States Minutes 17th October 1989

STATES MINUTES 1 7 t h October, 1989

 THE STATES assembled on Tuesday,  17th October, 1989 at 10.15 a.m. under  t he Presidency of the Bailiff ,

S i r Peter Crill, C.B.E.

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All Members were present with the exception of -

S enator Bernard Thomas Binnington -

o ut of the Island.

S enator John Stephen Rothwell - out of t he Island.

S enator Terence John Le Main -

 a bsent.

S enator Corrie Stein - out of the

 I sland.

E dwin Le Gresley Godel, Connétable of S t. Mary - out of the Island.

 J ohn Le Gallais, Deputy of St.

S aviour - out of the Island.

 S ir Martin Le Quesne, Deputy of St.

S aviour - out of the Island.

M argaret Sylvia Rose Beadle, Deputy of S t. Brelade - out of the Island.

M ichael Adam Wavell, Deputy of St.

H elier - out of the Island.

 T homas John du Feu, Deputy of St.

P eter - out of the Island.

 H enri Leon Dubras, Deputy of St.

M artin - out of the Island.

 G raeme Ernest Rabet, Deputy of St.

H elier - out of the Island.

A lan Payn Bree, Deputy of Grouville -

o ut of the Island.

_ _ _ _ _ _______

P r a y e rs  

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Subordinate legislation tabled. The following enactment was laid before the States, namely -

R oad Racing (Motor Vehicle Rally) ( Jersey) Order, 1989. R & O 7985.

Matter lodged.

The following subject was lodged au Greffe'' -

L icensing (Jersey) Law, 1974:

a dministration. P.134/89.

P resented by Senator Richard Joseph S henton.

Rezoning of land for Category A housing. P.57/89.

THE STATES acceded to the request

of the President of the Island Development Committee that consideration of the Proposition relating to rezoning of land

for Category A housing (lodged on 9th May, 1989 and partially debated on 29th August, 1989) be deferred from 31st October, 1989 to a later date.

Green Zone development. Questions and answers.

Senator Jean Amy Le Maistre asked

the Connétable of St. John, President of the Island Development Committee, the following questions -

  In the light of the Island

 D evelopment Committee's policy towards  d evelopment in the Green Zone in

 r espect of States Loan houses, as

 p resented to the States in August,

 1 989, will the President inform the

H ouse whether -

Q uestion 1

  The Committee is now prepared to

 c onsider favourably the development of  i ndividual sites within the Green Zone  f or States Loan houses provided that

a ccepted planning criteria prevail? Q uestion 2

T he Committee is prepared to

r econsider any application which has b een rejected on the grounds that it

i s in the Green Zone but complies with p lanning criteria and provided that

t he application is re-submitted to

b uild a States Loan property,

a ccepting that any such application

w ould require approval by the

S tates?''

The President of the Island Development Committee replied as follows -

  Before I answer the Senator's

 q uestions in detail I feel that it is

   right that certain points be made so  t hat my answers will be better

 a ppreciated.

W e all recognise that the countryside i s one of the Island's finest assets.

O ne of the fundamental aims of the I sland Development Committee and i ndeed the Island Plan is to maintain a nd, where possible, enhance the

q uality of the countryside.

T he Green Zone is a major tool

i n protecting the countryside from the u nacceptable spread of development.

T he Green Zone includes the most s ensitive areas of the landscape

i ncluding the cliffs, coastal

h eathlands, dunes, woodlands,

p rominent coastal areas and inland v alleys.

I n these areas therefore, the

C ommittee will continue its long-

s tanding practice of preventing new d evelopment, unless there are

e xceptional agricultural reasons for d oing so.

T he Island Plan brought about

s ignificant alterations to the Green

Z one boundaries, which now effectively h ug the edge of the built-up area

a long the south coast.

T he Island Development Committee,

h aving regard to the numerous factors a nd having assessed many alternative

s ites, concludes in Projet 57/89 that

s ome of this newly-zoned land could be d eveloped satisfactorily to cater for

t he immediate, but previously

u nforeseen, housing needs of the

c ommunity, without unduly detracting f rom the landscape, provided the

l andscape was to remain the dominant e lement in any development scheme. It i s therefore prepared to apply the

s ame policy to these areas as it would

f or development in the Green Backdrop Z one.

T he Committee has quite properly used i ts discretion (having regard to

p resent circumstances) in assessing

s ites on their individual merits and

i n recommending that certain sites be

r ezoned for Category A housing

p urposes. It is simply asking the

S tates to do the same.

T his certainly does not mean that

t he Island Development Committee will a ccept the principle of widespread

d evelopment throughout the Green Zone f or single plots.

A nswer 1

T he Committee is and always has been p repared to consider any development p roposals for individual sites

a nywhere on the Island, whether they

i nvolve States' Loan housing or Green Z one land. However, the proposals will b e determined on their individual

m erits having regard to the

C ommittee's normal policies and

o bjectives.

