remain unconvinced that you cannot have a more practical Jersey solution to the road issue. It is not black and white, it is not straightforward, as the Deputy wants Islanders to believe. We are going to, in this Assembly, have to make those difficult, finally-balanced decisions. But we must keep focused on delivering a new hospital.

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier South :

When this candidate was Chief Minister in the 2014 to 2018 Government I spent more hours than I care to recall sat in Philip Le Feuvre House with constituents as they cried their eyes out realising the reality that was about to hit them of Deputy Gorst 's £10 million austerity package, which cruelly targeted the most vulnerable in our society. My question to this candidate is: does he now accept that the policies he implemented in that term were wrong and will he assure this Assembly that as the Minister for Treasury and Resources he will not propose any Budget that targets the poor in the way he did when he was Chief Minister.

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

As the Deputy knows, the overall spending on income support during that period increased. The overall government expenditure remained flat or increased slightly just under the level of inflation. It was that prudence during - and Reform Jersey might smile - but it was that prudence during that period of Government that meant that the incoming Government was able to support Islanders and support businesses through all of the difficulties of the pandemic and COVID. We need to get back to prudence so that when we face challenges in the future, as we know we will, that we have in place reserves and sufficient funding to meet those challenges. As the Deputy also knows, in my opening statement I made a commitment that in the short term the priority of the Government has to be supporting the most vulnerable as we face the cost-of-living difficulties and the extreme squeeze on household budgets.

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

A very nice answer. The fact remains that his Government pursued policies which for some of the most vulnerable in our community their lives were made worse off. I sat in a room as people with disabilities were told they would be up to £600 a year worse off. I sat in a room with single parents to be told that they would be £2,000 a year worse off; so his words do not cut it. The question therefore is: if this candidate will not show any contrition for his past actions how can he expect Members of this Assembly and the wider public to expect that he will govern any differently now that he is likely to be the Minister for Treasury and Resources, and is this not a case of a leopard that has not changed its spots?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I am not quite sure how to answer that last question. The Deputy Bailiff :

Perhaps maybe a short answer because we are more than halfway through the time, and we have 10 Members who would like to ask questions. Perhaps Members could keep their questions reasonably short, and again if you could keep your answers short.

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I will endeavour to answer questions quickly. This is a new Government, the Chief Minister designate has set out her vision and I clearly wanted to and do fully support that vision. I will use the office of the Minister for Treasury and Resources to work for the priorities of the Government, not simply what my own view on any given issue might be.

7. Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier North :

With the move to independent taxation drawing near, will the Minister designate commit to a compensatory allowance for married couples and, if that is the case, how long does he intend it to last?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I have always been in favour of that. I do not have all the details in front of me so it is something that I would wish to review and get other Ministers' views on an appropriate way forward.

8. Deputy S.G. Luce of Grouville and St. Martin :

I thank the Deputy for his speech. It is absolutely right that we move ahead quickly with the minimum wage to the living wage and further, if necessary. But the Deputy will know that there is one particular industry in Jersey which really struggles with this, can he give the Assembly some assurance that he will find a way of supporting farmers, and particularly vegetable producers, so that their businesses can continue to be viable into the future when we get to the living wage?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

The short answer is yes but the reality of the situation facing our agricultural industry - and no doubt Deputy Morel will talk about this more fully - is not straightforward. In previous crises we might simply have thought of a short-term support to deal with the cost of fertiliser but, as the Deputy himself knows, there are many interlinked and difficult supply chain issues and changes for the agricultural economy, not just here in Jersey but right across Europe, some of that arising out of the war in Ukraine. I, together with Deputy Morel , stand ready to support farmers in what is going to be a very difficult and challenging period for them.

9. Deputy R.J. Ward :

Would the Minister designate rule out an increase in G.S.T. during his tenure? Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I listened carefully to what the Chief Minister designate said when she answered this question. I will work collectively and collegiately with the Ministers that this Assembly elects today, but I was clear in my opening statement that I will give a jolly good fight to ensure that it does not, and that is my personal position.

10. Deputy R.J. Ward : Is that a no?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

One is elected by this Assembly into a Council of Ministers. One may have one's own political philosophy which is, to answer the Deputy , a no. But it may be that other Ministers feel that that is the only option to them in the future. I am quite clear, my philosophy is no, and I will fight and fight to ensure that G.S.T. does not raise.

11. Deputy L. Feltham of St. Helier Central :

In his statement, the Deputy proposes to increase the tax thresholds and work towards reducing the marginal rate of tax by 1 per cent. Has the candidate costed this and how does the candidate intend to balance any budget deficit created by the decreases he is proposing?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I have to be careful what I say here because, of course, all potential candidates for any Ministerial role can go into the department and speak with officials and seek to understand what the implications are. The Deputy will not be surprised, it is rather counterintuitive however, that during a time of inflation the revenues that the Tax Department are receiving into their coffers increase and there is something that is unintended there. So you see an increase in revenue and tax take because of rising inflation at the very time when Islanders themselves are suffering in their own pockets. I believe that if not all then certainly the majority of measures that Ministers may want to see in a mini-Budget would be covered by that increase in tax take that the Revenue Department is already experiencing.

12. Deputy L. Feltham :

If there was to be a deficit in tax take, what would you do in order to balance the books and would that include departmental budget cuts?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

As the Deputy knows, if one is facing a deficit one has to look to the economics and not just the calculator and the economics always tell us that if we are facing a deficit then we should seek to address it over the medium-term period, anywhere between 3 to 5 years. Members will be having a briefing by the independent Fiscal Policy Panel I think later this week. They will be advising Members what their view is of the latest economic outlook for the medium but I would seek to deal with any proposed deficit, if that is indeed the case, I do not see why it should be; in fact I think it will be the reverse, along the lines of the advice from those independent economic advisers.

13. Deputy M.R. Ferey of St. Saviour :

My question to the Deputy is in relation to personal income tax and the transition from previous year basis to current year basis. Will the Deputy , as Minister for Treasury and Resources, commit to providing clear communications in relation to repayment options for individuals' 2019 tax liability?

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

I will, and I understand the difficulty that some Islanders have had in receiving the communications that they have from the Revenue Department. Some individuals very close to me have been confused when they themselves have read that communication. I, being tight, always take what I think is the in my best interest payment option, and there are some really good payment options for Islanders. They really do not need to be concerned and if they are concerned there are 2 things that I hope will happen. One is the communication that the Deputy has just outlined, but I am absolutely committed to getting individuals sitting at tables in Philip Le Feuvre House in person to address Islanders' concerns. There are quite a lot of concerns that need to be addressed when it comes to communicating tax changes.

14. Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity :

The Public Finances (Jersey) Law of 2019 requires the Council of Ministers to take into account the sustainable well-being of current and future generations when developing the Government Plan, but Jersey dropped 5 places in the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) Better Life Index in 2021, reflecting maybe a lack of correlation between words and strong action. How will the Deputy embed the sustainable well-being principles into decision-making when deciding how to spend Jersey's finances and how will the Deputy monitor the impact of these decisions?

[10:15]

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

As the Deputy knows, it was incorporated into the Public Finances (Jersey) Law and that was the first step to thinking about well-being. I think she is also right to indicate that while it is in the law, there is not good practice yet across departments thinking about it. That will be a job not exactly for the Minister for Treasury and Resources but for the Chief Minister and for the Council of Ministers. Perhaps I was trying to allude to it when I used the term "value for money", because value for money

is not just about the finances, it is about the deliverables of how we are spending the money. I am absolutely committed to making sure that we are delivering value for money and that includes Islanders' well-being. It cannot not.

The Deputy Bailiff :

The period for taking questions has completed and as there were no other nominations, I can confirm Deputy Gorst has been selected for appointment as Minister for Treasury and Resources. [Approbation]

3. The Minister for Children and Education The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move on to the Minister for Children and Education. I invite Deputy Moore to make her nomination.

Deputy K.L. Moore :

I am delighted to propose Deputy Gardiner for this position.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Thank you.

3.1   Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier North :

Today I stand before the Assembly and ask for Members' faith and trust in me to carry out the role of the Minister for Children and Education - I am really emotional - for the next 4 years. I would like to thank the Chief Minister designate for nominating me as she knows that I will be a very strong voice for children, teaching professionals, carers and families. I will not let it go and we will have an education and children's service that promotes educational excellence, economic growth and individual well-being. It is vital that all children have a fair opportunity to obtain the necessary skills and knowledge to prepare them for the uncertain future. None of us really knows the trends in globalisation and artificial intelligence and the world economy that will affect our future working lives. It is extremely important that we maintain and enhance a good standard of learning and education to secure our future. A well-rounded education makes a positive difference to the lives of children, young people, their families, carers and our community as a whole. Their future is our collective future. Our community is stronger when educated and mobile. Children and young people experienced major challenges, as did all our community, during the pandemic. The impacts that the pandemic had on children and young people's education, social and emotional well-being, physical and mental health and economic securities are recognised and we must provide support to ensure educational recovery and well-being recovery for all children after the pandemic. When I look into the whole portfolio of children and education and I think what are the major issues to address during this term, I realise there are many. I will raise some but probably there are more. We have on our hands, first, education reform that must progress, early years, and ensuring that the recommendations of the Care Inquiry are not forgotten; implementation of the inclusion review recommendations recently published; school funding and school infrastructure - we have lots of communication about it and it needs to be dealt with - social care reform; higher education funding; provision for children with special needs; vocational provision; skills agenda; mental health and well-being; safety online, at school and on the way to school; support for our teaching professionals and youth services; developing a digital educational strategy. There are all these to consider how we join them together. The most important secret is really to join them together and provide a well-balanced and holistic approach to the needs of our community. I have had meetings with Senator Vallois and with Deputy Wickenden, and I am grateful for their time in sharing with me their knowledge and their experience. I have learned from both of them. I am also grateful to the director general of the Children, Young People, Education and Skills Department for a very constructive meeting and answering my questions

