PPC Minutes 3rd October 2003

KML/PH/287  116

PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE (18th Meeting)

3rd October 2003

PART A

All members were present, with the exception of Deputies F.J. Hill, B.E.M. and R.G. Le Hérissier, from whom apologies had been received.

Senator C.G.P. Lakeman Connétable D.F. Gray Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en Deputy J-A. Bridge Deputy J.A. Bernstein

In attendance -

M.N. de la Haye, Greffier of the States

D.C.G. Filipponi, Assistant Greffier of the States (for a time) Mrs J. Marshall, Senior Executive Officer

Ms P. Staley, Law Draftsman (for a time)

R.W. Whitehead, Principal Legal Adviser (for a time)

Mrs K.M. Larbalestier, Acting Committee Clerk.

Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A and Part B.

Minutes A1.  The  Minutes  of  the  meeting  held  on  19th  September  2003,  having  been previously circulated, were taken as read and were confirmed.

Privileges and A2.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A4(c) of 19th September 2003, Procedures noted that the Department of Property Services had agreed that members could use Committee - the room adjacent to the Peirson Room as an office.

Committee room,

Morier House. The Committee was advised that an annual rental of £3,200 was charged for this 1060/214/1 room. This sum had already been paid for the current year by the previous user, the

(46) Law Officers' Department. A computer with access to the States of Jersey network and a printer would be made available for members' use together with two telephone

Ex.Off. lines.

P.R.C.C.

P.R.E.O. The Committee agreed that members should be provided with a security access card C.E., P&R in order that they could make use of the room at any time.

The Committee was of the view that, having secured accommodation for use by its own members, it would wish to encourage other States Committees to do the same in order that members could keep confidential papers in the relevant departments.

The Greffier of the States was requested to send a copy of this Act to the Policy and Resources Committee.

Shadow Scrutiny. A3.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A6 of 19th September 2003, 465/1(31) received a note of the meeting of Presidents, held on 28th September 2003, attended

by Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier representing the Committee.

Ex.Off.

Pub.Ed. The Committee was advised that the above meeting had considered a copy of the States (2) report on the implementation of Shadow Scrutiny. The Committee considered the

comments made thereon and agreed, as follows -

1. t hattheChairmenoftheShadow Scrutiny Panelsshouldbeselected from the whole Assembly;
2. t hattheStates should berequested to confirm thatPresidentsof States Committeesshouldnot sit onShadow Scrutiny Panels;
3. t hatmembersofthe Privileges andProceduresCommitteeshould not also bemembersof Shadow Scrutiny Panels. Thosemembers whowished to serve onPanelsshouldresign from the Privileges and ProceduresCommittee. Those memberspresent agreed to this; and
4. t hat training shouldbeavailable to all States members.

The Committee noted the comments made in relation to the selection procedure for the appointment of members to the Shadow Scrutiny Panels and agreed that it would not be appropriate for members of the Committee to serve on Shadow Scrutiny Panels because of the Committee's monitoring role.

The Committee received and approved a draft copy of a letter to be sent to all States members requesting expressions of interest in being a member of a Shadow Scrutiny Panel.

The  Committee  discussed  the  issue  of  Shadow  Scrutiny  Panels  benefiting  from parliamentary privileges and noted that there was a need to identify a mechanism for this. It requested that the Greffier of the States explore the same with the Principal Legal Adviser.

The Committee received a revised copy of the report on the proposed arrangements for Shadow Scrutiny and agreed that it should be presented to the States as a Rapport et Correspondence. The Greffier of the States was directed to take the necessary action.

States of Jersey A4.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A7 of 19th September 2003, Law 200-: received Ms. P. Staley, Law Draftsman, and Mr. R.W. Whitehead, Principal Legal revised draft. Adviser, to discuss the latest revised draft of the new States of Jersey Law.

450/1(1)

The Committee considered the draft law and agreed/discussed the following -

A.G.

