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SS/KAK/85 172
PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE (1st Meeting)
5th March 2004
PART A
All members were present. The President was present for items A1-A9 and B1 only.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier (for a time) Senator P.V.F. Le Claire
Connétable D.F. Gray
Deputy P.N. Troy
Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en
Deputy J-A. Bridge
Deputy J.A. Bernstein
In attendance -
M.N. de la Haye, Greffier of the States (for a time)
Mrs. A.H. Harris , Deputy Greffier of the States
Mrs. S. Stoten, Committee Clerk
Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A and Part B.
Minutes A1. The minutes of the meeting held on 30th January 2004, having been previously circulated, were taken as read and were confirmed.
Appointment of A2. The Committee, in pursuance of Article 31(1) of the States of Jersey Law Vice President 1966, as amended, appointed Deputy J-A Bridge as Vice President.
Appointment of A3. The Committee approved the appointment of Deputy P.N. Troy as the Chairman and Chairman of the Working Party for States Business. The Committee further agreed members to the that Constable D.F. Gray should remain a member of the Working Party and that Working Party the existing membership would also remain unchanged.
for States
Business. The Chairman, mindful of the delays caused by recent changes to the Committee,
agreed that a meeting should be convened at the earliest opportunity.
Appointment of A4. The Committee approved the appointment of Deputy J.A. Bernstein as the members to the Chairman of the Remuneration Working Party. The Committee further approved Remuneration the nomination of Senator P.V.F. Le Claire as a member of the Working Party. Working Party
Appointment of A5. The Committee approved the re-appointment of Deputy J-A. Bridge as the members to the Chairperson of the Freedom of Information Working Party and also the Freedom of appointment of Deputy P.N. Troy as a member.
Information
Working Party The newly appointed Chair person updated the Committee on the Working Party's position to date and its remit to investigate secrecy, Human Rights and Data
Protection together with giving members of the public rights of access to official documents of the States. The Deputy Greffier of the States apprised the Committee on work to date and that law drafting instructions relating to a new Freedom of Information Law were in the process of being produced. Although initiated, the Deputy Greffier suggested the involvement of the Law Officers would be conducive and that whilst the adoption of a European model was being considered, the Working Party's next meeting should concentrate on specific requirements and objectives of the draft Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law.
In view of his active proposition on the introduction of a central register of all reports, Deputy Troy informed the Committee that he would be considering his position on bringing the proposition forward to the States and how it might fit in with the Working Party's rationale now that he was be a member. The Committee anticipated it would be updated following the Working Party's next meeting.
Simultaneous A6. The Committee welcomed the Bailiff to the meeting and with reference to Electronic Voting Act No. A8 of 30th January 2004 of the Committee as previously constituted, gave – draft further consideration to draft amendments to Standing Orders required to enable the amendment to introduction of simultaneous Electronic Voting. Standing Orders
1240/22(8) The Committee recalled it had approved the draft Amendment (No. 26) of the
Standing Orders of the States of Jersey and had anticipated a lodging date of 10th Bailiff February 2004. Circumstances had led to a continued delay as equipment had been Ex.Off. found to be faulty and had been returned to the suppliers. The Greffier was able to
update the Committee on a demonstration of the equipment at which he believed
the system was very impressive and would offer the States many benefits in terms
of time saving and efficiency.
The Bailiff requested the Committee's consideration on the proposed amendment to Standing Order 31B(7). The Bailiff believed that the purpose of introducing an electronic voting system was to save time during the States sitting and that the initiative could ultimately be a slick' process. The Bailiff raised his concerns by suggesting some additional minor amendments, in order to prevent any members unnecessarily slowing down the process. As it currently stood, the draft did not give the Chair means to prevent any unacceptable requests such as reading out the names of all 48 members who voted "pour" in an appel as opposed to only the three members who voted "contre" when the result was clearly in favour and would inevitably be available in print format in the members lounge.
