The official version of this document can be found via the PDF button.
The below content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost, therefore it should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments.
STATES MINUTES 3 r d A p ril 1990 P r ic e : # 1 .0 0
THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 3rd April 1990 at 9.30 a.m. under
the Presidency of the Deputy Bailiff ,
V e rnon Amy Tomes, Esquire
_ _ _ _ ________
All Members were present with the exception of -
S enator Bernard Thomas Binnington -
o ut of the Island.
S enator Anne Baal - out of the Island.
L eonard René Hamel, Connétable of St. C lement - ill.
E dwin Le Gresley Godel, Connétable of S t. Mary - out of the Island.
J ack Roche, Deputy of St. Saviour -
i ll.
M argaret Sylvia Rose Beadle, Deputy of S t. Brelade - out of the Island.
T erence Augustine Le Sueur, Deputy of S t. Helier - out of the Island.
S hirley Margaret Baudains, Deputy of
S t. Helier - ill.
_ _ _ _ _ _______
P r a y e rs
_ _ _ _ _ _______
Subordinate legislation tabled
The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -
1 . Airport Dues (Tariff) (Jersey) O rd er 1990. R & O 8042.
2 . Licensing (Prescribed Forms)
( A m endment) (Jersey) Order 1990. R & O 8045.
3 . Road Traffic (Saint Lawrence)
( J er sey) Order 1990. R & O 8046.
Contingencies vote of credit - Public Health Committee
THE STATES noted an Act of the
Finance and Economics Committee dated 27th March 1990, informing the House that it had made available to the Public Health Committee the sum of #300,000 from the contingencies vote of credit to meet the
cost of the emergency and expected investigation works, relocation of offices
and clinical accommodation and the leasing and furnishing of accommodation for nurses, as a result of evacuating the General
Hospital nurses' home.
Matters lodged
The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Fort Regent ten pin bowling c e n tre: lease. P.45/90.
P r e sented by the Fort Regent D ev elopment Committee.
2 . Constitution of the States:
r e v iew. P.46/90.
P r e sented by Senator Richard J o s eph Shenton.
Arrangement of Public Business for next Sitting on 24th April 1990
THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe should be considered at the next Sitting on 24th April 1990 -
S UPPLY REQUESTS F inance and Economics C ommittee.
D ay care centre, Gorey Village. P .38/90.
L odged: 27th March, 1990.
P ublic Health Committee.
M aternity Hospital premises: c onversion. P.39/90.
L odged: 27th March, 1990. P ublic Health Committee. I ncinerator for hospital waste a nd animal carcasses. P.40/90. L odged: 27th March, 1990.
P ublic Services Committee
S tates capital programme for
1 991. P.41/90.
L odged: 27th March, 1990.
P olicy and Resources Committee.
D raft Act with regard to the
p rovision of a minimum income for e lected Members of the States.
P .42/90.
L odged: 27th March, 1990.
L egislation Committee.
G reen zone: agricultural
s torage buildings. P.44/90.
L odged: 27th March, 1990.
I sland Development Committee.
F ort Regent ten pin bowling c entre: lease. P.45/90.
F ort Regent Development C ommittee.
Field 1007, St. John - reasons for
refusal of development permit. Questions and answers
Deputy David John de la Haye of St. Helier asked the Connétable of St. John, President of the Island Development Committee, the following questions -
Regarding Mr. David Manning's
a pplication to construct 13 houses on
F ield 1007, St. John - refusal has
b een received from the Island
D evelopment Committee, and the main r eason for refusal is because the
f ield is too near to Kosangas (Jersey)
L imited's premises and is in an
e xplosives safeguard area. Will the
P resident inform the House -
Q uestion 1
W hy is it that no public statement
s eems to have been made concerning t his particular area of St John before n ow?''
President, Island Development Committee
Before replying to the Deputy 's
q uestion I should like to make it
c lear that I have an indirect interest
i n this matter in as much as I own the l and on which the Kosangas (Jersey) L imited premises are situated.
