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SS/KAK/286 240
PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE (17th Meeting)
16th September 2004
PART A
All members were present, with the exception of Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en, Deputy J- A. Bridge, from whom apologies had been received.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier Senator P.V.F. Le Claire Connétable D.F. Gray Deputy P.N. Troy Deputy J.A. Bernstein
In attendance -
M.N. de la Haye, Greffier of the States
Mrs. A.H. Harris , Deputy Greffier of the States Mrs. S. Stoten, Committee Clerk
Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A and Part B.
Minutes A1. The minutes of the meetings held on 24th June, 15th July (Parts A and B) and
20th and 23rd August 2004, having been previously circulated, were taken a read and were confirmed.
Working Party on A2. The Committee received and noted the minutes of a meeting of the Working the Arrangements Party on the Arrangements of Public Business held on 28th July 2004 and considered of Public the trials of the closure motion and question time.
Business-
Amendments to The Committee recalled that the trials were due to expire at the end of October and Standing Orders. that amendments to Standing Orders would need to be lodged and debated prior to 1240/4(168) the existing temporary amendments lapsing. The Committee noted analysis of the use
of the new systems of question time and the closure motion and received an oral L.D. update from Deputy P.N. Troy , Chairman of the Working Group who had received
feedback from a variety of States members. The Committee noted that Senator S.
Syvret believed strongly that the closure motion severely impinged a member's
democratic right to speak in the Assembly but that a ruling from the Bailiff would
clarify whether it was Ultra Vires'. The Committee believed that the closure motion
had led to the Assembly being more disciplined but that simple conventions could be
highlighted in terms of giving advance notice of a closure motion. If the Bailiff 's
ruling proved to be in its favour, the Committee agreed it would support a permanent
introduction of the Closure motion and further recognised that sufficient safeguards
were in place to ensure the new system could not be abused. Deputy Troy apprised
the Committee that the closure motion followed democratic principles in as much as
members voted to move a closure via a majority.
The Committee was of the opinion that the new system was effectively and fairly controlled by the Bailiff and agreed to make the necessary changes to Standing Orders to incorporate the trials on question time and closure on a permanent basis and requested that the necessary changes were drafted by the Law Draftsman at the earliest opportunity on the basis of a brief to be prepared by the Greffier of the States. The Committee agreed that reference to voluntary compliance with the proposed Closure motion conventions s h o uld be made in the report accompanying the revised Standing Orders. Senator P.V.F Le Claire requested that his strong feelings be recorded that the Closure motion was undemocratic.
On a related matter, the Committee discussed the requirements for oral answers to be transcribed during States sittings as they were not currently recorded within States minutes. It was agreed that vital information was lost and that in light of the rejection of the Committee's amendment to the Resource Plan in respect of Hansard, an alternative recording method should be investigated.
Flat Screens in A3. The Committee received and considered a submission from Deputy R.C. the States Duhamel with regard to a request for an investigation into the cost and feasibility of Chamber – installing flat screens in the States Chamber linked to the voting system.
Submission from
Deputy R.C. The Committee noted that any screen would need to be of a considerable size in order Duhamel. to achieve an appropriate resolution for the voting results to be visible by members. 1240/22(8) Having considered the practicalities of the proposal it was agreed that the
installation would be inappropriate in such a historic setting and concluded to reject it on the grounds of cost.
On a related matter the Committee were minded to consider the future use of lap tops or smaller flat screens on members' desks and requested further investigation and consultation with the Bailiff .
The Greffier o the States was requested to take the necessary action to advise Deputy Duhamel of its decision.
Introduction of a A4. The Committee, with reference to Act No A5 of its meeting held on 15th July division bell in 2004, recalled that it had considered whether to introduce a division bell' in the the States rooms adjacent to the States Chamber and had agreed to consult with all States Chamber. members in order to establish a consensus.
1240/22(44)
The Committee noted that a balanced response had been received from members, of the fifty three members approached; thirty two had submitted a response, fifteen in favour and seventeen against with one member having no strong feelings either way. The Committee further noted correspondence from the Bailiff whose opinion had also been sought by the Committee as to whether he or the Deputy Bailiff saw any advantages to an introduction of the bell. The Bailiff had responded and highlighted his concerns that it could lead to unnecessary delay which would potentially prove irritating to members rather than beneficial.
The Committee concluded that the status quo should be maintained in light of the balanced feedback received from members.
