PPC Minutes 28th October 2004

PM/KAK306.04 274

PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE (27th Meeting)

28th October 2004

PART A

All members  were  present,  with  the exception  of  Deputies  J-A. Bridge  and  J.A. Bernstein, from whom apologies had been received.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier Senator P.V.F. Le Claire Connétable D.F. Gray Deputy P.N. Troy Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en

In attendance -

M.N. de la Haye, Greffier of the States

Mrs. A.H. Harris , Deputy Greffier of the States P. Monamy, Senior Committee Clerk

Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A only.

Draft States of A1.  The  Committee,  with  reference  to  its  Act  No.  A2  of  14th  October  2004, Jersey Law 200-: considered a number of new amendments to the draft States of Jersey Law 200- amendments of (P.124/2004)  which  had  been  lodged au  Greffe' by  Senator  S.  Syvret  on  26th Senator S. Syvret October 2004. - comments. 450(1) Having recalled that it had previously approved its comments in respect of a

number of other amendments the Senator had proposed to the draft States of Clerk Jersey Law 200-, the Committee decided, as follows -

States (2)

Pub.Ed. Amendment No.

as it appears in

P124 Amd.(3):

(1)  t o remove the reference to unanimous opposition;

(3)  t o revise its comment so as to reflect the Committee's decision to support the amendment;

(17)  to revise its comment so as to indicate that the Committee would have considered supporting the proposal to insert a paragraph to provide that a  Minister  should  not  be  prevented  from  speaking  publicly,  etc.  in relation to, or of relevance to, his or her portfolio, had the amendment been drafted differently to include, for example, Assistant Ministers;

(24)  to comment that it did not support the amendment as it considered that it would unduly restrict the ability of the States to take decisions in the future about members' remuneration. Senator P.V.F. Le Claire asked that his dissent to the Committee's decision be recorded;

(27)  to delete from its comment the example quoted.

The  Greffier  of  the  States  was  requested  to  circulate  amongst  members  of  the Committee a revised version of the Committee's comments and, subject to no further matters being raised, to arrange for those comments to be presented to the States on 2nd November 2004.

Draft States of A2.  The Committee considered amendments to the draft States of Jersey Law 200- Jersey Law 200-: (P.124/2004) which had been lodged au Greffe' by Senator E.P. Vibert on 26th amendments of October 2004.

Senator E.P.

Vibert - The Committee considered that, whilst the issues raised by the Senator in relation to comments. the unelected members of the States were of considerable importance to the Island 450(1) and needed to be reviewed and discussed, it should be for the Special Committee on

the  Composition  and  Election  of  the  States  Assembly  (as  stated  on  the  Special Clerk Committee's proposition (P.171/2004) to consider the matter as part of the overall States (2) reform of the composition of the Assembly.

Pub.Ed.

The Committee noted that the President had written to all the unelected members notifying them of the impending review and that the Committee intended to move forward with this issue as soon as the debates on the draft States of Jersey Law 200- and the Composition of the States Assembly had been concluded. The Committee confirmed that it would take note of any views expressed during the debate.

The  Committee  decided  to  comment  on  Senator   Vibert 's  amendment  in appropriate terms and the Greffier of the States was requested to circulate amongst  members  of the  Committee  a  revised  version  of  the  Committee's comments and, subject to no further matters being raised, to arrange for those comments to be presented to the States on 2nd November 2004.

Draft States of A3.  The Committee considered amendments to the draft States of Jersey Law 200- Jersey Law 200-: (P.124/2004) which had been lodged au Greffe' by Deputy S.C. Ferguson on 19th amendments of October 2004.

Deputy S.C.

Ferguson - The Committee recognised that the Deputy 's amendment sought to provide that the comments. future Public Accounts Committee (PAC) would be composed of an elected member 450(1) of the States as Chairman together with a number of other members, half of whom

would be States members and half of whom would not be States members.

Clerk

States (2) Having recalled that it had discussed the proposed amendment with Deputy Ferguson Pub.Ed. in her capacity as Shadow Chairman of the Shadow PAC, together with Mr. T.

