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STATES MINUTES 26 t h F ebruary 1991 P r ice : # 1.00
THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 26th February 1991 at 9.30 a.m. under t he Presidency of the Bailiff ,
S i r P eter Crill, C.B.E.
___ _______ __
All Members were present with the exception of -
S enator Terence John Le Main - out of t he Island.
D ereck Ryder Maltwood, Deputy of St. M ary - out of the Island.
A lan Payn Bree, Deputy of Grouville - i ll.
___ _______ __
P r aye rs
___ _______ __
Tribute to the late Mr. P.M. de Veulle, former Member of the House
The Bailiff paid tribute to the late
Mr. Philip Mauger de Veulle, a former Deputy of St. Clement .
Tribute to the late Mr. E. Watson, former Member of the House
The Bailiff paid tribute to the late
Mr. Ernest Watson, a former Connétable of St. Clement .
THE STATES observed one minute's silence as a mark of respect.
Subordinate legislation tabled
The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -
1 . Weights and Measures (Prescribed Q u ant ities No. 4) (Jersey) Order 1991. R & O 8173.
2 . Airport Dues (Tariff) (Jersey) O r der 1991. R & O 8174.
Agricultural Loans: report for 1990. R.C.5
The Agriculture and Fisheries
Committee by Act dated 21st February 1991 presented to the States a report on the Agricultural Loans and Guarantees Fund for the year ended 31st December 1990 and commenting on the operation during 1990 of the Agricultural (Loans and Guarantees) (Jersey) Law 1974, as amended, and the Agricultural (Loans) (Jersey) Regulations 1974, as amended.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Information Technology Development Plan for 1991. R.C.6
The Establishment Committee by Act dated 15th February 1991 presented to the States a report on the Information Technology Development Plan for 1991.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Jersey Council for Safety and Health
at Work: report and accounts for 1989/90. R.C.7
The Social Security Committee by Act dated 6th February 1991 presented to the States the report and accounts of the Jersey Council for Safety and Health at Work for the years 1989/90.
THE STATES ordered that the said report and accounts be printed and distributed.
Prison Board: report for 1990. R.C.8
The Prison Board by Act dated 28th January 1991 presented to the States the report of the Board for 1990.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Broadcasting Committee: report for 1990. R.C.9
The Broadcasting Committee by Act dated 22nd January 1991 presented to the States the report of the Committee for 1990.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Matters noted - land transactions
THE STATES noted an Act of the
Finance and Economics Committee dated 18th February 1991, showing that in pursuance of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved -
( a) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, with the support of the I sl and Development Committee, the pur chase from Mathilda Enterprises L i m ited of No. 60 Rouge Bouillon
f or t he sum of #500,000, with a
f ive pe r cent retention for a
per iod of six months, with each
par ty being responsible for the
paym ent of its own legal fees;
( b) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, with the support of the I sl and Development Committee, the pur chase from Delill Investments
L i m ited of five vergées of land on
par t of Field 1311, Mont au
P r êt re, St. Helier for the sum of
#308,0 62, plus the payment of all
l egal fees;
( c) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, with the support of the
I sl and Development Committee, the
pur chase from Mr. Paul Francis
Wood and Mrs. Wendy Anne Wood née C ar ruthers of 0.65 vergées of land
and a n access track at Field 1311,
Mont au Prêtre, St. Helier for the
s um of #56,108, plus the payment
of a ll legal and professional
f ee s ;
( d) as recommended by the Public
H e al th Committee, the renewal of t he l ease from 23 Havre des Pas
L i m ited of the two-bedroomed pr op erty Flat 6, 23 Havre des Pas, S t . H elier, for a period of one year from 24th February 1991, at an a nnual rent of #6,896;
( e) as recommended by the Public
H e al th Committee, the extension of t he l ease from Mr. George
B er nardes of the three-bedroomed pr op erty Alzola, Upper
K i ng' s Cliff, St. Helier , from 1st
Mar ch 1991 subject to three
m o nths' notice being given by
ei t he r side, at an annual rent of
#9,996 ;
( f) as recommended by the Housing C om mittee, the granting The
May fair Hotel Limited of a
w a yl eave for both foul and surface w a t er drainage pipes along a route t o D e Quetteville Court, St.
