States Minutes 11th December 1990

STATES MINUTES 1 1 th December, 1990 P r ic e : # 1 .0 0

 THE STATES assembled on Tuesday,  11th December, 1990 at 10.00 a.m. under  t he Presidency of the Bailiff ,

S i r Peter Crill, C.B.E.

_ _ _ _ _ _______

All Members were present. _ _ _ _ _ _______

P r a y e rs  

_ _ _ _ _ _______

Subordinate legislation tabled

The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -

 1 .  Amendment (No. 12) to the Tariff

o f H arbour and Light Dues. R & O

8 1 4 7.

 2 .  Collective Investment Funds

( R e cognized Funds) (General

P r o visions) (Amendment No. 6)

( J er sey) Order 1990. R & O 8148.

 3 .  Control of Borrowing (Amendment N  o . 6) (Jersey) Order 1990. R & O 8 1 4 9.

Matters lodged

The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -

 1 .  Draft Census (Jersey) Regulations 1 9 9 . P.192/90.

P r e sented by the Etat Civil

C o m mittee.

 2 .  Draft Road Traffic (No. 39) ( J er sey) Regulations 199 .

P . 1 93/90.

P r e sented by the Defence C o m mittee.

 3 .  Langford, Mont Millais, St. H  el ier: purchase. P.194/90. P r e sented by the Island

D  ev elopment Committee.

 4 .  Lighting of main roads in St.

H  el ier. P.195/90.

P r e sented by the Public Services C o m mittee.

Draft Public Employees

(Contributory Retirement Scheme) (General) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P.173/90. Withdrawn

THE STATES noted that the President

of the Establishment Committee had withdrawn the draft Public Employees (Contributory Retirement Scheme) (General) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 199 (lodged on 6th November 1990) which had been set down for debate at the present Sitting.

Draft Census (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P.174/90. Withdrawn

THE STATES noted that the President

of the Etat Civil Committee had withdrawn the draft Census (Jersey) Regulations 199 (lodged on 6th November 1990) which had been set down for debate at the present Sitting.

Immigration and Nationality Department: temporary accommodation. Questions and answers

Deputy Alan Payn Bree of Grouville asked Senator Reginald Robert Jeune , President of the Finance and Economics Committee, the following questions -

Will the President inform the House on the following questions -

Question 1

  In its Act No. 15 of 26th November

1 990 presented to the States as a

P aper for information on 4th December 1 990, the Committee agreed to make

a vailable immediately the sum of £ 150,000 to provide temporary

a ccommodation for the Immigration and N ationality Department. What was the

r eason for this urgency?''

The President of the Finance and Economics Committee replied as follows -

  At the end of October the Public

 S ervices Department advised the

 T reasurer of the States that in June

 t his year it had received a report

 f rom architects within the Public

 S ervices Department which had been

 c onfirmed by consulting engineers Ove  A rup and Partners regarding the

 s tructural state of the Immigration

 a nd Nationality Department's offices

 a t Victoria Chambers. The conclusion

o f these reports showed that the

 b uilding should be vacated as soon as

 p ractically possible. We were advised

 t hat Ove Arup had reiterated this

o pinion in a letter to the Public

 S ervices Department dated 5th August  i n which they state -

O u r concern is that, as time

p a s ses, there is a probability

t h at rot and infestation will

c a u se a weakening of the timbers ( s tr uctural), and a timber member w  il l partly collapse, causing a

re d istribution of load to other

p a r ts of the structure where

l o ad ing eccentricities and rot

p r o blems already exist. A similar r e d istribution of load could occur s h o uld the foundations settle.

T h i s change of loading may then c a u se failure in other parts of

t h e structure.'

M y Committee, at its meeting on 26th

N ovember agreed to consider a late

i tem because it was advised that the

s ubject was urgent. The Public

Services Committee wished to have

f unds made available immediately to

r elocate the Immigration and

N ationality Department in temporary

a ccommodation in the New North Quay as a matter of urgency. My Committee was a dvised that the manufacturers of the

t emporary accommodation required at

l east 12 weeks to construct the office

p rior to delivery to site, and a

f urther three to four weeks for

e rection and site works. We were also

a dvised that the Immigration and

N ationality Department will need to

m ove into its new accommodation before 1 st April 1991 as pressure of work

d uring the holiday season will prevent

a move at a late date. In view of the

s tatements submitted to my Committee, w e understood that it was essential

t hat an order be placed without

d elay.''

