States Meeting Transcript - 3rd March 2022

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT THURSDAY, 3rd MARCH 2022

PUBLIC BUSINESS ................................................................................. 2

1. Immigration of Ukrainian Nationals (P.37/2022) - as amended (P.37/2022 Amd.) ..... 2

1.1 Deputy J.H. Perchard: ...................................................................... 2

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ........................................................ 5
2. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................... 6
3. Senator K.L. Moore : ....................................................................... 6
4. Deputy L.B.E. Ash of St. Clement : ........................................................ 6
5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour : ........................................................ 7
6. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...................................................................... 7
7. Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin : .............................................. 7
8. Deputy G.C. Guida of S. Lawrence: ....................................................... 8
9. Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter : ........................................................... 8
10. Senator I.J. Gorst : ....................................................................... 8
11. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : .............................................. 9
12. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier : ................................................... 10
13. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade : ...................................................... 10
14. Senator J.A.N. Le Fondré: ............................................................. 11
15. Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour : .................................................. 11
16. Deputy J.H. Perchard: ................................................................. 11

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS .................... 14

2. Deputy C.S. Alves of St. Helier (Chair, Privileges and Procedures Committee): ........ 14

1. The Deputy of St. Peter : .................................................................. 15
2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade : ....................................................... 15
3. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier : ........................................................... 15

ADJOURNMENT .................................................................................. 16

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. PUBLIC BUSINESS

1. Immigration of Ukrainian Nationals (P.37/2022) - as amended (P.37/2022 Amd.) The Bailiff :

The final element of Public Business before the Assembly is P.37 lodged by Deputy Perchard, Immigration of Ukrainian Nationals. There is an amendment lodged by Deputy Maçon to that proposition. Deputy Perchard, are you prepared to take the proposition as amended or do you wish the amendment ..

Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour : Yes, Sir.

The Bailiff :

Do Members agree that we can take that as amended by Deputy Maçon's? I ask the Greffier to read the proposition as amended.

The Greffier of the States:

The States are asked to decide whether they are of opinion (a) to request the Minister for External Relations and Minister for Home Affairs to liaise with the relevant authorities in the U.K. (United Kingdom) to seek agreement that the current definition of "relative", in relation to the immigration of people displaced from Ukraine, which includes spouses, civil partners, children, siblings and dependent parents, should be expanded in Jersey to include extended family members; and (b) that the Government of Jersey should, over the next 6 months, be enabled to allow people displaced from Ukraine with relatives resident in Jersey immediate access to the Island on a temporary emergency basis, giving them the right to reside with family, friends, or others for a period of at least one year from their date of arrival; and to request the Minister for External Relations and Minister for Home Affairs to liaise with the necessary authorities in the U.K. to seek agreement to pursue this policy, where such agreement is necessary; (c) to request the Minister for External Relations and other relevant Ministers to work with the U.K. authorities and the authorities in other jurisdictions, as necessary, to make arrangements for the longer term settlement of any Ukrainian people that temporary visas are issued to; (d) to request the Minister for Home Affairs to make available appropriate language services and documentation for Ukrainian people arriving under the temporary visa scheme; and (e) to request the Council of Minister to present a report to the States outlining the cost implications in excess of departmental budgets arising from this proposition, if any, and to request approval for the lodging of a proposition to request additional funding, should this be necessary, including, if necessary, during the election period when Standing Order 19A applies.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I wonder, if just before the proposer proposes the proposal I could make it clear, because one or 2 Members were not aware that the Minister for Home Affairs and myself, and therefore the Government, do accept the proposal as amended. It is just that some Members were unclear.

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier

May I raise the défaut on Deputy Alves please? The Bailiff :

Yes, the défaut is raised on Deputy Alves .

