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STATES OF JERSEY
OFFICIAL REPORT
TUESDAY, 5th JULY 2022
COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ........................................ 4
1.1 Tribute to former Deputy Gary Matthews................................................ 4 APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS ........................... 4
2. Selection of Chief Minister designate...................................................... 4
- Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade : .......................................................... 6
- Deputy M. Tadier :.......................................................................... 7
- Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : .................................................. 7
- The Connétable of St. Helier : .............................................................. 8
- Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier Central :............................................... 8
- Deputy G.P. Southern : ..................................................................... 8
- Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier Central : ................................................... 8
- Deputy R.J. Ward : ......................................................................... 9
- Connétable K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour : .................................................... 9
- The Connétable of St. Saviour : ......................................................... 9
- Deputy L.J. Farnham of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter : ............................. 9
- Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 10
- Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier North : ............................................... 10
- Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : ............................................. 10
- The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 10
- Deputy L. Feltham of St. Helier Central : .............................................. 11
- Deputy L. Feltham : .................................................................... 11
- Deputy R. Kovacs of St. Saviour : ..................................................... 11
- Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 11
- Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ...................................... 11
- The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 12
- Deputy C.S. Alves of St. Helier Central : .............................................. 12
- Deputy C.S. Alves : .................................................................... 12
- Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier North : ............................................... 12
- Deputy I. Gardiner : .................................................................... 13
- Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour : ............................................... 13
- Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : .............................................................. 13
- Deputy K.F. Morel of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : ............................ 13
- Deputy H. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : .............................. 14
- Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 14
- Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity : .................................................. 14
- Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South : .................................................. 15
- Deputy B. Porée : ...................................................................... 15
- Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary : .................................................. 15
- Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat of St. Helier North : ......................................... 16
- Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat : .............................................................. 16
- Deputy C. Curtis of St. Helier Central : ................................................ 16
- Deputy C. Curtis :...................................................................... 16
- Connétable A.N. Jehan of St. John : ................................................... 17
- The Connétable of St. John : ........................................................... 17
- Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville and St. Martin : ...................................... 17
- Deputy C.F. Labey : .................................................................... 17
- Deputy S.G. Luce of Grouville and St. Martin : ....................................... 17
- Deputy L. Stephenson of St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter : .......................... 18
- Deputy L. Stephenson : ................................................................ 18
- Deputy P.M. Bailhache of St. Clement : ............................................... 18
- Deputy M.R. Ferey of St. Saviour :.................................................... 18
- Deputy M.R. Ferey : .................................................................... 19
- Deputy A. Curtis of St. Clement : ...................................................... 19
- Deputy A. Curtis : ...................................................................... 19
- Deputy T. Coles of St. Helier South : .................................................. 19
- Deputy T. Coles : ...................................................................... 20
- Deputy E. Millar of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : .............................. 20
- Deputy A. Howell of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity : ............................ 20
- Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 20
- Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 20
- Deputy R.J. Ward : ..................................................................... 21
- Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 23
- Deputy M. Tadier :........................................................................ 23
- Deputy S.M. Ahier : ....................................................................... 24
- Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 24
- Deputy R.J. Ward : ........................................................................ 24
- Deputy L. Stephenson : .................................................................... 25
- The Connétable of St. Helier : ............................................................ 25
- The Connétable of St. Helier : ............................................................ 26
- Deputy I. Gardiner : ....................................................................... 26
- Deputy I. Gardiner : .................................................................... 26
- Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : .............................................................. 27
- Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : .............................................................. 27
- Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 27
- Deputy R. Kovacs : .................................................................... 28
- Deputy M.R. Ferey : .................................................................... 28
- Deputy M.R. Ferey : .................................................................... 28
- Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 29
- Deputy H. Jeune : ...................................................................... 29
- Deputy K.F. Morel : .................................................................... 29
- Deputy K.F. Morel : .................................................................... 30
- The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 30
- The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 31
- Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 31
- The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 31
- The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 32
- Deputy J. Renouf of St. Brelade :...................................................... 32
- Deputy J. Renouf : ...................................................................... 32
- Deputy A. Curtis : ...................................................................... 33 2,2,29 Deputy A. Curtis : ...................................................................... 33
- Deputy D. Warr of St. Helier South : .................................................. 34
- Deputy M. Scott of St. Brelade : ....................................................... 34
- Deputy B. Ward of St. Clement : ...................................................... 35
- Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 35
- Deputy L.J. Farnham : .................................................................. 36
- Deputy P.M. Bailhache : ............................................................... 36
- Deputy B. Porée : ...................................................................... 36
- Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin :.......................................... 37
- The Connétable of St. Martin : ......................................................... 37
- The Connétable of St. John : ........................................................... 37
- The Connétable of St. John : ........................................................... 37
- Deputy C. Curtis :...................................................................... 38
- Deputy E. Millar :...................................................................... 38
[9:31]
The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER
The Bailiff :
1.1 Tribute to former Deputy Gary Matthews
Members may be aware that former Deputy Gary Matthews passed away last week. Mr. Matthews was educated at Hautlieu and then obtained a degree in politics from Warwick University. On returning to Jersey he worked in a variety of jobs and had a management position in the travel industry for some 10 years. He was elected as a Deputy in 1993, having topped the poll in his District of St. Brelade No. 2. He stood for election with an agenda focusing upon free prescriptions, better childcare and sought to develop a more transparent style of government. He also hoped for more diversity within the Assembly and wanted to see younger people from broader backgrounds coming forward to represent Islanders. He served just one term, and was something of a controversial politician during his time in the Chamber, perhaps because much of his focus was on addressing Islander's rights many years before specific legislation was adopted by the Assembly. He was keen to see the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child extended to Jersey and also championed the introduction of discrimination legislation in the Island. One might say he was ahead of his time in those respects. During his term of office, Mr. Matthews was a member of the Public Services and Sport, Leisure and Recreation committees and the État Civil Committee and was part of a working party established in 1994 to consider the possible introduction of freedom of information legislation and policies. He was very active in asking questions in this Chamber and was particularly concerned with environmental issues, especially in relation to Jersey's proximity to the French nuclear plants, and he spoke out against the resumption of nuclear bomb testing in the Pacific by France, which was taking place in the mid-1990s. He stood unsuccessfully as a Senator in October 1996 and then lost his seat in the subsequent Deputy 's election in November 1996. After this he left the Island and moved with his family to the United Kingdom but sadly his health declined, and by 2011 he was registered blind. Perhaps unsurprisingly, given his strongly-held political beliefs and sense of social justice, he campaigned to alert others to the difficulties associated with his disability and he challenged unfairness when it came to his attention. He remained passionate about his wish for ordinary people to mobilise to represent their interests. I ask Members to stand to observe a minute's silence. [Silence] May he rest in peace.
APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS 2. Selection of Chief Minister designate The Bailiff :
The only item of business before the Assembly today is the selection of a Chief Minister designate. There are 2 nominations and accordingly I will draw lots to determine the order in which the candidates will address the Assembly. I pointedly look in the other direction. Deputy Moore will be the first to address the Assembly. I will invite Deputy Moore firstly and then Deputy Mézec to speak and answer questions. Candidates will be able to speak for up to 10 minutes and then Members will have up to one hour to ask them questions. The Greffier will ring a bell to signal when the 10 minutes is up and similarly will ring a bell when we reach the one-hour limit. When both candidates have made speeches and answered questions then we will take a recorded vote and the candidate who receives more than half of the votes cast will be appointed as Chief Minister designate. When one candidate is speaking and answering questions, the other candidate will have to withdraw from the meeting. Staff from the States Greffe will accompany them to a quiet room and stay with them until it is their turn to return. I therefore ask Deputy Mézec to leave the Chamber.
After a career spent looking in on this Chamber and reporting its decisions, it can only be described as an immense honour to be standing here surrounded by this fantastic new and diverse Assembly, ready to lead the Island and set out my vision for Jersey's exciting new chapter ahead. I would like to welcome all of the new Members in particular today. Whatever responsibilities they will take on over the coming years I hope that they will find the experience productive and enjoyable. Whatever happens today I look forward to working with everyone in this Chamber one way or another, to deliver a better future for our Island. This is not a typical job. It is more a way of life. There are no formal hours, and the workplace sometimes follow Members wherever they go. But it is a huge privilege to play a small part in the life of our small community. We are the most digitally-connected community on the planet but we also have an incredible network built around us, through old- fashioned human contact. That is what I loved so much about the Island when I arrived here half a lifetime ago. A sense of belonging. But, as we have heard over the course of the election, that connectivity has been lost. My challenge to everyone here in this Chamber, and beyond, is to join me. To join me on a mission to rebuild trust, to unite our wonderful community, and to perform our own reset and put our Island back on track. As States Members, we are here simply to represent the people who have elected us and to exercise our judgment on their behalf. As the former Lieutenant Governor said to us last week, clear communication of decisions will be essential. To be effective in our roles and to restore trust, we must engage differently and for me that requires listening as well as telling. We know our Island has challenges. We have heard it on the doorsteps, at hustings and online. Those issues are clear and we know what we need to do because the public have given their backing to our ideas. The first step is to believe in ourselves again. To rediscover and celebrate our entrepreneurial spirit. It is clear from each manifesto that I have read that there is a unity of purpose in this Chamber, a willingness to address the issues facing us, to take the tough decisions when necessary but to do so in a better way that is collaborative. Of course, that will lead to debate, discussion and indeed disagreement at times, but that is not a bad thing and that should be welcomed.
[9:45]
If I am elected to lead the next Government I will embrace those challenges and listen to those who have a different perspective in order to achieve better outcomes for Islanders. Sir, last week when you addressed us privately in this Chamber on our first day, you did, if I may, describe how challenges can be seen also as opportunities, and I would certainly agree with that view. Of course, there will be setbacks but I believe that we learn from the tough times in life. One of the qualities that I hope will help me, if I am elected Chief Minister, is my resilience. Like most people I have been tested and experienced setbacks in life. But resilience is key. It helps us to keep going when times are tough, to look past disagreements or hurdles of the day and to focus on the bigger picture. One of the things about resilience is building a strong support team. It is that team that will help to take the strain when needed and keep moving forward. I have been lucky to have strong teams around me throughout my life, whether at work or in my circle of family and friends. Cohesive teamwork will overcome challenges and my goal is that all of us work together, acknowledge setbacks, admit it when there are mistakes made, and focus on delivering on the people's priorities. We have, among us, a wealth of talent. We can build a strong team that will indeed deliver for Jersey. Now some discussion is ongoing but I will circulate my preferred slate of Ministerial roles later today. In drawing up this list I have sought to balance experience and values to ensure that we have a Council that reflects Islanders priorities. In bringing a Government together, I remain strongly of the view that this will only work if all of us across the Chamber, in Government and Scrutiny, have roles to play. But we share a common objective: to deliver the best decisions for the Island. If successful this morning, I have committed to delivering a number of actions during the first 100 days. Let me briefly outline some of those key issues and how we will start to address them. On the cost-of-living crisis there is no time to waste. I will work with the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Council of Ministers to develop a mini budget that will be debated at the first sitting in September.
