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STATES MINUTES 1 3 th February, 1990
THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 13th February, 1990 at 9.30 a.m. under t he Presidency of the Bailiff ,
S i r Peter Crill, C.B.E.
_ _ _ _ _ _______
His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor, Admiral Sir William Pillar, G.B.E., K.C.B. ,
w a s p r esent.
_ _ _ _ _ _______
All Members were present with the exception of -
S enator Reginald Robert Jeune - out of
t he Island.
J ohn Pepin Le Sueur, Connétable of St. J ohn - out of the Island.
L eonard René Hamel, Connétable of St. C lement - ill.
F rancis Hedley Morel , Deputy of St.
S aviour - out of the Island.
M aurice Clement Buesnel, Deputy of St. H elier - ill.
_ _ _ _ _ _______
P r a y e rs
_ _ _ _ _ _______
Subordinate legislation tabled
The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -
1 . Control of Borrowing (Amendment N o . 5) (Jersey) Order 1990. R & O 8 0 2 7.
2 . Road Traffic ( Grouville )
( A m endment No. 3) (Jersey) Order 1 9 9 0. R & O 8028.
Actuarial review of the Social
Security Scheme as at 30th September, 1988. R.C.1
The Social Security Committee by
Act dated 1st February, 1990, presented to the States the report of the Government Actuary on the financial condition of the Social Security Scheme as at 30th September, 1988.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Matters noted - land transactions
THE STATES noted an Act of the
Finance and Economics Committee dated 2nd February, 1990, showing that in pursuance
of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved -
(a) as recommended by the Public Works
C o m mittee, the sub-lease to the
C i t izens Advice Bureau of
8 9 6 square feet of office
a c c ommodation at 15 Broad Street,
S t . Helier, with effect from the
1 s t January, 1990 at an annual
r e n t of #7,607.50;
( b) as recommended by the Resources R e c overy Board, the purchase from M r s. May Marguerite Norman, née H am on, of an area of land
m ea suring 131.86 square feet in
F ield 353, St. Brelade, for
# 1 3 1.86, required in connexion
w it h a washout valve chamber as
p a r t of the foul sewer extension
t o C orbiere, with the Board being
r e sp onsible for all legal fees;
( c) as recommended by the Agriculture a n d Fisheries Committee, the lease
t o t he Royal National Lifeboat
I n s titute of an agricultural shed
a t L a Grande Maison,
S t . Catherine, free of charge, for
a p e riod of 21 years, commencing
1 s t May, 1990, required to house
t h e Island's new Atlantic 21 l if e boat;
( d) as recommended by the Agriculture a n d Fisheries Committee, the
r e n ewal of the lease to Mr. Philip
P e r chard of 9.31 vergées of land
a t L a Grande Maison, St. Catherine
f o r a period of one year
c o m mencing 25th December, 1989 at a r e nt of #116;
( e) as recommended by the Housing C o m mittee, the granting in
p e r petuity to The Jersey
E l e ctricity Company Limited, free
o f c harge, of a servitude at Le
D o uet Clement, required for high t e ns ion cables;
( f) as recommended by the Housing
C o m mittee, with the support of the I s la nd Development Committee, the p u r chase from Mrs. Elizabeth Mary P i c ot, née Pasturel of Field 355A,
G ro uville, for a consideration of
# 1 9 7,752, required for the
c o n struction of 18 Category A'
h o u ses, and the purchase from Mrs. E l in Dorothy Le Ruez, née Malzard,
o f a n access strip on the western
s id e of Field 355B, Grouville , for
a c o nsideration of #32,500, with
t h e Committee being responsible
f o r the payment of legal fees.
Matters noted - financial transactions
THE STATES noted Acts of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 2nd February, 1990, showing that in pursuance of Rule 5 of the Public Finances (General) (Jersey) Rules 1967, as amended, the Committee had noted that -
( a) the Housing Committee had accepted t h e lowest of six tenders, namely
t h at submitted by A.C. Mauger
L i m ited in the sum of #533,734 in
a c o ntract period of 45 weeks for
t h e construction of 2 three-
b e d roomed and 4 two-bedroomed
t e rr aced houses and 3 two- b e d roomed flats on the site of 9- 1 3 Windsor Road, St. Helier;
( b) the Housing Committee had accepted t h e lowest of four tenders, namely
t h at submitted by Thatcher Limited
i n t he sum of #2,097,000 in a
c o n tract period of 80 weeks for
t h e provision of 40 units of
a c c ommodation for the infill
s c h eme at Le Marais, St. Clement.
Matters lodged
The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Building loans: extension of s c h eme. P.18/90.