1.1   Deputy J.H. Perchard:

I would like to start by saying that while propositions can only be lodged in one Member's name I want to make clear this has been jointly developed with Deputy Inna Gardiner , who has been and continues to be instrumental in the real-time support of many Jersey families who are desperately trying to save their relatives fleeing from their Ukrainian homeland following the Russian invasion. It is also important to commend the officers in External Relations, Home Affairs and particularly in Immigration who are working tirelessly to help relatives of Jersey residents find their way here. As Members will know, we are restricted to a great degree by U.K. immigration rules so at the moment officers are having to innovatively use the tools available to them to assist local Jersey people trying to bring their sisters, mothers, nieces, nephews and other relatives to the Island. Visitor visas, family visas, exceptional circumstances, tools, are being used and I commend this creative problem-solving approach. However, I do believe it is right that Members of the Assembly, representatives of the people, are given the opportunity to weigh in on what we want to try to achieve for our Islanders who are affected by the terror. Ministers need to be clear on what the people of Jersey would like to see happen. The Assembly needs to have the chance to convey this and to give the relevant Ministers the mandate to do what they can to enable our local preferences if and when they are different from the U.K.'s preferences for its own citizens. The first thing I need to say is that the wording of this proposition has been carefully considered to account for the fact that Jersey does not have the power to simply change its immigration rules overnight. Due to our relationship with the U.K. and the rules governing entrance to the Common Travel Area we do not have complete autonomy. This proposition gives Members the opportunity to do 3 things, in addition to Deputy Maçon's amendment, but I am just going to talk about part (a) and (b) to start with. To express their view on the definition of extended family in relation to those fleeing Ukraine who are trying to reach family in Jersey, to express their view on the emergency provisions I suggest in part (b) and to instruct the Ministers for Home Affairs and External Relations to make these known to the necessary U.K. officers and do everything within their power to enact the will of the Assembly to negotiate a Jersey solution for Jersey residents and their families. Turning to part (a). Jersey's arrangements are currently mirroring those of the U.K. This means in order to enter the Common Travel Area Ukrainian nationals need a visa. However, they do not need a visa to enter the Schengen area for less than 90 days. This area covers 26 countries and includes of course France. At present, relatives can obtain a visa. Relatives are defined as spouses, civil partners, children, dependent parents, as of yesterday siblings, and since lodging this I have been informed that this has also been extended to include the following. This is a quote from the document you can find on the Home Office website. "British nationals and people settled in the U.K. will be able to bring extended family members to the U.K. and sponsored humanitarian visa routes will be established. This will include parents, grandparents, adult children and siblings from the Ukraine, as well as their immediate family members. This is excellent news and deals with some of my original concerns around children who would have been nieces and nephews perhaps of a Jersey resident who, before this change, were excluded even though their parents were not. So this is a welcome change and I am assured by officers in Jersey that this is extended to Jersey, even though it says British nationals and people settled in the U.K. I have received written confirmation that this is extended to the Island. Prior to this change, there was a discrimination between a sibling of a Jersey resident and their child, so the niece or nephew of a Jersey resident. I really welcome the changes because we should not be making it any harder for children to access family and any adult fleeing Ukraine who is eligible to enter Jersey should absolutely and automatically be able to bring their children with them. That should be a right not an exception. That has now been rectified but I also personally feel the same way about extended relatives who are adults but who still do not meet the new criteria. It is women and children and elderly people who are making these journeys. The men are being told to stay and fight and therefore there are many lone female travellers trying to access the bureaucracy of a visa process across Europe. An elderly aunt - and this is a real Jersey example - should be allowed to be taken in by willing family members. Where else is she supposed to go? What more could we expect of her? She is terrified. And if it was my aunt who had brought me up as a child - this is still the real-life

Jersey example - I would be insistent that she be allowed to come to be with me and not expected to settle in the first country she reaches and not be expected to feel safe there, alone, no money, no food, no help, no family.

[9:45]

Expanding the definition of "relative" to include extended family for me was a must, and that has been done. But the definition of extended family is still not wide enough to capture the real-life local Jersey cases. This debate is our opportunity to discuss what we think extended family should mean for us in a Jersey context, and to convey that to our Ministers who do not have the power to change it themselves but who can appeal to the Home Office and work with them to try to negotiate a Jersey solution. Support for part (a) will mean that the Minister will need to liaise with the relevant authorities to seek the expansion of the definition of extended family, specifically for family members of Jersey residents. From a humanitarian perspective, my view is that anyone fleeing this war with relatives who are Jersey residents should be able to seek sanctuary in the arms and homes of those Jersey relatives. Furthermore, I would add that my use of Jersey residents is deliberate. It should not matter if those residents are British or Ukrainian or other nationals, if they have family members fleeing Ukraine we should be helping them to get here. Jersey residents are our people. I do not care what their passport says. Our community is made up of many people, of many nationalities, and if anyone who lives or works in Jersey has a sister, a mother, a brother, a niece, an aunt, who is displaced by this terror, we should be helping them to reach their families. Security is not just about physical safety. Trauma is shattering; emotionally, psychologically and physically shattering. Trauma stays with you. It takes a huge amount of time to process and deal with the effects of trauma. Traumatised people need to be with people they know, people they trust, people they love. They need to be with family. If their only living relative is their niece in Jersey then, as an aunt, they need to be allowed to come and stay with that niece. These people have packed a rucksack. They have left their homes, their friends, family, community, culture, spouses. The terror they are experiencing is beyond our comprehension. 7.5 million children, according to U.N.I.C.E.F. (United Nations Children's Fund) are likely to be displaced by this war. Their destination needs to be with family wherever possible. We need to facilitate that as much as we possibly can. So that is part (a). What do we want extended family to mean in a Jersey context? In summary, part (b) asks the Assembly to consider whether we should allow people displaced from Ukraine with family members who are Jersey residents so people who live and work here - Jersey residents - to come and have the right to stay with them for a year. If the Assembly approves this, the proposition asks Ministers to make this position clear and do whatever they can to uphold it. It is not a guarantee because it cannot be. Rightly or wrongly, we do not have the autonomy we need to make these decisions ourselves and maybe this is something we will want to discuss in the future but right now I am interested in using the tools we have to urgently help those in this emergency situation. That is part (b). Deputy Maçon will forgive me for not being able to summarise his amendment but I am sure he will speak to that in the debate for Members' benefit. The situation is changing at pace but right now there are people fleeing a warzone who have relatives here. The latter are telling us they are able and willing to financially support their fleeing family members and begging us to let them in. I think it would be proportionate and morally right to allow these relatives to come here to be safe and secure while we figure out the paperwork. Our long-term position will need to be clarified but now is not the moment to hesitate in the short-term provision of safety. We have the capacity to take a decision ourselves on what we want to be able to offer. This is especially relevant given that those fleeing Ukraine can reach the French border via the Schengen area. All of this is said with the understanding that due to our relationship with the U.K. in relation to our immigration policies the success of our ambitions will be largely dictated by the Ministers' abilities to liaise and negotiate outcomes with the U.K. Government. However, I do think it is right that we, as an Assembly, representing our local community, make our ambitions known and clearly demonstrate our commitment to the provision of safety to those fleeing war. This is an opportunity to tell our Ministers what we want them to fight for and an opportunity for them to

