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STATES MINUTES 17t h Ma rc h 1992 P ri c e : £ 2.00
T HE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 1 7th March 1992 at 9.30 a.m. under
t he Presidency of the Bailiff ,
S i r P eter Crill, C.B.E.
__ _______ ___
All Members were present with the exception of -
S enator Anne Baal - ill.
S enator Antony Beresford Chinn - out of the I sland.
J ohn Pepin le Sueur, Connétable of St.
J ohn - out of the Island.
L eonard Picot, Connétable of Trinity - ill.
A lan Payn Bree, Deputy of Grouville - out
o f the Island.
__ _______ ___
P r aye rs
__ _______ ___
Distinguished visitors welcome
The Bailiff welcomed to the States Mr. Goncalves Nuno Dos Santos, Head of the Emigration Department in Madeira, and his adviser Mr. Virgilio Delgado Teixeira, and Councillor Morris Barton, Leader of the County Council in the Isle of Wight.
Connétable of Grouville - welcome
The Bailiff , on behalf of the Members of the States welcomed to the Assembly the newly elected Connétable of Grouville , Mr. Francis Herbert Amy.
Deputy G.E. Rabet of St. Helier - welcome
The Bailiff , on behalf of the Members of the States welcomed Deputy Graeme Ernest Rabet of St. Helier to the States after his recent
illness.
Subordinate legislation tabled
The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -
1 . Amendment (No. 14) to the Tariff of H arbour and Light Dues
R & O 8348
2 . Milk and Dairies (General
P r ovi sions) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8349
3 . Misuse of Drugs (Designation)
( A m endment No. 2) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8350
4 . Misuse of Drugs (General
P r ovi sions) (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) O r der 1992 R & O 8351
5 . Income Tax (Purchased Life
A n nui ties) (Amendment) Order 1992 R & O 8352
6 . Banking Business (List of
R egi stered Persons) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8353
7 . Road Traffic ( Grouville )
( A m endment No. 7) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8354
8 . Road Traffic ( St. Clement )
( A m endment No. 7) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8355
9 . Motor Vehicle (Construction and
U s e ) (Amendment No. 27) (Jersey) Order 1992 R & O 8356
1 0. Health Insurance (Pharmaceutical B enef it List) (Amendment No. 11) ( Je r sey) Order 1992 R & O 8357.
Social Security Committee - appointment of member
THE STATES appointed Francis Herbert Amy, Connétable of Grouville as a member of the Social Security Committee.
Committee for Postal Administration -
appointment of member
THE STATES appointed Francis Herbert Amy, Connétable of Grouville as a member of the Committee for Postal Administration.
Housing Strategy for the 90's: supplementary report (P.23/92). P.36/92
The Finance and Economics Committee by Act dated 9th March 1992 presented to the States their comments on the Housing Strategy for the 90's supplementary report.
Agricultural loans: report for 1991. R.C.8
The Agriculture and Fisheries Committee, by Act dated 5th March 1992, presented to the States a report on the Agricultural Loans and Guarantees Fund for the year ending 31st December 1991 and commenting on the operation during 1991 of the Agriculture (Loans and Guarantees) (Jersey) Law 1974, as amended, and the Agricultural (Loans) (Jersey) Regulations 1974, as amended.
THE STATES ordered that the said report be printed and distributed.
Dwelling Houses Loan Fund: statement for 1991. R.C.9
The Housing Committee, by Act dated 28th February 1992, presented to the States a statement showing the financial position of the Dwelling Houses Loan Fund as at 31st December 1991.
THE STATES ordered that the said statement be printed and distributed.
Matters noted - land transactions
THE STATES noted an Act of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 9th March 1992, showing that in pursuance of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved -
( a) as recommended by the Education
C om mittee, the grant to the Jersey
E l e ctricity Company Limited of a
w a yl eave through the grounds of Plat D o uet School from Plat Douet sub-
s tat ion to a point in Rue des Prés
oppos ite the pedestrian access to the s cho ol, for the purpose of laying a cabl e, with the company being
r es pons ible for all legal fees;
( b) as recommended by the Public
H e al th Committee, the renewal of the l eas e to Mr. Barry Clement Rondel of F i e ld 1547, Westmount, St. Helier , for a pe riod of one year from 1st January 1992 a t an annual rent of £60;
( c) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, the lease to the Jersey
E l e ctricity Company Limited of an area of l and at St. Luke's Vicarage, La
R out e du Fort, St. Helier for a period
of 9 9 years from 1st April 1991 at an
annua l rent of £1 with the company
bei ng r esponsible for all legal costs;
( d) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, the sale to Miss Susan Ann S hor t of 371 square feet of land at the
f ront of 14 Aquila Close, St. Helier
f or t he the sum of £371, and 202 square f ee t of land at the side of 14 Aquila
C l os e, St. Helier for the nominal sum
of £ 10, with Miss Short being
r es pons ible for all existing rights
gr a nted by the public to other owners
i n t he Aquila Close area and for all
l egal costs incurred;
( e) as recommended by the Housing Committee t he s ale to the Parish of St. Helier ,
of a n area of land measuring
appr oximately 1,980 square feet at
Wi nds or Road, St. Helier , required for
r oa d widening, for a consideration of
£ 10, w ith the Parish of St. Helier
bei ng r esponsible for all legal costs
i nc ur red;
( f) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, the sale in perpetuity to
D a gar Holdings Limited of the right of acc ess over part of the site of the
B eau V allon Hotel, Trinity Road, St.
H e l ier, for the sum of £5,000, with
eac h side being responsible for its own l egal costs;
( g) as recommended by the Housing
C om mittee, a Contrat de Transaction
bet w een the public of the Island and
D a gar Holdings Limited in order to
ext i nguish the rights of Dagar Holdings L i m ited to draw water from the site of t he B eau Vallon Hotel, Trinity Road,
S t . H elier, with each side paying its ow n l egal costs;
( h) as recommended by the Public
S er vices Committee, a Contrat de
B or nement between the Public of the
I sl and , as the owner of land in Field
398, S t. Brelade and Mrs. Collette Le
B out illier Cooke, née Benest, the owner of t he adjoining property, Sea Braes,
L a R oute du Petit Port, St. Brelade , in
or de r to allow a wall to be erected
bet w een the properties, with Mrs. Cooke bei ng r esponsible for all legal costs
i nv olved.
