This content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost. Let us know if you find any major problems.
Text in this format is not official and should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments. Please see the PDF for the official version of the document.
THE STATES assembled on Thursday,
21st November 2002 at 9.30 a.m. under the Presidency of Michael Nelson de la Haye, Esquire, Greffier of the States.
All members were present with the exception of -
S e nator Corrie Stein - out of the Island
S h irley Margaret Baudains, Deputy of St. Helier - out of the Island R o bin Charles Hacquoil, Deputy of St. Peter - out of the Island
Prayers read by the Greffier of the States
Acting Greffier of the States
The Greffier of the States informed the Assembly that in accordance with Article 5(2) of the Departments of the Judiciary and the Legislature (Jersey) Law 1965, as amended, the Bailiff had appointed the Assistant Greffier of the States, Mr. David Charles Guy Filipponi, to discharge the functions of the Greffier of the States and the Deputy Greffier of the States in the event of their absence or incapacity and had that morning administered the appropriate oath to Mr. Filipponi in accordance with the provisions of Article 7(2) of the Law.
Machinery of Government: structure of the Executive - P.191/2002. Comments P.191/2002 Com., Com.(2), Com.(3). Amendments P.191/2002 Amd. and
Comments P.191/2002 Amd.Com.
THE STATES resumed consideration of the proposition of the Policy and Resources Committee on the Machinery of Government: structure of the Executive and rejected an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that at the end of sub-paragraph (iv), there be inserted the words-
" ex c e p t that in paragraph 4.2 of the Appendix, for the words In Council, the Chief Minister will invite' there shall be substituted the words The Council of Ministers shall elect';"
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (19)
Senators
Le Maistre, Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire.
Connétable s
Grouville , St. Martin, St. Mary, St. John, St. Peter, Trinity . Deputies
Breckon(S), St. John, St. Ouen, G. Baudains(C), Dorey(H), Troy (B), Bridge(H), Martin(H), Southern (H)
"Contre" (29)
Senators
Horsfall, Bailhache , Norman, Walker , Le Sueur, Lakeman.
St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Brelade, St. Lawrence, St. Clement. Deputies
H. Baudains(C), St. Mary, Trinity , Duhamel(S), Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), St. Martin Le Main(H), Vibert (B), Dubras(L), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S), Farnham (S), Le Hérissier(S), Ozouf (H Fox(H).
THE STATES rejected an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that -
f o r paragraph 4.3 of the Appendix there shall be substituted the following paragraph - A Minister may
have assistant ministers, who shall be elected members of the States, to help with the running of his or her department, provided that the total number of assistant ministers shall not exceed 8. A Minister may choose his or her own assistant minister, such choice being commensurate with the legal responsibility for decision-making resting with individual ministers who are to be legally accountable for their own areas of government'.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (10)
Senators
Le Maistre, Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire. Connétable
Grouville .
Deputies
Breckon(S), G. Baudains(C), Le Hérissier(S), Martin(H), Southern (H).
"Contre" (40)
Senators
Horsfall, Quérée, Bailhache , Norman, Walker , Le Sueur, Lakeman. Connétable s
St. Martin, St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Brelade, St. Lawrence, St. Mary, St. John, St. Peter, St. Clem St. Helier, Trinity .
Deputies
H. Baudains(C), St. Mary, Trinity , Duhamel(S), Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), St. Martin St. John, Le Main(H), Vibert (B), Dubras(L), St. Ouen, Dorey(H), Troy (B), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S) Farnham (S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H), Bridge(H).
THE STATES rejected an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that at the end of sub-paragraph (vi), there be inserted the words -
except that in paragraph 6.2 of the Appendix for the wordsIt is likely, however, that this will be a rare occurrence.' there be substituted the words and there shall be no more than eight assistant ministers.'
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (13)
Senators
Le Maistre, Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire. Connétable
Grouville .