I will start my answer by commenting
o n the Deputy 's preamble to his
q uestion which is factually incorrect
a nd thus misleading. The application b y Mr. David Manning to construct, at F ield 1007 St. John, 13 two-storey
d wellings with single garages and
s tandard steel framed storage building w ith service road, etc. registered on
1 2th January 1990 was refused
p ermission on 27th February 1990 for t he following reasons -
1. the proposal is contrary to the
a p p roved Island Plan policy for t h e agricultural priority zone in w h ich there is a presumption
a g a inst new non-agricultural
d e v elopment;
2 . the site lies within the
e x p losives safeguard area and thus
a n y new development would expose t h e occupants to unnecessary
r is k .'
I t is thus untrue to say that the
m ain reason for refusal is because the f ield is too near to Kosangas (Jersey) L imited's premises', and indeed the
f irst reason for refusal is one that,
i n effect, has been consistently
a pplied to Mr. Manning's earlier
p roposals in 1973 and 1975 and
s ubsequent requests for the Committee t o reconsider its decision - that is,
t he Committee's long held and well-
e stablished policies, supported by the H ouse, to prevent the encroachment of d evelopment into open countryside.
I think it is also appropriate that I
e xplain the circumstances of the
s afeguard zone (which is a circular a rea of 300 m radius centred on the l iquid petroleum gas storage plant at t he Kosangas premises).
I n 1981, the Defence Committee
r etained the services of the Major
H azards Assessment Unit of the United K ingdom Health and Safety Executive to u ndertake an assessment of the liquid
p etroleum gas installation at La
C ollette. The Health and Safety
E xecutive recommended, and the Island D evelopment Committee of the day
a dopted, a safeguard zone policy
( based on 600 m radius) around the
J ersey Gas Company's premises at La
C ollette.
S ubsequently, in 1982 the Island
D evelopment Committee commissioned t he Health and Safety Executive to
u ndertake similar assessments of the
G as Works at Tunnell Street and
K osangas at St. John, the former
t ragically coinciding with the fire at
t he Gas Works in March of that year.
In the light of that event, which
g raphically illustrated the
p otentially catastrophic results of a
f ire involving liquefied petroleum
g as, the Island Development Committee w ere particularly sensitive to issues
o f public safety.
T he Health and Safety Executive
a dvised specifically that, within 300 m etres of the liquid petroleum gas
s torage plant, a category of
d evelopment that included housing
e states should not be granted planning p ermission.
A ccordingly, in the light of the
H ealth and Safety Executive's report f or the Kosangas site, from which I q uote ...
T h e Health and Safety Executive
c o n sider that the risks to the
p u b lic from the site are low,
h o w ever we would advise the States
o f J ersey that it would be prudent
n o t to increase the number of
p e o ple exposed to this low
r is k ' .....,
o n 3rd December 1982, the Island
D evelopment Committee decided that
the 300 metre zone should be
e stablished immediately'. It also
r esolved that I should be informed in m y capacity as Connétable of St. John a nd sent a copy of the Health and
S afety Executive's letter, and that
s imilarly Kosangas Limited should be i nformed.
T urning now to question 1, it is clear
t o me that the Committee of the day
c hose not to give widespread publicity
t o the risk assessment because of the
s ensitivity of the matter in the wake
o f the Tunnell Street fire. It did not
w ish to create panic or undue concern
f or what is, after all, in the Health
a nd Safety Executive's own words a
l ow risk'. It thus chose to be
c ircumspect in adopting the
r ecommended policy, which has not had t o be put into effect until Mr.
M anning's application. I have to say
t hat had I been in former Deputy
N orman Le Brocq's shoes at that time,
I would probably have counselled the
s ame advice to my Committee.''
S upplementary questions and answers
S enator J.S. Rothwell - In view
o f the information provided today by t he President, has the Island
D evelopment Committee considered, b earing in mind the shortage, that
p erhaps Kosangas be considered bad n eighbours and moved to a more
a ppropriate site?''
P resident, Island Development C ommittee - No.''
D eputy E.J. Becquet - I seem to
r emember that this matter was brought b efore the House a few years ago.
W ould the President of the Committee i nform the House whether that was so, b ecause I remember going out to see
t hat land, so I believe it was brought
b efore this House. The question, I
t hink there was an appeal by Mr.