Roll Call by A5. The Committee received an e-mail request from Senator P.F.C. Ozouf dated Exception – 13th July 2004 in respect of modernising roll-call.
request from
Senator P.F.C. The Committee noted that the proposal, if accepted, would result in an appel Ozouf . electronique' being called by the Bailiff during the commencement of a States sitting 1240/4(167) and the Greffier opening the electronic roll call using functionality of the voting
system. Members would then be required to press the P button on their desks and the Greffier would only read the names of those members who did not press the button. Members present would still have the opportunity to interject with malade' or absent de l'Isle' where necessary.
The Committee recognised the importance of efficiency and considered the proposal fully before deciding that it would favour the retention of the existing roll-call as it was not deemed too time consuming and also maintained some elements of custom and tradition in the chamber.
The Greffier was requested to draft an appropriate response to Senator Ozouf on behalf of the Committee.
Code of Practice A6. The Committee, with reference to Act No A7 of its meeting held on 15th July on Public Access 2004, received an oral update from the Deputy Greffier of the States in respect of to Official implementing changes to the Code of Practice of Public Access to Official Information - Information.
Implementation
of changes. The Committee noted that the Information Asset register had come into force on 8th 955(32) September 2004 and that the titles of some strategic and consultant reports had
already been provided by several departments.
The Committee was advised that the register was available on the States Greffe web site and included a sort facility for ease of use.
Remuneration A7. The Committee received an oral update from the Greffier of the States in Review Body – connexion with the Remuneration Review Body and recently held public hearings Oral update from which enabled members of the public and States members to make submissions to the the Greffier of Body.
the States.
1240/3(73) The Committee noted that submissions had been received by the Review Body in
which mixed responses and proposals had been considered. It was likely that the Body's recommendations would be submitted in October and the Committee looked forward to reviewing them in due course. The Committee further noted that despite the Review Body feeling somewhat restricted by its terms of reference, it was of the opinion that sufficient information had been received from various sources to enable a comprehensive set of recommendations being put forward.
States members' A8. The Committee, with reference to Act No A7 of its meeting held on 12th car parking December 2003, received and considered correspondence from the Environment and arrangements. Public Services Committee in relation to the issue of States members' parking 1240/9/1(115) arrangements. Items considered included letters dated 22nd July and 2nd September
from the President and Vice President of the Environment and Public Services E.P.S.C.(2) Committee, Act B3 of 1st July 2004 and Acts B1 of the 26th August and 1st
September 2004 of the Environment and Public Services Committee and a
comparative report prepared by the Greffier of the States in relation to the provision
of car parking for Members of Parliament in other jurisdictions.
The Committee noted that the Environment and Public Services Committee had agreed to offer States members free parking permits for public car parks as a temporary measure during which time it anticipated the Privileges and Procedures Committee would consider the overall position of States members' remuneration and whether members should pay for their parking with effect from 31st October 2004 following the closure of the Island site. The Environment and Public Services Committee stressed that it did not support States members parking free of charge in public car parks and considered it a matter for the Privileges and Procedures Committee and / or the Independent Remuneration Review Body to consider.
The Committee agreed that the Remuneration Review Body was not responsible for recommending whether or not States members should pay for parking although it was recognised that an annual season ticket would represent a total expense of approximately £950 per annum and that consideration should be made when the Body determined an appropriate level of expenses for States members in its recommendations. The Committee agreed that it was in the public interest that States members pay for the use of parking facilities but that issues of availability, security and accessibility would also need to be addressed. The Committee was of the opinion that it should advocate the use of public transport and highlight the environmental impact of increasing the number of free car parking spaces and ultimately the number of car drivers in the Island, in this respect, it believed the private sector should also address the allocation of free parking spaces to staff members.
The Committee further considered the proposition of Senator E.P. Vibert States Members' parking - withdrawal of provision P.152-2004' which requested the States to agree that the present provision of free parking for States members should cease.
Although free parking had always been available for members the Committee accepted that, with the abolition of means testing and the provision of an expense allowance to all members, it was no longer necessary to subsidise members in this way and, for that reason, the Committee believed that members should now pay for parking. Nevertheless the Committee believed very strongly that it was essential that a dedicated and secure parking area should be made available to members for parking to enable members to be able to be guaranteed a space when on official States' business. In addition the Committee agreed that steps should be taken in parallel with the removal of free parking for members to review the provision of free parking for States employees who benefited from this perk at many workplaces in the Island.
The Committee further noted that free parking was provided for parliamentarians in many other Commonwealth jurisdictions, the Committee's research might be of interest to members when debating the matter further.
The Committee requested that an appropriate comment in line with its decision be drafted in response to Senator E.P. Vibert 's proposition and that a copy of this Act be forwarded to the Environment and Public Services Committee for its information.