Supplementary question and answer

D eputy A.P. Bree - Is the Committee n ot concerned at the apparent lack of u rgency by the delay of four months

f rom the receipt of the report and the n otification to the Treasurer at the

e nd of October?''

P resident, Finance and Economics

C ommittee - We dealt with the matter w hen it came to us. We considered it

u rgent to be dealt with at that

t ime.''

Deputy Bree Question 2

  The Act states that the

 a ccommodation is to be located at the

 t op of the New North Quay whereas a

 r eport in the Jersey Evening Post of

 1 st December 1990 indicated a location  f urther to the east of the site of the

 f ormer car ferry check-in point. Which  i s correct?''

President, Finance and Economics Committee

  The advice my Committee received  f rom Public Services was that the

 t emporary structure was to be located

o n the New North Quay.

T his was checked with Public Services D epartment following receipt of the

D eputy's question and the Department

c onfirms that the building will be

l ocated in the area of the former car f erry check-in point.''

S upplementary questions and answers

D eputy Bree - Is it not true to say

t hat the area shown has never been p art of the New North Quay but is in f act infill of the old harbour?''

P resident, Finance and Economics

C ommittee - The only consideration

a nd my Committee's is we believe that t his was an urgent matter and it's

r ight and proper that one has the

a bility in any government to be as

f lexible as possible in urgent

m atters. We believe that what we have d one and what we were doing is proper u nder the circumstances and I'm not

p articularly interested in whether

t his was part of the New North Quay or n ot.''

S enator R.J. Shenton - Will the

P resident of Finance accept that the

D efence Committee feels most

e mbarrassed at the fact that his

C ommittee should be, taxed with these q uestions today when, after all, the

m atter was dealt with by the Defence

C ommittee as expeditiously as

p ossible. There was a danger to the

s taff, will be accepted that

a rrangements had tried to be made with t he Harbours and Airport Committee to a ccommodate the staff down at the

A lbert Quay, which is also part of the

o ld harbour, new harbour, New North

Q uay or whatever, that a location was

p rovided in consultation between the

H arbours and Airport Committee, Public S ervices and Defence Committees and

t hat the Finance and Economics

C ommittee came in at a very late stage

a nd really had to pick up the pieces

b ecause of the delay by my Committee

i n reaching agreement with other

C ommittees and will he accept my

a pologies for having to take the

b urden today for the questions?''

P resident, Finance and Economics C ommittee - Yes.''

Deputy Bree Question 3

  In the same report, a statement

 a ttributed to Senator Shenton as

 P resident of the Defence Committee  i ndicated that once vacated it (the

 p resent accommodation at Victoria  C hambers) will be refurbished for

o ccupation by a number of States

 d epartments'.

 ( a) What is the likely cost of this r e fu rbishment?

 ( b) What will be the cost of the

p e r manent building eventually to b e b uilt and where will it be

l o ca ted?''

President, Finance and Economics Committee -

(a) My Committee has not been

n o t if ie d that the existing

p re m  ises are to be

r e fu r b ished, and therefore do n o t k n ow what the

r e fu r b ishment would cost;

 ( b) on 15th October my Committee

a g r eed that there was merit in a

p r o posal made by the Public

S e r vices Committee to carry out a

m  o re detailed feasibility study

f o r the amalgamation of the Impôts D  ep artment, which was currently in t h re e locations, into a complex

t h at would also provide additional

a c c ommodation for the Harbour

O  ff ice and the Immigration and

N  at ionality Department. We

u n d erstood that this feasibility

s tu d y was carried out in

a c c ordance with the procedures

a l re ady agreed in P. 70/90 -

C a pital Projects, Review and

C o n trol'.''

S upplementary question and answer

S enator Shenton - Would the

P resident of Finance agree that the

d ecision of the Defence Committee to

t ry to save this building which is a

p restigious building, fronting onto

L iberation Square is far better than

t he original intention of some 15

m onths ago when it was suggested that t he building should be knocked down, a nd would he not agree that when the a mounts are reported to him he will

t ake them into account to show that

i t's not outside bargaining, but

m embers of the States who are equally c oncerned in preserving our natural

h eritage?''