publicly explain where we are, what we are doing, how we are doing it, and where we are trying to get to from here. The night sky is lit red in Ukraine. Children have been killed and wounded. Women are saying goodbye to their husbands who have been told to stay and fight. Over 80 babies have reportedly been born in bomb shelters since this invasion began. It can be hard to look at what is happening and think about what we can do to help. While this debate might seem dry or technical or semantic this is something we can do to help. Not only do we need to demonstrate our support for the victims of war, we need to back that up with any action that is available to us, and for now that is about the meaning of words, the meaning of family, because those words lead to actions that affect who we are trying to help. In this case, that is Jersey people and their extended families. I maintain the proposition.

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Deputy . Is the proposition seconded? [Seconded] Senator I.J. Gorst :

Could I raise the défaut on Senator Farnham please?

The Bailiff :

Yes, the défaut is raised on Senator Farnham .

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

Can I firstly begin by thanking Deputy Perchard and the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services for expressing and accepting my amendments? As Members will know, this proposition came in very quickly yesterday and there was not much time to consider it in its entirety. My amendments, which I brought, which I will go through and explain, are to provide some practical thought and some longer-term thought regarding individuals that might turn up in Jersey. Of course, like all Members, we expressed our condemnation of the Russian military assault on Ukraine and its people. Of course we all feel that way in the Assembly. I too share the concerns which Deputy Perchard has expressed. It is usually the ordinary people that suffer the most during these types of things and not the instigators. Also, I would like to express my concern and congratulate the bravery of those Russian people who are standing up and expressing their dissent to the decision because no doubt there will be reprisals on those individuals as well. Turning to my amendment now, just to take Members through it, Deputy Perchard quite rightly made the case about the instant reaction that we need to have and of course made the strong emotional pleas for it. This part of the amendment, I hope, just cools things a little and makes us think about the longer-term implications of the situation and in that the community no doubt will ask us, once these individuals arrive, how do we support them into the future. Now, I absolutely accept the argument from Deputy Perchard, that we should be doing what we can to remove barriers to get people into Jersey as quickly as possible safely. But then we need to think about how we support them on an ongoing basis and that Jersey has, I believe, a long-term commitment to these people once they are with us and therefore part (c) of my amendment seeks to establish that, to acknowledge that and also to acknowledge there might be further work done in helping these people settle; that might be in Jersey, that might be elsewhere. Given the uncertainty of the situation we just do not know. But it is an acknowledgement that for these individuals Jersey has a longer-term commitment to support them, and that has been acknowledged by the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services; I am grateful for that. Part (d) seeks simply to allow for language services interpretation and indoctrination services for people arriving from the Ukraine in order to inform them of their rights, access to services, et cetera. I do not know how much we have in Jersey at the moment. I suspect not much. I think just as a belt and braces approach, this is a provision that should be put in place and is something very practical that we can do. Part (e) again, thinking in a belt and braces approach, this is obviously not something which we had thought of when approving the finance plan last year when it was debated. It is simply

to say to the Council of Ministers, if for whatever reason there is extra cost that the Assembly is accepting that, we need to be notified of it, that the Council of Ministers should bring a proposition to us, even during the election period, given the importance of this particular matter. I suspect that that is not going to be needed because we are so early in the year and Ministers can reprioritise budgets if they are required. But I think, given the uncertainty with the election just around the corner, as a belt and braces approach, that is just something we need to signal as well. That is why I brought these various parts of the amendment, which I see as complimentary to parts (a) and (b). Regarding parts (a) and (b), it will be interesting to see how many applications we have. We just do not know going forward who might wish to come to Jersey, but I think it is likely, as has been said, to be a small number of people and given that it is likely to be a small number of people we should do what we can to support those people who, as Deputy Perchard has quite rightly pointed out, might face extreme situations and we need to show Jersey to be the compassionate society that it is. I hope that further explains my amendments and, as I say, I am grateful to Deputy Perchard and Senator Gorst , the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services, for accepting my amendments.

2. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

Can I add my thanks to officers, to Ministers, to Members of the Assembly, especially to Deputy Gardiner , most especially to members of the public - Polish and Ukrainian people - in Jersey who are doing their best to do all they can to help those in Ukraine? As I am always saying to my children, or anybody else who wants to listen, all you can do is your best. We have been living in extraordinary times. Brexit was a bit of a challenge. It looks like now it is a minor inconvenience. COVID over the last 2 years has been a challenge and, as terrible as it has been for some people, it can be nothing like what is going on in Ukraine at the moment. Jersey and the Channel Islands, more than others in the U.K., know what it is like to face occupation. At the start of the Occupation many folk from Jersey left, got on boats and went to the U.K. to get away from what might be about to happen. No questions were asked. They packed up and left and they were received gladly by those in England and further afield. Trying to negotiate a Jersey solution is something we must seek if it is at all possible. Let us do our absolute very best to do all we can to help those suffering these terrible, awful indescribable atrocities in the Ukraine today.

