States Minutes 13th March 1990

STATES MINUTES 1 3 t h M arch, 1990 P r ic e : # 1 .5 0

 THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 13th March, 1990 at 9.30 a.m. under

  the Presidency of the Deputy Bailiff ,

V e rnon Amy Tomes, Esquire

_ _ _ _________

All Members were present with the exception of -

S enator Bernard Thomas Binnington -

o ut of the Island.

J ohn Pepin Le Sueur, Connétable of St. J ohn - out of the Island.

M argaret Sylvia Rose Beadle, Deputy of S t. Brelade - out of the Island.

 H enri Léon Dubras, Deputy of St.

M artin - out of the Island.

A lan Payn Bree, Deputy of Grouville -

o ut of the Island.

_ _ _ _ _ _______

 P rayers read by Deputy Greffier _ _ _ _ _ _______

Deputy R.P. Clarke-Halifax of St. Saviour - welcome

The Deputy Bailiff , on behalf of

Members of the States, welcomed to the Assembly the newly elected Deputy of St. Saviour (No. 2 District), Mr. Richard Peter Clarke-Halifax.

Distinguished visitors - welcome

The Deputy Bailiff welcomed to the States The Honourable Abdullah Hameed, Minister of Atolls Administration and Minister for Cultural Affairs, and his Private Aide, Mr. Adam Moosa, from the Republic of the Maldives.

Subordinate legislation tabled

The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -

 1 .  Import and Export (Control)

( A m endment No. 4) (Jersey) Order 1 9 9 0. R & O 8035.

 2 .  Road Traffic (Public Parking

P l a ces) (Amendment No. 14)

( J er sey) Order 1990. R & O 8036.

 3 .  Road Traffic (Saint Helier)

( A m endment No. 8) (Jersey) Order 1 9 9 0. R & O 8037.

 4 .  Road Traffic (Saint Martin)

( A m endment) (Jersey) Order 1990. R

&   O 8038.

Education Committee: appointment of member

THE STATES appointed Deputy Percy John Le Masurier of St. Ouen as a member of the Education Committee.

House Committee: appointment of member

THE STATES appointed Senator Betty Brooke as a member of the House Committee.

Public Services Committee: appointment of member.

THE STATES appointed Deputy

Richard Peter Clarke-Halifax of St. Saviour as a member of the Public Services Committee.

Public Lotteries: report for 1989. R.C.4

The Gambling Control Committee by

Act dated 8th March 1990, presented to the States a report on public lotteries promoted and conducted by the Channel Islands Lottery Committee for 1989. THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.

Regulation of Undertakings and Development Law: quarterly manpower returns. R.C.5

The Finance and Economics

Committee by Act dated 19th February 1990, presented to the States a report covering

the quarterly manpower returns provided under Article 2A of the Regulation of Undertakings and Development (Jersey) Law 1973, as amended, for the quarters ending 30th September and 31st December 1989.

THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.

Dwelling Houses Loan Fund: statement for 1989. R.C.6

The Housing Committee by Act dated

2nd March 1990, presented to the States a statement showing the financial position of the Dwelling Houses Loan Fund as at 31st December 1989.

THE STATES ordered that the said statement be printed and distributed.

Building Loans - extension of

scheme (P.18/90): Housing Committee report. P.32/90

The Housing Committee by Act dated 5th March 1990, presented to the States a report on the proposition of Senator Richard Joseph Shenton that the Building Loans Scheme should be extended.

THE STATES ordered that the report be printed and distributed.

Jersey Electricity Company

Limited: Directors' report and accounts for 1989

The Finance and Economics

Committee by Act dated 2nd February 1990, presented to the States the Jersey

Electricity Company Limited Directors'

report and accounts for 1989.