States of Jersey A9. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A4 of its meeting held on 24th June Law 200- 2004, received an oral update form the President with regard to a briefing held for all 450(1) States members on the draft States of Jersey Law 200- held on 8th September 2004.
The Committee noted that several members had attended the briefing which had proved useful in gaining an insight into their opinion of the new Law and its implications.
On a related matter, the Committee was apprised that Senator S. Syvret had proposed several amendments to the Law and had requested the opportunity to present them to the Committee in the near future. The Committee agreed that a meeting should be scheduled on the 5th October 2004 for this purpose and that Senator Syvret should be notified accordingly.
The Committee Clerk was requested to make the necessary arrangements.
Scrutiny – A10. The Committee received a delegation of Senator E.P. Vibert and Deputy J.L. Progress in last Dorey, Shadow Scrutiny Chairmen who updated the Committee on progress to date six months from on establishing Shadow Scrutiny and taking it forward politically in the previous six a political months.
perspective.
Senator E.P. The Committee received and considered a written submission from Deputy Dorey's Vibert and Panel and was apprised orally by the Deputy of observations he and his Panel had Deputy J.L. made whilst conducting their enquiries. Deputy Dorey praised the Scrutiny Officers' Dorey. professionalism and collective efforts in assisting his Panel. He stressed that in taking 502/1(15) on the role of Chairman he believed he would be a steep learning and very public
process that would nevertheless, have to be done right. The Committee noted that Scrutiny Deputy Dorey recognised the benefits of having two very different Panels and that he
had learnt a great deal with regard to improving procedures.
Senator Vibert outlined to the Committee the structure he had chosen to adopt within his Panel which included nominating key members to act as Chairmen at public meetings. This enabled the sharing of responsibilities and members could see different methods at work. It was noted that the Vibert Panel had encountered various difficulties in respect of submissions at public hearings, disputes of consultant advice and conflicts of interest declared by a Committee President. An enormous amount of work had been carried out over the previous six months and the Vibert Panel had found the services of a professional transcription company invaluable. Transcripts of hearings were available on the scrutiny website.
The Committee further noted the request of Deputy Dorey that training should be given to States members who intended to sit on a Scrutiny Panel, specifically addressing question and answer techniques and Chairmanship skills. Both Chairmen believed that a change of members' attitude had been triggered by the existence of Shadow Scrutiny. As a final observation, the Panel Chairman concluded that facilities and training for Shadow Scrutiny had been excellent but that in the future the Scrutiny rooms would undoubtedly prove to be too small.
The Committee thanked both Chairmen for their presentations and the work carried out by the Shadow Scrutiny teams to date, Senator Vibert and Deputy Dorey and withdrew from the meeting.
The Deputy Greffier of the States was requested to address the issue of future training for Scrutiny Panel members in conjunction with the Scrutiny Office. The Greffier of the States was requested to draft a letter to Deputy Dorey suggesting that his Panel utilise professional transcription services having proved valuable to the Vibert Panel.
Public Accounts A11. The Committee received a delegation of Deputy S.C. Ferguson, Shadow Committee – Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and Mrs L. Vince, Chief Internal delegation. Auditor who updated the Committee on work carried out by the PAC during the first 570/1(2) half of 2004.
Scrutiny The Committee noted the strongly held view of the Shadow Chairman that the independent members of the Committee were highly valued for their expertise and
contributions made to the PAC's investigations. It was further noted that the current membership would need to be expanded in the future as the workload was deemed too heavy for the current four member structure. It was also noted that the restrictions placed on Privileges and Procedures, Finance and Economics Committees and any President from holding PAC membership had proved appropriate given the nature of the investigations carried out by the Committee, and that this had also been
prescribed in the new draft States of Jersey Law.
The PAC were due to hold an away day' as the public hearing on training had been postponed, arrangements for a visit to the PAC of the States of Guernsey was also anticipated in the short term. The Committee recalled that it had agreed the appointment of a new PAC member and that a suitable candidate had come forward amongst States members, a proposition would be lodged in due course.
The appointment of a Comptroller and Auditor General was briefly discussed and it was confirmed that funds for the post would not be available until October 2005 and that the States Human Resources Department and the Appointments Commission would need to start preparatory work to develop a job description and recruitment plan.
The Committee thanked Deputy Ferguson and Mrs Vince for their joint update after which both attendees withdrew from the meeting.
Operational A12. The Committee received and considered a progress report prepared by the Development of Deputy Greffier of the States dated 11th September 2004 to provide an update on the Scrutiny – an establishment of Shadow Scrutiny from the Officers' perspective over the first six Officers' months.
perspective.