H aving said that, there will continue

to be a general presumption against

a ll new development in the Green Zone, w hether it be for States' Loan houses

o r any other purpose.

I t does not follow that if a site can b e serviced and development is

t echnically feasible, that the

C ommittee will automatically approve d evelopment just because it is a house w hich would qualify for a States'

L oan.

 T here are many other factors to

 c onsider regarding the site's

 s uitability and the Green Zone

 d esignation will remain the major   planning criteria'.

O ne of the Committee's

f undamental objectives will remain the p rotection of the countryside.

T here have, of course, been occasions w hen the Committee has favourably

c onsidered the residential development

o f a site in the Green Zone and has

c onsequently brought these to the

H ouse for ratification (e.g. Cowdray D rive, Rue du Horman, etc).

A nswer 2

T he Committee is, and always has been, prepared to reconsider any

a pplication which has been refused on p olicy grounds including applications

i n the Green Zone, where new evidence i s brought to light.

T he general presumption outlined

i n Question 1, however, will continue t o operate.

I t has to be said that in most

c ases, appellants do not supply

s ufficient new material evidence to w arrant any reversal of the

C ommittee's previous decisions.''

S upplementary questions and answers.

C onnétable of St. Brelade - Is the

P resident of the Island Development C ommittee saying that when he

p resented the Island Plan Volume 2 to t his House he was not aware that we h ad a housing shortage. I think that

h e would have known that the list

w hich existed would have indicated

t hat there would have to be more sites a llocated. Would it not have been

b etter for the House if the President c ame back with Volume 2 amended so t hat we all knew exactly where we

s tood, because some of us do believe

t hat when we approved the Volume 2 w hich extended the Green Zone we felt t hat was something that we would not e asily tinker with. Now it is being

s uggested that some of the Green Zone s hould not be built on and some could b e. I believe it would be more

s atisfactory if the Volume 2 was

r evised?''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - The question of revising t he Island Plan policies is ever

b efore us and I am sure that as soon

a s time is made available to my

o fficers and to Committee for

d iscussion then we will be coming to

t he House with the revisions. The

G reen Zone was set out as a protection a s I have said in my answers and the

n umber of housing units that my

o fficers and consultants had been

i nformed was required were accounted f or. Unfortunately some of these sites a re taking longer than they should but I trust that eventually they will be

z oned in the planned period. My

C ommittee and even the consultants w ere not aware of the great increase

i n the community figures which has

b een shown by the censuses.''

S enator P.F. Horsfall - Would the

P resident agree with the fact that the C ommittee has now had to go into

t he recently enlarged Green Zone to

m eet this need and this has in fact

b een brought about largely by pressure c aused by lack of drainage for

s ervicing other suitable sites not in

t he Green Zone in other parts of the

I sland?''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I do not agree that the

s ites that we have designated for in

P .57/89 have been totally the cause of t he lack of sewerage. Lack of sewerage h as been an important factor and this

o f course will help when the sewerage f acility is made available.''

S enator  B. Brooke - In the

s tatement the President has just made

a nd his answer which is a very lengthy

a nswer to a quite short question,

t here is a sense of urgency but

p reviously unforeseen housing needs

u sed as a reaction having regard to

t he present circumstances, one feels

t hat it has all been a bit of a

s urprise and I wonder how much liaison

t here is between the Island

D evelopment Committee President and

t he Housing President, because these

f igures do not just suddenly appear or

h ave they suddenly appeared and did we n ot have a forecast of this? Did we

n ot know how many people were reaching t he top and available for housing?

T his is what worries me, Mr.

P resident, and I would like a

r eassurance that in fact the President

o f the Island Development Committee

d id know.''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - We did not know the

i ncrease in numbers as has been shown

i n the recent census. We were aware

a nd we had great co-operation with the H ousing Department and furthermore the E conomic Adviser's Department, the

t hree departments discussed and

a ssessed the need for housing from

f igures that were available at that

t ime. But you must appreciate that

t his Island Plan was approved in

N ovember 1987 and before that it was

i n print for some time, so it does go

b ack and it is only these last census

f igures that have highlighted the

g reat immigration problem that we have i n this Island.''

S enator J.A. Le Maistre - Is the

P resident aware that within the census f igures there are some 13,000 people w ho are shown to have come into the I sland in the last six years, many of

w hom do not have residential

q ualifications.''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I would be happy to give t he Senator those facts on a later

o ccasion.''

S enator D.A. Carter - I recall that

P rojet 57/89 and the necessary zoning

o f land was to cater for the extra

n umbers which were revealed in the

1 986 census. Now it is very good news t hat the President is now saying that

i n fact Projet 57/89 will also deal

w ith the extra numbers shown in the

1 989 census. That is not what he told

t he House last time. The question is

h e has just said that the unforeseen

n eeds covered by Projet 57/89 are

t hose of the 1989 census, is that true

b ecause it is very good news? The

P resident of the Housing Committee is s haking his head so it is not true.''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I would say that the

1 989 figures will have an influence on

o ur housing needs, but they are not

i ncluded in any of our assessments.''