about the challenges we all are facing. It is a big job and, as with any big job, we must prioritise. I have tried to put together what will be my first 100 days plan following the 100 days plan from the Chief Minister designate. Members know that I like structure, so I divided it into the 5 main priorities at strategic level and 5 operational things for the first 100 days. Obviously other things will come to my attention and I will need to adjust because it is always dynamic, as we know. In no specific order but for me recruitment is one of the top priorities within the Children and Education Department. I would like to develop a holistic workforce strategy and action plan for the department that will provide us with a workforce analysis and projection of the future needs based on the workforce demographic, turnover and recruitment plans. Plans are very important for me. My first meetings will be with head teachers, the Children's Commissioner, unions, the early age progress report, Parent Carer Forum and other partners. I recognise this is a challenge across government departments and businesses. We must have a stable and high moral workforce to deliver the best for our children. This leads me to the next strategic priority, which is skills. I am grateful that the Minister for Treasury and Resources in his speech elaborated that we would need to invest into skills. In the first 100 days I aim to complete plans and establish delivery timelines for the reorganisation of Skills Jersey functions across C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) and the length of Jersey, because skillsets come under my portfolio. This will support the Chief Minister designate's commitment to create a people and skills commission that will monitor the population, availability of accommodation, skills gaps and employment opportunities. These plans will introduce a barometer for how we will work. As somebody who has been present at the Assembly, we know that we are coming towards the Government Plan, which is the Budget, and very swiftly I need to understand and to put forward business plans with the Minister for Treasury and Resources. Again, I am grateful that it was indicated there will be support for education but we need the funding for early years care sufficiency, the outcomes of the education reform programme and inclusion review. There are big pieces of investment in education coming and I will fight for them. Another strategic priority is to develop and start implementation of a participation and engagement plan for children and young people. This will ensure that the voice of our service users is heard and will be at the heart of developing the policies. On the strategic level, develop a community partnership group involving C.Y.P.E.S., Health and Community Services, Housing, States of Jersey Police, the Youth Service, Customer and Local Services, Parishes and Honorary Police. It will be a focused approach with partners to address some of the antisocial behaviour issues we are facing and missing children activity. Now, if I go into the operational matters, we must act on previous States Assembly decisions. We have some decisions that were not acted on. Also recommendations from the Public Accounts Committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Scrutiny Panels. One is maintenance of the estate. We now have summer holidays and this is the best time to fix and prepare schools for the next year. As a matter of urgency, we must address all fire and safety risks within the schools. Also we need to sort out the building heating issues and the Greenfields improvement plan and others. I know that it is not all the same but we are talking about the urgent matters for the first days. Finalise the implementation plan for C.A.M.H.S. (Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service) mental health and well-being - I would like to also see how it is set going forward - finalise the St. Helier Primary School estate report to be presented to the Assembly; finalise the higher education review report to be presented to the Assembly; ensure the funding formula, whatever it is now, is presented and I assume that I would need to work on it a bit more but at least whatever has been done will be shared in the Assembly in the future. So what is really important, we are all connected to education, we all have personal views and I ask Members to connect, to contribute, to express, to develop the dialogue. This is important. I have already sought interviews with an executive team and if elected I would like to work together with Deputy Doublet and the Constable of St. Peter and embrace other skills that other junior Ministers might be willing to contribute. We must work together to make our Island the best possible place for our children and young people to study, play, grow and create their future. I want to bring a renewed passion and leadership to our

current Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills. I will seek help to meet all the challenges and current needs of our community. Thank you for your questions.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to a period of 20 minutes of questions and the first question is from Deputy Southern .

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The potential Minister says that she is passionate about education, which is nothing more than a cliché. She then goes on to say that good standards of education make a positive difference to the lives of children, young people and their families. What single action will she take to ensure that good standards are maintained and introduced in our schools as a priority?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank Deputy Southern for his question because I am passionate and I worked in the previous term with schools in my district and I made improvements. I think about the actions and there are several things that we must address. The first thing is to ensure that we have sufficient funding for education that will allow head teachers in the schools to make the difference and to lead the school in the way they think is right, obviously with oversight from the department.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

But the question was about actions and does not, if you do not mind me saying so, answer what actions will she take to ensure that these good standards are maintained and promoted in her service.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I refer the Deputy to my action plan that I have just outlined in my speech. I have 5 strategic and 5 operational priorities for the first 100 days and I welcome the Deputy to hold me to account at the 100 days if I manage to deliver what I promised in my speech.

3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Following on from that speech, the candidate for Minister has referred to funding for the schools. Can we take it, therefore, as a given that she has a categoric assurance from the Minister for Treasury and Resources designate that she will be getting that funding?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Deputy for the question and I think it is a really important question. The moment that I decided to stand for this position and asked for this position we did have a discussion with the Chief Minister designate. As the Minister for Treasury and Resources indicated, he also aligned with the vision of the Chief Minister designate. My hope and my trust at this point is that I will get the funding that I need. It is important really to indicate that I was not party to the current funding formula. I need to see what the current funding formula is. I would suggest that for the Government Plan of 2023, the Government Plan that we will debate, we follow the funding formula that was specified but I personally would look to see if all special needs are met and we might have different updated funding from about September 2023.

[10:30]

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

There was quite a lot of equivocating in that answer. It is a very clear question that could be answered yes or no and without a yes we can only assume it is a no. So I guess I have to reiterate the question, which is: has she had that very clear, categorical assurance from the Minister for Treasury and Resources designate that she will receive every penny of the funding that she needs to implement the admirable vision for education that she has outlined in her speech, which I am sure every Member of this Assembly would want to get behind but will want to know that it has got funding? So, yes or no, has the Minister for Treasury and Resources designate given her the categorical assurance that he will be signing the money over to her to make it happen?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I have an assurance that there will be investment in education. We never spoke about the sums.

5. Deputy R.J. Ward :

May I congratulate the Minister designate and may I ask the question: what is her opinion on the 14- plus transfer system?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Deputy for his question. It is something that was brought to attention in the funding review and we must open the consultation. I think it is something that I would need to address during my term. I would like to have meetings with the head teachers, I would like to have an understanding from the parents and I probably would be likely to go to wider consultation, because 14-plus was here for 60 years, I would say, or 40 years or maybe more. I was not on the Island when it was introduced. I realise this is part of Jersey culture that I respect. At the same time, I know the difficulties that it brings and I can reassure the Assembly I will work on it, I will do the research and I will bring to the Council of Ministers and to the Assembly options around 14-plus education.

6. Deputy R.J. Ward :

Given that the cost from the independent funding review of the 14-plus transfer system is £781,000 per year, does the Minister designate not believe that this is money better spent elsewhere in funding education in other state schools?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I think it is a really good point and that this is a reason that it will be part of the review. We need to see the provision between Highlands and Hautlieu, because we are talking about Hautlieu, and how it can be spread around the whole Island to all other secondary schools. So a big piece of work needs to be done and it is connecting research, it is connecting funding, and it is connecting people and their feelings around 14-plus education. I cannot commit what I am going to do with 14-plus education without making clear research and learning around it.

7. Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat of St. Helier North :

What is the Deputy 's preferred site for a new school for St. Helier ? Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank Deputy Le Hegarat for her question. I think that as Members know I was the person who voted for the position because I thought that the site needs to be redeveloped for a school. For the people who were in the Assembly in the bridging Island Plan, it was the States' decision about developing the Gas site as another primary school. I think we still will be missing another primary school in St. Helier . Basically what I am going to do .. the review I need to see because none of us have seen the review, none of us have seen the report. I requested this report several times in this Assembly. The moment that I am presented with the report and I look through the report, I reassure the Assembly that I am presenting this .. I would say give me time until September to look at it. It will be an open debate and we, as the Assembly, can decide the way forward, based on the evidence that will be presented.

8. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :

Deputy Southern is quite right, we hear many clichés in this Assembly. However, I really feel that the Deputy has spoken with enthusiasm and passion this morning and she has done that every time she has spoken about education and young people, to be honest. But she has given us a very long list of jobs that she has got to deal with; a very, very long list. Whether they are all achievable or not, we can only hope that they are. She has also given us a commitment to meeting with third parties to enable them to work with her to deliver on fulfilling those jobs that she has identified. I believe her passion and commitment is far more than we have had from previous Ministers for Education and regrettably the former Minister chose to not to respond to my 4 or 5 emails requesting a meeting with him to discuss a very concerning matter about the withdrawal of funding.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are you going to come to the question, Connétable ? The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I am going to come to my question, Sir. In fact, I am there now. My question to the Deputy is: what commitment will she give to Members of this Assembly that she will make time to meet with them and address their concerns when she has such a long list of jobs to do and she has already committed to meeting third parties? Will she answer emails and arrange meetings?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Constable of St. Lawrence for her kind words and the question. I commit to responding to emails, maybe not within 24 hours, maybe it will take me 48 hours. My previous record of 3 years in the Assembly shows that I do find time for people and for stakeholders and I will definitely find time for Members and other parties, because what I believe in .. I do not have all the knowledge. I do not know what is happening on the ground. I am physically not able to know what is happening on the ground and the only way to find a better way .. it will never be perfect, nobody can make perfect decisions, but at least I can reassure the Constable and the Assembly that I will do my best to listen to all parties and to find a compromise way forward, because that is what I am here for, to listen, to understand and to make a decision.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

Following on about the selective education system we have in Jersey, could the candidate remind us of how Jersey fares in terms of its fee-paying versus non-fee-paying split? More generally, can she state whether she thinks the balance is right in Jersey about that split between fee-paying schools and non-fee-paying schools?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Deputy for the question. First of all, I need to declare that my daughter is in a fee-paying school and she was in this school before I was first elected as a Deputy . In terms of the current arrangements for the fee-paying schools, I recognise this is an extremely sensitive area and this is why we need to have a discussion with all stakeholders about the education law. At the end of the day, our education law is 20-plus years old and I want to have a proper conversation, a proper dialogue about how education will play over for the next 20 years going into the future. I know also that the funding review raised an option about a means-tested base, and again it is something that needs to be discussed with a much wider public engagement.

10. Deputy M. Tadier :

I was hoping the candidate might provide a bit more detail. As I understand, having previously served on the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel, the split in Jersey, obviously depending .. it varies from primary to secondary but there is about 42 per cent of students in fee-paying schools versus perhaps the U.K. (United Kingdom), France, Europe, which is less than 10 per cent. Given that is quite a basic and I would have thought fundamental philosophy that any candidate for Minister for Education would have thought about, can she tell us what her feelings are about the Jersey split? Should we have more fee-paying; should we have less fee-paying; is it divisive; is it okay as it is; is it something we need to tweak? What is her vision regarding fee-paying versus non-fee-paying and the effect it has on the overall education system?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I was not on the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel but I think that memorising all the statistics .. it is important that I have statistics but as a Minister I will need to have a team who will help me with the statistics. I am not sure about the statistics, they might be right, they might be wrong. I do not know about the numbers. What is really important for me to tell the Assembly is the discussion needs to be held with the wider public. Saying this, it will take more time to rearrange fee-paying schools. For me, my priority is we have these discussions to ensure that non-fee-paying schools receive funding, receive resources and teachers receive a curriculum that will be made even better because it feels like the non-fee-paying schools are not that good and this is the reason for people going to the fee-paying schools, but I can reassure if you look at Les Quennevais, which is a non-fee-paying school, and the curriculum there from what I know is outstanding and the children are pretty happy to stay there through all their education. So we must really concentrate on how we are bringing investment in the non-fee-paying schools to support them and to allow the same level of education as in the fee-paying schools so it will be completely identical.

11. Deputy H. Jeune :

The inclusive education review recommends the Government to define inclusive education. How would the Deputy define inclusive education?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you for the question, because it is not really defining education. It is saying that inclusive education needs to be defined and it is my task and the task of this Assembly to finalise this definition.

12. Deputy H. Jeune :

A supplementary is if the Deputy could maybe set out a few pointers to say where she thinks inclusive education would be; her priorities?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

For me, it is very simple: every child gets whatever the child needs. There are so many needs and there are so many children and we need to look individually and to create services, support, tools to support the individual child so that the child will have an opportunity to get to the best of his or her ability.

13. Deputy M. Andrews of St. Helier North :

Would the candidate be able to articulate in terms of the low level of education expenditure as it currently stands and how during this term education expenditure can be increased?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Deputy for his question and he is completely right, funding for non-fee-paying schools in Jersey is much lower than high performance jurisdictions. The achievements of children in Jersey, even with lower funding, are better than children in, for example, the U.K. It is a significant gap and, as I mentioned previously when I was answering previous questions, we will work to increase the funding and bring funding to the necessary level.

14. Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity :

If I can congratulate the Deputy and my question is: does she believe that education should be a statutory consultee to the planning process? We are all expecting a lot of new accommodation to be coming down the track very soon and we need to ensure the Government's aim of making safer walking and cycling routes to school important so that parents are not travelling around the Island delivering their children to school for their education. Would she agree with me that that is something important that needs to be addressed?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Connétable and I completely agree. If Members remember, I brought the amendments to the bridging Island Plan to ensure that infrastructure planning applications will ensure that the educational needs of the areas will be met. It is absolutely necessary.

[10:45]

15. Deputy L. Feltham :

A couple of years ago I had to sit in a room with teaching unions and civil service unions and in order to fund decent pay increases for our school staff we were made to look for budget cuts in schools and reduce the school budgets. I believe that the process was called gain sharing. Can I get the assurance from the Deputy that she will not use gain sharing or cut school budgets in order to provide cost of living and decent pay increases for the staff in her department?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I thank the Deputy for her questions. I think that as a Minister for Education it is important for me to ensure that education is sufficiently funded. Personally, I think that we must work together and I will put extra pressure on the Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Chief Minister and the States Employment Board to recognise the hard work of education. I will meet with unions and work with them collaboratively if they approach me. I responded to unions; we have a memo exchange because I cannot see that we can progress without proper funding. The cost of living, as the Deputy will understand, goes across the whole Council of Ministers and we need to address housing and other issues for the teachers.

16. Deputy L. Feltham :

Can I get the Deputy 's assurance that she will not support cuts to schools' budgets and that also she will implement the findings of the school funding review?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, I can assure that.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy Mézec , you might get one question in.

17. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Okay, I will try to be very quick then. The question is: what tangible action will she take to address any of the outstanding recommendations from the Independent Jersey Care Inquiry?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Very quickly, I think the Chief Minister designate indicated about a public ombudsman and this is one of the first things that needs to be introduced.

The Deputy Bailiff :

That brings the time for questions to an end and I can confirm Deputy Gardiner has been selected for appointment as Minister for Children and Education. [Approbation]

4. The Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture The Deputy Bailiff :

We will now move on to the Assembly appointing a Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture. Deputy Moore , would you like to make your nomination?

Deputy K.L. Moore :

Deputy Morel is my nominee for the candidate for this role.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

4.1   Deputy K.F. Morel of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity :

It is an incredible honour and privilege to stand in this Assembly to put forward my case for being elected Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture. I am humbled by the faith shown in me by the Chief Minister designate. I can assure every Member of this Assembly that I will be tireless in finding the optimal conditions that will enable Jersey's vibrant economy to soar, reaching new heights that in turn will enable us all to prosper and thrive. If appointed, I will be in the fortunate position to have been handed over a strong department in good order, thanks to the efforts of Deputy Farnham . From the team in the Ministerial Support Unit to the officers in the department itself, the Department for the Economy is staffed by talented people who want Jersey to succeed economically. They understand that it is through the hard work of Islanders in our economy that we are able to provide the public services from which all of us benefit. For those of us born since the first seeds of Jersey's world-leading financial services sector were sown, it is perhaps too easy for us to take for granted the overall level of wealth that has been created in Jersey and the incredibly high standard of living that this has generated, both of which are far higher than one could ordinarily expect for a tiny Island on the edge of Europe. I used the word "overall" to describe the high level of wealth and quality of life in Jersey purposely. While these are true descriptions of the results of our economic performance over the decades, there is no doubt in my mind, or I believe in the minds of my fellow States Members, that these measures of economic performance hide a reality, which is that increasing numbers of hard-working Islanders are struggling to make ends meet and as a result are questioning whether Jersey is the best place for them to live and work. The reasons for this situation are many and varied but there is one baseline cause that can be summed up quite simply, Jersey is pricing itself out of the market. The cost of living is rising so steeply, driven initially by the home-grown problem of the lack of accommodation and now added to by massive global geopolitical events, that some Islanders sadly now see their futures elsewhere. Stopping this unwanted trend will be the overarching priority for me should I gain this role. As Minister for Economic Development, I will strive to create a sustainable economic environment that enables all Islanders to see their futures in Jersey and I will do so by helping them unleash the formidable power of Jersey's entrepreneurial spirit. Children and young people must be able to see their futures here. Not only do they need to believe that they will be able to afford to live in their own comfortable homes in adulthood but they also need outlets for their diverse skills, abilities and interests. They rightly want and need an Island in which they can realise their incredible potential, and so I will continue the work that I have begun with the delivery of the heritage strategy, the culture and arts strategy, the marine and rural economy strategy and I will finish the work that has already started on a tourism strategy, all aimed at supporting, growing and diversifying our economy and in so doing creating a wide range of exciting careers that will help young Islanders believe that Jersey is the place in which they can live fulfilling and prosperous lives. Jersey's economic success has always been founded upon our entrepreneurial spirit. We are enterprising because a small Island community must constantly innovate to succeed. Our financial services industry is an incredible example of just how effective we can be when we keep our minds open to new possibilities. As Minister for Economic Development, I will work with the Chief Minister and my fellow Ministers to ensure we create the social, environmental and economic conditions needed to enable Islanders to have the means, skills, confidence and resilience that will allow them to identify opportunities and innovate solutions that not only meet the needs of

our own community but which can also be exported, selling to clients and customers around the world. It is hard to express the immense pride that I feel when I think about our Island's businesses and social enterprises. From world-leading financial services to a tourism destination that cannot fail to impress, from innovative co-operatives that encourage the growth of a sustainable circular economy to digital tools that transform the world of recruitment or challenge the culture of private car ownership, from artisan glassblowers, wood and iron workers to premium quality dairy, potato and shellfish exporters, from actors, musicians, singers and artists to lawyers, accountants and fund administrators, there are so many examples of incredible individuals and organisations in Jersey that have transformed ideas into reality and through hard work have grown them into successful enterprises. I want to support and build upon the outstanding level of enterprise that we have here and in so doing help us address the enormous challenges of carbon neutrality and a growing and ageing population. As Minister for Economic Development, I will work to ensure that our economic environment encourages sustainable enterprise. I will do so in the collaborative way that I have demonstrated as an Assistant Minister, listening to and working with stakeholder organisations, including arm's-length organisations and the private sector, to make sure the Government is investing in the right areas and doing all they can to make it easy to work and do business in Jersey while providing the necessary safeguards that we all need to help our economy thrive. I have spoken of my desire to work in pursuit of a truly sustainable economy and it is important that I explain my understanding of that term. A sustainable economy is one that balances our economic needs with our social needs and environmental resources. It is an economy that is long-lasting, precisely because it grows in step with the ability of the Island to maintain it without plundering our social and environmental capital. Unfortunately, today our economy is not on a sustainable path. Weakening productivity means that we are having to grow the population in order to maintain our economic performance. That, of course, pushes up the price of accommodation for both people and organisations. High commercial rents are a strong inhibitor of enterprise and so I will work with the Ministers for Planning and Infrastructure to make more economic land available, particularly around La Collette but also on a smaller scale in States-owned properties like the markets or Fort Regent, creating incubator work spaces that give entrepreneurs the opportunity to start businesses without the fear of creating large debts should their ideas fail. In the rural economy where land availability is decreasing, I will explore the possibility of a sustainable land trust that can help the farmers and smallholders that I am committed to supporting work the land they need to improve our food security while constantly improving their environmental performance. To address the cost of living, I will encourage the J.C.R.A. (Jersey Competition Regulatory Authority) to ensure markets are operating efficiently and will work with the Minister for External Relations to improve resilience, drive down costs and find new markets by opening up trade with France and Europe. The need to decouple population growth from economic growth means that as Minister for Economic Development I will need a laser sharp focus on increasing productivity. We will need to build on the productivity support scheme, working with Jersey Business, Digital Jersey and the technology accelerator fund to encourage organisations to invest in or innovate technologies that create growth without the need for more people. Across all sectors, Jersey's enterprises need to be fully technologically enabled because this is the only way we will be able to achieve an economy less reliant on population growth. Productivity improvements will also require a commitment to reviewing the impact of regulation and bureaucracy. When interacting with Government, the experience should be speedy and easy. This includes providing tenders for the supply of goods to Government. Too often, government processes are a burden on organisations and I will work with the Chief Minister and other Ministers to rectify this. I also believe Government can play a leading role in encouraging local businesses by procuring as many goods and services as possible through the Island's economy while, of course, ensuring that

good value is received. The fruits of this work to boost productivity will be seen in the medium term. In the short term, however, we will need to help organisations find the people they need today. This will mean working with the Minister for Home Affairs, the Minister for External Relations and H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Work Advisory Group) or its successor to modify the work permit system

so we can more easily attract the people we need. With an eye on the longer term, we have to develop a system that funds lifelong learning so that Islanders are able to gain the skills they require to remain economically active throughout the different stages of their lives. As Minister for Economic Development, I will work with the Minister for Education and organisations such as Skills Jersey and Highlands to develop a lifelong learning system that enables Islanders to reach their full potential. In summary, Jersey is an enterprising Island community and if we are to remain prosperous then it will be because of the strength of our community combined with our entrepreneurial spirit. Jersey's Government will only be able to meet the challenges of carbon neutrality, achieving a stable population and supporting the healthcare needs of an ageing population with a diverse, innovative, skilled, technologically advanced, sustainable and enterprising private sector. In my view, it is the job of Government to provide the right conditions to enable Jersey's companies and social enterprises to thrive. By doing so, I firmly believe that we can develop a socially and environmentally sustainable economy that is able to support all Islanders throughout our lives and so enable us to pass Jersey on to future generations who will be able to build upon our success. This vision is dependent upon us dealing with today's economic challenges, most notably staff and skill shortages, decreasing productivity, a lack of suitable employment land and the rising cost of living. Dealing with these challenges, while at the same time building the foundations of  a truly sustainable, long-term economic future, will be the dual focus of my work should the Assembly appoint me to serve as the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to questions for up to 20 minutes.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The potential Minister has described his medium and long-term vision as dependent upon dealing with today's economic challenges, most notably staff and skill shortages and decreasing productivity. What new actions will this Minister take to deal with staff and skill shortages and to arrest the 20- year decline in productivity figures?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

One of the first things we need to do is to look at the work permit system. I am committed to working with the Minister for Home Affairs and with H.A.W.A.G. to make sure that we have permits that are attractive for people to come here. It is generally accepted that 9 months is not working. We need to look at that and that is something that I will do immediately.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Will that not immediately contradict his aim of dealing with the influx of workers to our economy, reducing economic growth by increasing numbers, which he said he was against?

[11:00]

Deputy K.F. Morel :

If the Deputy had actually listened to the speech I just made, he will have heard me say that there are short-term pressing issues and there are medium and long-term more visionary issues, which we want to achieve. We want to get to a point where Jersey's economy is not dependent on constant population growth. That is the medium to long-term vision that I want to try to achieve but this is not simple. Let nobody be under any illusion, decoupling economic growth from population growth is going to be an incredibly hard task but it is a challenge that I am willing to rise to. In the short term, however, if the Deputy had been listening he will have heard that we today, as we stand today, have an issue with staff shortages. We know this and we need to deal with that straightaway. There is no point cutting off our nose to spite our face. We want to decouple economic growth and population growth and we need an economy that survives to that point. So today I will be dealing with staff shortages but in the long term I will be seeking to take away that need for population growth on our economic growth.