This will bring forward a suite of measures to support Islanders ahead of winter. I agree with Deputy Mézec and his Reform colleagues that we do have a housing crisis. Therefore, we must tackle it as a priority. The issue permeates through everything. People are leaving our Island, we are struggling to retain staff in critical services and our children and grandchildren are telling us that they do not see a future here as they cannot see themselves getting on to that property ladder. We must increase the supply of housing quickly with swift planning decisions and introduce schemes to help people purchase homes such as rent-to-buy schemes. We must ensure that we are better supporting and protecting those in the rental sector. On the hospital, a brief review is necessary. I have committed to conducting that within 90 days. We must deliver a hospital. However, like many members of the public, I consider the current proposal just does not make sense. We must have the full facts and costs to weigh up whether a change of course will deliver a facility that is both affordable and appropriate for our needs. I will appoint a lead Minister for this important project and we will get a new hospital built. Beyond the first 100 days, wider aims will protect our Island for future generations. Like community safety, the environment is often taken for granted. We must protect our beautiful natural heritage. We can also commit to improving the quality of our air, water and soil. As a commuter whose preferred mode of transport is a bicycle, I understand the benefits of active travel and will ensure that the next Government delivers a sustainable transport policy, which will reduce traffic and boost well-being. The Government that I would lead will focus on delivery and to that end each Minister will have to put forward an annual work programme and report to the Assembly on its progress, and Scrutiny will be able to assess it. We will engage with the States and Scrutiny in a transparent and open manner and restore lines of accountability and government departments creating a Cabinet Office. We will do away with the title "Assistant Minister" and replace it with a name that reflects the role and responsibilities that officeholder has, for example, Minister for Sport. If I lead the Government we will listen, listen to our voters, to our front-line staff, to the Members of this Assembly. Our roles also extend to our relations with the outside world. Whoever is elected today, one of their first engagements will be to attend the British-Irish Council in Guernsey as Chief Minister designate. This is a significant opportunity to officially greet our closest neighbour and members of the wider union. When we look out beyond St. Ouen 's Bay or the north coast we are reminded that we are part of the Channel Islands. I look forward to having a constructive relationship with our sister Island; again, we are stronger together. Let us not forget that for many businesses they have offices in both bailiwicks so we should remain mindful of that when developing policies that could complicate that work. That is not to say that the focus would be entirely Anglo- centric. As a French speaker, and of Norman heritage myself, we must also develop stronger ties with our French neighbours and also recognise the important contribution that many other cultures and communities play in Island life. The people of Jersey have made it clear at the ballot box that they want change. I want to deliver that change with you and unite our community to deliver a better future. A Chief Minister can of course set a direction, direct the strategy, but they deliver through teamwork. This will be a Government that listens, a Government that collaborates, and a Government that is held accountable. If successful today, I will look to all who are here to hold me to account. I am most grateful to everyone who has signed my nomination paper and the messages of support that have been so warmly sent. Thank you and thank you, Sir. I look forward now to questions.
[Approbation] The Bailiff :
There is now a period of one hour of questions for the candidate and, as I indicated earlier, I will allow one supplemental question to follow on from the question although, as I say, Members can come back and ask further questions if we run out of those seeking to ask questions for the first time.
The candidate spoke about the electorate wanting change and about unity of purpose in this Assembly. But would she explain, for example, why she voted against the landlord licensing scheme, a landlord herself, and why she voted consistently against progressive taxation? Is it not a case that in this Assembly we represent socioeconomic needs of Islanders and we can either represent those who are already have power, wealth and money or we can represent those who are at the bottom end and do not have that? Is a vote for her not just a vote for more of the same?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That was an extensive question to which I will try to provide a relatively concise answer. But at the heart, I think I made it very clear in my manifesto, that one of the reasons we have fallen back in the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) Better Life Index is because wages, in particular, have fallen behind. I have committed to putting us back into the top 20 of that Better Life Index. I do believe that we need to close some of the gaps in our society but I believe that in doing that we need to generate greater activity in our business community. That means keeping our taxes low, broad, simple and fair because it is simply one of the U.S.P.s (unique selling points) of our Island system. However, I would say that I do not always vote against what the Deputy might consider to be progressive tax measures. Indeed, in the end of the last Assembly I brought forward changes to the community cost bonus, which was there to encourage a greater focus on those who will have struggles with the increasing cost of living. To answer the particular point about the landlord licensing scheme, that was perhaps not one of my finest votes at the last Assembly, I have to say. But what I did believe at the time, and the reason I voted against it, was because I thought there was a simpler option available to us to better protect tenants and landlords. I thought that that was through making the rent-to-buy scheme a mandatory scheme. It is already in existence and I thought it should have parity with the eat safe scheme. So, I therefore brought a proposition to do just that following the defeat of the licensing landlord scheme.
The candidate did talk about cost of living in Jersey. Does she recognise that it is high rents that are crippling people, irrespective of whether wages are going up or staying the same? What specific steps will she bring to tackle high rents in the private sector?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Supply. We need to see a greater level of supply, and I talked about that in my speech. I also acknowledge that high level of rents is one of those factors that is putting additional pressure on people. I conducted a survey some months ago and I was really shocked to see that 40 per cent of people who answered the survey identified that they were paying 60 per cent and more of their household income on housing costs. That is something that does need to change. I believe that additional supply and better-quality accommodation will help to do that.
Would the candidate briefly outline her vision for the improvement of St. Helier as the Island's capital over the next 4 years?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
In a Jersey Opinion and Lifestyle survey some time ago, it was very clear that only 30 per cent of people living in St. Helier say that they enjoy living in their surrounding environment, as opposed to over 70 per cent in the country Parishes. St. Helier does need a greater level of focus. It needs greening up most definitely. I would most certainly want to work closely with the Constable of St. Helier in delivering a better and greener St. Helier . That would include encouraging greater use of bicycles and hopefully removing as many cars and on-street parking as we can in order to provide a widening of streets and pocket parks that could be made available if those spaces were used differently.
Given the findings of the lifestyle survey why is the improvement of St. Helier not one of the points listed as the first 100-day plan? I see there are 18 of them. Could I suggest that it would be appropriate to have a 19th point on the improvement of access to town, including long overdue walking and cycling routes, bus and parking strategies, increased provision of disabled parking and improved arrangements for unloading bays?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
The thing about a 100-day plan is that it does have to be realistic. I think there might be questions from others later asking whether some elements of it are. So, this is going to be about delivery. We do need to make promises that we can deliver upon. Therefore, I believe that we could put the greening of St. Helier and improved sustainable transport schemes into the second 100 days, as something that will be delivered over a longer period of time.
Between 2014 and 2018 the Deputy was part of an austerity Government charged with making cruel cuts to services by her fellow candidate. Has the Deputy changed her views on austerity?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I did not agree with all of the decisions that were taken at that time perhaps, and some of them I was more comfortable than others. I would not have called it entirely an austerity Government however. We did do an awful lot of good. We focused on the first 1,001 days of life. We made a great deal of positive changes. I do not see that an austerity vision is the way forward at this particular moment in time. Yes, there are financial struggles ahead and challenges but at this particular moment in time I think they can be dealt with in a different way.
Specifically, did the candidate support or otherwise the cuts to single parent benefits? Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think that was one of the ones that I had a deal of difficulty with.
[10:00]
The Deputy has proposed extending the school day and I would like to ask: will this be in all schools and education sectors, how will it be funded, and who will staff it?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That is a good example of an area where we will need to work closely both with the schools but also the unions and the voluntary sector as well, because there are many different ways of achieving this. I think D'Auvergne School is a really good example of how that can be delivered in an affordable fashion but does not put additional pressure on the staff of the school because I am fully aware that teachers have a very heavy workload and that has to be respected. But we do have many other groups around the Island who can assist in delivering those additional activities at an affordable rate, and I look forward to delivering a plan along with teachers and Comite Scolaire in each and every Parish, which is also something that was in my manifesto, so that there is a stronger link between particularly the Parish schools and their surrounding Parish communities.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Just the first question, I was asking whether it be in all sectors; I wonder if that could be answered first before I do my supplementary. It was a long question.
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Apologies for missing that aspect. I would say that would be a matter for the schools but ultimately and initially the focus would be on primary education.
Given workload is a key factor in all teaching surveys that are featured in the teaching surveys for staff for many years, and is an issue which is affecting the recruitment and retention of staff and our failure to do so, how will the Deputy address that particular problem of workload for staff, given that you are looking to extend the school day?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think I made that quite clear in my initial answer because it is a blended solution recognising the workload of teachers. Teachers were very clear when we all went to the education hustings that they are exhausted and they feel that there are significant pressures in recruitment at the moment. So, we need to offer an education team that is one that teachers would want to come to because we need to attract teachers at this time, and so it would not be placing an additional and unsustainable burden upon them.
During my recent canvassing many of my constituents lament the loss of Senators. Would the Deputy give her view, especially as a proposition has been lodged, on the return of Senators or possibly an Island-wide mandate?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I do not see the role of Senators as one of our top priorities at this time. I think we should be focusing on housing, the cost of living and achieving greater prosperity in our community. I was very clear when people bemoaned the loss of Senators during the election campaign that although I was sad not to represent the whole island and to be asking for that vote, I did feel that we had a really healthy level of competition in each and every Deputy 's district, and I would like to see that level of competition and choice for voters continue. What I would really like to focus on, in terms of electoral reform, would be encouraging more people in St. Helier to firstly register to vote and, secondly, go out and vote.
Does the Deputy not believe that the whole Island should have a say in who is going to be Chief Minister and not one particular political zone?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That could be said but there are detractors who do not think that would be a good thing. Personally, I think it would. I do believe that the Democratic Accountability Subcommittee suggested an Island- wide pole for Chief Minister in their recent excellent report.
The Deputy has committed to carrying out a brief review on the hospital project. Given her own well-known views on the project, how will she ensure that review is impartial?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
The facts will speak for themselves. What we need to see is the quantum of money that can be saved by a change of course. The Scrutiny Panels that I have chaired and the reports that we have published during the past 4 years have been really clear. Firstly, they told us that the site selection process was flawed, then they told us that the access road was questionably necessary as it was only one point away from staying as it is, then in the outline business case it was identified that the size and scale of the current project is not properly justified. Therefore there are serious questions, particularly the state of the local and global economy at this period compared to what it was when the planning application was submitted in August. So I think it would be wrong not to ask those deep and meaningful questions about changing tack and focusing on achieving an affordable and an appropriate hospital solution for the Island.
I do not disagree with the Deputy that we have to ask those questions and it has to be based on the evidence, and I think on the sound evidence and process that the former Assembly approved.
The Bailiff :
This must be a question. Deputy L.J. Farnham :
Will the Deputy commit to ensuring that the review is indeed event-led based on the facts and conducted impartially. That I think means not placing Members in charge of it who have previously expressed their opposition.
Deputy K.L. Moore :
This would be a technical review and a technical exercise essentially, and therefore it would be impartial. I am sure there will be plenty of documentation for Members and a potential Scrutiny Panel to assess and we can all draw our own conclusions upon the evidence.
What action would the Deputy take to assist those who have received funds from the co-funded payroll scheme and are now being told that they have to reimburse that subsidy?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I would very much like to work with the next the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture to consider an appeals process for this. One that would not take up a lot more of our officials' time however, because they have spent a lot of time dealing with some very distressed people in this scenario. But it is clear, and I am aware anecdotally, that there are only a very small number of claimants who are not considered to be genuine and therefore I think some clear decisions could be made to find a way forward so that we can put an end to the situation.
Given the Island's ambition to achieve carbon neutrality as soon as possible, would the Deputy agree that the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for energy is of prime importance, together with an associated Scrutiny Panel?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Yes.
Would the Deputy agree that the cost consequence of achieving carbon neutrality by 2030 is such that it is unlikely to be achieved?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That is a more complex question and I am grateful for it. The costs of course have to be achievable because otherwise the aims will not be deliverable. So we do need to, as an Assembly, work on creating with the new Minister for the Environment and Minister for Energy a set of plans that we can roll out that minimise the costs.
The candidate has an ambitious 100-day plan set before us. I would like to ask the candidate how she intends to resource that plan so it may be delivered both in terms of budget and in terms of staff to deliver it.