Deputies
H. Baudains(C), Duhamel(S), Breckon(S), St. John, G. Baudains(C), Bridge(H), Martin(H), Southern (H) "Contre" (37)
Senators
Horsfall, Quérée, Bailhache , Norman, Walker , Le Sueur, Lakeman. Connétable s
St. Martin, St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Brelade, St. Lawrence, St. Mary, St. John, St. Peter, St. Clem St. Helier, Trinity .
Deputies
St. Mary, Trinity , Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), St. Martin, Le Main(H), Vibert (B Dubras(L), St. Ouen, Dorey(H), Troy (B), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S), Farnham (S), Le Hérissier(S Ozouf (H), Fox(H).
THE STATES adopted an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that at the end of sub-paragraph (v), there be inserted the words -
e x ce p t that in paragraph 5.6 of the Appendix after the words replacement minister.' there be inserted the
words The revised Standing Orders of the States of Jersey shall include provision to enable the Assembly, when considering the appointment of the replacement minister, to be able to discuss any matter concerning the dismissal.'
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (26)
Senators
Le Maistre, Bailhache , Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire.
Connétable s
Grouville , St. Martin, St. Lawrence, St. Mary, St. John, St. Clement, Trinity . Deputies
Duhamel(S), Breckon(S), Huet(H), St. Martin, St. John, Vibert (B), St. Ouen, G. Baudains(C), Dorey(H Troy (B), Le Hérissier(S), Bridge(H), Martin(H), Southern (H).
"Contre" (24) Senators
Horsfall, Quérée, Norman, Walker , Le Sueur, Lakeman.
St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Brelade, St. Peter, St. Helier. Deputies
H. Baudains(C), St. Mary, Trinity , Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Le Main(H), Dubras(L), Voisin(L Scott Warr en(S), Farnham (S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H).
THE STATES adopted an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that -
i n paragraph 6.3 of the Appendix after the wordHowever' for the words the Chief Minister may invite',
there should be substituted the words a minister may ask'.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (26) Senators
Le Maistre, Bailhache , Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire.
Connétable s
Grouville , St. Martin, St. Brelade, St. Mary, St. John, St. Clement, Trinity .
Deputies
H. Baudains(C), Duhamel(S), Breckon(S), Huet(H), St. Martin, St. John, Le Main(H), Vibert (B St. Ouen, G. Baudains(C), Troy (B), Le Hérissier(S), Martin(H), Southern (H).
"Contre" (24)
Senators
Horsfall, Quérée, Norman, Walker , Le Sueur, Le Claire, Lakeman. Connétable s
St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Lawrence, St. Peter, St. Helier. Deputies
St. Mary, Trinity , Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Dubras(L), Dorey(H), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S) Farnham (S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H), Bridge(H).
THE STATES adopted an amendment of Senator Stuart Syvret that at the end of sub-paragraph (vii), there be inserted the words -
e x ce p t that in the third bullet point of paragraph 7.2 of the Appendix the wordsThe programme will be a
development of the strategic policies in place at that time.' shall be deleted.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (35)
Senators
Horsfall, Le Maistre, Syvret, Walker , Kinnard, Le Sueur, Le Claire.
Grouville , St. Martin, St. Ouen, St. Brelade, St. Mary, St. John, St. Peter, St. Helier, Trinity . Deputies
Duhamel(S), Routier(H), Breckon(S), St. Martin, St. John, Le Main(H), Vibert (B), St. Ouen, G. Bauda (C), Dorey(H), Troy (B), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S), Le Hérissier(S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H), Bridge(H) Martin(H), Southern (H).
"Contre" (15)
Senators
Quérée, Bailhache , Norman, Lakeman.
Connétable s
St. Saviour, St. Lawrence, St. Clement.