The Bailiff offered two alternative additional statements for the Committee's approval as follows –
- a t the beginning of 31B(7) a comment be added to the effect, "with the leave of the Bailiff or presiding Officer and at their discretion, if deemed sensible,"
- at the end of 31B(7) an alternative comment such as, "and the Bailiff , unless it appears to him that such a request is an abuse of the procedure of the States, shall direct the Greffier accordingly."
The Committee agreed that the second option would cover a wider range of issues such as the over use of roll calls and that it was the most appropriate.
The Committee further agreed that electronic voting would secure a secret vote and prevent members occasionally being swayed towards a majority as was presently the case when members consecutively announced their vote.
The Greffier was directed to defer lodging the Amendment until the new system was installed and in working order and subsequently determine a suitable coming into force date.
Machinery of A7. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A3 dated 30th January 2004 of the Government: Committee as previously constituted, re-considered its response to the Report and Votes of No Proposition Machinery of Government: Votes of No Confidence in Individual Confidence in Ministers' (P6/2004), lodged au Greffe' by Senator S. Syvret on 20th January
Individual 2004.
Ministers
P.6/2004 The committee noted the draft comment and recalled the collective agreement 1240/22/1(34) reached with the Presidents of the Policy and Resources and the Finance and
Economics Committees to allow for Votes of No Confidences in individual Ex.Off. Ministers in the new Standing Orders and that, consequently, the draft article in the C.E., P&R draft States of Jersey Law relating to Votes of No Confidence in the Chief Minister P.R.E.O. or individual Ministers had been withdrawn. The Committee still maintained that P.R.C.C. Senator Syvret's proposition appeared to have been settled.
The Committee agreed that it would support the Senator's proposition and that a draft comment on Senator Syvret's proposition should be finalised as soon as possible. The Committee requested that the Greffier of the States make the necessary amendments to the comment on its behalf and that its decision be conveyed to Senator Syvret offering its formal undertaking that it would not seek to amend the article in the draft States of Jersey Law relating to Votes of No Confidence.
The Committee expressed its concern that the proposition would prompt an unnecessarily lengthy debate despite its assurances that the matter would be resolved when the new Standing Orders came into force. The Greffier of the States was directed to send a copy of this Act to the Policy and Resources Committee.
Draft Public A8. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A4 dated 22nd August 2003, of Finances the Committee as previously constituted, considered the Draft Public Finances Administration Administration (Jersey) Law 2004 and a request from the Finance and Economics (Jersey) Law Committee for its comments.
2204 – Future
funding for the The Committee recalled that two matters could not be resolved between the States Assembly Committee as previously constituted and the Finance and Economics Committee and Private during consultation on the draft Public Finances Administration (Jersey) Law 200- Members during 2003.
Propositions
447(1) Future Funding for the States Assembly – Those members of the
Committee who had served on the Committee as previously constituted, C.E., P&R recalled that the Committee had been asked to consider the matter of future P.R.E.O. budgetary arrangements for the States Assembly after the introduction of the P.R.C.C ministerial system. The Committee maintained that it was essential to find an F.E.C.C. acceptable mechanism to establish some form of budgetary independence for Scrutiny Off. the Assembly, this budget would include budgets for Scrutiny Panels, the Ex.Off. Public Accounts Committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General, the States
Greffe, members' remuneration and expenses and any actual running costs of
the States Chamber and members' facilities. The Committee recognised that
such areas might need protecting from undue interference from the Executive
and were concerned that the Scrutiny function might be potentially stifled by
restrictions being placed on available resources. The proposals in the Draft
Public Finances Administration (Jersey) Law would ultimately result in the
Council of Ministers being able to amend budget estimates of "Non-
Executive" budgets such as the Assembly, before they could be included in
the Annual Business Plan (Resource Plan).
Whi lst the Committee endorsed the need for adequate budgetary control,
particularly in light of the current economic climate, it wished to present an amendment to the proposed procedure as follows –
- t he Privileges and Procedures Committee would prepare the estimates for the States Assembly for the coming year and submit them to the Comptroller and Auditor General for comment;
- t he estimates, together with the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments, would be submitted to the Council of Ministers; and
- th e Council of Ministers would be required to place the estimates in the Annual Business Plan unamended, although it could lodge an amendment if it did not believe the estimates were appropriate – this would enable the States to take the final decision.