P r e sented by Senator Richard J o s eph Shenton.
2 . Abbeyfield Jersey Society: further l oan. P.19/90.
P r e sented by the Finance and
E c o nomics Committee.
3 . Urban sites: purchase for
r e si dential development. P.20/90. P r e sented by the Policy and
R e s ources Committee.
4 . Draft Sea-Fisheries (Size Limits) ( A m endment No. 2) (Jersey)
R e g ulations 199 . P.21/90.
P r e sented by the Agriculture and F i s heries Committee.
5 . Draft Public Finances
( A d ministration) (Amendment No. 5) (J e rsey) Law 199 (P.15/90):
a m e ndment. P.22/90.
P r e sented by Senator Dereck André
C a r ter.
States Sitting 3rd April 1990
THE STATES decided to meet on 3rd April, 1990 instead of 10th April, Holy Week.
Arrangement of Public Business for next Sitting on 27th February, 1990
THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe should be considered at the next Sitting on 27th February, 1990 -
Queen's Road/Rouge Bouillon junction: roundabout. P.13/90. Lodged: 30th January 1990. Island Development Committee.
Draft Public Finances
(Administration) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 199 . P.15/90.
Lodged: 30th January 1990.
Finance and Economics Committee.
Building loans: extension of scheme. P.18/90.
Lodged: 13th February 1990. Senator R.J. Shenton.
Abbeyfield Jersey Society: further loan. P.19/90.
Lodged: 13th February 1990. Finance and Economics Committee.
Urban sites: purchase for residental development. P.20/90. Lodged: 13th February 1990. Policy and Resources Committee.
Draft Sea-Fisheries (Size Limits) (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P.21/90.
Lodged: 13th February 1990. Agriculture and Fisheries
Committee.
Draft Family Allowances (No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P.149/89. Lodged: 28th November 1989. Social Security Committee.
Field 232, St. John: rezoning for residential development. P.14/90
THE STATES acceded to the request
of the Vice-President of the Island Development Committee that consideration of the Proposition regarding the rezoning for residential development of Field 232, St. John, be deferred from the present Sitting.
Report by Study Group on Benefits
to Working Party on Need. Question and answer
Deputy Shirley Margaret Baudains
of St. Helier asked Deputy John Le Gallais of St. Saviour , Vice-President of the Finance and Economics Committee, the following question -
Is it the intention of the Committee t o present to the States for debate
t he recent report of the Study Group
o n Benefits to the Working Party on
N eed?''
The President of the Finance and Economics Committee replied as follows -
The Working Party on Need at its
m eeting on 19th January completed
c onsideration of the recommendations c ontained in the report of the Study
G roup on benefits, having received the c omments of various committees and
o ther interested parties on the
r eport. The Working Party has now
r equested its officers to prepare a
d raft report to the States for
c onsideration at its next meeting.''
Examination fees and independent private schools. Questions and answers
Senator John Stephen Rothwell asked the Connétable of St. Lawrence, President of the Education Committee, the following questions -
Q uestion 1
Will the President explain to the
H ouse why it has been decided that
w hilst parents of pupils at the
C olleges will not in future be
r equired to pay examination fees, this a rrangement is not to apply to pupils
a ttending independent private schools, e .g. Beaulieu Convent, De La Salle
C ollege?''
The President of the Education Committee replied as follows -
The grant made by the Education
C ommittee to Beaulieu Convent and De L a Salle College already includes an
e lement for the support of payment of e xamination fees.
A s a result of the Committee's
d ecision to remove the charge for
e xamination fees in non fee paying
s chools and to incorporate charges
i nto the annual fees of Jersey College f or Girls and Victoria College, the
l evel of support for examination costs a t Beaulieu and De La Salle will be
a utomatically raised to the same level a s for Jersey College and Victoria
C ollege by 1991. That is to say a
p upil in Beaulieu or De La Salle will a ttract the same support in respect of e xamination fees as in the two
c olleges.
T he House should understand, however, t hat it is the governors' prerogative
t o decide how to spend the grant.
I and some members of the Education
C ommittee had a very constructive
m eeting with the head teachers of
B eaulieu and De La Salle and a
r epresentative of the parents on
T hursday, 8th February, to see whether
t here were ways in which the Committee m ight assist should the governors wish
t o adopt the policy of the Education
C ommittee in 1990. The governors of
t he two schools are to consider the
m atter in the near future.''
S upplementary questions and answers
S enator Rothwell - Members might
f ind the answer to be very ambiguous
a nd therefore they must try and
c omprehend what the actual policy is
o r whether it has changed since the
a nnouncement a couple of weeks ago. Do I take it now that although fees are
s crapped including the colleges as was
a nnounced, that in fact you are now
g oing to compensate by increasing the
f ees at those colleges?''