3. Senator K.L. Moore :

I would also like to add my thanks and gratitude to Deputies Perchard, Gardiner and Maçon for their swift action and bringing this proposition to the Assembly. It is absolutely the right thing to do but, as we yesterday debated the shipping sanctions, there are of course more things, particularly as an international finance centre, that we can and we must do. I would urge Members and officials, particularly the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services, to inform the Assembly as soon as possible when we can consider any further actions. Because that clarity I think is needed today. I commend this proposition.

[10:00]

4. Deputy L.B.E. Ash of St. Clement :

I think there are occasions when this Assembly acts in a tremendous unified manner and shows itself to a very good light to the outside world. I think yesterday at 5.30 p.m. we did not show ourselves in a very good light to the outside world because we were looking at Senator Gorst 's excellent actions that he has taken and we, as usual, debated for 15 minutes how that was going to be done. Fortunately this morning we seem to be in a different tone. As many within this Assembly, I grew up in the shadow of the Second World War, and when you do that you learn that war is not a pretty place to be. Many of the teachers at school had served in the war, my father remembers the V1 flying over London. Indeed he remembers one being shot down by a Spitfire landing on a local house and killing the family within it. He remembers a school in south London where 45 children were killed, again by a V1. My grandmother remembered sheltering under the stairs in Lewis ham as the might of the

Luftwaffe rained down. I also remember that my grandfather, who was in Italy, and served there and he hated the country. But the main reason he hated the country was he said that when they marched up through Italy he saw on the side of the road women and children literally starving. Many of those British troops did not eat for weeks because they gave away their rations to those people, despite the fact they themselves were very hungry. That is the reality of war. It is not good. If there is anything slightly good that comes out of this it should be the debt we owe those people who have always put themselves on the line for the freedoms we enjoy in this Island, indeed the freedoms that western Europe has enjoyed now for the best part of 80 years. I think in the words of Kipling, he quoted it, and I quote it again, because we are all too often critical of what we do as an Island and as a nation, as the U.K. He wrote a poem called Tommy. In it, it said: "For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' Chuck him out, the brute!' But it's Saviour of is country' when the guns begin to shoot." We should remember that tremendous debt we owe our armed services for the freedoms we enjoy today. This is not a new situation in Eastern Europe and I have a picture at home that my mother was going to throw out when my grandfather died. It is a rather emotive picture in a way. It was bought in 1957 to help the refugees from Hungary when the Russians invaded there to crush the Hungarian rebellion of 1956. My grandfather bought it here at a fundraising dinner in Jersey all those years ago. It is a tatty little picture with a tatty little frame. But what it has, it has a little girl peering round from behind a railway buffer looking for the next train out. It is a haunting image and it is an image we are seeing now again, today, in the Ukraine. I looked at it this morning and I thought how sad that history has again repeated itself. Sadly it will probably not be for the last time. Of course we will all support this, and thank you to Deputy Perchard for bringing it. I will quote at the end of this small speech the words of Martin Luther King: "Out of a mountain of despair comes a stone of hope." We can be that stone for some people in Ukraine.

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

I congratulate everyone concerned bringing this forward. Both Deputies Perchard and Maçon and everyone else involved. I have had the misfortune of assisting in disaster zones in the past where people have lost everything and fortunately for me not a war zone, but people have just had the clothes they are standing in and nothing else. It is truly heart-breaking. I fully endorse what is being done today. There are logistical problems which we will no doubt get over. There are a lot of families who have moved to Jersey to work who do not have huge accommodation, so that is something we will need to address with hotels and hostels, et cetera, but that is something that myself and colleagues in the Council of Ministers I am sure can handle. But, as I say, this is a truly exceptional circumstance and I fully endorse what is being said.

6. Senator L.J. Farnham :

I am sure Members will know that Jersey is fully aligned with the U.K. and other countries in their condemnation of Russia's aggressive action, and I know Senator Gorst will probably reassure Members that any new sanctions or asset freeze designations do take effect immediately, which means related funds and economic resources held in Jersey are frozen without notice and without delay. We have also acted to apply other sanctions quickly, for example, as was demonstrated yesterday at the end of the sitting. A most poignant image I saw today was of a 90 year-old lady, who finds herself sheltering in the same cellar as she did when the Nazis invaded, and I leave it at that. I will be fully supportive of the proposition.

7. Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin :

I absolutely applaud Deputy Perchard and Deputy Gardiner in bringing this proposition, and to Deputy Maçon for his amendment. I will of course be voting for this without hesitation. My father lived through the Occupation and his family suffered terribly. My mother, who was a small child, sat in bomb shelters in England and was evacuated to the countryside. I thank all who have worked on this proposition and, if you bear with me, I just want to find a message that my sister sent me yesterday morning. She is a director in International House and they have schools throughout Europe and she has visited Ukraine on numerous occasions. She sent this to me: "We have the director of the I.H. (International House) school in the centre of Kharkiv in a bomb shelter with his wife and dog. No news this morning yet from his son on the outskirts. Talia in Kyiv and Mariana in Lviv are hanging on in there somehow." These are people I have known for 30 years and it is absolutely heart- breaking. A message I would like to send to the oppressor is: it is far stronger and braver to love and I am extremely proud that Jersey is choosing love and support.