3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Given the contribution made by private jets to carbon emissions, does the candidate agree that there is no place in Jersey for an aircraft registry?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The question of the aircraft registry is one that I was addressing before the election and it is one that I have committed to resolving by March 2023. It is interesting and quite understandable that the Deputy has linked the harm caused by aviation in terms of environmental harm caused by aviation to Jersey's economy. I am very interested in the possibility of us having a sustainable aviation industry. Can Jersey lead the way? Can Jersey attract businesses here that are focused on developing aircraft that do not pollute in the way that they currently do? That is a question that I am asking the department to resolve by the beginning of next year, by March next year. If the Deputy then asked me again come April, I should be able to give him a more definite answer as to what we are doing with the aircraft registry.

4. The Connétable of Trinity :

I am really encouraged to hear the candidate's support for the agricultural industry and ensuring that we do everything we can to maintain our own food security. But with that in mind, would he see that there is any opportunity to break what I see as the harmful link between the major U.K. supermarkets who are so dictatorial to our local agricultural industry by saying that: "We will not pay you more than 9p a kilo for the carrots, otherwise we are going to bring them in from the U.K." and the damage that that is doing to our industry? Does he feel that there is any scope to address those issues?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That is an incredibly pertinent question. The power of supermarkets to dictate the price paid to farmers is something that I find incredible. I had a discussion about this recently when somebody quite rightly said supermarkets are amazing in the way that they centralise. If you want a central place to get your food, that in itself is incredible, but the flipside is that they dictate prices that sometimes can be not just low but below the cost of production, which is outrageous. I will do everything I can and that includes supporting farmers financially to ensure that they get the returns they need. How can I break the supermarkets' grip on the market? I am not sure that is something I can do personally but one of the things I also mentioned there was opening up trade links with France and Europe. This will provide greater competition and will enable us to access goods, and sell goods as well, which do not depend on just the supermarkets in the U.K. By widening our market, we can reduce the impact of supermarkets when they price everything at this level.

5. The Connétable of Trinity :

Obviously we do have some protection for our dairy industry by not allowing the importing of raw milk, so perhaps there is some scope to investigate that a bit further?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am always willing to investigate many areas but, of course, in this case the issue might be the cost of living, which is the other downside to protection. We do have law that enables us to address particularly the potato export market and we have already been looking at that and talking with the exporters as to how they can use the existing law to increase the price of the potatoes selling to the U.K. and we will continue to do that.

6. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

Our fishing industry faces unprecedented competition from our French neighbours, not only who are fishing in our waters but are receiving subsidies from their Government. How would the Minister elect propose to deal with that?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am pleased to say to the Connétable that the marine economy framework launched just before the election creates different areas for support for the marine economy. We are going to be looking to create a marine economy development fund, a marine economy sustainability initiative scheme, as well as increasing the fishing vessel safety scheme that provides support to enable fishing vessels to meet safety requirements. We are already looking at how we can support our marine economy, which is something we have not been doing financially for years and that is something I am committed to continuing.

7. The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Does the Minister propose to explore the export market in different ways, given that we are controlled at present by France?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Absolutely. One of the really important pieces of work for the marine economy framework is developing new markets. It is absolutely an export industry. We saw during COVID how the Island tried to help and protect fishermen by buying as much fish as they could locate, but we also need to sell to a wider market. We do sell to France but also to Spain and Italy. Southern Europe is a great market for our shellfish and we need to develop that, so that is something that I am really keen to do.

8. Deputy M. Tadier :

Si on me permettra de poser la question en Français, dans la langue de Molière, parce que je sais que le Député est également francophone. Est-ce que le Député est de l'opinion qu'on devrait faire plus d'efforts et plus de liens économiques avec la France – la Normandie et la Bretagne, par exemple – et qu'est-ce qu'il fera lui-même pour soutenir ces liens et pour les augmenter ?[1]

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Merci pour la question. Oui, c'est vrai, je voudrais bien ouvrir les liens avec la France, la Normandie et la Bretagne. Je vais travailler avec le Ministre des relations extérieures pour faire les choses comme ça. Même maintenant je parle avec le comité de jumelage de St. Laurent pour ouvrir les liens économiques avec Barneville-Carteret. Donc à chaque étage de nos relations actuellement, nous pouvons rouvrir ces liens comme ça.[2]

The Deputy Bailiff :

Could you give a summary of your response in English? It is appropriate for Members who are not familiar ..

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Of course, Sir, absolutely. I said that I have committed to working with the Minister for External Relations to open up links with France, particularly Brittany and Normandy, and that I am already working even at levels like with our twinning committee in St. Lawrence to open up links with Barneville-Carteret, with which St. Lawrence is twinned. So it is at all these levels, all the way from twinning at the Parish level all the way through to the Government level, that we can open up these links with France.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I thank the future Minister for his response? Does he agree that it is important that we in this Assembly remember we are a French-speaking Assembly and also that Government remember that we are not just a north-facing Island but that we have a continent and a country to the south and to the east just make sure we get the directions correct and that there is a whole wealth of opportunity, not just economically but culturally, and that we need to build on that for future generations?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, I will stamp my feet to that. I know it was a question but it is one that I wholeheartedly agree with the Deputy and I am really pleased he also mentioned culture and arts. It is absolutely right, economically as well as culturally there are so many opportunities between Jersey, St. Malo, Rennes. There are festivals that are on in Brittany and in Normandy. We should be part of these festivals. I really want to work on these areas because it is the way that culture helps us make friends. It is very simple.

10. Deputy R. Kovacs of St. Saviour :

Is the Deputy concerned about the reduction of visitor accommodation through the multiple closure of hotels over recent years and how can it be addressed?  

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Market forces have meant that various hotels have closed and it is a concern, but I also agree that it is not just a question of visitor numbers. It is also a question of visitor spend, the value of each visitor to our economy. If we can increase the amount that is being spent by visitors when they come here, that in itself will help us deal with the reduction in bed numbers that we have seen. However, I will go back to my twinning mentioned earlier. One of the discussions I have been having with people in Normandy already is about hotels that might be interested in investing in Jersey, hotels that come from France. Those are conversations that I want to continue because there are so many hotels, hotel chains, et cetera, that would suit us here in Jersey. We need to look as many places as we can and invite people to see whether they want to invest in the Island in that way.

11. Deputy R. Kovacs :

Thank you for the response. Given the reduction of visitor accommodation, should the Government investment in Visit Jersey be reviewed to ensure adequate return on investment?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Visit Jersey has done an amazing job, particularly through COVID and out of COVID, in marketing the Island, but the Deputy touches on a really important point. When it comes to arm's length organisations, we need to constantly review their effectiveness and their value for money, so that is something I will certainly be doing. I could not tell you at this moment whether it would be keeping funding the same, reducing or increasing. It depends on reviewing that value and seeing what that value delivers.

12. Deputy H. Jeune :

During the election campaign, the Deputy was talking about cutting red tape as part of invigorating and supporting business. Cutting red tape has been used in some instances by Governments around the world to roll back environmental and sustainable standards, health and safety standards and employees' rights. How will the Deputy ensure that the streamlining of bureaucracy to support small businesses will not weaken standards and, in fact, enhance them?  

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The Deputy asks a really important question because, too often, the threat of cutting red tape is used by some to say: "Oh, you are just trying to remove protections." Absolutely not. We have really important protections in all areas of our economy, whether it is from employment to health and safety to product standards. They need to be maintained, but what needs to change is the way Government interacts with these businesses. I have seen first-hand how difficult it can be just to get the most simple things done when you are trying to do business in Jersey, not because the regulation is wrong but the way we are implementing the bureaucracy around that regulation. Those are the things which are wrong and those are the particular areas I would like to concentrate on.

13. Deputy L. Feltham :

The Deputy made reference to arm's length organisations that are in receipt of funding from the Government. How will the Deputy ensure that those organisations are well governed?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Another really important question. Arm's length organisations are entrusted by Government to carry out certain tasks. They are entrusted in that way, and obviously it was a trend that occurred over the last 15 years or so, because they have an independence which enables them to be nimbler and move more quickly than Government, and that is the right thing. The Government's role, then, is twofold: one, it is to ensure governance, and that means constantly speaking to the boards of these arm's length organisations, which is something I was doing as Assistant Minister where I had delegated responsibility. But it is also to ensure they are strategically aligned with the overall strategy or policy of Government, and so that means working with the Minister for Treasury and Resources, it means working with other Ministers and the A.L.O.s (arm's length organisations) themselves to ensure that there is strategic alignment to the work they do. So, those 2 things: governance .. for me, that is incredibly important and it includes things like making sure that board members do not serve 12 or 15 years on the same board. You need to refresh boards. You need to have diversity within boards as well, and those are things that I have championed in this Assembly and I will continue to do so as Minister.

14. Deputy L. Feltham :

Thank you for your answer. Some of those organisations deliver grants programmes on behalf of Government. How does the Deputy intend to ensure that those grants programmes are well-managed and that grants get given to the right people and that there is an assurance that there is a process around how those grants are given and that Government K.P.I.s (key performance indicators) are met?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The Deputy is right, there are a number of grants programmes. ArtHouse Jersey is one where they give grants to organisations to deliver cultural offerings in Jersey. Another one, very obviously, is the technology accelerator fund, which has just been passed by this Assembly. It is about understanding how they are doing this, seeing where the money goes and the returns on that money. It will not be possible in the first instance to see whether grants given by any one A.L.O. to any one organisation is right on the surface. What you need to do is to see the delivery of the promises that

were made to the A.L.O. Did that cultural offering take place? Did the company that was funded by the technology accelerator fund deliver what it was meant to deliver? So, time tells, but the important thing from a Minister's perspective is to keep reviewing and to keep asking the questions.

[11:15]

15. Deputy C. Curtis of St. Helier Central :

A big problem for business is staff recruitment and retention. Businesses cannot get staff because people cannot afford housing, specifically private rentals. So does the Deputy support controls like banning above-inflation rent increases?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I do not have any one particular medicine to give to the issue of high rents, but I am committed to working with all fellow Ministers to ensure that we intervene in the market in the best way possible to make sure that rents in Jersey are affordable.

16. Deputy M. Andrews :

In relation, say, to supply side economics, so the level of low taxation, and also capital investment incentives in the economy to try and procure greater levels of economic growth, do you think supply side economics can actually generate sufficient levels of growth in the medium term?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Growth is generated by activity, growth is generated by hard work and growth is generated by innovation. Those are the ways that Jersey will ensure that we continue to maintain growth in our economy. As far as supply, Jersey's supply side economics has relied principally on the supply of people because we are a knowledge sector and principally service industry. That is the area that I believe, as I have talked about, we need to decouple this idea of economic growth and population growth. So, in that sense, the supply side economics work, but when your supply is constantly people and that is how you are growing, we need to change that. So, is it working at the moment? It is causing us problems, that is for sure.

17. Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I was going to ask this question of the Minister for Treasury and Resources, but we ran out of time. The co-funded payroll support scheme and other business measures introduced during the pandemic provided a lifeline to businesses. Will the Minister agree to work to persuade the Minister for Treasury and Resources and others on the Council of Ministers to introduce an appeals scheme for those businesses that might have fallen foul, shall we say, of the technical issues related to the auditing of the scheme? The Minister for Treasury and Resources can just simply nod if he agrees with that as well.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I was just going to say I could not see whether the Minister for Treasury and Resources was nodding or not from my position. Absolutely, there is no question, the co-funded payroll scheme was superb. On behalf of the whole Assembly and Jersey's economy and the Island I would like to thank Senator Farnham and all those .. or Deputy Farnham now, and all those who came up with the idea of the co- funded payroll scheme. It kept Jersey's businesses in operation and it kept people paid throughout a period when it was not possible to work. But, unfortunately, the legacy of the scheme has been sullied by, in my view, the inappropriate overzealousness of Government in its bureaucratic aims, effectively, and so there is no question in my mind we do need an appeal system. Personally - and I speak personally, not as a member of the Council of Ministers - I just think we should stop asking people for the money back. It is that simple.

18. Deputy M. Scott of St. Brelade :

Will the Deputy be taking forward the Economic Council's New Perspectives report and, if so, how? Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am grateful and I know Deputy Farnham as the previous Minister for Economic Development was also grateful for the work of the Economic Council and their New Perspectives report. The report covers 5 principal areas and everything it says makes sense in that. I believe that I have already talked about the ways in which we will develop a more sustainable technologically-enabled economy and there is no question in my mind I am committed to doing so.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you. That completes the period of questions for Deputy Morel and accordingly he has been selected for appointment as Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture. [Approbation]

5. The Minister for the Environment The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move on to the selection of the Minister for the Environment. Deputy Moore , can we have your nomination?

Deputy K.L. Moore :

My nomination is for Deputy Renouf .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you. Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

5.1   Deputy J. Renouf of St. Brelade :

I want to start by saying that I am deeply honoured to be nominated for the role of Minister for the Environment. As anyone who knows me will tell you, the environment is a passion of mine. It has been for decades, so no Ministerial brief could be closer to my heart. I want to talk first about why I believe I am qualified for the role of Minister for the Environment, then about my vision for the role, and finally a few words about a couple of specific areas of policy. First, in terms of expertise, I have a degree and PhD in geography, which bears witness to the depth and longevity of my interest in environmental matters. This passion carried through into my career and, in particular, when I started making science documentaries at the BBC. For example, I was involved in almost all of BBC Television's programmes about climate change over a 20-year period, up to and including David Attenborough's recent "Climate Change - The Facts". Since coming back to Jersey, I have given public talks on climate change. I have spoken in primary schools about the environment and I have been a member of the council of the National Trust. I love this Island's natural beauty. I am who I am because of the time I spent exploring the Island's coastline and countryside when I was growing up. Those experiences have helped shaped my vision for an environmental agenda in Jersey. So, what is my vision? I believe we should aim high. Jersey should be a beacon of how to make environmental protection work with a thriving economy, how to reduce carbon emissions in a socially just way, and how to make the environment a central part of a better lives agenda. As one voter said to me, if we cannot do green in Jersey, then where can we? I believe that protecting the environment is as close to an uncontroversial ambition as you can get in Jersey politics, but what does it mean in practice? I believe that the environmental agenda gives us a huge opportunity to transform Jersey for the better. In fact, I see our environmental ambitions as like a green wave that can sweep through and invigorate every aspect of the Island's economy, from tourism to farming to finance. Let us briefly consider the context. There are massive shifts under way in the global economy. For example, decarbonisation is going to be one of the great defining projects of the next 30 years. All around the

world business has bought into the net zero ambition. It is going to happen; frankly, it is just a question of whether it is going to happen in time. But it is not just decarbonisation. We have to face the related issues of habitat loss, mass extinction and overexploitation of the natural world. All of these issues are global in nature but they also find their own particular expression here in Jersey, so we must play our part in pursuing an environmental agenda not just because it is morally the right thing to do, although it is, but also because it is the right thing for our economy, our society, our people, the right thing for our Island. So, that green wave I mentioned just now? I think we should surf that wave and use its energy to drive improvements in every aspect of Island life. Of course, part of the environmental agenda is about the simple things: protecting rare species and vulnerable habitats, improving access to the countryside, providing parks and green spaces in St. Helier , and preventing ugliness in planning developments, as a recent U.K. Government declaration put it. But it goes much deeper than that. Supporting the environment is also part of broader moves towards increased sustainability and resilience. The world is changing fast. This is an era of much greater insecurity. We need an Island economy that is more resilient to outside shocks and agile enough to seize the eco-moment. That means a reinvigorated farming sector that thrives but does so with a significantly reduced need for chemical inputs. It means a hospitality industry that takes advantage of the massively growing market for ecotourism and it means a finance industry that takes a lead, a global lead, in financing the energy transition, habitat restoration and rewilding. There are, however, 2 dangers with surfing this green wave. We do not want to move so fast that we are out on a limb, ahead of mainstream technology or sacrificing living standards, but neither do we want to fall behind and miss the green wave. If we do, we will lose the incredible economic opportunities that lie in front of us and we will fail in our mission to improve people's lives. Summing all of this up without resort to a somewhat tortuous surfing metaphor, let me put it like this. In my election campaign I talked about being a sensible environmentalist. I stand by that. We need to be ambitious but not recklessly ambitious. Let me talk specifically about climate change and our drive to carbon neutrality. For me, nothing exemplifies the opportunity of going green more than our carbon neutral ambitions because almost everything we do to reduce our carbon emissions is also good for us. Take transport, for example, the single biggest contributor to our emissions. Encouraging active travel - walking and cycling - improves health outcomes, including mental health, which improves quality of life, reducing long-term health expenditure. Supporting public transport and multi-vehicle occupancy reduces congestion, which is a significant business cost, and also reduces pollution, further improving health outcomes. Shifting to electric or hydrogen-powered vehicles also means less pollution and healthier outcomes. I am concentrating on these points because if there is one thing I have missed over the last few years it is a sense of excitement about the opportunities in front of us. I want to reignite that sense of hope and possibility around our carbon neutral strategy so that people feel proud of our drive to carbon neutrality. Let me make one more brief point about the journey to carbon neutral. It is going to cost money. Now, at this stage, I remain agnostic on how we fund the transition, and maybe we can talk about some of those things in questions. But let us put this in context. The total cost is estimated at about £300 million. Spread that over 10 years and it is around £30 million a year or 3 per cent of Government expenditure. It is a lot of money but I believe it is doable, especially when you consider the long-term economic benefits. Let me turn to planning issues. Members will be aware that we have a bridging Island Plan in place that lasts for 3 years with a new Island Plan due by 2025. In my view, the bridging Island Plan was a far more substantial piece of work than the title "bridging" would suggest. It is also the case that the bridging Island Plan requires the development of further detailed policy work in areas such as the future of the reclamation site, a water strategy, coastal defences and a marine spatial plan, to name but a few. One major reason to bring forward a new Island Plan would be to release new sites for development. That may still be necessary. However, anecdotally it seems we have lost people over the last couple of years. Therefore, before we rezone more fields I believe we need a new assessment of housing need, taking account of measures that could reduce the demand for new sites, such as bringing more empty homes on to the market, the potential for office conversions and brownfield development. Taking

all of this into account, my inclination at this stage would be to suggest extending the bridging Island Plan by another couple of years. I question whether there is much value in or appetite for the development of another full Island Plan in this Assembly's term of office, given that it would need to kick off right away in order to meet a 2025 delivery date. In conclusion, I would point out what must be obvious from what I have said so far. Delivering a planning and environmental programme depends on teamwork. Therefore, I aim to work closely with Ministers in Economic Development, Infrastructure, Housing and elsewhere in Government to balance the competing demands on our environment and deliver our objectives. This must be a shared project. We are a small, crowded Island. It is not surprising to me that almost every square metre is contested. We cannot satisfy everyone. What we can do is be open in consultation, transparent about the decision-making process and honest about why certain choices are being made. These are responsibilities I embrace with conviction. Working together and in tune with nature, we will get Jersey back on track. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to questions for 20 minutes, and the first question is from Deputy Southern .

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Once again, I am hearing from Ministers about intentions but not about actions. He says in the fifth paragraph here: "During my campaign", the potential Minister says: "I made it clear that I was standing on a platform of what I called sensible environmentalism."

[11:30]

So the first question is: what might be seen as sensible to some may seem as madness to others. Where is his definition? He then goes on to say: "There is overwhelming support in Jersey for a strong environmental agenda, including on climate change." There is a strong environmental agenda versus a sensible agenda. Then he finally finishes up, and this is the pièce de résistance: "In other words, we need to be ambitious and to talk with conviction about the environment." So the end result is we will talk tough about the environment. That is what it says. That is what the entire paragraph says, effectively. When the potential Minister talks about being strong and talking tough, what does he actually mean, is the question.

Deputy J. Renouf :

I find it not that hard to consider the possibility of being both strong and sensible in the same paragraph. I think in terms of what it means in practice and how to pursue an environmental agenda in practice, I would say this. We have not yet had briefing papers from the civil service. We do not yet know the full issues that will face us. The very definition of sensible is that I will approach issues as they come before me, but I will do so in the sure knowledge and the conviction that I hope I have expressed here today that I support strong environmental measures and I will fight for the environment, but I will do so in a way that has respect for all sides of our community so that we try and bring everyone with us. I cannot be more specific than that.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

In short, I am waiting to be told by my civil servants as to what I should do on any particular matter. Is that not the case?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I find that slightly offensive. Never in my career have I been seen as somebody who has been pushed around. I have led strong teams. I have been a strong individual in whatever roles I have done. The Deputy might even remember me as a strong individual at school in his classrooms, but I will be strong and I will stand up for what I believe in. It is what I have done throughout my life.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

I do not know if the surfing analogy is the right one but I do wish the Minister good luck. I think that maybe a driving analogy is best because I know when you go to a different country it can sometimes take a while before you get used to driving on the other side of the road. The worst thing, of course, you can do is to drive in the middle of the road and then you are definitely going to get hit and there will be some kind of accident. With that in mind, he talked about the desire to build on brownfield sites. He has also talked about a socially just way forward. Does he accept the current Island Plan, and it has been a longstanding policy, that glasshouse sites should not be developed for rich people to have a windfall, which certainly would not be socially just, and that we must find another way, if only for food security, to try and make sure that we protect glasshouse sites, put them back into production so that we can help with the cost of living and food security issues in Jersey?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I am pleased to see that I am encouraging a development of metaphor as a method of communication in this Assembly. In terms of the specific question to do with glasshouse sites, the Deputy will have noted that in my speech I talked about the need for a new assessment of housing need. I think it is fundamentally important that before we take any more action to lose agricultural sites that we know how much demand we have for new houses. We are anecdotally told that we have lost population over the last few years. I do not know if that is the case. The previous Island Plan, the bridging Island Plan, was based on the planning assumption of a population growth of 800 per year. If that is not the case, then that means that there is less requirement for rezoning of new fields, including glasshouse sites. We simply need to know the facts before we take any further decisions.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

The reason I asked that question, and I think it is fundamental to the type of Minister for the Environment and Minister for Planning that he will be, is that his Chief Minister in the last Assembly, in the last few months, stood on a platform of build, build, build, let us build on as many greenfields as possible, let us build on as many brown sites as possible. She wants to build on glasshouse sites so that rich people or people who own derelict land who have let it fall fallow for years and years can get a large windfall, yet in his election campaign - but he is supporting this Chief Minister - he said that he did not want to build, build, build. Certainly, that is what he told the electorate in St. Brelade . Is there a cognitive dissonance in there? How will he resolve the tension at the very first moment between the Chief Minister's desire and his own words in the election campaign?