Deputies
H. Baudains(C), St. Mary, Trinity , Layzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), Dubras(L), Farnham (S).
THE STATES adopting a proposition of the Policy and Resources Committee, as amended, referred to their Act dated 28th September 2001, in which they approved reforms to the Machinery of Government and -
( a ) agreed that the executive function of government should be structured as set out in the Appendix to the
report of the Policy and Resources Committee dated 21st October 2002 in relation to the following matters, namely -
(i ) th e Council of Ministers;
(i i) th e appointment of the Chief Minister and ministers, except that paragraph 2.5 should be deleted
and subsequent paragraphs renumbered accordingly;
(i i i) t he Chief Minister, except that in paragraph 3.1 after the words circulated for' there should be
inserted the word public', and after the word consultation,' there should be inserted the words subjected to the States scrutiny function,';
(i v ) t he Minister;
( v ) the dismissal and replacement of ministers, except that in paragraph 5.6 after the words
replacement minister.' there should be inserted the words The revised Standing Orders of the States of Jersey shall include provision to enable the Assembly, when considering the appointment of the replacement minister, to be able to discuss any matter concerning the dismissal.;
(v i ) t he Assistant Minister, except that in paragraph 6.3 after the wordHowever' for the words the
Chief Minister may invite' there should be substituted a minister may ask; and
( v ii ) policy formulation, except that in the third bullet point of paragraph 7.2 the words The
programme will be a development of the strategic policies in place at that time.' should be deleted;
a n d varied their decision of 28th September 2001 accordingly;
( b ) directed the Privileges and Procedures Committee in accordance with the Act of the States of 26th
March 2002, to incorporate the matters set out in the said Appendix, where appropriate, in the revised States of
Jersey Law and the Standing Orders of the States of Jersey.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (42)
Senators
Horsfall, Le Maistre, Quérée, Bailhache , Walker , Kinnard, Le Sueur, Lakeman. Connétable s
Grouville , St. Martin, St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Brelade, St. Lawrence, St. Mary, St. John, St. P St. Clement, St. Helier, Trinity .
Deputies
H. Baudains(C), St. Mary, Trinity , Duhamel(S), Routier(H), Layzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), St. Martin Le Main(H), Vibert (B), Dubras(L), St. Ouen, Dorey(H), Troy (B), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S Le Hérissier(S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H), Bridge(H), Martin(H).
"Contre" (4)
Senators
Syvret, Le Claire. Deputies
St. John, G. Baudains(C).
As an aide memoire the Appendix to the report of the Policy and Resources Committee dated 21st October 2002, as amended, is reproduced immediately after this set of minutes.
Deputy of St. Peter- attendance
The Deputy of St. Peter, having returned to the Island, arrived in the Chamber after the lunch adjournment prior to consideration of proposition of the Planning and Environment Committee concerning Planning and Building Core Service: strategy for future funding and was present for the remainder of the meeting.
Planning and Building Core Service: strategy for future funding - P.203/2002
THE STATES commenced consideration of a proposition of the Planning and Environment Committee on Planning and Building core services: strategy for future funding, and rejected a proposition of Deputy Michael Edward Vibert of St. Brelade to move to consideration of the next item on the Order Paper.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (10)
Senator
Bailhache . Connétable
St. Peter.
Routier(H), St. Martin, Vibert (B), G. Baudains(C), Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S), Farnham (S), Ozouf (H).
"Contre" (22)
Senators
Quérée, Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire.
Connétable s
St. Ouen, St. Mary, St. John, St. Clement, St. Helier. Deputies
H. Baudains(C), Trinity , Duhamel(S), Layzell(B), Breckon(S), Huet(H), St. John, St. Peter, Dubras(L St. Ouen, Dorey(H), Fox(H), Bridge(H).
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Planning and Environment Committee -
( a ) approved, with effect from January 2003, a user-pays' strategy and agreed that income from fees for
applications for development and building permission should be used to fund the cost of services provided by the Planning and Environment Committee;
(b ) agreed that, as soon as practicable, the Department of Planning and Building Services should be
established as an independent business unit as an initial step towards achieving this strategy;
( c ) agreed that the strategy should be implemented from January 2003 through the appointment of additional
professional and administrative staff to improve the Planning and Environment Committee's core services, with the increased costs of doing so to be funded wholly by increases in application fees agreed by the Finance and Economics Committee, and with the creation of additional posts to be subject to the approval of the Human Resources Committee;
( d ) (i) agreed, in principle, that to enable the Planning and Building (Jersey) Law 2002 to be brought into
force, there should be further increases in fees to enable the Planning and Building Services Department to carry out its additional responsibilities;
(i i) a g reed, in principle, that additional revenue funding should be made available, subject to the States'
revenue spending priority process, to fund the operation of the independent Planning and Building Appeals Commission which was to be established in accordance with the provisions of the Planning and Building (Jersey) Law 2002; and
( e ) agreed that the new Environment and Public Services Committee to be appointed in December 2002
should, in consultation with other Committees as appropriate, assess the feasibility of establishing a Planning and Building Agency, and should report to the States on this matter as soon as practicable.