H e l ier and the right to connect to
t he exi sting drainage system, for
a s u m of #1,000 with the company bei ng r esponsible for the cost of
al l ac commodation works and the paym ent of legal fees;
( g) as recommended by the Defence
C om mittee, the lease to the Jersey
E l e ctricity Company Limited of a
s it e f or an electricity sub-
s tat ion at the Territorial Army
C ent re at the R.E. Yard, Mount
B i ngh am, St. Helier , for a period
of 9 9 years an an annual rent of
#1 co mmuted forward to the
i nc ept ion of the agreement, the
l eas e to include a contract
w a yl eave for the proposed cable
s how n on J.E.C. Wayleave Plan No. 22L , with each side being
r es pons ible for its own legal
f ee s .
Matters lodged
The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Draft Weights and Measures
( P res cribed Quantities No. 5)
( Je r sey) Order 199 . P.23/91.
P r es ented by the Public Services C om mittee.
2 . Draft Weights and Measures ( P res cribed Quantities No. 6)
( Je r sey) Order 199 . P.24/91.
P r es ented by the Public Services C om mittee.
3 . Draft Weights and Measures
( A ddi tional Metric Measures)
( Je r sey) Order 199 . P.25/91.
P r es ented by the Public Services C om mittee.
4 . 1 and 2 Old St. James
P l a ce, St. Helier : approval of dr a wings. P.26/91.
P r es ented by the Housing
C om mittee.
5 . Draft Public Finances
( A dm inistration) (Amendment No. 6) ( Je r sey) Law 199 . P.27/91.
P r es ented by the Finance and
E conom ics Committee.
6 . Motor vehicle registration,
l icen sing and duty. P.28/91. P r es ented by the Finance and E conom ics Committee.
The following subjects were lodged on 19th February 1991 -
1 . Draft Regulation of Undertakings
and D evelopment (Amendment No. 6) ( Je r sey) Regulations 1991 .
P .20/ 91.
P r es ented by the Finance and
E conomics Committee.
2 . Housing of essential employees. P .21/ 91.
P r es ented by the Policy and
R es ources Committee.
3 . Mr. B.R. Cooper: appointment of S peci al Committee. P.22/91.
P r es ented by Senator J.S.
R ot hwell.
Arrangement of Public Business for the next Sitting on 12th March 1991
THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe should be considered at the next Sitting on 12th March 1991 -
D raft Regulation of Undertakings and
D evelopment (Amendment No. 6) (Jersey) R egulations 1991 . P.20/91.
L odged: 19th February 1991. F inance and Economics C ommittee.
H ousing of essential employees. P .21/91.
L odged: 19th February 1991.
P olicy and Resources Committee.
M r. B.R. Cooper: appointment of S pecial Committee. P.22/91.
L odged: 19th February 1991.
S enator J.S. Rothwell.
D raft Weights and Measures
( Prescribed Quantities No. 5) (Jersey) O rder 199 . P.23/91.
L odged: 26th February 1991.
P ublic Services Committee.
D raft Weights and Measures
( Prescribed Quantities No. 6) (Jersey) O rder 199 . P.24/91.
L odged: 26th February 1991.
P ublic Services Committee.
D raft Weights and Measures
( Additional Metric Measures) (Jersey) O rder 199 . P.25/91.
L odged: 26th February 1991.
P ublic Services Committee.
1 and 2 Old St. James Place,
S t. Helier: approval of drawings. P .26/91
L odged: 26th February 1991.
H ousing Committee.
D raft Public Finances
( Administration) (Amendment No. 6) ( Jersey) Law 199 . P.27/91.
L odged: 26th February 1991.
F inance and Economics
C ommittee.