Matters noted - land transactions

THE STATES noted an Act of the

Finance and Economics Committee dated 5th March 1990, showing that in pursuance of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved -

 ( a) as recommended by the Harbours and A  ir port Committee, the lease to

C o n dor Jersey Limited for a

f u rt her period of nine years from

1 s t April, 1990, of its office

a c c ommodation on the Albert Pier,

( d e signated Letting A24),

m  ea suring 1,236 square feet, at an

a n n ual rent of #5,562, and with

a n n ual rent reviews in line with

t h e Jersey Cost of Living Index;

 ( b) as recommended by the Resources R e c overy Board, and in connexion w  it h the construction of pumping

s ta t ion No. 2 and the air valve

c h a mber for the Corbiere Foul

S e w er Extension, the purchase of

l a nd from the undermentioned

o w  ners at the rate of #1 a square

f o o t with the Board being

r e sp onsible for the payment of all

l e ga l fees involved in the

t ra n saction -

( i) a n area of 729.8 square feet

o f l a n d in Field 422, St.

B r e l ad e, as shown on Drawing N  o . 4 60/3B, from Associated I n v e st ment Trust Limited;

( ii )  a n area of 1,657.5 square fe e t o f l a nd in Field

4 2 2 , S t. B relade, as

sh o w  n o n Drawing 460/3B fr o m M  r. David James Le B o u ti l li e r, Mrs. Maureen

A n n R o n del, née Le

B o u ti l li e r, Mrs. Anna

L u c a s C a bot, née Le

B o u ti l li e r, Mr. Edward

Jo h n L e Boutillier, Mr.

B r ia n L e Boutillier and

M r . D o n ald Edward Le

B o u ti l li e r;

( ii i)  an area of 1,569.6 square fe e t i n F i eld 422, St.

B r el a d e , as shown on

D r a w i n g No. 460/3B, from M r s . M  a rguerite Le

B o u ti l li e r Le Gresley,

n ée B e n e st;

( iv )  a n area of 183 square

fe e t o f l a nd in Field

3 9 8 , S t. B relade, as

sh o w  n o n Drawing No.

4 6 0 /6 A  , from Mr. David

Ja m  e s L e Boutillier, Mrs. M a u r e e n Ann Rondel, née L e B  o u ti llier, Mrs. Anna

L u c a s C a bot, née Le

B o u ti l li e r, Mr. Edward

Jo h n L e Boutillier, Mr.

B r ia n L e Boutillier and

M r . D o n ald Edward Le

B o u ti l li e r.

Matters lodged

The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -

 1 .  Draft Act with regard to the

p r o vision of a minimum income for e l ec ted Members of the States.

P . 2 9/90.

P r e sented by the Legislation

C o m mittee.

 2 .  Victoria Pier surfacing: transfer

o f f unds. P.30/90.

P r e sented by the Harbours and

A  ir port Committee.

 3 .  Draft  Data Protection

( R e gulation  of

F i n ancial  Services,  etc.)

( S u bject  Access  Exemption)

( A m endment) (Jersey) Regulations 1 9 9 . P.31/90.

P r e sented by the Finance and

E c o nomics Committee.

 4 .  Draft Milk Marketing Scheme

( A m endment No. 8) (Jersey) Act 1 9 9 . P.33/90.

P r e sented by the Agriculture and

F i s heries Committee.

 5 .  Housing Committee: vote of no c o n fidence. P.34/90.

P r e sented by Senator C. Stein.

 6 .  The Limes Hospital development: S t a ge 2. P.35/90.

P r e sented by the Public Health

C o m mittee.

Draft Public Finances

(Administration) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law, 199 . P.28/90. Withdrawn

THE STATES noted that the

President of the Finance and Economics Committee had withdrawn the draft Public Finances (Administration) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 199  (amended and lodged au Greffe'' in Second Reading on 27th February 1990).

Arrangement of Public Business for next Sitting on 27th March 1990.

THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe should be considered at the next Sitting on 27th March 1990 -

E ntry Controls for visitors to J ersey. P.16/89.

L odged: 14th February 1989. D eputy M.C. Buesnel of St. H elier.

D ental benefit and services: i ntroduction. P.16/90.

L odged: 30th January 1990. S ocial Security Committee.

B uilding loans: extension of s cheme. P.18/90.

L odged: 13th February 1990. S enator R.J. Shenton.

D raft Act with regard to the

p rovision of a minimum income for e lected Members of the States.