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That will be of prime importance but what is really clear at the moment is that one of the consequences of rising costs is that G.S.T. (goods and services tax) revenue, in particular, and that from other duties, has also risen, so there is some revenue there and available to be redistributed in a targeted fashion and delivered in those first 100 days.
Government departments are already working to their published business plans, and I am sure the candidate has read those. If it becomes apparent that there is not enough resource within the public sector to deliver the 100-day plan, in addition to the business plans that are already being worked on, what work would the candidate stop in order to deliver her plan?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
That would be a matter for the Council of Ministers, if they were to stop any of that. But business plans are developed in the knowledge that this is an election year and therefore the civil service are very well-accustomed to changing tack, changing tempo and changing emphasis as a result of an election otherwise an election would not be a worthwhile exercise.
In the interest of being transparent, can the candidate confirm if during discussions any Ministerial and Assistant Ministerial positions have been promised to anyone and if so, what positions and to whom?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I have been quite careful when collecting signatures not to make any promises. However, of course, as discussions have begun to progress we are, as I said in my speech, becoming very close to having a slate of Ministerial roles. However, there are still some final discussions to have but I could say, for example, and name some of those potential Ministers, if I may. I would like to appoint Deputy Gorst as the future Minister for Treasury and Resources with Financial Services and I would like to see Deputy Renouf , sitting before me, as a Minister for Environment and Energy. I hope that will suffice for the time being.
As we have a housing crisis, do you have anyone in mind for the Housing Department? Deputy K.L. Moore :
That is one of the issues that is not quite bottomed out yet but it is absolutely, as you say, the first priority and therefore it is absolutely critical that we have the right person in that position.
Keeping with housing, the candidate for Chief Minister is clearly focusing on that, and she referred in her opening remarks to making swift decisions to increase the housing supply. My question to her is: what are her plans to change the current planning application process to deliver on that?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I would hope that a new Minister would be able to give some indication to the Planning Department about priorities. If we are going to prioritise housing and the delivery of it then we can direct officials to prioritise certain types of decision-making. I have set out in my manifesto what I think is quite a controversial idea in terms of restricting the building of larger properties over a period of time because we know that we need to manage our construction industry and enable them to better have a flow of work, so it is about priorities.
It is also about taking the public with us as a body and clearly if we give priority to some planning applications, others will lose out. At the moment I believe there is a 13-week waiting period before any planning application is considered. How does the candidate for Chief Minister think that giving precedence to housing applications will affect other applications that are viewed by many as priority to them?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
It is a fair point but somebody has to take that decision and that direction because I am aware that it is almost impossible to find more staff to deliver a speedier planning application process. I think the public can see the distinct challenges that we have in our community at this time and those that particularly relate to a lack of accommodation. Therefore, I would beg them to take some understanding from that and to work with us because this is going to be a team effort.
The candidate has stated that she favours a dual site option for the hospital over the current plans at Overdale. Can the candidate inform the Assembly what clinical risk assessment has been done in relation to this option, please?
[10:15]
Deputy K.L. Moore :
A dual site has a long history and it was considered first I think in 2013, so there would be plenty of medical evidence available in the £100 million that we have already spent on this hospital project getting to this point, but that is not something I have at my disposal at this very moment.
Can the candidate state what would her priority be, would it be financial savings or clinical risk? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well of course we want to deliver a clinically-safe hospital but one that is both affordable and appropriate to our needs. I mentioned in an earlier answer that the size and scale of the current project is not properly justified in its outline business case and therefore we need to seek a solution that can be that.
I would like to ask the Deputy how much priority will be given to education and children's services? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Education is essential because our children are our future. We also have clear problems within our Children's Services Department; I think that that needs particular attention. After announcing the initial slate, I would like to see 2 Ministers leading those 2 departments so that they can give particular focus on delivering the change that is needed, particularly in children's services, and strengthening our offering for those children, particularly children who are in the care of the Minister, but also delivering an education system that can be a world-leading system, something that we can deliver our children a new opportunity, something that meets the needs of the future, which is of course so unknown and uncertain. We need our children to be resilient, we need them to have the skills that enables them to adapt to a very fast-changing world and so, therefore, I would fully commit to a Minister for Education who can deliver just that.
I am sure that you will not be surprised, as a St. Helier Deputy , as a continuation, what priority will be given to St. Helier primary schools?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
There is a clear need to deliver some different and improved environments for the children of St. Helier who are attending those schools. Rouge Bouillon was cited as needing a complete refurbishment or new facility some time ago, back when I was last in Government, and I have been really surprised and saddened that that has not been delivered over the last 4 years. So, we also as an Assembly, at the end of our term, committed to a new school in the centre of St. Helier and I can see a need for others in the surrounding area as well. There are plenty of opportunities there, particularly in the south of St. Helier , looking to the new Member on my left. I know that that is something he feels particularly strongly about.
I would like to ask the candidate about culture, and past Ministers have spoken out about this within Government; I am also aware of low morale in the civil service in some areas. So what practical steps would she take to improve the culture within Government and the civil service in terms of behaviour and relationships of Members and officers?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think culture is set from the top and I think, unfortunately, we have seen some rotting from the top in recent years; it can only be described as such, sadly. So, a new step needs to be taken and we need to take everybody with us on this journey. I can see very clearly from the very connected Island that I spoke about during my speech that we know where the problems lie and we hear what the issues are, and it will be a simple thing to resolve culture. It is sometimes the small things and the small steps that can make the biggest difference but it will take an amount of zero tolerance to bullying and to appreciating what good behaviour looks like and acknowledging that also.
Just to follow up in terms of culture. The Deputy mentioned in her opening speech that we have a diverse Assembly, so in terms of Ministers and officers that she would be working with, how would she ensure with the culture that we are also inclusive as well as diverse, for example, family-friendly working practices or other ideas she might have?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think we have made good strides so far, particularly in this Assembly, in acknowledging the needs of many Members and particularly those who have caring responsibilities. But we can always do better and that will be an excellent way for us to start as an inclusive Assembly, discussing and listening to each other, acknowledging different needs and working together to find the solutions that are most appropriate and fit within our society at this time.
In the last Assembly the candidate for Chief Minister was both president of the Scrutiny Liaison Committee and chair of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel. As such, she will surely have seen and understood how working with a Government that treats Scrutiny with disdain is incredibly difficult. Would the candidate for Chief Minister please advise the Assembly as to how she would manage relationships with Scrutiny?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I really look forward to developing good relationships with Scrutiny Panels because Scrutiny has a depth of knowledge and a fresh perspective that we can all learn from. I talked about that in my speech and I have set it out in my 100-day plan that regular meetings need to be held. We need to take Scrutiny and its advice seriously because they often have the ability to fund reviews and to look at issues that sometimes government officials do not have the opportunity to do, and so there is a lot to be learned. I think when I was last a Minister I enjoyed the relationship I had with the Scrutiny Panel; in fact, I supported some of the amendments that they brought to major pieces of legislation. We built a relationship by meeting regularly, I think that is essential, by having off-the-record discussions but also taking the challenge and embracing it as it should be.
In these challenging times that you have outlined, Jersey needs transformational leadership; I am therefore looking for a truly inclusive leader. Please can the candidate for Chief Minister give an example of work that she has done in the past that exemplifies this type of leadership?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Good question. So, I think we could look back to .. well, let us look back over the Scrutiny journey that we have had over the last 4 years. I think those panels have worked together quite well. We have had challenges and some pretty difficult experiences but we have created WhatsApp groups and meetings that have been offline to check in with each other, particularly during COVID, to make sure that everybody was okay and to make sure that everybody was well-informed. We set up a Teams channel that gave probably far too much information to all Scrutiny Panel members but that information was there and it was really important that we shared it.
I think it was more looking for a more inclusive leader with the wider community of Jersey and therefore maybe add an extra question which is: how will you make sure the disenfranchised voices that you bring out in your vision in our society are listened to?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Thank you for the clarification. I think that is a really, really good point and somebody asked a similar question in St. Ouen at a hustings. We do need to start with a welcome. I think this Assembly being a more diverse place in itself is a big message to our Islanders but we need to welcome people, to show them the way and to create events and opportunities where we can bring people together. I was quite struck by the lack of presence of people from different communities at the recent beacon lighting ceremony. I think that was a really good example of how we need to work on inviting people to join us and developing events and moments where our community really does come together to respect and appreciate its differences.
While the candidate is very keen to increase housing supply, and I think that would be welcomed by all, would she agree with me that the propensity of delivering one-bedroomed apartments is a recipe for disaster for the future?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I would. Families particularly need homes and they need to be able to aspire to space really. One story that has always stayed with me was told to me by a health visitor who could not understand why a young child was not meeting its developmental targets in terms of its movement, its walking. At the age of 2 this child could not walk and had no physical reasons to not be able to walk. But they suddenly realised why this was the case when they visited the family in their own home to find that the home consisted of a room with a double bed and there was only enough room around that bed for the child to pull itself up and crab-like move around the bed. There was no space for it to walk and that simply cannot be right. So, I agree that we need a blended solution to our housing that is focused on families and the communities around them as well.
Would the Deputy be in favour of removing G.S.T. from food and essential items? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Thank you for the question. I know that that is one of the aims of the Reform Party, and this is a point of divergence but one I am sure that we will debate over time. The Assembly, and particularly Members who have been here for longer, will be well aware of the various arguments around this subject and the subject of G.S.T. on food and what is and is not considered food can become a very complex matter. One of the reasons our tax system is described as being low, broad, simple and fair is that it is simple because it is simple to administer and therefore a lower cost to administer, and we need to keep the rules as simple as we can. Therefore, I would propose focusing more on increasing the community costs bonus which was granted to people to assist them with the impact of G.S.T. on food and fuel. That is why I brought a proposition at the end of the last Assembly to increase it and to extend that community cost bonus to a greater number of people. Because we know, because we are hearing from groups and bodies who deal with families and meet with people who are struggling around the Island, that there is an ever-increasing group of people who are struggling in the middle and they need a life vest.
In that case, would the Deputy commit not to raise the G.S.T. in the future? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Now this is a challenge for anybody in this situation, is it not? But it would certainly not be my first port of call if there was a need to raise revenue.
I note that one of the 18 priorities is the establishment of constituency offices. Could the candidate please elaborate on what she means by that and, in particular, whether she envisages that this office or such offices will be permanently manned by someone other than a States Member? If so, will that be a governmental responsibility as far as costs are concerned or would it lie with the Parishes?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
So the good Constable of St. Mary always has an eye for detail and well done for spotting perhaps a weakness in the argument. So, the C.P.A. (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association) have a benchmark report which does identify a need and good practice for constituency offices for Members. I think that that would be a really good thing and particularly in our new districts' makeup.
[10:30]
Particularly when, for example, my own Parishes, St. Mary , St. Ouen and St. Peter , would like to see some representation of their Deputies and a place where they can meet their Deputies and where their Deputies can be found working within the community so that they are better connected to it. I have made enquiries at St. Mary 's Parish Hall to see whether there is a room available for such a constituency office for our district. We have also reached out to ArtHouse Jersey to see whether there might be room at the Barracks, which is closer to the border with St. Ouen of course, but our commitment, and I made this at the hustings, was to have a constituency office preferably in St. Mary initially. In answer to the point about staffing, I think it would be preferable if they could be staffed, but that is a matter for conversation with the Greffe because of course budget would have to be found and the finances to go with that. But I certainly think it would assist in helping Deputies with their workload if there was that central point and there was some support to assist them in their work.