P resident, Education Committee -
Yes. The system that has been for
q uite some time is that there was in
t he element of the grant for the
n on fee paying schools there was
a lways an element that was allowed for f or examination fees and whilst we had O' levels and A' levels the grant
a llowed was #4 per subject for each
p upil. When we considered the matter
e arlier after the GCSE was introduced
t he fees for each examination were
s ubstantially higher. The Education
C ommittee decided to continue to allow
# 4 per subject and we considered it
r ecently and thought that as the
n on fee paying schools pupils don't
p ay for any other part of their
e ducation and it seemed to us that it
w as putting a great burden on some of
t he parents to be expected to pay the
i ncreased amount. So we decided that
r eally as the education for the non
f ee paying schools was free in every
o ther aspect we felt that the
e xamination fees should not be
c harged. That meant that we then
d ecided that in future the grant made
t o fee paying schools we look at the
t otal cost of what it costs for each
p upil to be educated and we then grant u p to 50 per cent of the total cost to
t he fee paying schools and in that
a mount we are including the
e xamination fees because its two book- k eeping exercises which is costly in
a dministration. For the colleges for
i nstance the Education Committee
c ollects the fees for the school terms
a nd we also then had to bill for the
e xamination fees so we are going to
i nclude that as from next year in the
w hole amount. Now the Committee
p robably were over generous they
d ecided that having heard all the
a rguments for doing that they said
w ell let's scrap it this year. Now we
m et with the heads of both De La Salle a nd Beaulieu and they understood that
u p to presently 30 per cent of the
g rant that we gave them was towards
e xamination fees. Now as has been said a nd I will repeat, we do not interfere
i n the way that they run their schools
o r the charges they make and they have
n ot been passing on that 30 per cent
t o the parents so in fact the parents
o f Beaulieu and De La Salle have been p aying the full examination fees and
d id so even when GCSE was introduced l ast year so that then parents were
p aying the whole amount. Now we have s aid, as I have said in my reply, if
t hese schools decide to adopt the same p olicy as Victoria College and De La
S alle obviously the parents will not
b e paying the full amount and if the
g overnors of the schools decide to do
t hat we have said that if they state
t hat is their policy we could help
t hem this year because what we are
t alking about is the difference
b etween 30 per cent and 50 per cent so t hat it is entirely up to the
g overnors to choose whether they want t o continue to charge parents for
e xamination fees or absorb that amount i n their school fees.''
S enator Rothwell - I thank the
P resident very much and I am sure that M embers have swallowed the clarity in w hich the President tried to explain
t he ambiguities contained in the
a nswer. I am still as perplexed as
b efore if not worse. I really can't
t ake this up right now; to say that 30
p er cent of the 50 per cent grant was
t aken up with examination fees seems a n extraordinary statement to make.
T he President appears to have gone to e xtraordinary lengths to explain what
r eally is a very small problem. Would n ot the President agree that such a
d evisive policy is offensive to
p arents and students and the actual
c osts involved is about #20,000 in a
b udget of #50 million. Why can't she
s imply stand up and say let's scrap
t he lot, don't charge examination
f ees, encourage people to take them; they are costing #15 per
e xamination?''
P resident, Education Committee - If f or instance we were going to scrap
e ducation fees we would need to come b ack to the House to ask the House if t hey agree that we could increase the g rant to the independent fee paying
s chools. The States decided that the g rant should be at 50 per cent. Now if S enator Rothwell wants us to increase
t hat we would need to come back to the H ouse, and I suggest perhaps that he
w ould like to bring a Proposition to
s uggest that, but the amount of money w e are talking about - we met with the h eads of both schools - if they agree
t hat they will adopt the same policy
w e are talking about probably #2 per
e xamination extra. Now if they want to d o that we even said we do believe the a mount is so small for this year that
w e will find the money but as from
n ext year everyone will be treated the
s ame who go to fee paying schools.''
D eputy E.J. Becquet - In view of the
r eply of the President of Education
t he second paragraph of her reply to
t he original question, would she not
a gree that the parents of children,
e specially in view of the publicity
w hich accompanied the decision of that C ommittee not to charge examination
f ees, would she not agree that parents
o f children at the colleges had been
m isinformed if in fact the amount to
w hich they are going to be allowed is
g oing to be incorporated in their rise
n ext year?''