8. Deputy G.C. Guida of S. Lawrence:

This will be extremely short. This proposition and its amendment are a very pragmatic show of support from Jersey and of course the Ministry will do whatever they can to help.

9. Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter :

I was going to just stand up and say that - I am sure all Members know this - but there is nothing in the Control of Housing and Work Law that prevents Ukrainians from being in Jersey providing they have the right immigration visas. But after the excellent speeches of Deputy Luce and Deputy Ash, I thought I would just bring one reflection. It may be known that my father spent 5 years in a prisoner of war camp. He was captured retreating to Dunkirk in 1940. He ended up Colditz Castle and he ended up in Colditz Castle because he was a briber. Funnily enough he was quite tall and quite dark, therefore very distinctive, so he was not allowed to escape. He spoke about it very, very rarely as everybody knows of that generation did, but one of the memories I have, his comments, is he basically said the guards in the 8 prisoner-of-war camps he was in before he got to Colditz all had one consistent view: they wanted to go home to their families as much as he did. Let us remember those Russians who do not want to be part of this, who abhor exactly what is going on in their particular regime, and realise they want to go home to their families as much as the Ukrainians do.

10. Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think as others have said, and it is true of course, there is nothing glamorous, glorious or romantic about war. The reality is absolutely the reverse. Its devastation, its removal of livelihoods, its people fleeing for their lives; unfortunately sometimes war is necessary. It is right that we, as the democratically-elected Parliament of Jersey, earlier this week showed our condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and stood, and continued to stand, with the citizens of Ukraine as they seek to defend their country from the aggressors. The Minister for Home Affairs and myself accept this proposition in the spirit in which it is drafted. We are and were pleased to see the amendments to the visa regime that the Home Secretary announced earlier this week. The Minister for Home Affairs' officials have worked very hard on understanding what is possible within those amendments to the previously announced regime. So there is the emergency regime; there is also a continuance of a travel regime which the U.K. has in place. The Minister for Home Affairs' officials tell us that every individual that has currently contacted them, there is a way for them to get their family members into Jersey using the now-revised criteria. But that does not mean that he and I and our officials will not continue to speak to colleagues across the U.K. Government - both officials and Ministers - in the way that we would normally do if there are issues which arise in the coming days which perhaps do not quite fit that criteria. But he and I equally, for all of the reasons that Members I know will understand, value greatly our membership of the Common Travel Area and being aligned when it comes to immigration and border matters with the U.K. I know that the mover of the proposition, and Deputy Gardiner as well, accept that as well but it is right for this Assembly to approve, I believe, this proposition ensuring that Ministers are doing all that they can with counterparts to ensure that we play our full part when it comes to ensuring that family members can reach Jersey. We also support the very helpful amendment of Deputy Maçon because we must be clear today, and I hope that Members will be clear with constituents as well, there are some family members for whom it is simply a visa issue, and we are working with them to resolve those, and they

can provide both accommodation and financially for those family members that will now find their way here in Jersey. Let us be clear, we welcome those family members in our community and I am extremely humbled to hear the words of welcome of Members of the Assembly this morning, Sir, and I know that you share that as well, and will no doubt be saying more about that later in the week, so we welcome them all. There are those for whom that will not be an issue but, let us be clear, we already know that some of those seeking to come to our community - and we welcome these individuals as well - will require accommodation and will require financial support. We must be clear about that; let us not, when they arrive, then be unwelcoming in the support of the provision of accommodation and finances.

[10:15]

If we are really committed to standing with Ukraine and playing our part, then we must provide for them in this way. As I said in my statement on Tuesday, the Government has already set up a working group to work through that. You will be aware that there are lots of other pieces of work that are being built upon from other scenarios in order to do that and that work is well advanced. I am grateful to those officials right across government who are doing that. I should also say at this point that I am grateful for members of the public who have provided offers of support and transportation from the bordering countries to the Ukraine to bring family members back to Jersey. They have also offered financial support for, in some cases, substantial periods of time and we should not underestimate how welcome that is. So we are doing what the 2 Deputies ask us to do but I think it is really important that this Assembly stands by that work and shows its unanimous support for those Ukrainians fleeing for their lives. It is fair to say that the model of compassion that we see being lived out by Ukrainian citizens as they encounter Russian soldiers is one that we would all do well to observe and live by: the sharing of scarce resource of food and drink when water has been cut off and energy supplies have been cut off and yet they, to their aggressor, are finding in their hearts compassion and love. As I stand here, I do not understand how they are doing that, but they are and we pay tribute to them, and it is in that same spirit that we accept this proposition as amended today. If I could just indulge Members for one minute and move just from this direct proposition and return to the issue of sanctions. I know that Members are eager for us to make sanctions in a very timely manner and we are ensuring that we do that. Some Members of course have contacted me with their concerns about the timing in which the United Kingdom is bringing forward those sanctions which we are rightly, from a constitutional perspective, following for all the good reasons that Members know. I can reassure Members that we are not just sitting on our hands waiting for the United Kingdom to bring forward sanctions. In the same way that the Minister for Home Affairs' officials and my officials are liaising with U.K. counterparts, my officials are liaising with their U.K. counterparts in regard to - I am not sure if this is grammatically good or parliamentary - but to hurry along the necessary sanctions, so I do hear what Members have been saying to me in that regard. In that regard, I must put Members on notice that there is every possibility that where sanctions require further regulatory change, I will be seeking emergency sessions of this Assembly to ensure that - obviously the Greffier looks at me - any necessary regulatory change is brought forward in a very timely basis rather than simply waiting for the next States session. It is in that spirit of standing with the Ukrainian people that we welcome this proposition and we are pleased to accept it.

11. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

I stand not only to support the proposition and commend Deputies Perchard and Gardiner who brought it, in picking up the points made by the previous speaker in terms of ongoing support for Ukrainians that may come to the Island, I think it has been demonstrated, certainly at Parish Hall level, that the support from the general public is abundant. The abundance of gifts and donations which have been brought forward have been absolutely mind-boggling, if I can use that term. I would take the point and this opportunity to say that we must not lose sight of those that will not be able to flee, for whatever reason, the Ukraine and will find themselves in an occupied territory, such as many

did here during the war. It could be argued that those who flee may be the lucky ones and we must not lose sight of those who get left behind and we must not take our eye off the ball with regard to their welfare in the ongoing situation. I am sure our Minister for External Relations and Financial Services will be doing that. I say that with the experience of my late mother who was Belgian and who was occupied during the war who also had an extremely hard time. One heard tales of food deprivation, illness, families being displaced and I have a horrible suspicion this story will repeat itself in the Ukraine and we must keep our eye on the ball for those remaining as well.

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

I will be exceptionally brief. I have got to say I have not always been impressed with some of the actions and decisions of the States Assembly over the years but I was on Tuesday and I am today. By standing up and condemning Putin, his cronies and enablers on Tuesday, and I am sure agreeing unanimously to this very important practical proposition today, I would just like to paraphrase Churchill and say I think it is one of our finest hours, and I hope in the days and weeks to come we will continue to act in the same vein.

13. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Obviously I will not repeat what other Members have said very articulately. One of the images that has stuck out for me of this war, and I know that Senator Gorst talked about compassion, but was the reinforcement of the idea that these are very much invaders and they are not welcome. I know that the image - and the video, I think, went viral - of the person who stood up to the soldier and gave him some sunflower seeds. On the surface, one was thinking: "This is an interesting and superficially generous gesture" a bit like, I suppose, putting a flower into the barrel of the gun, but of course that was not what it was. It was accompanied by the words: "You will take these seeds and we are going to put them in your pocket so that when you die here on Ukrainian soil, the sunflowers will flourish. So go home now, you are not welcome here, and if you stay, you will die, but there will be sunflowers that grow in that place." I thought that captured very well the spirit and the mentality which is one of steeliness, one of: "Yes, please leave now. We will give you the chance but if you do not, we will fight and you will pay the consequences. Then after, when the war is over, there will be something good that comes out of it." I think that image is powerful. What I would like to remind us is that we do need to put this in context. We have seen a great outpouring of generosity throughout the Island. We are only talking about inviting relatives of Ukrainians that already live here. I remember watching the figures about which countries have taken how many refugees from Ukraine. That is not what we are doing. The U.K., I think, was only a fraction of the monumental welcome that Germany has shown, and has always shown recently, to refugees that are fleeing warfare. They have taken already over 1.1 million Ukrainians, and other countries are doing the same, so we do need to see this as the beginning, I think. Hopefully, it is not going to be a long war, nobody knows. I am very hopeful that peace talks will ensue; this war is not benefiting anyone, not the Ukrainians and certainly not the common average Russian people who are also the victims of this crazy dictator that we have on the border of Europe. That has got to be remembered as well. I would like to ask the proposer and any relevant Ministers who have yet to speak - and perhaps this is something that Deputy Morel can address in his capacity as one of the Ministers for Economic Development - has any thought been given to what the Ukrainians might do when they come here, when they join their families? If they are of working age, there is of course a dignity that comes with working and productivity, and I think that is generally a good thing. It might be beneficial for everybody involved as part of integration into the community, even if it is just for a short period of time, nobody knows; but clearly it will take time to rebuild Ukraine, certain parts of it, and certainly all of the economy and the damage that has already been done, even if the war were to stop tomorrow, as to how they might be allowed to possibly work in our Island. I know that that is not necessarily what we are talking about today but I think that needs to be looked at holistically. Certainly the Ukrainians that I have come across and know in Jersey are intelligent, hard-working people from a wide variety of

backgrounds, who all work and are very productive and active members of the community. I think we need to also think about that, which is why I welcome Deputy Maçon's amendments which add a little bit of meat to the bone about what the longer-term implications are for Ukrainians in Jersey. I will leave it there, there is no need for anymore words, but I ask those questions. If somebody could answer those, I would be grateful.