S enator  R.R. Jeune - Could I ask the

P resident of the Island Development

C ommittee whether his Committee look u pon the Green Zone now, the amended G reen Zone and the augmented Green

Z one as one, or is there a sort of

G rade 1 which is the original, very

i mportant Green Zone and a Grade 2?

N ow in some ways I looked upon the

G reen Zone as being cheapened, perhaps t hat is not the right word, in

e nlarging it, but the question is that

t o me and to many others the original

G reen Zone was absolutely sacrosanct,

t hat zone was augmented and does he

l ook upon them as 1 or 2 grade?''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - As I have said the Green Z one has been brought right down to

t he building edge, to the urban edge

a nd this is why it has not been

c heapened but it has been brought down f or the very purpose of stopping any

i ncrease of building into the

c ountryside. We did that, that was

a greed. But what we were not aware of w as the amount of immigration that had b een occurring in the Island since

1 986 and was putting extreme pressure

o n our housing stock. We can easily

s top suggesting sites but then the

H ouse will have to face the people who

a re desperate to find a home.''

T he Bailiff - Senator, you asked the q uestion whether the Green Zone is a p olicy which applies to the whole of t he Green Zone, or is it a policy in

r espect of one part of the Green Zone a nd another policy for another part of t he Green Zone?''

P resident, Island Development C ommittee - It is one zone.''

Allocation of States loan properties. Statement.

The President of the Housing

Committee made a Statement in the following terms -

  I should like to advise States

M embers on the current position in

 r elation to the allocation of States

 L oan properties from my Committee's  w aiting list.

S ome weeks ago my Committee made a d ecision that in future units should

b e allocated in accordance with family s ize - that is, flats to married

c ouples without children, houses to

t hose with children. The background to t he Committee's decision is that it is

n ow inevitable that many of the States L oan properties to be built in the

f uture will be flats. The policy of

a cquiring commercial sites in the town l ends itself more to the construction

o f flats than houses; many of the

s ites already zoned in the Island Plan

w ill be developed with flats in order

t o achieve the numbers needed to meet d emand from the waiting list. Planning p ermits have already been issued for

t he construction of 100 loan flats in

t he Le Marais/Le Squez district alone, a nd many more can be expected for the I sland as a whole.

T he allocation of new homes to be b uilt on fields 14 and 18 in St.

C lement brought the issue into clear f ocus for my Committee. On these

 f ields, work will soon get under way

 f or 26 loan houses and 60 loan flats

 t o be built alongside each other. Many

o f those at the top of the waiting

 l ist either do not have children or

have grown-up children. Some are at an a ge when it is unlikely that they will

 e ver have children. Such couples, if

o ffered the houses as their position

o n the list would justify, are highly

 l ikely to accept them. Yet further

 d own the list are couples with

 c hildren, mostly young, who would

 t herefore be offered the flats, unless

o f course they opted to refuse such

o ffer in favour of the offer of a

 h ouse which might materialise in the

 f uture. In my Committee's view it did

 n ot make good sense to offer the

 h ouses to couples and flats to the

 y oung families simple because of a

  first come, first served' principle.

 I t was a difficult decision, not

 l ightly taken, and we always knew that  w e would be open to criticism whatever

o ur decision.''

Sea-Fisheries (Jersey) Law, 1962 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Act, 1989.

THE STATES in pursuance of Article

14 of the Sea-Fisheries (Jersey) Law, 1962, as amended, made an Act entitled the Sea- Fisheries (Jersey) Law, 1962 (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Act, 1989.

Draft Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law, 1989. P.105/89.

THE STATES commenced consideration

of the draft Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law, 198  (lodged on 18th July, 1989) and adopted the Preamble and Articles 1 to 11. Article 12 was adopted, the States having accepted an amendment of the Finance and Economics Committee that in sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph 5 of Article 12, that after the words proceeds of sale'' there shall be inserted the words, , or such

part of the proceeds as represents the

value of the interest in the part of the property as to which the Viscount is beneficially entitled,''.

Articles 13 to 51 were adopted.

The Bill was lodged, as amended, in Second Reading.

THE STATES decided to consider the Bill in Third Reading on 31st October, 1989. (P.136/89).

Probate (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1989. P.128/89.

THE STATES subject to the sanction

of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Probate (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1989.

Torture (Jersey) Law, 1989. P.131/89.

THE STATES subject to the sanction

of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Torture (Jersey) Law, 1989.

Firearms (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1989. P.133/89.

THE STATES subject to the sanction

of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Firearms (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1989.

THE STATES rose at 12.45 p.m.

R .S . G R A  Y   Deputy Greffier of the States.