Ex.Off.   t h at the apostrophe after States' Greffe should be removed (this had L.D. occurred as a result of the translation from French to English of the

original name of the Department and was not commonly used);

th e Committee discussed the preamble and considered some proposed amendments  to  the  same.  Members  received  two  papers  from  Mr. Whitehead relating to the purpose of the preamble, one prepared by G.C. Thornton, OBE, QC, MA, LLB, Barrister and Solicitor and the other prepared  by  F.A.R.  Bennion  MA  (Oxon),  Barrister.  Mr.  Whitehead explained that it was generally accepted that the preamble stated the purpose of the legislation. It was uncommon for the preamble to make a statement. Mr. Whitehead stated that whilst he was not advising the

Committee against making a statement of facts in the preamble, if the

Committee decided to proceed in this manner careful consideration had to be given to the content of the same. The Committee agreed that the President and Vice President should discuss this matter with H.M. Attorney General and, in the interim, the preamble would be removed from the draft;

M s . Staley agreed to consider whether the issue of codification should be

referred to in the new law.

The Committee then considered the various Articles under each part of the draft Law making the following key decisions -

P a r t 1 Article (1) - the Committee agreed that the reference to the

definition of a "stranger" meaning "any person other than the Deputy Bailiff , a member of the States, the Greffier of the States, the Deputy Greffier of the States or the Viscount" should also include any person appointed as Acting Greffier under Article 40 of the draft States of Jersey Law 200-. The Committee was also mindful of the fact that the position of Viscount was currently vacant;

P a r t 2 Article 2 (1) - the Committee discussed the constitution of the

States and the inclusion of unelected members. It noted that a member of the Assembly had declared the intention to lodge "au Greffe" a report and proposition, the purpose of which was to seek the approval of the States to the removal of the Dean of Jersey from the constitution;

P a r t 2 Article 3 (1) - the Committee discussed the Presidency of the

States and, in particular, the person chosen by the Bailiff to preside over meetings of the States Assembly in the absence of the Bailiff or Deputy Bailiff . It was agreed that the President and Vice President should discuss this particular issue with the Bailiff ;

P a r t 2 Articles 7 and 8 - the Committee decided to delete 7(b)(i) which

stipulated that a person had to be Jersey born to qualify for the offices of Senator and Deputy . It discussed replacing the aforementioned with the requirement that a person could qualify for the offices of Senator or Deputy if they were qualified to be on the Register of those eligible to vote, in accordance with the Public Elections Law. The Committee also agreed that paid Police Officers should be specified as being disqualified from standing;

P a r t 4 Article 18 - the Committee noted and approved amendments

proposed by Ms. Staley.

P a r t 4 Article 19(8) - the Committee agreed that the 8 week period

stipulated in this article would be inappropriate in the case of a vote of no confidence

P a r t 4 Article 26 - the Committee noted a proposal to include a

provision for Ministers to hold immovable property. It was agreed that further consideration would have to be given to this particular issue.

P a r t 7 Article 43 (3)(a) - the Committee noted that the constitution of the Public Accounts Committee had not been included in P79/2003 and

it agreed that it would wish this information to be included in the draft

Law. The Senior Executive Officer was directed to liaise with Ms. Staley in

this connexion. It was also agreed to reverse the order of Article 43(2) sub-sections (b) and (c).

The Committee expressed its appreciation for the work carried out to date on the draft Law by Ms. Staley and Mr. Whitehead. It agreed to delegate authority to the President and Vice President to approve an amended draft to be forwarded to the Policy and Resources and Finance and Economics Committees for comment.

Committee A5.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A5 of 19th September 2003, Statements - considered a paper, dated 29th September 2003, prepared by the Greffier of the possible States, regarding the possibility of amending Standing Orders to enable questions to amendment to be asked following Committee statements in the States Assembly.

Standing Orders.

1240/4(155) The  Committee  was  advised  that  there  was,  currently,  no  provision  in  standing

Orders either to prevent or to allow questioning on a Committee statement.

Ex.Off.

G.O.S. In order to achieve the proposed change the Committee was advised that references P.R.C.C. to statements in Standing Order 6A could be removed and that Standing Order 16 C.E., P&R could be replaced with a new three part Standing Order. The advice of the Greffier of P.R.E.O. the States was that this could be done quite easily and quickly.

Following careful consideration of the above the Committee concluded that as the new Standing Orders, which would come into force on the commencement of the ministerial system of government, would correct all currently anomalies it would not be in the interests of good government to make piecemeal changes. Therefore, the Committee decided to advise the Policy and Resources Committee that it could not support the proposed changes to Standing Orders. The Senior Executive Officer was requested  to  write  to  the  President  of  the  Policy  and  Resources  Committee confirming the Committee's decision.