M otor vehicle registration,
l icensing and duty. P.28/91. L odged: 26th February 1991. F inance and Economics
C ommittee.
Legal fees. Questions and answers (Tape No. 83)
Senator Richard Joseph Shenton asked Deputy Edgar John Becquet, President of the Legislation Committee, the following questions -
- In 1985 the Legislation Committee in
a report on a proposition of Senator
S henton with regard to conveyancing f ees stated The Committee is not
s atisfied that, at the present time,
t he advantages of opening up the
p ractice of conveyancing to non-
l awyers would outweigh the
d isadvantages''. Does the President
c onsider that the time has now arrived f or a proper investigation to be
i nstigated on conveyancing charges?
- Will the President inform the House as t o the present scale of legal fees
c harged in the Island of Jersey and
w ould he consider approaching the
B ailiff in order that an investigation
m ay be undertaken to review present
c harges?
- Will the President inform the House of t he difference between legal fees
c harged by the profession and taxed
c osts?
- Will the President inform the House w here specific changes which have
t aken place with regard to the
U nited Kingdom legal system and are r elevant to the Jersey situation have
b een considered by his Committee?
- Will the President inform the House w hether the time has come for any of
o ur Laws which are still in the French
l anguage to be re-enacted in English?
- Will the President support an
e xamination into the legal aid system w hich at present appears to favour the i rresponsible rather than the needy in
o ur society?''
The President of the Legislation Committee replied as follows -
1 and 2 My Committee sees no
j us t ification for investigating in i sol ation the fees charged by the l egal profession.
S o far as conveyancing charges are
c oncerned there is a scale which was
l aid down by the Royal Court in 1954.
M y Committee doubts whether it is
a ppropriate to attempt to control the
f ees of lawyers anymore than it would b e appropriate to control the fees of
a ccountants, architects or surveyors.
T he fees of lawyers will vary
a ccording to the lawyer who is
r etained, the nature of the work, and t he responsibility carried as a result
o f the client's instructions.
H owever, there are a number of other a spects of the practice of law, not
m entioned by the Senator, which the C ommittee considers could usefully be t he subject of a review such as that
r ecently undertaken into the Island's
J udicial and Legal Services. Such
m atters include the investigation of
c omplaints against the legal
p rofession, the practice of law in
J ersey by persons without local
q ualifications, and the appropriate
l evel of judicial fees; i.e., should
l itigants (subject to certain
s afeguards) pay the market costs of
p roviding a court.
I propose to invite the Bailiff to
c onstitute a Review Committee and
s hall be discussing with him the terms
o f reference for that Committee. At
t he same time my Committee will be d iscussing with the Finance and
E conomics Committee the availability
o f funds to meet the cost of such a
r eview.
- A successful litigant before the Royal C ourt is usually awarded his costs.
S uch orders for costs are either on
a n indemnity basis'' or on a taxed
b asis''. The fees recoverable under
t he taxed scale of costs as approved
b y the Royal Court are lower than
t hose actually charged by most
p ractising lawyers, partly because the
t axed scale has not kept up with
m odern charges. While the indemnity c osts'' order leaves the successful
l itigant without any legal fees to
p ay, an order for taxed costs (which
i s the more usual order) will allow
h im to recover from his opponent
l ittle more than one half of his legal
f ees incurred. The Committee considers t hat this state of affairs is not
e ntirely satisfactory and understands
t hat the Judicial Greffier has
s ubmitted to the Bailiff proposals for
r eform.
- The legal system in the United Kingdom i s quite different from that of this
I sland and the changes which have been m ade in the United Kingdom would not b e applicable in Jersey as they
c oncern principally the rights of
a udience in certain Courts.
A t the present moment a Working Party h as been appointed to give
c onsideration to the status and future
p ractice of the solicitor branch of
t he legal profession in Jersey,
i ncluding the possibility of
a malgamation with the bar.
- The general practice since 1948 has
b een that laws are enacted in English.