Deputy J. Renouf :

No, I do not think there is much of a cognitive dissonance. I have made clear that in my view before we take any further steps we should take a cool look at what the actual housing demand is. I think, with respect, that the Deputy may be importuning motives and views to the Chief Minister designate that may go beyond what she has actually said. I have made my position clear: we will need to look at what the actual demand is. There may be cases where glasshouse sites should be rezoned. There may be cases where glasshouse sites themselves can be restored where other less valuable agricultural land owned by the same landowner could be rezoned. There are multiple options available and I think we should look at all of them and consider very carefully the data before we make any further decisions.

5. Connétable K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

While I appreciate the candidate's green credentials, from a factual point of view we all know that fuel is absolutely going through the roof. It goes without saying if road fuel goes up, food and all essentials will go up, too. Does the Minister support the lowering of road fuels by a reduction in tax or some other method?

Deputy J. Renouf :

It is a very good question. Let me say that I am reluctant to lower fuel tax for the following reason. Fuel is going up primarily because of the problems with supplying fossil fuels. That is feeding through into a price signal. If we remove the financial signal that tells us that relying on fossil fuels is not in our best long-term interest, if we always remove that signal, then we are reducing the signal we need to send to people to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. Having said that, I do believe that in a situation of extreme stress, which we now find ourselves, it might be appropriate for a time- limited period to consider a reduction in fuel duty - time limited - so long as the funds that come from fuel duty to the carbon neutral fund are protected. In other words, that any reduction is taken by the general revenue rather than by the carbon neutral fund.

6. The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I thank the Minister for that concise reply. Following on from that, and possibly a question from the previous Minister, much has been said about the cost of food, which again is quite high. If supported by ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does that relate to your first question?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Sorry, Sir?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Your supplementary must relate to your first question. The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Indeed, Sir. With the cost of fuels, et cetera, would the candidate support the local .. sorry, you threw me completely there. We do have lots of excellent companies providing local supermarkets, but would the candidate support the importation of companies such as Lidl or Aldi to keep the cost of food down?

The Deputy Bailiff :

It does not relate to the initial question so I do not allow it.

7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The candidate spoke about being strong so let us put that to the test. Will this candidate as Minister be strong where previous Ministers were weak when it comes to the enforcement of minimum health and safety standards in private rental accommodation? As the Environmental Health Department will fall within his remit, will he as a matter of urgency bring back the regulations, which have already been written and are ready to go, to introduce a proper landlord licensing scheme?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I will want to consider this question in detail. My inclination at this stage is that I do support minimum standards in housing and I do support some form of registration scheme, but I will want to consider further before making a final commitment.

8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Not a good start. Does the candidate accept that a registration scheme is nothing more than a measly compromise which leads to nothing more than data collection rather than the actual and real enforcement of those minimum health and safety standards which were shown in a recent ITV News report for the failure they are, for the fact that they do not provide security for tenants and people are living in squalid-quality accommodation? Will he do a little bit better than he has done in saying he will think about it and instead take a strong approach now and commit to real action and not this measly compromise that has been suggested on registration, which is a pure distraction?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I will commit to making a very, very strong .. I will make a very strong commitment to ensuring that standards in housing are raised under this Minister. As I have said already, I will want to investigate what the best method of doing that is. However, I would like to say very clearly I share the Deputy 's very strong disquiet at the appalling state of some housing in this Island and I do not think strong enough action has been taken up until now. I do think strong action needs to be taken, but with the greatest of respect I will want to get to know the brief properly before I make a final commitment. I am sorry if that feels inadequate. I will be led by data and I will be very happy also to meet with the Deputy to discuss the matter further.

9. Deputy R.J. Ward :

It feels very strange not having my jacket on, slightly naked. [Laughter] Anyway, may I ask the Minister, does he agree with the adoption of the Paris Agreement for Jersey with its 2050 target as the date for carbon neutrality?

Deputy J. Renouf :

Yes, I do. I would also, though, before I sit down again, like to pay tribute to Deputy Ward for his work in pushing this agenda. When I returned to this Island, I was very proud to come back to an Island that had had a climate emergency adopted and was taking this forward. I would like to place on record my appreciation for the work that the Deputy has done in pushing that agenda.

10. Deputy R.J. Ward :

Does the Minister see any risks with the adoption of the agreement on carbon neutrality that may produce for us as a jurisdiction, namely being lost in larger targets which mean that our targets will really be almost, well, nothing?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I am not sure I understand the question. I am happy to take a clarification. Deputy R.J. Ward :

The Paris Agreement we have signed up to is a Paris Agreement for the U.K. and we, therefore, become part of the U.K. for that agreement for 2050. That is a much larger jurisdiction. Is there not a risk that our leading of carbon neutrality can be lost in that larger jurisdiction?

Deputy J. Renouf :

Well, I had not thought of that possibility, to be perfectly honest, but I would certainly not support any watering down in terms of keeping .. Jersey should be a separate jurisdiction for the purposes of our carbon neutral ambitions.

11. Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I warmly welcome the Deputy 's comments, given his strong environmental credentials, that he is going to be a sensible environmentalist. I have been trying to be a sensible economist for the past 8 years, so I wish him all the very best. The question I have is given the Island's urgent need for new housing, how is he going to balance that need with his strong environmental credentials?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I think I have already made some allusions to this in that I think we have to work out exactly what our housing need is. Our bridging Island Plan is based on the assumption that we would have a net inward migration .. sorry, a net population gain of 800 per year. We are being told, anecdotally at least, that, if anything, we are currently losing people rather than gaining people. That figure of 800 people per year in population growth was then translated into a need for 800 houses a year, and that is, in fact, what the bridging Island Plan aims to deliver.

[11:45]

It seems to me unlikely, given where we are, that we are currently needing more houses than was suggested in the bridging Island Plan. Therefore, let us find out exactly what the situation is in terms of housing need and then decide whether we need to come into conflict over the delivery of new sites for housing.

12. Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat :

My question is fairly straightforward. Would the Deputy have voted to build in the countryside as a number of Members did so during the bridging Island Plan?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I am on record as wanting to protect fields from development wherever possible. I think the last Assembly was faced with a very tricky balancing act between the need at that time - evidenced need

- for new sites for housing and the desire to save greenfields. I think something had to give during that. I cannot say exactly which fields I would have voted for and which ones I would not have voted for, but I think something had to give in that Assembly.

13. The Connétable of Trinity :

Unfortunately, I do not have the physique to be a good surfer, but I do share the Minister's enthusiasm for this green wave and in planning terms his aim to get rid of ugliness. Being Parish centric, could I ask that there is an opportunity to remove an eyesore in one of my bays in my Parish, which is a redundant hotel reminiscent of something more like in Beirut? It will deliver only one dwelling but it will provide an enormous restoration of landscape character. Could he give me an indication of what his views are on that style of development?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I am going to avoid commenting on that particular development, with the Connétable 's permission, in that at some point I may be required to make some judgments in my role. In general, I am in favour of 2 things here. Sometimes they may come into conflict. I am in favour of developments on the coastline that preserve access to the countryside and I am alarmed at the trend for very large houses in general to take dominant positions in the coastal national park in particular. However, I do think that in all of these cases they have to be considered not just in terms of that overall principle but also in terms of what they are replacing and, therefore, require individual judgment. All I can do is give you my general sense of the principles which I follow and then the need to follow that through in individual circumstances.

14. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Can I start by congratulating the candidate for his election, his nomination and, indeed, his speech? I am pleased to endorse what he said about active travel and the need for homes to be built on brownfield sites. Does his sensible approach to the environment include making allowance for the fact that many people, particularly in urban areas, are going to need vehicles? They may be low or zero emission vehicles, but they are going to continue to need them and they are going to need somewhere to park them? Would he undertake to have a close look at the current parking standards, which seem to me to discriminate against residents and businesses in St. Helier and urban areas while making it really carte blanche for parking elsewhere in the Island?

Deputy J. Renouf :

I could just answer yes, but just to put a little bit more flesh on it, I do think that the current car parking guidelines for developments in town feel instinctively to me to be a little low. I will qualify that in the sense that we do know we need to drive towards using .. we need to drive? We need to make fewer car journeys, particularly ones driven by petrol and diesel, but I feel like there is an opportunity here to make the planning guidance more sensitive to the very particular type of developments under way. I am particularly talking about new developments here. Developments with larger units will need more parking, crudely. Developments with one and 2-bedroomed flats maybe need less. I think we should possibly be more sensitive in our judgments of these issues.

The Deputy Bailiff :

That concludes the period for asking questions. I should explain to those Members who indicated their wish to speak as soon as Deputy Renouf sat down, and are probably feeling frustrated because no new Members got a chance to put their questions, that the old timers, if I can use that expression in relation to Members who were here in the last Assembly, often indicate their wish to speak during the course of the speech. So that is why you were not reached, simply because other Members indicated their wish to ask questions during the speech.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

May I just respectfully note that the first 2 questions in the last session, as good as they were, took nearly 5 minutes to ask, so Members really do need to be brief so many other Members can have a chance.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Yes, I endorse that observation. As there were no other nominations, Deputy Renouf has been selected for appointment as Minister for the Environment. [Approbation]

6. The Minister for External Relations and Financial Services The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move on to the Assembly appointing a new Minister for External Relations and Financial Services. Deputy Moore , would you like to make a nomination?