P .29/90.

L odged: 13th March 1990.

L egislation Committee.

V ictoria Pier surfacing:

t ransfer of funds. P.30/90. L odged: 13th March 1990. H arbours and Airport

C ommittee.

D raft Data Protection

( Regulation of Financial Services, e tc.) (Subject Access Exemption)

( Amendment) (Jersey) Regulations, 1 99 . P.31/90.

L odged: 13th March 1990.

F inance and Economics

C ommittee.

D raft Milk Marketing Scheme

( Amendment No. 8) (Jersey) Act 199 . P .33/90.

L odged: 13th March 1990.

A griculture and Fisheries

C ommittee.

H ousing Committee: vote of no c onfidence. P.34/90.

L odged: 13th March 1990.

S enator C. Stein.

T he Limes Hospital

d evelopment: Stage 2. P.35/90. L odged: 13th March 1990.

P ublic Health Committee.

Housing Committee: vote of no confidence. P.34/90

THE STATES decided to give consideration to the proposition of Senator Corrie Stein regarding a vote of no confidence in the Housing Committee as the first item of matters lodged under Public Business at the next Sitting.

Housing Committee: security/caretakers in high rise flats. Question and answer

Deputy Patricia Ann Bailhache of

St. Helier asked Deputy Hendricus Adolphus Vandervliet of St. Lawrence, President of the Housing Committee, the following question -

  Will the President inform the House  w hen security systems or caretakers  w ill be installed in the blocks of

 h igh rise flats owned by the Housing  C ommittee?''

The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -

  The Housing Committee has no plans  t o re-introduce resident caretakers in

 its high rise blocks of flats. It has,

o ver the last ten years, steadily

 p hased out resident caretakers and

 r eplaced them with mobile caretakers

o perating from a central depôt in

o rder to make more efficient use of

 l imited manpower resources.

A dditional security measures on some h ousing estates, particularly those

w ith high rise flats, could be met by

t he employment of more resident

c aretakers whose main responsibility

w ould be security. As such duties

w ould extend overnight and through

w eekends and bank holidays, this could r epresent a two to threefold increase

i n the caretaker manpower requirements a nd is, therefore, not considered a

v iable option.

A few years ago, the Housing Committee s et up a Working Party on the needs of

t he elderly at risk, which concurred

w ith the view that the appointment of

r esident caretakers did not provide

t he answer to the problems of the

e lderly living in high rise flats. The

w orking party rather took the view

t hat the introduction of dispersed

a larm systems for those in need of

t hem could provide a far better

s olution, and the possibility of

i ntroducing these for the elderly at

r isk in both the public and private

h ousing sectors is currently being

e xamined in detail by the Public

H ealth Committee. We are awaiting the f indings of Public Health.

T he Housing Committee has successfully i nstalled security door-entry phone

s ystems in many low rise blocks of

f lats over the last ten years. The

i nstallation of such systems for high

r ise blocks of flats has initially

p roved unsuccessful, for a number of

r easons, but the Committee is

c urrently working on plans to

i ntroduce a more sophisticated system

a t Hue Court and De Quetteville Court. I n addition, surveillance by video

c amera of vulnerable areas such as

u nderground car parks and communal

e ntrance halls is being considered and m ay be introduced in conjunction with

t he enhanced entry phone system.

T enants on both estates are being

c onsulted prior to the installation,

w hich should proceed within the next

f ew months. The Committee proposes to e xtend these systems to its other high

r ise blocks on a phased basis

f ollowing their successful

i mplementation on the above estates.''

S upplementary questions and answers

D eputy T.J. du Feu - Might I ask a

s upplementary through the Public

H ealth Committee President in regard t o the findings as to when we can

e xpect to have that information,

b ecause I think it's very important in v iew of a lot of the anxiety felt?''

P resident, Public Health Committee -

  I think that we must not get

 c onfused about this. The dispersed

 s ystem will safeguard people who might  h ave an illness or something of that

 d escription whilst living in

 a ccommodation, but it would, of

 c ourse, do nothing for the security

 w hich is what I believe the problem

 r eally is and that must be overcome by

 s ystems other than the dispersement.''