Members present voted as follows -
"Pour" (26)
Senators
Quérée, Norman, Walker .
Connétable s
St. Ouen, St. Saviour, St. Lawrence, St. John, St. Clement, St. Helier.
H. Baudains(C), Trinity , Duhamel(S), Routier(H), Layzell(B), Breckon(S), Huet(H), St. Peter, Dubras(L) St. Ouen, Voisin(L), Scott Warr en(S), Farnham (S), Le Hérissier(S), Ozouf (H), Fox(H), Bridge(H).
"Contre" (11)
Senators
Bailhache , Syvret, Kinnard, Le Claire. Connétable s
St. Mary, St. Peter.
Deputies
St. John, Vibert (B), G. Baudains(C), Dorey(H), Martin(H). THE STATES rose at 5.25 p.m.
D .C .G . F I L I P P O N I
Assistant Greffier of the States.
APPENDIX
Machinery of Government: structure of the Executive - P.191/2002, as amended.
- T h e CouncilofMinisters
- T h e Council of Ministerswillmeetforthe purpose oftaking decisions, and for directing, regulating and co-ordinating theexecutivebusinessofgovernment.
- T h e membershipoftheCouncilof Ministers will consist of the Chief Minister andtheother ministers. The Councilmayalsobeattended, from time to time, by assistant ministers, headsofdepartments,or other officers as required.
- T h e Attorney General will be entitled to attend all meetings of the Council to provide legal or constitutional advice, but will not have a vote.Inattending the meetingsof the Council the role of the Attorney General will beto defend the interests of the States as a whole,as well as to advise the Council on specific matters.
- T h e Council's responsibilities will include the fo llowing -
• T o consider any issue with major social, economic, environmental, political or constitutional policy implications.
• T o consider any matter involving the credit, cohesion or standing of the government.
• T o develop a strategic policy programme within four months of taking office, for consideration by the States.
• T o prepare and publish an annual Business Plan for consideration by the States.
• T o prepare and publish an annual budget for consideration by the States.
• T o consider all proposals for the preparation of legislation, to consider legislation before it is presented to the States, and, where appropriate, to consider proposals for subordinate legislation.
• T o examine legislation, or proposals relating to legislation, emanating from the United Kingdom and the European Union, insofar as these may affect the Island's interests.
• T o consider all propositions from private members in case a comment to the States is necessary.
- T h e appointmentof the Chief Minister andministers
- T h e Chief Minister will derive hisor her authority from the States and it is therefore important that there should beclearly-established procedures for his or her appointment.
- I t is proposed that any States member seeking appointment as Chief Minister should first submit a nomination paper to the Greffier of the States, to be signed by six serving membersof the States, and accompanied by a written statement in which the candidatesets out her or his vision of the general direction of policy.
- T h e successful candidate must poll more than half of the votescast.If none of the candidates achieves this majority, a second ballot will be held but only after a shortadjournmentto allow members time to considerhow they wish to vote in the secondround (and soon,untilthe required levelof more than 50% is achieved). In each round the lowest polling candidate will drop out until an absolute majority is reached.
- F o llowinghisor her election, the Chief Minister will come back to the States with nominations for the Council of Ministers. Whenproposing the Council members, the Chief Minister will nominate each candidate as the head of a designated department. The States will then voteon the composition of the Council as an entity andit will notbe open to members to express theirdispleasureat the inclusionofone particular minister exceptby voting against the whole proposal. If this happens, the Chief Minister will return totheHouse with alternative proposals following anadjournment.The States will then vote on these revised proposals.