Matters lodged
The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Draft Food and Drugs (Amendment) ( Je r sey) Law 199 P.31/92
P r es ented by the Public Health
C om mittee
2 . Maternity Rights: code of
pr a ctice P.32/92
P r es ented by Senator Corrie S t e in
3 . Draft Shell-Fish (Underwater
F i shi ng) (Jersey) Regulations 199 P .33/ 92
P r es ented by the Agriculture and F i sher ies Committee
4 . Projet de Règlements (1992) sur l e Mar quage d'Oeufs P.34/92
P r es ented by the Agriculture and F i sher ies Committee
5 . Clos du Fort Phase II:
deve lopment P.35/92
P r es ented by the Housing C om mittee
6 . Projet de Loi (199 ) (Amendement N o . 4 ) sur l'Instruction Primaire
P .37/ 92
P r es ented by the Education
C om mittee
7 . Field 748, St. Lawrence :
deve lopment P.38/92
P r es ented by Deputy Shirley
Mar garet Baudains of St. Helier
8 . Lawyers' Fees P.39/92
P r es ented by Senator Richard J os eph Shenton
9 . Social Security Convention with B ar bados P.40/92
P r es ented by the Social Security C om mittee
1 0. Health Care Protocol with
B ar bados P.41/92
P r es ented by the Public Health C om mittee.
The following subject was lodged on 10th March 1992 -
H aut de la Garenne, St. Martin : r edevelopment P.30/92
P resented by the Housing
C ommittee.
Haut de la Garenne, St. Martin : redevelopment. P.177/91. Withdrawn
THE STATES noted that the President of the Housing Committee had withdrawn the proposition relating to the redevelopment of Haut de la Garenne, St. Martin (lodged on 19th November 1991), the Committee having presented a revised proposition at the present Sitting (P.30/92).
Projet de Loi (199 ) (Amendement No. 4) sur l'Instruction Primaire. P.18/92. Withdrawn
THE STATES noted that the President of the Education Committee had withdrawn the Projet de Loi (199 ) (Amendement No. 4) sur l'Instruction Primaire (lodged on 18th February 1992), the Committee having presented a revised Projet de Loi at the present Sitting (P.37/92).
Establishment Committee: support for policies P.65/91. Withdrawn
THE STATES noted that Senator Richard Joseph Shenton had withdrawn his proposition asking the States to continue their support for the present policies of the Establishment Committee
regarding manpower growth (lodged on 22nd April 1991). Paragraphs (2) and (3) adopted on 24th September 1991.
Arrangement of Public Business for the next Sitting on 31st March 1992
THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe'' should be considered at the
next Sitting on 31st March 1992 -
D raft Food and Drugs (Amendment) (Jersey) L aw 199 P.31/92
P ublic Health Committee
M aternity Rights: code of practice P .32/92
S enator C. Stein
D raft Shell-Fish (Underwater Fishing) ( Jersey) Regulations 199 P.33/92
A griculture and Fisheries Committee
P rojet de Règlements (1992) sur le M arquage d'Oeufs P.34/92
A griculture and Fisheries Committee
C los du Fort Phase II: development P .35/92
H ousing Committee
P rojet de Loi (199 )
( Amendement No. 4) sur l'Instruction P rimaire P.37/92
E ducation Committee
S ocial Security Convention w ith Barbados P.40/92
S ocial Security Committee
H ealth Care Protocol with Barbados P .41/92
Public Health Committee
H ousing: strategy for the 90's: s upplementary report P.23/92 L odged: 25th February 1992 H ousing Committee
H ousing: Strategy for the
9 0's supplementary report (P.23/92): c omments P.36/92
F inance and Economics Committee
H ousing: strategy for the
9 0's (P.142/91): petition P.172/91 L odged: 5th November 1991
S enator C. Stein
H ousing: strategy for the
9 0's (P.142/91): report on petition ( P.172/91) R.C.29/91
Presented: 19th November 1991 H ousing Committee
Blue Horizon Holidays. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Senator Terence John Le Main asked Senator Richard Joseph Shenton, President of the Tourism Committee the following questions -
1. C an the President inform the House
w het her a significant number of
co m pl aints have been received in
the l as t five year period in
rel a ti on t o Blue Horizon Holidays
an d can he give any statistics of
thes e com plaints?
2 . If the answer to Question 1 is in
t he af firmative, will the President
gi v e an assurance that all such
com plaints are being investigated with a vi ew to their being satisfactorily
r es ol ved?
3 . Will the President undertake to
cons ider the introduction of
l egi slation designed to protect the i nt er ests of customers dealing with f ir m s which are not members of
A . B .T.A.?''
The President of the Tourism Committee replied as follows -
1. T here has been a significant
num be r of complaints about Blue
H or izon Holidays in recent years.
S en at o r Le Main is aware of the
num be rs. He was a member of the
T our i s m Committee until 15 months ag o and h e discussed the subject
w i th a Jersey Tourism manager
recen tl y. I cannot see what is to
be gai ned by making the figures
pub li c.
2 . Yes, all complaints were pursued and conc luded as well as possible - not
nece ssarily to the satisfaction of the
com plainant.
3 . Yes, the new Tourism Committee will cons ider whether there is a need for
l egi slation to protect customers of non A . B .T.A. members, but will give no
guar antee at this stage about the
out come of that consideration.''
States housing rental structure. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Senator Corrie Stein asked Deputy Leonard Norman of St. Clement , President of the Housing Committee the following questions -
1. Wi ll the President advise on which
S tat e s r ental dwellings the
m axi m um rent structure presently
ap pl i es ?
2 . Will the President explain the basis on
w h i ch the Housing Committee decides to w h i ch States rental dwellings the
m axi mum rent or the fair rent applies?
3 . Will the President give details of the
num ber of States rental tenants who
w e r e in arrears of rent both in January
and F ebruary for the years 1990, 1991
and 1 992, together with the number of
t enant s who were in arrears for less
t ha n s ix weeks and more than six weeks dur ing those periods?