D eputy Bailhache - Does the

P resident not agree that the fear of

v andalism is a great worry and that

m any of our senior citizens and adults w ho live in these flats are most

a nxious and therefore I would ask him, h ow soon does he think that we will

h ave this installation?''

P resident, Housing Committee - I've

a lready said that if we can proceed

u pon a satisfactory method of

p rocedure we will do so in the next

f ew months. I don't altogether agree

w ith the President of Public Health

a nd he should really have had notice

o f a question like that because

a ctually the dispersed alarm system

w ill actually give anyone who is

t hreatened by anything, the

p ossibility of getting help from a

c entral depôt. It can be referred

e ither to fire, it can be referred to

p ublic defence, it could be referred

t o wherever need was needed, but I'm s ure that it wasn't a fair question to

t he President of Public Health. It

w ill need a considerable research into a ll the details. Can I explain, we

a ctually did put an entry-phone system i nto one high rise block of flats and

i t was not satisfactory for the simple

r eason that in this particular one

t here were 52 units and unless the

t enants themselves do not abuse the

s ystem it just needs one tenant to

i nvalidate the system for all the

o thers. Now what we are proposing to d o, what we are experimenting with, or g oing to experiment with is under the h igh rise flats to put a separate

e ntry system on each floor so that it

w ill be much easier then to find out

w ho is abusing the system.''

Cable television. Questions and answers

Senator Richard Joseph Shenton

asked the Connétable of St. Brelade , President of the Broadcasting Committee, the following questions -

Q uestion 1

Will the President explain why no m ention was made in their report of C able T.V.?''

The President of the Broadcasting Committee replied as follows -

  Over the years the Committee has

 r eported on the fact that a licence

 h ad been granted for an experimental

p eriod.

T he Committee wishes to remind Senator S henton that, as stated in previous

r eports, this licence is granted by

t he Telecommunications Board. The

r esponsibility of the Committee is in

c onditions attached to the licence

r egarding programme content, hours of

t ransmission and advertising.

A s there has been no change in the

s ituation, there was nothing the

C ommittee believed it could usefully s ay.''

S upplementary question and answer

S enator Shenton - Would the

P resident not agree as the Committee r esponsible for the interests of the

c onsumer that if they were aware (and i t's my information that they were)

t hat an application had been put in in 1 987, that they should have done

s omething to improve the quality of

s ervices provided to 7,500

s ubscribers, most of them in States'

a ccommodation?''

P resident, Broadcasting Committee - I think this is answered in the

o ther questions.''

Senator Shenton  Q uestion 2

  Is it not a fact that this

 e nvironmental friendly medium has been  e ndeavouring to improve their services

 f or some years without receiving any

 p ositive response from the States?''

President, Broadcasting Committee

  The Committee fully accepts that the

 c ompany has been endeavouring to

 i mprove its service for some time and

 i ndeed has been encouraged to do so by  b oth the Housing and Island

 D evelopment Committees. The proposal  f or an improved service has been

 s upported by my Committee.''

S upplementary question and answer S enator Shenton - Does the President n ot agree that three years to wait is

a long time?''

P resident, Broadcasting Committee - Yes. I do agree, but we have been

 w aiting for the Telecommunications

 B oard to grant the licence.''

Senator Shenton  Q uestion 3

  In view of the improved service that  c an be provided to the public, will

 t he President give an assurance that a  d ecision will soon be made?''

President, Broadcasting Committee

  The Committee is not in a position

 t o give such an assurance, as this

 d ecision will be taken by the

 T elecommunications Board. However, I  u nderstand that the President of the

 B oard is to make a statement to the

 H ouse as soon as he has received

 a dvice from the Attorney General.''

Women's Civil Service pension benefits. Questions and answers

Senator Betty Brooke asked Senator Richard Joseph Shenton, President of the Establishment Committee, the following questions -

Q uestion 1

  Is the Establishment Committee aware  t hat discrimination exists with regard

 t o women's Civil Service pension

 b enefits under the current Public

 E mployees' Retirement Scheme

 l egislation, insofar as the payment of

 b enefits is concerned after the death

o f a woman civil servant?''