M anning for permission to build and
t he matter was brought before the
H ouse?''
P resident, Island Development Commi t tee - I can't be absolutely sure
b ut there have been Review Board cases t o do with the Manning case and the
C ommittees of the day always turned
d own an application for an extension
o f building on the countryside.''
S enator C. Stein - I believe that
w as on a totally different issue and
w ould the President not agree that
w ith the current shortage of housing
a nd with the very much built up area
t hat the Island Development Committee
o ught to have included this part of
l and in P.57?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - This area of land does
n ot have any mains drain servicing and P ublic Health and all the authorities
c oncerned with the health of this
I sland are completely against any
d evelopment where there are no mains d rain facilities.''
S enator R.J. Shenton - In view of
t he dangers that were brought to the
a ttention of the Connétable of St.
J ohn, would he as the owner of the
l and tell the House whether or not
r estrictions have been placed on the
c ommercial usage of other areas of the s ite bearing in mind the dangers to
t he public?''
P resident, Island Development Commi t tee - I will be answering that in
t he next questions but I can assure
t he Senator that the risk, as Health
a nd Safety have explained, is quite
l ow and I work from an office
a djoining the Kosangas plant and I
t ake the view that like a pilot of an
a ircraft, or the captain of a ship, is
a lways more interested in his own
s afety than that of his passengers. I
a m completely satisfied for my own
s afety.''
S enator Rothwell - Would the
P resident consider that Kosangas are b ad neighbours and therefore find
a nother appropriate place for them?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - I would not view
K osangas as bad neighbours in any
o ther way than it is a liquid
p etroleum gas plant there is a hazard, l ow as it may be, which has been
h ighlighted by the Health and Safety E xecutive but other than that during t he years that Kosangas has been at L es Ruettes, there have been no
i ncidents whatsoever.''
S enator P.H. Horsfall - Is it not a
g eneral policy and not in the Island
P lan and I am only going by memory, t hat all LPG activities should in fact
b e relocated at La Collette and
s econdly there is a paragraph on page 2 of the reply, third paragraph down,
i t says - Health and Safety Executive a dvised specifically, that within 300 m etres of the LPG storage plant a
c ategory of development that included h ousing estates should not be granted p lanning permission', what are the
o ther categories or the other types of d evelopment within the categories that s hould be excluded, the implication
b eing that there is more than one?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - As far as I know it is
o nly housing that is included in that c ategory. The question of relocation, m y Committee has not looked at the q uestion of relocation of Kosangas. I k now that there is a wish on their
p art to be relocated and if the Island w as able to offer them space at La
C ollette they would gladly take this p lace and therefore take away the
s ituation of development in that
a rea.''
S enator Shenton - Has any further d evelopment taken place on the
K osangas site since 1982 when the m atter was first highlighted by the
r eport of the Home Office?''
P resident, Island Development Commi t tee - There has been some
d evelopment in that the holding tanks
h ave been changed since that time. The t anks now which hold 100 tonnes of
L PG, 60 of which are underground and 4 0 above ground, that is the only new d evelopment that has taken place there b ut that is on a commercial site and
n o residential accommodation has been a llowed to take place on that site.''
S enator Shenton - Has the capacity
o f the site been increased for the
s torage of LPG since that report in
1 982?''
P resident, Island Development C ommittee - The site has been i ncreased from 60 tonnes to 100 t onnes.''
S enator Rothwell - In view of what
c an only be described as an
e xtraordinary increase in capacity on
t hat site, is it not in fact serious
n ow that real consideration should be g iven to resiting, bearing in mind the v ast numbers of people that attend
d uring the most important part of the d ay B & Q, which is almost opposite?''
P resident, Island Development Commi t tee - The Senator is forgetting
t hat I have said and Health and Safety
E xecutive have said that the risk
e lement on the site at Les Ruettes is
m inimal, it is very low.''
Deputy de la Haye Q uestion 2
Have the residents living near
K osangas (Jersey) Limited filling
p lant been informed at any time in the l ast eight years by the Committee
r egarding possible danger that could
a rise by living nearby to the gas
p lant?''