4 . Will the President confirm that the
pr op osal that the Social Security
C om mittee should take into
cons ideration the reduction in rental
s ubs idies (earned income allowance and
chi l d allowance) when recommending the l evel s of family allowance to be paid
i n e ach year, will be in place before
t he exi sting subsidies are withdrawn?''
The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -
1. T he maximum rent' structure
pr es e nt ly applies to the following es t a tes -
C l os de Quennevais
G r as ett Park
R os e mount Estate
S t . P eter's School Estate E l y s ée Estate
T ow n Mills
We s tmount Park Estate (except bedsitt er s)
N i ch olson Park (except bedsitters) D e Q uetteville Court (older part of e
s tat e onl y).
2 . The reason for certain States rental
pr op erties (currently 514 units,
appr oximately 12 per cent of stock)
havi ng maximum' rents as opposed to fai r' rents is entirely historical.
A l l estates completed since 1974 have had t heir rents assessed by comparison w i t h fair market rents in the private
s ec tor. Many properties built before 1974 h ave not been assessed in this
w a y, an d their rents have significantly l agged b ehind fair rents due to -
( i) their rents not being increased at al l bet w een 1970 and 1973; and
( ii ) var ious formulae agreed to bring thei r r ent s into line with fair
rent s s ince that time failing to
ac hi e ve t his.
H o w ever, when significant modernisation i s car ried out on properties with
m axi mum' rents - e.g. new kitchens,
w i ndow replacement, cladding, new
heat ing systems - the Committee
t rans fers properties affected onto the
fai r' rent structure. Actual rent paid
by t he tenant is determined mainly by
t he t erms of the Rent Abatement Scheme.
S om e properties previously on the
m axi mum rent structure have been
t rans ferred to the fair rent structure
as a result of maximum rent catching up w i t h fair rent in accordance with
S t a tes approved formula referred to above .
3 . I regret that I cannot present the
i nf or mation requested entirely in the
w a y S enator Mrs. Stein requests,
beca use it does not exist in that form.
H o w ever, the following should help her and o thers understand the current and
r ec ent position in relation to our
t enant arrears.
F i gu res do not exist for 1990, other t ha n i n 4,500 individual paper files.
F i gu res for 1991 and 1992 show the f ol l owing -
1991 19 92
E nd J anuary 547 449 tenants 5 w e eks or
E nd F ebruary 540 432 more in ar r ear s
It is not possible to give meaningful
f igur es for tenants in arrears of less
t ha n f ive weeks' rent. Tenants opt to
pay r ent weekly, fortnightly, and
m o nthly by standing order. Any figures w h i ch we may retrieve from our computer ( e. g. al l tenants owing one or two
w e eks rent) could be misleading unless
l inked to the way those tenants
nor mally pay their rent.
4 . If the States approve the proposition on 31s t March, then clearly it will be i n p lace immediately.''
Scallop fishing. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Senator Terence John Le Main asked Senator John Stephen Rothwell, President of the Agriculture and Fisheries Committee the following
questions -
1. Wh at stage has the Committee
reach ed i n deciding whether or not to al l ow controlled diving for
sh el lf i sh under licence?
2 . If the answer to the above question is i n t he affirmative, when will licences be i ssued?
3 . Is it correct that dredging for
s ca llops and other fishing methods w h i ch are taking place around the s hor es of Jersey is ruining the sea f loor and destroying marine life?''
The President of the Agriculture and Fisheries Committee replied as follows -
1. D uring 1991 the Committee
ins tr uc ted work to be done on this is s ue . T he Committee -
( a ) established that the Sea Fisheries (E s t a bl ishment and Regulation of F is her ies) Jersey Regulations 1986 m ay be used to set up diving
co nces sions under licence;
( b ) sought and gained approval in pr i nc ipl e from Her Majesty's
R ec ei v er General;
( c ) made preliminary approaches to the H ar bour Department in relation to
the s a f ety and practicability of
su ch ope rations;
( d ) agreed conditions with the
F is her men's Association and the S ea F i sheries Advisory Panel by w hi ch a s ystem may operate.
2 . The Committee will be accepting
appl ications for licences when final
appr oval has been given by the Crown O f f icers.
T he C rown Officers were requested to conf irm the Committee's powers in
r es pec t of this issue in December 1991. O n r eceipt of this reply notices will
be gi ven in the local Gazette that the
C om mittee will receive applications for a s h ellfish concession.
3 . Any fishing method destroys marine life
t o a greater or lesser extent. Scallop
dr e dging does disturb the sea bed to a
cer t ain degree but trawling and in
par ticular beam trawling which involves
t he dr agging of heavy steel chains on
t he s ea bed is likely to be much more
dam aging to the sea bed than scallop
dr e dging. However both the United
K i ngdo m and French Governments have few r es t rictions on this activity.
I s houl d like to point out that Jersey
has been a forerunner in the
cons ervation of the sea bed by
l egi slating for trawling free zones in
ar eas around the coast. For example in
t he bays of St. Aubin, Grouville , St.
C at herine and St. Brelade trawling is
pr oh ibited. Further to this a vessel
m ay us e only one trawl in Jersey waters t hu s excluding all the vessels (some as
s m al l as 10m long) that use twin beam
r igs . There are to my knowledge no such r es t rictions in the coastal waters of
t he U nited Kingdom and France.''
Sites of special interest. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Senator Reginald Robert Jeune asked Deputy Harry Hall ewell Baudains of St. Clement , Vice-
President of the Island Development Committee the following questions -
1. Wo uld the President explain to the
A s s em bly the procedure for
de s i g nat ing buildings as sites of
sp eci al interest under Article 9
of t he I sland Planning (Jersey)
L aw 19 64, as amended?
2 . How many buildings are already
des ignated as sites of special interest and i n what parishes are they located?
3 . What arrangements (if any) are in
pr og ress for designating further
bui ldings as sites of special interest;
how many buildings are involved (parish by pa rish); and what stage have the
ar rang ements reached?
4 . Does the Committee intend to provide di ff erent grades of designated
bui lding; if so, how many grades will t he r e be, what will be the criteria for
t he di fferent grades, and what will be t he pr actical effect of grading so far
as t he potential development or
r ef ur bishing of such buildings is
conc erned?