Deputy K.L Moore :

I nominate Deputy Ozouf .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

6.1   Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf of St. Saviour :

I want to start by thanking the voters of St. Saviour who placed their trust in me, which has led, following Deputy Moore 's election as Chief Minister designate, to me now being nominated for the role of Minister for External Relations and, at least in the short term, Financial Services. Having been a Member of this Assembly from 1999 to 2018, Members will perhaps know that I have some experience which started over 23 years ago as a St. Helier Deputy . Within 18 months of that, I, however, accompanied the Home Affairs President to sign an agreement with the Republic of Poland, which saw in advance of the rest of the European community Polish workers coming to Jersey. This early experience perhaps identifies that I have some experience and an established reputation in dealing with external matters. As I look around at the diversity, quality and determination of what is a now newly-elected Assembly, I detect a determination to succeed with a welcome fresh approach, an approach in discharging the role as a Minister that will be one working in collaboration with both this Assembly and the Council of Ministers. I hope that we can together turn the tide of confidence

in our Island. I say "confidence" because it is inevitably the case that internal confidence which arises by the decisions of this Assembly and the Council of Ministers in tackling major issues and whether or not Jersey is fiscally prudent does have an impact on the external view of Jersey. The tone from our Chief Minister designate is one that these issues should be tackled in an open, accountable and collaborative approach, and I would be proud to be part of that team. Like many other Members, I was perhaps not alone in having some frustration with the activities of the last few years. Having said that, I must say that all was not wrong. It is difficult to discharge public office and one area that I feel was well handled was the work of the External Affairs Department and, in particular, the work of the now former Senator Gorst , Deputy Gorst , in his oversight of External Relations. I wish to publicly recognise him and thank him for laying strong foundations for Jersey in the area of external relations. In particular, the last 4 years have been a significant time of challenge, navigating Brexit, the global pandemic, challenging fisheries issues, C.O.P. (Conference of the Parties) 26, and, of course, in the last few months the invasion by the President of the Russian Federation into Ukraine. There has been a backdrop also of somewhat, as we have seen in the last few days, turmoil in the politics of the United Kingdom. Deputy Gorst and indeed Deputy Labey , with the support of the External Affairs team, have handled this period of turbulence with sound information, research, quiet diplomacy and good and determined time and effort that has been well spent. I would be honoured to have the opportunity of continuing the work of Deputy Gorst . In accepting the nomination of the Chief Minister designate, while nobody has any evidence of the future - there are, it is said, known knowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns - no Member that took their oath of office 2 weeks ago will be under any illusion that the next 4 years are likely to be a time of immense challenge and change, both domestically and internationally. Brexit and the issues facing us are not yet finished. The incoming new U.K. Prime Minister is going to face a significant and unresolved set of issues in relation to the Northern Ireland border issue and the Northern Irish Protocol. This is further challenged by significant political change within the Conservative Party in the U.K. and, of course, we have also seen changes in the Administration of our other nearest neighbour, France, in the last 2 months. The ongoing issues, as the now, or shortly I hope, Minister for the Environment has said, the issues of climate change, have had to be issues that have been needing to be dealt with. At the same time, the extraordinary and unprecedented increase in commodity prices, which have continued and are likely to continue as markets indicate as a result of the ongoing situation in Ukraine. This also is important to point out that such international events do sometimes shine a spotlight on Jersey in a disproportionate way, in particular in relation to the United Kingdom and international communities' efforts in relation to sanctions in order to try and deal with what is a very difficult situation. This identification of issues does show that issues come that are unknowns to the External Relations Department. The Chief Minister designate has, however, made one thing clear, that she wishes to transfer financial services to the Treasury, so I am being nominated for one role but with a clear expectation that half of the role, if that is half of the role, will move. So I believe that it is a sensible move. I fully support it and I commit to working with both the Chief Minister and the Minister for Treasury and Resources to effect the changes necessary to transfer responsibility for financial services. The resultant External Relations Department will perhaps underline the important difference of the Minister for External Relations to perhaps other Ministerial portfolios, and that is that its work is very much a role of being a collaborative player on the Council of Ministers, working with Ministers as it relates to their non- domestic relationships. The Minister for External Relations has to, with the Chief Minister, publish a statement of common policy on external relations, and that policy has been published. I understand it has remained relatively unchanged since the policy that was written and led by former Senator Bailhache , now Deputy Bailhache , in his work with External Relations, which very much were at the cutting edge of creating an External Relations Department. The document that is set out sets out the broad principles of our international relations. It sets out the importance to protect our constitution, promoting Jersey's international identity, and also having regard to the best economic interests of Jersey, something which my hopefully future colleague the Minister for External Relations ably dealt

with. There is also a need to promote Jersey's national and cultural identity abroad. The report lists how those objectives should be followed through, moreover, in a set of priorities. The new council will no doubt want to revisit these priorities and I look forward to working with the council on considering what those priorities should be. Of course, as the common policy is ultimately a matter for the States Assembly, it will be important to listen to the views of the as yet unelected and unselected Scrutiny Panel, but of course Members more widely. While I have outlined that there are challenges in international relations, I believe also firmly that there are huge opportunities, opportunities to strengthen our bond particularly with the Jersey community that lives outside of the Island. While I have been somewhat hesitant sometimes to use the words "world class" - we are not a country, we do not have the largesse of other countries with a foreign service - there are undoubted opportunities to lead by way of example by linking our diaspora together with the current issues that Jersey has. I want to make it a mission of External Relations to build and enhance our relationship with the literally thousands of members of the Jersey diaspora across the world.

[12:00]

This work was started in the London office a number of years ago and, if elected, I would wish to undertake a more detailed analysis of where this diaspora live, what their skills are and what we can do to enhance them. I also look forward to working with the Minister for Economic Development and Ministerial colleagues such as the Minister for Education in considering what we can do to advance cultural identity and cultural betterment for Jersey outside of the Assembly. I am very pleased that subject to this Assembly's support the role of Minister for International Development will be continued by Deputy Labey in her important role in international development work. This is an important area, a crucial area, and I commend to the Assembly and to her the excellent work of the Island Identity report, which has not yet, as I understand it, been formally adopted by the Council of Ministers. I look forward to working with Deputy Labey , if elected, on that joint endeavour. Clearly, working with Guernsey is important and, as always, we need to build strong relationships with the United Kingdom, which is our key partner. I was a Member of this Assembly who attended upon numerous party conferences in the U.K. and I think Deputy Mézec in his remarks in securing the position of Chief Minister was alluding to the work that we both did at the Labour Party conference. That highlights the importance of Jersey remaining politically neutral in terms of whatever Government the United Kingdom has. Having studied European business and economics in London, Frankfurt and Paris, I hope that I do have an understanding of international relations, moreover the importance of what Jersey has and Jersey being a collaborative jurisdiction, and I look forward to answering Members' questions. The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . We now begin up to 20 minutes of questions.

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Will the candidate pledge to break with the approach that was adopted by his predecessors and refrain from involving himself in actions which constitute positive P.R. (public relations) for the representatives of some of the worst dictatorships on the planet?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I recognise I have not been a Member of this Assembly for the last 4 years and so the Deputy will forgive me if I am not familiar with the particular issues that he deals with. I would say that it is important to recognise that Jersey is a Crown Dependency and, as such, the responsibilities for international affairs fall within the United Kingdom. That does not, however, mean that we do not make our voice heard but in the appropriate way in order to enhance that. Diplomacy is often talking about the people you do not agree with.

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Of course, I entirely agree with all of that. We cannot choose other countries' governance for them and you have to engage whether you like it or not, but to appear in photographs smiling and shaking hands, with hands that are, frankly, covered in blood, and to put out press releases extolling the virtues of some of these people is surely a step too far and we can engage in that diplomacy in ways that do not involve glorifying people who do not deserve to be glorified, they deserve to be demonised?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I recall that it was when I was a Backbencher in 2017 that I asked the then Minister for External Relations of his knowledge and the equippedness of Jersey to adopt the Magnitsky sanctions, which were a new form of sanctions brought forward in order to identify perpetrators of criminal and socially disruptive activity, to use a polite word. So I think the international community is well aware of the ways that you can sanction individuals and sanction different Governments, but that has to be done on evidence. Jersey simply, if I may politely say, does not have the resources to identify the extent to which some other people .. Jersey will respect international sanctions but we are not a foreign country in that sense and we need to be closely aligned with the United Kingdom's foreign policy, which we continue to do but that does not mean we do not talk.

3. Deputy H. Jeune :

Jersey has a significant impact beyond its borders, mainly through the finance industry. Global responsibilities must be taken seriously and as a whole Island strategy. What key multilateral processes will the Deputy prioritise to ensure Jersey develops into a true sustainable finance jurisdiction where there is zero tolerance for green washing?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

In my opening remarks I made it very clear that the Minister for External Relations is the colleague

- I do not want to use the word "servant" - of other Ministers, but certainly that is the role which the Ministers for External Relations play. The Deputy raises an important issue about the Island's reputation in relation to financial services. I note the comments that she makes and I look forward to working with the Minister for Treasury and Resources with his work on financial services in order to ensure that the reputation of Jersey is enhanced, because there are many opportunities for our finance industry to do quite the opposite of greenwashing and to make advances in terms of innovative technology.

4. Deputy H. Jeune :

Just to confirm, you will be advised to go to the key multilateral processes, you will not have that decision-making process yourself?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

Unless I have misunderstood the role, the Minister for External Relations is working against a criteria of common strategic policy for External Relations and simply does not just go off by themselves. In saying that, I do not in any way wish to set aside the issues that the Deputy raises. There are important issues about the way that Jersey projects itself, and indeed in the past there have been many positive contributions, namely with the work that has been done in relation to the positive economic contribution of Jersey to the United Kingdom and the European Union. But I take the point that the Deputy makes and will bear that in mind in discussions about the importance of international relations and what we do.

5. Deputy R.J. Ward :

First of all, I congratulate the Minister on his return to Government and on his use of the word "diaspora". Thank you. Given the cross-range nature of his role, I ask this question as I would have of others but I did not get the chance: what will the Minister do to end the bullying culture that has been identified in the States as an organisation and what personal qualities do you bring to this within your Ministry and in your multi-faceted role?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think that I would start by saying that the tone from the Chief Minister designate is going to be a very important one. That is a Chief Minister who is going to lead from the front and have absolutely zero tolerance to any form of inappropriate behaviour, which I say that I have experienced in .. perhaps in not identifying, Members will be aware of being somebody that is from a minority community or whatever it is one is subjected to all sorts of inappropriate activity and behaviour. Indeed, I lament some of the comments that I have seen online over the weekend. Deputy Ward is not in any way linking that. He is basically asking me about my own conduct and all I would say is that I was very proud for every department that I led throughout the nearly 20 years that I was in the Assembly of the support that I received from staff at the chief officer level and below. I was always encouraged by the farewell that I was given, which was a generous and warm one, and one in which a Minister conducted his affairs in a collaborative and joined-up way, recognising the important work of junior staff, which has sometimes not always happened.

6. Deputy R.J. Ward :

May I ask the Minister what will he do distinctly to give members of the workforce a voice and a space to express their concerns and how will he address those very real concerns, particularly for those on the front row, if you like, of our services, who sometimes get the worst treatment from managers who are under stress?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

As important as that question undoubtedly is and I think wanting to be asked by many Members, the Minister for External Relations is not responsible. They are not the Chief Minister and that matter is perhaps best addressed by the Chief Minister, except to say that as a Minister working with departments you can only do so with the support and work of your invaluable staff and related agencies, and that I have always had a proud reputation for, I think, of working with colleagues and not having any truck with any sense of bullying with junior staff or, indeed, staff below the role of chief officer.

7. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Before Brexit, this Island enjoyed a close relationship with France. What steps is the Minister designate going to do to build bridges with our French neighbours? I do not mean, of course, the literal bridge that has been suggested but metaphorically to restore the happy interchange of tourists, of students and particularly for local people who have been accustomed in the past enjoy time in France and I find that circumscribed by Brexit.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

There is no doubt at all that Brexit, which of course our Island community had no say in, has caused all sorts of issues in relation to travelling with France and indeed French trade, in particular, in relation to fisheries. I cannot tell the Constable what the prescription is going to be for the problem. We first need to diagnose it. But it is, I would say, by dialogue, by going and speaking with representatives across the political spectrum of France, both at the regional level and at the national level and indeed with the ambassadorial service that there is in London. It is by understanding, by respect and by discussion that I hope that we can deal with some of the difficult issues. There will be some issues that we will need to talk to the U.K. about particularly, as I understand it, in relation to immigration and day-trippers from France. But I have not got solutions but I will find them.