Bearing in mind we have a current housing crisis, what will the candidate do to prevent the large number of individuals and companies from buying a significant amount of properties on the Island with money from both in and out of the Island?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think the last Assembly set some lines for overseas investors buying property in the Island and that would stay in place. Locally we have seen a comment in the local press that there are particular companies wishing to invest in properties, and I think that that is going to be one of the first jobs for a Minister for Housing to consider, how we balance that and what rules are set. I think at this particular time we perhaps do need to be slightly more interventionist in our markets to ensure that there is adequate protection for tenants in particular.
Would the candidate consider looking at the rules in relation to 2(1)(e)s? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Four or 5 years ago when the 2(1)(e) tax rate was raised it was made very clear at the time that there would be a period and it would be revisited, and I think that time is coming quite quickly. I also think that we could be more discerning at this particular time because, going back to housing being a priority, there is a difference in the amount of space that some individuals will take up and space is a premium. So, when we need to focus on delivering accommodation for temporary workers and people who are going to care for our sick and teach our kids, then some difficult decisions have to be made. We have a great package that we offer here as an Island: we offer safety, we offer language, an excellent geographical position and a very competitive tax rate, and so we should be proud of that offering and we can make that more competitive.
How will the Deputy support our traditional industries, farming, fishing and tourism, and increase productivity generally?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
So, when I answered Deputy Kovacs ' question about Ministerial slates, I omitted the economic development brief which I would hope would go to Deputy Morel . He has shown considerable passion and interest in agriculture and has increased the budget for it. I am aware that there is a new rural strategy and would look forward to that being delivered hopefully by him. In terms of productivity, this has been a source of focus in the last Government and unfortunately it needs renewed vigour; you are absolutely correct. We will be fortunate as interest rates rise that should benefit our overall figures but what we need to really focus on is the human aspect of our productivity and boosting business. So, we can look to small businesses, ensuring that there are incentives for start-ups, for example, and easing some of the regulations that bind them so that we can generate a greater activity and give people confidence to further their entrepreneurial spirit.
What will the Deputy do to encourage high revenue, low staff, new industry?
By continuing the good message that Jersey is an excellent jurisdiction within which to do business. We have a great package on offer and this is an open marketplace so we will see businesses hopefully take an interest and come here because it is the place that they will wish to be.
The Deputy mentioned collaboration in her speech and working with Guernsey. Could the Deputy expand on this point and tell us how she will succeed where others have failed?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I think it is about attitude. I look around this Assembly and see a very different attitude. The people have had their say about attitudes of the past and I think we are here to set a new tone. We have a very different Assembly and one that will collaborate naturally I am sure, but we can also of course encourage that. That means getting together, talking when we do not necessarily have to but meeting because we want to and having opportunities to discuss issues of the day and not just the business of the day.
Will the Deputy commit to putting someone from the new Council of Ministers with overall responsibility for relationships with Guernsey?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well, that is an intriguing question. I would imagine that the External Relations brief would cover that but I would certainly commit to considering that.
Following on from the question about community, how much focus will the Deputy give to the work of the Island identity project which suggested welcome packs for newcomers and provided a teaching resource about the Island, an online teaching resource, and enhancing our international profile to our global community?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
In honesty, I thought that that work was already underway because I am well aware of the Deputy 's project and it has been completed, so I would hope that it was already going. I would certainly support it. A welcome pack would be an excellent way to define what is on offer in the Island and to offer that welcome that I talked about in a previous answer.
These were recommendations in the report. The report looks to the new States Assembly to carry the recommendations forward, so I wonder if the Deputy will be behind various departments carrying the initiatives forward.
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I have an inkling that the Deputy might wish to take that work forward herself, and it is something that would perhaps be a good thing.
When it comes to fishing, we share the vast majority of our waters with our good neighbours from Normandy and Brittany. But while the French fleet enjoy huge grants and subsidies from their Government and easy, quick access for their produce to market, Jersey fishermen enjoy neither of those. Could Deputy Moore explain how she might address that huge imbalance?
Well, that has always been one of the issues in our traditional industries, has it not, farmers too have complained of similar? I am aware that in the past we have offered packages to help at particular times. It was just yesterday I was talking to a person who reminded me that 25 per cent of our fishing fleet, the boats are for sale at the moment, so we do need to address this if we wish to keep Jersey fishing, although I have not a specific commitment to do so. It should perhaps be added to our first 100 days.
Will the Deputy explain how she plans to restore public trust in Government and to connect with Islanders in a meaningful way?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I have talked about delivery today and I think that in terms of restoring trust in the public we need to do as we say. We need to also communicate, so we will be tested on our delivery, we will be charged with delivering on the first 100 days, and that will be a matter for the public to take their own views at the end of it. But we will commit to communicating differently, to engaging with the public using the social media channels that we have, and building that audience and that connection with people in every way we can.
Will the Deputy commit to an open and transparent Government, which publishes reports and minutes in a timely way and as a matter of course, assuming publication unless there is a compelling reason otherwise and where there is that reason to communicate that reason, please?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well, that was one of the tense moments towards the end of the last Government when we did encourage a vote and the Council of Ministers is now bound to publishing its minutes as a result of the vote in that Assembly, and I think that is a big first step. It will be a good thing, in my view, and we will continue to do that.
The candidate in her opening remarks spoke quite rightly of the importance of improving relations with France. I wonder whether she might indicate whether she would be sympathetic to the idea of creating one or more bilingual primary schools in Jersey, a project approved by a previous Council of Ministers but sadly not taken forward and, secondly, the establishment of a small Paris office for the Government similar to the one that we have created in London?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
We perhaps need to dust down that bilingual school proposition and find out what happened to it, so I will endeavour to do so. I believe that language is a very important part of learning and I supported the commitment to teaching Jèrriais and I also support the essence of I have forgotten the word, I do apologise, it will come back to me, of language bringing our community together. In terms of a Paris office, I do believe we have an office in Caen at the moment and so I think perhaps the Deputy might need to persuade me as to why it would need to move its geographical location.
In the candidate's first 100 days she seeks to create a Cabinet Office to co-ordinate the work of Government and strengthen collective decision-making. Would this also have the by-product of improving relations and communications with the media and, by default, the public of Jersey? Thank you for the question. I certainly hope that the Cabinet Office will be one of the things that sets a new tone because politicians need to be in a position where they are giving the direction. I feel that the Cabinet Office will be the first step on our way to doing that.
[10:45]
It will encompass the policy-driving parts of Government which is so essential. We could perhaps, for want of a better phrase, take back control and I really look forward to seeing that happen. In terms of engagement, that will also come under that department and I look forward to - and I know that the media are also looking forward to - Ministers who answer their phones and will be able and competent to give their own sound bites and comments without requiring a spokesperson on all occasions.
Would there be any additional staffing or associated costs with the establishment of such an office? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Of the Cabinet Office very little because there is already a distinct resource in place. It is a question of repurposing it and rebranding it, which should be a simple thing to do. In terms of the engagement side, we are all quite aware I think of the size of our Communications Unit and so I think that they are also equally well-resourced.
A cause for stress both financial and emotional for many Islanders comes from the way they interact with our government departments. Some feel they are being punished often for mistakes made by the Government. Does the candidate think that the current appeals processes treat our Islanders with dignity and respect and would she support a review of such appeals processes to make sure they are open, fully published and compassionate?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
So much like Reform, I have committed to introducing a public sector ombudsperson because I think it is the right thing to do. We have as an Assembly agreed to do so already and for matters unknown to me that has not been delivered. Also, during the course of the last Assembly, Scrutiny looked at communications from Government and made several recommendations about improving the style of language in their communications, and I think that really needs to be delivered because we do often see unnecessary distress caused by some of the letters that are sent.
One way of improving that connectivity is for Islanders to be able to communicate in person with a Government. Would the candidate support re-opening a form of drop-in centre for multiple departments?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well, we had one of those, the one front door, but of course it has been firmly closed, and I would certainly seek to reopen that door as soon as we possibly can.
The Deputy mentioned supply as an issue for the housing market. There have been a number of reports suggesting there are large swathes of properties which are left empty on this Island, some for very good reasons, some for not. What action and incentives would the Deputy take to ensure that these unjustifiably empty properties are returned to our market as soon as possible?
Well, the number is always a matter for debate but I absolutely accept the essence of your question. There are properties that could be transformed into homes and we need to do some work on that. I do not have the exact answer but I would like to see people incentivised to bringing those properties for use by people who need homes.
Would that incentive include any form of empty property tax or grants from Government to return them back to a liveable standard?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
I do not consider that those are the first steps on the path to putting those properties into good use.
The candidate mentions in her 100-day plan the establishment of an older person's living forum. Would the candidate please confirm that this is intended to be a permanent body to seek the views of the older members of our society given the forecast for an ever-increasing ageing population and that it is not simply a short-term measure?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well, I guess that will be in the delivery of it and whether people find it is the right way to access and to communicate the issues. So, it would perhaps be wise to set a target of a year in terms of assessing its practicality and whether people find it is useful.
Does the candidate propose to do anything about the OneGov structure that was introduced? Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well, I think we would all like to say goodbye to the name but there has been a lot of uncertainty within the public sector, and that has caused some considerable strife. I would not want to exacerbate those problems and I think in fact we can focus on just realigning the accountability structure and ensuring that people are valued within the service and have clarity about their roles and their futures.
What concrete steps will the candidate take to address the issue of recruitment and retention of staff for the hospital and wider health provisions?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Thank you, it is a very good question. I think that is a 2-pronged answer. Firstly, it is to resolve the cultural issues that clearly are within that service but, secondly, it comes back to housing. We need to be able to offer our healthcare workers suitable housing when they arrive in the Island; housing that is affordable. I am very aware that that is one of the critical factors that at the moment are causing people to leave and we need to be retaining them. So, the delivery of those homes will be an important step.
It is a matter of not only housing but it is a matter for terms and conditions. Has the time come for a Jersey bonus to attract people to come to this Island which they seem reluctant to do at the moment? That would be a matter for discussion with the operational team, I would imagine. I am aware that they have just completed their pay negotiations and so I would wait to be informed as to what occurred in those pay negotiations.
The Deputy has spoken a lot of consensus, how will the Deputy deal with disagreement within the Council of Ministers?
Deputy K.L. Moore :
Well it depends on the level of disagreement but diffusion by humour is sometimes the first step and then listening of course. I talked a lot about listening, I appreciate. We can only find an agreement when we understand the different perspectives that people are coming from.
The Bailiff :
Thank you very much indeed. [Approbation] Very well, I will ask Deputy Moore to leave the Chamber and ask that Deputy Mézec be brought back. Very well, I just repeat, Deputy Mézec will have 10 minutes to deliver his speech, there will then follow a period of questions of up to one hour. Members asking questions will be allowed one supplemental question to their initial question before we move on to the next formal question.