5 . Would the President confirm that it is t he C ommittee's intention to designate bui ldings on a parish by parish basis?
6 . In that event, and given that the power of t he States under the Subordinate
L egi slation (Jersey) Law 1960, as
am ende d, to annul Orders allows the
S t a tes only to annul an entire Order,
and n ot part of the Order, would the
P r es ident undertake to present to the
A s s embly for its approval a list of
bui ldings proposed to be designated as s it es of special interest before Orders
ar e m ade under Article 9 of the Island P l a nning (Jersey) 1964 Law, as
am ende d?''
The Vice-President of the Island Development Committee replied as follows -
1. T he Senator's questions have to a ve r y l ar ge extent been answered in
the I s la nd Development Committee's repor t The Protection of Jersey's
A r c hi t ectural Heritage' which I
pr es e nted to the States on 4th
F eb ruar y with an accompanying list of al l t he proposed sites of
sp eci al interest. My replies,
ther ef or e, will draw from this
doc um ent which was intended to be a c la r if ication of the Island
D eve lopm ent Committee's policies
an d w hi ch was in fact generated by
S en at o r Jeune 's remarks to the
C om m ittee at a meeting held at his
reques t to discuss informally the
que s t ion o f sites of special int e res t on 27th August 1991.
T he I sland Planning (Jersey) Law 1964 as a mended and in particular Article 9 of t he Law as amended, gives the Island D e vel opment Committee powers to
des ignate by order sites of special
i nt er est. Insofar as these apply to the bui lt heritage, they may be designated beca use of the special architectural,
hi st orical or traditional interest
at t ac hing to them.
I n m aking an order, the Committee m u st -
( a ) show which one or more of the sp eci al interests referred to in
the A r ticle attaches to that
bui l d ing;
( b ) describe the building with su f f ici ent particularity that it m ay be identified;
( c ) distinguish between land and bui l d ings .
B ef ore making the order the owner must be no tified 28 days in advance, along
w i t h persons having an interest in the
pr op erty, and they are entitled to make
r ep resentations which must be taken
i nt o ac count.
T he C ommittee is also obligated to
cons ult with persons or bodies
appr opriate as having special knowledge or i nterest in buildings. The Committee has fulfilled that obligation by
appoi nting a consultant recommended by E ngl ish Heritage to undertake a survey of t he Island; by appointing a local
r ep resentative group, known as the
H i s toric Buildings Advisory Panel -
M r . D . B arlow
M r . M . Boots
M r . F . L e Gresley
M r . G . M yers
M r . D . L e Sueur
M i s s J . Arthur
M r . H . S tuart-Williams M r . M . Day
by ap pointing a professional member of s taf f with widely-based international cons ervation expertise, and by setting
up t he Jersey Building Heritage Sub- C om mittee to deal with current issues and p rocedures.
Whe n an order is made, the Island
D e vel opment Committee must serve a not ice on the owner, and persons with an i nterest in the building. That
not ice must then be registered in the
P ubl ic Registry of Contracts. The
pr oc edure is demanding on time,
expe rtise and resources, as it needs
obj ectivity, consultation and accuracy. T he w ork commenced in 1987 in the depa rtment, and is expected to continue f or anot her two years before all orders have been made.
2 . Orders have been made in a limited way unt il now, in two batches; one
conc erned with key buildings and
t er r aces in St. Helier , the other with
G o r ey Pier.
137 b uildings are listed in St.
H el ie r ( 197 2 )
27 buildings are listed in St.
M ar t in (197 4 ) (1990)
1 bu ilding is listed in St. Saviour
(1972 ) 1 bu ilding is listed in Grouville (
198 4 )
3 . Following the production of a
com prehensive list of buildings worthy
of p rotection, the Committee decided to pr og ress (as was envisaged) with the
des ignation of those buildings which
had b een listed as Grade 1 in the list.
P hot ographs and descriptions have been m ade a nd boundaries identified. All the ow ner s of those buildings selected by
C om mittee have now received notices of i nt ent ion to designate as sites of
s pec ial interest. The numbers involved
ar e as follows -
S t. H el ier (outer) 2 0
S t. H el ier (inner) 20 9
S t. B rel ade (including St. Aubin) 94
S t. C le ment 17 G r ou vi lle 5 1 S t. J ohn 4 2 S t. L aw rence 38 S t. Ma rtin (including Gorey) 38
S t. Ma ry 29 S t. O uen 37 S t. P et er 35 S t. S avi our 35 T ri ni ty 36
T O T A L = 681
T hus the total number of buildings to be l isted in Jersey which will benefit
f rom statutory protection is
appr oximately two per cent of all the
I sl and 's buildings. The Committee under stands that this is somewhat less
t ha n t he percentage of those in England w h i ch are listed.
T he a rrangements have been progressed over a five year period, since the
S t a tes approval of the Island Plan. The des ignation procedure is in effect
com pleted up to the stage of placing
t he or ders. The Committee has approved f or des ignation all those buildings on
t he l ist supplied to Members, and each ow ner has been notified. The draft
O r der for the Parish of St. John is
com plete and ready to be placed in the S t a tes, and further parishes will be
com pleted regularly over a two year
per iod.
T he r eason for the time-consuming final s tage i s that each order has to be
l egal ly verified in respect of
ow ner ship and boundaries which involves bot h officer and advocate visits to
s it e a nd Registry checking of title.
T he m ajor factor dictating the pace is
t he ava ilability of only one part-time
of fi cer within the department to
under take the administrative
pr e paration.
4 . No the Committee does not intend to di ff erentiate by grade those buildings des ignated as sites of special
i nt er est. This is in accordance with
t he pr ovisions of the Law.
T he c onfusion possibly experienced by t he S enator is in those buildings which ar e t o be designated as sites of
s pec ial interest and those listed for
pr ot ection which occur on the
D e par tmental Register of Buildings of A r chi tectural and Historical
I m por tance. The sites of special
i nt er est operate under Article 9 of the
L aw , whereas the Departmental Register oper ates as an advisory document in
s uppo rt of Island Plan objectives and
t he P lanning Law in general. In
s it ua tions where a building on the
D e par tmental Register may be under t hr eat , the Island Development
C om mittee is prepared to consider des ignating such a building as a 'spot- l is ti ng' to be able to protect it from dem olition or abuse.