P resident, Education Committee - We h ave not had any of the parents of
V ictoria College or the Girls' College
q uestioning it. The point is the total
a mount will increase, the grant will
b e larger because the children who are i n the non fee paying schools will not
b e paying for examination fees so the
c ost to the Education will increase
a nd then when that cost is worked out 5 0 per cent of the cost for each pupil
i n secondary education is grant aided
t o the fee paying schools so in fact
t here will be an increased grant.''
S enator Rothwell - The President in r eply stated that she had no reaction f rom the colleges - would that be
b ecause perhaps the parents of pupils a ttending the colleges perhaps have m ore money than those hard working p arents, seriously, there are an awful l ot of hard working parents who are f urious at the discrimination as a
r esult of this policy decision?''
P resident, Education Committee -
That is not the impression we got
f rom the heads. The head teachers of
b oth De La Salle and Beaulieu said
t hat the Evening Post had misreported
t he whole thing and caused this
p roblem. They were very concerned.
T hey said they understand perfectly
t hat they are in receipt of a grant
w hen it might interest Members to know t hat the fees currently at De La Salle
a nd Beaulieu are #1,080 and the grant
t hat they receive is #1,086 per pupil.
N ow as I have said and I will repeat
w e met both the heads who were going
b ack and were going to call meetings
w ith their governors and they were
h oping to be able to come back very
q uickly to tell us that they could see
t heir way forward so as to treat the
p arents of their schools exactly the
s ame as the other fee paying schools
a nd if they do that we are able to
a ssist the difference this year but as
I repeat next year every pupil in fee
p aying schools will be treated exactly
t he same.''
S enator B. Brooke - If I have a
d aughter at the Girls' College do I
u nderstand that the examination fees f or my daughter at the Girls' College w ill not be billed to me?''
P resident, Education Committee -
That's right. The grant will allow
f or 50 per cent, now what the schools d ecide to do will I hope be that they
w ill not be charging. Obviously there w ill be some parents who will be
c oncerned if for instance their
c hildren are not sitting these
e xamination fees they will be paying s lightly more in school fees to
a ccommodate those that do. But I
b elieve that the parents that send
t heir children to the colleges or De
L a Salle or Beaulieu hope that their
c hildren will be sitting exams and so i t will be spread over the whole
s chool fees.''
S enator Brooke - So that if I have a d aughter at the Girls' College I will h ave an extra added to my school fees t o pay for the fees of all children
s itting examinations at the Girls'
C ollege. Secondly, if I have a
d aughter at Beaulieu I may or may not b e billed for my school fees according t o what the governors decide. Whether t hey decide to take the additional
g rant and use it for the payment of
s chool fees from the school or else
t hey will decide to bill me for my
d aughter at Beaulieu and therefore it
i s up to the parents, teachers of
B eaulieu and the Girls' College to see t he position with their head teachers.
I s that what the position is? It was
n ot clear to me but now if the
P resident would confirm that, I am
h appy?''
P resident, Education Committee -
What we are hoping, Senator, is that
t he governors both of De La Salle and B eaulieu will adopt the same procedure w hich will apply at the colleges. Now
i f they can come back and say that is
t heir decision we have to be able to
h elp them this year with the small
a mount of money that is involved.''
S enator R.J. Shenton - The statement b y the President is that it has been
m isinterpreted and interpreted in a
w ay which has caused a great deal of c oncern Senator Rothwell is right. I
b elieve that the President of
E ducation's policy is heading in the
r ight direction and I think that a
s tatement to the paper not in the
p ublic notices but spend a bit of
m oney and get it in a prominent place
o utlining what is your policy on this m atter should be done. My view has
a lways been and I say this to the
P resident, would she not agree that
p arents who pay fees are in some ways h elping the finances of the States
b ecause they are paying something out t owards to the education. I believe
a nd I ask the President if she will
n ot consider perhaps that that sum
r ather like BUPA should be allowable f or a tax refund, bearing in mind the
u se that was made of that money. But e qually on this matter I share and
s upport her that what she is trying to
d o is be fair to both sides and to
p rovide that both sides will pay
e xamination fees and bearing in mind t hat the grant is based on half of the c ost then next year they will get half t he cost of those examination fees
w hether they are at De la Salle,
B eaulieu or anywhere else. Is that not r ight?''
P resident, Education Committee -
Yes Senator, thank you, you have
u nderstood what I have been trying to
e xplain and I am grateful. When we met w ith the teachers we met with a
r epresentative of the parents and he
p romised in his newsletter to give the
f ull explanation to the parents but
c ertainly I hope that we will be able
t o clear this matter up and if we can
g et the Evening Post perhaps to
c learly state what our intention is I
w ill be grateful because I don't think
w hat was in the Evening Post on Friday w as helpful to anyone.''