14. Senator J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Just to pick up on Deputy Tadier 's overall question; officers and Ministers were already discussing that last night, so I absolutely agree with all the sentiments expressed by, not only Deputy Tadier , but other Members who have spoken so far and I am sure all Members who are going to speak going forward. But we did consider this and officers have been asked to go away and consider this. Obviously the first point is to deal with the logistical issues that this proposition obviously has highlighted. As we also know, matters within how the U.K. have been dealing with visas have evolved very, very swiftly over the last basically 48 hours, and, in essence, have brought us all to the right position, which is why we can very happily accept the proposition. I really just want to say a couple of things. One is obviously, again, like many Members, I commend the work of officers to date, of politicians who have already been identified, of the Polish Consul and other Jersey supporters in all the effort that is going on. Emergencies Council will be meeting again tomorrow just to see what else can be done and to keep abreast of the situation. Separately, Sir, I have been discussing certain matters with both the C.E.O. (chief executive officer) and Ministers and, indeed, yourself since Monday and there will, I am sure, be further announcements forthcoming as matters progress. The flag of the Ukraine flies above the Government building, I am sure Members know, in support of the country and I am sure that many Members will be attending the vigil in the Royal Square tomorrow evening. No one can look at the images on the screens on the television, what I have been watching when I had my extended stay away, what we have been seeing on the television screens cannot touch anybody's hearts in this matter, particularly if we look at our small community and the oppression that we went through in the 1940 to 1945 period.

[10:30]

That is why I think this cuts across so many aspects of our community, and the community's response to date has been commendable. I am not going to say anything more, I do not think there is any need to, but certainly I and many Members will be supporting this proposition.

15. Deputy K.G. Pamplin of St. Saviour :

I only want to say, because it has not been mentioned, in doing the preparations for celebrations of Liberation Day, one of the striking images of many I spoke to, spoke of the momentous moment that stuck in the hearts of many Islanders, the Vega ship, the Red Cross, and what those parcels meant to Islanders. I only want to mention the Red Cross because they of course right now are doing the same for people who are staying in Ukraine. If you are listening to this and are compelled to do something, then may I humbly suggest you donate to the Red Cross who are there doing things, and I commend the overseas aid money that is being offered and the work of our Government in the situation. I would like to say, as always, if there are any refugees who come to this Island, my home is open, me and my family will ably take anybody who needs a home.

The Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on the proposition? If no other Member wishes to speak on the proposition, then I close the debate, and call upon Deputy Perchard to respond.

16. Deputy J.H. Perchard:

Thank you to all Members who participated in the debate. Thank you to the Assembly for agreeing to reduce the lodging on the proposition in the first place. Just in response to the questions raised by Deputy Tadier . The Deputy is absolutely right, this should be seen as the beginning. I agree with

the principle that we should be taking anyone fleeing a war zone. Unfortunately, I do understand at the moment that we just cannot, we just do not have the power to make that decision right now, but that is something I hope that we can continue to discuss and personally that would be something I would want to work towards in the future. The question raised was: has any thought been given to what Ukrainians might do when they come here? I think that is a really pertinent question and I think the answer to it will develop and evolve over time. The way I see the order of events is: how do we give them access? How do we give people physical access? So, for me, that was the urgent part and that was the kind of purpose of bringing the proposition, to have a discussion about how do we give people physical access to the Island, to their family? The second part for me would be the humanitarian aspect, so how do we then support? If people are coming with rucksacks on their back and they have not filled them with their most sentimentally-treasured items, they have probably just bare essentials, sanitary towels, toothbrushes, passports, so what will these people need? But also the emotional and psychological impact of what they have just been through. These people are going to be in shock during travel. I know, I have spoken to people whose relatives are just adrenaline- fuelled, they are just running on adrenaline. When they finally arrive at a point that is considered the end point, these people will be in shock and then the consequences of that shock will take effect. We are talking about P.T.S.D. (post-traumatic stress disorder), so for me the humanitarian aspect is so important. That is why getting to family is so important because already that will be part of the healing process for people, that feeling of safety and security that comes with the familiar, that comes with people you know, people who speak the same language as you. So, for me, the first kind of tranche of support should be the humanitarian aspect and the psychological, emotional aspect, because over a longer period of time, that early intervention will have the most significant impact on a person's ability to become a member of a community, to become a member of a society, to integrate into a new place. Should they want to say here .. because that is the other question. These people, they want to go home, so I really welcome the comments regarding the consideration of the longer- term view and that would be my personal view. Because at the moment, I mentioned in the opening remarks, we are using the visa mechanisms we have to get people here but sometimes that means using a tourist visa which does not come with a package of any other support. That is just what you would normally use if you wanted to visit family in the Island and, clearly, that is not going to be enough. I do know that the Government are fully aware of this and are working on it. I did speak to an officer yesterday who assured me that there is already a - I am sorry, I do not know exactly what they are calling themselves - but a group, a cross-sectional government group that has already met, and I am sure will continue to meet, to talk about the humanitarian support package that needs to be put in place to ensure that people's mental health and well-being and physical health and well-being are being considered, even if they come here on a tourist visa, because they are not tourists, so that is happening. Then obviously the addition of Deputy Maçon's amendment deals with some of the other things around that, so I am really grateful to him for bringing that as well. But, as I said, my primary concern at the moment was just about getting people here, and particularly people who currently do not meet the criteria. At the moment, that is aunts and cousins now, pretty much, and for me it is really .. as I say, this is not just kind of reaching for the edges of a hypothetical case, this is happening to a person in Jersey who was brought up by her aunt, so was basically a mother to her but is not her biological mother, and wants to get her here. So, for me, that is something I really wanted to drive home today, was the potential for us to sort that out without having to wait for the U.K. definition of extended family to include the aunt. For me, that was a really big part of today and so I hope, in addition to the comments made by everyone who participated, that is something the Ministers take away and work towards resolving as quickly as possible as well. I thank the Ministers who are directly involved. The Minister for Home Affairs, the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services are proactively trying to deal with these things but it is moving at such a pace, it is complicated and I appreciate that. But I hope we can work together and continue to collaborate across the Assembly, whether you are a Back-Bencher or a Member of Government, to pursue these outcomes for people because it is making a difference. Every minute, every hour, every day for these

people is significant. We cannot start to pursue things that will take weeks, we need to act as quickly as we can with the tools that we currently have available; again, that is the point of today's discussion. But thank you to the Assembly for throwing their weight behind this. It is really emotive for me and I know Deputy Gardiner feels the same; it is emotive for everybody and I really appreciate the support. So, I thank you and I maintain the proposition.