T he c riteria for the Departmental
l is ti ng are quite extensive and are
det ai led in the report which was
s uppl ied to members last month. If, how ever, there are further questions on t hi s issue I can elaborate with
r ef er ence to that report.
I ns of ar as the practical effect of
gr a ding is concerned, there must be a pr e sumption against demolition of
bui ldings which are sites of special
i nt er est, although sensitive
cons ervation of these buildings will be enco uraged and changes in use
cons idered on their merits. The
depa rtmental list is an indication of
t he bui ldings which are considered
w o r thy of protection and for which
pl anni ng policies will guide towards
i m agi native conservation solutions
w h i ch will allow the Island's built
her itage to flourish and be kept in good o rder for future generations. The l os s of so many buildings of
ar chi tectural and historical merit to
t he I sland over the last 25 years must be a source of regret to all Members of t hi s House, and it is urgent and
es sent ial to protect our built heritage
f rom further unnecessary loss.
5 . Yes we will.
6 . It is difficult to understand, given
t he pai nstaking procedures involved,
t he S enator's request for the States to
appr ove buildings on the list. The
S t a tes could offer further objective
cr it eria to the process of designation.
T he m andate for the Island Development C om mittee to undertake the listing
pr oc edures is explicit in the Law, and
i s unequ ivocally supported in the
S t a tes approved Island Plan.
P ol icy BE5 of the Island Plan states
t ha t The Committee will designate and publ ish a list of sites of special
i nt er est covering buildings of
ar chi tectural and historic importance'. T he P olicy and Resources Committee S t rat egic Policy Report 1991 makes expl icit recognition of a need to
ens ure the preservation of all historic bui ldings and the Island's heritage gene rally', (although the suggested
m eans of achieving this through the H e r itage Trust are in contradiction of t he t ask with which the Island
D e vel opment Committee is presently char ged). The Policy Report Law
dr afting priorities for 1992-1993
i nc l ude both sites of special interest or de rs and conservation area orders.
I t s eems clear that the States has been
cons istent in its acknowledgement of
t he cen tral role that the Island
D e vel opment Committee must continue to pl ay i n the protection of the heritage.
I t i s inevitable that personal interest
m ay af fect the judgement of individuals
w h o m ay feel that listing imposes
obl igations upon them, although the
num ber of representations made by
ow ner s in response to notices of
i nt ent ion is very small indeed.
A p pr oval by the States could be seen as
the on e that matters' and could put
m em bers under quite unfair pressure,
and c ould result in listing procedures
beco ming primarily a political
act i vity, whereas at present there is a
car ef ully constituted balance between
pr of essional input, public
r ep resentation through the Committee
and r epresentation by the individual.
T he pr esentation to the States' Members of t he Protection of Jersey's
A r chi tectural Heritage' report and the
f ul l list of proposed sites of special
i nt er est opens the way for informed
i nv olvement of all Members if they
w i s h, and any representation will be
gi v en full and sympathetic
cons ideration by the Jersey Building
H e r itage Sub-Committee.
F i na lly, there is a review of the
P l a nning Law in progress at this
pr e sent time. If the Senator or Members of t he House should feel that changes
s houl d be considered, then of course
t he C ommittee would be anxious to cons ider any representation which would cont ribute towards improvement of the L aw and the effective protection of
J er s ey's architectural heritage.
T he I sland Development Committee has i nv ested heavily in the five years of
pr e paration to list buildings since the
I sl and Plan was approved, and wishes to pr oc eed with the making of orders
par ish-by-parish in the next two year per iod. I hope that the Senator and the H o us e will feel able to give full
s uppo rt to the completion of the
i m por tant work. It is my intention to
l ay t he first order, for the Parish of
S t . J ohn, before the House in the near
f ut ur e, and subsequently on a regular bas is until the task is complete.
I n c onclusion therefore it is the
I sl and Development Committee's opinion t ha t the present structure of decision
m aki ng is well-balanced, and to
i nt r oduce an additional step into the
appr oval procedure would not be an
appr opriate way of handling this
s ens itive matter.''
States housing developments: property prices. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asked Deputy Leonard Norman of St. Clement , President of the Housing Committee the following questions -
1. I s the President aware that across
the br ead th of the United Kingdom,
tw o -bed roomed terrace and bungalow type ho uses, together with
ga r age s, built to N.H.B.C.' or
F oundat ion Fifteen' standards,
ar e be i ng developed and sold at
pr ic es ranging from £37,000 to
£ 45 ,000?
2 . Will his Committee undertake to review as a matter of urgency why both
bui lding and land costs in Jersey are
s o m uch higher, so that a figure of
£ 90,00 0 for a States loan house is now
t he acc epted lowest price of a modest
new property in Jersey?
3 . Could the President also say what
negot iations if any, have taken place
w i t h the Island Development Committee t o s upply and release land for low-cost
hous ing development, and what steps his C om mittee intends to take to ensure
t ha t Island residents are not subjected
t o u ndue speculative forces from within t he cons truction industry, to bid up
l and and building costs?''
The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -
1. I am aware that in the United
K i n gdom purchase prices for
res ident ial properties vary from regi on t o region, and that in
pa r t s of that country small
pr oper ties are available at prices co ns i der ably lower than similar pr oper ties in Jersey.
T her e has been a significant drop in
t he val ue of domestic properties in the
U n i ted Kingdom which has caused serious har dship to many. I am relieved that
s im ilar problems have not occurred in
J er s ey.
2 . In 1987 the Housing Committee presented t o t he States the report of a working
par ty which had been appointed to look
i nt o t he question of building costs in
t he I sland. The working party consisted
of r epresentatives of both the private
and p ublic sectors at non-political
l evel .
A m ong the conclusions of the working par ty were the following -
( i) The working party found nothing to s ugg est that the relatively
hi gh co st of building in the
Is l and w as as a result of any of
thos e i nvolved in the industry
m aki ng an unreasonably high level of pr of it'.