Dunningham, Chairman, the Committee agreed that it accepted the Deputy 's view that the non-States members on the Shadow PAC played a very valuable part in the work of that body and brought a range of skills and expertise that might not be readily  available  if  the  Committee  were  to  be  composed  exclusively  of  States members.

Whilst the Committee had some concerns about the inclusion of non-elected people in the work of the PAC, which could in future make far-reaching decisions about the administration of public finances, it concluded that the benefit that such members could bring outweighed those concerns. The Committee reiterated, however, that in the event that the amendment were to be adopted by the States, it considered that two conditions should be imposed, namely (i) that the members who were not States members should not have the ability to vote, and (ii) that they should swear an oath of confidentiality before taking-up their positions.

The  Committee  decided  to  comment  on   Deputy  Ferguson's  amendment  in appropriate terms and the Greffier of the States was requested to circulate amongst  members  of  the  Committee  a  revised  version  of  the  Committee's comments and, subject to no further matters being raised, to arrange for those comments to be presented to the States on 2nd November 2004.

States members' A4.  The  Committee,  with  reference  to  its  Act  No. 5  of  14th  October  2004, parking: discussed with Senator P.F.C. Ozouf , President, Environment and Public Services provision of Committee, and Mr. J.D. Richardson, Chief Executive Officer, Environment and alternative sites Public Services Department, the provision of car parking for States members.

on the basis of

payment to be The Committee heard from the President of the Environment and Public Services made. Committee that, in view of the imminent loss of the existing parking area for States 1240/9/1(115) members located at the rear of the Jersey Tourism building on the island site', it was

evident that alterative provision was needed. The Committee noted that the officers Clerk of  the  Public  Services  Department  had  identified  two  potential  solutions - both E.P.S.C.(2) involving the payment by States members for the special permit to be made available

to them upon request.

Having  considered  the  relative  merits  and  demerits  of  the  two  alternative proposals,  including  the  prospective  financial  cost  of  each,  as  well  as  the potential disruption that would be caused to the public who presently used the existing provision, the Committee agreed that it favoured the use of the northern area  of  the  Snow  Hill  surface  car  park  (12  spaces)  and,  if  necessitated  by demand,  the  basement  area  of  the  Sand  Street  multi-storey  car  park (approximately 23 spaces). The Committee recognised that both areas would be reserved for official use and that the cost to States members would be equivalent to the annual cost of the season parking ticket (currently £936).

The Committee noted that the Environment and Public Services Committee would shortly be asked to present to the States a report and proposition relating to the matter, and it was agreed that no press release would be issued until such time as a projet had been approved by that Committee.

The President of the Environment and Public Services Committee and the Chief Executive Officer, having been thanked by the President for their assistance and for their attendance, then withdrew from the meeting.

Shadow Public A5.  The Committee was apprised by the President of an approach which had been Accounts made by Deputy S.C. Ferguson, Shadow Chairman of the Shadow Public Accounts Committee: Committee  (PAC),  together  with  Mr.  T.  Dunningham,  Chairman,  seeking  the membership - removal of Senator E.P. Vibert as a member of the Shadow PAC.

exclusion of

Chairmen of The  Committee  recalled  that  the  States  had  previously  agreed  that,  during  the Shadow Scrutiny experimental period until the end of December 2004, the Chairmen of the Shadow Panels. Scrutiny Panels should be ex officio members of the Shadow PAC. However, both 570/1(2) Chairmen of the Shadow Scrutiny Panels had recently requested that they should be

permitted to relinquish that responsibility in view of the pressure of work arising Clerk from their Chairmanship of their respective Panels.

The President suggested that further consideration should be given to implementing the previously stated intention of creating a formal "Chairmen's Committee" in order that the Chairmen of the Scrutiny Panels and of the Public Accounts Committee might  be provided  with  a  forum  in  which to discuss  matters of mutual  interest relating to the work of their respective bodies.

The Committee, having recognised that, in any event, the situation would be due to be reviewed by the States at the beginning of the 2005 Spring Session, decided that the existing position should be maintained until then. The Connétable of St. Clement asked that his dissent from that decision be recorded.

The President was requested to write to Deputy Ferguson and Mr. Dunningham in appropriate terms.