Senator Rothwell Q uestion 2
Will the President inform the House
o f the percentage of the Island's
s chool pupils who attend independent p rivate schools.''
President, Education Committee
The percentage of the Island's
s chool pupils attending independent p rivate schools as at 20th January
1 990 was 20.74 per cent.''
Royal Hampshire Regiment -
authority to march with colours flying, drums beating and bayonets fixed'' in Jersey
THE STATES, adopting a Proposition
of the Defence Committee, agreed to give authority to the Royal Hampshire Regiment to exercise the privilege of marching
with colours flying, drums beating and bayonets fixed'' in Jersey.
Guard House, Government House:
extension
THE STATES, adopting a Proposition of the Public Works Committee -
( a) approved Drawings Nos. 894514 and 8 94515 showing the demolition of
t h e extension to the Guard House,
G o vernment House, St. Saviour's
H il l, St. Saviour and the
c o n struction of a new extension;
( b) authorised the Greffier of the
S t a tes to sign the said Drawings
o n behalf of the States.
Rents of commercial property: control P.143/89
THE STATES commenced consideration of a Proposition of Senator Corrie Stein regarding the control of rents of commercial property.
THE STATES, having accepted amendments of Deputy Edgar John Becquet of Trinity that after the words to consider'', there
should be inserted the words the
advisability or not'' and the deletion
after the word ways'' of the words and means'', adopted the Proposition as amended and asked the Policy and Resources
Committee to consider the advisability or
not of ways of controlling commercial rents and to report to the States with recommendations in due course.
Sea-Fisheries (Fishing Nets) (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 1990. P.9/90
THE STATES, in pursuance of
Articles 2 and 5 of the Sea Fisheries (Jersey) Law 1962, as amended, made Regulations entitled the Sea-Fisheries (Fishing Nets) (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 1990.
Public Works Committee and
Resources Recovery Board (Amalgamation) (Jersey) Act 1990. P.10/90
THE STATES commenced consideration
of a Proposition of the Policy and
Resources Committee and adopted paragraph (a), and in pursuance of Article 29 of the States of Jersey Law 1966, made an Act entitled the Public Works Committee and Resources Recovery Board (Amalgamation) (Jersey) Act 1990. Consideration of paragraph (b) was deferred until the next Sitting.
Members present voted for paragraph (a) as follows -
P o u r' ' (36)
Senators
S henton, Binnington, Horsfall, Ellis, B aal, Rothwell, Le Main, Le Maistre, C arter, Stein.
Connétable s
S t. Peter, St. Helier , St. Lawrence, S t. Ouen, Trinity , St. Martin ,
G rouville.
Deputies
d e la Haye(H), le Gallais(S),
R oche(S), Trinity , Vandervliet(L), R.
R umboll(H), Wavell(H), Blampied(H), B illot(S), Norman(C), St. Martin ,
C . Rumboll(H), Le Sueur(H),
C outanche(L), Jordan(B), St. Mary,
B ailhache(H), Rabet(H), Baudains(H).
C o n t re'' (10)
Senator
B rooke.
Connétable s
S t. Mary, St. Brelade.
Deputies
B eadle(B), St. John, St. Peter,
B audains(C), St. Ouen, Huelin(B), G rouvillle.
Bus service: free travel for pensioners. P.11/90
THE STATES, adopting a Proposition
of the Defence Committee, approved the continuation of financial assistance to J.M.T. (1987) Limited so as to provide free
travel on the buses for Jersey residents of pensionable age and Health Insurance Exception (H.I.E.) card holders, such assistance to be altered annually in accordance with the Jersey Cost of Living Index.
Draft Health and Safety at Work (Inquiries Procedure) (Jersey) Regulations 1990. P.12/90
THE STATES commenced consideration of the draft Health and Safety at Work (Inquiries Procedure) (Jersey) Regulations 1990 (lodged on 30th January 1990) and adopted the Preamble and Regulations 1 to 7.
Regulation 8 was adopted, the States having accepted an amendment of the Social Security Committee that the following paragraph be substituted for Regulation 8 -
P o wers of inspection
8 . The appointed person, and any persons appointed to assist him in the inquiry, may, where necessary for the purposes of the inquiry, at any reasonable time enter any premises to which the inquiry relates and for those purposes inspect the premises and any thing on or in them.''
Regulations 9, 10 and 11 were adopted.
The Regulations were adopted, as amended, and lodged in Second Reading (P.23/90).
THE STATES rose at 4.15 p.m.
R .S . G R A Y Deputy Greffier of the States.