( ii ) Building costs in the Island can, in gene ral, be justified given the pe cul iar circumstances facing
thos e i mporting materials into the Is l and - the lack of opportunities for e conom y of scale in an Island of J er s ey's size, specific
requi rem ents of the Island's
pl anne rs. etc.'
T he r eport itself highlighted specific pr ob lems faced in the industry,
i nc l uding the following -
( i) haulage and shipping costs;
( ii ) doubl e handling and storage costs; ( ii i) l imited size of orders;
( iv ) the need to stock a wide range of it em s ( 20,000 to 30,000 different it em s ) ;
( v ) the non-standardisation of
s p ecification largely caused by
ar chi te cts and planners wishing to ac hi e ve va riation in design.
C er tain recommendations were made by t he w orking party - e.g. the need for
f ixed p rice tendering, more
s tandar disation of specification for
S t a tes' loan properties, and these have been taken on board by the Island
D e vel opment and Housing Committees.
T he pr ice of States' loan properties is af fec ted by a variety of factors, and
t he s e were also highlighted in the
r ep ort.
( i) Land zoned for this purpose is
invar ia bly not good building land.
O pen f ields with good ground
co ndi t ions and all services close
at han d r arely, if ever, feature
in zoni ng proposals. Land fitting
thi s des cription and available for
de vel opm ent has normally been
de vel oped l ong ago. New sites
us ual ly suffer from problems which ad d t o the cost of development -
poo r gr ound conditions, lack of
se r vi ces , etc.
( ii ) T he minimum specification of the
Is l and D evelopment Committee for a S tat e s' loan house is high. For
ex am pl e, for a three-bedroomed
hou se, t he property must include
the f ol lowing -
(1 ) m in imum space of 930 square feet ;
( 2 ) garage;
(3 ) he at ing package; (4 ) dou ble glazing.
( ii i) E xternal landscaping
requi re m ents of the Island
D ev el o pm ent Committee also add to co s t s - not only in terms
o f t he pr ovi sion of hard and
sof t l ands caping features, p ar ki ng, e tc., but also in the v ar i at i on of external house d et a il des igned to make our es t at es more attractive.
A l t hough this report was submitted in 1987, t here is nothing to suggest that
t he s e general considerations have
not iceably changed. We have, however, s ee n a significant reduction in tender
pr ices in recent years following far
m o re competition in the building
i nd ustry for housing contracts.
L and v alues in States' loan
deve lopments cannot be said to be
exce ssive. Properties built for around
£ 90,00 0 to £100,000 have unserviced pl o t values of around £15,000 to
£ 18,00 0. At approximately 16 per cent t o 1 8 per cent of total cost, this
cann ot be said to be unreasonable and w o ul d compare favourably with the cost of l and in the United Kingdom for
s im ilar properties. Plot values for
cat egor y B', or upper market
pr op erties, are determined by market
f or ces as indeed they should be.
My C ommittee keeps these issues under cons tant review, and will continue to do s o.
3 . My Committee has been discussing future hous ing requirements and land
avai lability with the Island
D e vel opment Committee since we took
of fi ce in December 1990.
O u r report Housing: Strategy for the
90' s ', highlighted the shortfall in
s it es to meet known housing
r eq uirements, and the States, on 26th
N o vem ber 1991, approved our proposition to agr ee that sufficient sites need to
be f ound to meet the requirements
i de nt ified in the Island Plan, and
r ev ised in accordance with subsequent
cens us data, for the period 1986-1995'.
S i nc e then, I am aware that the
P l a nning Department has spent
cons iderable time attempting to
i de nt ify suitable sites for rezoning
f or cat egory A' housing. This exercise r em ains unfinished - it is not an easy
t as k. I am satisfied that the Island
D e vel opment Committee is treating it w i t h urgency.
Mor e generally, our Strategy Report expl ained what it sees as the causes of
t he I sland's housing problems and put
f or w ard recommendations for resolving t he s e problems. The only way we will
s ee the end of the worst symptoms of
t he i mbalance in the demand and supply of h ousing (e.g. high rents,
unr easonable landlord practices, high pr ices , waiting lists, etc.), is to
i nc r ease supply whilst continuing to
r es t rict demand. Our proposals are
des igned to do just that. Many have
al r ea dy been approved by the States and ar e i n the process of implementation
( e. g. cha nges to the States' loan and
r en t control schemes); others (e.g.
har monisation of private and public
r en t subsidy schemes) will be debated
i n a fortnight's time.''
Island Plan and Long Beach, Gorey. Questions and answers (Tape No. 127)
Senator Terence John Le Main asked Deputy Harry Hall ewell Baudains of St. Clement , Vice- President of the Island Development Committee the following questions -
1. T he Island Plan recognized Gorey
V i ll a ge a nd the Pier as one of a
num be r of places in the Island of
su ch i m portance that they require
a l eve l of protection over and
ab ove t hat provided by the normal
pl anni ng controls. They are
de s i g nat ed conservation areas. The
Is l and D evelopment Committee is to pr epar e special studies for the
de s i g nat ed conservation areas.
W i l l t he P resident confirm that no
fur ther development of this area
w i ll be al lowed until such time as
the s p eci al study has been
pr epar ed and accepted by the
S tat e s?
2 . Will the President state what
m echan isms, if any, he proposes to
i nt r oduce to improve the handling of
obj ections from the public and to allow t he publ ic to make representations at
ever y stage of the planning process; in par ticular will he state whether it is
pr op osed that a public enquiry should
be he ld on each and every occasion that a pl anning application is made which
devi ates in any respect from the spirit
and i ntention of the Island Plan?
3 . In his statement to the States on
T ues day, 3rd March 1992, the President r ev ealed that his Committee had
negot iated a reduction of the ridge
hei ght for the development at Long
B each , Gorey, from a total height of
38 f eet at the highest point to 30 feet
at t he highest point. Would he explain
how such a significant drop in ridge
hei ght was achievable without in any
w a y di minishing the number of flats
t ha t are being created? Would he
f ur t her explain why he did not
negot iate for the development to
i nc l ude a gap in the site in order to
pr e vent a complete infill of what was
f or m erly open space? And finally would t he P resident confirm that, in view of
t he f act that the drop in ridge height
w i l l not in any way alter the
conf iguration of the Long Beach
deve lopment - in other words the
deve lopment will still consist of the
s am e number of flats as were allowed in t he deve lopment approval granted in
1991 - the States will not be paying
any c ompensation whatsoever to the
deve loper?''