The President of the Establishment Committee replied as follows -

  The discrimination to which the

 S enator refers exists only between

m arried female and married male

 e mployees and pensioners. The

 d ifference is that on the death of a

m arried male employee or pensioner a p ension is payable to a widow but, on

 t he death of a married female employee

o r pensioner a pension is only payable

 t o her widower if he can demonstrate

 t hat he was dependent upon her before  h er death.''

S upplementary question and answer

S enator  Brooke - Is it not correct

t hat a widow who receives benefit from a male civil servant's pension does

n ot in any way have to prove that she

i s in need and indeed may be very

w ealthy in her own right but receives

t his automatically?''

S enator Shenton - That is true to

s ay, and that is one of those

o ccasions with which one has full

s ympathy, and Senator Brooke, I know w as on the previous Committee that was l ooking at the changes in the

p ensions, and in fact this is what my

C ommittee has inherited and this is

o bviously an anomaly, and as she will

s ee by the second question, we are

l ooking into it even if it wasn't

l ooked into at that time.''

Senator Brooke  Q uestion 2

  If the answer to question 1 is in

 t he affirmative, what steps is the

 C ommittee going to take to put right  t his apparent injustice?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - The example cited is only one of the

 a nomalies common to the majority of

 t he occupational pension schemes and

 i ndeed many national social security

 s chemes. For example, in most schemes  t he contribution rates for single and

m arried people are the same, but the

 b enefits to which they might be

 e ntitled vary greatly. The

c omplications of seeking to remove the a nomalies from occupational and

n ational pension schemes are enormous. H owever, the Public Employees' Pension S cheme is now the responsibility of

t he Committee of Management recently a ppointed by the House and approved

t here, and I will refer the matter to

t hat Committee for consideration.''

S upplementary question and answer

S enator  Brooke - I am grateful to t he President. Could I ask if he

p ersonally will ensure that he gives h is personal attention to seeing that t his is put right.''

P resident, Establishment Committee - I always try to give my personal

 a ttention to any matters raised by

 t his House.''

Treasurer of the States: salary. Questions and answers

Senator Betty Brooke asked Senator Richard Joseph Shenton, President of the Establishment Committee, the following questions -

Q uestion 1

  How much longer has the present  h older of the office of Treasurer of  t he States to serve before

 r etirement?''

The President of the Establishment Committee replied as follows -

  Fifteen months.''

 S upplementary question and answer

S enator Brooke - If this salary

i ncrease enhances the pension of the Treasurer, is it assessed at one year

o r the average of three years as used t o be the case?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - To the best of my knowledge, there h as been no change in the pension

 r ights; certainly his increased salary

w ill be taken into account to

d etermine the pension on retirement,

a nd I would not think that any member w ould want it to be different to

t hat.''

D eputy R.E.R. Rumboll - Would the P resident not agree that it is in fact

t he best twelve months in the last

t hree years, and he has a choice of

t hat?''

Senator Brooke  Q uestion 2

  Will the President inform the House

o f the amount of the present salary

 p aid to the Treasurer and of the

 a mount of the increase granted to

 b ring the salary to that level?''

President, Establishment Committee

  The salary paid to the Treasurer of  t he States from 1st January this year  i s #56,332 per annum and it will

 r emain at that figure for the whole

 y ear. His former salary would have  b een subject to a cost of living

 i ncrease with effect from 1st June,

 a nd it is anticipated that that would

 h ave increased his previous salary to  j ust under #53,000.''

S upplementary questions and answers

S enator Brooke - I am not quite c lear about that. What was the

T reasurer of the States' 1989

s alary?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - I am sure that I will get it for the

 S enator.''

Senator Brooke  Q uestion 3

  Will the President say what the

 k nock-on effect is likely to be on the  s alaries of other Chief Officers?''