The Bailiff :

I invite Members to return to their seats and I ask the Greffier to open the voting. Senator I.J. Gorst :

Could we raise the défaut on Senator Vallois, please?

The Bailiff :

Yes, the défaut is raised on Senator Vallois.

The Greffier of the States:

She was excusé.

The Bailiff :

You were excusé, in any event. Yes, that is right, because you said you might be online, so at the moment we are still operating with those online. The voting is open. If Members have had the opportunity of casting their votes, then I ask the Greffier to close the voting. The proposition has been adopted: 45 votes pour; no votes contre; no abstentions[1].

[Approbation]

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS The Bailiff :

Very well, that concludes Public Business before the Assembly and I call upon the chair of P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) to propose the order for public business in the future.

2. Deputy C.S. Alves of St. Helier (Chair, Privileges and Procedures Committee):

There have been a couple of changes since the publication of the Consolidated Order Paper. These include the Draft Criminal Procedure (Consequential Amendments - Access to Justice) (Jersey) Regulations, P.4/2022, which was deferred from this week to the meeting of 29th March, while Community costs bonus: increase, P.39/2022, was lodged yesterday and has also been listed for the meeting on 29th March. The next meeting on Monday, 14th March is a special meeting to consider the bridging Island Plan and 9 continuation days have been identified. I believe that a number of Members have indicated to the States Greffe that they intend to withdraw an amendment. Can I just ask that any Member that is thinking of doing this, please give confirmation to the Greffier so that Members are aware in advance of the debate what they will need to consider? Obviously it is hard to predict how long the next meeting will last and there is also quite a lot of business listed for the meeting of 29th March as well. So, with that, I propose the Arrangement of Public Business for Future Meetings.

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Deputy Alves . Are the arrangements seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak on the arrangement?

1. The Deputy of St. Peter :

Given the huge amount of amendments for the Bridging Island Plan, would it be maybe sensible, certainly for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, to go through to say 6.30 p.m. so we can see what progress we make in getting through this huge agenda?

The Bailiff :

Is that something you are simply asking for consideration by the chair of P.P.C.? The Deputy of St. Peter :

Yes.

2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade :

I think there are a number of practical arrangements I have requested that will be made to assist Members on what potentially could be a marathon session on 14th March on the bridging Island Plan. I just want to advise Members that in order to assist, I have asked my officers to prepare a schedule of all the amendments, where we know those I intend to accept those amendments, those where I do not. In fact, as far as I can, I am intending that that schedule will be published in time before the Assembly, which I think should help Members. The other thing, as you know, I think I have asked for a number of practical changes to arrangements in the States sitting that day in order to facilitate the session, for example, the presence of planning officers in the precinct to be able to deal with Members' enquiries during the session. I do not probably need to say anymore but I think I am conscious of the need to do everything I can to try and assist the Assembly with what is a very, very marathon session.

The Bailiff :

Deputy , if I could just come back on that particular point as it deals with the operation of the sitting week. As is usual, the States Greffe is in the process of preparing a running order for the purposes of the Island Plan debate. Rather than having 2 separate documents, which may not indeed reach the same conclusion as to an appropriate running order, I wonder if you would ask your officers to make available as soon as possible the list that you are suggesting to the States Greffe so that a single running order can be issued to Members as soon as possible. Of course, to facilitate that, if it is indeed the case, as the chair of P.P.C. has made allusion to, that there are any amendments which are likely to be withdrawn, those could of course affect significantly the running order that is about to be prepared, or is in the process of being prepared, by the States Greffe. Accordingly, if any Member is intending to do that, if they can notify the States Greffe at the earliest opportunity. Does any Member wish to speak on the arrangement for future business?

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can I just confirm that that is my intention, to work with the Greffe to try and facilitate what you have just suggested?

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much indeed, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak on the order of future business?

3. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier :

It is Deputy Labey . I wonder if I might just comment on something that the Minister for the Environment has just said. I think it would be extremely helpful and courteous if the department were to inform Members who have put in amendments, whether their amendment has been accepted, whether it is being rejected or whether it is being amended because that is standard practice and it would be enormously helpful for people.

The Bailiff :

Well I think, Deputy , that is exactly what the Minister for the Environment has just said, that he will be preparing a list to indicate what he is accepting and what he is not accepting and what his view is on it. We have asked to incorporate that in the running order to be done by the States Greffe, so I think you will be getting that as a matter of course. Does any other Member wish to speak on the order of business? Very well, if no other Member wishes to speak, I will take that as an assumed standing vote and we stand adjourned until 14th March.

ADJOURNMENT [10:45]