The Vice-President of the Island Development Committee replied as follows -
1. T he first part of the question the
S en at o r is asking is a good one
that r eq uires careful and deep
co ns i der ation by my Committee. I w i l l try to give the Senator an
ini ti a l r eply.
T he I sland Development Committee has s tr ong sympathy for the sentiments
behi nd the question. The Island Plan
di d identify 13 individual areas of the
I sl and as designated conservation
ar eas . Policy BE4 states -
T he I s land Development Committee w i ll pr epare special studies for
the de s ignated Conservation Areas
w hi ch w ill identify the features
w hi ch m ake up the character of the
ar ea, s how how improvements can be m ade , and i ndicate development
opp or t unities. Encouragement and
as s i st a nce will be given for their
im pl em entation.'
My C ommittee has to advise the House of i ts di sappointment that insufficient
pr og ress has been made in implementing t hi s Policy. Often, from public
com ment, the impression is gained that
t he I sland Development Committee has vas t resources to achieve its demanding t as ks . Our conservation team is very
s m al l. With a modest increase it is hoped we could progress with this
i m por tant work much more rapidly.
H o w ever, the second part of the ques tion is not practical. In the
i nt er im I regret that I cannot give the as sur ance the Senator seeks for the
f ol l owing reasons -
( a ) An embargo on all development as the S en ator proposes would prevent ow ner s from carrying out any work on t hei r properties, even that
w hi ch i s fully justified. It would
al s o p r event improvements. Imagine an ow ner of a garage in a
di l a pi da ted state in Gorey, say,
w i shi n g to tidy up his premises -
is i t s ens ible to embargo his
w or k ?
( b ) We have a legal duty to process ap pl i cations and to refuse to do
so w i th out reason would be
co nt r ar y to Law.
My C ommittee is not aware of any
par ticular development within the
cons ervation area of Gorey Village and
P i e r as giving rise to any public
di squi et. If the Senator is referring
t o L ong Beach then I remind him this is out side the area. The reason why it was excl uded was because the group of
bui ldings including the betting shop,
t he B each Hotel and the former Malibu
w e r e all poor quality buildings and the
I sl and Development Committee wanted to s ee them improved.
I t w ould also be unfair to treat one cons ervation area differently from anot her. This can only be carried out pr op erly by the proper application of t he I sland's Planning Law.
I a nt icipate that to complete all
s tudi es properly, given a small
addi tional resource would take two or t hr ee years and we will try to achieve t hi s objective. It is not reasonable to em bar go all developments, these will cont inue to be subject to very tight
s cr ut iny by my Committee.
2 . This is a complex issue, one deserving
of c areful study. My Committee
annou nced its intention two weeks ago
t o r eview the Planning Law and examine t he pr ocess and opportunity for public
r ep resentations. This cannot be
achi eved in two weeks. The Senator asks i f w e propose that all applications
t ha t deviate from the Island Plan will
be r eferred to a public enquiry. The
ans wer is no. There are hundreds of
occa sions every year where planning
appl ications deviate from the Island
P l a n and are rejected by my Committee. D o you w ish to remove the power for the I sl and Development Committee to reject t he m ? I am sure you do not.
O n a m ore supportive note there is a
need to have a process to deal with
t ho se controversial developments which
ar e t he exception - probably no more
t ha n f ive a year. The difficulties we
ant i cipate is how to identify them and
at w hat stage of planning would an
enqui ry take place. Who would initiate
t he r equest for any enquiry? How can
w e guar d against spurious requests? You w i l l already be aware of the two stages
of p lanning - planning and development appl ications. We have been advised that
i n L aw it is difficult for the Island
D e vel opment Committee to sustain a
chan ge after planning permission has
been given. The Long Beach development has highlighted this. Objections were
m ade t oo late in the process, after
pl anni ng permission was given. One idea w e ar e investigating is to extend the
per iod of objection from two-three
w e eks and allow States' Members to
br ing a proposition to the States to
i nv oke a States enquiry in that time.
T he I sland Development Committee would t he n con sider the application in accord
w i t h normal planning criteria and if
m inde d to approve would refer to the enqui ry. Decision-making will require
pr of essional expertise as well as lay
r ep resentation which will have manpower i m pl ications. There are many
pos sibilities how this might be done.
My C ommittee would welcome any ideas t he S enator and other Members of the
H o us e have, and will give them full
cons ideration. We will try to bring
t he s e proposals forward at the earliest
oppor tunity but will not rush to
i nt r oduce ill-considered schemes.
3 . Since my President's statement to the
H o us e on 3rd March 1992 on Long Beach t he P lanning Department have drafted a
not ice of modification under Article 7
of t he Island Planning (Jersey) Law
1964 w hich has been forwarded to the
A t t orney General for his approval. The
ef fec t of this modification is to limit
t he hei ght of the development to
30 f eet. The reduction of the ridge
hei ght to 30 feet was achieved by a
r ed esign of not only the roof but
s ec tions of the 1st floor. That is to
s ay that not only the ridge height was
r ed uced but so too was the eaves
hei ght . The number of flats within the
s che me may not have been reduced in
num ber but there is every possibility
t ha t there will actually be a reduction
i n t he floorspace within the top flats.
D e t ailed drawings have not yet been
s ubm itted in connexion with this aspect
of t he scheme so my Committee cannot be abs olutely firm on that point. If the
not ice is approved by the Attorney
G e ner al and is served by today (which
w e hope it will be) the States will be
l iabl e to a claim for compensation
bei ng s ubmitted within 30 days. The
I sl and Development Committee expect
t ha t the amount of compensation will be
m ini mal. Members of the House will also have received a letter from the
P r es ident of Island Development
C om mittee clarifying the statement and
pr ov iding further information. You will
under stand how my Committee has felt
i nh ibited in its public comments by the
com pensation issue.
I w ould like to remind members of the es sent ial matters -
T he obj ections were received after pl anni ng permission had been
gi ven. As I have already advised you i t i s virtually impossible for m y C om mittee in Law to resist
gr ant ing a development consent af t e r pr eviously approving
pl anni ng permission.