T he only exceptions to that practice
h ave been where amendments to existing l aws in the French language have been
i ntroduced or where (as with the
F lying Freeholds draft law) there are
o ther important reasons for using
F rench. A great deal of basic Jersey
L aw is founded on the customary law of N ormandy and there are certain laws,
s uch as those relating to real
p roperty, which would make it
d ifficult to frame into English.
- The Committee disagrees that the legal a id system favours the irresponsible
r ather than the needy in our society.
T he legal aid system works for those
w ho are most in need of it namely
t hose who are without means and who a re required to be in the Courts of
t his Island because of the
c ircumstances in which they find
themselves. Some of those who are
n eedy may also be irresponsible; but
a s such people are generally brought
b efore the Courts under a criminal
p rosecution, they ought to have the
b enefit of legal representation not
j ust for themselves but as to assist
i n the administration of justice.
A great deal of time is given by the
l egal profession in attending to the
n eeds of those on legal aid. I believe
t hat the great service rendered by the
l egal profession to legal aid is not
f ully appreciated. If the English
s ystem were adopted the annual costs t o this Island would amount to
h undreds of thousands of pounds. As it i s, there is no cost to the exchequer
i n Jersey for legal aid save in
r espect of certain disbursements.
D uring 1990 no less than 1,636 legal
a id certificates were issued, one-
t hird of which concerned criminal
m atters the remaining two-thirds being m ostly in respect of Civil matters, of
w hich matrimonial advice, including
c ases of domestic violence, were
p redominant. Very often no charge is m ade for these services. When a charge i s made it should be commensurate with t he means of the individual. In cases
o f dispute the Bâtonnier has power to
a djudicate and if necessary to direct
t he lawyer to reduce his account. If
t he States were to take over the legal
a id system it is likely that the costs
w hich the Island would have to bear,
b oth in fees and administration, would b e considerable. In the context of the
S enator's questions, the Committee
s ees no need for a general examination
o f the legal aid system.
H owever, difficulties do occasionally a rise where a legally aided litigant
l oses his case and costs are awarded
a gainst him. If, as will be likely, he
h as no means, the successful litigant
c annot recover his costs. This seems
u nfair and is a further matter which
t he Committee considers could be
e xamined by inclusion within the terms
o f reference of the Review Committee t o which I have previously referred.''
Office developments. Questions and answers (Tape No. 83)
Deputy Stuart Syvret of St. Helier asked Senator Pierre François Horsfall, President of the Finance and Economics Committee the following questions -
- When did the moratorium on office d evelopment start and when is it due t o end?
- How many permissions to develop were granted in the three month period
b efore the start of the moratorium and
h ow does this compare with the usual
a mount for a three month period?
- How many office developments are in t he pipeline'?
- Are there any circumstances in which
p ermission to develop would be granted r egardless of the moratorium?
- How many sites have been secured for h ousing as a result of the office
b uilding moratorium?''
The President of the Finance and Economics Committee replied as follows -
- A policy statement on office
deve lopment was made to the States by t he President of the Finance
and E conomics Committee on 25th J ul y 1989 . Contrary to the
i m pr ession given by the media this s tat ement did not suggest a
m o ratorium on all office
deve lopment. The President
i nf or med the House that the
pr e sumption should be that for a
per iod of at least five years the
gr a nting of licences for office
deve lopment under Part III of the
R egul ation of Undertakings and
D e vel opment Law would not be in t he I sland's best interests.
H o w ever, this was subject to
cer t ain exceptions relating to the
need to have proper regard for the
f loor space requirements of the
f inanc e industry and other sectors
t ha t arise from an accepted rate
of b usiness expansion, and from
t he nee d to accommodate new
i nf or mation technology. These
r eq uirements were expected to be
s at i sfied through the development
of a number of sites in the
pi p eline', plus some modest office
deve lopments on sites that were
acc epted as being unsuitable for
hous ing.