President, Establishment Committee

  The salary for the post of Treasurer

o f the States is subject to cost of

 l iving increases only on 1st January

 e ach year. The salary will only be

 s ubject to further review if and when

 t he differentials and comparisons

 w hich have now been established become  s ignificantly distorted. This is

 c ompletely different from the other

 c hief officers' salaries which are

 s ubject to renegotiation each year.

 T here should not, therefore, be any

 k nock-on effect.''

Senator Brooke  Q uestion 4

  Is the President aware that there is

 c onsiderable public disquiet about the  s ort of increase that has just been

 g ranted?''

President, Establishment Committee

  Now that the public is aware of the  f ull facts it will be evident that the

 i ncrease is not of the magnitude

 s uggested in the recent article in the  J ersey Evening Post.''

S upplementary questions and answers

D eputy M.R. Billot - Is it not true t hat the Treasurer of the States'

s alary was subject to a HAY

e valuation, and if so, what is the

p oint in having to evaluate it in that m anner and now depart from that?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - That is the question I've been

 w aiting for. You won't mind if I

 a nswer it in full? My Committee took

o ffice because of the HAY evaluation

 p rocedure, which under the previous

 C ommittee, again in which Senator Mrs.  B rooke was a member, large increases

 w ere placed before this House,

 a ffecting all civil servants. The

 i ncreases were such that a vote of no

 c onfidence was brought forward but the  C ommittee decided to resign rather

 t han fight the vote of no confidence.

 I t was left, therefore, for the new

 C ommittee to look at the awards, and

t o implement what had been agreed. The

i dea was that one would go forward and

r enegotiate, but quite clearly, a

c ommitment had been made when one went t hrough the details, an we honoured

t hat commitment. Since then, as the

m embers will be aware, we have had

c ost of living increases only for two

y ears, and we have benefited or sought

t o benefit those people who failed to

a chieve any sort of betterment when

t he HAY evaluation worked out. For the

i nformation of members and the public,

t he HAY evaluation provides for a

s ystem whereby certain factors are

t aken into account, and it was found

t hat some 600 employees at the lower

e nd of the scale were, according to

H AY, overpaid for their duties. It was

a lso found that most of those earning

w hat I would term reasonably good

s alaries, were provided with increases

w hich were quite staggering in its

e ffect. It also produced, under the

H AY evaluation scheme, a system

w hereby certain positions in the

S tates, and I'm certain that the House

w ill not want me to mention names, I

d on't think that's what we're in the

b usiness for, but suddenly become that

t he Treasurer of the States in that

r esponsible position that he is, and

b eing entrusted with more work with

t he setting up of the Policy and

R esources Committee, found himself to

b e earning less than he would have

b een if he'd have stayed in his

p revious position. Obviously, HAY has

a different way of looking at the

c ontent of a person's post to that

w hich we in the private sector often

d o; and when the increased

r esponsibilities became aware, we took

a ccount of the increased

r esponsibilities, and using the same

y ardstick as had been used before, we

c ame up with a higher salary. We also

r emoved the Treasurer from it as we

f elt that in the interests of the

H ouse, the way to move forward was, as h ad always been the case, to look at

t he Economic Adviser separately, to

l ook at the Treasurer in that separate

p ost because of the requirements under t he second schedule, and you won't

f ind this under any other Chief

O fficer, the Treasurer has to be

e ither a chartered accountant, an

i ncorporated accountant, a certified

i ncorporate accountant or a Member of t he Association of the Municipal

T reasurers of Accountants, or

e quivalent university qualifications.

W e felt that we were looking to work

f rom there to the point where we were s etting up a system where, whilst

u sing HAY as a guide, we no longer

w ere using them in total, and allowing t hem to determine the salaries of our

e mployees, but rather wrest control of

t hat back to the politician. Now,

t hat's an extremely difficult task;