President, Island Development Committee
Not to my knowledge. The (then)
C hief Fire Officer did take follow up
a ction as a result of the Health and
S afety Executive's report specifically
i n regard to emergency and evacuation p rocedures.
F urthermore Kosangas (Jersey) Limited h ave prepared an on site emergency
p rocedure and also an off site
e mergency plan which has been
c irculated to John Le Sueur and
C ompany Limited, David Dumosch
L imited, B & Q (Retail) Limited,
J ersey Farmers' Trading Union Limited, t he Fire Service and the Accident
P revention Department of Social
S ecurity.''
S upplementary questions and answers
D eputy A.P. Bree - The Senator has d eclared that he has only an indirect i nterest in Kosangas, could he inform t he House if he has either a direct or i ndirect interest in either or any of
t he other commercial activities
m entioned in the answer?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - I'm happy to tell the
D eputy for Grouville that I am
C hairman and Managing Director of John L e Sueur and Company Limited, David D umosch Limited is a tenant of John Le S ueur and Company Limited so is B & Q ( Retail) and so is the Jersey Farmers'
T rading Union, I hold no shares in any
o f those companies.''
S enator Brooke - In the light of the
a nswer to question 1 that there has
b een a substantial increase in the
a rea of storage of the Kosangas plant,
h as a further report from the Health
a nd Safety Executive been asked for, I
a m aware I'm on the Defence Committee, b ut I wonder if this has been done and
t he Island Development Committee's
k nowledge of it?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - No, there has to my
k nowledge not been a second Health and S afety Executive report.''
S enator Rothwell - In view of the f act that the old report
p ointed to a low risk one assumes t herefore the risk has increased in r elation to the capacity increase?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - If there is any increase i n risk, it is well within the
c onfines of the Fire Service of
J ersey's rulings.''
S enator Horsfall - Could we know w hen the increase was granted
p ermission?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - I would have to have n otice of that.''
S enator Shenton - Was it during the p eriod of the present President of the I sland Development Committee?''
P resident, Island Development
C ommittee - I think not, but I will
c onfirm it and I will come back to the H ouse quite happily. I have nothing to h ide, but the questions can be seen to
b e coming from a certain sector of
t his House and I can assure all
m embers that my answers are open and m y answers are in answer to questions p ut by Deputy de la Haye.''
Deputy de la Haye Q uestion 3
In what year was Kosangas (Jersey) L imited first allowed to use Les
R uettes for use as a filling plant and
w hat conditions were imposed by the I sland Development Committee of the d ay?''
President, Island Development Committee
On 21st June 1967, planning
p ermission was granted to Kosangas
( Channel Islands) Limited to establish a small LPG filling plant' at Les
R uettes, St. John subject to the
f ollowing conditions -
1 . That no work is commenced until an a p p lication for development
p e r mission has been submitted and
a D evelopment Permit has been
i ss u ed.
2 . That if no application for
d e v elopment permission is
s u b mitted within 12 months from t h e date hereof this permission
s h a ll cease to have effect.
3 . That the requirements of the
S t a tes of Jersey Fire Service are t o b e fully observed.
4 . That the plans to be submitted in c o m pliance with condition No. 1 i m p osed on this permit should
i n cl ude full details of a screen
f e n ce to be constructed on the
s it e and details of a dense tree
p l an ting screen to shield the
i n st allation from public view.
A development permit was issued on 1 1th January 1968.''
Deputy de la Haye Q uestion 4
Since the Committee has had the area d esignated an explosives safeguard
a rea, how many units of living and
s taff accommodation have been allowed t o be constructed within that area?''
President, Island Development Committee
Since 3rd December 1982, no new
u nits have been constructed. A single
u nit of staff accommodation was
p ermitted in accordance with the
H ealth and Safety Executive's
r ecommendations, at a property known a s Les Ruelles, although this
p ermission was allowed to lapse.''
Deputy de la Haye Q uestion 5
Because of the daily use by many
h undreds of people shopping at B & Q, a gricultural merchants, David Dumosch, t he J.F.T.U. and Kosangas, are there
s igns displayed warning the public of
t he risk, albeit slight, of a liquid
g as explosion occurring?''