T he main purpose of the policy
s tatement was to seek to ensure that
u rban land suitable for housing was
p ut to that use, and that sufficient
r esources of the construction industry w ere made available to undertake house b uilding. To the extent that office
d evelopment can be accommodated,
w ithin the context of both the policy
s tatement and the zero job growth
p olicy adopted by the States in
D ecember 1989, it is intended that
t his should continue to be done.
I ndeed, the Finance and Economics
C ommittee is required under the
p rovisions of the Regulation of
U ndertakings and Development Law to h ave regard to the merits of each case
a nd under Article 5 of that Law a
d ecision to refuse a licence must
r efer to the reasons why this is
j ustified, having regard to the need
t o regulate and manage demand on the r esources of the Island.
A s members are also no doubt aware my C ommittee continues to pursue a policy
o f only granting consents for office
d evelopment where this can be shown to b e in the Island's best interests, and
s uch consents are only granted where a s ignificant proportion of the floor
s pace to be provided is to be occupied
b y a known user from whose activities
t he Island derives significant
b enefits.
- In the period May to July 1989 there w as one licence granted in respect of
o ffice development.
I n answering the second part of the
q uestion, I think it is better to
c onsider the licensing of office
d evelopments over a longer period than t hree months. The number of licences g ranted in 1988 for office development w as 11, in 1989 the number was 8, and i n 1990 the number was 5.
- There is only one major development w here the Finance and Economics
C ommittee has granted a licence but w here building work has yet to
c ommence; that is, the Lancashire
T extiles site in Bath Street. There
a re a number of other cases where the C ommittee has accepted that the site i s unsuited for housing development, t he Island Development Committee is k een to see an improvement in the
u rban fabric, and/or the best
i nterests of the Island will be served
b y the granting of a consent if there
a re known users whose activities are
o f sufficient benefit to the Island.
H owever, in the current economic
c limate there appears to be less
p ressure on the part of existing
u ndertakings to take up the office
s pace that could be provided if the
d evelopments concerned were to be
p roceeded with.
- I hope I have made it clear in my ans wer to the first question that t he r e is not a moratorium but a pol icy of limiting office
deve lopment, for there are ci r cum stances in which licences to deve lop would be granted, and have been granted. Each decision will
r ef l ect the Finance and Economics C om mittee's assessment of what is i n t he best interests of the
I sl and having regard to States
pol icy, and the need to balance
t he ava ilability of land and
r es our ces for housing with the
of fi ce space requirements of a
pr os perous economy from which all I sl and residents benefit.
- As a result of the policy statement in
J uly 1989 the States pursued and were
s uccessful in acquiring the Ritz Hotel
a nd Channel Television sites, together
w ith the Cleveland Garage (Bath
S treet) site. There are certain other
p roperties where discussions continue
a nd where it has been made clear, in
t he context of both the Island plan
a nd the Regulation of Undertakings and D evelopment Law, that permission to
u ndertake office building on the scale
e nvisaged would not be in the best
i nterests of the Island and that the
s ites would be better used for
r esidential development.
T here are further sites where the
p olicy being pursued by the States has u ndoubtedly produced a different mix
o f development, with a higher
p roportion of the floor space to be
c onstructed taking the form of
r esidential as opposed to commercial a ccommodation.''
Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law 1990 Appointed Day Act 1991
THE STATES, in pursuance of Article 51 of the Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law 1990, made an Act entitled the Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law 1990 Appointed Day Act 1991.
Public Lotteries Board: appointment of member
THE STATES, adopting a proposition
of the Gambling Control Committee, approved the appointment of Mrs. Cynthia Miriam Rumboll as a member of the Public Lotteries Board, for a period of five years from the
date of appointment in pursuance of Regulation 3 of the Gambling (Channel Islands Lottery) (Jersey) Regulations 1975, as amended.