P resident, Finance and Economics C ommittee - The answer again is y es.''

Deputy Bree Question 4

  This transfer of funds is tantamount  t o a capital vote of credit which will  l ead to further revenue and capital

 e xpenditure; were the Policy and

 R esources Committee consulted?''

President, Finance and Economics Committee

  As the contingency vote of credit is

 w ithin the votes of the Finance and

 E conomics Committee, the Policy and  R esources Committee was not

consulted.''

Deputy Bree Question 5

  Will the President indicate why this

 t ransfer of funds is not contrary to

 h is Committee's own policy of

 r estricting both supplementary and

 a dditional votes of credit and why the

 S tates were not given the opportunity

o f debating this matter, but simply

 p resented with an Act somewhat lacking  i n information?''

President, Finance and Economics Committee

  The purpose of supplementary and

 a dditional votes of credit are clearly

 d efined within the Finance Law, and I h ave restated them on many occasions i n this House. However, if a matter is

o ne of particular urgency and

e specially in cases where the safety

o f the public and the staff is in

j eopardy, my Committee would be

p repared to consider the provision of f unds from its contingency vote.

M y Committee both acknowledges and e ndorses the cautious approach being p ut forward by the Deputy of

G rouville. I can however, assure the

H ouse that my Committee is not

p repared to sanction expenditure from t his vote, unless it can be satisfied,

a s in this case, that the expenditure

i s extremely urgent.''

Payment to certain old age pensions. Question and answer

Deputy Shirley Margaret Baudains of

St. Helier asked Senator Reginald Robert Jeune , Chairman of the Working Party on Need, the following question -

  Can the President inform the House  w hen he expects to be able to give an  a nswer to the supplementary question  t hat I asked on 6th November 1990,

 w ith regard to the percentage increase  i n the personal allowance paid to old  a ge pensioners?''

The Chairman of the Working Party on Need replied as follows -

  We wrote to the Comité

 d e Connétable s on that and another

 r elated matter and we have had a reply  f rom the Connétable s and they have

 i ncreased the current pocket-money'

 a llowance, they call it, by #2 to #12

 p er person weekly, taking effect from  1 st November 1990 and this matter is  c oming before the Working Party on

 N eed at its next meeting as soon as

 i t's reconstituted.''

Random breath testing. Statement

The Attorney General made a statement in the following terms -   I have been asked to advise the

 H ouse about the powers of the police

 t o require motorists to take a breath

 t est. The confusion which sometimes

 a rises amongst the public about random  b reath-testing stems from a failure to

 d istinguish two quite separate powers

o f the police. The powers in question

 a re first the power to require a

 p erson to stop his vehicle and

 s econdly the power to require a person  t o take a breath test.

T he first power has been in existence f or a very long time but is now

c ontained in Article 26 of the Road T raffic (Jersey) Law 1956. Article

2 6(1) provides -

A n y person driving a vehicle on a r o a d shall stop the vehicle on

b e in g so required by a police or

t ra f fic officer and if he fails to

d o so shall be liable to a fine

n o t exceeding #100.'

T his general power allows the police

t o stop vehicles at random. It has

b een exercised for many years by both t he States' police and the honorary

p olice.

T he second power, that is to require a p erson to take a breath test, is

c onferred by Article 16B of the Road T raffic Law and arises broadly

s peaking when a police officer has

r easonable cause to suspect either

t hat the motorist has committed a

t raffic offence whilst the vehicle was i n motion or that the motorist has

a lcohol in his body. Unless a traffic

o ffence has been committed, a police

o fficer may therefore only require a m otorist to take a breath test if he

h as reasonable cause to suspect that

t he motorist has been drinking

a lcohol. There is no power to require m otorists at random to take a breath

t est.

I n summary therefore the police have t he power to stop vehicles at random b ut they do not have the power to

r equire motorists at random to take

t he breath test. That power only

a rises if either a traffic offence

i nvolving a moving vehicle has been c ommitted or the motorist has been

d rinking alcohol. If therefore a

p olice officer, having stopped a

m otorist and asked questions of him, f orms the suspicion that the motorist h as recently consumed alcohol, he has t he power and indeed the duty to

r equire the motorist to take the

b reath test. To confer power on the

P olice to require motorists at random t o take the breath test, without

h aving any suspicion that such

m otorists had recently consumed

a lcohol, would be a substantial

c hange. It would obviously require

l egislation.