- T h e Chief Minister
- T h e Chief Minister will take special responsibility for theformulation, execution and monitoring of the Island's strategic policy programme. This document will be formulated by the Council of Ministers, circulated for public consultation, subjected to the States scrutiny function, and lodged au Greffe' within four monthsoftheCouncil's election, for debate by the States as soon aspossible thereafter.
- T h e ChiefMinisterwillbethe chairman of the Councilof Ministers and will determine its agenda and place and time ofmeeting.
- T h e Chief Minister will have his/her own department - the Chief Minister's Department - which be responsible for, inter alia, -
• co rporate strategy and policy;
• th e general performance and activities of the Executive as a whole;
• th e external relations of the Island;
• g enerally supporting the Council of Ministers, and in this capacity preparing and circulating to ministers a record of the decisions taken at Council meetings.
- T h is department will be headed by the Chief Executive to the Council of Ministers. In addition to ensuring that theCouncilreceivesproper administrative support, the ChiefExecutive will be the principal adviser to the Chief Minister andCouncilof Ministers. Heorshe will alsochair a corporatemanagement board, comprising the headsof all the departments of the executive. In this capacity,the Chief Executive will be ultimately accountable for the good managementof the public service, and heorshe will leadand direct his orher colleagues insofar as necessary to ensure the efficient managementandimplementation of the CouncilofMinisters' functions, responsibilities and decisions.
- T h e Minister
- E a chdepartmentofthe States will beunder the direction and control of a minister.
- In Council, the Chief Minister will invite one oftheministersto act as Deputy Chief Minister, and that minister will beexpectedto fulfil the duties of the Chief Minister in his/her absence.
- A minister willbe entitled to haveup to two assistant ministers to help with the running of his or her department, but the appointmentofthese assistant ministers mustbe carried outinclose consultation with the Chief Minister. Ministers will put forward names for consideration by the Chief Minister, and only when theseareagreed will they approach the Statesmember concerned.
- L e gal authority for decision-making in particular areas of government should rest with individual ministers, in line with their departmental responsibilities, whilst the responsibility for taking general policy decisions (e.g. those affecting more than one ministry), and for the overall policy aim of departments,shouldrestwith the CouncilofMinisters.Ministers will therefore be legally accountable for
their own areas of government.
- T h ereshouldbe the facility for thepowerof delegation from one minister toanotherinorder to cover for periods ofabsence.The procedures for delegation will need tocover such eventualities as theprolonged absence of a minister due tosickness, and the deathof a minister whilst in office.
- A s with the CouncilofMinisters,itisimportant that there should be proper standard arrangements for the recording of ministerial decisions. Ministers (and assistant ministers) will normally beaskedto take decisions based upon a shortpaperprepared by officers of their department.The officers will berequired to produce a standard form of concise minutewhen formally recording an executive decision, thereby ensuring that a properrecordexistsofthedecisionstaken.
- T h e dismissalandreplacementofministers
- A minister mayresign for a numberofreasons, totally unrelated to thebusinessofgovernment.Itis essential that this possibility is allowed for and that the replacement ministercanbeappointedwithout significant problems.
- T h e States Assembly should not be able to debate a vote of confidence in an individual minister.The minister is a memberof a team (the Councilof Ministers) and it would be inappropriate to challenge one memberof that teamfor matters that relate to the team as a whole.On that basis, therefore, the new States of Jersey Law should facilitate a proposition of no confidence in the Council of Ministers, but not individual ministers. Thereshouldbe a requirement in Standing Orders that any such proposition should have the signatures of a givennumber of States members.
- H o wever, if itbecomes clear that a minister has lost the confidenceof the States Assembly, the Chief Minister has a numberofchoices.Heor she may support the minister andseek to rally the Councilof Ministers to his or her support; as a result there may be changes to policy orwhatever and this maybe enough to satisfy the critics. Supportinganunpopular minister, however, runs the risk of a vote ofno confidence in the Councilof Ministers.