Can I start by just taking this, my first opportunity, to congratulate all Members on their recent elections and, in particular, to welcome the new Members who I am looking forward to working with over the next 4 years. The fact that this new Assembly is by a long shot the most diverse and representative we have ever had is something which should give us all a sense of hope and optimism as we start this term of office. I am asking Members to vote for me to be the next Chief Minister of Jersey but in reality this vote is about much more than just which personality is at the head of our Government. It is about what kind of future we want for our Island. I am standing and asking the Assembly to make history by voting to give Jersey its first social democratic Government and to get behind the clear and comprehensive vision for a new deal for Jersey which was set out in the Reform Jersey manifesto and Housing Crisis Action Plan. In doing so, we will be setting up a Government which is ready to put together a Common Strategic Policy and a Government Plan to take Jersey forward and ensure that our best days remain ahead of us. That Government will be one which is guided by principles of social and economic justice and will make the most of the talents and expertise across this Assembly. We have had in the last few years our greatest public health crisis in a century and our second economic crisis in just over a decade. This moment now at the start of this term will be fundamental in establishing what kind of post-pandemic change we will deliver. Do we go back to a slightly nicer version of "business as usual" or do we honour the hard work and sacrifices made by so many during the pandemic by taking this opportunity to fundamentally realign how Jersey works to create a fairer society, a more resilient economy and public service and a Government which truly works for the people? In making that choice we must learn from our history. The last time Jersey faced a big crisis after the 2008 financial crash, successive Governments responded with dogmatic austerity which failed even on its own terms. This approach gave us a lost decade in which the economic standard of living for Islanders was frozen. Economic growth in that time was measly but when we did have it it was fuelled, not by improvements and productivity, but by unsustainable population growth. If the next Government chooses to go back to that approach we should expect the exact same outcomes, so this candidate says that we cannot go back to that. I make it absolutely clear that a vote for me as Chief Minister is a vote to end the age of austerity. Instead we need a new deal and the new deal has historic precedence too. A new deal is an approach which seeks immobilisation of efforts to overcome a crisis in such a way which tackles the other structural
problems that society was facing before that crisis too. The new deal of President Franklin Roosevelt which took the United States out of the Great Depression was based on the 3 Rs: relief, recovery and reform. For Jersey's new deal we propose: equality, sustainability and accountability. If I am elected Chief Minister and can bring together a Council of Ministers made up of Members from across the Assembly who want to see an Island built on social and economic justice, we will produce a Common Strategic Policy based on these 3 key priorities. Firstly, to create a more equal society, we must reverse the trends of growing inequality which we have suffered for so long otherwise Jersey risks facing a terminal decline.
[11:00]
In the last few years we have seen more and more people losing hope that they have a better future ahead of them in Jersey. Many young people are leaving the Island in search of a better life elsewhere, not because they do not love Jersey but because with their skills and work ethic they believe that other places offer them greater opportunities. On this basis, businesses and public services are struggling to retain people with the skills that they need because they simply cannot afford the cost of living in these roles. This cannot go on for ever. At some point something has got to give and the next Government must deliver a more equal society. The second priority will be to prepare Jersey for the challenges of the future. We must understand that Jersey's future prosperity is not inevitable. While we are an affluent society now that is not guaranteed for ever. If we fail to move with the times and ensure that our economy and public services are resilient and adaptable as we face the challenges of the future, our complacency could cost us. How we respond to technological advances, climate change and international politics will determine what kind of Island society future generations will be able to enjoy here. But while we could see these things as threats, I believe we must instead see them as opportunities. If we embrace technology and the digital economy, we can create jobs, we can innovate and we can deliver services with better value for money. If we take action to reach our targets on reducing carbon emissions, we can make Jersey a more pleasant and in fact more affordable place to live. The final priority will be to restore Government accountability and democracy. It is a key part of the new deal approach that when running the Government we resist pressure from vested interests and instead put the people at the centre of our democracy. Those who take power in Government should use it to empower the communities they represent. Many changes have occurred in the structure of our Government in recent years, taking power away from elected Ministers, and concentrating it in the hands of people who are not really accountable. This leads to bad decisions which are out of touch with what the public wants and public money being routinely wasted rather than going directly on front line services. So we must fix how our Government works so that we can have any confidence we can govern effectively for the people we represent. Under each of those headline priorities there will be much work to be done. I am confident that there are Members from across the Assembly who will have a meaningful contribution to make in Government and other roles too, and I will certainly be open and inclusive. I have not been approaching other Members to offer positions or to do trade-offs on policy. I have been transparent about what my candidacy stands for and provided more policy detail than a candidate for Chief Minister has ever done before. It is important that we are clear from the outset on what the new Government intends to do because there is no time to waste. Today's front-page news story about the increasing number of Islanders who are struggling to afford the essentials highlights the urgency there is for the new Government to get to grips with these issues. Jersey's Government has a history of responding to every tricky political subject by outsourcing decision-making to some form of consultation, review or deliberation and this is an indulgence that cannot be afforded now. But the good news is there is a package of policies which are good to go, policies which are tangible, deliverable and affordable. If I am elected Chief Minister and can form a Council of Ministers we can crack on with them. So, I commit to these key policies, no ifs, no buts. We will abolish poverty pay in Jersey by raising the minimum wage to the living wage. We will cast aside vested interests and take immediate action to resolve the housing crisis with a clear plan that
goes beyond simply building more homes, crossing our fingers and hoping for the best. We will treat access to healthcare as a basic human right and expand the Health Access Scheme to those who need it most, those with long-term illnesses, and work towards expanding it to everyone. We will remove G.S.T. from where it should never have been in the first place; on food and essentials. We will ensure no young children in Jersey schools struggle to learn because they are hungry by expanding the school meals programme to all state primary schools. We will end the grotesque inequality there is in our tax system by removing the tax privileges which exist for the super wealthy and providing a modest break for the squeezed middle. We will deliver for Jersey the bus service it deserves and one which is accessible, affordable and environmentally-friendly to help achieve our carbon neutrality ambitions. We will future-proof our housing stock by providing a programme to convert homes to energy-efficient heating and this is fundamental to having a just transition. Lastly, we will bring accountability back to Government by establishing the public services ombudsman which the previous Government promised and failed to deliver. That is what the new deal could mean for Jersey and it is on that basis that I stand as a candidate for Chief Minister. I ask Members in this Assembly to support me in the vote today and then help me to form an effective team which can deliver the change that Jersey needs. Thank you. [Approbation]
Would the candidate state whether he thinks that P.1/2018 which was brought by now Deputy Gorst , perhaps the future Minister for Treasury and Resources, whether he supported that and whether he thinks it was a good idea for Jersey or whether he thinks that what was contained in that needs to be undone?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I was one of a small number of Members who voted against P.1 because we were worried at the time that it would concentrate too much power in the hands of people who were unelected. I am sorry to say that we turned out to be right on that. I think it was a mistake to have implemented P.1, even though some of the intentions behind it were good but in the last 4 years we have surely learnt the lessons that the promises which were made to deliver a more effective and efficient public service were not enabled by P.1. So, I would certainly look to have it rescinded and have something replace it which is fit for purpose.
There has been talk about a Cabinet Office being formed by a Government, the next Government in Jersey, which sounds to me very English, sounds to me very Westminster and very Charlie Parker- speak. Could the current candidate state whether he thinks that a Cabinet Office is what the public of Jersey voted for in this election and how he would see a new approach from his Government in terms of accountability and transparency?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
The Cabinet Office might sound English but you could also say it sounds Manx because it is what they have in the Isle of Man system. I would not be one to want to automatically look at the U.K. (United Kingdom) style of government and replicate that in Jersey. There are many parts of their government system that simply do not work here. But what I can say from my experience as a Minister, that the current breakdown between having a Ministerial Support Unit and a Policy Department does not work. It leaves a large part, a very influential part, of Government unaccountable to Ministers and that does not work. So my vision for what a Cabinet Office could look like in a Jersey context is one that brings those 2 areas of government together so that Ministers are empowered to deliver on their mandates, their policies and to not leave room, as currently exists under the current system, for policy officers to bounce off between different Ministers and stop work going ahead and finding reasons why things cannot be done rather than why things can be done.
The candidate mentioned in his speech the unsustainable population growth of previous years. Will the Deputy commit to implementing a population policy within this term of office and how would the Deputy 's policy differ from P.116 Common Population Policy brought by the last Council of Ministers?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Well, I would hope that its main difference was that it would be a population policy in reality and not simply one in name, which is what that policy was. In fact, you could sum up that policy in "an aspiration for more data and we will see where we go", which is not good enough. Our position is that the Ponzi scheme approach adopted by successive Governments has failed Jersey. It did not work even by its own terms and has been part of the contribution for some of the strains there have been on our public services and the demand there has been for housing, which is causing problems for many people. So, I think we need to move away from the Ponzi scheme approach and instead have a stable population approach. That is not easy to do because we also want to make sure that our vital public services and emerging areas of our economy are not short-staffed and are able to benefit from the skills of people that we will need in those areas. So whatever population policy we come up with has also got to have a very good emphasis on education and training.
The Bailiff :
Could I ask Members who wish to ask questions when they put their light on, please do not turn your light off until I have looked at you and nodded because I think I might have missed one or 2 who have indicated a desire to speak.
I would ask the same question. Could I ask the Deputy , there has been a lot of talk of consensus and working across the Assembly, how would the Deputy deal with disagreement in a Council of Ministers?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I would hope that Deputy Ward would have experience of how I deal with disagreements as we have worked very closely together in the last 4 years. It has been Deputy Ward who has helped teach me that it is not about how you agree, it is about how you disagree and overcome that and maintain your commitment to your common purpose. That is the mandate that I am trying to seek in running for Chief Minister now in that I am being absolutely clear that the Government that I would want to lead would be a social democratic Government. It would be one that believes in equality, sustainability and accountability, and I would hope that Ministers who would join that Council of Ministers - not just from Reform Jersey but from across the Assembly - would be Members who sign up to those values. If you sign up to shared values the rest, trust me, becomes a lot easier. I know that because I served in a Council of Ministers that frankly was too divided and not united at all, often on many of the policies which we sought to bring forward, which leads to a huge amount of waste of time and money both in Government and in the Assembly.
The Deputy mentioned his role in the previous Council of Ministers; can I ask him what mistakes he made during that time?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I think certainly at the start of that I was personally not clear enough in the vision for what I wanted to achieve in housing and I was I think too openminded in who we would work with to come up with those policies. What happened is without having concrete agreement at the start of that Government that we would take action on particular things, is that when things reached the floor of the States Assembly that is when things would fall apart. Particular projects that we led on, like the landlord licensing - a subject I know Deputy Ward is very familiar with - we spent months and months working on this only to then discover that the Government did not support it and we had wasted a huge amount of time and money. So, the main lesson I have learned is that in terms of the detail of the policies you want to achieve you have to be much clearer about that at the start. But, as I said, that becomes easier when you are signing up to shared values.
The Deputy said in his speech that when people are in power they should use it to empower the communities they represent. Please could you provide some examples of how you would do that?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Absolutely. For a start there has been mention about how we reform the make up on the Government side - so Ministerial Support Unit and Policy Department - to make sure that the Government can deliver what it is elected to do, because that is the whole point of having a Government. But I think we need to take things even further down to grassroots in Jersey. We have a Parish system, which is something that we are all very proud of, and I think we should be using it more often to deliver for the people that we represent. I think that when you make decisions at a local level they are more likely to be in touch with what people want and how they feel about what is happening on their doorstep. In the previous term of office I worked with a subcommittee of the Comité des Connétable to come up with proposals for how we can make Parish Assemblies more accessible. I want to pursue that. Also, I have worked closely with the Constable of St. Helier about how we can introduce a town council so that local decisions can be made in town to be more responsive to the needs of residents and businesses. Those are 2 examples of things I would be very keen to pursue.
Continuing the theme; in the manifesto the candidate talks about how marvellous the Parish system is but goes on to say that the Constables should no longer automatically serve in the States Assembly. Is there a way of including the Constables in the States given their widely differing mandates? Would the candidate put the matter to a referendum given the result the last time around?