b ut it's one in which I hope the House

i s satisfied that we are moving in

t hat direction and I will show later

t oday when we propose another

p roposition. But having said that, it

a lways is highly emotive to single out

o ne salary and say we have paid this

m an another #10,000 a year. No-one

e lse gets that said of them whether

t hey are in any public sector or

p rivate sector and therefore, I do not

d efend the salary of this particular

o fficer, but I do say that in the

o pinion of the Committee, the

T reasurer, with his new

r esponsibilities, was worthy of a

h igher salary than that determined by H AY, which was not at the top of the

p ecking order. Now, if that is wrong,

t hen this House quite rightly must not

o nly question the Establishment

C ommittee which is being done today, b ut must also take it upon themselves

t hat if they feel we are moving down

t he wrong road, to do that which was

d one to the previous Committee, and

b ring forward a vote of no confidence

a nd change, no, don't laugh, there's a

l ot of members of this House that have m ade all sorts of statements, and they

d on't serve on many Committees; and I m ust ask them to question why they

d on't. You have to be responsible, you h ave to stand up for the decisions

t hat you make. I'm quite happy for the H ouse to know all the facts and to

d etermine whether they want us to hand

o ver responsibility to HAY in a little

p anel which knows all the answers,

b ecause you can put forward an

a pplication, where, if you know the

H AY procedures, you can emphasise c ertain points and ignore the fact

t hat a job in the eyes of the public

a nd in the eyes of everyone else and

i n the eyes of the service to the

S tates is much more important, and so

o ne merely offers this explanation and I offer it with the intention of

m aking it public knowledge. Yes, we a re trying very hard to change a

s ystem which was thrust upon us,

f orced upon us, and quite frankly, has c aused us a lot of problems.''

D eputy E.J. Becquet - In view of the m ost comprehensive reply to the

q uestion put by the Deputy of St.

S aviour would the President inform the H ouse how long he had to prepare to

a nswer this supplementary question?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - If you are President of a major

 C ommittee I think you should be ready  t o answer at any time and to inform

 t his House and that is what I have

 t ried to do.''

S enator D.A. Carter - To try and

g et away from money for a moment a

s upplementary following the answer on q uestion one which the Treasurer only

a s fifteen months more serve can we

l ook forward to proposals for a

T reasurer designate or has succession

p lanning or grooming already taken

p lace but in any case can the

P resident assure us that we won't have

a repeat of the usual arguments and

h eadlines that we get whenever we make a senior appointment to a States

j ob?''

P resident, Establishment Committee -

  I can only thank Senator Carter who

 a gain was a very valuable member of

 t he previous Establishment Committee

 w hich retired from office. I will say

 t hat certainly I hope that the type of

 d elay that has taken place in

 a ppointments and re-appointments in

 g oing back again does no good

 w hatsoever to this House, but we are

 i n the hands very much of the

 e mploying committees and do not blame E stablishment for some for the delays t hat have taken place in the past.''

HAY evaluation scheme. Questions and answers

Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asked Senator Richard Joseph Shenton, President of the Establishment Committee the following questions -

Q uestion 1

  Would the President give the average  n umber of times that the HAY

 e valuation scheme has been used over  t he past five years to determine a

 c ivil servant's salary?''

Q uestion 2

  Is the HAY Management Consultancy  f ormula used to determine all salaries

 w ithin the Service?''

The President of the Establishment Committee replied as follows -

  To avoid repetition it would be

 h elpful if I could answer the first

 t wo questions together. Job evaluation

 i s a technique for ranking or for

 c omparing the relative size of jobs.

 T he job evaluation technique developed

 b y HAY MSL was the one adopted by the  C ivil Service Joint Council in the

 l ate 1970's and it is still used to

 c ompare jobs within the Civil Service.

 F or each Civil Service pay grade there

 i s a range of HAY job evaluation

 s cores. For example, all jobs having a

 s core within the range 120 to 139

 p oints fall in Grade 4; those with

 s cores in the range 433 to 508 points

 f all in Grade 12. When the scheme was

 f irst introduced all the jobs in the

 C ivil Service were evaluated and thus,

 p laced in the appropriate grade. It is

o nly if it can be demonstrated that

 t here has been a significant change in

 t he job since it was last evaluated,

 t hat it can be re-evaluated again. It

 i s, therefore, only to the extent that

 j obs change significantly that the HAY

 e valuation scheme is used to determine

t he salary for the post. It would take

a great amount of effort to go back

o ver five years evaluation results to

e xtract the average number of changes e ach year. However, last year, out of 1 500 posts in the Civil Service, 77

w ere upgraded and 24 were

d owngraded.''