Attendance Allowance Board: appointment
THE STATES, adopting a proposition
of the Social Security Committee and in pursuance of Article 4 of the Attendance Allowances (Jersey) Law 1973, as amended, appointed the undermentioned as chairman and members of the Attendance Allowance Board for a period of three years from 14th March 1991, namely -
D r . J . Newell (Chairman) D r . D . Crill
D r . S . Milner
D r . A .D. Williams
D r . D . Fullerton
Mr s M. Rebindaine
Mr s D. Le Feuvre
Overseas Trading Corporation, St. Helier : purchase. P.19/91
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Island Development Committee -
( a) approved the purchase from the
O v er seas Trading Corporation
( 193 9) Limited of the site
occu pied by the Overseas Trading C or poration at First Tower, for
t he s um of #4.5 million, with each s ide be ing responsible for its own l egal fees, subject to the
O v er seas Trading Corporation
r et ai ning possession of the
bui lding forming part of the site
f or a t erm not to extend beyond
30t h June 1992;
( b) authorised the payment or
di schar ge of expenses to be
i nc ur red in connexion with the
acqu isition of the said land from
t he I sland Development Committee's vot e of credit Acquisition of
L and - Major Reserve'' (Vote
N o . C 0904);
( c) authorised the Attorney General and t he Greffier of the States to
pas s on behalf of the public any cont racts which might be found nece ssary to pass in connexion
w i t h the said properties and any i nt er ests therein.
Weighbridge area and west of Albert Pier reclamation site: development of roads. P.11/91
THE STATES rejected a proposition of Senator Nigel Lewis Querée -
( a) to rescind paragraph (a) of their
A c t dated 19th April 1988, in
w h i ch they adopted a proposition
of t he Island Development
C om mittee, and approved the layout of r oads in the Weighbridge area
and o n the northernmost part of
t he r eclamation site to the west
of t he Albert Pier; and
( b) to rescind paragraph (b) of their
A c t , dated 30th May 1989, in which t he y ado pted a proposition of the
P ubl ic Works Committee and
appr oved, in principle, in
r el at ion to the first phase of
deve lopment of the Albert Pier
r ec l amation site a new road over
t he r eclamation site, linking to
t he exi sting road north of the
m ar ina at Albert Pier, together
w i t h a junction and link road to
C as tle Street and a spur road for
a f ut ure link to the reclamation
s it e a nd Ro-Ro terminal.
Members present voted as follows - P our ' '(16)
Senators
S henton, Baal, Rothwell, Le Maistre, C arter, Querée.
Connétable
S t. Lawrence.
Deputies
B ecquet(T), Beadle(B), Blamplied(H),
D e Feu(P), Coutanche(L), Bailhache (H), B audains(H), Le Geyt(S), Syvret(H).
C ont re''(31)
Senators
J eune, Binnington, Horsfall, Stein, C hinn.
Connétable s
S t. John, St. Peter , St. Helier , St. C lement, St. Mary , St. Ouen , St. B relade, Trinity , St. Martin ,
G rouville.
Deputies
L e Gallais(S), Roche(S), Rumboll(H),
W avell(S), Norman(C), Baudains(C), Le S ueur(H), Le Masurier(O), Huelin(B),
J ordan(B), Rabet(H), Clarke-
H alifax(S), Le Fondré(L), Jehan (M),
W alker(H), Crespel(H).
Amendment (No. 13) to the Standing Orders of the States of Jersey (P.176/90) and Amendment (P.190/90)
THE STATES commenced consideration of a proposition of the House Committee regarding Amendment (No. 13) of the Standing Orders of the States of Jersey and rejected a proposition of Deputy Robin Ernest Richard Rumboll of St. Helier that in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 44A, after the word
unremunerated'' there shall be inserted the words, but not so as to require the disclosure of any directorship arising solely from the performance of the professional duties of the member or the member's spouse.'' After further discussion the President of the House Committee withdrew the proposition.
Investigation of Fraud (Jersey) Law 1991. P.18/91
THE STATES subject to Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Investigation of Fraud
(Jersey) Law 1991.
Adjournment
THE STATES then adjourned, having agreed to defer consideration of the outstanding items of Public Business until the next Sitting.
THE STATES rose at 5.55 p.m.
R .S . G R A Y G r e f fi er of the States.