[11:15]
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
On that last point, it is not something that we have committed to and it is not something that I would want to pursue. What we have said in the manifesto is that the principle of equal votes is sacrosanct and it is not some foreign concept, it is something that ought to be a staple part of Jersey's democratic culture and how we do things here that everybody, no matter where you live in the Island, should have an equal vote in the makeup of this Assembly. That cannot be done when you have such unevenly-sized constituencies; but that has to be balanced with the fact that we have a long tradition of the Parish system in the Island that we should not let disappear. We should not let that happen, not just because there are some very good things in how that works but frankly it helps us provide very good value for money in the delivery of some services that other jurisdictions do not get to benefit from. So, what I would want to see is some sort of wider conversation about where the Parish system sits in our Island society today, how it can be enhanced. A lot of the laws that it operates on are very old. It is worth looking at some of those again just to make sure that they are still relevant and that they can be modernised when necessary, but I would want to have that conversation in an open and inclusive way so that those who will not like the idea of changing our electoral system would feel at least comfortable that the things they would be worried about being the consequences of that would certainly be mitigated against.
Just following up really; I agree that voter equity is sacrosanct. Is it not the case that there are only 2 possible outcomes, one that if the Constables remain their voting power will be commensurate with the number of people who voted for them, or that the Constables would sit in an upper house? Would the candidate favour either of those 2 solutions?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I do not like the first of those solutions. It seems to be making a straight line crooked. I do not think that we should try to come up with these weird solutions to problems which ought to be much simpler than that. The idea of having the Constables sit in an upper chamber has some merits. There is a way that the Constables could have some really important input into Island-wide affairs that way and there could also be something slightly similar to what they have in the Isle of Man, which is where their chambers sit together for certain important events and certain ceremonial things as well, and that could be a way of maintaining that. I will not make that commitment though unless a piece of work is done to establish how that would work, whether there is public support for it and how you would risk ending up in a situation where somebody who wanted to stand for Constable and Deputy might not be able to if they were automatically in an upper house and then this Chamber would potentially lose their talent and expertise.
I would like to ask the candidate the same question. How much priority would be given to education and children's services?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
As a former Minister for Children that is a subject that is very dear to my heart. In fact we celebrated Children's Day on Sunday, the first time we were able to do so out in public because of the pandemic, and I was very pleased to be able to spend some time talking to young people at one of the Children's Day events who had been through our care system and had a lot to say about how things need to be improved. Putting children first was a pledge that I helped establish and I maintain my personal commitment to that to this day. A lot of the problems that we face in staffing some of these services - getting the right people in there to do the job and do it effectively and not serve for a few months and then disappear somewhere else, and all of the problems with continuity and connections that creates for the young people who engage with those services - a lot of those things come back down to cost of living; the fact that we do often get talented people working in these services and they just do not last very long because they get here and struggle to maintain a quality of life that they would be able to in other jurisdictions. These issues are interlinked and we absolutely need to deal with cost of living if we are to make sure that we have the right people in those services.
What is the candidate's vision about primary schools in St. Helier ? Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
We need some more of them; that is the short answer. As a St. Helier resident and now a St. Helier Deputy , I know that there are constituents of mine who really have their quality of life suffer because their children do not have access to a school which is nearby. I know of one example of somebody who applied for their daughter to go to the local primary school nearby, a short walk away so she could drop her daughter at school and then walk to work, who could not get a place there because it is full so she has to spend 45 minutes in the car every morning driving her past 3 schools to get her up the hill to the school that her daughter does go to. That school is a great school but we ought to have first class facilities for young people in St. Helier that is nearby and provide all the investment that we need in terms of public realm improvements, so the walking pathways are safe and all the rest of it. I staunchly believe we need more primary school spaces in Jersey and if that means a new primary school entirely then that ought to be a priority.
I want to ask the candidate about culture in terms of any bullying culture that might be present, and low morale within civil service, Government and the Assembly. What practical steps would he plan to take to improve that culture in terms of behaviour and relationships?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
There is no place for bullying in our society whatsoever, be that among politicians or people who work on behalf of the politicians, and we should make that absolutely clear. I am very pleased that I have a good relationship with Jersey's trade unions and I know that they get a lot of feedback on behalf of their members, some of whom will have to go to them for help and advice and sometimes even support through legal action when they run up against some of the cultural problems that there are. I am sorry to say that I occasionally hear feedback about this getting worse in certain departments over recent years. There can be no place for that. In our manifesto we have spoken about what needs to be looked at by the Government as an employer to make sure that it has got more appropriate processes inside so people feel that they have got the confidence to be able to complain or to perhaps deal with things in other ways. I am not convinced that the States Employment Board as it currently stands is perfect for that, and we ought to look at something more like an independent public sector commission that would be able to take management of some of those H.R. (human resources) issues and provide much better practice than we currently have.
Could the candidate elaborate in terms of culture within a Council of Ministers, Government and the wider Assembly how he would ensure that that was inclusive and family friendly?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Absolutely, and I think - and I am frankly not being radical in saying this - but when we have just had an election result which has delivered the Island the most representative Assembly that we have ever had, I think the makeup of the Council of Ministers ought to reflect that as well. As I said, that is not radical and I would certainly aim, if elected as Chief Minister, to speak to Members from across the Assembly and make sure that we get people with talent and expertise in those roles, but that they reflect what the public looks like as well.
Will the candidate confirm commitment to improving mental health services, including provision of more fully qualified counsellors in schools?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I thank the Deputy for that question. That is something that is extremely important, and again it goes back to an answer I provided to Deputy Gardiner before, that some of these important mental health roles we have really struggled with recruitment. Just a few months ago myself and other members of the Health and Social Security Scrutiny Panel went on a visit around our mental health services and that was feedback we were constantly getting, that these services occasionally found brilliant people to work in these roles who would begin to develop really positive relationships with their patients, and particularly young people that they had to work with, but they did not last very long. Then that young person has to start that journey all over again with somebody new, building up trust and having to potentially explore their trauma all over again. That is not a positive thing. I believe that if we can tackle some of these cost-of-living issues that will have a knock-on effect in recruitment in some of these roles. But also we need to go back to that Scrutiny review that I served on with some other Members of this Assembly and make sure that seeing through those recommendations are included in the next Government Plan.
How would the Deputy increase education funding in real terms and how would he address the funding inequality in our schools?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Well, we had the school funding review, which was published I think shortly after I stopped being an Assistant Minister for Education, but I got to see some of the work up front when that was being put together and it certainly is the case that we do not fund our schools in an equitable way. When you look at the breakdown that there is within schools where certain schools have greater need when it comes to special educational needs or that kind of thing, the funding is not distributed effectively and there is some real inefficiency in the system as well, particularly at older ages. So that school funding review has got to be looked at and the Government has got to make up its mind whether it wants to treat education as a priority, bearing in mind that every penny we spend in education is investing in Jersey's future.
My question relates to health and well-being. In the candidate's manifesto in relation to the Jersey Care Model he highlights that greater pressure will be put on charities without adequate support provided to them. What sort of support does the candidate believe that charities need right now?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Well, long-term certainty for a start. There is not a huge amount of that at the moment because things are still up in the air with the implementation of the Jersey Care Model. But if you are going to be commissioning a body in the third sector to deliver health services they need long-term security to know that they are going to get the funding that they need to do it so that they can recruit people knowing what length contracts they are going to need or what have you, and also know how much training they are able to invest in those staff to be able to do those roles. So, I am somebody who is of the view that as much of our health services as possible ought to be done in-house because I just think that is a better way of doing it. But where we are able to and need to use third sector bodies to deliver those services that have to be brought in, and whatever agreement or contracts we draw up with them have got to be absolutely robust and with the adequate funding they need to deliver those services. It should never be seen as a cost-cutting exercise to simply outsource something because when it comes to healthcare that is shown to be a false economy.
I thank the candidate for his answer. How could charities be encouraged to work better together, and does that require political oversight?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I think if charities are being commissioned by Government to deliver services then there does have to be some degree of political oversight in that to make sure that people who need healthcare support in whatever form are getting it, that they are being directed properly and that they can get it in a timely way, and that if situations change the Government can be responsive to that as well. I understand that some of the C.E.O.s (chief executive officer) of some of the healthcare charities are having greater discussions now than they were having previously and hopefully that is a good sign that some better co-ordination is on its way. But Government cannot just expect them to do that entirely by themselves and leave them to it; we have got to be working with them to support them.
In these challenging times that you have outlined Jersey needs transformational leadership. I am, therefore, looking for a truly inclusive leader. Please can the Deputy give an example of work that he has done in the past that exemplifies this type of leadership.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I say in my statement that I submitted for this Chief Minister election that I have demonstrated right from the very start of my political career my unshakeable commitment to teamwork. I do not believe that when you go things alone that you are as effective and I think you have to work with people. I hope that my party colleagues would say that I am a democrat and that we have open discussions and, when we are committed to the same values and going in the same direction, that I agree with working together and I will go with a majority view and aim to be as constructive as possible. I have attempted to do that in other ventures as well which are sometimes more challenging. I hope that those who did serve with me in Government in the previous term of office - even those with very different political views to me - will hopefully acknowledge that I always tried to be courteous and would listen to other Members when they had things they had to say and was always forthright in trying to be open in as early a stage as possible about how I felt on something so that we were not going behind each other's backs or anything like that.
[11:30]
Of course, outside of the Assembly I have also played an active role in other organisations like, for example, the Living Wage Foundation where there has been quite a broad representation on there, and I am very proud of the work we have achieved there.
I am looking for an inclusive leader who is an inclusive leader for all in Jersey, so how will you make sure the disenfranchised voices in our society are listened to?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
That is a very good question. I mentioned earlier about the conversation that I had with some young people on Children's Day, and something I have been mulling over in my own head for a while, it is about what more we can do to have young people have a more direct say in Government and in politics. Some great work is going on with the Youth Parliament but I think that the Chief Minister should directly reach out to young people, have them regularly come in and talk about how they feel and what kind of things they want to see from Government, rather than have kind of tick-box exercises and have a sheet of paper put on the desk after some random consultation. But not just young people as well; there are other groups in our society. The L.G.B.T.Q. (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer) community, for example, which has faced persecution and prejudice for a very long time in our history but much progress has been made in recent years. Groups that represent those minority groups I would want to be brought in, in as accessible a way as possible to Government, so that we can avoid some of the situations that we have had in the last Assembly where there were unfortunately some moments where decisions were made that just did not take into account the facts that we are a diverse community and that people's different cultures have an impact. I am thinking, for example, of the Christmas incident through lockdown which was so avoidable if they had just been a bit more inclusive.
We have heard the candidate quite rightly talk about the importance of leadership and teamwork on a number of occasions throughout this. While thinking about the culture of leadership that the candidate would like to bring to the role of Chief Minister, would he explain to the Assembly whether he believes the buck stops with the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers; whether when things go wrong, when policies are failed to be delivered it is the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers that take responsibility for that.
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Yes, I think so, and I think the difficulty with that is that because of the unaccountability that has been built into our system recently where in many areas of Government there is not a direct line up to somebody who is elected at the top, that has been harder. We need to re-establish those lines of accountability so that anybody working in the public service knows that there is a line straight from them to an elected Minister, and from that elected Minister there is a line to the Chief Minister, and from that Chief Minister there is a line to this Assembly. We need to re-establish that and that is a fundamental part of the new deal, making sure that Government actually works with accountability.