The Committee requested that the Greffier of the States send a copy of this Act to the Policy and Resources Committee.

Code of Practice A6.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A8 of 19th September 2003, on Public Access received  an  oral  update  report  from  the  Vice  President  on  the  draft  report  and to Official proposition  regarding  proposals  to  improve  the  implementation  of  the  Code  of Information - Practice on Public access to Official Information.

draft report and

proposition. The Vice President advised members that she had met media representatives on 30th 955(30) September 2003, to discuss the proposals. The Committee noted that the proposals

had been well received and that media representatives welcomed the opportunity to Ex.Off. view agendas. The point had been made, however, that sending Committee agendas G.O.S. to  media  representatives  was  time  critical  in  order  that  information  remained D.G.O.S. newsworthy.  The  Committee  discussed  the  difficulties  associated  with  sending L.D. agendas electronically in terms of both security and the fact that Committee papers

often originated from a variety of sources. The Vice President advised that Channel

Television had suggested posting agendas on their teletext pages.

It was noted that some States Committees already sent copies of agendas to the media and provided a summary of decisions following the meeting. The Committee, having noted that the Department of Planning and Building Services currently operated such an arrangement, suggested that the Senior Executive Officer contact officers of that Department to discuss the practicalities of operating such a system.

The  Vice President informed  the  Committee  that  all media  representatives were particularly supportive of that part of the proposition which empowered the Greffier of the States to ensure that all Acts recorded in the part B of the Minutes of States Committee meetings were properly exempt from disclosure in accordance with the provisions of the Code.

The requirement to make the model Freedom of Information Law, which had been identified by H.M. Attorney General, relevant in the Jersey context was discussed and it was noted that a law drafting brief would be required in order to facilitate this. It was agreed that the Executive Officer, with the assistance of the Greffier of the States, would produce the brief for the Law Draftsman.

The Committee approved amendments to the draft report and proposition and it was agreed that the Vice President would liaise with the Greffier of the States in relation to finalising the same.

Fundamental A7.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A10 of 19th September 2003, Spending Review received a report, dated 30th September 2003, from the Assistant Greffier of the 465/2(5) States in connexion with the 2005 Fundamental Spending Review.

1240/22(31)

The Committee recalled that its cash limit had recently been increased following the A.G.O.S. agreed transfer of specific budgets from the Finance and Economics Committee. It Ex.Off. noted that its cash limit now totalled £3,966,950.

C.I.Aud.

F.E.C.C. The Committee was advised that, following discussion with the States Treasury, it T.O.S. had been agreed that it should make a demand-led growth submission for 2005 in the

sum of £760,000 in respect of States members' expense and income supplement, based on the assumption that means-testing would be abolished and that all States members would claim the full amount.

The Committee noted that it was required under the Fundamental Spending Review process to identify five per cent savings proposals over the three year period 2005- 2007. This could be achieved either by identifying specific target areas from which the saving could be made or making a straight saving across all areas. The Committee was, therefore, being requested to indicate its preferred approach.

The Committee, having discussed the above approaches, agreed that it would prefer to identify specific target areas of its budget from which a 5 per cent saving could be achieved. It requested that the Assistant Greffier of the States prepare a report setting out various options on this basis. The Committee was advised that it would also receive a service analysis report for 2004 which would identify areas of potential savings at a subsequent meeting.

The Greffier of the States was requested to send a copy of this Act to the Finance and Economics Committee.

Migration Policy A8.  The  Committee,  with  reference  to  its  Act  No.  A12  of  30th  May  2003, (P.102/2003) - considered a request from Senator P.V.F. Le Claire to consider asking the Policy and request to provide Resources Committee to provide States members with the full legal advice given to full legal advice. that Committee on the subject of its Migration Policy (P.102/2003).

499/3(17)

The Committee recalled the circumstances which had led to Senator Le Claire's C.E., P&R original request. It had previously written to Senator Le Claire advising that it was P.R.E.O. seeking advice from H.M. Attorney General in relation to the issue of the conveyance P.R.C.C. of legal advice from Committee Presidents to members of the States. At that time the Ex.Off. Committee had expressed the view that, in general, the full contents of legal advice

should be disclosed rather than only part of the same.