S upplementary questions and answers

D eputy Buesnel - Do I gather from

t he President's remarks that the

p resent Establishment Committee feels

t hat the management should manage and t hat the affairs of the Civil Service

s hould not be subject to HAY

e valuation?''

P resident, Establishment Committee - I think that was not what the

 q uestion said. The question said that

 H AY is still being used but on the

 q uestion of the first one that

m anagers should manage I believe that t o be the case as far as my Committee i s concerned.''

D eputy R.E.R. Rumboll - Would the

P resident not agree that in fact a

f ull answer to that question would

h ave made it quite clear that the HAY

e valuation technique does not fix

s alaries it is a system for evaluating

t he size and the weight of jobs but it

d oes not put a salary figure on that

a nd I believe that that is a

m isconception in that outside

c onsultants have actually put the

s alary figure on it. The salary figure

a ttached to the jobs is something that

i s subject to negotiation, in the case

o f civil servants in the Civil Service

J oint Council but it is not the job of

t he expert consultant to actually put

f igures to salaries and I think that

i t is that that is sometimes

m isunderstood when referring to HAY.''

P resident, Establishment Committee - I am very grateful to Deputy Rumboll w ho is I know with his professional

 b ackground is an expert at this thing

 a nd certainly what he said is

 c orrect.''

Deputy Buesnel  Q uestion 3

W hat payment, if any, is made for the u se of this system, or was it a once

o nly purchase, and would the President g ive details of the cost to the

S tates?''

President, Establishment Committee

  No payment is made for the use of

 t he HAY system for evaluating jobs

w ithin the Civil Service. Payment is m ade for consultants' services on a

 t ime and expenses basis. As expertise  h as developed within the Service so

 t he need to use its consultants has

 c orrespondingly diminished to the

 e xtent that, this year, the cost

 s hould not exceed about #3,000.''

Questions for the next Sitting - Senator J.S. Rothwell

THE STATES noted the questions to

be asked of the President of the Island Development Committee by Senator John Stephen Rothwell at the next Sitting of the States.

Draft Public Finances

(Administration) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 199 . P.28/90. Statement

The President of the Finance and Economics Committee made a statement in the following terms -

  At its last Sitting, the States

 a pproved certain amendments to the

 P ublic Finances (Administration)

 ( Jersey) Law 199 , together with an

 a mendment of Senator D.A. Carter. The  F inance and Economics Committee fully  a ccepts the spirit of Senator Carter's

 a mendment.

D iscussions have since taken place w ith Senator Carter and the Attorney G eneral and it appears that the

a mendments as agreed by the House,

w ould not in fact, actually carry out

t he intention of the Finance and

E conomics Committee or Senator Carter.

B oth parties have agreed, therefore

t hat, with the permission of the

B ailiff, the amendments as approved

s hould be withdrawn and not submitted f or third reading.

A new amendment to be agreed by the F inance and Economics Committee and S enator Carter is presently being

d rafted by the Law Draftsman and will b e submitted to the House in the

c ourse of the next few weeks.''

Dwelling Houses (Rent Control) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 1989 (Appointed Day) Act 1990

THE STATES, in pursuance of

Article 2 of the Dwelling Houses (Rent Control) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 1989, made an Act entitled the Dwelling Houses (Rent Control) (Amendment No. 5) (Jersey) Law 1989 (Appointed Day) Act 1990.

Rent Control Tribunal: appointment of members

THE STATES, adopting a proposition

of the Housing Committee, appointed, in pursuance of paragraph (1) of Article 3 of the Dwelling Houses (Rent Control) (Jersey) Law, 1946, as amended, the following persons to act as chairman and members of the Rent Control Tribunal until 11th April 1991, namely -

H  en ry Robert Hall , O.B.E., c h a irman

M  r s. Evelyn Mabel Pullin L e s lie Rufus Crapp

T e r ence Lavery

New North Quay: lease of