8. The Connétable of St. Helier :

I am sure the Minister designate's ability to speak French, which he does not need to show off in this Assembly, will be very useful. Would he also spare a thought for local boat owners who in the past had been able just to drop down to Chausey for lunch if their boats go fast enough? I have to declare mine would take 2 days to get down there. But will he do something for boat owners as well who have really lost that freedom to pop across to France whenever they chose?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I must admit I once entered the office of the former Greffier of the States and I saw a picture, a map of the kingdom of Rollo, which included the Crown Dependencies, as they now are, Jersey with ownership of Chausey. I am not suggesting at all that we attempt to revisit history, we cannot change the past but we can change the present. If it is the will of the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture, who has responsibility for these issues, if this is a prioritised issue that needs to be dealt with then he can rest assured that that will be dealt with by the External Relations Department appropriately and robustly. I thank the Constable for his comments about my French. I would remind him and the Assembly that we were successful in getting Jersey off the French blacklist in financial services, which would have lost in excess of around 2,000 jobs I think. Our ability for diplomacy is there.

9. Deputy L. Farnham :

In his opening speech, the Deputy spoke of the importance of rest of the world engagement that the Minister for External Relations has to lead. But closer to home, what does he see as the most important part of his role that will work to improve the lives of Islanders and protect our livelihood and the economy? I am asking not sort of on everything but can he identify anything that will specifically ensure that we can improve the lives of Islanders through his role?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

Any Minister that stands, or potential Minister, in this Assembly and pretends that they have a magic wand or a silver bullet .. and I do not think the Deputy is asking me to do that. I would say that I think it is important for Jersey's international identity for, as I said in my remarks, confidence to be restored domestically. The fact that there has been some disquiet, which is normal and healthy in a democracy, in the last difficult 2 or 3 years I think does give the impression, particularly perhaps the fiscal position of Jersey, of some questions being raised in Jersey. I have been accustomed over many years to dealing with many outside commentators that said that the finance industry would end, we were going to be courting one or other international agreement. The experience that I have is that we can deal with the international pressures. I am not going to use the "word well-regulated" and all the rest of it but we can represent ourselves, whether it is fisheries or finance or digital. But it is really important for the outward impression to be given .. not impression, the reality of a confident Island at ease with itself and confident in the future and thinking the best days have yet to come and they are not relegated to the pages of temps passé.

10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

External Relations is an important role, particularly at this time of global uncertainty. The Deputy in his opening remarks spoke about his first being elected in 1999 and serving until 2018.

[12:15]

I am sure he will agree with me that during his political career it could be described as having been colourful. My question to the Deputy is serious and it is this: during his various Ministerial roles what has he learned about what to not do as a Minister?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am grateful for the Constable's thoughtful and incisive question. When one has discharged political responsibility at the highest level in turbulent times one may get a picture in people's minds of one's character and that is often identified in a caricature. The caricature of the then Senator Ozouf or Minister for Treasury and Resources or Minister for Economic Development dealing with low-value consignment relief was perhaps a difficult one and one which 4 years absence from the Assembly has caused me to reflect upon greatly. I return to this Assembly with undoubtedly not talcum powder but a few more grey hairs and, therefore, age moves on. The way that you conduct yourself changes in relation to the experience you have had. Looking outside from within I can see why some of that character might have been appropriated to me. However, at the same time, I would not undo some of the work that was necessary in difficult times but there is a way of doing it. The way that the Minister for External Relations has to conduct himself or herself is one of collaboration, of simply sticking to the brief and concentrating on the areas that other Ministers are asking you to do. That is a very different role than perhaps the roles that I have fulfilled and like many of the people that I met on the doorstep in St. Saviour , a number of them said: "Goodness me, you really are human, you are a real person" and the caricature was unrecognisable for the person they saw on the doorstep, and I am grateful for the support of the people of St. Saviour in making that positive choice. The caricature is not perhaps something I recognise but I take the point that the Constable makes.

11. Deputy L. Feltham :

I would like to ask the Deputy , given the size of our Island and the scope of our trading capacity, is there any value is pursuing our own trade agreements with other jurisdictions and, if so, which trade agreements will he be pursuing first?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

It would be very easy after the last question to respond to the Deputy 's excellent question, is that the fact that I know what the trade agreements are. The short answer is I am not entirely sure because my work previously in this Assembly has been very much directed towards financial services, to the extent that fisheries matter, that clearly matters in relation to bilateral relations with France. But it is certainly going to be, I suspect, in the area of digital and the furtherance of our financial services industry as we move towards a more digitally-enabled services sector, which is going to be punching above its weight; I do not like that word. But certainly we need to identify the barriers to entry for our digital and technology areas and certainly those would be the subject of discussion where we need trade agreements to do so. Our constitutional position is what it is. We are not members of the European Union but I do accept that there is an opportunity for bilateral trade treaties where our economic interests lie and that will of course be very much governed by the work of the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture and the Minister for Treasury and Resources.

12. Deputy L. Feltham :

Obviously as a small jurisdiction the size of our team, as well as their experience, may well differ from larger jurisdictions. What measures would the Deputy take to ensure that our team is able to compete on an equal footing with those of other larger jurisdictions?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

The "bettertogether" hashtag has been used in the context of this new Assembly's approach and I would say that the better together of working in partnership with the United Kingdom, being British Jersey, does have an enormous strength to it. It is the good relations that we have with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the network of embassies around the world that mean that Jersey, a jurisdiction which is micro compared to that of other nations, can be multiplied many times by the use of the huge network of high commissions and embassies around the world with the attendant other British opportunities. That is where I would say to the Deputy that we can have a multiplier effect by reminding ourselves that we are British Jersey and that is an important brand, whether or not it is potatoes or whether it is financial services.

13. Deputy M. Andrews :

Also, I just wanted to ask the question in relation to trade agreements and also the importance in terms of recognising what the exchange rates are and also the volatility of exchange rates within the international system.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think the Deputy is rightly alluding to the challenges of doing a trade with a jurisdiction which does not have the same exchange rate as us. There is a lot of talk, of which I am an enthusiastic, longstanding bystander and supporter of bilateral links with France, but that of course does come with an exchange-rate risk, which was the thing I had to deal with on my first day as Minister for Treasury and Resources when I found out the incinerator had not been hitched.

14. Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary :

As former Chair of the Scrutiny Panel overseeing Economic and International Affairs in the last Government, I endorse the comments made by the candidate as to the good work carried out by the then Minister for External Relations and Financial Services, which included very regular briefings and briefings I suspect before it goes to the Council of Ministers on matters prevalent. Would the candidate please confirm that he will deal with the Scrutiny Panel with the same alacrity as his predecessor?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf :

That gives me the opportunity of also recognising the important work of Scrutiny, which I did not specifically commend the now Constable for his work, because I have read many of those interactions and they were positive, important. I hope to have the same relationship with Scrutiny going forward. It was an excellent piece of work and an excellent ongoing 4 years of work in very difficult times.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . The period for questions has come to an end and, accordingly, I can confirm that Deputy Ozouf has been selected for appointment as Minister for External Relations and Financial Services. [Approbation]

7. The Minister for Home Affairs The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to the next Minister appointment. Deputy Moore , do you wish to take something out of turn, is that right?

Deputy K.L. Moore :

I would ask the Assembly now to consider the Minister for Home Affairs and I would like to nominate Deputy Miles , please.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for Minister for Home Affairs?

7.1   Deputy H. Miles of St. Brelade :

I would like to start by thanking the parishioners of St. Brelade for giving me the opportunity to be part of this Assembly. It will have not escaped Members' notice that I am new to this Assembly and can, therefore, be considered an inexperienced politician. I think I will enjoy that label and the benefits it brings while it lasts. That experience cannot, however, be said to include my background

in the Home Affairs services or working on justice in Home Affairs policy. I spent over 30 years working for Jersey's public service in those areas, including as a policy director for the Chief Minister designate. I have the practical experience, the strategic knowledge and the relevant training and qualifications. I am new to this Assembly but I am ready for the challenge to being Minister for Home Affairs. My career has included time working for what is now the integrated Customs and Immigration Service, for the Probation and After Care Service, the States of Jersey Police and the former Department for Community and Constitutional Affairs. I have worked in service delivery, service development, strategic leadership and planning roles. I have attended and passed the Senior Police National Assessment Centre Strategic Command course, which in a previous career would have enabled my appointment to a Chief Officer role. In my policy role, I led the development of the Criminal Procedure Law and the Sexual Offences Law, modernising the landscape of criminal justice in Jersey. I have a PhD in social sciences and a strong academic interest and appreciation of our criminal justice system, right through from the Parish Hall Inquiry system to the courts and particularly in promoting informal justice, rehabilitation and social work with offenders. Jersey is one of the safest places in the world but this is not a position that has been achieved through luck and not one that we should take for granted. If elected I will pursue community-based policies and those that are rooted in a comprehensive understanding of our Island and what works best for Jersey. I will provide political leadership to the department and maintain and enhance Jersey's reputation as a safe and fair community. As part of my preparations for today, I have met the director general for Justice and Home Affairs and many of the service heads. Together they run an excellent operation, they are good at what they do and they have my full support. It has been said many times in recent years, and I make no apology for saying it again, we owe so much to our police force, our customs and immigration officers, our fire and rescue teams, the ambulance service, the health and safety executive, the superintendent registrar and all of those who ably and conscientiously support their operations. [Approbation] I will always fight their corner and be their voice in Government and in this Assembly, on policy for legislation and for funding. I do have some immediate priorities for services if I am elected to the role. I will be seeking to ensure that as much resource as possible is aimed towards the front line across all services. At Customs, for example, I do not want highly- trained and effective customs officers sitting behind their desks dealing with G.S.T. queries, I want them at the ports and the post office working on front line operations. We need to secure more resource for the Fire and Rescue Service, they have been cut and cut and cut and this has reduced their capacity to improve and promote fire safety among businesses and within the community. As Minister, I will argue for increased funding so that we can properly resource our crews and maintain fire safety within the community. I consider this a risk to our Island, which needs addressing. The same applies to the ambulance service, I see no greater priority than the ability to be able to respond to front line emergency calls and I will work with my Ministerial colleagues to address the current funding shortfalls. While I will support collaboration and joint working across the services, there will be no mergers of services for any period that I serve as Minister. Police, customs, fire and ambulance have their distinct roles. They of course work together but I will not pursue pointless reorganisations aimed solely at cost-cutting, which do not improve service delivery and often seek to replicate failed U.K. models. This includes - and this may or may not be of interest - our relationship with the Jersey Probation and After Care Service. I want to work very closely with Probation. I want the prison to continue working closely with Probation to promote rehabilitation and reduce reoffending across our community. I will take my ex officio seat on the Probation board and I will actively engage and set out my policy agenda. But I will not seek to bring Probation into the Home Affairs Department. It works well as a department of the Royal Court and, again, I want that service to be able to get on and deliver for our community, as it has done year after year and not be worried about who wants to bring them into which Ministerial portfolio. I am also aware of some in the ongoing capital projects which we need to see through. The new police firearms range, which is long overdue, the army and sea cadets headquarters, which the previous Assembly committed to, and of course to the prison redevelopment. We also need to secure sites for the Sexual Assault Referral