The Committee discussed further the above request and, having recognised that this was an evolving issue, noted that it could not accede to Senator Le Claire's request at the present time. It was, however, of the opinion that if members were provided with a summary or extract of legal advice this should be made absolutely clear.

The Senior Executive Officer was requested to write to Senator Le Claire advising him of the above.

The Greffier of the States was requested to send a copy of this Act to the Policy and Resources Committee.

States meetings A9.  The  Committee  received  a  report,  dated  30th  September  2003,  from  the dates for 2004 Greffier of the States in connexion with the proposed meetings dates for the States 1240/2(63) Assembly in 2004.

G.O.S. The  Committee  agreed  the  following  dates  (which  were  in  accordance  with States (2) guidelines set out in Standing Orders) -

Ex.Off.

January 20 February 3 and 17 March 2, 16 and 30 April 20

May 11 and 25 June 8 and 22

July 6 and 20

September 14 and 28

October 12 and 26

November 9 and 23

December 7 & 8 (budget) and 14

The Committee requested that arrangements be made to notify States members of the above dates.

The Committee agreed that the matter of the need for additional dates should be referred  for  consideration  to  the  Working  Party  on  the  arrangement  of  Public Business.

Remuneration A10.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A4. of 11th July 2003, received Sub-Committee - the notes of the Remuneration Sub-Committee meeting which had been held on 2nd recommendations. October 2003. The notes had been prepared by the Greffier of the States.

1240/3(70)

The  Committee  noted  that  the  Sub-Committee  had  made  the  following Ex.Off. recommendations -

m e a ns testing - the Sub-Committee had recommended that a report and

proposition for the abolition of means testing be lodged "au Greffe" as soon as possible. The Sub-Committee believed that the States should be asked to agree that means testing be abolished with effect from 1st January 2004.

r e m uneration levels - the Sub-Committee maintained the view that all

members should receive the same level of remuneration irrespective of the position of responsibility held. The Sub-Committee believed that this was a matter for the States Assembly to decide upon nearer to the date of the introduction of ministerial government.

t er m  s of reference of proposed Review Body - the Sub-Committee

recommended that the clause in the terms of reference which required the Review Body to take account of the existing level of remuneration and expenses paid to elected members should be removed to enable the Review Body to assess the appropriate level of remuneration without being  required  to  take  the  current  figures  as  a  starting  point.  The Committee noted the exact nature of the proposed amendment.

T h e Sub-Committee had suggested that the review body meet in 2004 so

that it could make recommendation in time for January 2005.

p r o posed  membership  of  review  body - the  Sub-Committee  had

recommended that members of the review body be appointed after the States had agreed the terms of reference.

Having considered the above recommendations the Committee endorsed the same and agreed that a report and proposition, the purpose of which would be to abolish means testing with effect from 1st January 2004, should be prepared and lodged "au Greffe" through the intermediary of the Finance and Economics Committee. The Committee also agreed that a report and proposition should be prepared setting out the  terms of  reference of the  proposed review body. Members  agreed  that both propositions should be lodged on the same day so that members could appreciate the Committee's overall proposals on the matter of remuneration.

On a related matter the Committee received an oral report from the Executive Officer in relation to a meeting she had attended with representatives of the States Treasury in connexion with the issue of the removal of means testing and future proposals for the payment of States members income support and allowance payments. It was noted that a written report would be prepared for consideration by the Committee at its next meeting which would detail the discussions and outline the proposals.

Matters for A11.  The Committee noted the following matters for information - information.

1. c orrespondence,dated 13th June 2003, from the Honorary Secretary of the  Commonwealth Parliamentary  Association on the  draft  Strategic Plan for the Association for the period 2003to2007and the electionof the Treasurer;and
2. c orrespondence,dated 18th September2003, from thePresidentofthe National TrustforJerseyregarding Heritage OpenDay2003.

Date of next A12.  The Committee confirmed the date of its next meeting to be held on 17th meeting. October 2003 commencing at 9.30 a.m. in the Halkett Room, Morier House.