I am pleased to hear the candidate's commitment to accountability, but could he explain how he reconciles this commitment to accountability with the fact that in his resignation letter when he resigned as Minister for Housing and Children he quite clearly blamed officers for his failure to deliver policy. He talked about officers obstructing him in his ability to deliver policy. That does not to me sound like someone who accepted Ministerial responsibility. How can he reconcile that with his previous statement?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Well, it is completely reconcilable with what I have just said. The Deputy will have just heard me give an answer where I explained that in the current government system there are officers whose job is to deliver on government policy who right now are not accountable to people in Government. That is a structural problem. At least I can say I voted against P.1 which enabled many of those reforms to happen, but I commit that this next Government must re-establish those lines of accountability so that you cannot have a situation where a Minister goes into a room with officers and says: "I want to achieve X, Y and Z" and then in the weeks and months following that finds that minutes do not reflect discussions that were had in that, finds that officers have gone to speak to another Minister to say: "Well actually I think this is the way we should go rather than what this Minister has said." That can happen under our current system and if I am the Chief Minister I will make sure that system goes in the bin and we get one where there are proper lines of accountability.
Given the Island's ambition to achieve carbon neutrality as soon as possible, would the Deputy agree that the appointment of a Minister with responsibility for energy is of prime importance, together with an associated Scrutiny Panel?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Yes, I do, and can I just say for the avoidance of any doubt, because I did notice this creeping in, in the general election campaign recently, that my position and the position of Reform Jersey is that we should not retreat one inch from our commitments on carbon neutrality. We owe it to future generations that we see this agenda through, and frankly we ought to be extremely enthusiastic about it because of the opportunities that it will provide us to improve our environment, our quality of life and affordability. But making sure that Government is in as strong a position as possible to meet those targets means that those portfolios have got to be absolutely clear. I am not in favour of establishing random Ministries for everything, but what I am in favour of doing is making sure that Government Ministers who are appointed, it is absolutely clear in their portfolios what they are responsible for and in terms of energy that must be included - we would have to have a discussion on this - perhaps as part of the infrastructure portfolio, perhaps as part of the environment portfolio as well. Because energy inefficiency in our homes is the second biggest contributor to our carbon emissions and if we do not get that right then we are setting ourselves up for failure in meeting our ambitions on carbon neutrality.
Would the Deputy agree that the cost consequences of achieving carbon neutrality by 2030 are such that it is unlikely to be achieved?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
No, I will not accept that and the reason I will not accept that is because I am of the view that climate change is an existential crisis for humanity and, frankly, we cannot have that kind of thinking. It is going to be difficult. Perhaps we will not always meet every target but we have to try, and if we accept now that a longer timeline will suffice, well, what if every country does that? What if every jurisdiction out there says: "It is too difficult so we are not going to try as hard"? That would be a betrayal of future generations, in my view, and I want the next Government of Jersey to remain committed 100 per cent to that agenda. If we make mistakes along the way, so be it, but we have to absolutely try our best.
Could the candidate say what he sees as the proper relationship between tax and the delivery of public services?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I think for a long time in Jersey we have been far too wedded on, frankly, ancient types of taxation that has limited Government's aspirations in what kind of services we deliver for the public. I think it is the job of the Government, on the basis of its electoral mandate, to determine what kind of society we want to be. If we want to be a society that provides good quality public services, that invests in the things that help provide opportunities for people, that money has got to come from somewhere. That has got to come ultimately from taxation, and I want to make sure that we have a tax system which is progressive and fair. Jersey's taxation system right now is not progressive and it is not fair, and that is one of the reasons why in certain areas of public service provision we lag behind other places. The most obvious one I can think of is the fact we have to pay to see a doctor when we are sick. That is something I think is a legacy of an inappropriate view of the relationship between tax and spend up until now.
My question to the candidate revolves around improved public engagement. Would he agree with me a concern that I have that I understand that the period of public consultation on the question of assisted dying is being reduced during this summer from the customary 8 weeks to 5 weeks; and is that really getting a fair view from the public, particularly at a time when most of them are probably going to be on holidays, on such an important debate which has come into this Assembly that we should be counselling the public view as widely as possible?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I had been aware of that. I had written correspondence to draw that to my attention and I have not given that much thought on it for what needs to be done immediately but, having heard the point well made by the Constable of Trinity there, I think that is something worth considering. I am somebody who voted in favour of the principle of assisted dying but I said throughout that debate that it is such an important and sensitive subject that this Assembly cannot risk implementing anything that is not fit for purpose, that does not have appropriate safeguards within it, and risks putting a system forward that is not suitable for the Island. If that means we have to have a slightly longer public consultation to make sure that every issue within that is ironed out to people's confidence then it is worth doing. That is the type of consultation that should not be rushed.
Irrespective of which side of the argument Members come, it does concern me that Members during the induction programme are receiving a briefing from somebody who is definitely pro the subject. Does that really give a balanced view to candidates on such an important subject?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I have to say that I would trust Members to know in their hearts what they believe is the right thing on this important matter of conscience. It is the case that the previous States Assembly overwhelmingly voted in favour and so it is right that the machinery of government goes ahead with what that decision was. Remember a key part of that decision is that it does come back to this Assembly when more thought and work has been done on the safeguards. So in going ahead with that part of the work they are fulfilling the democratic mandate given by this Assembly, and that is right that that happens. But let us be absolutely clear, this Assembly is not being deprived of an ultimate say on it and will have substantial opportunities to go through that detail and make sure that whatever comes to this Assembly is fit for purpose, and if it is not I fully expect Members to vote according to the consciences and throw it out.
It is widely accepted that the Island faces considerable economic challenges. What key measures would the candidate suggest to rejuvenate the Jersey economy for the next few years?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
This is something that has to fall within the key priority that I am hoping to set about preparing Jersey for the challenges of the future. The world of work is going to change. We have seen some of that forced upon us because of the pandemic. Technological changes are hopefully going to have a positive impact but we have to be absolutely prepared for those. The last Assembly did establish the Technology Fund; that is not in operation yet because there is still some work to do on it to make sure that its terms of reference are set properly, that the way that businesses can obtain support from it is more robust. We need to make sure that is in place and done properly because it is the case that businesses in Jersey do not receive the kinds of support that lots of other jurisdictions have the initiative to provide in their economies as well to support that. That can be an important way of making sure that where there are potential areas of growth that align with our strategic priorities, whether that is reducing carbon emissions, et cetera, and that the Government has a decent processing place to get support for those businesses. But more widely, I think it is extremely important now that the Government has some sort of taskforce or action point or something with the business community to look at where certain skill shortages are and where things are developing in the future to make sure that our education and training systems are prepared for that, so that those businesses have got the skills that they need.
Could I ask the candidate to narrow the focus down a little bit and talk about the financial sector and explain how he would take the financial sector forward, given well-known problems with productivity and so on in the recent past?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I do not know if this is exactly what he wants me to talk about but I will mention it anyway. I have had some really good discussions with representatives from Jersey Finance in recent months about the opportunities that there are for the finance industry to benefit from some of the global moves there are from the climate emergency. Green finance; ensuring that part of our economy can provide services, potentially around the world, that are not just good for the environment but good for helping alleviate poverty. Jersey Finance has put a plan forward to promote that part of the economy and we have said in our manifesto that we are wholeheartedly behind that, and I would want - at a relatively early stage in this term of office - to bring them in to discuss what support Government can provide if there are law changes that need to be made, or how we regulate that part of the industry to make sure that it is meeting global standards. I think we ought to prioritise that because there are just too many good opportunities that could arise from it to say no to.
[11:45]
Over the past 10 years we have gifted our arm's length organisations of Andium, Jersey Development Company and Ports of Jersey, vast amounts of public land. Many are believing that these companies are working without due consultation and purely to generate revenue, and not to use public land for public good. Does the candidate believe the relationship between A.L.O.s (arm's length organisation) and the Assembly is working, and would he propose any changes to ensure that our A.L.O.s are working for the Island and for public good?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
So the short answer to that is, no, they are not working anywhere near as well as they could do. My experience when I was Minister for Housing and, therefore, had a strong relationship with one of those A.L.O.s, is that when such an important part of their relationship with the Government goes through the shareholder representative, which is the Treasury, then too much of the focus is on the financials. The fact is that we are very lucky as a society that we have a majority-owned electricity company, we have got a fully publicly-owned telecoms company, we have got a publicly-owned developer, we have got a publicly-owned social housing provider. Lots of jurisdictions do not have that kind of thing and when we have at our disposal the resources and the expertise of the people who work for these A.L.O.s, they could and should be more directed to our strategic aims as a Government and as a society. Jersey Electricity in particular will be a fundamental partner when it comes to the transition towards carbon neutrality. I believe that the Government has not been proactive enough in engaging with them and making sure that we enable them to deliver on some of that. In terms of the provision for affordable housing as well, I am certainly of the view that at least one of our providers has ambitions to provide homes which do not quite meet the evident need there is for particular types of homes. So that relationship must be looked at and it must be firmly established that those organisations exist to meet our strategic needs and we are not their servants, which I think too many have kind of felt that way in the past.
One example of an A.L.O. that I think is not getting enough scrutiny at the moment would be Ports of Jersey, who the last time I saw anything about their masterplan was September 2020. A lot of people I think are concerned that Ports of Jersey are going to prioritise luxury moorings and waterfront residential over traditional maritime uses. Now, our tradition maritime industry and kind of community use is a great part of our culture and heritage and so my question is: would the candidate support safeguarding sufficient port land for maritime uses and the use of our old English and French harbours for tidal, affordable moorings?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I am delighted to take a question about a very important part of the St. Helier South constituency, an area which of course I have canvassed very recently and an area that I think absolutely needs some special focus to make sure that it is maintained as an important part of our town, a way into the Island, but also an important part of our economy for some of those maritime uses that the Deputy has just mentioned. I too am worried about people who own boats, whether those are for leisure or fishing, the risk of them being priced out because of some of these wider ambitions. I have also heard of alleged proposals to deliver homes on Ports of Jersey land. I do not know much more about that, and something is wrong with that when the elected representatives of that constituency do not know much about it. There have also been instances in the past where Government Ministers were not provided adequate enough updates from those organisations. So, accountability, that is a core part of the new deal and we need to make sure that these A.L.O.s are delivering on our strategic aims.
How would the candidate assist businesses today to resolve their current manpower crisis, particularly in our key service industries, given his commentary on population growth?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Again, this is feedback that we are all getting, I am sure, from businesses in our constituencies who are struggling to recruit and retain people. I am of the view that you cannot be too surprised when you struggle to recruit people if you are not offering a remuneration package which is enough to provide those people with a good quality of life. That point simply needs to be made, although it certainly is the case that lots of businesses do recognise this and they do make sure that they offer those remuneration packages otherwise they frankly would not be able to exist and be viable. There has been some discussion with the hospitality association about some of the licensing, particularly for short term licences which appear to not really match what the economy needs in terms of the length of time that they are able to stay before then going, and then coming back 3 months' later when some of the businesses that depend on that are year-round businesses and not necessarily purely just seasonal. So, I think that is something that needs to be looked at. But also at every point in that process we have to have very high regard for workers' rights and make sure that people who are coming here to work in those industries have their rights respected, and that they are able to enjoy a good quality of life while they are here as well.
Deputy D. Warr :
Does the candidate support the existing single site proposal for the hospital, and if not what would his preferred alternative be?
The Bailiff :
Deputy , that is not really a supplemental question based on your original question. That is an entirely new question so I think what we will do is move on.
Deputy D. Warr :
It is disallowed, is it?
The Bailiff :
It is.
Has the Deputy any names in mind for his nominations for Ministers, should he be elected Chief Minister?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I mentioned in my opening speech that I have not approached Members of this Assembly to offer them any kinds of position, and I extend that to my own party members as well who I have said we absolutely need to be very open-minded about this. Because I want to learn more about what Members' priorities will be. If Members elect me as Chief Minister today and say that they are absolutely sure that they want Jersey to take a more social democratic route for this next term of office and align themselves with the idea of a new deal for Jersey then I think we have to make absolute best use of the talents that are on offer. I suppose when there is lots of talk about unity and inclusivity I should say that a line does have to be drawn at some point, and that would have to be at the point where some Members would find themselves not aligned with those aspirations entirely and I would not want to see the cohesiveness of a Government put at risk by having Members contribute to it who are not really signed up to what the Government's broader aims are.