President, Island Development Committee
There are no smoking signs' and no u nauthorised entry signs' placed
a round the Kosangas compound. There is a fully automatic alarm system warning
t he public in all the business
p remises operating at Les Ruettes. The
e xercises are held on two or three
o ccasions during the year as exercises
f or safety.''
S upplementary question and answer
S enator Rothwell - Did they
i nvolve members of the public?''
P resident, Island Development C ommittee - Yes.''
Deputy de la Haye Q uestion 6
Is the Committee really saying that t his is the principal reason for
r efusing a permit to construct 13
S tates loan houses on Field 1007, St. J ohn?''
President, Island Development Committee
No. As a simple reading of the n otice to refuse permission will s how.''
Social Security pensions. Questions and answers
Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of
St. Helier asked Deputy Leonard Norman of St. Clement , President of the Social Security Committee, the following questions -
Q uestion 1
Would the President say if it is his
C ommittee's intention in the near
f uture to discontinue the practice of
r educing a pension benefit enjoyed by a wife in her own right from any
s ickness, disability or invalidity
a llowance made to the husband or vice v ersa?''
President, Social Security Committee A personal pension enjoyed by a wife i n her own right is not reduced if her
h usband is in receipt of sickness,
d isability or invalidity benefit. A
m arried man is entitled to claim a
d ependancy increase in his pension if
h is wife is claiming no other
c ontributory benefit.
W here there is an overlap between a
w ife's personal pension and the
c laiming of a dependancy increase by
t he wife's husband in respect of her,
t hen the most advantageous payment of b enefit is made.
M y Committee is currently actively
c onsidering the possibility of
removing the married woman's option n ot to pay Social Security
c ontributions. One of the effects of
t he proposals would be to ensure, as
f ar as possible, that all workers,
m ale or female, entering the revised
s cheme for the first time have a full
J ersey contribution record which would g ive rise to full entitlement to all
b enefits on a personal basis. The
r ights of existing contributors would
n ot be affected.''
Deputy Buesnel Q uestion 2
Secondly, in view of the fact that
t he non-contributory pension
r ecipients are diminishing in number, w ill the President consider using
t hese surplus States funds to uprate
t he lower scales of pensions now paid t o persons without a full
c ontributions record, but who have
a ttained the age of 85 years?''
President, Social Security Committee
There is no direct relationship
b etween non-contributory pensions
w hich are paid from general revenues a nd the Social Security Pension which i s funded by the contributors.
T herefore, the answer must be no. The n on-contributory pension scheme was i ntroduced at the time of the
i ntroduction of the Insular Insurance
( Jersey) Law 1951 and was placed on a l egal basis in 1954, with the purpose
t o provide a pension to those people
w ho were too old to contribute and to
o btain a pension under the new
c ontributory scheme. These people had t o have been born before September
1 896. Everybody born after this date
h as not only had an opportunity to
c ontribute to a Social Security
S cheme but, if resident in Jersey, has
h ad the opportunity of contributing
a nd gaining a full pension.''
S upplementary question and answer
D eputy Buesnel - Would not the
P resident agree that the scheme being b rought in in the first place to
p eople over 85 to prevent them from s uffering undue hardship, this follows t hat today, that these people who have n ot paid in full contributions, who
w ere unable to for some reason or
o ther, should surely deserve the same c ompassionate treatment that the
S tates gave to those earlier people
w ho were unable to contribute?''
P resident, Social Security
C ommittee - It is not a matter of
c ompassion but everybody who is not in r eceipt of a full pension had the
o pportunity and the right to pay
c ontributions and receive a full
p ension and there are many reasons why p eople of age 85 and below who do not r eceive a full pension because they
h ave not paid their contributions for
o ne reason or another, have lived in
t he Island possibly for a very short
p eriod. I don't know if the taxpayer
w ould wish to increase the pension for
t hat reason. I think there is a danger
i f we pay full pensions to persons who
h ave through their own choice or
w hatever reason have not paid their
c ontributions but we pay them a full
p ension it will bring the scheme into
s omewhat disrepute because the person c ontributing would say why do I have
t o pay contributions if I'm going to
g et a full pension anyway. But
c ertainly this is quite a complex and
d eep subject and will have big
i mplications if the Deputy wishes to
d iscuss the matter in some detail we
w ould be pleased to welcome him to the C ommittee to discuss it.''