The Committee concurred with previous decisions and agreed that the States Assembly budget should be independent. The Committee directed the Greffier of the States to send a copy of this Act to the Finance and Economics Committee and the Policy and Resources Committee for its information.
Private Members' Propositions - The Committee recalled that the Committee as previously constituted had suggested that there should be a provision that would allow private members to bring spending proposals up to a fixed limit (£250,000 was considered). Although the Committee maintained the previous decision, it agreed to give further consideration to the matter at a subsequent meeting when more information would be at hand.
On a related matter, the Committee had very strong thoughts about the Fundamental Spending Review and the annual budgetary process, two areas, deemed appropriate for the Shadow Scrutiny Panels to investigate. The Committee agreed that the whole process undermined the supremacy of the States Assembly and its decisions. The Committee directed the Executive Officer accordingly in order that its suggestion be conveyed to the Scrutiny Officers.
Progress Report - A9. The Committee received and considered a report prepared by Mr. M. Haden, Shadow Scrutiny Scrutiny Officer, dated 25th February 2004, in connexion with shadow scrutiny Panels and Public progress and an update on forthcoming events.
Accounts
Committee The Scrutiny Officer was able to update the Committee on the recent Scrutiny 502/1(15) training for States members. The Committee noted that the end of States members
training marked a ground breaking step towards members continuous professional development. Feedback had been received from certain States members who felt they had learnt a great deal at the training sessions. The Committee noted that the Civil Service College had carried out and designed some of the training programme for Senior Officers with great success for which they were commended.
The Committee awaited the publication of the procedures and work programmes of the Scrutiny and Public Accounts Committee panels in due course but noted the progress made to date. The Committee noted that a forthcoming visit to the Scott ish Parliament and its scrutiny function would involve the Deputy Greffier of the States, Senator E. P. Vibert , Deputy G. P. Southern and Deputy R. C. Duhamel. The Committee agreed that a meeting should be scheduled between the President, Vice President and the Scrutiny and Public Account Committee Shadow Chairmen for to receive an update.
The Committee expressed its thanks to the Senior Executive Officer for all her efforts in respect of organising the Scrutiny Training and ensuring the long term development of training in this area.
Machinery of A10. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A3 of the Committee as Government previously constituted of its meeting held on 12th December 2003, received a Reform: report from the Senior Executive Officer, dated 17th February 2004, in connexion Ministerial with proposals for the recording and promulgation of Ministerial decisions under Decisions – the new system of Government, attached as an appendix to this Act.
recording and
promulgation The Committee was informed that the document had been published following an
1240/22/1(35) investigatory visit by the Senior Executive Officer and the Manager, Machinery of
Government Reforms, to examine the way decisions were recorded and C.E., P&R promulgated in the United Kingdom Central Government. The Committee noted P.R.E.O. that the matter was the primary responsibility of the Policy and Resources P.R.C.C. Committee but that its own interest had strengthened through its responsibilities for Encl Scrutiny and Freedom of Information and having assumed budgetary
responsibilities for the States Greffe.
The Committee recognised the importance of recording key' decisions, the definition of which had yet to be determined. The Committee noted that the report was not intended to consider the capture of day to day decisions or those of the States but those major' decisions resulting from the equivalent of Committee meetings today. The Committee agreed that the speed at which Minutes could be published was paramount and envisaged that an intranet medium might be utilised.
The Committee were apprised that although the States had agreed that Ministerial decisions would be officially recorded, agreement needed to be reached on the following matters;
- w hich decisions would be promulgated and to whom;
- w hat format the record would take;
- ho w decisions would be recorded and where the record would be kept; and finally,
- how decisions would be promulgated and to whom.
The Committee eagerly anticipated similar investigative reports in the future and hoped that it would be involved in further discussions in due course.