W hether it would be a desirable change i s in my opinion debatable. The police c learly have wide powers which ought t o be sufficient to enable them to

c arry out their duties of detecting

o ffenders and deterring others from

d riving whilst unfit to do so. As the

P resident of the Defence Committee is r eported wisely to have said, policing

r equires consensus. I suspect that to

r equire those motorists who do not

d rink alcohol at all, and perhaps

e specially elderly motorists, to take

a breath test could well cause offence

a nd be a bridge too far. My advice to

t he House is that, given continuing

c ourtesy on the part of the police and

t olerance on the part of the public,

t he existing law provides a reasonable b alance between the freedom of the

i ndividual and the protection of the

p ublic.

I obviously do not know what was in

t he minds of individual members when t he debate on the breathalyser took

p lace earlier this year. It may be

t hat because the principle of the

b reathalyser was accepted without

d issent, and because discussion

c entred principally on the level of

a lcohol which a motorist is permitted

t o have in his body without committing a n offence, sufficient attention was

n ot focused on the combined effects of A rticles 26 and 16B. But I am sure

 t hat members will appreciate the

 d esirability of deterring motorists

 f rom driving whilst unfit. The idea

 d oes seem to persist in some quarters

 t hat somehow a driver who is unfit to

 d rive should be given a sporting

 c hance to get away with his crime.

 S uch people would contend that it is

  unfair', for example, for a police

 c ar to station itself near a public

 h ouse or for the Police to conduct

o ccasional road-checks designed to

 d etect such drivers. I have never

 u nderstood why anyone should be given  a sporting chance to cause death or

 i njury to innocent pedestrians or

 i ndeed to other motorists. The

 l aw-abiding motorist has nothing to

 f ear from occasional road-checks. If

 h e has not consumed alcohol he will in  g eneral not be liable to take the

 b reath test. Nothing could be simpler

 t han that. If a motorist does not want

 t o be required to take the breath

 t est, the message is quite clear - do

 n ot drink and drive. If the motorist

 c hooses to consume alcohol before

 d riving he must do so at his own risk.

 I f stopped by the police he will then

 b e liable to take the breath test and,

 i f he has consumed more than the

 s tatutory limit, he will also have

 c ommitted a criminal offence.''

Clubley Estate, St. Helier: lease of No. 64

THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Public Health Committee -

 ( a) approved the lease by the

C o m mittee from Mr. Gordon Rafferty

o f t he furnished, five-bedroomed

p r o perty, 64 Clubley Estate, New

S t . John's Road, St. Helier, on a

o n e -year lease, commencing 1st

D  ec ember, 1990, renewable each

y e a r as necessary, at a rent of

# 2 5 0 a week, the rent to be

r e v iewed annually in line with the

J e rs ey Cost of Living Index;

( b) authorised the Greffier of the S t a tes to sign the necessary l e as e.

Field 205, St. Peter: purchase

THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Harbours and Airport Committee -

 ( a) approved the purchase from Mr.

R i c hard Peter Bonny of Field 205, S t . Peter, measuring 3.9 vergées,

f o r the sum of #15,600 and the

f o n ds of the track and right of

w  ay leading to the field in the

s u m of #2,400, with the Committee b e in g responsible for all legal

f e es incurred in the preparation

o f t he contract;

 ( b) authorised the payment or

d i sc harge of the expenses to be

i n cu rred in connexion with the

a c q uisition of Field 205 and the

f o n ds of the track and right of

w  ay leading to the field and all

le g al expenses, from the Harbours a n d Airport Committee's vote of

c r ed it C2814 - Improvements to

N  o rth Perimeter Area;

 ( c) authorised the Attorney General a n d the Greffier of the States to

p a s s, on behalf of the public, any c o n tract which it is found

n e c essary to pass in connexion

w  it h the acquisition of the said

p r o perty and any interest therein.