502/1(27) The Committee was apprised of the roles undertaken by the Officers and the Deputy
Greffier of the States which included administrative support, research, organising and Scrutiny preparing for hearings and resultant transcripts and notes. The Committee further
noted that final written reports were due to be drafted on each review, the first of
which was under preparation. It was noted that the Shadow Scrutiny Website had
gone live' and that training programmes for both States members and Officers had
proved successful.
On a related matter, the Committee was apprised of an issue whereby Officers required direction when reviewing transcripts of meetings with regard to the removal of jokes or irrelevant discussion during hearings. The Committee agreed this would be appropriate and that the Scrutiny Officers should apply accepted conventions where applicable.
The Committee noted the situation.
Resource Plan A13. The Committee, with reference to Act No A12 of its meeting held on 15th July and Hansard 2004, recalled that it had requested that an amendment be submitted to the 2005 amendment. Resource Plan in order that additional funds would be made available in the 1038/1/1/59(2) Committee's 2005 budget for the establishment of a Hansard system.
C.E., P&R The Committee recalled that the Resource Plan was debated by the States on 14th P.R.E.O. September 2004 and that its amendment was rejected. Whilst the Committee P.R.C.C. recognised that members were not prepared to adopt its amendment for more T.O.S. funding, they were sympathetic to the needs of the Committee to effectively and C.I.Aud. accurately record States proceedings although the timing of the request was more F.E.C.C. unpalatable than the principle.
The Committee agreed that it should pursue a positive response and assurance from the Finance and Economics Committee that funding would be made available for a Hansard style system by 2006. The Committee would therefore endeavour to find funding from mid 2005 if a commitment from Finance and Economics was identified.
The Greffier of the States was requested to draft a suitable letter on behalf of the President setting out the Committee's request.
In the meantime, the Greffier was requested to send a copy of this Act to the Finance and Economics Committee and the Policy and Resources Committee.
Machinery of A14. The Committee noted correspondence from the Business Manager of the Policy Government and Resources Department dated 19th and 23rd July 2004 in respect of the Reform - Machinery of Government Reform and general amendments to legislation. amendments to
Legislation. The Committee recalled that as a result of the States decision in September 2001, 1240/22/1(28) amendments were necessary to facilitate the move from a committee to ministerial
system of Government. The Committee noted the consequential changes to C.E., P&R legislation administered by the Policy and Resources Committee and further batches P.R.E.O. of legislation relating to the Housing, Education, Sport and Culture and the Home P.R.C.C. Affairs Committee.
T.O.S.
F.E.C.C. The Committee further noted that the Finance and Economics and Privileges and
Procedures Committee were invited to submit comments on the legislation before it was finalised no later than 30th September 2004.
The Committee gave full consideration to the draft legislation and agreed that it should be formalised accordingly. It was further agreed that it would not be necessary to forward similar amendments to the Committee in the future.
The Greffier of the States was requested to send a copy of this Act to the Policy and Resources and Finance and Economics Committees.
Liberation 60 A15. The Committee received and considered an e-mail request dated 1st September Sub-Committee – 2004 from the Chief Officer of the Bailiff 's Chambers regarding the temporary use of request for use of the media room on the second floor of the States building by the executive of the the States Liberation 60 Sub-Committee.
Building.
314/5(40) The Committee recalled that planning for the sixtieth anniversary celebrations of the
Island's liberation had commenced and that the executive of the Sub-Committee required an office to occupy between the present time and Liberation Day next year.
The Committee, mindful that the room was unlikely to be used for media purposes, authorised the use by the executive on the condition that the Sub- Committee would be responsible for any direct costs associated with use of the room such as telephone charges.
Allocation of A16. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A3 of its meeting held on 23rd April accommodation 2004 noted correspondence dated 7th September 2004 from the Bailiff of Jersey in the Royal addressed to the President of the Environment and Planning Committee regarding the Court and States allocation of accommodation in the Royal Court and States Building.
Building.
1060/5/1(27) The Committee recalled the ongoing issue of relinquishing a room within the
members' area of the States Building to accommodate the needs of the Jurats. The Bailiff had written to confirm that the Jurats had deemed the Members quiet room as inappropriate and that they would remain in their present accommodation for the time being.
The Committee welcomed a conclusion to the matter and anticipated the allocation of accommodation in the States building would be confirmed when the Environment and Public Services Committee re-issued its proposition in this respect.
Next meeting. A17. The Committee agreed that its next meeting would take place on 23rd
September 2004 in order to conclude consideration of the agenda.