Deputy M. Scott :
If government officers do not perform in the way the Deputy wishes, how does he propose to the address the issue as an alternative to resigning?
The Bailiff :
I am not sure that is a supplemental question either. That covers a different area and, therefore, not allowed.
Deputy , in your opening speech you spoke about doing more for people with long-term problems and health needs. Will the candidate commit to having our bespoke rehabilitation services on Samarès Ward open as a matter of urgency, which will in turn take the pressure of beds off the General Hospital and again help our patients get better quicker?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I hope there is a very easy answer to that, which is yes. When that proposition was brought to this Assembly in the previous term we supported that. I understand it has been a bit of a bumpy ride since then but given the importance that there is for those who benefit from those services I think that is the kind of thing that we ought to try to have resolved as quickly as possible.
It is a key policy of the Deputy , and indeed the Reform Party, to remove G.S.T. from food and essential items, and that is a laudable objective and certainly worthy of future debate by this Assembly. If that were to happen I understand that would create a shortfall in income of G.S.T. of, I am not sure, somewhere around £30 million ..
Deputy S.Y. Mézec : £10 million.
Deputy L.J. Farnham :
£10 million, okay, I am overstating it. Approximately £10 million. Would the Deputy seek to replace that revenue and, if so, how would he do that?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I am very pleased that I was able for the second time in a row to stand on an election manifesto which had its pledges costed. It is a fundamental principle that I would sign up to that Governments should not be imprudent with public money and should be transparent about how they seek to fund things. It is my view that G.S.T. is a regressive tax and its presence on food and essential items has a negative impact on our society, and frankly it just does not morally sit right with me, so I want to change that. The advice that we have received is that the cost implications of that would be about £10 million a year. That is obviously a significant amount of money and it would be recurring, so let us be honest about that. But we are also committed to reforming our wider tax system to make it progressive and fair. We should not tolerate the fact that so many people, particularly on lower incomes, struggle to make ends meet because of them having to fork out for certain taxes while people at the very top of the income scale get to benefit from privileges that frankly have no justification. So, I would want to balance our tax proposals by abolishing some of those privileges which exist for people who need it the least, so that we can focus instead on those who need the support the most.
Can I thank the Deputy for that answer and could he perhaps clarify, would that involve increasing the maximum rate of income tax, which is currently 20 per cent?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I think that our income tax policy is crystal clear in our manifesto, and Deputy Farnham has also benefited from hearing me explain the detail of it several times in this Assembly when I have brought it as amendments. Our policy on income tax is to abolish the 20 means 20 calculation. Not least because there is no such thing as a 20 per cent tax rate in Jersey anymore, because of all the supplementary taxes that are charged on it. That headline figure is a fallacy now and we ought to just accept that. If you abolish that form of tax calculation and you apply the same formula to everyone, the marginal relief system, which in my view is fairer and more progressive because it enables people to claim tax allowances through it, you generate enough revenue to lower the basic rate from 26 per cent to 25 per cent, providing a modest, but I am sure, welcome break for people in the squeezed middle and ensuring that those on the lowest incomes do not pay any more. Yes, it would mean those at the top of the income pay more. I am prepared to say that we should be open and honest about that, rather than take the approach the previous Governments have of stealth taxes, which tried to hide the fact that they have not had the revenue to fund the services that they have been aiming to.
The candidate concentrated in his address to Members on his domestic agenda and said nothing about international relations. Does he think Jersey's international relations are important? If he does, how would he seek to improve relations with our nearest neighbour, France?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
That is, of course, a very good question. The reason that I did not mention it in the statement is not because it is not important, but because I suspect that there is probably not much controversy in what we all would seek for Jersey's role internationally and our international relations. I do not necessarily see that as more of a divisive issue. We want Jersey to be well represented at all the appropriate levels, in the U.K., European Union and, of course, for our nearest neighbours in France. I found it very sad to witness what has seemed like a deterioration of our relationships with those in France, not just nationally, but also the regional governments as well. It is extremely important for our well- being as a society that we have good relationships with our nearest neighbours, not just economically, but culturally and socially as well. I would certainly want to see the External Relations Department, which I believe is in the process of being established as its own department, to be able to continue a lot of the good work it has done in recent years to make sure that Jersey's case is well put to our nearest neighbours.
Will the Deputy make the government services more accessible to those with disability and English as a second language?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Yes, that is a very important question and one that I hope the newly-elected Deputy Porée will, I am sure, have some good advice for whoever is in Government on how that can best be done. The pandemic, unfortunately, did lead to some process changes, which have made some of our services less accessible. It was a backward step to lose the ability for drop-in appointments in the Customer and Local Services Department. I would like to see that reopened. She mentioned in particular those who speak English as an additional language. That absolutely has to be part of the broader strategy for delivering public services to make sure that people in this Island, for whatever cultural reasons
may not be as receptive to pubic services as they are currently delivered, have their needs considered. I am optimistic that this Assembly will be much more open to that, because we are the most representative Assembly we have had in history.
[12:00]
Farming is fundamental to Jersey in its identity. If elected, will the Deputy commit to supporting the rural economy, listen to the very real concerns of farmers, and support the industry?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Absolutely. As well as being an important part of our economy, they are also the custodians of much land in Jersey that I want to see preserved as much as possible because of what it does for our quality of life and what is unique about Jersey. I was particularly pleased in the recent Island Plan debates that Reform Jersey managed to maintain a 100 per cent record in supporting the maintenance of green space and agricultural land. In the face of over 100 amendments it was no mean feat being able to maintain that consistency through that. That would be a position I would maintain and want to ensure that we do not lose perfectly good agricultural land. Of course, there is pressure for housing; that has to be considered. However, there is a lot more that we ought to be doing before we entertain the idea of losing that important land.
I am delighted to hear the Deputy 's answer. Would he also commit to looking at permits for farm workers?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Yes, of course. If there is a good case to be made for something that will help our economy, yes, we absolutely should consider it. However, it comes down to the final detail on that and making sure that people who are coming to work here are treated as well as they possibly can, have their rights respected, and make sure that Government does not forget about them while they are here and have them risking their own well-being because of falling through the cracks.
Does the Deputy see any opportunity for working more closely with our Guernsey neighbours? If so, in what areas?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
I do. I travel to Guernsey frequently and have a good relationship with many of the politicians that they have over there. We do have to be careful in that they are an independent democracy, as are we. If we decide democratically that our aspirations for particular types of public services are not aligned then we do have to accept that. There is definitely work that can be done in our mutual interests. I have seen some of that first hand when I witnessed previous External Relations Ministers from both Islands working together at party conferences. I saw that first hand and saw how effective it is. That is something to look at. When it comes to the provision of public services, although as a proud Jerseyman it pains me to admit it, there may well be things they do better over there and so we should be open-minded about that.
If the Deputy sees the opportunity how will he achieve this and how would he succeed where others have failed?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Good question. We do have a good relationship with Guernsey and we do have good relationships with members of their Government, even though occasionally stuff flares up in the media that might not make it seem that way. I do not know why it has been so difficult in the past to work more closely with them, so I do not know how I can give a better answer to this Constable when he asks it. Other than to say that I do accept how important it is that we have a good relationship with them, learn from them where possible and, frankly, just be good neighbours and friends with them. The other Channel Islands, if they are suffering, that can inevitably lead to suffering in Jersey as well with our economy and our international reputation, so we ought to be working together where we possibly can.
What will the Deputy do to enable real life-long learning and to ensure that education funding is available to all Islanders?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
This is going to be fundamental, because of the way the economy is changing. The carbon neutral agenda will be part of that as well. We will see certain jobs that will be made obsolete in years to come. In the finance industry as well, as certain processes become automated, there will be certain jobs that simply do not have a need to exist anymore. We cannot do what we have seen happen in other jurisdictions where you embrace technological change and then abandon the people who are left behind as a result of it. There have to be opportunities for when the nature of particular industries or particular jobs is changing that we work proactively with those businesses up front and their workers' representatives as well in their trade unions, to find out where these gaps are merging. We have to make sure that we have, on-Island where possible, training opportunities so that people can be redirected and we do not have happen what we have seen in other places, where you end up with generations of unemployment because there was not the proper investment in helping people get back into work when the nature of their work changed.
It appears that there are frequent issues regarding the availability of the workers and staff we need to provide care to our elderly people to allow them to remain in their own homes. It also appears that the funding available for that care, via the long-term care allowance, is not sufficient and that families are sometimes struggling to pay the cost of the care themselves. Can you tell us what you will do to ensure that we have both the people and the funding we need to provide care for our ageing and older population?
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
Let us free up some funding for long-term care first up by abolishing the regressive and unfair cap there is on long-term care tax, which is currently capped at incomes of £250,000. I find that morally questionable. It leads to a situation where we are struggling in that particular area in Jersey. We could free up very easily some extra millions of pounds to throw into that to make sure we can provide more care and hopefully be more generous in what contributions we expect from those who receive care. More broadly than that, we need to finally get on with it and implement the ethical care charter, which is something Deputy Southern raised years ago, which at its heart is about making the role of a professional carer one that is treated with respect and dignity, with good working conditions, so that we do not see what we see in that area and others as well, where people work there for a few months or a few years and end up leaving because they are not offered the quality of life that they frankly deserve when they are doing such an important role.
The Bailiff :
Very well, that brings the question time for Deputy Mézec to an end. I would ask for Deputy Moore to be called back into the Chamber. While that is happening, could I mention that there were at least 2 occasions on which I could have fined Members for phones going off and pinging and things of that nature. I do not propose to do so on this first occasion, but just a reminder that there is a fine normally if an electronic device sounds within the Assembly. Secondly, one or 2 Members forgot to speak entirely through the Chair. It was not a huge problem, but 2 Members address the respective candidates as "you". It should always be through the Chair by referring to them in the third person. As both candidates have spoken and have answered questions, we now more to the vote. As there are 2 candidates, we shall use the electronic voting system. Any Member wishing to vote for Deputy Moore should press the P button and any Member wishing to vote for Deputy Mézec should press the C button. Members retain the option of abstaining if they wish; in those circumstances they should press the A button. That will, of course, not be counted as a vote cast for the purposes of calculation. Just to repeat that, Deputy Moore press the P button, Deputy Mézec press the C button. I invite Members to return to their seats and I ask the Greffier to open the voting and Members to cast their votes. If Members have had the opportunity of casting their votes, then I ask the Greffier to close the voting. Members voting P, therefore for Deputy Moore , 39. Members voting C for Deputy Mézec , 10. No abstentions. [Approbation] Accordingly, I can announce that Deputy Moore has been appointed as Chief Minister designate.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Sir, could I not ask for the names to be read out? [Laughter] The Bailiff :
Yes, I am happy to accede to that application, Deputy Tadier . Deputy K.L. Moore :
May I thank everybody for their support and their encouragement. I also thank Deputy Mézec for expressing his views and putting forward a strong argument to the Assembly. I look forward to working with Reform and with each and every other Member of the Assembly. Uniting our community, it is time to get Jersey back on track. [Approbation]
Deputy S.Y. Mézec :
As the defeated candidate, may I congratulate Deputy Moore and wish her all the very best. It is our entire Island's interest that her Government succeeds and I will provide whatever constructive input I can to that process. [Approbation]
The Bailiff :
That concludes Public Business for this meeting and the Assembly stands adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Monday, 11th July.
[12:14]