- If t he Chief Minister finds that theCouncilofMinistershasalso lost confidencein the minister, heorshe may ask the ministerto resign. In that eventuality, againthe critics maybe satisfied and the Councilof Ministers will seek a replacement.
- If the minister refuses to resign, the Chief Minister shouldbe able toask the Councilof Ministers to endorse his or her proposed dismissal of the minister. The Chief Minister shouldnothave this poweron his or her own.
- If theCouncilof Ministers endorses a decisiontodismisstheminister,the minister wouldberemoved from the Council. However, the Chief Minister would have togotothe States Assembly to nominate the replacement minister. The revised Standing Ordersof the States of Jersey shall include provision to enable theAssembly, when consideringtheappointmentofthereplacement minister, to be able to discuss any matter concerning the dismissal.
- U n der these arrangements the States Assembly will retain the power to appointnew ministers andthe ultimate sanction of a vote ofnoconfidence.Thesetwopowers alone are sufficient to keep the Councilof Ministers in check,whilstnot creating a situation wherebytheCouncil of Ministers is prevented from resolving areas ofdispute.
- T h e Assistant Minister
- F o r the day-to-day operation of a department, a minister may choose to allocate specific areas of responsibility to assistant ministers, but all assistantministerswillbedischarging their responsibilities in the nameof the minister. The areas of allocation will besetoutinadvance,and these may include specific decision-makingpowers.Thenew States of Jersey Law will need to make provision for the
delegation of specific decision-making powers to assistant ministers.
- In order to maintain the executive at a manageable size, and alsoto have regard to the overall balance between the executive and scrutiny functions, it is proposed that assistant ministersshouldbe able to serve more than onedepartment.Itis likely, however, that this will be a rareoccurrence.
- A s sistant ministers will not normally attend the Council of Ministers. If a minister is unavoidably absent for a discussion on a matter concerning his or her department,heorshe will ordinarily ask another minister to present the item.However, a Minister mayask an assistant minister tobepresentifheorshe has a particular expertiseinthe subject underdiscussion.
- P o l icy formulation
- O n e of the key features of the ministerialsystem is thecreation of an Executive, theCouncil of Ministers, to ensure that thepolicies decided by the States are put into effect.
- A s a guidetohowpolicies will bedevelopedunder the ministerial system of government, it is proposed that the process of policy developmentwould be asfollows -
• D uring elections, candidates for the States will set out their manifestos for the public to consider and the success or otherwise of each candidate will be determined, in part, on those policies espoused.
• T he first task of the newly elected States Assembly will be the election of the Chief Minister.
• T he candidates for Chief Minister will put forward a programme of policy objectives. It is probable
that this programme will be developed in conjunction with other States' members and will reflect a consensual approach to solving the issues of the day, but will no doubt draw upon the election manifestos of those elected members. The consensual nature of this approach will, of necessity, lead to some manifesto proposals being compromised or changed, but there will clearly be an advantage to the most successful candidates in the election to argue for their policy proposals.
• T he successful candidate for the post of Chief Minister will then be expected to put together a team of
ministers whose job will be to put into place the programme proposed by the Chief Minister. One of the first tasks for the Council of Ministers, within four months of its election, will be to bring forward a strategic policy programme for consideration by the States.
• T here would be nothing to prevent further review of the strategic policy framework during the period
of office of the Council of Ministers. Indeed it is likely that some policy development will take considerable time. These changes to the strategic policies would be subject to further debate by the Assembly.
• E very year the Council will publish a Business Plan for debate no later than September. The Business Plan will describe the proposals which are intended for consideration by the States during the year ahead, as well as setting out an indication of general spending priorities.
• T he Council of Ministers will subsequently present its annual Budget proposals to the States for debate in December. The Budget document will reflect the general spending priorities agreed by the States in their debate on the Business Plan.
• S ufficient provision will be made during this process for the proper scrutiny of the strategic policy programme, the Business Plan, and the annual Budget.