The Committee requested that a copy of this Act be forwarded to the Policy and Resources Committee in order that the importance of moving forward on this issue be impressed upon it and that the format of the minute pro forma in Appendix 2 of the report be officially endorsed and adopted. The Committee further requested that the Policy and Resources Committee kept the Committee updated on the progress by way of a comment in the first instance.
On a related matter, the Committee was mindful that the role of the States Greffe in relation to decision record keeping in the new system had not been recently considered and that this document would provide an opportunity for that discussion to take place.
States Building – A11. The Committee, with reference to Act No.A4 of 30th January 2004, of the Use of Members Committee as previously constituted, received a report prepared by the Senior Lounge / "Jurat's Executive Officer, dated 27th February 2004, summarising the position regarding Room" the request from the Bailiff to relinquish a room within the States Building to 1060/5/1(27) accommodate the Jurat's needs.
Bailiff The Committee was apprised of the difficult and sensitive nature of the request E.P.S.C.(2) The Committee was concerned that the development of the three new scrutiny Ex.Off. functions would make extra demands on the States Building facilities and that
existing resources would be stretched.
The Committee was of the opinion that it should re-inforce the previously constituted Committee' s request for a Members' Quiet Room and it re-confirmed the earlier view that a trial period of at least six months from 1st April 2004 should pass before it could consider the use of the rooms. The Committee recalled that the Environment and Public Services Committee was due to present a report and proposition regarding the allocation of States Building facilities and that in the event that that Committee wished to release the Members' Quiet Room for the use of the Jurats at this stage then an amendment should be proposed in line with this decision.
The Committee agreed that the newly elected President of the Environment and Public Services Committee should be informed of the history and current viewpoint of the Committee on this matter and agreed that the Vice-President should write to that Committee setting out the position.
The Greffier of the States was requested to send a copy of the Act to the Environment and Public Services committee for its information and invite its comments where appropriate.
States members' A12. The Committee, with reference to Act No. A1 of its meeting held on 20th remuneration: October 2003 considered a report prepared by the Senior Executive Officer, dated Establishment of 27th February 2004, detailing further applicants for the vacant members positions an independent on the newly established Remuneration Review Board.
review board.
1240/3(73) The Committee noted the applicants and that it had a number of options with regard
to its next steps as follows –
- t o interview each of the applicants to assess suitability;
- i nvite all / suitable applicants to be members of the Review Board;
- co nsider other options for recruitment; or
- i nvolve the Remuneration Working Party in the deliberations.
The Committee delegated the matter to the Remuneration Working Party to consider preparing a shortlist for the Committee's consideration at a subsequent meeting.
Amalgamation of A13. The Committee discussed the options available to amalgamate both the Special Privileges and Procedures Committee meetings with those of the newly constituted Committee on the Special Committee on the Composition and Election of the States. The Committee, Composition and whilst aware of the decision of the States when establishing the Committee that all Election of the meetings should be open to the public, was of the opinion that it would be practical States and the to hold consecutive meetings.
Privileges and
Procedures The Committee agreed that the first session of its normal meeting could be open to Committee the public to conduct business of the Special Committee whilst the latter would Meetings involve the agenda of the Privileges and Procedures Committee. The Committee 465/1(54) concurred that it had always adopted an open door policy and would be happy to
invite members of the public to observe and in the case of the special Committee, partake in discussions however, the Committee recognised that it might be difficult to effectively manage agenda items for both Committees and arrange for all meetings to be publicly announced.
Having considered the options thoroughly, the Committee was of the opinion that it would be impractical to hold joint meetings with the Special Committee on the Composition and Election of the States and agreed to proceed with separate meetings.
The Committee further agreed that the President should make a formal statement in the States notifying members of the next meeting of the Special Committee on the Composition and Election of the States. The Executive Officer was directed to arrange a suitable date and venue.
Items of A14. The Committee noted the following matters for information –
Information
- A ct No. A4 of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 30th January 2004, commenting on the introduction of a central register for reports prepared for States departments as proposed by Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade ; and
- A ct No. A5 of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 30th January 2004, commenting on the proposition of Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour in connexion with public rights of access to financial and other records.