Hue Street, St. Helier : purchase of No. 3. P.154/90

THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Island Development Committee -

 ( a) approved the purchase on behalf of t h e public from the curator of

M  is s Dora Foot of her two-thirds

s h a re in the property, No. 3 Hue

S t re et, St. Helier, as shown on

D  ra wing No. 272/1, for the sum of

# 8 0 ,000 plus vendor's legal

e x p enses;

 ( b) authorised the purchase on behalf

o f t he public from Mr. Stanley

F o o t of his one-third share in the

p r o perty No. 3 Hue Street, St.

H  el ier, and decided that, if it

w  as not possible to reach

a g r eement on a fair and proper

p r ic e to be agreed by the Finance

a n d Economics Committee, the

I s la nd Development Committee be e m p owered to acquire the land by

c o m pulsory purchase, in accordance w  it h the provisions of the

C o m pulsory Purchase of Land

( P r ocedure) (Jersey) Law 1961;

 ( c) authorised the payment or

d i sc harge of the expenses to be

i n cu rred in connexion with the

a c q uisition of each of the said

s h a res in the property and all

l e ga l expenses from the Island

D ev elopment Committee's vote of c r ed it C0904 - Acquisition of land ( M ajor Reserve);

 ( d) authorised the Attorney General a n d the Greffier of the States to

p a s s, on behalf of the public, any c o n tract which it is found

n e c essary to pass in connexion

w ith the acquisition of the said

p r o perty and any interest therein.

Mal Assis/Nicholson Park redevelopment. Phase I. P.138/90

THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Housing Committee -

 ( a) approved Drawings Nos. 1545/101-3, 1 5 4 5/106-119, 1545/121-123 and

1 5 4 5/126-134, showing the

d e v elopment at Le Pré de Mal Assis

w  h ich comprises Phase I of the

s c h eme to refurbish Nicholson Park

e s ta te;

 ( b) authorised the Greffier of the

S t ates to sign the said Drawings

o n behalf of the States.

Pesticides (Jersey) Law 1990.

P.178/90

THE STATES, subject to the sanction

of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Pesticides (Jersey) Law 1990.

Committee Presidents: election procedure. P.187/90

THE STATES, adopting a proposition

of the House Committee, requested the Bailiff , at the time of the appointment of Committee Presidents under Standing Order 41, to arrange that the procedure for

holding a ballot, or ballots, in instances where more than one Member was nominated was such as to secure the appointment of

the nominee who receives an absolute majority of the votes cast.

Road Traffic (No. 38) Regulations 1990. P.188/90

THE STATES, in pursuance of the

powers conferred on them by the Order in Council of the twenty-sixth day of December 1851 and Article 49 of the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law 1956, as amended, made Regulations entitled the Road Traffic

(No. 38) (Jersey) Regulations 1990.

Milk (Sale to Special Classes) (Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations 1990. P.189/90

THE STATES, by virtue and in

exercise of the powers conferred on them by the Order in Council of the fourteenth day of April 1884 made Regulations entitled the Milk (Sale to Special Classes) (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Regulations 1990.

Debate in camera

The Bailiff , in accordance with

Article 3(2) of the Public Finances (Administration) (Jersey) Law 1967, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 46(2), ordered the withdrawal of strangers and the closing of the doors of the Chamber in order that the appointment of Mr. George Mackay Baird, LL.B., C.A., as Treasurer of the States, be debated in camera.

Appointment of Treasurer of the States

THE STATES, having deliberated

thereon in camera, proceeded

to vote in public assembly by ballot and approved the appointment of Mr. George Mackay Baird, LL.B., C.A., as Treasurer of the States with effect from 1st July 1991, in accordance with Article 3 of the Public Finances (Administration) (Jersey) Law 1967.

Retiring Members

The Bailiff conveyed the best wishes

of the House to the eight Members who would not be returning in the new Session and, on behalf of the Island, thanked them for

their service.

Greffier of the States, E.J.M. Potter, Esq.: retirement

The Bailiff , on behalf of the

Assembly paid tribute to the services rendered to the States by the Greffier,

Edward James MacGregor Potter, Esq., during his many years of service and especially during the last 20 years as Greffier of the States.

THE STATES rose at 12.45 p.m.

E . J .M  . P O  T T E R G  re f fi er of the States.