Cable television. Statement
The President of the
Telecommunications Board made a statement in the following terms -
Following my answers to questions on c able television at last Tuesday's
m eeting of the States, I wish to
i nform the House that my Board has
c onsidered the advice of the Attorney
G eneral on the subject of a temporary
l icence for a full-scale system.
B efore making a final decision the
B oard has referred the application to
t he Policy and Resources Committee on t he manpower implications of such a
s ystem.
I hope to return to the House at an e arly date with the Board's
p roposals.''
Correspondence Colleges and
Institutes (Licensing) (Jersey) Law 1990. P.37/90
THE STATES, subject to the sanction
of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Correspondence Colleges and Institutes (Licensing) (Jersey) Law 1990.
Entry controls for visitors to Jersey. P.16/89 withdrawn
THE STATES commenced consideration
of a proposition of Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asking the States to decide whether, in view of the adverse
long term effects of freedom of movement into the Island, the Defence Committee be requested to examine the introduction of entry controls for all persons visiting
the Island.
After discussion, Deputy Buesnel withdrew the proposition.
Dental benefit and services: introduction. P.16/90
THE STATES, adopting a proposition
of the Social Security Committee approved, in principle, the proposed dental scheme for school leavers as set out in paragraphs 9 and 10 of the report of the Social Security Committee entitled Dental benefit and services: introduction -
report'' (P.60/89) presented to the States
on 16th May 1989.
Members present voted as follows - P o u r' ' (35)
Senators
J eune, Horsfall, Ellis, Rothwell, B rooke, Carter.
Connétable s
S t. John, St. Peter , St. Lawrence, St. O uen, St. Saviour , St. Brelade,
T rinity, St. Martin.
Deputies
M orel(S), Trinity , Vandervliet(L),
Wavell(H), Blampied(H), Billot(S),
N orman(C), St. John, St. Peter, St.
M artin, Baudains(C), Buesnel(H),
C . Rumboll(H), St. Ouen, Coutanche(L), H uelin(B), Jordan(B), St. Mary ,
B ailhache(H), Grouville , Clarke-
H alifax(S).
C o n t re'' (6)
Senators
S henton, Le Main, Stein.
Connétable
G rouville.
Deputies
d e la Haye(H), Rabet(H).
Building loans: extension of scheme. P.18/90. Withdrawn
THE STATES commenced consideration of a proposition of Senator Richard Joseph Shenton asking the States to decide whether
they were of opinion that the Housing Committee be requested to introduce the necessary legislation to extend the building loans scheme by -
( a) removing the upper
v a lu e restriction on the price of a b u ilding loan property;
( b) allowing all
r e si dentially qualified persons,
w h o are first-time buyers and who h a v e never received a building
l o an from the States, to be
e l ig ible under the Scheme;
( c) allowing a person qualified under
t h e Scheme to borrow up to #60,000 ( o r whatever figure is fixed) at a
m ax imum rate of interest of 10 per
c e n t a year.
After discussion, Senator Shenton withdrew the proposition, having received an assurance by the President of the Housing Committee that the Committee would come back as soon as reasonably possible with a further report and proposition.
The Limes Hospital development: Stage 2. P.35/90
THE STATES, adopting a proposition
of the Public Health Committee, approved in principle The Limes Hospital development Stage 2 as outlined in the Public Health Committee's report dated 8th January 1990 and agreed -
( a) to transfer #796,100 from the
H o using Committee's capital vote C 1 1 03 Building, purchase and
r e h abilitation of land' to the
P u b lic Health Committee's vote of c r ed it C2712 The Limes Stage 2';
( b) to combine existing votes C2712 T h e Limes Stage 3' and C2729,
T h e Limes Stage 2' as The Limes d e v elopment' (C2712).
THE STATES rose at 5.05 p.m.
E . J .M . P O T T E R G re f fi er of the States.