T he m ajority of the objections
m ade t o my Committee referred to the he i ght of the buildings,
w hi ls t a s mall minority to the
ope n vi ew'. The House needs to kno w t hat during the negotiations w i th t he ow ner, which took place im m edi ately following the States de bat e on 18 th February, the
Is l and D evelopment Committee rai sed bo th the issue of the
bui l d ing' s height and the
rew or ki ng of the site plan in
or der t o retain the open aspect of the s i te. T his second part was
ab andone d because of both the
w or k s t hat had taken place on site w hi ch co uld not be reversed at
that t im e and because of the
fi na nci al implications. The height w as t he major concern of most
S tat e s' Members which is why my C om m ittee decided to modify
co ns ent . The implications of
m odi fyi ng the permit to restore ope n s pace would have reduced the 14 f la t s which were approved to
fi ve uni ts, a loss of nine units
to t h e I sland. I remind the
S en at o r that these are (a)-(h)
hou si n g units. The potential claim for c om pensation which also could ar i se w as estimated at potentially ex ceed ing £2 million. As I have
de m on strated, my Committee did inves ti gate the open view'
m odi fi cation requested but it
w oul d hav e been irresponsible to ha ve put into effect such a
m odi fi cation.
In t he s e circumstances if we had m odi fi ed extensively in the way the S en ator now requests, it is
li ke ly t he applicant would have su cces sfully appealed to the Royal C our t a nd had the decision
ove r t ur ned as well as incurring
co m pe nsation.
T hi s w ould have hardly been in the Is l and' s interests.''
Distinguished visitor - welcome
The Bailiff welcomed to the States Mr. Marmaduke Hussey, Chairman of the British Broadcasting Corporation.
Free movement of European Community nationals. Question and answer (Tape No. 127)
Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asked Deputy Michael Adam Wavell of St. Saviour , President of the Defence Committee the following question -
31st December 1992 is the date set by the
E uropean Community by when it is envisaged t hat the internal market will have been
c ompleted, allowing for the free movement
o f goods, persons, services and capital.
( This in accordance with Article 8A of the
T reaty).
J ersey forms part of the Common Travel Area a nd European Community nationals exercising t heir rights of free movement will be free
t o enter Jersey from the United Kingdom
m ainland and the Republic of Ireland
w ithout immigration control.
I n the light of this, does the Defence
C ommittee intend bringing in any measures t o restrict the entry of undesirables or
d estitute passengers transiting via the
U nited Kingdom to the Islands to seek
w ork?''
The President of the Defence Committee replied as follows -
I confirm that 31st December 1992 is the
d ate set by the European Community for the c ompletion of the internal market. It is my
u nderstanding that notwithstanding this
a greed timetable, H.M. Government has
a lways maintained that the most effective
m ethod for it to control illegal
i mmigration and the movement of drugs is as i ts borders, and that this is not in
c ontravention of the Treaty.
J ersey, although not an EC member, has for a ll practical purposes to follow the line
a dopted by H.M. Government given the
e xistence of the common travel area (CTA) a nd the consequent freedom of movement in t he CTA for all travellers irrespective of
n ationality.
T he CTA has existed for a long time and t here has since its inception been freedom
o f movement within it for all
n ationalities. This has benefitted Island
r esidents and particularly our Tourism
i ndustry; to introduce a frontier control, w hich is what the Deputy appears to be
s uggesting, would be in conflict with the p rinciple of the CTA.
P assengers of all nationalities, including B ritish citizens, are regularly screened at a ll domestic points of entry and where
c ases of destitution are discovered, the
a ppropriate action is taken. (This can be p resentation at court or the obtaining of
f unds from a relative to pay for the return f are to the mainland).
T here is no evidence at present that the
U nited Kingdom is being used by undesirable
o r destitute EC nationals to transit to
J ersey, and the Defence Committee has no
p lans to introduce extra controls at its
d omestic points of entry.
N o doubt the Deputy will recall that at the S tates debate on 17th December 1991 the
P olicy and Resources Committee was given t he task of preparing the Protection of
E mployment Opportunities Law for
i mplementation should the States see fit. I a m informed that the Policy and resources C ommittee is giving active consideration to t his matter.''
Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme: Committee of Management Membership
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Establishment Committee and in accordance with Regulation 3(2) of the Public Employees (Contributory Retirement Scheme) (General) (Jersey) Regulations 1989, approved the appointment of Deputy D.L. Crespel as a Member of the Committee of Management for the remainder of the period ending 31st December 1994, in
place of Senator Corrie Stein.
Manual Workers' Joint Council: Employers' Side Membership
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Establishment Committee and in accordance with an Act of the States dated 9th November 1961 concerning the membership of the Manual Workers' Joint Council, approved the nomination of Deputy M.A. Wavell to serve as a Member of the Employers' Side, in place of Deputy F.H. Walker .
Licensing (No. 5) (Jersey) Regulations 1992. P.24/92 and P.29/92
THE STATES, in pursuance of Article 92 of the Licensing (Jersey) Law 1974, as amended made Regulations entitled the Licensing (No. 5) (Jersey) Regulations 1992.
Pilotage (General Provisions) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Regulations 1992. P.25/92
THE STATES, in pursuance of Article 2 of the Pilotage (Jersey) Law 1988 made Regulations entitled the Pilotage (General Provisions) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Regulations 1992.
Channel Islands Air Search: grant for replacement aircraft. P.26/92
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Finance and Economics Committee agreed to make a grant of £40,000 to the Channel Islands Air
Search towards the cost of a replacement
aircraft.
Building Loans (Amendment No. 11) (Jersey) Law 1992. P.27/92
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council adopted a Law entitled the Building Loans (Amendment No. 11) (Jersey) Law 1992.
Petroleum-Spirit (Control) (Jersey) Regulations 1992. P.28/92
THE STATES, by virtue and in exercise of the powers conferred on them by the Order in Council of the fourteenth day of April 1884 made Regulations entitled the Petroleum-Spirit (Control) (Jersey) Regulations 1992.
THE STATES rose at 12.05 p.m.
R .S . G R A Y G r ef fi e r of the States.